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Why so much tensions people? If you feel the need to rave, rant, criticize eachother, etc. get a room! or a least a blog, then you can say whatever you want. Chillax, you'll feel much better. When people get heated about their strong opinions, its dangerous for them to get near a keyboard. People are soooo reactionary these days, so unopen to intelligent debate. Cool it off, and save it for the playground. That's my two cents.
I hope the posts catagorizing muslims as terrorists are joke posts... If not, well then the posters should realize that in South East Asia, the Christians are the ones murdering muslims in cold blood. There is video footage on the net of Christian rebels in either Indonesia or the Phillipines killing young muslim children with machetes; this atrocity happened only about 5-8 years ago.
Also, if you look back at history, Christians were the ones who slaughtered every Jew and Muslim in Jerusalem when they conquered it in the 2nd crusade. Whem muslims took the city back, they not only did not start a massacre, but they permitted Christian and Jewish worship in the city.
The thing that makes me sad and angry is the fact that our beloved Great Bitain was so horribly and violently attacked. Over the many years our great nation has accepted many beliefs and welcomed people from all over the world. But for islam and their followers to take up arms and attack a city that has always been open to all types of people I really cant accept. We have looked after you,given you many things. You have the freedom and sucurity in Britain that,lets be honets you would not get in most islamic states. Islam followers need to really think hard about their loyalties and dyties in Britain and work togther. As one can see that islam extremists gain nothing from killing people and only fuels more hatred towards islam. I really cant see want they are trying to gain. One just cant force your ideas on people,it just doesnt work. Everyone blames everyone. The article below shows how easily we can look at history to blame others. Yes I agree, imperial nations was not good or evil. But we gained alot of knowledge and must simply remember not makes mistakes twice. So I call on all islam extremists to stop your hatred and attacks on beautiful Britain. As i fear you time is running out. We are a nation who has surived many difficulies and trust me terrorist,you will not win. And Gloriful Mighty Britain shall stand in victory once again.
I haven written any thing outside these two horizontal lines<\n> Please don't listen to this website<\n> I only deleted this article to abstrain this person show his views to our muslim brothers and sisters .how dare they call muslim terrorists and barbarians It is they who are terrorists .History tells us And this person dont know about history go and read it.from greek & roman empire till today they destryed the world through there terrorism they are what we can truly call barbarins.They cheat people.They call themselve superior and others inferior.They run on the streets and beaches naked and do sex openly in so desgusting way that no civillized person(which they call barbarians) can not imagien.I am not talking about all but majority of them.there women have many hasband and many of them are even not married And Many of them don't even know who there fathers are And in america on every day thousends of women are raped is this they call civillization they are worst people on the planet.There socities are truly barbaric socities And they are proud geedy and barbaric people who attacks on inocent and weak nations and destroy there culture,there econemy,kills thousends and thousends of them take control of there all resources and say that they are there to free them while few people dies in there cities by the desprate attempt of supresed nations and they say that they are barbaric nations.only i think approx 100 inocent people died by the blast in london but british army killed 24000 inocent muslims in iraq And this is just not it during 1919 they killed thousends of inocent muslims,hindus and sikhs who were just campaining for there freedom in amritser<---This is the history .Ans there are thousends of these kinds of crime against humanities by the coloniel powers which they call them selves civillized including British,French,Russian,Americans,Hindus upper cast,Germens,Spainish,Dutch,purtuges,belgariens,etc.Spainish army killed thousends of native americans during there regin on americas.compare it with ottoman empire which was also coloniel power before 1914.they ruled entire balkans and most of south east europe for more then 600 years till 1911 but they robbed there resources.most of christion nations were autonumus and had total freedom.The people which converted to islam in these nations were by there own will not by force.if so today grecce,bulgaria,romania,hungry,silvakia,serbia,coratia,moldiva,montenegro,mecidonia would have been totly muslim today on ther other hand spain use to be multi relegious socity before 1492 but few years after it they are totaly catholic.the most of south america carabien and maxico was also turned catholic by force.this totaly explain that muslim powers were not greedy and they were extremly tolerent people And they did'nt attack weak nations like what westeren powers did to became strong.They only attacked those nations which were proud and greedy and dose'nt respect freedom of others.they attacked with there small and weak armies from 7th century till today and they were atlast victorious in every battle.They attacked great persian empire and reduced it to nothing.they attacked great byzentine empire and reduced it to nothing.but they never attacked ethopia which was also christion from very early time.They did'nt never attack china.they never attacked any black country.They did'nt enter subcontinent for expansion .They only enterned when they were attacked by the hindus.And even today majority of people of subcontinet are hindu.I am a pakistani and fofathers only converted when they were impressed by the muslims.similarly there are many examples.And the land which today USA stands which they are proud of was snatched by the inocent native americans.so it proves that it was them who are thives,fasist,greedy,hypocrates not muslims.
And you also say that islam has took freedom of women.but do you know that islam was the first religion who told that women are as equal as men but are different in many things.It was islam who allowed women to educate as much as they like and to inharite and to vote.And Allowed to marry by her own will to any men.compare it will western socities.women were never given a right to vote till the first world war.she was never given a right of education till the industrial age.And she is merly a toy of man.she is only free by name.it is a fact that most of the women is west are doing jobs to entertain man like music,dance,prosicution,sex and they all die in end in hell.While in islam women is given full rights but even men are not allowed to do these things.Even men are not allowed to show to much of there fleash,There is a thing called satter which is how much fleash is allowed to show in public by both man and women.but a husband can do any thing for her wife and a wife can do any thing for her husband in private but not publicly.but the hijab which you saw during taliban rule in afghanistan and in many parts of my country pakistan is totaly ignorance and how they interprate islam to not educate woman and to put her completly in house.But these are expections in all islam is a very tollerant religion and is freedom for every humanbeing..........................So the conclusion is totaly that these people who spread hate abuot other religions are hypocrate even al-qaida.There is a ayat in quran which says of quran that killing inocent human being is like this to kill the entire humankind.You can find this ayat easily in quran and it also says that woman has complete right to choose a man by her own will.And islam even says not to heard even animals.And do you know that we respect all the formar prophets of christionaty and judism as equal as Muhammad(PBUH) includeing Jesus Christ(AS),Moses(AS),Abrahim(AS),David and Soloman(AS),etc .Prophet muhammad(PBUH) says that dont make me superior then any other.You can also find this hadith very easily.And in islam we beleve that all prophets are muslims and even jews and christions are muslims they are only following wrong paths and there holy books are now curropt.
I added a link to the directories critical of Islam given under external links directories. The link was to www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm . It was deleted within a day. That is a shame. I did not edit any content of the page, nor added or subtracted any statement on Islam. The links provided by faithfreedom are more extensive than anything given under the directories listed under the external links. Faithfreedom is clearly anti-Islam and its links are to various critics of Islam. I find it absolutely unacceptable that the editors will censor to this level. Why cannot wikipedia tolerate links to faithfreedom's link page that is clearly more comprehensive than the other directories linked under external link? Perhaps the editors of the Islam page should not be biased muslims who have an agenda to beat the drum of their particular sect. Reading this disscussion page clearly shows that the malady of sectarianism within Islam has reached Wikipedia as well.
I just checked the link to the directory at dmoz and they list a total of 27 enteries that are critical of Islam. The rest are essentially links to islamic sites. Here is the numbers in the list at dmoz:
dmoz gives under opposing views of islam:
Ahamadiyya(32), Deendar Anjuman(2),Islamism(22), Nation of Islam(19),Quranites (1),Shia (3),Submitters (3),Sufism (13),Sunni(3) which are all sects of Islam and quite pro-Islam. I have gone to the various sites and found no contra views on Islam at those links.
The contra Views on Islam are listed by dmoz as:
Christian Views(20),Ex-Muslim(3),Hindu Views(3),Jewish Views(1).
Faithfreedom links to 74 sites on the page. There is perhaps an overlap of about four or five enteries between dmoz and faithfreedom. I am not interested in your or zora's or anyone's religion. The idea, I thought was to provide the readers the best information available. The issue is that the bickering on this page clearly tells us that there are plenty of sectarian issues within Islam and the contra-views of Islam are clearly a need to understand the passion being demonstrated. I provided a link that clearly has more contra views to Islam than the link given at dmoz, and that was deleted. I urge the editors to take another look dispassionately and restore that link. And look at the external links under Hinduism for a comparison. A few more links under Islam will not be madness, but far from it.
Farhansher, that sort of thing doesn't help. All we have to say is that faithfreedom doesn't get any special treatment. Rather than link directly to sites about Islam in general (except for academic sites and sites re non-controversial specific topics), we link to directories, which have the space and the mission to be completely inclusive. Anyone who goes to the directories will find ALL the sites. Zora 4 July 2005 07:25 (UTC)
Farhansher, it is your diatribes that are unencyclopedic. You will acheive nothing by ranting at people. As for "faithfreedom", by the title of that page,
it appears to be a site about Islamism? At first glance, it contains very cheap and sarcastic Islam-bashing, and it has certainly no theological relevance. You may attempt to argue for inclusion of the on Islamism, but probably the more appropriate place would be Islamophobia. Just like we don't link to pure proselytizing sites, we don't link to fearmonging sites. dab (ᛏ) 4 July 2005 08:23 (UTC)
The issue is not whether you agree with Faithfreedom or not. The point is that the link page at FFI has more relevent and varied links than at dmoz. Your argument that dmoz is more comprehensive and that there are too many links have been shown to be spurious. The external links under hinduism are atleast 4 to 5 times more than what they are under Islam, and the number of links at FFI clearly are more and varied than at dmoz. The bias of the editors is obvious and evident, and it is damaging to Wikipedia. You will not even tolerate a link to a page under External Links because you disagree with the sites point of view? That is not the function of an editor!! That is censorship plain and simple. There are many many people who agree with the pov expressed at those links as is evident by the number of sites and their readership, and you do not want to provide any link to them? Is that what an encyclopedia is supposed to be? Who is asking for any special treatment for FFI? Do the editors appreciate what is meant by contra-views on Islam? Do the editors appreciate what is meant by freedom of speech? If this attitude of censorship of Wikipedia gets general media attention, do the editors understand what the consequences will be for the credibility of this supposed encyclopedia? Too many people have put in too many hours to create this resource to be allowed to be "hijacked" by a few editors who obviously are having a hard time understanding the proper role of an editor.-Nickbee
The comments by FarhanSher are an example of an unbiased editor at Wickipedia? Is that representative of the quality of editorial comments here? Just curious? -Nickbee
Charles P. The policy is obviously not uniformly applied. I showed you the Hinduism page where the external links are directly to sites that are clearly proselytizing in nature. I am not linking to Faithfreedom directly but to a page that contains 74 links to contra-views on Islam. These links are not available to Wikipedia readers and you as an editor are not willing to consider whether they should be? You mention the other sites: Are there link directories at those sites? Are those sites already listed at dmoz? If not then they should be included. Who is asking for withholding of information? Why deny the Wikipedia readers access to information because you do not like the point of view being expressed there? Why the need for such petty censorship? Again I am not changing one line of information on the topic, merely linking to a page that contains links to sites that express contra-views to the topic and those links are not available at any other listing provided by wikipedia under the topic? If you know of sites that have directories that present links to pro-views on the topic and those links are not currently available, I would imagine that as an editor you should, perhaps must, include those links as well. Should a good encyclopedia not offer access to information that is available out there? Why the reluctance to include merely a link to a page that contains links to sites that are obviously well visited and that contain "contra-views" on the topic of the page? -Nickbee
Dab's comments make it perfectly clear that he is very familiar with Faithfreedom. So he visits it and knows about it, but he also feels entitled to deny the information about it to the readers of Wikipedia!! Is that not THE Definition of censorship? Who is asking posting the faithfreedom pov under Islam? But why deny an external link to a page that is obviously potent enough to rile a distinguished editor of wikipedia, and that obviously has significant readership? -Nickbee
(via edit conflict)
It is truly mindboggling. The professionalism of the editors as expressed by their language: "instead of squawking about censorship and withholding of information.". "Spare us the empty rhetoric."!! And all of this because of trying to get the editors to reconsider their decision on providing a link. No one is asking you to link to all the sites. You answered your question yourself about the other sites: "Yes, there are link directories on the sites I named, and yes, the sites (if not the link pages) are in dmoz.". There is no need for replication, is there? Now where in dmoz are the links given at faithfreedom? Those links are not available. Why is that so hard for you to understand? There are not infinite links to Islam out there. The contra views are not many, and that is why the collection of contra views of Islam at the link page at FFI is valuable. Your comment: "you're not linking to their front page, but you are linking directly to a page with www.faithfreedom.org in the URL, which is closely linked into the rest of the pages on the site. Word games." is indicative of your mentality. The entire Internet is only a few clicks away. Why have Wikipedia at all? Do you understand fully the logic of your statement? It really appears that the idea of providing information to Wikipedia readers so that they can get ALL sides of the information on a topic is not something the present set of editors grasp. Wikipedia is not British Encyclopedia, is it? It is an online Enclycopedia where people can edit and enter information. It is supposed to be better than the british encyclopedia. And you cannot grasp a simple and straightforward concept that providing a link to a page that has useful information is required for Wikipedia to be successful. But the agenda of the current spate of editors will not allow that!! Where does it say that Wikipedia "policy" is that links can only be provided by dmoz? Atleast they have the decency to link to FFI which you and your cohorts are unable to fathom that it is okay if NEW AND RELEVANT information is to be had there. I assure you that this will get more and more publicity and this issue will not go away. You guys are behaving as if you own Wikipedia and want to run it as a private domain. No one is allowed even to ask for a reconsideration! Amazing! -Nickbee.
"Wikipedia's success is not the issue." If that is not the issue then why such insistence in not allowing a good contra-view to the topic link in external links? What motivates the editors to such steely resolve? -Nickbee
Ah, the royal we comes out! "We do not consider it good"? Who is this we? Certainly not the dissenting editors? Or are you and your "cohorts" the Wikipedia? If you represent Wikipedia then I am sure it deserves little respect and possiblly cannot be gaining in popularity. So far it has demonstrated high handedness and arbitrary censorship. -Nickbee
No you cannot see much because you will not allow free expression. Second bombing in Europe and of course it has nothing to do with Islam according to the esteemed editors of Wikipedia who cannot bear to give open links to sites that question the ideology of Islam that is driving people every day to commit suicide and kill innocents. Muslims are doing a good job of showing Islam to the world all on their own. Keep protecting your tiny kindoms on the web. -Nickbee
and of course your site is the only one on the internet providing the insight that London was bombed by Islamist madmen, and not, for example the Wikipedia article, 7/7. Look, if you want to know about the religion, read Islam. If you want to see a discussion of crimes committed in the name of Islam, read Islamist terrorism, ok? These are different topics, that may be linked, but should not be confused. For the same reason, we don't have the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse article under the USA title, the Auto da Fe article under Christianity, the Armenian genocide article under Turkey, or the holocaust article under Germany (yeah, Godwin, I know). dab (ᛏ) 07:02, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
And ofcourse only an unbiased editor like yourself would immediately assume that FFI is my site. FFI is not my site. I read that site like I read any other. I never said that FFI is the only site that discusses Islamist madmen. You are the one that is preventing a link to links about Islam by people who are anti Islam. Again the links are to anti Islam sites and not particular events or themes. As I said you cannot see because you do not want to see. That is alright because as I said the muslims are telling the world about themselves. Which Evil Ideology was Tony Blair referring to in his speech? Where can one find about that evil ideology? Why does it keep getting confused with Islam that Blair and Bush keep telling the world that ideology is not Islam? Are there people who disagree with them? Are there reasons to beleive that Bush and Blair are wrong? Where does one find the link between Islam and that evil ideology? And why is it that so many muslims find it so easy to accept that ideology as Islam? Today 32 mostly muslim children were blown up in Iraq by one of those who " wants to sell his soul to Allah for paradise" (their words!). What is it in Islam that should allow so many suicide bombers ? And you are intent upon censoring links that present a different face of Islam. And you claim to see far? Keep enjoying your little kingdom. -Nickbee
You cannot suggest anything humbly because you are not humble. No need to be a hypocrite. I am not here asking for your understanding but pointing out to the editors here that they are acting as petty bureaucrats and refusing to even provide a link to information about Islam. Not Islamism not Islamist terrorism but Islam. Fascinating that the proclaimed "buddhist" editor will come to declare that "Tamil tigers have fielded more bombers than all the muslim groups put together"! Fascinating that an esteemed editor could demonstrate such fascinating knowledge? May we know the source, because I know enough to state that is totally wrong.
Or is this a type of built in bias that may be expected from the editors? You can keep denying that you do not censor, but your actions and your locked up page speaks volumes. Again you are unable to grasp that the issues are joined not by my interest but by the headlines of newspapers all over the world. People do want to know why so many suicide bombers can justify their acts are justified by Islam, why so many mufti's have sanctioned suicide attacks, and how come the western leaders know more about Islam than so many of the muslim scholars themselves? One of the reason obviously is that we have people in the west like the editors of wikipedia who are busy trying to censor and prevent people from finding information about Islam. -Nickbee
Is it not surprising that Wikipedia does not mind having a page on "Ali Sina" the ex-muslim behind FFI but the bureaucratic editors of wikipedia are unable to bring themselves to link to a good source that he provides? Becasue he is insane? Shouted down? Why? Interesting that it is people who know about Islam and probably are muslims, shias or sunnis who cannot seem to agree upon what should be on the page. And ofcourse a bunch of people who were born into Islam and have decided to leave it and claim that Islam is evil are insane!! But a westerner who is not a muslim knows better and feels entitled to judge and censor even a link to the x-muslims site where they provide links to a 74 sites supporting their views. But ofcourse they are insane!! And you feel entitiled to squash free flow of information to impose that judgement on wikipedia. And by your own admission, you did not know about FFI till it was brought up here, and you linked to it and decided in a few minutes that it is a hate site. People who overcame the fear of Allah and the penalty of death to renounce Islam do not know Islam. They may be wrong, but they do have the right to say that Islam is Evil. They would not have left Islam if they did not think that something was seriously wrong with it, now would they? But you reveal your bias when you state that the proposition "Islam is Evil" is enough to convict someone for insanity!! No wonder you do not grasp the concept of freedom of speech and free flow of information. The questions are being asked by people but wikipedia cannot provide good answers on Islam. Why? -Nickbee
Only a self righteous who is unable to see beyond his tiny domain would consider my request a whine. The irony is not even lost on you is it? Ali Sina can have his page but his views on Islam (not Islamism, not Islamic terrorism) are being censored and suppressed by intellects that are having problems grasping the notion of freedom of speech. Again I have not asked nor am I asking for a change in the content of what the editors consider Islam or its theology, but what I am asking for is a link to a page that voices anti-Islam opinions and the best directory that I know happens to exist at FFI, Ali Sina's website. So the issue is no longer that Wikipedia will not link to Ali Sina but the editors of the Islam page will not link to Ali Sina's page. Interesting! And you still call that this is not censorship and imposition of your own biases? -Nickbee.
This is what the esteemed editor Zora says in defending Censorship by refusing a link to anti Islam sites: "An interesting sidelight. The suicide bomber technology was pioneered by the Tamil Tigers, who have fielded more bombers than all the Muslim groups put together." and provides the source for this statement as "The source is a BBC article I just read, an interview with a professional security analyst asked about the London bombings: [5]. Zora 11:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)". Now the BBC article states: "Indeed the Tamil tigers are statistically the most successful and ruthless practitioners of suicide bombing". I assume the editor does not understand what statistically means. It does not mean that Tamils pioneered suicide bombing and it does not mean that Tamils have fielded more bombers than all the Mulims groups put together!! Is this reflective of the integrity of the editors of the Islam page? Or does this tell us about the level of comprehension that results in snap judgements and attempts at suppressing others POV?
-Nickbee
It is not a question of what I like or I do not like. You are an editor of the Islam page at Wikipedia. You made totally unsupported claims and then found some BBC article which did not support your claims. Now you find another article on frontline. I can argue about it, because Ron was even wrong in 2002 and he certainly is wrong today, but that is not the issue here .. is it? I am asking the editors to restore a link to a web page that contained 74 links to anti Islam sites, and that web page happened to be at FFI, Ali Sina's site. The editors first went into a superiority huff and have made the following claims to avoid acknowledging that their actions are arbitrary and an outrageous example of censorship:
FFI is an insane site but FFI is linked to by other pages of Wikipedia. FFI demeans the credibility of Wikipedia, but FFI is linked to by other pages of Wikipedia. FFI is a hate site but Ali Sina has been mentioned by Wikipedia as a personality of the times and he is an ex-muslim who has very strong views on Islam; Why are you attempting to suppress those views because you do not like them? According to the editors here anyone who says "Islam is evil" is obviously insane ... but the ex-muslims became ex-muslims and that is what most of them tell the world why they left Islam; Why are the editors insisting on implying that most ex-muslims are insane? Why will not the editors of the Islam page at Wikipedia allow a link to directory containing a list of anit-Islam sites? Keep your contents of Islam page as you like, but why deny a link under external links to a page at FFI because you do not like to hear or contempalate what Ali Sina has to say. That is censorship practically be definition. Why do the editors insist on defending this arbitrary excersise of abuse of power delegated to them as editors of the islam page? -Nickbee
Absolutely fascinating! You cannot come up with any real reason why to deny an external link. Courtesy of Wikimedia? I thought it was the courtesy of wikimedia that you are an editor of one of the pages. I am a "custormer". New York times does not pretend to be a Encyclopedia. I am familiar with paper encyclopedias ... are you? You or gren have not addressed the question that why do you insist on censoring information that is anti islam? No one is asking you to add any of Ali Sina's views in your article on Islam which you cannot even keep unlocked courtsey of dedicated Shias and Sunnis. But why do you not allow linking to a web page at his site that provides links to other sites that are anti Islam? Are you guys drowning in so much political correctness that you cannot see your own arrogance? -Nickbee
I do not care about which muslim gets linked or which muslim says what. Please link to any or all pro-Islam sites you like. It is they who cannot decide what is or is not Islam. I am merely asking why links to anti-Islam sites are being suppressed by the editors here. Why? Do you own Wikipedia? Are you an editor of even a minor fraction of pages at Wikipedia? So I think the decision of what Wikipedia should or should not do is beyond your pay grade. As far as I can tell it is the dedicated muslims themselves who are changing the content of the page and that is what has resulted in locking up the page. Why blame the ex-muslims? My hate site? Why does it bother you that ex-muslims call Islam Evil? Many ex-christians call Christianity evil. Are you emotionally unable to even allow a link to a directory at an ex-muslim site? The pettiness and the intellectual bankruptcy of the stance you "guys" are taking is becoming obvious. Keep it up so even the most avid poltically correct groveller will be able to see where you stand. Muslims may not know what is Islam, and are unable to agree on Islam, but you self proclaimed westerners certainly do, and know for certainity in a five minute evaluation that ex-muslims are evil and hateful. Whatever.
why is the article protected? I suppose that enough people are watching it to prevent inappropriate edits for surviving more than a couple of minutes? fwiiw, I do think some slight npoving is necessary. It is nobody's fault that the Islam-critical editors we get always seem to want extreme changes or insert cheap insults. Still, some informed criticism may be appropriate. E.g. the "Contemporary Islam" sections sounds a tad apologetic, beginning with "Although". We have established that there are indeed liberal Muslim organizations, but it is rather questionable whether they conterbalance Islamism in any way. So it would be better to have a brief section about Islamism, and then a brief section about liberal Islam, without attempting to excuse one with the other. dab (ᛏ) 5 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)
Even by taking data from General Sources, like CIA Fact Sheet, we can easily establish that fact that total Muslim Population in 2003 is 1.48 billion which is far greater than currently estimated 1.2 or 1.3 billion. Under general source section, we have taken all the datas from popular sources such as CIA Fact Sheet, HOLT,RINEHART & WINSTON etc.
We think that in some countries the total number of Muslims are more in percentage than shown in general sources, like in China and India. For all those few above cases Islamic Sources, news items and thought provoking articles came in great help. Our reasearch shows that the total Muslim Population is 1.70 billion in year 2003.
( http://www.islamicpopulation.com) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.187.63.91 ( talk • contribs) sometime.
How does that compare to adherents.com? Tom Haws July 7, 2005 23:01 (UTC)
Since it's hard to judge which claim is right, why don't we just show the range of the respectable sources, i.e. say "The Muslim population is estimated anywhere from 1.2 billion to 1.7", or whatever the range is.(---)
On 23 June 2005 I inserted this section:
Other meanings of the word
The word "Islam" is sometimes used as a man's name, for example
Islam Karimov (
president of
Uzbekistan).
Do not confuse with the village of
Isleham in
England.
and 3 minutes later someone removed it, stating this reason: "Other meanings" section not needed. It's pretty obvious info that does not need to be inserted. There are people named christian too but that isn't mentioned in the christianity article. Thanks.
But important words sometimes do have differing secondary meanings, and
Islam Karimov is notable politically.
And the page
Christian DOES have a pointer to
Christian (disambiguation), which lists assorted other meanings of the word "Christian".
Anthony Appleyard
17:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't Islam mean "Faith" not submission? (someone wrote)
The Arabic root s-l-m makes words with many meanings centering on "be safe", "submit", "surrender", etc. Its basic verb salama means "he became safe", "he is safe". Formally, the word 'islām is the infinitive of derived stem IV (= 4) of the root s-l-m; it means "submission". Anthony Appleyard 05:48, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, if necessary, we can have a page Islam (disambiguation). Today, "Islam" simply means Islam. By root etymology it can mean anything from 'faith' to 'sumbission' to 'feeling safe because God is your buddy', I suppose, there is no single correct translation. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a view as to whether the page still needs to be protected? It's been locked for nearly two weeks, so it should probably be unlocked some time soon. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:23, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
Can we unprotect yet? Maybe if the Islam-bashers give us a short break, we can indeed try to insert more material critical of Islam, as long as it is well-founded, and not hateful drivel. As soon as Islam-hyping editors try to insert their biased eulogies, I will immediately take the side of Islam critics. We are here for well-founded analysis, not for spin-doctoring (and no, FFI is not even 'spin doctoring', it's just cheap hate speech). As it is, the fundamentalists are preventing us from getting any serious work done on the article. I want to unprotect it and let them see how far they can get. Editing without consensus is pointless on WP, you are just reverted and hit the 3RR within minutes. Learn to cooperate and to 'write for the enemy', or sit back and watch. dab (ᛏ) 10:42, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay, as a couple of people want it unlocked, and as we're not supposed to protect pages for too long, I've unlocked it, so happy editing. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:52, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to enter any of the heated discussions about religion, just the population numbers.
The section toward the end "The demographics of Islam today" has some numbers that struck me as odd. The last sentence in the first paragraph reads "According to "The Almanac Book of Facts", the overall population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%.".
What is 'the overall population'? And what is 'the last decade?' This of course depends on when 'now' is. Also, what is the Almanc Book of Facts?
The number that set off alarms in my head was 137%. Surely the world hasn't more than doubles in 10 years! The US Census Bureau ( http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html) claims the world population in 1995 was about 5.694 billion, as opposed to 6.451 in 2005. That's an increase of (new-old)/old = 13.3%.
I'm not involved in demographics. But the phrasing of that paragraph, and the citing of a book I never heard of, caught my attention. Especially when online sources like Census are available, maybe one of them should be cited.
OK, now you can start flaming me!
yes, these numbers are obviously wrong. people here have been fighting over demographics for ages now. Population growth is in 3rd world countries, and I am not sure how prestigious it is for either world religion to claim a greater part of the starving masses. It is getting boring. Also, Farhansher, can you not just say according to whom Islam is fastest-growing, and leave it at that, since apparently the claim is disputed? Unless you do that, the article will never be stable. dab (ᛏ) 08:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Hey Zeno, didn't mean to be rude with my revert. But I just want to get a few things clarified. Firstly, if, according to the article, 70% of Albanians are Muslim how can the majority of Albanians are secular / atheist in orientation be true? Are you saying the 70% are only nominally Muslims or the stats are wrong? Whatever it is, it needs to be explained in the article (and a cite provided). and most of the remaining Muslim population adheres to a hedonistic Sufi order Is there a technical definition of hedonistic you are using here? If not, it seems pretty perjorative. I saw nothing in 'Islam in Albania' to explain the hedonist qualifier. Regards, Ashmoo 00:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, regarding the 'and other religion' section. I'm sorry if you feel I have introduced agologetics. I was only trying to remove the repetition and weasel words (however, it should be pointed out etc) that creep into WP articles. I'm surprised you think I'm adding apologetics as the only word I added to the whole section was 'medieval'. All my other changes involved removing repetitions. Also, I don't think I removed any info from the article. The closest I came was taking out some explicit mentions about idolators and the Quran. I'm happy to reinclude this. Ashmoo 00:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
can we have a discussion of why green is the colour of Islam, and maybe also a few words about Muhammad's calendar reform (if I got this right, he set prayer times to not coincide with with astronomical events (sunset, sunrise), so that the impression would not arise that heavenly bodies were adored (as was common over much of Arabia in his days)). the main article Islamic calendar isn't even in the Islam template. The prohibition of intercalary months has some political significance, since it was a matter of political influence which clan got to decide when they were inserted. The role of the new sickle moon should be mentioned, and possibly how it found its way onto Turkish flags. dab (ᛏ) 12:35, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
seeing that ffi.org is a site of an alleged apostate, I suppose the link could be added to Apostasy in Islam, where at least it will be relevant (and there are only two links there so far, so pruning is not yet an issue). I still think it is a hateful website, but as a compromise I think it could be added there (or a see also to Ali Sina). Insisiting to put it here is Wikipedia:Main article fixation. dab (ᛏ) 20:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a POV on Islam held by Ex-muslims and Apostates. Where is that expressed or mentioned on this page? Cannot the ex-muslims get simply an external link to a list of links? Why not? Why attempt to suppress their views on Islam? Personally I do not agree with their views entirely, but I do strongly believe that they deserve a link to their list. -Nickbee
The views of Irshad Manji, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Dr. Yunus Sheik, Robert Spencer, SecularIslam.org, etc. etc. views on Islam at a minimum need a link. Any criticism of Islam is labeled a hate speech here apparently. Apostacy is punishable by death and people are still being put to death for apostacy in muslim countries. So it is not surprising that many of the apostates do not want to be publicising there ID's. But many have. These people do have a point of view and it does need to be heard by people. -Nickbee
How about Robert Spencer, SecularIslam, Dr. Yunus Sheik, and others? Why not link to a list of links provided by Robert Spencer? A list of links to the POV of Ex-muslims is a useful addition to this article. You don't like FFI,fine, why not make a list of links to Ex-muslims and Critical of Islam and give that list? -Nickbee
it is obvious from your answers where your emphasis lies: who cares who converts to what or from what. Why not link to a list of links or provide a directory with a list of links to sites that has a list of sites that are in opposition to Islam. You just do not want to allow the POV of ex-muslims on the page of Islam. Why not add a section on the Islam page about what are the views of ex-muslims on Islam; ex-muslims like Ibn-Warraq, Salman Rushdie, Dr. Yunus Sheik, Irfan Khawaja etc.
gren, The ex-Muslim point of view on Islam is very special as far as Islam goes. It lays out the intent and the practice of Islam from a very special angle. They present the content of Islamic literature and history which is different than the views of christian, jews, hindus, buddhists, etc. who might choose to criticise Islam. As far as I understand they present the same facts as the muslims about Islam but they do emphasise it differently. It is obvious to me after watching some of the changes being added in and reverted on the contents of the page, that the sectarian view within Islam is very healthy and strong. There is no single "Islam" despite the pretense by some of the more established editors. There is the sunni, shia, Ahmeddiya, Ismaili, etc. etc. islam which emphasise different aspects of the scriptures and history. Ex-muslims present a different view of islam and its practices. Nickbee 18:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
seeing that the ffi link added by anonymous IPs, probably by one person ("Nickbee"), and removed by several established editors, it is very clear where consensus lies. Further adding of the link is in violation of policy. The various IPs should be considered on editor, and should be blocked for 3RR. Nickbee, if you create an account, you will at least be heard as one voice. You'll still be outnumbered, but you could look for a compromise. This anonymous edit-warring must stop, however, and I will take it upon myself to block the IPs for 3RR. dab (ᛏ) 07:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
gren, I am a newbie as far as wikipedia goes. I do not know how the various stuff works and what information is available and what the various rules are, but I am slowly learning. Thank you for telling me about the 4 tilda's. I will try it. A couple of the anon ip's are mine. It is because I do not remember to log in when I get to this site. Is there a way to automatically log in? But not all the IP's are mine. I counted about 9 IP's supporting the inclusion of the links critical of Islam. I urge those people to acquire an id. I am not very facile with computers. I am not attempting to cause any trouble, but I do strongly beleive that the Ex-muslims do have something valid to say about islam. I do not agree with everything they say. They have specific things to say about Islam and I wish some of them would contribute to the page under the section of Islam as seen by Ex-muslims. But that view does need at a minimum a link. You guys don't like ffi and condemn it as a hate site, but then how do I go about creating a directory at wikipedia where links to secualarislam.org, Robert spencer's site, Irfan Khawaja's site, irshad manji's site and all the other 74 links at ffi or the various links found at Robert spencer's site can be entered and then a link provided to that directory. If I am to be banned, I will be banned, but I was raised to have complete faith in free speech and the right of people with opposing views to be heard. Nickbee 18:01, 19 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Why do the editors of this page refuse to recognize that Muslim's who have left Islam have a very specific and particular view on Islam? Why is that view being totally and completely ignored here? Is the "hate" being expressed by the ex-muslims for Islam any stronger or different than the hate that the two sides of the abortion debate (the example given in the FAQ by wiki foundation to explain NPOV)? Many ex-muslims do express their rejection of Islam in very strong language but others do not? Zora has given an example of ibn Warraq as a scholarly ex-muslim. Even his take on Islam and questioning of Islam do not find a single line in this article. I have spent time over the last couple of days at Ali Sina's site. A lot of people here find it a hate site! it is a site that does not make any bones about that it considers Islam as Evil and holds the terrorism at present around the globe as a consequence of the teachings of Islam. If you consider those thesis as apriori evil, then FFI is a hate site for you. It is a site that has very very strong views on Islam and that is not hesitant to express it. Often it does not couch its criticism in a language that makes its message any easier to swallow. The point is not whether Ali Sina's site should be given a link or not. The point is that you cannot pretend that the view on Islam is complete in the present day world without considering the Ex-muslim's view on Islam. You can ignore it as you are choosing to do so, but that makes your encyclopedia incomplete and biased. Why is there a confusion between the "Evil ideology" that Tony Blair's government wants to fight and Islam? You want to hide that under Islamicism, and other side topics and pretend that islam has nothing to do with the those who are claiming that they are motivated by Islam and that they are the only true muslims. You pretend that there is no civil war going on within islam and there a people who are battling and killing around the world to win the hearts and minds of the muslims. Look at Zora's comments about the anon Salafi who edited the article yesterday! Why not acknowledge that the islam of the Salafi's is different from the islam of the Sunni's which is different from the islam of the Shia's? Why not allow these different views to be expressed on the islam page? Instead of trying to force a single view of Islam, why not take the NPOV guidelines into consideration and allow a disscussion of the different views of Islam? Nickbee 18:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Yes gren, look at how you treat shia Islam, sunni Islam, salafi islam, etc. You give a main page to Islam as if there is a "Islam" and then you branch off with links to these other pages. The history of Islam as discussed on the page is woefully inadequate. If there was a central acceptable version of Islam why do different sects keep wanting to change what wiki has decided is islam? You keep saying that Ex-muslims do not have special information about islam. But they do have a different interpretation just as the other sects of Islam do. This is all about interpretation is it not? Are you suggesting that all the writings of ibn Warraq do not provide any insight into what is Islam?
Nickbee
18:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Show one post that has been blocked at FFI. Show one person who has been silenced at FFI. Go to FFI and say whatever you like and see if you ever get banned or your post is deleted. Killing apostates is what muslims do everyday in the Islamic world. I am an apostate. I know.
A Kaffir
21:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC)A Kaffir
gren, I thought Ibn Warraq was an outside Scholar!
Zora, Look you do not like FFI, do not allow it, but there are a lot of links and books at their site that should be provided to people who want to know more about Islam. Tell me a way how the links that are on those pages can be provided to the readers here. What is so special about the link to a german site that gets prominance here? Zora you list being at Berkeley. Is this what you learnt at a University famous for Free Speech about free speech? I wish your class mates from Berkeley could see you now.
Farhansher: there is a page on AliSina on Wikipedia. So he is somewhat famous already. Ibn Warraq is an ex-muslim and is considered a scholar and has expressed fairly strong views on Islam and he is still anonymous because he does fear for his life and he has been threatened inneumerable times. Irfan Khawaja was anonymous till very recently and he has published and written on Islam extensively. Being anonymous as an apostate of Islam is not something that discredits a person automatically. Many of the apostates do have families back in Islamic countries where they would be at risk if their apostacy becomes public. I am not trying to defend Ali Sina here, but I have seen testimonials from ex-muslims on his site thanking him and praising him. He does have an audience. As far as I can tell, A. Kaffir is correct, that they do make a big deal about never censoring and/or banning anyone over there. There is a lot of material posted at that site from muslims themselves apparently. Whether you like it or not, the actions of muslims themselves have brought islam to the attention of the general people in the West. UK is suddenly considering making a control list of muslims not allowed in UK similar to the one that exits in USA. One does not have to agree with a word that is said by Ali Sina or his site, but he has a right as far as I can tell in Canada and in the US to say what he does. I am not sure whether European laws would allow him to write the way he does. Europeans apparently are not as strong sticklers for free speech as we across the Atlantic. I am no psychiatrist but an apostate perhaps never really leaves his childhood faith truly and perhaps that explains the nick A. Kaffir? I though Kaffir was not a hate term but an accurate description of one who is not a christian, a jew, a zorastrian, and also not a muslim. I thought there was Sura in the Quran titled Kaffirs.
I still think and believe that some mention of the views on Islam by any of the more well known ex-muslims and links to material by them ought to be part of this page. By insisting on excluding them completely, you are not being neutral about the topic at all, but definately being a partisan. Nickbee 02:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
NPOV on Islam!! LOL! Second bombing in London and Jihad under Islam at Wickipedia: "Striving to seek God's approval (Jihad)" Gimme a break! Jamiat-ul-Islamia could not have a better propoganda page than Wiki's page on Islam. And Gren will tell you that Ex-muslims know nothing about Islam. What a farce! Thankyou for Islamofascism, Nickbee. Couple more bombings and a few hundred dead in Europe and then .... Exmuslim 16:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
Cleaned up the languate surrounding that link (needed to be clearer what it was) but it's NOT a "hate site" as certain POV warriors seem to think. If you disagree, please discuss it in talk before reverting. Existentializer 16:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Zora from Berkeley should love this one. Iraqi women are protesting the new constitution because of the non-existent rights for women under Islamic law Shareeya, and Wiki page on Islam has only one mention of Women: "Muhammad gave rights to women ...." LOL!! This is the NPOV of Wiki? And Ex-muslims do not know anything about Islam, Gren? And Zora the buddhist is busy enforcing suppression of Women under Islam. Is that a new Zen Koan? Exmuslim 17:01, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
Todays Asia Times states:Fighting the uncivil fight. European Union officials, not to mention Europe-wide public opinion, are starting to confront a very serious question: how to fight jihad inside the EU without infringing on civil liberties, thereby playing into the jihadis' hands. -"This message is the final warning to European states. We want to give you a one-month deadline to bring your soldiers out from the land of Mesopotamia." - Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, July 16 What fighting Jihad? You mean someone wants to fight "Striving to seek God's approval?" LoL! Wiki's NPOV? No, No, hide the if and buts in sublinks and sub pages. On the front keep the "Striving to seek God's approval" and "rights of Women". Italy after August 16? Or will it be Denmark striving to seek God's approval in 3 weeks time? Exmuslim 17:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC) Ex-muslim
Todays Christian Science Monitor: "Some of the people tell you Islam is a religion of peace because they think that then you'll want to convert," says Dublin-born convert Khalid Kelly, who soaks up Abu Osama's sidewalk sermon. "But you cannot possibly say Islam is a religion of peace; jihad is not an internal struggle." "How dare anyone come on television and say suicide bombings are not part of our belief?" And a lot more on how Brits are going to get killed by other brits, and Gren and coterie tell us that Ex-muslims know nothing about Islam. How are the people ever going to understand Islam and what it is doing? That does not concern the dhimmis and Islamofascists at Wikipedia. Hate? Europe has not seen hate yet, but it is beginning to. Ask the Indians, they will tell you about hate. Ask the arab christians, they will tell you about hate. NPOV at wiki on Islam? LOL! Exmuslim 18:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
This from this weeks Time Magazine, Irshad Manji, an Ex-muslim speaking: "The student shifted uncomfortably. She just couldn't bring herself to examine my suggestion seriously. And I suppose I couldn't expect her to. Not when Muslim leaders themselves won't go there. Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general for the Muslim Council of Britain, is an example. In the midst of a debate with me, he listed potential incentives to bomb, including "alienation" and "segregation." But Islam? God forbid that the possibility even be entertained.
That is the dangerous denial from which mainstream Muslims need to emerge. While our spokesmen assure us that Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism, those who commit terrorist acts often tell us otherwise." NO NO NO, what would an Ex-muslim know about Islam that Wiki on Islam does not already explain! Link to an Ex-muslim POV ..... Hate hate hate Site, But the 600 suicide bombers of Iraq, the dead in England, the killing in India .... that is not hate. NO not hate at all ... that is "alienation" that is "segregation" that is "marginalization"!! Islam ... Oh that is ever so a peaceful religion. LOL! NPOV of wiki? Ex-muslims have no POV on Islam says the Edddditors. Exmuslim 19:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-Muslim
Wiki policy states talk out the differences under "Talk". But no one chose to respond to obvious NON-NPOV stance of Mirv, Zora, Grenavitor, Yusuf, and Faransher (have not seen dab lately) who insist on imposing their POV as the only one that exists. "One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists By Anthony King (Filed: 23/07/2005)" from telegraph.co.uk. How misleading can be "Islam does not say anything. People say things about Islam" : Grenavitor. Taqqiya all the way, but the body bags are starting to tell people that islam does say things that you all are busy suppressing here. But not for long. Read Andrew Bolt at the Herald Sun in Australia: "It's time we accepted the difficult truth: many of the Muslims we invite to live in Australia want to destroy us. FOR four years, since the September 11 attacks, I've begged our Islamic leaders to drive extremists from their mosques. For four years I've also reassured you that most Muslims here are moderate...." Read it all. Islam does say things, Gren. What it says is just not very pretty. Exmuslim 18:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-Muslim
Respectfully disagree. BrandonYusufToropov 16:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC) And I respectfully tell you that you are utterly wrong Yusuf. Exmuslim 16:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
An anon added a passage to the section on Islam and other religions by saying, in effect, "yes, but sura 9 was revealed after non-Muslims had been picking on the Muslims". The section is just a pointer to the main article, and not the place to go into apologetics -- and I also think that many traditionalist Muslims wouldn't agree that parts of the Qur'an should be ignored because "that was then and this is now". Just adding that one sentence is lame apologetics. Perhaps the anon could go to the main article on Islam and other religions and make sure that his/her point is expressed there. Zora 07:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Hello I can't see where else to put in this comment but describition of Sikhism in the Islam and other religions is factual incorrect in terms of what Sikhs and scholar of Sikhism have evidence for. Sikhism what not born out of a schism between local Muslims and local Hindu communities, nor can be described as the "sword arm of Hinduism". Apologies if this the wrong place to post. Otherwise can we sort this out this whole dispute people big hug !
[ [3]]
Looks like a different anon. BrandonYusufToropov 15:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
In fact, I think any and every article about a controversial subject should have such a section or companion article. Islam certainly qualifies.
I think the "house of war" and the Islamic distinction between civilians and combatants, if any, as well as myriad other subjects, are worth presenting here.
side note: there are many logical absurdities proffered on this page, but one above stuck out for me, the idea that an editor is "proven" biased because he's interested in criticizing one historical figure (in this case a Muslim one), but not interested in criticizing others (in this case, non-Muslim ones).
That's blog-logic, not real logic. It's a common error that seems only to be trotted out against a certain subset of ideas. There are many books that criticize Christianity and its history, in fact it's a cottage industry. No one ever accuses the authors of bias just because they don't devote equal time to the criticism of Jews and Muslims.
Wiki Editors are not interested or "Burnt out", I cannot say which, but they have not bothered replying to Ex-Muslims objections on ignoring Wiki's NPOV. Unwilling to consider any objective view on Islam, considering the "Western" view on Islam as anathema, their righteousness declares the voice of Ex-muslims as "hate"; which neatly fits into the muslim law of silencing the Apostates one way or the other. The all knowing Wiki's editors are enforcing the silencing of Ex-muslims and their views. Terrorism is associated with Islam at present, and there is not a mention of that on this page of Islam. Ali Sina's voice is to be suppressed by Muslims like Grenavitar at any cost. If Ali Sina is correct on Islam then suppressing his voice is a crime. If Ali Sina is a paranoid then who cares. One in 4 muslims in the West hates the West, is that a lie as well? A Kaffir 19:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)AKaffir.
It still needs to be addressed and allowed to continue........people who would seek to know more about Mohammed and Islam are entiteled to have access to the very type of criticisms that may arise, due to the fact that the 7th century critics no longer exist and their story can not be fully explored, it makes good sense to allow these criticisms to re-emerge for seekers of information about Islam to compare the issues that existed in yester-year and in today's world. Islam's Quran is not a closed book, nor is the issue of criticism that it appears is a larger part of it's very reason for existing a closed matter. Mohammed may have deemed the matter closed/locked-thread with his "revelations" and "final word of god", not so those who would seek to continue their "revelations" of opinion and criticism, some on hehalf of their ancestors who may well have been targets of quran's punishing guidances. As we have muslim editors here at Wikipeadia who might seek to silence the critics of Mohammed and his Islam, in affect a form of emulating 7th century doctrine and practise, so too we have people here who take the other view as was the case in 7trh century Arabia. Question is, what are the muslims here so afraid of in being so apparently obstinently persistent in seeking to silence the critics? (unsigned by 211.27.142.217)
People, please sign your talk-page posts!
Ok, for those who don't remember or wasn't around: There was an article on this. It was created back in 2002 but was deleted quite recently, on June 18, 2005. See (but don't edit) the debate on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Criticism of Islam. The content of the article the last months was just an intro reading:
That was all the content after almost 3 years of revert-wars and bickering on the talk-page. And then there was a long list of external links to various web sites. I was the one nominating it for deletion on June 5, for which I not only was flamed for being a Islamist (I'm not a muslim, trust me...) but also accused of having invited my islamists friends to vote (I don't even know any muslims). Anyway, I still stand by my nomination. But after seing some other and actually quite good "criticism" articles on other topics, I'm not completely against it myself if it can be made NPOV and encyclopedic. But at the very least come up with some lasting agreable "criticism" content in this, the Islam article, first before thinking about spawning it out to it's own "criticism" article again. If people really feel like going for it I sugest using this talk-page to come up with and agree on content (content, not just links) to avoid further revert-wars. Shanes 08:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
. . .has lead to protection of the article. Discussion here doesn't seem to be moving towards any kind of consensus and has gone far off the track. I've put up a summary of past arguments and a recap of the two views on the faithfreedom links on Talk:Islam/External links; if we concentrate on the discussion there, maybe we can reach some kind of consensus. If not, then perhaps it's time to hold a poll. — Charles P. (Mirv) 16:01, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Nickbee 17:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
While it's true that there are various "islamic" views, many of the overstrict views are clearly wrong and unislamic, and need not be in this article. Saying that these views need to be represented is like saying that the Nazi and KKK views must be represented in the Christianity page. They really don't.
Robert Spencer's "Jihad Watch" is racist and xenophobic in the extreme. Is it really appropriate to have it link to the Islam page?
It is not racist and xenophobic at all. Why don't you give an example of Robert's racism and xenophobia? You should be able to find something from his extensive site and books. Please give an example. If you cannot then don't slander.
The city of Qom is by far one of the holiest places for Shiites, this city should be added to the "Holy Cities" section.
thank you
Hi guys
Well every question has an answer , as there is no effect without causality .
The answer is right here , see for your self .
As you might have guessed , this is the tip of ice berg . A lot is going on , under cover . Being the followers of a cult , they dont show their intentions . This is why they use PM & not talk about it on forums now . These so called good faith editers are running a whole Project Wikipedia to attack each & every page associated with Islam . This has been happening under our noses for not less then 6 months , & now its officially made a project .
There was a thread there which has been deleted by Sina . So for the benifit of all sane thinking people , I have added these threads to WP , so that if some muslim hacks FFI , & by some coincidence only these threads are deleted ( as Sina says ) , then these will be present as an evidence on WP .
Now ,
I was also thinking for some time what happened to all venom spitting Sina-philes , & why are we now having some decent looking people wanting to add their links to WP . Well that is also in the Sinan recommenddations of "How to attack WP" . U can all see Zeno's edits at Muhammad , & Jihad . The pressure to add a picture of Muhammad , pressure to add cresent as a symbol of Islam , Pressure to call Jihad bin nafs some mythical concept popularised by Sufis . Still in Jihad article , Zeno has changed " Ibn taymia, scholar of classical Islam " to " Ibn taymia , The classical, militant scholar of Islam " . Dont you think he could have easily changed to "Ibn taymia , the founder of Salfi thought in Islam . " Do you think its coincidence , or lack of knowledge......nooooo , its called Agenda .Similarly nickbee , who just came here , saying he doesnt accept all that Sina says , but has has written lenthy posts pressurising to add their link . Would any body who doesnt care waste so much time on adding links , He also brought two well known trolls from FFI to back him up . May be its the new strategy , work in clans , one carrot two sticks , & a lot of anon IPs .
If we dont do something , these attacks will occur again & again , week after week , month after month . Its a big waste of time & energy . When I came here , I wanted to add some info about mysticism here . I havebeen here for 5 months now , I have done nothing yet . Why ?? each time I log on to the site , I see Islamophobic cyber terrorists , wrangling to add a picture of Burraq ( like its gonna improve the Quality of article ), or to add a huge unverifiable list of Muhammad's slaves . All in the sugar coating of freedom of speech , childern , fairness , Npov etc . When nothing works they come back to their roots , rants & insults , & the favourites include "appeal to freedom of speech" again . This is going nowhere .
Its now very easy to understand , pename , aldowi , wibidabi , peterchahabi , enviroknot , hate islam , urchid , clt fn , zeno of elea , extensliser , nickbee , a kaffir , ex muslim , Qasim666 .....................& lots of anon IPs , now you guys know where they are coming from .
Any ways , My recommendations ,
The choice is ours to make !!!!
Peace Farhansher 20:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
This is paranoia. Do you intend to block all who support letting the Ex-muslims express their view point? Are you planning on making it a litmus test that anyone who posts at FFI cannot contribute at Wikipedia? You charge me with deception; did you bother reading the post by Qasim where is posting the letters by SlimVirigin from Wikipedia?
[20] I was blocked as well. Qasim apparently is a well meaning supporter of FFI, and he does question Islam's fundamentals. You can and obviously do beleive that Jihad means "cleanse oneself spiritually" and not "holy war"( aka kill all infedils ), but hopefully you are willing to accept that there are many muslims who do include "holy war" as part of the meaning of jihad. And I do not agree with Ali Sina's site or all his opinions. I would be a brainless idiot, if I did. But I do not consider his site to be a "hate site". Qasim felt safe enough to go and post his frustration there right away. Did you notice that it was his first post at that site? It means he expected to find "kindered spirits" there. That is the strenght of free speech, atleast in the good ole USA. Do you seriously think that you are going to be able to restrict the opinions of those questioning Islam and its connection to current events as being reflected in the writings of many many authors and journalists around the world away from wikipedia? What kind of an encyclopedia would that be?
Nickbee
20:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I don't understand why we have to put up with this. Wikipedia clearly has a policy to remove Personal Attacks. Farhansher's accusing any number of editors of being part of a "mass conspiracy" clearly qualifies. Will someone explain why this section has to remain? Ni-ju-Ichi 03:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I find this Ali Sina "conspiracy" to be very intriguiging. So much so that I have started my own "conspiracy": SIIEG (pronounced "siege"), the Secular Islamic Information Editors' Guild. Please join! -- Zeno of Elea 03:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gren, ABC is not a source for Islamic Information, and I never intended to give it as one. I wanted to show that we live in an environment, in a time, where certain aspects of Islam are being highlighted and I tried giving different sources to demonstrate. The vandalism by those who are unable to participate in a dialog is also clear. The point is that an Encyclopedia needs to give unbiased information to all sides. It cannot and must not ignore one side merely because it is not comfortable. When the secualr muslim is writing in a London newspaper and saying that there are no "moderate" muslims, why cannot we accept that there is a view of islam that is being put forward by the secualr muslims and ex-muslims. What is that view? Why do we have to hide it? Why cannot we acknowledge it? You cannot dismiss the secular muslims, the ex-muslims as two bit nobodies. I have never suggested quoting Ali Sina or using him as an authority. He has a directory of links and a directory of books that are useful sources. Do you consider Taslima Nasrin as a two bit hack as well? How about Salman Rushdie?
Nickbee
04:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Thank you at least acknowledging that there is a view that represents secular muslims and ex-muslims. Now to the question, what it is: Why not let them speak for themselves? Have you visited Taslima's site? You tell me what would be a good way to include their view on Islam? You think keep ignoring them is the way to go? As the writer from london says that they are opposed by muslims, and hence lable them as Kaffirs and exclude them from islam? Is that the way to go? It is not tit for tat, excluded islamic sites and hence no contra islamic sites are to be included. That is not logic at all. That is mere stubborness. Nickbee 04:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zora, please please try to listen. I hear you but I do not think you are listening. The directories you link to do not give links to views Contra to Islam at all. As Zeno stated it puts some of the contra sites 4 clicks away. It is not an issue of "even-handed-ness", it is not a question of favorite site. It is a matter that there is a strong POV of Islam that is dumbfounded by reading on Wikipedia Islam's page that Jihad means "striving to win God's approval" (please read ex-muslims comments; although I do not agree with his over the top sarcasm) or excluding mention of "holy war" for instance. The DMOZ directory can hardly be called "anti-islam". Again, FFI is not my favorite site. Please look at yourself; you guys are behaving so clubby and unwilling to listen to any "outsider". I was charged as a sock puppet and blocked. Apparently so were the others. You are now convinced that I am from FFI. I have told you before and I tell you again, you do not like FFI, fine but what about the 70 odd links in the directory at FFI. Where should we put them so they can be linked? You dismiss FFI as a hate site and do not want to link to it. But look at the news, listen to the leaders around you, listen to the people around you, and they are saying things about Islam that you do not want to even link to let alone suggest that they exist. Please read the link to the Muslim who wrote in the london press. What kind of Islam is he talking about? Why does Wiki's page on Islam pretend that that aspect of Islam does not exist? You are pretending that secular muslims like ibn Warraq do not exist. This is what ibn Warraq says: "The jihad that the Western world faces today is identical in its motivations and goals to that which Europe managed to stave off almost a thousand years ago thanks in large part to the Crusades of which the West is now ashamed. In this book, Robert Spencer tells the truth that few in the U.S. or Europe wish to face. Today's jihad, as Spencer illustrates here, is proceeding on two fronts: one of violence and terror, and another of cultural shaming and the rewriting of history. Here is a devastating riposte to that revisionism -- and a clarion call for the defense of the West, before it is too late." -- Ibn Warraq, author of Why I Am Not A Muslim and editor of Leaving Islam and What the Koran Really Says. On the christianity page, there is a link to Russels, "Why I am not a christian", but on the Islam page your club is bending over backwards to avoid stating the known criticism of Islam. Not one word from Warraq's "What the koran really says"!! How come? Please think carefully and listen to what I am saying. Have you read Warraq's "What the koran really says"?
Nickbee
05:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Excellent. So do I. I am not religious as well. But I do not despise you in the least because of it. Do you understand what "cultural shaming and the rewriting of history" Warraq might be talking about? Page-blanking and ranting crowd are self defeating idiots from which ever site they are from. I have now spent some time at FFI over the last few weeks, and I assure you that they have their share of nuts as well. Anonymity does seem to bring out the flamer in many a young hot blooded kids for some reason. Where will the section on Contemprary Islam go? Please let me know if I can be of any help in putting it together. Please, please do think about the "anti-islam" links on the main page and take a little time to look at the DMOZ list and see how inadequate it is to represent the secular islam's POV. Nickbee 06:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
ok, so now we know all these anons doing nothing but add the ffi link are not sockpuppets, but editors-by-proxy coordinated via the ffi forum. Guys, you are in good company. the Neo-Nazis tried a very similar stunt some time ago, to "remove pro-jewish bias". Guess what, wikipedia hasn't turned into an antisemitic hate site. Strangely, decent good faith editors are not known to have resorted to such tactics. So what we'll do now to put an end to this is a poll. See Wikipedia:Voting. The poll shall be open for ten days, and close on 6 August, 7:00 UTC.
dab (ᛏ) 06:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Despite having voted earlier, this poll is invalid.
From Wikipedia:Voting: Consensus must be reached about the nature of the survey before it starts. As we have seen, Dab did not ask for a consensus on anything before creating the poll, and he is now engaging in striking through the votes of real editors on entirely arbitrary criteria.
This is bad faith and the poll is invalid. Existentializer 15:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Please keep comments short with no sub-comments
do you think the Islam article in "external links" should link to http://faithfreedom.org/
Wynler 21:47:48, 2005-08-04 (UTC)
do you think the Islam article in "see also" should link to Ali Sina ?
____________
In order to speed things up, I have decided to withdraw my objections to the poll and have reverted the talk page to before the dispute began. -- Zeno of Elea 10:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
If anyone thinks that cancelling user votes because of the number of votes, or scaring away newbies by blocking them and asking for personal information, and then trying to go through the motion of a poll is going to resolve anything, allow me to let you in on common sense: it is not going to work. All this will result in is more bickering, intensive bickering, and enhancing passions all around. Think about it. A genuine compromise and adopting a real wiki NPOV attitude will not hurt. The rest is up to you. It is obvious that Wiki will eventually have to adopt some kind of a real editorial control on the Islam related pages. That is good, because then they will answer to some "real" interest groups. This page will not continue to read like a dawa pamphlet for very long. Nickbee 05:32, 7 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
well, once we have a "critics" section in see also, and we are swamped with links to notable and respected critics, we can still unlink Sina. At the moment, it is true that there are not too many critics mentioned. Sina is rather a parody of a critic, and his smearing probably does Islam more good than harm, since I doubt he makes an impression on anyone not already violently anti-Islamic. Anyway, bring on the links to more notable critics. dab (ᛏ) 07:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Muslim women are awra. They are objects of shame.
" "Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrat). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten."[Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy'a ] Awra is pudendum, something to be ashamed of, something to hide. Pudendum is female's external sex organ. That is what Muslim women are according to Muhammad.
When I see a normal woman, I see a human being. When I see a Muslim woman, all I see is a big genital walking. She acts as if her entire body is a vagina that has to be hidden, protected, because it is an object of shame and embarrassment. How can you be proud of this image that you portray to the world? "
He is quoting a hadiath, a statement by the son in law of Muhammad. Keep in mind that this is cultral where men are supposed to eternal erections in heaven and women are ten female genitalia. I have not taken the trouble to find whether is qoute of the hadiath is accurate or not, but I would bet that it is. So you see it is not he who is saying that women should be covered from head to toe in body bag, but he is putting it in context for a muslim that he is communicating, trying to get through the cultral assumptions with shock value. What do you think of women under the Taliban rule where if the cultral police could see a woman's ankle under that "Burqha" or body bag when he knelt or laid down to examine if she was properly covered, she could be in for a severe beating for "exhibitionism"? How would you explain such absurd and obsessive behavior? What do you think when you see women covered in "body bags" hiding in the shadows? So I do not have a problem with Ali Sina's statement of 96% vagina in the context that he is making. What is that you are objecting to? He is talking to his constituency, in the language that he thinks is most effective. He seems to be on the side of liberating women and getting muslim women into the modern era, and not trying to keep them enslaved and covered in body bags. Please tell me if I am missing something here? Nickbee 17:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I am glad that the link to the ffi main page seems to be out of the picture, that was what started the whole mess, after all. If there is a simple majority favouring the addition of the ffi links page, I'll be happy to add it. I am considering moving my vote to abstain as a gesture of good faith, since the ffi links page isn't so much worse than the dmoz one after all.
dab
(ᛏ)
19:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure about some of the yes votes. Surely there can be an Opposition to Islam article, and we could link it from the see also, plus, the ffi link would be much less controversial there. Yes, if there is Opposition to Mormonism, there can also be Opposition to Islam, no question about that. But note that this is not the Opposition to Islam article. Sure, all povs belong on WP, but not all websites, WP is not a linkfarm. I am not objecting to the link because it is critical of Islam. I am objecting because it is too vitriolic and unacademic. This Sina is really too wound up in his hate and frustration to know his ass from his elbow, let alone criticism from slander. Maybe if we had a good, decent "Criticism" section, we wouldn't need to argue over such things, and I wouldn't need to be called names by our esteemed Islamophobic editors for objecting to this particular link.
what does it tell us that we have so many outspoken critics of Islam, going to the point of obstruction to have their way with the ffi link, while none of them has seen it worth their time to compile a decent Opposition to Islam article? What does that tell us about their dedication to the Wikipedia project, or their notion of encyclopedicity. You want your views represented? Write articles about them, don't troll existing articles of marginal relevance. Once you have finished your critical articles, ask for links to them here. dab (ᛏ) 07:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
re, goose and gander, there is one link under "Criticism" on Christianity, an essay by Nobel laureate Bertrand Russell. If we restrict the Criticism links to Nobel prize winners here also, I would have no objections whatsoever. Oh wait, then we wouldn't have any links at all. Well, at least we should restrict links to essays of quality and decency at least remotely approaching Russell's. dab (ᛏ) 08:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Dab, your criticism of Ali Sina is a little warped. You do not disagree with his stands but you disagree with his "presentation" to his audience? He is talking to muslims in general, and in particular those who hate the west. So he discusses things in a way that might be addressing their fears and their icons, and not trying to be manipulative by trying to be friendly, sweet and sugary. Because he does not address himself to "your" academic standards, he is not a fit spokesperson for the entire secular muslim community? You certainly have a definite view of what is appropriate in this world, and little room for doubts? I have searched and I did not find a call to murder, violence, bomb, destroy, kill, maime, segregate, etc. by Ali Sina. By your criteria, Muhammed whose Islam this page is covering, should not be covered because he is one who said the women are 10 "awrat", now low class can you get? How do you tell the followers of a prophet who was not pleased with some because they were not beheading the vanquished kaffirs with enthusiasm, about the facts of their prophets life, as he sees them? Especially if you took a life time to shake that belief yourself? I think your objections to FFI being "low class" are your own bias and hangup. It is not your POV but the POV of exmuslims and secular muslims that needs to placed on the Islam page. Again I do not care whether you link to FFI or not; as I stated figure out a way to link to the list of links given by FFI for anit-islam or list of links provided by Spencer to 'anti-islam' sites. I do find it amazing that a significant fraction of those who call themselves muslims (and gren look at the YouGov survey by Anthony King that Exmuslim cited) support a mass muderer Osama, and support terrorism, and a site that opposes them and questions their ideology is the site you find objectionable because it does not meet your literary criteria? Nickbee 18:19, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Gren, the issue is not whether "YOU" find ffi encyclopediac standard or not. The issue is that ex-muslims and secualr muslims is a movement within Islam that finds it hard to be in the open because of the harsh "death penalties" imposed upon those who attempt to question Islam from within the muslim community. You necessarily end up with few "weird" souls who are willing to risk their lives. That is why Ibn Warraq identity is not known. That is why Dr. Yusuf Sheik did not voice his apostacy while on death row in Pakistan for 3 years. That is why Ali Sina is anonymous. So you tell how should this encyclopedia reflect that and provide a voice to that segment or variety of Islam on the Islam page? It is obvious that the muslim editors will oppose providing a voice to the secular muslims. At the moment, whether we like it or not, the ex-muslims and the secular muslims voice is clearest at FFI. Go ahead give me a reason why do you call it a hate site. Dab does not like it because it is "low class". It obviously does not have the "blue blooded accent" of academicians. What is your objection? Has FFI backed violence, segregation, nuking, etc.? A congressman of USA just recently suggested that mecca should be nuked. Does that mean wikipedia should not link to the US congress? What is it that you find so overwhelmingly objectionable to FFI? Remember we are here to report and not take sides and judge. We report what is Islam and not what we want it to be or what its supporters want it to be. I do not like FFI but I am not willing to support squelching the voices of the ex-muslims and the secular muslims. Nickbee 18:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
Is this poll fair? I was called a sock puppet and blocked from editing, and I had to actively pursue getting unblocked. I notice Qasim666, an ex-muslim, was also blocked and he was not a sock puppet. He could have been a contributor on "Islam" had he been given an oppertunity. Similarly, I notice that A kaffir, and Billal were blocked after having been charged as sock puppets. I have no clue whether they tried and were unable to gain a voice here or not. But anyone who attempted to support FFI links was automatically considered a sock puppet. The bias is clear. So perhaps before this poll concludes, we should clear up the bias against FFI, a mediocre site at best. We do not have to like FFI to recognize it as a legitimate site of secular muslims and ex-muslims. What are the criteria by which Wikipedia decides the worthiness of a site? FFI is not porn site. It does not support mass murder. It does not support Al-Qaeda and its mass murder ideology. Where are the rules according to which we are to judge the worthiness of FFI as site? Nickbee 18:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Why is my vote crossed out by you, DAB? Exmuslim 22:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim Not much of a chance to contribute so far. I tried engaging but no one cared to answer under NPOV. SlimVirgin wrapped my knuckles for unacceptable language. Now my vote does not count? Real open system, I say. Looks very familiar .... Islamic democracy? Exmuslim 22:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim
dab, if Wikipedia is not a "link farm" (as you claim) and if the Islam article is not an appropriate places for a link to a directory of websites that are critical of Islam, then why do we link to the DMOZ Islam direoctyr, which lists every manner of apologetic Islamic websites? Let's be clear here - this is not a debate over whether or not to include a list of websites that are critical of Islam, this is a debate over WHICH list or lists to include. If it were a debate over the very existance of a link to a critical website directory, then you should have made your poll about whether or not to delete ALL links to ALL website directories. Instead you SEEM to be advocating merely deleting all links to all directories of websites that are critical of Islam (a clear double standard). --
Zeno of Elea
01:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that's an utter misrepresentation. The situation is:
As far as I'm concerned, a single link to dmoz would be enough. However, we add a gartuitous link to the anti-Islamic subsection, to accomodate anti-Islamic editors. I see no reason to add the ffi links link on top of that, beyond a desire of the people frequenting that site to drive more traffic to it. dab (ᛏ) 10:26, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
DMOZ contra link subdirectory is not good enough and that has been pointed out by zeno before. I was asking for one lousy link to a list of links on an ex-muslim site so the views of secular and ex-muslims could be represented. The fact is that the page does read like a pamphlet from your friendly imam. I think [User:Shanes] advice should be heeded: "That was all the content after almost 3 years of revert-wars and bickering on the talk-page. And then there was a long list of external links to various web sites. I was the one nominating it for deletion on June 5, for which I not only was flamed for being a Islamist (I'm not a muslim, trust me...) but also accused of having invited my islamists friends to vote (I don't even know any muslims). Anyway, I still stand by my nomination. But after seing some other and actually quite good "criticism" articles on other topics, I'm not completely against it myself if it can be made NPOV and encyclopedic. But at the very least come up with some lasting agreable "criticism" content in this, the Islam article, first before thinking about spawning it out to it's own "criticism" article again. If people really feel like going for it I sugest using this talk-page to come up with and agree on content (content, not just links) to avoid further revert-wars. Shanes 08:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)" I had requested the link to the directory of links at FFI to give a voice to the secular and ex-muslims viewpoint. I have been stating it again and again that personally I don't give a hoot for FFI or a link to it. Requesting a mere lousy one link to the voices of secular and ex-muslims was the minimum that I thought would not be begrudged by the editors of wikipedia. Obviously I was wrong. The choke hold of the information being supplied by the editors on Islam is biased and far from a NPOV policy of wikipedia. Providing a link or not providing a link will not stop the bickering as Shanes already points out. I think his suggestion to come up with an agreement on the CONTENT and not just the links ought to be taken up. Once the content has been decided, the links will become irrelevant. In that spirit, I am starting the suggestions for changes in the content of the page. Nickbee 17:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
As there is a marked tendency of ex-Muslims to be opposed to Islam (much greater than the tendency of those who convert between Christian faiths or away from other faiths) a section of notable ex-Muslims might be in order.
How about we start a list of names who may or may not be worthy of being on the list?
Ali Sina
Walid Shoebat
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Feel free to add more as they come to mind.
Existentializer
16:43, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq
Anwar Sheik
Dr.
Yusuf Sheikh
Salman Rushdie
Taslima Nasrin
Irfan Khawaja
Nickbee
17:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Adding the terrorists and Saddam would be like going to Christianity and showcasing the Dominican Order, which "saved" Spain through the torture and murder of millions. Or the masterminds of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, led by the Catholic church. Or even better, the multitude of "heroes" who orchestrated the Siege of Jerusalem (1099) which left not a single person alive, man, woman, child, Jew, Muslim or Christian. Not recent enough? How about Adolf Hitler or the Ku Klux Klan?
Still think there's a trend in Islam that's not in Christianity? If you feel the need to exact justice, go put all these on the Christianity page, which right now is lacking in negativity. Or is your justice only applied to religions you don't like?
Don't take my comments as negative to Christianity, which is a religion I love. Just using it to make a point. Cunado19 16:48, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
To get the topic rolling:
Please add your suggestions in a constructive and helpful way. We can make this page the best page on Islam available at any encylopedia. Nickbee 17:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
" Striving to seek God's approval (Jihad). See Also Jihad Notes: The Egyptian Islamic Jihad group claims, as did a few long-extinct early medieval Kharijite sects, that Jihad is the "sixth pillar of Islam." Some Ismaili groups consider "Allegiance to the Imam" to be the so-called sixth pillar of Islam. For more information, see the article entitled Sixth pillar of Islam."
on jihad and the only sentence containing the word women is "Muhammad's insistence that women have God-given rights that no human being may legally infringe upon." And that is it!!! No one finds that absurd?
Look at the link I have given for Jihad, and it is from the muslim students in Canada, and it is by the founder of Muslim Brotherhood and he is calling it the sixth pillar of Islam. Taliban called it the sixth pillar of Islam. The note suggesting that only the Islamic Jihad group and a few long-extinct is just plain inaccurate. Mawdudi is also on record in calling jihad the sixth pillar. Islam is what it is. We should tell the facts as they are. Why cannot we do that?
I am not suggesting that the Islam page become a topic on Jihad or Women in Islam but a couple of sentences that address the topic in a forthright manner and with a link to the subsidiary page. What is wrong with that? Then you go to the page on Jihad and you find there is no mention of Hassan Al Banna, Mawdudi, Qutb, etc, the people who defined what jihad is as being practiced by Al-Qaeda. What is wrong in asking for and expecting an honest and straightforward view of the proponents and of the critics laid out clearly and succinctly? Nickbee 04:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
besides websites that I consider hilarious, but less-than-academic [25] ("Attack of the Mujahid Tomatoes"), well, the Internet may not be the best place for that (there's books, remember?), but what about this: [26], [27]. It's biased, it knows it is biased and it is lucid, coherent and doesn't indulge in ranting. Can you believe it? Rational criticism, no ranting about pedophilia or evil moon cults, or sinister armies of haters of freedom. Critics of Islam: more like this, please. dab (ᛏ) 17:49, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
[copy-paste of ffi links section by 65.144.45.127 ( talk · contribs) removed]
Hi!
I wonder if this guild is anything that you may benefit from, and in that case, feel invited to sign in :)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild
Have a good day :)
-- Striver 01:37, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, I wrote a new section on contemporary Islam. It's way too long, but I'm too tired to try to cut it down. Let's see what others think of it in its current form. Still needs some wikifying and a list of terrorist incidents (I didn't know the exact titles of the articles). Zora 09:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Most contemporary Muslims still live in Muslim-majority countries. Many of these countries recognize an official relationship between the state and the Islamic faith, though the details of that relationship vary dramatically from country to country. Mosque-state relations run the gamut from Turkey (an aggressively secularist country) to Iran (where the state is run by the Shi'a clergy). Some of the countries that grant a special status to Islam are still relatively tolerant of other faiths; others, like Saudi Arabia, forbid the practice of anything other than the official Wahabi (or Salafi) faith.
There are also some countries, like India, where there is a sizable and long-established Muslim minority. All these countries are part of the old Dar-ul-Islam, the Muslim realm.
Muslim life and belief in the Dar-ul-Islam, the world of Islam, is shaped by centuries of tradition. In many cases, that tradition is heavily Sufi-influenced. Traditional Islam often consists not only of Fridays at the mosque, but also of pilgrimages to the shrines of Sufi saints, membership in traditional Sufi orders, and the leadership of Sufi teachers.
This syncretic, tolerant Sufi-influenced Islam is on the defensive. Various reform movements, such as the Salafi or Wahabi and the Deobandi, have denounced this traditional Islam as idolatrous (shirk) and an innovation (bid'ah) upon the "pure" Islam of Muhammad's time. They turn their backs upon the rich tradition of Muslim figurative and decorative art and build mosques as plain as warehouses. They tear down the tombs of saints, forbid community celebrations of Mawlid (Muhammad's birthday), and stress a strict legalism rather than Sufi mysticism. This movement is far from unified. There are many currents within it. However, the Saudi Arabian Wahabi tendency has been dominant, thanks to the torrent of Arabian petrodollars that has been diverted to missionary work and the building of mosques and schools in many countries throughout the world.
Another strain in contemporary Islam is liberalism. Islamic liberals are recasting Islam in a form that they feel is fully modern, fully compatible with living an ordinary life in a Western-style secular state. Islamic liberals tend to have had Western-style educations, to respect Western secular learning, and to reject what they see as ossified traditions and repressive, antiquated clerical establishments. They argue that the Islamic law, or sharia, needs to be reconsidered in relation to modern times; interpretations that assume the social institutions of seventh century Arabia, or tenth century Baghdad, are inadequate and out-dated. They demand the revival of the principle of ijtihad, or independent reasoning by a qualified Islamic scholar, which has lain dormant for centuries. They form a third strain in modern Islamic thought, neither Sufi nor Salafi.
Conflicts between these three strains of thought are most pronounced in the Muslim diaspora, the old Dar-ul-harb, the portion of the world where Islam has not been historically predominant. Since World War II, there has been an ever-increasing migration of Muslims into Europe, Canada, the United States, and Australia, in search of education and economic opportunity. While there is a tendency for Muslims from certain areas to congregate (Pakistanis in the UK, Turks in Germany, etc.), Muslims in diaspora are often of diverse origins and different Muslim traditions. It is a difficult task to form functioning communities, with associated mosques and schools, from such disparate materials in completely new conditions. Adding to the complexity are increasing numbers of Western converts to Islam. The largest group of these are African-Americans in the U.S., who bring their own culture to the mosque.
Is the neighborhood mosque to be Sunni or Shi'a, Sufi, Salafi, or liberal? Should Saudi Arabian money be accepted for construction and books? Should the Friday sermons (khutbah) be delivered in Turkish, Urdu, Farsi, Moroccan, English, French? If there is a school, what should it teach? How are imams and teachers to be recruited? All these questions have roiled or split Muslim communities and often led to a proliferation of mosques serving different ethnic communities and strains of belief.
These conflicts have become of great concern to non-Muslims insofar as they facilitate the spread of the religio-political ideology of Islamism. Islamists reject Western political theories, such as the socialism and nationalism that were once preeminent in the Arab world, and insist that the Muslim community, the ummah, will only regain its former power and unity if it returns to its Islamic roots. They want state to function like the Medinan community under Muhammad, obedient to a religious or clerical leader, and subject to Muslim law, or sharia. Many of them dream of a unified world Islamic state, covering the whole globe, uniting the ummah, leading humanity into the Islamic fold.
Islamism has been extremely attractive to some idealistic young Muslims.
Islamists are a minority among Muslims, both in Muslim-majority countries and in the Muslim diaspora, but they are newsworthy out of all proportion to their numbers because of their belief in direct action -- violence -- as an acceptable means of bringing about the Islamist millennium. Shi'a Islamists overthrew the Shah of [[Iran and have attempted to export Shi'a Islamism to surrounding countries. Sunni Islamists such as al-Qaeda temporarily had their own state (the Taliban of Afghanistan) and have been responsible for numerous high-profile, high-casualty terrorist incidents such as (insert links). Sunni Islamists are usually extreme Salafis. (Some Salafis regard them as heretics, and call them Qutbis.)
For majority, non-Islamist contemporary Muslims, dealing with the threat that Islamism poses to their own safety and security is a pressing issue. Islamists seem prepared to kill other Muslims in pursuit of their goals. Islamism threatens whatever assimilation and acceptance the Muslims of the diaspora have been able to achieve. However, the Muslim communities, fractured as they are both in the Dar-ul-Islam and the Dar-ul-harb, have so far been unable to speak with one voice in condemnation of Islamism.
See User:Grenavitar/Contemporary Islam to help get this ready to be put onto the Islam page
Farhansher 20:12, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Zora: Good start. However, you do need to decide from your 'start' whether this can be tightened up to be added in as a section of the Islam page. From Farhansher's comments and his "all encompassing" nature of it, I think it is very likely going to become another page with a brief intro on the Islam page and then a listing under see also. I suggest that before you write the various sections, you may want to make a list of the topics that need to be given under this topic. It would be a good idea since we are going to be reporting to always anchor the main topics to a definite source which then others can build and contribute. That should take care of zeno's objection of "new research". I agree with you that Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-harb is still a valid way to look at the politics of the world. However, some have also introduced couple of other variations such as House of Order (I cannot remember the Arabic form and would have to look it up) and House of valid Contract. Contemporary islam is definately influenced by political islam and its influence. I suggest that you start a page on Contemporary islam and make an outline of topics. Then you can farm out subtopics to people who have the time to pitch in. I would like to help.
Nickbee
20:31, 30 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zora: It's an interesting idea, but I have a few suggestions. There is no need to list all the terrorist attacks under the article Islam, that's a bit unfair and unbalanced. They were condemned by mainstream Muslims worldwide, and I think that including them all goes a bit too far. Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-Harb is an outdated way to look at the world, it ended when the Caliphate fell, and now there exists no Dar-ul-Islam (Why else do terrorists strike in Muslim countries?). mr100percent 20:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
The article states that the Muslim creed is: "I believe in God; and in His Angels; and in His Scriptures; and in His Messengers; and in The Final Day; and in Fate, that Good and Evil are from God, and Resurrection after death be Truth. "I testify that there is nothing worthy of worship but God; and I testify that Muhammad is His Messenger." No source is given, and it is not explained what this creed is called, or where it comes froms. The Islamic creed is generally considered to be the Shahada, which is only the second part of the above "Muslim creed," and not the first part. Can anyone explain where this creed statement came from? -- Zeno of Elea 16:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
According to that very article, In Sahih Al-Muslim and Al-Bukhari, Muhammad explains, "It (Al-Iman/faith) is to affirm your faith in Allah, His angels, His Books His Messengers and the Last Day, and to believe in the Divine Destiny whether it be good or bad." Heraclius 17:43, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Users that have been crossed out are:
23:03, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
discounting sock and newbie votes (Ni-ju-Ichi and Existentializer have both been blocked as socks of banned user Enviroknot), the vote is at 14:17 against linking ffi now. This is more support for the ffi link that I would have imagined, I admit, but it amounts to 'no consensus, no majority'. ffi is two clicks away from this page, which considering its overall relevance to Islam as a whole is certainly fair enough. Also, its content is virtually identical to the dmoz listing, people: nothing is being censored, this is about 'Wikipedia is not a link farm'. Therefore, pending significant changes in majority, I will continue to oppose addition of the link. dab (ᛏ) 07:16, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The wiki way it appears is not within the realm of fairness. It is turf war between the priesthood of admins and those that have been admitted to it. Sockpuppets is a real phenomanon and perhaps the achilles heel of the wiki way. I am sure that there are a few sock puppets on the "no" side as well, and the incentive to create and maintain sock puppets is great given the way decisions are made here. It should come as no surprise that many regular editors will have sock puppets in reserve to win the occasional polls. There can be no consensus on controversial topics; that is the nature of the beast. Hopefully, it is not a matter of winning or losing polls but of delivering solid "free" information to everyone that is important. Nickbee 14:54, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
you really have a hard time hearing another's views. It is not an issue of looking for ANTI-MUSLIM sites! There is a lot of secular muslims and ex-muslims whose views you and gren knowingly or unknowingly suppress. I gave you the views of a muslim in UK the other day. There was another one in a candian paper a few days ago. Here is one from a pakistani paper and an inter view on Al-Jazzeera. All these are muslims speaking, not "Islamophobes" or muslim haters. It is their opinion on Islam that you are lumping as anti-muslim. This is what the muslims of UK are putting on their website: "Jihad is a powerful invigorating yearning for Islam's might and glory ... which makes you cry when looking at the weakness of Muslims today and the humiliating tragedies crushing him to death everywhere. " Jihad is to be a soldier for Allah. When the bugle calls ... you should be the first to answer the call to join the ranks for jihad." ....
And what does wikipedia's Islam page say? Wiki is not even organising information on the Islam page. You guys are drowning in your consensus with a bunch of people who are unwilling to consider any attempt at honesty and forthrightness.
[30]July 30th issue: We are very touchy when we are criticized by westerners, so I am reproducing excerpts from another e-mail, this time from a Pakistani reader living in the United States:
“... a lawyer [of Pakistani descent] at the Justice Department ...informed us that ... more and more mosques are telling people present for prayers that ‘we need to have separate schools so that we could protect our children from American culture’... Finally, wherever we go, Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular, we create and spread hatred, nothing else. I fear for the time when Christians, Jews and Hindus will put the rest of the work on hold and focus their undivided attention on eliminating terrorism around the globe. We cannot comprehend what will happen, but I guess that’s the only way out.”
Wafa Sultan: Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up? How and why does he blow himself up in a bus full of innocent passengers?
In our countries, religion is the sole source of education, and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched. He was not born a terrorist, and did not become a terrorist overnight. Islamic teachings played a role in weaving his ideological fabric, thread by thread, and did not allow other sources – I am referring to scientific sources – to play a role. It was these teachings that distorted this terrorist and killed his humanity. It was not (the terrorist) who distorted the religious teachings and misunderstood them, as some ignorant people claim.
When you recite to a child still in his early years the verse: "They will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off," regardless of this verse's interpretation, and regardless of the reasons it was conveyed or its time – you have made the first step towards creating a great terrorist...
[32] Youth wing of UK Muslim group calls for jihad
01.08.05
By S. Malik
Children as young as 11 are being targeted by radical Muslims who appear to have infiltrated a mainstream Muslim website, The Independent on Sunday can reveal. Literature aimed at children between 11 and 18 on the youth section of the Islamic Society of Britain (ISB) website calls on them to "boycott those who openly wage war against Allah".
The article containing that quote, entitled "Imam Hassan al-Banna on jihad", goes on to say: "Jihad is a powerful invigorating yearning for Islam's might and glory ... which makes you cry when looking at the weakness of Muslims today and the humiliating tragedies crushing him to death everywhere. "
Jihad is to be a soldier for Allah. When the bugle calls ... you should be the first to answer the call to join the ranks for jihad." .... Nickbee 17:20, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
since trolling and haggling is apparently so much easier than writing encyclopedia articles (which is supposed to be the reason we are all here for, remember?) I took it upon myself to create Opposition to Islam, which should be linked from the see also here, once the article is unprotected. So far, the article is largely informed by the Catholic Encyclopedia. Note my caveat on the talkpage there: If at all possible, attribute every statement you make. Once that article expands and stabilizes, it can be summarized in a short "Criticism" section on this article. dab (ᛏ) 12:13, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
btw, Zeno et al, I have added with my own fingers the ffi link page to the Opposition article, as a collection of anti-Islamic sites. I maintain that it is on-topic there, but off-topic here. Your precious site is linked from Wikipedia, at least twice now, so stop saying I want to censor things or am suffering from Islamophilia or whatever. dab (ᛏ) 13:05, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The issue is not "opposition to Islam" as far as I am concerned. The issue is providing a balanced and fair view of Islam for the english speaking world. That is not being acheived by what is on the Islam page. Take a look at the Islam pages on Encyclopedia Brittanica or the Encyclopedia Americana, and the difference of what is on "free" wikipedia and those "for subscription" services is redily apparent. A few phrases here and there on wikipedia Islam's page have been directly lifted off the other two, but the bias twowards Islamic proleytizing at wikipedia is unmistakable when one compares wiki with the other two encyclopedia. And the article written for Ency. Americana is by a group of muslims, and it comes accross as far more objective than what is on wikipedia! I am not sure whether it is possible to provide a real quality given the design by committee and turf protection bureaucratic mentality that appears to be institutionally fostered. I still hope there is some mechanism to improve the quality of the information provided on the Islam page, but I have not found a sensible way yet. I am hoping that the adage 'you get what you pay for' is not strictly applicable to general information. Nickbee 15:20, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Heraclius, look at my attempt above about what should be on the page. Look at the very first section, the section is repetious. The muslim creed statement in english is given in quotes suggesting that is what muslims assert. That is not true. It is a rehash of the information covered above it. Now you tell me which muslim other than the Quran only talks about giving Shahadatain (and it is a plural and not "two testimonies"). Muslims are obliged to give "Shahada". If creed is a mix of the Qalima and the Aqidah then let us state it. But muslims do not verbalise the Aqidah as a statemennt! Then there is absolutely no mention how central within Islam is the respect and love for Muhammad. Muslims attempt to emulate Muhammed because he is considered special. The article barely touches "seal of prophet" and the "final messanger" without even a nod what that implies. Again there is nothing mentioned on Women, nothing on Jihad, Nothing on the issues that a lot of muslims are struggling with these days. Again I am not saying the page should concentrate on these topics, but for crying out loud if they are important enough to go under "see also" they deserve a sentence or two. Now it is obvious gren has great deal of respect for Fazl-ur-Rahman but do a search on where he has been used by the islamic scholars following him and he is barely above Edip Yuksel level. Look at how the muslims after him have treated his views. Why is getting a central exposure here? Another example: Under symbols of Islam, there is no mention of hijab and that has become a symbol of Islam (why else does turkey ban it and why else would france make such a big deal about it?). The OIC did not sign the UN human rights but decided to put out the Islamic human rights charter, and there are differences there. There is a lot of how fast Islam is growing but why is that important or why that should be considered ... no context is provided. If we want to talk about the Islamic world and muslims then some organisation to the information is needed. +
- There are a lot of other little details, but read the page with a clear and open mind and see how it is unintentionally reacting to a lot of criticism and not presenting what is central to understanding Islam and muslims in the present. I honestly believe that if you will clear you mind and not be defensive that I am trying to thrust on you an anti-islam view, and read the page, you will realise that it truly does read like a cheap dawa pamphlet from your not very intelligent but friendly imam.
Nickbee
17:14, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
gren, here is the table of contents of the article on Islam in Encyclopedia Brittanica:
* Islam * The foundations of Islam o The legacy of Muhammad o Sources of Islamic doctrinal and social views o Doctrines of the Qur'an + God + The universe + Man + Satan, sin, and repentance + Prophecy + Eschatology + Social service o Fundamental practices and institutions of Islam + The five pillars # The shahadah, or profession of faith # Prayer # The zakat # Fasting # The hajj + Sacred places and days # Shrines of Sufi saints # The mosque # Holy days * Islamic thought o Origins, nature, and significance of Islamic theology + Early developments + The Hellenistic legacy o Theology and sectarianism + The Khawarij + The Mu'tazilah + The Sunnah # The way of the majority # Tolerance of diversity # Influence of al-Ash'ari and al-Maturidi + The Shi'ah # Isma'iliI # Related sects # The SufiI + Other groups # The Ahmadiyah # The “Black Muslims” o Islamic philosophy + The Eastern philosophers # Background and scope of philosophical interest in Islam # Relation to the Mu'tazilah and interpretation of theological issues * The teachings of al-Kindi * The teachings of Abu Bakr ar-Razi # The teachings of al-Farabi * Political philosophy and the study of religion * Interpretation of Plato and Aristotle * The analogy of religion and philosophy * Impact on Isma'ili theology # The teachings of Avicenna * The “Oriental Philosophy” * Distinction between essence and existence and the doctrine of creation * The immortality of individual souls * Philosophy, religion, and mysticism + The Western philosophers # Background and characteristics of the Western Muslim philosophical tradition # The teachings of Ibn Bajjah * Theoretical science and intuitive knowledge * Unconcern of philosophy with reform # The teachings of Ibn Tufayl * The philosopher as a solitary individual * Concern for reform * The hidden secret of Avicenna's “Oriental Philosophy” # The teachings of Averroës * Philosophy * The divine law * Theology o The new wisdom: synthesis of philosophy and mysticism + Philosophy, traditionalism, and the new wisdom # Philosophy # Traditionalism and the new wisdom # Characteristic features of the new wisdom # Critiques of Aristotle in Islamic theology # Synthesis of philosophy and mysticism + Primary teachers of the new wisdom # The teachings of as-Suhrawardi # The teachings of Ibn al-'Arabi # The teachings of Twelver Shi'ism and the school of Esfahan * The teachings of Mir Damah * The teachings of Mulla Sadra + Impact of modernism o Social and ethical principles + Family life + The state + Education + Cultural diversity o Religion and the arts + The visual arts + Music + Literature + Architecture o Islamic myth and legend + Sources and variations # The Qur'an and non-Islamic influences # The mystics + Types of myth and legend # Cosmogony and eschatology # Tales and legends concerning religious figures * Muhammad * Other Qur'anic figures * Mystics and other later figures # Mythologization of secular tales # Tales and beliefs about numbers and letters + Illustration of myth and legend + Significance and modern interpretations * Additional Reading o General works o Education o Political theory and institutions o Islamic arts o Theology and philosophy o Islamic myth and legend
And this is what is given as the very first paragraph under there:
major world religion belonging to the Semitic family; it was promulgated by the Prophet Muhammad in
Arabia in the 7th century AD. The Arabic term islam, literally “surrender,” illuminates the fundamental
religious idea of Islam—that the believer (called a Muslim, from the active particle of islam) accepts
“surrender to the will of Allah (Arabic: God).” Allah is viewed as the sole God—creator, sustainer, and restorer of the world. The will of Allah, to which man must submit, is made known through the sacred scriptures, the Qur'an (Koran), which Allah revealed to his messenger, Muhammad. In Islam Muhammad is considered the last of a series of prophets (including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and others),
and his message simultaneously consummates and completes the “revelations” attributed to earlier
prophets.
Retaining its emphasis on an uncompromising monotheism and a strict adherence to certain essential religious practices, the religion taught by Muhammad to a small group of followers spread rapidly through the Middle East to Africa, Europe, the Indian subcontinent, the Malay Peninsula, and China. Although many sectarian movements have arisen within Islam, all Muslims are bound by a common faith and a sense of belonging to a single community.
This article deals with the fundamental beliefs and practices of Islam and with the connection of religion and society in the Islamic world. The history of the various peoples who embraced Islam is covered in the article Islamic world.
Do you detect a difference in style and content? Nickbee 17:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
well, not really, that looks like a perfectly fine article to me, and any of the sections you list yet absent here would be welcome. dab (ᛏ) 20:59, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay,dab, you do not see a difference there. Let's try another example which should be very very obvious. This is what is said on Islam page: "In Arabic, God is called Allah, a contraction of al-ilah or "the only god". Allāh thus translates to "God" in English." Now go to wikipedia's page on Allah and see whether that is correct. If there is any dispute over that there, then how can the Islam page present it as a fact? Then the Islam page states: "Muslims believe that the God they worship is the same as the Judeo-Christian God. However, Muslims reject the Christian theology concerning the unity of God (the doctrine of the Trinity which regards Jesus as the eternal Son of God), seeing it as akin to polytheism." which gives rise to "You present muslims believe this ..." but why are you ignoring what christians or jews believe about "Allah". Do they in your readership not count? What is implied when it is stated that "muslims believe ..."? Then a need is felt to explain reject the concept of trinity by quoting the Quran and in the verse one sees: "Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son." Now some would suggest (and there is a long history to this particular religious discussion) that by rejecting the Son, it is far more than the rejection of the trinity. But the writiers are totally oblivious to this discussion on the chrisitian side at all. The perspective is that of the muslims and muslims alone. As I read more from Wikipedia, I am starting to realise that the "quality" of the articles is very very uneven, and there really is apparently no mechanism to rate, rank or correct for quality. That seems to be a built in limitation of the wiki way. So yes information is available, but how reliable and good it is seems to be a matter of the quality of the admins who managed to form a clique to control its contents, and block rowdy dissenters quickly and efficiently. Nickbee 17:59, 2 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Dab, I was trying to give you an example of how britannica steps through the minefield of controversy by not plunking itself squarely with a Muslims POV. But you do not want to listen. Shanes was correct that bickering on this page has been going on for a long time, and I wonder how much of it is contributed by the "controlling" editors abilities and knowledge of Islam. It is obvious that the bickering will keep on going for a long time.
Nickbee
02:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
gren, I have taken your suggestion and started an entry on your talk page. Nickbee 19:50, 3 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
Might I suggest that the links section is divided into two sections. One secton could be for pro and one for anti. Even the various factions in this debate should be able to agree if a site is either for or aginst. The reader can then make a more informed move to an external link. Having looked (briefly) at faithfreedom web site I am inclined to think it is a little anti for my tastes, but it is an example of some peoples opinion of Islam. An encylopedia should strive to be as NPOV as possible but that is not to say that it should sweep Non-neutral points of view (NNPOVs?) under the carpet.
Sorry - I'm not very good at editing stuff 4 Aug 2005
add Hungarian please: hu:Iszlám Marriex 15:30, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The links section used to have pro and anti sections -- as well as links to academic/neutral sites -- and it became a mess. If the only criteria is that the site be pro or anti, there are potentially thousands of sites to be included in each list. No one could agree on which of these sites were the most useful or notable, and the lists grew like cancer. I'm sure that the anon has good intentions, but we've tried that route and it didn't work! That's why we linked to the directories, so as not to have to argue about the choices. The editors who are clamoring for a links list would do better, IMHO, to go volunteer at DMOZ (they're a volunteer group just like Wikipedia) and make sure the DMOZ lists are comprehensive and well-organized. Zora 21:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Really appreciate the editors not being cowed to serve interests of any group. That would be like Muslims attempting to add anti christian links that promote their view. This current thought is all over the yahoo chat rooms. It has nothing to do with academic and scholarly work just opinions and hate. Hopefully this same approach is being applied to the Christian and Jewish pages. But doubt you will have people so dedicated to attach their proselytizing views and sites. User:creativeconsultinggroup 15:44, 4 August 2005
I was wondering, I keep hearing in Islam that apostasy requires the death penalty. I don't know how true that is. What source does that come from? I know treason is punishable by death, but is apostasy always treason in Islamic law? I would appreciate Qur'anic or other credible evidences to show this. Thank You. (---)
Pakistan and Saudia Arabia have put apostates to death in the last 5 years or so. They have also executed blasphemers. An islamic statement on apostates is given by "The punishment of the apostate according to Islamic law, by Abul Ala Mawdudi, translated and annotated by Syed Silas Husain and Ernest Hahn 1994". It is availbale on the net. The islamic apologists will tone down the position articulated by Mawdudi, but the bottom line is that muslim apostates who openly and "vocally" express their apostacy are usually killed off by someone and the state does not have to take action. In the islamic tribal countries, blasphemy and/or declaration of apostacy usually ends up death by an angry mob before the state even gets a chance to step in. Do a search of the news and you will find a few cases sprinkled through out the muslim world Nickbee 19:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
Dismissing Mawdudi as an extremist is the most outrageous partisan stand! Mawdudi is cited by more muslim writers and more muslim scholars than the minor figure of Fazl-ur-Rahman! Are Salafis more extremist than Sunnis? Mawdudi is the founder of Jamiat Islami a party that has millions of members in Pakistan. Why does a "buddhist" editor Zora feel the need to take sides and dismiss one voice of Islam over another? It is not a question of what you like and what you do not like as an editor. Deobandi school has an extensive history and people are dying in Pakistan as the Deobandi are exerting their power over the other branches of thoughts in Islam. Why not report as factually as possible what is out there? Mawdudi is a voice in Islam, not the only voice, perhaps not even a determining voice, but his voice is in the camp of those who have led to the ideology of Osama and Aymen Zawaheri. This is a prime example of what is wrong with the set of editors that are controlling the pages of Islam. They are censoring information and crafting it instead of honestly trying to present all sides of it. Have apostates been put to death in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia or not in recent years? Archbishop of Canterbury not withstanding! The voice of Mawdudi is more influential in the Islamic world right now than the London Sufi's. That is a fact and an encyclopedia should report it honestly.
Nickbee
22:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
This is what wikipedia says about Mawdudi:" Maulana Maududi’s philosophy, literary productivity and tireless activism contributed immensely to the development of Islamic political and social movements around the world. Maulana Maududi’s ideas profoundly influenced Sayyid Qutb of Egypt’s Jamiat al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun (“Muslim Brotherhood”) another leading Muslim philosopher of the 20th century. Together, Maududi and Qutb are considered the founding fathers of the global Islamic revival movement." On one page he is the founding father of global Islamic revial movement and here Zora is dismissing him as an extremist! Go figure!
Nickbee
22:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
STOP. Way off topic. to clarify some things, in Islam, men and women ARE equal, not gonna get into that bc its off topic. Last verse in faithfreedom.com link is not contradictory, dont wanna get into that either. Back to apostasy, none of those verses clearly say that apostasy must be punished by death. Some of them even seemed to say that God will be responsible for their punishment. Do I think apostasy isn't necessarily punishable by death? No, I'm not sure, but those verses aren't exactly proof either way. If someone wants to discuss this or any other Islamic points of view with me, my email is lose6060@yahoo.com. Thanks. (---)
This is ridiculous. People arguing that apostates are not executed in Islam. This is absolutely revolting. The fact that the apologetic point of view is so easily pushed into articles brings the fundamental credability of wikipedia into question. Anyone who doubts that apostates are not executed in Islam or thinks that it has anything to do with apologetic bullshit about "treason" should carefully read over Martyrs of Cordoba. Fact is that certain "apostate" editors right here on Wikipedia are liable to be executed for what they write about Islam, and meanwhile we have Western liberal apologists for Islam explaining to them that penalties for apostasy are really just about political treason and are a bygone relic of the era of the vile imperial "caliphate." It certainly is true that the classical madbhabs had differing views of the penalties for apostacy. But it amounts to pedestrian apologetics to deny the basic fact that the death penalty for apostacy from Islam it is widely believed in and practiced in the present day and throughout the history of Islam. As for the Islamic treatment of women - you have to be kidding me. -- Zeno of Elea 13:35, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, your broad generalizations are getting a bit stale. What do you mean "apostates are executed in Islam"? What do you mean by Islam? The Islamic world? Societies where there are Muslims? I can tell you that there are countries in the Arab/Muslim world where apostates are not executed, take Lebanon/Syria/Jordan. There are conflicting opinions about whether or not apostates should be executed. Furthermore, The Martyrs of Cordoba was one incident over a millenia ago. It has little or no relevance today.
Heraclius
15:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
How about we mention these? Or is the truth verboten as it relates to Islam?
Qur’an 33:59 “Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better.”
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’” —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.109.206.212 ( talk • contribs) 15:52, 5 August 2005.
The widely accepted translations of 33:59 are: 033.059 YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. There is no mention of one eyes or two eyes. As Bidawi in UK stated in the last couple of days that the injunction to cover was to avoid harm and being molested. But the muslim dress in the west has become a "political statement", especially the hijab (see Amina Wudud's statements on it), and may end up becoming a cause of harm and hence against the Quranic injunction. Further Muslim female writers are suggesting that the traditional chador or Burqa might be the result of interpretation by the male dominated Islamic heirarchy (See Asma Barlas for example in "Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Quran; Qur'an and Woman: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective by Amina Wudud; or Standing Alone in Mecca : An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam by Asra Nomani). However, I do agree that there should be some mention of Women in Islam on the Islam page with a link to the page on Women in Islam. Nickbee 22:09, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
When was the last time the uncivilized bible thumpers of South Carolina celebrated the death of the Kaffirs in the London tubes of 7/7? You guys don't push your POV? Take a look at the civilized world of London: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1724923_1,00.html Nickbee 02:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Nickbee 02:48, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
The poll has officially closed, as of August 6. No consensus and no majority to remove or include the link has been reached. What now? -- Zeno of Elea 17:16, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Do you have a clue why the US has the first and the second amendments to its Constitution? Even with a 55% to 45% rigged vote, your arrogance is an eye opener. "Such views have stout majorities in certain bible thumping communities, but thank goodness not anywhere in the civilized world?" And that is not hate? Hypocritical? Nauseating?
Nickbee
00:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
dab (ᛏ) 07:30, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Look at your post above quoting the stupid article on nuking. Then read dab's comment's below. dab states: "It's a point of view, granted. The point here is notability. Such views may have stout majorities in certain bible thumping communities, but thank goodness not anywhere in the civilized world (which would of course cease to be civilized, so that's really a null statement)" Now you tell me where does bible-thumping uncivilised communities came into the discussion? And then he proceeds to wrap himself up in self righteousness with :"I am not saying it is illegal in the US to call for the nuking or gassing of everyone that refuses to believe in Christ the Saviour. You are free to make a perfect fool of yourself. However, the amendments do not mean anyone is forced to listen to you, or to disseminate your propaganda." You care to explain to me where does Christ the Saviour comes into the article at all? Where does the author Vernon Richard talk about Christianty or Christ the Saviour? If that is not an outburst against christians and christianity, then I do not know what would be. Go ahead I am waiting to find out what is it that I am missing here.
Nickbee
17:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
The page has been locked since July 23, so we should probably think about unprotecting it soon. Do the editors here feel it needs to stay locked for any longer? SlimVirgin (talk) 18:05, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely nothing has been resolved. The "established" editors are not interested in entertaining any steps to arrive at a NPOV on Islam. I expect that you will be asked to lock the page up again within a few days of unlocking it. The page will be edited and it will not be acceptable to many of the editors who have been controlling this page for some time now. Nickbee 00:32, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Nickbee/Nick the Socialist, many of those epithets were used to refer to the article about nuking Mecca, which you as a supporter of FFI apparently back. Heraclius 03:35, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Farhansher 04:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I do not think the page is acceptable as it is. It does need major changes. And I assure you that I intend to be bring in a whole lot of relevant secondary sources. And your outburst about Christianity and Christ the Savior is very useful. I am sure the stout majorities have internet connections as well and they will be delighted to know how a dawa page is being protected. If you guys did not like the FFI crowd, you are going to love the Club 700 crowd. Nickbee 18:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I don't feel those links from Dmoz criticizing Islam do any justice for they are all nonsense and emotional sites. I think that the section Opposition_to_Islam created by the user above does more justice. I Thank You SlimVirgin for taking the time to properly maintain this page along with the other editors. Tehmasp 18:06, August 09 2005
Would it be alright if I archived everything before the section Apostasy- death penalty?? This is already bigger than most of hte archives seem to be and discussion on everything above that has ended I believe. (feel free to remove this section if archiving is done) gren グレン 00:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
There are related VFDs - Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Opposition to Islam and Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Klonimus/AINB ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 19:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
However, Sikhs are forbidden from practices such as eating ritually prepared meat (halal) that are central in Islam. This is none-factual; not because of what Sikhs practise, but because Muslims have no rituals for preparing meat, save for the slaughter method. No need to mention that eating meat itself isn't a ritual. -- Alif 14:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
The article starts out with "In Arabic, Islām means "submission" (understood as submission to God) and is described as a Dīn or Deen, meaning "way of life" and/or "religion." Islam is a "Deen" has deep implications and it does not translate to "religion" in the western sense. It is important to make that distinction. Without that distinction there is always a lot of confusion and impossible to understand the principles of Islam. Here are some sources: [35] These four linguistic meanings constitute the concept of the word “deen” in the Qur’an. Therefore, “deen” implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts: 1-The ruler ship and the authority belong to Allah (swt) only. 2-The obedience and submission are to Allah (swt). 3-The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) is established by this authority (Allah). 4-The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those who followed the system and submitted to him and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it. Based on this definition of “deen”, we can conclude that it is a submission, and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects. After understanding this definition of the Arabic word “deen”, we realize that it is not correct to translate it into English using the word “religion". Muslims must do their best to clarify to others the reality of the word “deen” in the Islamic perspective; also they should implant this reality in their youth’s minds so that they will not confuse the concept of “deen” with all other erroneous and distorting definitions. .... Islam is a divine system, with it Allah (swt) sealed all other “deens” and religions, and he made it a comprehensive system that deals with all aspects of human life (Belief, intellectual, moral and practical). This system is based on total submission to Allah (swt) alone, purifying worship to him only, and following the traditions (sunnah) of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Maududi states in Maududi page 34 in A fundamental Misconception Currently religion is considered to be a belief or thought which a person selects with reference to metaphysical concerns. To obtain salvation in the life after death there is a way on which a man acts according to his belief. ... In fact, this has not at all been the nature of Islam. It is not only a "religion" in the modern technical sense of that term but a complete order of life. It relates not only to the metaphysical but also to nature and everything in nature. It discourses not only on the salvation of life after death but also on the questions of prosperity, improvement and the true ordering of life before death. It establishes a dependence of salvation after death upon the true ordering of life before death. Granted that it is nevertheless only a belief. Yet it is not a belief which is concerned only with some remote phase of life. Rather, it is that belief on whose foundation a plan for the whole of life rests. It is not a belief whose existence or change has no noticeable effect on the great and significant ramifications of human life but a belief on whose continuation the continuation of civilization and the state depend and the changing of which means changing the order of civilization and state. It is not a faith which a person may choose with only the concern of the individual in mind. It is that faith on the basis of which a society of people establishes a complete order of a civilization in a particular form and brings into existence a state to operate it. A faith and idea of this nature cannot be made into a game for the liberties of individuals. Nor can the society, which establishes the order of civilization and state on that faith, make way for any brainwave to enter, then to be displaced by another brainwave, to come and go at will. This is not a game or picnic intended to entertain a person in a totally irresponsible manner. This is a terribly serious and extremely delicate work whose fine balance affects the order of society and state. Its success and failure affect the success and failure of thousands and millions of God's servants. Here is another site with a similar message:There is perhaps no word in the terminology of any country or people-other than Muslims-which would comprehensively embrace all these factors. The word `state' as employed in our own day does, to some extent, approximate to the sense, but even this word lacks the far wider connotation which would bring it on a par with the word Deen. Examples of the Qur'anic use of deen in this comprehensive sense are as follows:... [36]
There are many other references that can be cited but the central point is that an explicit statement that by deen, or a complete way of life, it is meant that Islam covers 'religion' as understood in the west, jurisprudence (i.e. Sharia), and a body politic. In short the separation of state and religion is not envisioned in the fundamentals of Islam. That central concept leads to a clear idea of the role of Sharia for muslims and why the muslims in the west are pushed to ask for Sharia to rule their lives, for without it their 'religion'is incomplete. I suggest that a few sentences to a small paragraph be added to clearly make that distinction. Do you guys agree? Nickbee 20:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I have put up a proposed page for Din
[37]. Please check it out and offer any suggestions. Thanks
Nickbee
19:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zora, I am not preaching anything. I am showing how "Din" has been explained by muslims themselves. I have quoted Maududi, but I have also quoted others. Those are not my words. Those are the words of the Muslims themselvs. Do you know who Parwez was? He was the leading Quran only Muslim and not a deobandi. He wrote that in the 1940's. Why don't you provide good secondary sources about your understanding of din and I will incorporate those in the page? Again this is an encyclopedia, and we are here not to give our take on things. Those are the words of the muslims themselves. Calling Deobandi's Kentucky snake handlers is dismissing hundreds of millions of muslims around the world. This is what Inayat Bunglawala
[38]and
[39] has to say about your snake handlers of Islam: "The MCB's Inayat Bunglawala said he had a deep respect for Maududi and defended the MCB's affiliation to Khurshid Ahmad's Islamic Foundation. He said: 'Maududi is a very important Muslim thinker. The book that brought me to practise Islam was Now Let Us Be Muslims by Maududi. As for Jamaat-i-Islami, it is a perfectly legal body in Pakistan. There is no suggestion that the Islamic Foundation has done anything wrong. They have done fantastic work in publishing literature on Islam, including works for children.'" MCB is the leading organisation of Muslims in UK and the head is SIR Iqbal Sacranie (knighted only recently) who also happens to be an admirer of Maududi unlike yourself (read the observer articles).
Nickbee
21:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Just googling on din - islam - definition brings up this quote:
The use of din in the last words of it, Atakum yu‘allimukum dinakum, "came to you to teach you your religion" entails that the religion of Islam is composed of the three fundamentals mentioned in the hadith: Islam, or external compliance with what Allah asks of us; Iman, or the belief in the unseen that the prophets have informed us of; and Ihsan, or to worship Allah as though one sees Him.
--from a Sufi, Ha Mim Keller. [41]
Another Sufi:
From this hadith it is apparent that the Din has three basic components, Islam, Iman and Ihsan. We can compare these three elements to the three parts of an egg. Islam which is the practical outer practises, we can for example see people performing Salah or performing Hajj, of the Din corresponds to the hard outer protective shell of the egg. Iman which are the basic beliefs and world-view of the Din, corresponds to the white unseen part of the egg. And finally Ihsan corresponds to the yolk of the egg, its heart and from which eventually a life will evolve. Ihsan according to the words of the Nabi, may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, has two aspects; 1) Mushahadah, or Spiritual Vision , or the inward vision of Allah ... [42]
Din = religion = self-cultivation
If you read Islamists, you're going to get definitions like Din = religion = living in Islamic states/communities.
Please try to recognize the diversity in the Muslim world. Frankly, from a self-protective POV, as in, "I don't want those Islamists to blow me up", it makes a lot more sense to make common cause with the non-violent Muslims than it does to try to demonize them all as Islamists. Zora 02:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I will not dignify some of your silly charges. I have zero interest in demonizing anyone. I am interested in providing unbiased information about "din" at the moment. So you agree that many do consider 'din' to include the state. Now where do I get references for din=self-cultivation? Even the sufi literature does not restrict din to mean just self-cultivation. Do you know what the hadiath is talking about? You have given me two references for Tasawwuf. Do you understand the "context" of tasawwuf? I will include something on the view of the Sufi on din and the criticism it generated historically. Do you have additional references?
Nickbee
05:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zero interest in demonizing anyone? Ok Nick the Socialist from FFI. Heraclius 22:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Instead of attacking me and calling me names etc. why don't you get some solid second sources that show that my sources are wrong. Do you dispute with the sources? Do you have other sources that state things differently? Please provide other sources and I will gladly incorporate them as alternatives. The whole idea is to present as an accurate image and information as possible. You guys have an agenda apparently. Nickbee 04:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
So "Deen" refers to a way of life. How is this different from "Religion"? (*Religion*, mind you, not *Church*). How many Christians would describe their faith as a hobby for lazy Sunday afternoons? Critics of Islam as "inherently backward" generally seem entirely ignorant of Christianity between the fourth and 16th century (i.e., they blissfully ignore 60% of Christian history!). If anything, pre-Reformation Christianity was *worse* than Islam, by their own standards. Much worse. 12th century Christians were simply barbarians compared to the Muslim world. The Modern Age is not "inherent" in Christianity any more than it is "inherently foreign" to Islam. Bottom line: "Religion" is a fair translation of Deen. dab (ᛏ) 09:24, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
and governing all their life aspects." [43] [44] [45] -- Zeno of Elea 10:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The page is over 40k long. Why not spawn some sections near the end off as separate pages? They stick out as separate topics anyway.
In the subsection 'Other beliefs' of 'Beliefs', it is stated (paraphrasing) '... Jinns are made of fire ...' I think we should be careful about what we mean by 'fire' in the context of jinns. The word 'fire', Islamically, doesn't necessarily mean the hot stuff we're all familiar with, rather it can refer to a state of punishment (not necessarily by burning). Also, if jinns are truly made of the fire that we're familiar with, then we should be able to see or interact with them in some physical way. What I'm trying to say is that if we're not absolutely sure of the facts (and the ambiguities present in the word 'fire'), then we should change the above clause to something less definite. Any comments/suggestions ? --- Mpatel (talk) 16:04, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
2005 demographics trends of Islam. This info has been added to article
Is the Kharijite belief a major branch of belief ? --- Mpatel (talk) 16:03, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, why did you remove the picture of the Islamabad mosque? Shouldn't there have been some discussion? I can't say that I liked the picture much, or the architecture of the mosque. But the article is looking even drier and more forbidding now. Zora 10:49, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Mpatel, I don't think it's necessary to add "Kitab" after "Books". Giving the Arabic word for book is an unnecessary detail and taxes the reader to no end. Also, an anon saved numerous times as he/she fiddled with the list of Muslim beliefs, changing it for the worse in terms of style. Zora 19:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Ashmoo mentioned that the Islamic view of angels is the same as in other religions - I'm not absolutely convinced of this yet, which is why I just redirected malaikah to Angels in Islam. Anyway, regarding the 'links' issue, Svest, I agree that if the terms are not specific to Islam, then clearly it would be silly to have too much translation. As the article is specific to Islam, however, there should be some translations and links (at least for 'the 6 articles of belief'); reason: many Arabic words have become part and parcel of Islamic terminology and this should be considered. --- Mpatel (talk) 17:29, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
The opening is more or less undisputable fundamentals. Political movement, while it can no doubt be true, is not fundamental. So, why would it ever be there? gren グレン 13:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
07:10, 27 August 2005 Free them (rv - prank edit?) (→Islamic law)
Islamic law advises against charging interest on loans for it can lead people to a life of servitude.
I believe this to be true can I have help with it? Political hack 16:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Can I use the words "advises against" instead of "forbidden"? Because millions of Muslim and me are charging or paying interest on loans. In 7th century and through out recorded time there were and are today "opportunistic" interest charging laws. Is it fair to say today under Islamic law that the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 (had a 30% interest rate cap removed form the bill) is a "opportunistic" law?
The Act contains a compulsory adult education program to forcibly teach people to pay there interest charging loans. Can a Muslim on religious grounds refuse to go to a compulsory adult education class that forcibly teaches about paying interest charging loans that is "forbidden" under Islamic law? Political hack 04:57, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree, if the program is a "haram" many more people will convert to Islam. Political hack 08:36, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Can I please urge editors to read the whole article (I know that takes time, but that's just tough) before making edits. I've just reverted some (presumably well-intentioned) edits by Nourah who has clearly not read enough of the article (or related articles) before making changes. --- Mpatel (talk) 14:03, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed lately that many edits refer to Quran-only. I am one of the partizans but that doesn't mean we have to make this article a comparison of the two views. The section "See also" is set-up for that purpose. Cheers. -- Svest 20:07, August 28, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Peace. The Quran-only part in relation with the shahaada is very VERY important and should not have been removed. Both mainstream "Muslims" and Quran Alone Muslims believe in the Quran and the shahaadah so it would be wrong to say that all Muslims excvept the shahaadatAAN(TWO shahaadahs) as part of their faith coz we dont and consider it flagrant idolatry to mention muhammad's name next to GOD's. I hope you understand this. GOD Bless! user:idmkhizar
Dear 72.225.24.119. I think I explained very well my reverts when i did them! I was expecting you to do the same. I am going to explain them here as well... We are not going to source all pages of any single website unless they are extremely irrelevant. Due to the nature of this article (a general article about Islam), we cannot afford listing all of those pages. Note that you can do so at the Ahmadiyya article if you wish to do so. !!! So let's stick with referencing the main page of Al Ahmadiyya website. Please call me at this number in case: Wiki me up™. Cheers -- Svest 21:02, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
"There is no god but God; Muhammad is the messenger of God."
in the last edit (by 219.95.134.10) this sentence was modified with Allah instead of God, wich one is more correct? -- Melaen 15:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Still don't understand why Wikipedia still contain mis-interpretation on Qur'an 5:51 and 9:29. This paragraph is mentioned in Islam article in "Islam and other religion" section
"Earlier passages of the Qur'an are more tolerant towards Jews and Christians. Later passages of the Qur'an are more critical of them. Sura 5:51 commands Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends. Sura 9:29 commands Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians until they either submit to Allah or else agree to pay a special tax."
First, 5:51
It is totally ILLOGICAL that Qur'an forbid muslim take jews and christian as friends, when we see the fact of history on early Islam years! The major source of confusion is the word 'awliyaa', which has ambiguous meaning in English, it can be friend, allies, supporter, leader and protector. Muhammad (pbuh) had shown exemplary social relationship with idol worshippers in his early years as prophets, as the results many of these pagan people deeply attracted to Islam and become the devout defender of Islam, the classical example is Umar bin Khattab.
If these pagan worshippers who has no clear concept of God become good friends of Muhammad (pbuh), then Jews and Christian as the 'people of the book' should receive even better treatment. If Muhammad never take any non-muslims as friends, then logically he will become the sole muslim, this interpretation of 5:51 is totally inconsistent with the rapid growth of Islam in the first 100 years of Islam history.
In my country, Indonesia, as non-arabic speaking country, the word 'awliyaa' is translated as leader or protector. Hence, it is forbidden for non-muslim to become a leader of a homogenous muslim community, because it may bring many problems due to the cultural and core belief differences. This is the LOGICAL interpretation!!!!!!!
Then, 9:29
I don't believe this! Why anyone who wrote this article didn't refer to the exact translation of 9:29, instead he/she use free assumption. The 9:29 mentions:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
The interpretation of 'fight', is not always means a physical confrontation. Just like examples given by Muhammad (pbuh), it is the belief that should be fought, while the believer as a human being should receive good treatment.
War is the last resort and defense measure, it is the sole option when the safety of Islam and ummah is under direct attack.
Conclusion:
Many words in arabic have no direct meaning with English words. Then, Qur'an translation to English cannot be solely on grammatical consideration but also include historical examples of Muhammad, in how to apply Qur'an verses.
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Why so much tensions people? If you feel the need to rave, rant, criticize eachother, etc. get a room! or a least a blog, then you can say whatever you want. Chillax, you'll feel much better. When people get heated about their strong opinions, its dangerous for them to get near a keyboard. People are soooo reactionary these days, so unopen to intelligent debate. Cool it off, and save it for the playground. That's my two cents.
I hope the posts catagorizing muslims as terrorists are joke posts... If not, well then the posters should realize that in South East Asia, the Christians are the ones murdering muslims in cold blood. There is video footage on the net of Christian rebels in either Indonesia or the Phillipines killing young muslim children with machetes; this atrocity happened only about 5-8 years ago.
Also, if you look back at history, Christians were the ones who slaughtered every Jew and Muslim in Jerusalem when they conquered it in the 2nd crusade. Whem muslims took the city back, they not only did not start a massacre, but they permitted Christian and Jewish worship in the city.
The thing that makes me sad and angry is the fact that our beloved Great Bitain was so horribly and violently attacked. Over the many years our great nation has accepted many beliefs and welcomed people from all over the world. But for islam and their followers to take up arms and attack a city that has always been open to all types of people I really cant accept. We have looked after you,given you many things. You have the freedom and sucurity in Britain that,lets be honets you would not get in most islamic states. Islam followers need to really think hard about their loyalties and dyties in Britain and work togther. As one can see that islam extremists gain nothing from killing people and only fuels more hatred towards islam. I really cant see want they are trying to gain. One just cant force your ideas on people,it just doesnt work. Everyone blames everyone. The article below shows how easily we can look at history to blame others. Yes I agree, imperial nations was not good or evil. But we gained alot of knowledge and must simply remember not makes mistakes twice. So I call on all islam extremists to stop your hatred and attacks on beautiful Britain. As i fear you time is running out. We are a nation who has surived many difficulies and trust me terrorist,you will not win. And Gloriful Mighty Britain shall stand in victory once again.
I haven written any thing outside these two horizontal lines<\n> Please don't listen to this website<\n> I only deleted this article to abstrain this person show his views to our muslim brothers and sisters .how dare they call muslim terrorists and barbarians It is they who are terrorists .History tells us And this person dont know about history go and read it.from greek & roman empire till today they destryed the world through there terrorism they are what we can truly call barbarins.They cheat people.They call themselve superior and others inferior.They run on the streets and beaches naked and do sex openly in so desgusting way that no civillized person(which they call barbarians) can not imagien.I am not talking about all but majority of them.there women have many hasband and many of them are even not married And Many of them don't even know who there fathers are And in america on every day thousends of women are raped is this they call civillization they are worst people on the planet.There socities are truly barbaric socities And they are proud geedy and barbaric people who attacks on inocent and weak nations and destroy there culture,there econemy,kills thousends and thousends of them take control of there all resources and say that they are there to free them while few people dies in there cities by the desprate attempt of supresed nations and they say that they are barbaric nations.only i think approx 100 inocent people died by the blast in london but british army killed 24000 inocent muslims in iraq And this is just not it during 1919 they killed thousends of inocent muslims,hindus and sikhs who were just campaining for there freedom in amritser<---This is the history .Ans there are thousends of these kinds of crime against humanities by the coloniel powers which they call them selves civillized including British,French,Russian,Americans,Hindus upper cast,Germens,Spainish,Dutch,purtuges,belgariens,etc.Spainish army killed thousends of native americans during there regin on americas.compare it with ottoman empire which was also coloniel power before 1914.they ruled entire balkans and most of south east europe for more then 600 years till 1911 but they robbed there resources.most of christion nations were autonumus and had total freedom.The people which converted to islam in these nations were by there own will not by force.if so today grecce,bulgaria,romania,hungry,silvakia,serbia,coratia,moldiva,montenegro,mecidonia would have been totly muslim today on ther other hand spain use to be multi relegious socity before 1492 but few years after it they are totaly catholic.the most of south america carabien and maxico was also turned catholic by force.this totaly explain that muslim powers were not greedy and they were extremly tolerent people And they did'nt attack weak nations like what westeren powers did to became strong.They only attacked those nations which were proud and greedy and dose'nt respect freedom of others.they attacked with there small and weak armies from 7th century till today and they were atlast victorious in every battle.They attacked great persian empire and reduced it to nothing.they attacked great byzentine empire and reduced it to nothing.but they never attacked ethopia which was also christion from very early time.They did'nt never attack china.they never attacked any black country.They did'nt enter subcontinent for expansion .They only enterned when they were attacked by the hindus.And even today majority of people of subcontinet are hindu.I am a pakistani and fofathers only converted when they were impressed by the muslims.similarly there are many examples.And the land which today USA stands which they are proud of was snatched by the inocent native americans.so it proves that it was them who are thives,fasist,greedy,hypocrates not muslims.
And you also say that islam has took freedom of women.but do you know that islam was the first religion who told that women are as equal as men but are different in many things.It was islam who allowed women to educate as much as they like and to inharite and to vote.And Allowed to marry by her own will to any men.compare it will western socities.women were never given a right to vote till the first world war.she was never given a right of education till the industrial age.And she is merly a toy of man.she is only free by name.it is a fact that most of the women is west are doing jobs to entertain man like music,dance,prosicution,sex and they all die in end in hell.While in islam women is given full rights but even men are not allowed to do these things.Even men are not allowed to show to much of there fleash,There is a thing called satter which is how much fleash is allowed to show in public by both man and women.but a husband can do any thing for her wife and a wife can do any thing for her husband in private but not publicly.but the hijab which you saw during taliban rule in afghanistan and in many parts of my country pakistan is totaly ignorance and how they interprate islam to not educate woman and to put her completly in house.But these are expections in all islam is a very tollerant religion and is freedom for every humanbeing..........................So the conclusion is totaly that these people who spread hate abuot other religions are hypocrate even al-qaida.There is a ayat in quran which says of quran that killing inocent human being is like this to kill the entire humankind.You can find this ayat easily in quran and it also says that woman has complete right to choose a man by her own will.And islam even says not to heard even animals.And do you know that we respect all the formar prophets of christionaty and judism as equal as Muhammad(PBUH) includeing Jesus Christ(AS),Moses(AS),Abrahim(AS),David and Soloman(AS),etc .Prophet muhammad(PBUH) says that dont make me superior then any other.You can also find this hadith very easily.And in islam we beleve that all prophets are muslims and even jews and christions are muslims they are only following wrong paths and there holy books are now curropt.
I added a link to the directories critical of Islam given under external links directories. The link was to www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm . It was deleted within a day. That is a shame. I did not edit any content of the page, nor added or subtracted any statement on Islam. The links provided by faithfreedom are more extensive than anything given under the directories listed under the external links. Faithfreedom is clearly anti-Islam and its links are to various critics of Islam. I find it absolutely unacceptable that the editors will censor to this level. Why cannot wikipedia tolerate links to faithfreedom's link page that is clearly more comprehensive than the other directories linked under external link? Perhaps the editors of the Islam page should not be biased muslims who have an agenda to beat the drum of their particular sect. Reading this disscussion page clearly shows that the malady of sectarianism within Islam has reached Wikipedia as well.
I just checked the link to the directory at dmoz and they list a total of 27 enteries that are critical of Islam. The rest are essentially links to islamic sites. Here is the numbers in the list at dmoz:
dmoz gives under opposing views of islam:
Ahamadiyya(32), Deendar Anjuman(2),Islamism(22), Nation of Islam(19),Quranites (1),Shia (3),Submitters (3),Sufism (13),Sunni(3) which are all sects of Islam and quite pro-Islam. I have gone to the various sites and found no contra views on Islam at those links.
The contra Views on Islam are listed by dmoz as:
Christian Views(20),Ex-Muslim(3),Hindu Views(3),Jewish Views(1).
Faithfreedom links to 74 sites on the page. There is perhaps an overlap of about four or five enteries between dmoz and faithfreedom. I am not interested in your or zora's or anyone's religion. The idea, I thought was to provide the readers the best information available. The issue is that the bickering on this page clearly tells us that there are plenty of sectarian issues within Islam and the contra-views of Islam are clearly a need to understand the passion being demonstrated. I provided a link that clearly has more contra views to Islam than the link given at dmoz, and that was deleted. I urge the editors to take another look dispassionately and restore that link. And look at the external links under Hinduism for a comparison. A few more links under Islam will not be madness, but far from it.
Farhansher, that sort of thing doesn't help. All we have to say is that faithfreedom doesn't get any special treatment. Rather than link directly to sites about Islam in general (except for academic sites and sites re non-controversial specific topics), we link to directories, which have the space and the mission to be completely inclusive. Anyone who goes to the directories will find ALL the sites. Zora 4 July 2005 07:25 (UTC)
Farhansher, it is your diatribes that are unencyclopedic. You will acheive nothing by ranting at people. As for "faithfreedom", by the title of that page,
it appears to be a site about Islamism? At first glance, it contains very cheap and sarcastic Islam-bashing, and it has certainly no theological relevance. You may attempt to argue for inclusion of the on Islamism, but probably the more appropriate place would be Islamophobia. Just like we don't link to pure proselytizing sites, we don't link to fearmonging sites. dab (ᛏ) 4 July 2005 08:23 (UTC)
The issue is not whether you agree with Faithfreedom or not. The point is that the link page at FFI has more relevent and varied links than at dmoz. Your argument that dmoz is more comprehensive and that there are too many links have been shown to be spurious. The external links under hinduism are atleast 4 to 5 times more than what they are under Islam, and the number of links at FFI clearly are more and varied than at dmoz. The bias of the editors is obvious and evident, and it is damaging to Wikipedia. You will not even tolerate a link to a page under External Links because you disagree with the sites point of view? That is not the function of an editor!! That is censorship plain and simple. There are many many people who agree with the pov expressed at those links as is evident by the number of sites and their readership, and you do not want to provide any link to them? Is that what an encyclopedia is supposed to be? Who is asking for any special treatment for FFI? Do the editors appreciate what is meant by contra-views on Islam? Do the editors appreciate what is meant by freedom of speech? If this attitude of censorship of Wikipedia gets general media attention, do the editors understand what the consequences will be for the credibility of this supposed encyclopedia? Too many people have put in too many hours to create this resource to be allowed to be "hijacked" by a few editors who obviously are having a hard time understanding the proper role of an editor.-Nickbee
The comments by FarhanSher are an example of an unbiased editor at Wickipedia? Is that representative of the quality of editorial comments here? Just curious? -Nickbee
Charles P. The policy is obviously not uniformly applied. I showed you the Hinduism page where the external links are directly to sites that are clearly proselytizing in nature. I am not linking to Faithfreedom directly but to a page that contains 74 links to contra-views on Islam. These links are not available to Wikipedia readers and you as an editor are not willing to consider whether they should be? You mention the other sites: Are there link directories at those sites? Are those sites already listed at dmoz? If not then they should be included. Who is asking for withholding of information? Why deny the Wikipedia readers access to information because you do not like the point of view being expressed there? Why the need for such petty censorship? Again I am not changing one line of information on the topic, merely linking to a page that contains links to sites that express contra-views to the topic and those links are not available at any other listing provided by wikipedia under the topic? If you know of sites that have directories that present links to pro-views on the topic and those links are not currently available, I would imagine that as an editor you should, perhaps must, include those links as well. Should a good encyclopedia not offer access to information that is available out there? Why the reluctance to include merely a link to a page that contains links to sites that are obviously well visited and that contain "contra-views" on the topic of the page? -Nickbee
Dab's comments make it perfectly clear that he is very familiar with Faithfreedom. So he visits it and knows about it, but he also feels entitled to deny the information about it to the readers of Wikipedia!! Is that not THE Definition of censorship? Who is asking posting the faithfreedom pov under Islam? But why deny an external link to a page that is obviously potent enough to rile a distinguished editor of wikipedia, and that obviously has significant readership? -Nickbee
(via edit conflict)
It is truly mindboggling. The professionalism of the editors as expressed by their language: "instead of squawking about censorship and withholding of information.". "Spare us the empty rhetoric."!! And all of this because of trying to get the editors to reconsider their decision on providing a link. No one is asking you to link to all the sites. You answered your question yourself about the other sites: "Yes, there are link directories on the sites I named, and yes, the sites (if not the link pages) are in dmoz.". There is no need for replication, is there? Now where in dmoz are the links given at faithfreedom? Those links are not available. Why is that so hard for you to understand? There are not infinite links to Islam out there. The contra views are not many, and that is why the collection of contra views of Islam at the link page at FFI is valuable. Your comment: "you're not linking to their front page, but you are linking directly to a page with www.faithfreedom.org in the URL, which is closely linked into the rest of the pages on the site. Word games." is indicative of your mentality. The entire Internet is only a few clicks away. Why have Wikipedia at all? Do you understand fully the logic of your statement? It really appears that the idea of providing information to Wikipedia readers so that they can get ALL sides of the information on a topic is not something the present set of editors grasp. Wikipedia is not British Encyclopedia, is it? It is an online Enclycopedia where people can edit and enter information. It is supposed to be better than the british encyclopedia. And you cannot grasp a simple and straightforward concept that providing a link to a page that has useful information is required for Wikipedia to be successful. But the agenda of the current spate of editors will not allow that!! Where does it say that Wikipedia "policy" is that links can only be provided by dmoz? Atleast they have the decency to link to FFI which you and your cohorts are unable to fathom that it is okay if NEW AND RELEVANT information is to be had there. I assure you that this will get more and more publicity and this issue will not go away. You guys are behaving as if you own Wikipedia and want to run it as a private domain. No one is allowed even to ask for a reconsideration! Amazing! -Nickbee.
"Wikipedia's success is not the issue." If that is not the issue then why such insistence in not allowing a good contra-view to the topic link in external links? What motivates the editors to such steely resolve? -Nickbee
Ah, the royal we comes out! "We do not consider it good"? Who is this we? Certainly not the dissenting editors? Or are you and your "cohorts" the Wikipedia? If you represent Wikipedia then I am sure it deserves little respect and possiblly cannot be gaining in popularity. So far it has demonstrated high handedness and arbitrary censorship. -Nickbee
No you cannot see much because you will not allow free expression. Second bombing in Europe and of course it has nothing to do with Islam according to the esteemed editors of Wikipedia who cannot bear to give open links to sites that question the ideology of Islam that is driving people every day to commit suicide and kill innocents. Muslims are doing a good job of showing Islam to the world all on their own. Keep protecting your tiny kindoms on the web. -Nickbee
and of course your site is the only one on the internet providing the insight that London was bombed by Islamist madmen, and not, for example the Wikipedia article, 7/7. Look, if you want to know about the religion, read Islam. If you want to see a discussion of crimes committed in the name of Islam, read Islamist terrorism, ok? These are different topics, that may be linked, but should not be confused. For the same reason, we don't have the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse article under the USA title, the Auto da Fe article under Christianity, the Armenian genocide article under Turkey, or the holocaust article under Germany (yeah, Godwin, I know). dab (ᛏ) 07:02, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
And ofcourse only an unbiased editor like yourself would immediately assume that FFI is my site. FFI is not my site. I read that site like I read any other. I never said that FFI is the only site that discusses Islamist madmen. You are the one that is preventing a link to links about Islam by people who are anti Islam. Again the links are to anti Islam sites and not particular events or themes. As I said you cannot see because you do not want to see. That is alright because as I said the muslims are telling the world about themselves. Which Evil Ideology was Tony Blair referring to in his speech? Where can one find about that evil ideology? Why does it keep getting confused with Islam that Blair and Bush keep telling the world that ideology is not Islam? Are there people who disagree with them? Are there reasons to beleive that Bush and Blair are wrong? Where does one find the link between Islam and that evil ideology? And why is it that so many muslims find it so easy to accept that ideology as Islam? Today 32 mostly muslim children were blown up in Iraq by one of those who " wants to sell his soul to Allah for paradise" (their words!). What is it in Islam that should allow so many suicide bombers ? And you are intent upon censoring links that present a different face of Islam. And you claim to see far? Keep enjoying your little kingdom. -Nickbee
You cannot suggest anything humbly because you are not humble. No need to be a hypocrite. I am not here asking for your understanding but pointing out to the editors here that they are acting as petty bureaucrats and refusing to even provide a link to information about Islam. Not Islamism not Islamist terrorism but Islam. Fascinating that the proclaimed "buddhist" editor will come to declare that "Tamil tigers have fielded more bombers than all the muslim groups put together"! Fascinating that an esteemed editor could demonstrate such fascinating knowledge? May we know the source, because I know enough to state that is totally wrong.
Or is this a type of built in bias that may be expected from the editors? You can keep denying that you do not censor, but your actions and your locked up page speaks volumes. Again you are unable to grasp that the issues are joined not by my interest but by the headlines of newspapers all over the world. People do want to know why so many suicide bombers can justify their acts are justified by Islam, why so many mufti's have sanctioned suicide attacks, and how come the western leaders know more about Islam than so many of the muslim scholars themselves? One of the reason obviously is that we have people in the west like the editors of wikipedia who are busy trying to censor and prevent people from finding information about Islam. -Nickbee
Is it not surprising that Wikipedia does not mind having a page on "Ali Sina" the ex-muslim behind FFI but the bureaucratic editors of wikipedia are unable to bring themselves to link to a good source that he provides? Becasue he is insane? Shouted down? Why? Interesting that it is people who know about Islam and probably are muslims, shias or sunnis who cannot seem to agree upon what should be on the page. And ofcourse a bunch of people who were born into Islam and have decided to leave it and claim that Islam is evil are insane!! But a westerner who is not a muslim knows better and feels entitled to judge and censor even a link to the x-muslims site where they provide links to a 74 sites supporting their views. But ofcourse they are insane!! And you feel entitiled to squash free flow of information to impose that judgement on wikipedia. And by your own admission, you did not know about FFI till it was brought up here, and you linked to it and decided in a few minutes that it is a hate site. People who overcame the fear of Allah and the penalty of death to renounce Islam do not know Islam. They may be wrong, but they do have the right to say that Islam is Evil. They would not have left Islam if they did not think that something was seriously wrong with it, now would they? But you reveal your bias when you state that the proposition "Islam is Evil" is enough to convict someone for insanity!! No wonder you do not grasp the concept of freedom of speech and free flow of information. The questions are being asked by people but wikipedia cannot provide good answers on Islam. Why? -Nickbee
Only a self righteous who is unable to see beyond his tiny domain would consider my request a whine. The irony is not even lost on you is it? Ali Sina can have his page but his views on Islam (not Islamism, not Islamic terrorism) are being censored and suppressed by intellects that are having problems grasping the notion of freedom of speech. Again I have not asked nor am I asking for a change in the content of what the editors consider Islam or its theology, but what I am asking for is a link to a page that voices anti-Islam opinions and the best directory that I know happens to exist at FFI, Ali Sina's website. So the issue is no longer that Wikipedia will not link to Ali Sina but the editors of the Islam page will not link to Ali Sina's page. Interesting! And you still call that this is not censorship and imposition of your own biases? -Nickbee.
This is what the esteemed editor Zora says in defending Censorship by refusing a link to anti Islam sites: "An interesting sidelight. The suicide bomber technology was pioneered by the Tamil Tigers, who have fielded more bombers than all the Muslim groups put together." and provides the source for this statement as "The source is a BBC article I just read, an interview with a professional security analyst asked about the London bombings: [5]. Zora 11:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)". Now the BBC article states: "Indeed the Tamil tigers are statistically the most successful and ruthless practitioners of suicide bombing". I assume the editor does not understand what statistically means. It does not mean that Tamils pioneered suicide bombing and it does not mean that Tamils have fielded more bombers than all the Mulims groups put together!! Is this reflective of the integrity of the editors of the Islam page? Or does this tell us about the level of comprehension that results in snap judgements and attempts at suppressing others POV?
-Nickbee
It is not a question of what I like or I do not like. You are an editor of the Islam page at Wikipedia. You made totally unsupported claims and then found some BBC article which did not support your claims. Now you find another article on frontline. I can argue about it, because Ron was even wrong in 2002 and he certainly is wrong today, but that is not the issue here .. is it? I am asking the editors to restore a link to a web page that contained 74 links to anti Islam sites, and that web page happened to be at FFI, Ali Sina's site. The editors first went into a superiority huff and have made the following claims to avoid acknowledging that their actions are arbitrary and an outrageous example of censorship:
FFI is an insane site but FFI is linked to by other pages of Wikipedia. FFI demeans the credibility of Wikipedia, but FFI is linked to by other pages of Wikipedia. FFI is a hate site but Ali Sina has been mentioned by Wikipedia as a personality of the times and he is an ex-muslim who has very strong views on Islam; Why are you attempting to suppress those views because you do not like them? According to the editors here anyone who says "Islam is evil" is obviously insane ... but the ex-muslims became ex-muslims and that is what most of them tell the world why they left Islam; Why are the editors insisting on implying that most ex-muslims are insane? Why will not the editors of the Islam page at Wikipedia allow a link to directory containing a list of anit-Islam sites? Keep your contents of Islam page as you like, but why deny a link under external links to a page at FFI because you do not like to hear or contempalate what Ali Sina has to say. That is censorship practically be definition. Why do the editors insist on defending this arbitrary excersise of abuse of power delegated to them as editors of the islam page? -Nickbee
Absolutely fascinating! You cannot come up with any real reason why to deny an external link. Courtesy of Wikimedia? I thought it was the courtesy of wikimedia that you are an editor of one of the pages. I am a "custormer". New York times does not pretend to be a Encyclopedia. I am familiar with paper encyclopedias ... are you? You or gren have not addressed the question that why do you insist on censoring information that is anti islam? No one is asking you to add any of Ali Sina's views in your article on Islam which you cannot even keep unlocked courtsey of dedicated Shias and Sunnis. But why do you not allow linking to a web page at his site that provides links to other sites that are anti Islam? Are you guys drowning in so much political correctness that you cannot see your own arrogance? -Nickbee
I do not care about which muslim gets linked or which muslim says what. Please link to any or all pro-Islam sites you like. It is they who cannot decide what is or is not Islam. I am merely asking why links to anti-Islam sites are being suppressed by the editors here. Why? Do you own Wikipedia? Are you an editor of even a minor fraction of pages at Wikipedia? So I think the decision of what Wikipedia should or should not do is beyond your pay grade. As far as I can tell it is the dedicated muslims themselves who are changing the content of the page and that is what has resulted in locking up the page. Why blame the ex-muslims? My hate site? Why does it bother you that ex-muslims call Islam Evil? Many ex-christians call Christianity evil. Are you emotionally unable to even allow a link to a directory at an ex-muslim site? The pettiness and the intellectual bankruptcy of the stance you "guys" are taking is becoming obvious. Keep it up so even the most avid poltically correct groveller will be able to see where you stand. Muslims may not know what is Islam, and are unable to agree on Islam, but you self proclaimed westerners certainly do, and know for certainity in a five minute evaluation that ex-muslims are evil and hateful. Whatever.
why is the article protected? I suppose that enough people are watching it to prevent inappropriate edits for surviving more than a couple of minutes? fwiiw, I do think some slight npoving is necessary. It is nobody's fault that the Islam-critical editors we get always seem to want extreme changes or insert cheap insults. Still, some informed criticism may be appropriate. E.g. the "Contemporary Islam" sections sounds a tad apologetic, beginning with "Although". We have established that there are indeed liberal Muslim organizations, but it is rather questionable whether they conterbalance Islamism in any way. So it would be better to have a brief section about Islamism, and then a brief section about liberal Islam, without attempting to excuse one with the other. dab (ᛏ) 5 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)
Even by taking data from General Sources, like CIA Fact Sheet, we can easily establish that fact that total Muslim Population in 2003 is 1.48 billion which is far greater than currently estimated 1.2 or 1.3 billion. Under general source section, we have taken all the datas from popular sources such as CIA Fact Sheet, HOLT,RINEHART & WINSTON etc.
We think that in some countries the total number of Muslims are more in percentage than shown in general sources, like in China and India. For all those few above cases Islamic Sources, news items and thought provoking articles came in great help. Our reasearch shows that the total Muslim Population is 1.70 billion in year 2003.
( http://www.islamicpopulation.com) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.187.63.91 ( talk • contribs) sometime.
How does that compare to adherents.com? Tom Haws July 7, 2005 23:01 (UTC)
Since it's hard to judge which claim is right, why don't we just show the range of the respectable sources, i.e. say "The Muslim population is estimated anywhere from 1.2 billion to 1.7", or whatever the range is.(---)
On 23 June 2005 I inserted this section:
Other meanings of the word
The word "Islam" is sometimes used as a man's name, for example
Islam Karimov (
president of
Uzbekistan).
Do not confuse with the village of
Isleham in
England.
and 3 minutes later someone removed it, stating this reason: "Other meanings" section not needed. It's pretty obvious info that does not need to be inserted. There are people named christian too but that isn't mentioned in the christianity article. Thanks.
But important words sometimes do have differing secondary meanings, and
Islam Karimov is notable politically.
And the page
Christian DOES have a pointer to
Christian (disambiguation), which lists assorted other meanings of the word "Christian".
Anthony Appleyard
17:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't Islam mean "Faith" not submission? (someone wrote)
The Arabic root s-l-m makes words with many meanings centering on "be safe", "submit", "surrender", etc. Its basic verb salama means "he became safe", "he is safe". Formally, the word 'islām is the infinitive of derived stem IV (= 4) of the root s-l-m; it means "submission". Anthony Appleyard 05:48, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, if necessary, we can have a page Islam (disambiguation). Today, "Islam" simply means Islam. By root etymology it can mean anything from 'faith' to 'sumbission' to 'feeling safe because God is your buddy', I suppose, there is no single correct translation. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a view as to whether the page still needs to be protected? It's been locked for nearly two weeks, so it should probably be unlocked some time soon. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:23, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
Can we unprotect yet? Maybe if the Islam-bashers give us a short break, we can indeed try to insert more material critical of Islam, as long as it is well-founded, and not hateful drivel. As soon as Islam-hyping editors try to insert their biased eulogies, I will immediately take the side of Islam critics. We are here for well-founded analysis, not for spin-doctoring (and no, FFI is not even 'spin doctoring', it's just cheap hate speech). As it is, the fundamentalists are preventing us from getting any serious work done on the article. I want to unprotect it and let them see how far they can get. Editing without consensus is pointless on WP, you are just reverted and hit the 3RR within minutes. Learn to cooperate and to 'write for the enemy', or sit back and watch. dab (ᛏ) 10:42, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay, as a couple of people want it unlocked, and as we're not supposed to protect pages for too long, I've unlocked it, so happy editing. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:52, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to enter any of the heated discussions about religion, just the population numbers.
The section toward the end "The demographics of Islam today" has some numbers that struck me as odd. The last sentence in the first paragraph reads "According to "The Almanac Book of Facts", the overall population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%.".
What is 'the overall population'? And what is 'the last decade?' This of course depends on when 'now' is. Also, what is the Almanc Book of Facts?
The number that set off alarms in my head was 137%. Surely the world hasn't more than doubles in 10 years! The US Census Bureau ( http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html) claims the world population in 1995 was about 5.694 billion, as opposed to 6.451 in 2005. That's an increase of (new-old)/old = 13.3%.
I'm not involved in demographics. But the phrasing of that paragraph, and the citing of a book I never heard of, caught my attention. Especially when online sources like Census are available, maybe one of them should be cited.
OK, now you can start flaming me!
yes, these numbers are obviously wrong. people here have been fighting over demographics for ages now. Population growth is in 3rd world countries, and I am not sure how prestigious it is for either world religion to claim a greater part of the starving masses. It is getting boring. Also, Farhansher, can you not just say according to whom Islam is fastest-growing, and leave it at that, since apparently the claim is disputed? Unless you do that, the article will never be stable. dab (ᛏ) 08:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Hey Zeno, didn't mean to be rude with my revert. But I just want to get a few things clarified. Firstly, if, according to the article, 70% of Albanians are Muslim how can the majority of Albanians are secular / atheist in orientation be true? Are you saying the 70% are only nominally Muslims or the stats are wrong? Whatever it is, it needs to be explained in the article (and a cite provided). and most of the remaining Muslim population adheres to a hedonistic Sufi order Is there a technical definition of hedonistic you are using here? If not, it seems pretty perjorative. I saw nothing in 'Islam in Albania' to explain the hedonist qualifier. Regards, Ashmoo 00:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, regarding the 'and other religion' section. I'm sorry if you feel I have introduced agologetics. I was only trying to remove the repetition and weasel words (however, it should be pointed out etc) that creep into WP articles. I'm surprised you think I'm adding apologetics as the only word I added to the whole section was 'medieval'. All my other changes involved removing repetitions. Also, I don't think I removed any info from the article. The closest I came was taking out some explicit mentions about idolators and the Quran. I'm happy to reinclude this. Ashmoo 00:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
can we have a discussion of why green is the colour of Islam, and maybe also a few words about Muhammad's calendar reform (if I got this right, he set prayer times to not coincide with with astronomical events (sunset, sunrise), so that the impression would not arise that heavenly bodies were adored (as was common over much of Arabia in his days)). the main article Islamic calendar isn't even in the Islam template. The prohibition of intercalary months has some political significance, since it was a matter of political influence which clan got to decide when they were inserted. The role of the new sickle moon should be mentioned, and possibly how it found its way onto Turkish flags. dab (ᛏ) 12:35, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
seeing that ffi.org is a site of an alleged apostate, I suppose the link could be added to Apostasy in Islam, where at least it will be relevant (and there are only two links there so far, so pruning is not yet an issue). I still think it is a hateful website, but as a compromise I think it could be added there (or a see also to Ali Sina). Insisiting to put it here is Wikipedia:Main article fixation. dab (ᛏ) 20:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a POV on Islam held by Ex-muslims and Apostates. Where is that expressed or mentioned on this page? Cannot the ex-muslims get simply an external link to a list of links? Why not? Why attempt to suppress their views on Islam? Personally I do not agree with their views entirely, but I do strongly believe that they deserve a link to their list. -Nickbee
The views of Irshad Manji, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Dr. Yunus Sheik, Robert Spencer, SecularIslam.org, etc. etc. views on Islam at a minimum need a link. Any criticism of Islam is labeled a hate speech here apparently. Apostacy is punishable by death and people are still being put to death for apostacy in muslim countries. So it is not surprising that many of the apostates do not want to be publicising there ID's. But many have. These people do have a point of view and it does need to be heard by people. -Nickbee
How about Robert Spencer, SecularIslam, Dr. Yunus Sheik, and others? Why not link to a list of links provided by Robert Spencer? A list of links to the POV of Ex-muslims is a useful addition to this article. You don't like FFI,fine, why not make a list of links to Ex-muslims and Critical of Islam and give that list? -Nickbee
it is obvious from your answers where your emphasis lies: who cares who converts to what or from what. Why not link to a list of links or provide a directory with a list of links to sites that has a list of sites that are in opposition to Islam. You just do not want to allow the POV of ex-muslims on the page of Islam. Why not add a section on the Islam page about what are the views of ex-muslims on Islam; ex-muslims like Ibn-Warraq, Salman Rushdie, Dr. Yunus Sheik, Irfan Khawaja etc.
gren, The ex-Muslim point of view on Islam is very special as far as Islam goes. It lays out the intent and the practice of Islam from a very special angle. They present the content of Islamic literature and history which is different than the views of christian, jews, hindus, buddhists, etc. who might choose to criticise Islam. As far as I understand they present the same facts as the muslims about Islam but they do emphasise it differently. It is obvious to me after watching some of the changes being added in and reverted on the contents of the page, that the sectarian view within Islam is very healthy and strong. There is no single "Islam" despite the pretense by some of the more established editors. There is the sunni, shia, Ahmeddiya, Ismaili, etc. etc. islam which emphasise different aspects of the scriptures and history. Ex-muslims present a different view of islam and its practices. Nickbee 18:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
seeing that the ffi link added by anonymous IPs, probably by one person ("Nickbee"), and removed by several established editors, it is very clear where consensus lies. Further adding of the link is in violation of policy. The various IPs should be considered on editor, and should be blocked for 3RR. Nickbee, if you create an account, you will at least be heard as one voice. You'll still be outnumbered, but you could look for a compromise. This anonymous edit-warring must stop, however, and I will take it upon myself to block the IPs for 3RR. dab (ᛏ) 07:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
gren, I am a newbie as far as wikipedia goes. I do not know how the various stuff works and what information is available and what the various rules are, but I am slowly learning. Thank you for telling me about the 4 tilda's. I will try it. A couple of the anon ip's are mine. It is because I do not remember to log in when I get to this site. Is there a way to automatically log in? But not all the IP's are mine. I counted about 9 IP's supporting the inclusion of the links critical of Islam. I urge those people to acquire an id. I am not very facile with computers. I am not attempting to cause any trouble, but I do strongly beleive that the Ex-muslims do have something valid to say about islam. I do not agree with everything they say. They have specific things to say about Islam and I wish some of them would contribute to the page under the section of Islam as seen by Ex-muslims. But that view does need at a minimum a link. You guys don't like ffi and condemn it as a hate site, but then how do I go about creating a directory at wikipedia where links to secualarislam.org, Robert spencer's site, Irfan Khawaja's site, irshad manji's site and all the other 74 links at ffi or the various links found at Robert spencer's site can be entered and then a link provided to that directory. If I am to be banned, I will be banned, but I was raised to have complete faith in free speech and the right of people with opposing views to be heard. Nickbee 18:01, 19 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Why do the editors of this page refuse to recognize that Muslim's who have left Islam have a very specific and particular view on Islam? Why is that view being totally and completely ignored here? Is the "hate" being expressed by the ex-muslims for Islam any stronger or different than the hate that the two sides of the abortion debate (the example given in the FAQ by wiki foundation to explain NPOV)? Many ex-muslims do express their rejection of Islam in very strong language but others do not? Zora has given an example of ibn Warraq as a scholarly ex-muslim. Even his take on Islam and questioning of Islam do not find a single line in this article. I have spent time over the last couple of days at Ali Sina's site. A lot of people here find it a hate site! it is a site that does not make any bones about that it considers Islam as Evil and holds the terrorism at present around the globe as a consequence of the teachings of Islam. If you consider those thesis as apriori evil, then FFI is a hate site for you. It is a site that has very very strong views on Islam and that is not hesitant to express it. Often it does not couch its criticism in a language that makes its message any easier to swallow. The point is not whether Ali Sina's site should be given a link or not. The point is that you cannot pretend that the view on Islam is complete in the present day world without considering the Ex-muslim's view on Islam. You can ignore it as you are choosing to do so, but that makes your encyclopedia incomplete and biased. Why is there a confusion between the "Evil ideology" that Tony Blair's government wants to fight and Islam? You want to hide that under Islamicism, and other side topics and pretend that islam has nothing to do with the those who are claiming that they are motivated by Islam and that they are the only true muslims. You pretend that there is no civil war going on within islam and there a people who are battling and killing around the world to win the hearts and minds of the muslims. Look at Zora's comments about the anon Salafi who edited the article yesterday! Why not acknowledge that the islam of the Salafi's is different from the islam of the Sunni's which is different from the islam of the Shia's? Why not allow these different views to be expressed on the islam page? Instead of trying to force a single view of Islam, why not take the NPOV guidelines into consideration and allow a disscussion of the different views of Islam? Nickbee 18:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Yes gren, look at how you treat shia Islam, sunni Islam, salafi islam, etc. You give a main page to Islam as if there is a "Islam" and then you branch off with links to these other pages. The history of Islam as discussed on the page is woefully inadequate. If there was a central acceptable version of Islam why do different sects keep wanting to change what wiki has decided is islam? You keep saying that Ex-muslims do not have special information about islam. But they do have a different interpretation just as the other sects of Islam do. This is all about interpretation is it not? Are you suggesting that all the writings of ibn Warraq do not provide any insight into what is Islam?
Nickbee
18:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Show one post that has been blocked at FFI. Show one person who has been silenced at FFI. Go to FFI and say whatever you like and see if you ever get banned or your post is deleted. Killing apostates is what muslims do everyday in the Islamic world. I am an apostate. I know.
A Kaffir
21:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC)A Kaffir
gren, I thought Ibn Warraq was an outside Scholar!
Zora, Look you do not like FFI, do not allow it, but there are a lot of links and books at their site that should be provided to people who want to know more about Islam. Tell me a way how the links that are on those pages can be provided to the readers here. What is so special about the link to a german site that gets prominance here? Zora you list being at Berkeley. Is this what you learnt at a University famous for Free Speech about free speech? I wish your class mates from Berkeley could see you now.
Farhansher: there is a page on AliSina on Wikipedia. So he is somewhat famous already. Ibn Warraq is an ex-muslim and is considered a scholar and has expressed fairly strong views on Islam and he is still anonymous because he does fear for his life and he has been threatened inneumerable times. Irfan Khawaja was anonymous till very recently and he has published and written on Islam extensively. Being anonymous as an apostate of Islam is not something that discredits a person automatically. Many of the apostates do have families back in Islamic countries where they would be at risk if their apostacy becomes public. I am not trying to defend Ali Sina here, but I have seen testimonials from ex-muslims on his site thanking him and praising him. He does have an audience. As far as I can tell, A. Kaffir is correct, that they do make a big deal about never censoring and/or banning anyone over there. There is a lot of material posted at that site from muslims themselves apparently. Whether you like it or not, the actions of muslims themselves have brought islam to the attention of the general people in the West. UK is suddenly considering making a control list of muslims not allowed in UK similar to the one that exits in USA. One does not have to agree with a word that is said by Ali Sina or his site, but he has a right as far as I can tell in Canada and in the US to say what he does. I am not sure whether European laws would allow him to write the way he does. Europeans apparently are not as strong sticklers for free speech as we across the Atlantic. I am no psychiatrist but an apostate perhaps never really leaves his childhood faith truly and perhaps that explains the nick A. Kaffir? I though Kaffir was not a hate term but an accurate description of one who is not a christian, a jew, a zorastrian, and also not a muslim. I thought there was Sura in the Quran titled Kaffirs.
I still think and believe that some mention of the views on Islam by any of the more well known ex-muslims and links to material by them ought to be part of this page. By insisting on excluding them completely, you are not being neutral about the topic at all, but definately being a partisan. Nickbee 02:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
NPOV on Islam!! LOL! Second bombing in London and Jihad under Islam at Wickipedia: "Striving to seek God's approval (Jihad)" Gimme a break! Jamiat-ul-Islamia could not have a better propoganda page than Wiki's page on Islam. And Gren will tell you that Ex-muslims know nothing about Islam. What a farce! Thankyou for Islamofascism, Nickbee. Couple more bombings and a few hundred dead in Europe and then .... Exmuslim 16:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
Cleaned up the languate surrounding that link (needed to be clearer what it was) but it's NOT a "hate site" as certain POV warriors seem to think. If you disagree, please discuss it in talk before reverting. Existentializer 16:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Zora from Berkeley should love this one. Iraqi women are protesting the new constitution because of the non-existent rights for women under Islamic law Shareeya, and Wiki page on Islam has only one mention of Women: "Muhammad gave rights to women ...." LOL!! This is the NPOV of Wiki? And Ex-muslims do not know anything about Islam, Gren? And Zora the buddhist is busy enforcing suppression of Women under Islam. Is that a new Zen Koan? Exmuslim 17:01, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
Todays Asia Times states:Fighting the uncivil fight. European Union officials, not to mention Europe-wide public opinion, are starting to confront a very serious question: how to fight jihad inside the EU without infringing on civil liberties, thereby playing into the jihadis' hands. -"This message is the final warning to European states. We want to give you a one-month deadline to bring your soldiers out from the land of Mesopotamia." - Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, July 16 What fighting Jihad? You mean someone wants to fight "Striving to seek God's approval?" LoL! Wiki's NPOV? No, No, hide the if and buts in sublinks and sub pages. On the front keep the "Striving to seek God's approval" and "rights of Women". Italy after August 16? Or will it be Denmark striving to seek God's approval in 3 weeks time? Exmuslim 17:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC) Ex-muslim
Todays Christian Science Monitor: "Some of the people tell you Islam is a religion of peace because they think that then you'll want to convert," says Dublin-born convert Khalid Kelly, who soaks up Abu Osama's sidewalk sermon. "But you cannot possibly say Islam is a religion of peace; jihad is not an internal struggle." "How dare anyone come on television and say suicide bombings are not part of our belief?" And a lot more on how Brits are going to get killed by other brits, and Gren and coterie tell us that Ex-muslims know nothing about Islam. How are the people ever going to understand Islam and what it is doing? That does not concern the dhimmis and Islamofascists at Wikipedia. Hate? Europe has not seen hate yet, but it is beginning to. Ask the Indians, they will tell you about hate. Ask the arab christians, they will tell you about hate. NPOV at wiki on Islam? LOL! Exmuslim 18:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
This from this weeks Time Magazine, Irshad Manji, an Ex-muslim speaking: "The student shifted uncomfortably. She just couldn't bring herself to examine my suggestion seriously. And I suppose I couldn't expect her to. Not when Muslim leaders themselves won't go there. Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general for the Muslim Council of Britain, is an example. In the midst of a debate with me, he listed potential incentives to bomb, including "alienation" and "segregation." But Islam? God forbid that the possibility even be entertained.
That is the dangerous denial from which mainstream Muslims need to emerge. While our spokesmen assure us that Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism, those who commit terrorist acts often tell us otherwise." NO NO NO, what would an Ex-muslim know about Islam that Wiki on Islam does not already explain! Link to an Ex-muslim POV ..... Hate hate hate Site, But the 600 suicide bombers of Iraq, the dead in England, the killing in India .... that is not hate. NO not hate at all ... that is "alienation" that is "segregation" that is "marginalization"!! Islam ... Oh that is ever so a peaceful religion. LOL! NPOV of wiki? Ex-muslims have no POV on Islam says the Edddditors. Exmuslim 19:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-Muslim
Wiki policy states talk out the differences under "Talk". But no one chose to respond to obvious NON-NPOV stance of Mirv, Zora, Grenavitor, Yusuf, and Faransher (have not seen dab lately) who insist on imposing their POV as the only one that exists. "One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists By Anthony King (Filed: 23/07/2005)" from telegraph.co.uk. How misleading can be "Islam does not say anything. People say things about Islam" : Grenavitor. Taqqiya all the way, but the body bags are starting to tell people that islam does say things that you all are busy suppressing here. But not for long. Read Andrew Bolt at the Herald Sun in Australia: "It's time we accepted the difficult truth: many of the Muslims we invite to live in Australia want to destroy us. FOR four years, since the September 11 attacks, I've begged our Islamic leaders to drive extremists from their mosques. For four years I've also reassured you that most Muslims here are moderate...." Read it all. Islam does say things, Gren. What it says is just not very pretty. Exmuslim 18:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-Muslim
Respectfully disagree. BrandonYusufToropov 16:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC) And I respectfully tell you that you are utterly wrong Yusuf. Exmuslim 16:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim
An anon added a passage to the section on Islam and other religions by saying, in effect, "yes, but sura 9 was revealed after non-Muslims had been picking on the Muslims". The section is just a pointer to the main article, and not the place to go into apologetics -- and I also think that many traditionalist Muslims wouldn't agree that parts of the Qur'an should be ignored because "that was then and this is now". Just adding that one sentence is lame apologetics. Perhaps the anon could go to the main article on Islam and other religions and make sure that his/her point is expressed there. Zora 07:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Hello I can't see where else to put in this comment but describition of Sikhism in the Islam and other religions is factual incorrect in terms of what Sikhs and scholar of Sikhism have evidence for. Sikhism what not born out of a schism between local Muslims and local Hindu communities, nor can be described as the "sword arm of Hinduism". Apologies if this the wrong place to post. Otherwise can we sort this out this whole dispute people big hug !
[ [3]]
Looks like a different anon. BrandonYusufToropov 15:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
In fact, I think any and every article about a controversial subject should have such a section or companion article. Islam certainly qualifies.
I think the "house of war" and the Islamic distinction between civilians and combatants, if any, as well as myriad other subjects, are worth presenting here.
side note: there are many logical absurdities proffered on this page, but one above stuck out for me, the idea that an editor is "proven" biased because he's interested in criticizing one historical figure (in this case a Muslim one), but not interested in criticizing others (in this case, non-Muslim ones).
That's blog-logic, not real logic. It's a common error that seems only to be trotted out against a certain subset of ideas. There are many books that criticize Christianity and its history, in fact it's a cottage industry. No one ever accuses the authors of bias just because they don't devote equal time to the criticism of Jews and Muslims.
Wiki Editors are not interested or "Burnt out", I cannot say which, but they have not bothered replying to Ex-Muslims objections on ignoring Wiki's NPOV. Unwilling to consider any objective view on Islam, considering the "Western" view on Islam as anathema, their righteousness declares the voice of Ex-muslims as "hate"; which neatly fits into the muslim law of silencing the Apostates one way or the other. The all knowing Wiki's editors are enforcing the silencing of Ex-muslims and their views. Terrorism is associated with Islam at present, and there is not a mention of that on this page of Islam. Ali Sina's voice is to be suppressed by Muslims like Grenavitar at any cost. If Ali Sina is correct on Islam then suppressing his voice is a crime. If Ali Sina is a paranoid then who cares. One in 4 muslims in the West hates the West, is that a lie as well? A Kaffir 19:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)AKaffir.
It still needs to be addressed and allowed to continue........people who would seek to know more about Mohammed and Islam are entiteled to have access to the very type of criticisms that may arise, due to the fact that the 7th century critics no longer exist and their story can not be fully explored, it makes good sense to allow these criticisms to re-emerge for seekers of information about Islam to compare the issues that existed in yester-year and in today's world. Islam's Quran is not a closed book, nor is the issue of criticism that it appears is a larger part of it's very reason for existing a closed matter. Mohammed may have deemed the matter closed/locked-thread with his "revelations" and "final word of god", not so those who would seek to continue their "revelations" of opinion and criticism, some on hehalf of their ancestors who may well have been targets of quran's punishing guidances. As we have muslim editors here at Wikipeadia who might seek to silence the critics of Mohammed and his Islam, in affect a form of emulating 7th century doctrine and practise, so too we have people here who take the other view as was the case in 7trh century Arabia. Question is, what are the muslims here so afraid of in being so apparently obstinently persistent in seeking to silence the critics? (unsigned by 211.27.142.217)
People, please sign your talk-page posts!
Ok, for those who don't remember or wasn't around: There was an article on this. It was created back in 2002 but was deleted quite recently, on June 18, 2005. See (but don't edit) the debate on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Criticism of Islam. The content of the article the last months was just an intro reading:
That was all the content after almost 3 years of revert-wars and bickering on the talk-page. And then there was a long list of external links to various web sites. I was the one nominating it for deletion on June 5, for which I not only was flamed for being a Islamist (I'm not a muslim, trust me...) but also accused of having invited my islamists friends to vote (I don't even know any muslims). Anyway, I still stand by my nomination. But after seing some other and actually quite good "criticism" articles on other topics, I'm not completely against it myself if it can be made NPOV and encyclopedic. But at the very least come up with some lasting agreable "criticism" content in this, the Islam article, first before thinking about spawning it out to it's own "criticism" article again. If people really feel like going for it I sugest using this talk-page to come up with and agree on content (content, not just links) to avoid further revert-wars. Shanes 08:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
. . .has lead to protection of the article. Discussion here doesn't seem to be moving towards any kind of consensus and has gone far off the track. I've put up a summary of past arguments and a recap of the two views on the faithfreedom links on Talk:Islam/External links; if we concentrate on the discussion there, maybe we can reach some kind of consensus. If not, then perhaps it's time to hold a poll. — Charles P. (Mirv) 16:01, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Nickbee 17:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
While it's true that there are various "islamic" views, many of the overstrict views are clearly wrong and unislamic, and need not be in this article. Saying that these views need to be represented is like saying that the Nazi and KKK views must be represented in the Christianity page. They really don't.
Robert Spencer's "Jihad Watch" is racist and xenophobic in the extreme. Is it really appropriate to have it link to the Islam page?
It is not racist and xenophobic at all. Why don't you give an example of Robert's racism and xenophobia? You should be able to find something from his extensive site and books. Please give an example. If you cannot then don't slander.
The city of Qom is by far one of the holiest places for Shiites, this city should be added to the "Holy Cities" section.
thank you
Hi guys
Well every question has an answer , as there is no effect without causality .
The answer is right here , see for your self .
As you might have guessed , this is the tip of ice berg . A lot is going on , under cover . Being the followers of a cult , they dont show their intentions . This is why they use PM & not talk about it on forums now . These so called good faith editers are running a whole Project Wikipedia to attack each & every page associated with Islam . This has been happening under our noses for not less then 6 months , & now its officially made a project .
There was a thread there which has been deleted by Sina . So for the benifit of all sane thinking people , I have added these threads to WP , so that if some muslim hacks FFI , & by some coincidence only these threads are deleted ( as Sina says ) , then these will be present as an evidence on WP .
Now ,
I was also thinking for some time what happened to all venom spitting Sina-philes , & why are we now having some decent looking people wanting to add their links to WP . Well that is also in the Sinan recommenddations of "How to attack WP" . U can all see Zeno's edits at Muhammad , & Jihad . The pressure to add a picture of Muhammad , pressure to add cresent as a symbol of Islam , Pressure to call Jihad bin nafs some mythical concept popularised by Sufis . Still in Jihad article , Zeno has changed " Ibn taymia, scholar of classical Islam " to " Ibn taymia , The classical, militant scholar of Islam " . Dont you think he could have easily changed to "Ibn taymia , the founder of Salfi thought in Islam . " Do you think its coincidence , or lack of knowledge......nooooo , its called Agenda .Similarly nickbee , who just came here , saying he doesnt accept all that Sina says , but has has written lenthy posts pressurising to add their link . Would any body who doesnt care waste so much time on adding links , He also brought two well known trolls from FFI to back him up . May be its the new strategy , work in clans , one carrot two sticks , & a lot of anon IPs .
If we dont do something , these attacks will occur again & again , week after week , month after month . Its a big waste of time & energy . When I came here , I wanted to add some info about mysticism here . I havebeen here for 5 months now , I have done nothing yet . Why ?? each time I log on to the site , I see Islamophobic cyber terrorists , wrangling to add a picture of Burraq ( like its gonna improve the Quality of article ), or to add a huge unverifiable list of Muhammad's slaves . All in the sugar coating of freedom of speech , childern , fairness , Npov etc . When nothing works they come back to their roots , rants & insults , & the favourites include "appeal to freedom of speech" again . This is going nowhere .
Its now very easy to understand , pename , aldowi , wibidabi , peterchahabi , enviroknot , hate islam , urchid , clt fn , zeno of elea , extensliser , nickbee , a kaffir , ex muslim , Qasim666 .....................& lots of anon IPs , now you guys know where they are coming from .
Any ways , My recommendations ,
The choice is ours to make !!!!
Peace Farhansher 20:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
This is paranoia. Do you intend to block all who support letting the Ex-muslims express their view point? Are you planning on making it a litmus test that anyone who posts at FFI cannot contribute at Wikipedia? You charge me with deception; did you bother reading the post by Qasim where is posting the letters by SlimVirigin from Wikipedia?
[20] I was blocked as well. Qasim apparently is a well meaning supporter of FFI, and he does question Islam's fundamentals. You can and obviously do beleive that Jihad means "cleanse oneself spiritually" and not "holy war"( aka kill all infedils ), but hopefully you are willing to accept that there are many muslims who do include "holy war" as part of the meaning of jihad. And I do not agree with Ali Sina's site or all his opinions. I would be a brainless idiot, if I did. But I do not consider his site to be a "hate site". Qasim felt safe enough to go and post his frustration there right away. Did you notice that it was his first post at that site? It means he expected to find "kindered spirits" there. That is the strenght of free speech, atleast in the good ole USA. Do you seriously think that you are going to be able to restrict the opinions of those questioning Islam and its connection to current events as being reflected in the writings of many many authors and journalists around the world away from wikipedia? What kind of an encyclopedia would that be?
Nickbee
20:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I don't understand why we have to put up with this. Wikipedia clearly has a policy to remove Personal Attacks. Farhansher's accusing any number of editors of being part of a "mass conspiracy" clearly qualifies. Will someone explain why this section has to remain? Ni-ju-Ichi 03:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I find this Ali Sina "conspiracy" to be very intriguiging. So much so that I have started my own "conspiracy": SIIEG (pronounced "siege"), the Secular Islamic Information Editors' Guild. Please join! -- Zeno of Elea 03:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gren, ABC is not a source for Islamic Information, and I never intended to give it as one. I wanted to show that we live in an environment, in a time, where certain aspects of Islam are being highlighted and I tried giving different sources to demonstrate. The vandalism by those who are unable to participate in a dialog is also clear. The point is that an Encyclopedia needs to give unbiased information to all sides. It cannot and must not ignore one side merely because it is not comfortable. When the secualr muslim is writing in a London newspaper and saying that there are no "moderate" muslims, why cannot we accept that there is a view of islam that is being put forward by the secualr muslims and ex-muslims. What is that view? Why do we have to hide it? Why cannot we acknowledge it? You cannot dismiss the secular muslims, the ex-muslims as two bit nobodies. I have never suggested quoting Ali Sina or using him as an authority. He has a directory of links and a directory of books that are useful sources. Do you consider Taslima Nasrin as a two bit hack as well? How about Salman Rushdie?
Nickbee
04:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Thank you at least acknowledging that there is a view that represents secular muslims and ex-muslims. Now to the question, what it is: Why not let them speak for themselves? Have you visited Taslima's site? You tell me what would be a good way to include their view on Islam? You think keep ignoring them is the way to go? As the writer from london says that they are opposed by muslims, and hence lable them as Kaffirs and exclude them from islam? Is that the way to go? It is not tit for tat, excluded islamic sites and hence no contra islamic sites are to be included. That is not logic at all. That is mere stubborness. Nickbee 04:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zora, please please try to listen. I hear you but I do not think you are listening. The directories you link to do not give links to views Contra to Islam at all. As Zeno stated it puts some of the contra sites 4 clicks away. It is not an issue of "even-handed-ness", it is not a question of favorite site. It is a matter that there is a strong POV of Islam that is dumbfounded by reading on Wikipedia Islam's page that Jihad means "striving to win God's approval" (please read ex-muslims comments; although I do not agree with his over the top sarcasm) or excluding mention of "holy war" for instance. The DMOZ directory can hardly be called "anti-islam". Again, FFI is not my favorite site. Please look at yourself; you guys are behaving so clubby and unwilling to listen to any "outsider". I was charged as a sock puppet and blocked. Apparently so were the others. You are now convinced that I am from FFI. I have told you before and I tell you again, you do not like FFI, fine but what about the 70 odd links in the directory at FFI. Where should we put them so they can be linked? You dismiss FFI as a hate site and do not want to link to it. But look at the news, listen to the leaders around you, listen to the people around you, and they are saying things about Islam that you do not want to even link to let alone suggest that they exist. Please read the link to the Muslim who wrote in the london press. What kind of Islam is he talking about? Why does Wiki's page on Islam pretend that that aspect of Islam does not exist? You are pretending that secular muslims like ibn Warraq do not exist. This is what ibn Warraq says: "The jihad that the Western world faces today is identical in its motivations and goals to that which Europe managed to stave off almost a thousand years ago thanks in large part to the Crusades of which the West is now ashamed. In this book, Robert Spencer tells the truth that few in the U.S. or Europe wish to face. Today's jihad, as Spencer illustrates here, is proceeding on two fronts: one of violence and terror, and another of cultural shaming and the rewriting of history. Here is a devastating riposte to that revisionism -- and a clarion call for the defense of the West, before it is too late." -- Ibn Warraq, author of Why I Am Not A Muslim and editor of Leaving Islam and What the Koran Really Says. On the christianity page, there is a link to Russels, "Why I am not a christian", but on the Islam page your club is bending over backwards to avoid stating the known criticism of Islam. Not one word from Warraq's "What the koran really says"!! How come? Please think carefully and listen to what I am saying. Have you read Warraq's "What the koran really says"?
Nickbee
05:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Excellent. So do I. I am not religious as well. But I do not despise you in the least because of it. Do you understand what "cultural shaming and the rewriting of history" Warraq might be talking about? Page-blanking and ranting crowd are self defeating idiots from which ever site they are from. I have now spent some time at FFI over the last few weeks, and I assure you that they have their share of nuts as well. Anonymity does seem to bring out the flamer in many a young hot blooded kids for some reason. Where will the section on Contemprary Islam go? Please let me know if I can be of any help in putting it together. Please, please do think about the "anti-islam" links on the main page and take a little time to look at the DMOZ list and see how inadequate it is to represent the secular islam's POV. Nickbee 06:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
ok, so now we know all these anons doing nothing but add the ffi link are not sockpuppets, but editors-by-proxy coordinated via the ffi forum. Guys, you are in good company. the Neo-Nazis tried a very similar stunt some time ago, to "remove pro-jewish bias". Guess what, wikipedia hasn't turned into an antisemitic hate site. Strangely, decent good faith editors are not known to have resorted to such tactics. So what we'll do now to put an end to this is a poll. See Wikipedia:Voting. The poll shall be open for ten days, and close on 6 August, 7:00 UTC.
dab (ᛏ) 06:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Despite having voted earlier, this poll is invalid.
From Wikipedia:Voting: Consensus must be reached about the nature of the survey before it starts. As we have seen, Dab did not ask for a consensus on anything before creating the poll, and he is now engaging in striking through the votes of real editors on entirely arbitrary criteria.
This is bad faith and the poll is invalid. Existentializer 15:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Please keep comments short with no sub-comments
do you think the Islam article in "external links" should link to http://faithfreedom.org/
Wynler 21:47:48, 2005-08-04 (UTC)
do you think the Islam article in "see also" should link to Ali Sina ?
____________
In order to speed things up, I have decided to withdraw my objections to the poll and have reverted the talk page to before the dispute began. -- Zeno of Elea 10:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
If anyone thinks that cancelling user votes because of the number of votes, or scaring away newbies by blocking them and asking for personal information, and then trying to go through the motion of a poll is going to resolve anything, allow me to let you in on common sense: it is not going to work. All this will result in is more bickering, intensive bickering, and enhancing passions all around. Think about it. A genuine compromise and adopting a real wiki NPOV attitude will not hurt. The rest is up to you. It is obvious that Wiki will eventually have to adopt some kind of a real editorial control on the Islam related pages. That is good, because then they will answer to some "real" interest groups. This page will not continue to read like a dawa pamphlet for very long. Nickbee 05:32, 7 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
well, once we have a "critics" section in see also, and we are swamped with links to notable and respected critics, we can still unlink Sina. At the moment, it is true that there are not too many critics mentioned. Sina is rather a parody of a critic, and his smearing probably does Islam more good than harm, since I doubt he makes an impression on anyone not already violently anti-Islamic. Anyway, bring on the links to more notable critics. dab (ᛏ) 07:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Muslim women are awra. They are objects of shame.
" "Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrat). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten."[Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy'a ] Awra is pudendum, something to be ashamed of, something to hide. Pudendum is female's external sex organ. That is what Muslim women are according to Muhammad.
When I see a normal woman, I see a human being. When I see a Muslim woman, all I see is a big genital walking. She acts as if her entire body is a vagina that has to be hidden, protected, because it is an object of shame and embarrassment. How can you be proud of this image that you portray to the world? "
He is quoting a hadiath, a statement by the son in law of Muhammad. Keep in mind that this is cultral where men are supposed to eternal erections in heaven and women are ten female genitalia. I have not taken the trouble to find whether is qoute of the hadiath is accurate or not, but I would bet that it is. So you see it is not he who is saying that women should be covered from head to toe in body bag, but he is putting it in context for a muslim that he is communicating, trying to get through the cultral assumptions with shock value. What do you think of women under the Taliban rule where if the cultral police could see a woman's ankle under that "Burqha" or body bag when he knelt or laid down to examine if she was properly covered, she could be in for a severe beating for "exhibitionism"? How would you explain such absurd and obsessive behavior? What do you think when you see women covered in "body bags" hiding in the shadows? So I do not have a problem with Ali Sina's statement of 96% vagina in the context that he is making. What is that you are objecting to? He is talking to his constituency, in the language that he thinks is most effective. He seems to be on the side of liberating women and getting muslim women into the modern era, and not trying to keep them enslaved and covered in body bags. Please tell me if I am missing something here? Nickbee 17:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I am glad that the link to the ffi main page seems to be out of the picture, that was what started the whole mess, after all. If there is a simple majority favouring the addition of the ffi links page, I'll be happy to add it. I am considering moving my vote to abstain as a gesture of good faith, since the ffi links page isn't so much worse than the dmoz one after all.
dab
(ᛏ)
19:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure about some of the yes votes. Surely there can be an Opposition to Islam article, and we could link it from the see also, plus, the ffi link would be much less controversial there. Yes, if there is Opposition to Mormonism, there can also be Opposition to Islam, no question about that. But note that this is not the Opposition to Islam article. Sure, all povs belong on WP, but not all websites, WP is not a linkfarm. I am not objecting to the link because it is critical of Islam. I am objecting because it is too vitriolic and unacademic. This Sina is really too wound up in his hate and frustration to know his ass from his elbow, let alone criticism from slander. Maybe if we had a good, decent "Criticism" section, we wouldn't need to argue over such things, and I wouldn't need to be called names by our esteemed Islamophobic editors for objecting to this particular link.
what does it tell us that we have so many outspoken critics of Islam, going to the point of obstruction to have their way with the ffi link, while none of them has seen it worth their time to compile a decent Opposition to Islam article? What does that tell us about their dedication to the Wikipedia project, or their notion of encyclopedicity. You want your views represented? Write articles about them, don't troll existing articles of marginal relevance. Once you have finished your critical articles, ask for links to them here. dab (ᛏ) 07:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
re, goose and gander, there is one link under "Criticism" on Christianity, an essay by Nobel laureate Bertrand Russell. If we restrict the Criticism links to Nobel prize winners here also, I would have no objections whatsoever. Oh wait, then we wouldn't have any links at all. Well, at least we should restrict links to essays of quality and decency at least remotely approaching Russell's. dab (ᛏ) 08:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Dab, your criticism of Ali Sina is a little warped. You do not disagree with his stands but you disagree with his "presentation" to his audience? He is talking to muslims in general, and in particular those who hate the west. So he discusses things in a way that might be addressing their fears and their icons, and not trying to be manipulative by trying to be friendly, sweet and sugary. Because he does not address himself to "your" academic standards, he is not a fit spokesperson for the entire secular muslim community? You certainly have a definite view of what is appropriate in this world, and little room for doubts? I have searched and I did not find a call to murder, violence, bomb, destroy, kill, maime, segregate, etc. by Ali Sina. By your criteria, Muhammed whose Islam this page is covering, should not be covered because he is one who said the women are 10 "awrat", now low class can you get? How do you tell the followers of a prophet who was not pleased with some because they were not beheading the vanquished kaffirs with enthusiasm, about the facts of their prophets life, as he sees them? Especially if you took a life time to shake that belief yourself? I think your objections to FFI being "low class" are your own bias and hangup. It is not your POV but the POV of exmuslims and secular muslims that needs to placed on the Islam page. Again I do not care whether you link to FFI or not; as I stated figure out a way to link to the list of links given by FFI for anit-islam or list of links provided by Spencer to 'anti-islam' sites. I do find it amazing that a significant fraction of those who call themselves muslims (and gren look at the YouGov survey by Anthony King that Exmuslim cited) support a mass muderer Osama, and support terrorism, and a site that opposes them and questions their ideology is the site you find objectionable because it does not meet your literary criteria? Nickbee 18:19, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Gren, the issue is not whether "YOU" find ffi encyclopediac standard or not. The issue is that ex-muslims and secualr muslims is a movement within Islam that finds it hard to be in the open because of the harsh "death penalties" imposed upon those who attempt to question Islam from within the muslim community. You necessarily end up with few "weird" souls who are willing to risk their lives. That is why Ibn Warraq identity is not known. That is why Dr. Yusuf Sheik did not voice his apostacy while on death row in Pakistan for 3 years. That is why Ali Sina is anonymous. So you tell how should this encyclopedia reflect that and provide a voice to that segment or variety of Islam on the Islam page? It is obvious that the muslim editors will oppose providing a voice to the secular muslims. At the moment, whether we like it or not, the ex-muslims and the secular muslims voice is clearest at FFI. Go ahead give me a reason why do you call it a hate site. Dab does not like it because it is "low class". It obviously does not have the "blue blooded accent" of academicians. What is your objection? Has FFI backed violence, segregation, nuking, etc.? A congressman of USA just recently suggested that mecca should be nuked. Does that mean wikipedia should not link to the US congress? What is it that you find so overwhelmingly objectionable to FFI? Remember we are here to report and not take sides and judge. We report what is Islam and not what we want it to be or what its supporters want it to be. I do not like FFI but I am not willing to support squelching the voices of the ex-muslims and the secular muslims. Nickbee 18:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
Is this poll fair? I was called a sock puppet and blocked from editing, and I had to actively pursue getting unblocked. I notice Qasim666, an ex-muslim, was also blocked and he was not a sock puppet. He could have been a contributor on "Islam" had he been given an oppertunity. Similarly, I notice that A kaffir, and Billal were blocked after having been charged as sock puppets. I have no clue whether they tried and were unable to gain a voice here or not. But anyone who attempted to support FFI links was automatically considered a sock puppet. The bias is clear. So perhaps before this poll concludes, we should clear up the bias against FFI, a mediocre site at best. We do not have to like FFI to recognize it as a legitimate site of secular muslims and ex-muslims. What are the criteria by which Wikipedia decides the worthiness of a site? FFI is not porn site. It does not support mass murder. It does not support Al-Qaeda and its mass murder ideology. Where are the rules according to which we are to judge the worthiness of FFI as site? Nickbee 18:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Why is my vote crossed out by you, DAB? Exmuslim 22:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim Not much of a chance to contribute so far. I tried engaging but no one cared to answer under NPOV. SlimVirgin wrapped my knuckles for unacceptable language. Now my vote does not count? Real open system, I say. Looks very familiar .... Islamic democracy? Exmuslim 22:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim
dab, if Wikipedia is not a "link farm" (as you claim) and if the Islam article is not an appropriate places for a link to a directory of websites that are critical of Islam, then why do we link to the DMOZ Islam direoctyr, which lists every manner of apologetic Islamic websites? Let's be clear here - this is not a debate over whether or not to include a list of websites that are critical of Islam, this is a debate over WHICH list or lists to include. If it were a debate over the very existance of a link to a critical website directory, then you should have made your poll about whether or not to delete ALL links to ALL website directories. Instead you SEEM to be advocating merely deleting all links to all directories of websites that are critical of Islam (a clear double standard). --
Zeno of Elea
01:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that's an utter misrepresentation. The situation is:
As far as I'm concerned, a single link to dmoz would be enough. However, we add a gartuitous link to the anti-Islamic subsection, to accomodate anti-Islamic editors. I see no reason to add the ffi links link on top of that, beyond a desire of the people frequenting that site to drive more traffic to it. dab (ᛏ) 10:26, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
DMOZ contra link subdirectory is not good enough and that has been pointed out by zeno before. I was asking for one lousy link to a list of links on an ex-muslim site so the views of secular and ex-muslims could be represented. The fact is that the page does read like a pamphlet from your friendly imam. I think [User:Shanes] advice should be heeded: "That was all the content after almost 3 years of revert-wars and bickering on the talk-page. And then there was a long list of external links to various web sites. I was the one nominating it for deletion on June 5, for which I not only was flamed for being a Islamist (I'm not a muslim, trust me...) but also accused of having invited my islamists friends to vote (I don't even know any muslims). Anyway, I still stand by my nomination. But after seing some other and actually quite good "criticism" articles on other topics, I'm not completely against it myself if it can be made NPOV and encyclopedic. But at the very least come up with some lasting agreable "criticism" content in this, the Islam article, first before thinking about spawning it out to it's own "criticism" article again. If people really feel like going for it I sugest using this talk-page to come up with and agree on content (content, not just links) to avoid further revert-wars. Shanes 08:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)" I had requested the link to the directory of links at FFI to give a voice to the secular and ex-muslims viewpoint. I have been stating it again and again that personally I don't give a hoot for FFI or a link to it. Requesting a mere lousy one link to the voices of secular and ex-muslims was the minimum that I thought would not be begrudged by the editors of wikipedia. Obviously I was wrong. The choke hold of the information being supplied by the editors on Islam is biased and far from a NPOV policy of wikipedia. Providing a link or not providing a link will not stop the bickering as Shanes already points out. I think his suggestion to come up with an agreement on the CONTENT and not just the links ought to be taken up. Once the content has been decided, the links will become irrelevant. In that spirit, I am starting the suggestions for changes in the content of the page. Nickbee 17:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
As there is a marked tendency of ex-Muslims to be opposed to Islam (much greater than the tendency of those who convert between Christian faiths or away from other faiths) a section of notable ex-Muslims might be in order.
How about we start a list of names who may or may not be worthy of being on the list?
Ali Sina
Walid Shoebat
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Feel free to add more as they come to mind.
Existentializer
16:43, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq
Anwar Sheik
Dr.
Yusuf Sheikh
Salman Rushdie
Taslima Nasrin
Irfan Khawaja
Nickbee
17:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Adding the terrorists and Saddam would be like going to Christianity and showcasing the Dominican Order, which "saved" Spain through the torture and murder of millions. Or the masterminds of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, led by the Catholic church. Or even better, the multitude of "heroes" who orchestrated the Siege of Jerusalem (1099) which left not a single person alive, man, woman, child, Jew, Muslim or Christian. Not recent enough? How about Adolf Hitler or the Ku Klux Klan?
Still think there's a trend in Islam that's not in Christianity? If you feel the need to exact justice, go put all these on the Christianity page, which right now is lacking in negativity. Or is your justice only applied to religions you don't like?
Don't take my comments as negative to Christianity, which is a religion I love. Just using it to make a point. Cunado19 16:48, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
To get the topic rolling:
Please add your suggestions in a constructive and helpful way. We can make this page the best page on Islam available at any encylopedia. Nickbee 17:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
" Striving to seek God's approval (Jihad). See Also Jihad Notes: The Egyptian Islamic Jihad group claims, as did a few long-extinct early medieval Kharijite sects, that Jihad is the "sixth pillar of Islam." Some Ismaili groups consider "Allegiance to the Imam" to be the so-called sixth pillar of Islam. For more information, see the article entitled Sixth pillar of Islam."
on jihad and the only sentence containing the word women is "Muhammad's insistence that women have God-given rights that no human being may legally infringe upon." And that is it!!! No one finds that absurd?
Look at the link I have given for Jihad, and it is from the muslim students in Canada, and it is by the founder of Muslim Brotherhood and he is calling it the sixth pillar of Islam. Taliban called it the sixth pillar of Islam. The note suggesting that only the Islamic Jihad group and a few long-extinct is just plain inaccurate. Mawdudi is also on record in calling jihad the sixth pillar. Islam is what it is. We should tell the facts as they are. Why cannot we do that?
I am not suggesting that the Islam page become a topic on Jihad or Women in Islam but a couple of sentences that address the topic in a forthright manner and with a link to the subsidiary page. What is wrong with that? Then you go to the page on Jihad and you find there is no mention of Hassan Al Banna, Mawdudi, Qutb, etc, the people who defined what jihad is as being practiced by Al-Qaeda. What is wrong in asking for and expecting an honest and straightforward view of the proponents and of the critics laid out clearly and succinctly? Nickbee 04:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
besides websites that I consider hilarious, but less-than-academic [25] ("Attack of the Mujahid Tomatoes"), well, the Internet may not be the best place for that (there's books, remember?), but what about this: [26], [27]. It's biased, it knows it is biased and it is lucid, coherent and doesn't indulge in ranting. Can you believe it? Rational criticism, no ranting about pedophilia or evil moon cults, or sinister armies of haters of freedom. Critics of Islam: more like this, please. dab (ᛏ) 17:49, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
[copy-paste of ffi links section by 65.144.45.127 ( talk · contribs) removed]
Hi!
I wonder if this guild is anything that you may benefit from, and in that case, feel invited to sign in :)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild
Have a good day :)
-- Striver 01:37, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, I wrote a new section on contemporary Islam. It's way too long, but I'm too tired to try to cut it down. Let's see what others think of it in its current form. Still needs some wikifying and a list of terrorist incidents (I didn't know the exact titles of the articles). Zora 09:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Most contemporary Muslims still live in Muslim-majority countries. Many of these countries recognize an official relationship between the state and the Islamic faith, though the details of that relationship vary dramatically from country to country. Mosque-state relations run the gamut from Turkey (an aggressively secularist country) to Iran (where the state is run by the Shi'a clergy). Some of the countries that grant a special status to Islam are still relatively tolerant of other faiths; others, like Saudi Arabia, forbid the practice of anything other than the official Wahabi (or Salafi) faith.
There are also some countries, like India, where there is a sizable and long-established Muslim minority. All these countries are part of the old Dar-ul-Islam, the Muslim realm.
Muslim life and belief in the Dar-ul-Islam, the world of Islam, is shaped by centuries of tradition. In many cases, that tradition is heavily Sufi-influenced. Traditional Islam often consists not only of Fridays at the mosque, but also of pilgrimages to the shrines of Sufi saints, membership in traditional Sufi orders, and the leadership of Sufi teachers.
This syncretic, tolerant Sufi-influenced Islam is on the defensive. Various reform movements, such as the Salafi or Wahabi and the Deobandi, have denounced this traditional Islam as idolatrous (shirk) and an innovation (bid'ah) upon the "pure" Islam of Muhammad's time. They turn their backs upon the rich tradition of Muslim figurative and decorative art and build mosques as plain as warehouses. They tear down the tombs of saints, forbid community celebrations of Mawlid (Muhammad's birthday), and stress a strict legalism rather than Sufi mysticism. This movement is far from unified. There are many currents within it. However, the Saudi Arabian Wahabi tendency has been dominant, thanks to the torrent of Arabian petrodollars that has been diverted to missionary work and the building of mosques and schools in many countries throughout the world.
Another strain in contemporary Islam is liberalism. Islamic liberals are recasting Islam in a form that they feel is fully modern, fully compatible with living an ordinary life in a Western-style secular state. Islamic liberals tend to have had Western-style educations, to respect Western secular learning, and to reject what they see as ossified traditions and repressive, antiquated clerical establishments. They argue that the Islamic law, or sharia, needs to be reconsidered in relation to modern times; interpretations that assume the social institutions of seventh century Arabia, or tenth century Baghdad, are inadequate and out-dated. They demand the revival of the principle of ijtihad, or independent reasoning by a qualified Islamic scholar, which has lain dormant for centuries. They form a third strain in modern Islamic thought, neither Sufi nor Salafi.
Conflicts between these three strains of thought are most pronounced in the Muslim diaspora, the old Dar-ul-harb, the portion of the world where Islam has not been historically predominant. Since World War II, there has been an ever-increasing migration of Muslims into Europe, Canada, the United States, and Australia, in search of education and economic opportunity. While there is a tendency for Muslims from certain areas to congregate (Pakistanis in the UK, Turks in Germany, etc.), Muslims in diaspora are often of diverse origins and different Muslim traditions. It is a difficult task to form functioning communities, with associated mosques and schools, from such disparate materials in completely new conditions. Adding to the complexity are increasing numbers of Western converts to Islam. The largest group of these are African-Americans in the U.S., who bring their own culture to the mosque.
Is the neighborhood mosque to be Sunni or Shi'a, Sufi, Salafi, or liberal? Should Saudi Arabian money be accepted for construction and books? Should the Friday sermons (khutbah) be delivered in Turkish, Urdu, Farsi, Moroccan, English, French? If there is a school, what should it teach? How are imams and teachers to be recruited? All these questions have roiled or split Muslim communities and often led to a proliferation of mosques serving different ethnic communities and strains of belief.
These conflicts have become of great concern to non-Muslims insofar as they facilitate the spread of the religio-political ideology of Islamism. Islamists reject Western political theories, such as the socialism and nationalism that were once preeminent in the Arab world, and insist that the Muslim community, the ummah, will only regain its former power and unity if it returns to its Islamic roots. They want state to function like the Medinan community under Muhammad, obedient to a religious or clerical leader, and subject to Muslim law, or sharia. Many of them dream of a unified world Islamic state, covering the whole globe, uniting the ummah, leading humanity into the Islamic fold.
Islamism has been extremely attractive to some idealistic young Muslims.
Islamists are a minority among Muslims, both in Muslim-majority countries and in the Muslim diaspora, but they are newsworthy out of all proportion to their numbers because of their belief in direct action -- violence -- as an acceptable means of bringing about the Islamist millennium. Shi'a Islamists overthrew the Shah of [[Iran and have attempted to export Shi'a Islamism to surrounding countries. Sunni Islamists such as al-Qaeda temporarily had their own state (the Taliban of Afghanistan) and have been responsible for numerous high-profile, high-casualty terrorist incidents such as (insert links). Sunni Islamists are usually extreme Salafis. (Some Salafis regard them as heretics, and call them Qutbis.)
For majority, non-Islamist contemporary Muslims, dealing with the threat that Islamism poses to their own safety and security is a pressing issue. Islamists seem prepared to kill other Muslims in pursuit of their goals. Islamism threatens whatever assimilation and acceptance the Muslims of the diaspora have been able to achieve. However, the Muslim communities, fractured as they are both in the Dar-ul-Islam and the Dar-ul-harb, have so far been unable to speak with one voice in condemnation of Islamism.
See User:Grenavitar/Contemporary Islam to help get this ready to be put onto the Islam page
Farhansher 20:12, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Zora: Good start. However, you do need to decide from your 'start' whether this can be tightened up to be added in as a section of the Islam page. From Farhansher's comments and his "all encompassing" nature of it, I think it is very likely going to become another page with a brief intro on the Islam page and then a listing under see also. I suggest that before you write the various sections, you may want to make a list of the topics that need to be given under this topic. It would be a good idea since we are going to be reporting to always anchor the main topics to a definite source which then others can build and contribute. That should take care of zeno's objection of "new research". I agree with you that Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-harb is still a valid way to look at the politics of the world. However, some have also introduced couple of other variations such as House of Order (I cannot remember the Arabic form and would have to look it up) and House of valid Contract. Contemporary islam is definately influenced by political islam and its influence. I suggest that you start a page on Contemporary islam and make an outline of topics. Then you can farm out subtopics to people who have the time to pitch in. I would like to help.
Nickbee
20:31, 30 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zora: It's an interesting idea, but I have a few suggestions. There is no need to list all the terrorist attacks under the article Islam, that's a bit unfair and unbalanced. They were condemned by mainstream Muslims worldwide, and I think that including them all goes a bit too far. Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-Harb is an outdated way to look at the world, it ended when the Caliphate fell, and now there exists no Dar-ul-Islam (Why else do terrorists strike in Muslim countries?). mr100percent 20:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
The article states that the Muslim creed is: "I believe in God; and in His Angels; and in His Scriptures; and in His Messengers; and in The Final Day; and in Fate, that Good and Evil are from God, and Resurrection after death be Truth. "I testify that there is nothing worthy of worship but God; and I testify that Muhammad is His Messenger." No source is given, and it is not explained what this creed is called, or where it comes froms. The Islamic creed is generally considered to be the Shahada, which is only the second part of the above "Muslim creed," and not the first part. Can anyone explain where this creed statement came from? -- Zeno of Elea 16:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
According to that very article, In Sahih Al-Muslim and Al-Bukhari, Muhammad explains, "It (Al-Iman/faith) is to affirm your faith in Allah, His angels, His Books His Messengers and the Last Day, and to believe in the Divine Destiny whether it be good or bad." Heraclius 17:43, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Users that have been crossed out are:
23:03, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
discounting sock and newbie votes (Ni-ju-Ichi and Existentializer have both been blocked as socks of banned user Enviroknot), the vote is at 14:17 against linking ffi now. This is more support for the ffi link that I would have imagined, I admit, but it amounts to 'no consensus, no majority'. ffi is two clicks away from this page, which considering its overall relevance to Islam as a whole is certainly fair enough. Also, its content is virtually identical to the dmoz listing, people: nothing is being censored, this is about 'Wikipedia is not a link farm'. Therefore, pending significant changes in majority, I will continue to oppose addition of the link. dab (ᛏ) 07:16, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The wiki way it appears is not within the realm of fairness. It is turf war between the priesthood of admins and those that have been admitted to it. Sockpuppets is a real phenomanon and perhaps the achilles heel of the wiki way. I am sure that there are a few sock puppets on the "no" side as well, and the incentive to create and maintain sock puppets is great given the way decisions are made here. It should come as no surprise that many regular editors will have sock puppets in reserve to win the occasional polls. There can be no consensus on controversial topics; that is the nature of the beast. Hopefully, it is not a matter of winning or losing polls but of delivering solid "free" information to everyone that is important. Nickbee 14:54, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
you really have a hard time hearing another's views. It is not an issue of looking for ANTI-MUSLIM sites! There is a lot of secular muslims and ex-muslims whose views you and gren knowingly or unknowingly suppress. I gave you the views of a muslim in UK the other day. There was another one in a candian paper a few days ago. Here is one from a pakistani paper and an inter view on Al-Jazzeera. All these are muslims speaking, not "Islamophobes" or muslim haters. It is their opinion on Islam that you are lumping as anti-muslim. This is what the muslims of UK are putting on their website: "Jihad is a powerful invigorating yearning for Islam's might and glory ... which makes you cry when looking at the weakness of Muslims today and the humiliating tragedies crushing him to death everywhere. " Jihad is to be a soldier for Allah. When the bugle calls ... you should be the first to answer the call to join the ranks for jihad." ....
And what does wikipedia's Islam page say? Wiki is not even organising information on the Islam page. You guys are drowning in your consensus with a bunch of people who are unwilling to consider any attempt at honesty and forthrightness.
[30]July 30th issue: We are very touchy when we are criticized by westerners, so I am reproducing excerpts from another e-mail, this time from a Pakistani reader living in the United States:
“... a lawyer [of Pakistani descent] at the Justice Department ...informed us that ... more and more mosques are telling people present for prayers that ‘we need to have separate schools so that we could protect our children from American culture’... Finally, wherever we go, Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular, we create and spread hatred, nothing else. I fear for the time when Christians, Jews and Hindus will put the rest of the work on hold and focus their undivided attention on eliminating terrorism around the globe. We cannot comprehend what will happen, but I guess that’s the only way out.”
Wafa Sultan: Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up? How and why does he blow himself up in a bus full of innocent passengers?
In our countries, religion is the sole source of education, and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched. He was not born a terrorist, and did not become a terrorist overnight. Islamic teachings played a role in weaving his ideological fabric, thread by thread, and did not allow other sources – I am referring to scientific sources – to play a role. It was these teachings that distorted this terrorist and killed his humanity. It was not (the terrorist) who distorted the religious teachings and misunderstood them, as some ignorant people claim.
When you recite to a child still in his early years the verse: "They will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off," regardless of this verse's interpretation, and regardless of the reasons it was conveyed or its time – you have made the first step towards creating a great terrorist...
[32] Youth wing of UK Muslim group calls for jihad
01.08.05
By S. Malik
Children as young as 11 are being targeted by radical Muslims who appear to have infiltrated a mainstream Muslim website, The Independent on Sunday can reveal. Literature aimed at children between 11 and 18 on the youth section of the Islamic Society of Britain (ISB) website calls on them to "boycott those who openly wage war against Allah".
The article containing that quote, entitled "Imam Hassan al-Banna on jihad", goes on to say: "Jihad is a powerful invigorating yearning for Islam's might and glory ... which makes you cry when looking at the weakness of Muslims today and the humiliating tragedies crushing him to death everywhere. "
Jihad is to be a soldier for Allah. When the bugle calls ... you should be the first to answer the call to join the ranks for jihad." .... Nickbee 17:20, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
since trolling and haggling is apparently so much easier than writing encyclopedia articles (which is supposed to be the reason we are all here for, remember?) I took it upon myself to create Opposition to Islam, which should be linked from the see also here, once the article is unprotected. So far, the article is largely informed by the Catholic Encyclopedia. Note my caveat on the talkpage there: If at all possible, attribute every statement you make. Once that article expands and stabilizes, it can be summarized in a short "Criticism" section on this article. dab (ᛏ) 12:13, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
btw, Zeno et al, I have added with my own fingers the ffi link page to the Opposition article, as a collection of anti-Islamic sites. I maintain that it is on-topic there, but off-topic here. Your precious site is linked from Wikipedia, at least twice now, so stop saying I want to censor things or am suffering from Islamophilia or whatever. dab (ᛏ) 13:05, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The issue is not "opposition to Islam" as far as I am concerned. The issue is providing a balanced and fair view of Islam for the english speaking world. That is not being acheived by what is on the Islam page. Take a look at the Islam pages on Encyclopedia Brittanica or the Encyclopedia Americana, and the difference of what is on "free" wikipedia and those "for subscription" services is redily apparent. A few phrases here and there on wikipedia Islam's page have been directly lifted off the other two, but the bias twowards Islamic proleytizing at wikipedia is unmistakable when one compares wiki with the other two encyclopedia. And the article written for Ency. Americana is by a group of muslims, and it comes accross as far more objective than what is on wikipedia! I am not sure whether it is possible to provide a real quality given the design by committee and turf protection bureaucratic mentality that appears to be institutionally fostered. I still hope there is some mechanism to improve the quality of the information provided on the Islam page, but I have not found a sensible way yet. I am hoping that the adage 'you get what you pay for' is not strictly applicable to general information. Nickbee 15:20, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Heraclius, look at my attempt above about what should be on the page. Look at the very first section, the section is repetious. The muslim creed statement in english is given in quotes suggesting that is what muslims assert. That is not true. It is a rehash of the information covered above it. Now you tell me which muslim other than the Quran only talks about giving Shahadatain (and it is a plural and not "two testimonies"). Muslims are obliged to give "Shahada". If creed is a mix of the Qalima and the Aqidah then let us state it. But muslims do not verbalise the Aqidah as a statemennt! Then there is absolutely no mention how central within Islam is the respect and love for Muhammad. Muslims attempt to emulate Muhammed because he is considered special. The article barely touches "seal of prophet" and the "final messanger" without even a nod what that implies. Again there is nothing mentioned on Women, nothing on Jihad, Nothing on the issues that a lot of muslims are struggling with these days. Again I am not saying the page should concentrate on these topics, but for crying out loud if they are important enough to go under "see also" they deserve a sentence or two. Now it is obvious gren has great deal of respect for Fazl-ur-Rahman but do a search on where he has been used by the islamic scholars following him and he is barely above Edip Yuksel level. Look at how the muslims after him have treated his views. Why is getting a central exposure here? Another example: Under symbols of Islam, there is no mention of hijab and that has become a symbol of Islam (why else does turkey ban it and why else would france make such a big deal about it?). The OIC did not sign the UN human rights but decided to put out the Islamic human rights charter, and there are differences there. There is a lot of how fast Islam is growing but why is that important or why that should be considered ... no context is provided. If we want to talk about the Islamic world and muslims then some organisation to the information is needed. +
- There are a lot of other little details, but read the page with a clear and open mind and see how it is unintentionally reacting to a lot of criticism and not presenting what is central to understanding Islam and muslims in the present. I honestly believe that if you will clear you mind and not be defensive that I am trying to thrust on you an anti-islam view, and read the page, you will realise that it truly does read like a cheap dawa pamphlet from your not very intelligent but friendly imam.
Nickbee
17:14, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
gren, here is the table of contents of the article on Islam in Encyclopedia Brittanica:
* Islam * The foundations of Islam o The legacy of Muhammad o Sources of Islamic doctrinal and social views o Doctrines of the Qur'an + God + The universe + Man + Satan, sin, and repentance + Prophecy + Eschatology + Social service o Fundamental practices and institutions of Islam + The five pillars # The shahadah, or profession of faith # Prayer # The zakat # Fasting # The hajj + Sacred places and days # Shrines of Sufi saints # The mosque # Holy days * Islamic thought o Origins, nature, and significance of Islamic theology + Early developments + The Hellenistic legacy o Theology and sectarianism + The Khawarij + The Mu'tazilah + The Sunnah # The way of the majority # Tolerance of diversity # Influence of al-Ash'ari and al-Maturidi + The Shi'ah # Isma'iliI # Related sects # The SufiI + Other groups # The Ahmadiyah # The “Black Muslims” o Islamic philosophy + The Eastern philosophers # Background and scope of philosophical interest in Islam # Relation to the Mu'tazilah and interpretation of theological issues * The teachings of al-Kindi * The teachings of Abu Bakr ar-Razi # The teachings of al-Farabi * Political philosophy and the study of religion * Interpretation of Plato and Aristotle * The analogy of religion and philosophy * Impact on Isma'ili theology # The teachings of Avicenna * The “Oriental Philosophy” * Distinction between essence and existence and the doctrine of creation * The immortality of individual souls * Philosophy, religion, and mysticism + The Western philosophers # Background and characteristics of the Western Muslim philosophical tradition # The teachings of Ibn Bajjah * Theoretical science and intuitive knowledge * Unconcern of philosophy with reform # The teachings of Ibn Tufayl * The philosopher as a solitary individual * Concern for reform * The hidden secret of Avicenna's “Oriental Philosophy” # The teachings of Averroës * Philosophy * The divine law * Theology o The new wisdom: synthesis of philosophy and mysticism + Philosophy, traditionalism, and the new wisdom # Philosophy # Traditionalism and the new wisdom # Characteristic features of the new wisdom # Critiques of Aristotle in Islamic theology # Synthesis of philosophy and mysticism + Primary teachers of the new wisdom # The teachings of as-Suhrawardi # The teachings of Ibn al-'Arabi # The teachings of Twelver Shi'ism and the school of Esfahan * The teachings of Mir Damah * The teachings of Mulla Sadra + Impact of modernism o Social and ethical principles + Family life + The state + Education + Cultural diversity o Religion and the arts + The visual arts + Music + Literature + Architecture o Islamic myth and legend + Sources and variations # The Qur'an and non-Islamic influences # The mystics + Types of myth and legend # Cosmogony and eschatology # Tales and legends concerning religious figures * Muhammad * Other Qur'anic figures * Mystics and other later figures # Mythologization of secular tales # Tales and beliefs about numbers and letters + Illustration of myth and legend + Significance and modern interpretations * Additional Reading o General works o Education o Political theory and institutions o Islamic arts o Theology and philosophy o Islamic myth and legend
And this is what is given as the very first paragraph under there:
major world religion belonging to the Semitic family; it was promulgated by the Prophet Muhammad in
Arabia in the 7th century AD. The Arabic term islam, literally “surrender,” illuminates the fundamental
religious idea of Islam—that the believer (called a Muslim, from the active particle of islam) accepts
“surrender to the will of Allah (Arabic: God).” Allah is viewed as the sole God—creator, sustainer, and restorer of the world. The will of Allah, to which man must submit, is made known through the sacred scriptures, the Qur'an (Koran), which Allah revealed to his messenger, Muhammad. In Islam Muhammad is considered the last of a series of prophets (including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and others),
and his message simultaneously consummates and completes the “revelations” attributed to earlier
prophets.
Retaining its emphasis on an uncompromising monotheism and a strict adherence to certain essential religious practices, the religion taught by Muhammad to a small group of followers spread rapidly through the Middle East to Africa, Europe, the Indian subcontinent, the Malay Peninsula, and China. Although many sectarian movements have arisen within Islam, all Muslims are bound by a common faith and a sense of belonging to a single community.
This article deals with the fundamental beliefs and practices of Islam and with the connection of religion and society in the Islamic world. The history of the various peoples who embraced Islam is covered in the article Islamic world.
Do you detect a difference in style and content? Nickbee 17:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
well, not really, that looks like a perfectly fine article to me, and any of the sections you list yet absent here would be welcome. dab (ᛏ) 20:59, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay,dab, you do not see a difference there. Let's try another example which should be very very obvious. This is what is said on Islam page: "In Arabic, God is called Allah, a contraction of al-ilah or "the only god". Allāh thus translates to "God" in English." Now go to wikipedia's page on Allah and see whether that is correct. If there is any dispute over that there, then how can the Islam page present it as a fact? Then the Islam page states: "Muslims believe that the God they worship is the same as the Judeo-Christian God. However, Muslims reject the Christian theology concerning the unity of God (the doctrine of the Trinity which regards Jesus as the eternal Son of God), seeing it as akin to polytheism." which gives rise to "You present muslims believe this ..." but why are you ignoring what christians or jews believe about "Allah". Do they in your readership not count? What is implied when it is stated that "muslims believe ..."? Then a need is felt to explain reject the concept of trinity by quoting the Quran and in the verse one sees: "Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son." Now some would suggest (and there is a long history to this particular religious discussion) that by rejecting the Son, it is far more than the rejection of the trinity. But the writiers are totally oblivious to this discussion on the chrisitian side at all. The perspective is that of the muslims and muslims alone. As I read more from Wikipedia, I am starting to realise that the "quality" of the articles is very very uneven, and there really is apparently no mechanism to rate, rank or correct for quality. That seems to be a built in limitation of the wiki way. So yes information is available, but how reliable and good it is seems to be a matter of the quality of the admins who managed to form a clique to control its contents, and block rowdy dissenters quickly and efficiently. Nickbee 17:59, 2 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Dab, I was trying to give you an example of how britannica steps through the minefield of controversy by not plunking itself squarely with a Muslims POV. But you do not want to listen. Shanes was correct that bickering on this page has been going on for a long time, and I wonder how much of it is contributed by the "controlling" editors abilities and knowledge of Islam. It is obvious that the bickering will keep on going for a long time.
Nickbee
02:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
gren, I have taken your suggestion and started an entry on your talk page. Nickbee 19:50, 3 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
Might I suggest that the links section is divided into two sections. One secton could be for pro and one for anti. Even the various factions in this debate should be able to agree if a site is either for or aginst. The reader can then make a more informed move to an external link. Having looked (briefly) at faithfreedom web site I am inclined to think it is a little anti for my tastes, but it is an example of some peoples opinion of Islam. An encylopedia should strive to be as NPOV as possible but that is not to say that it should sweep Non-neutral points of view (NNPOVs?) under the carpet.
Sorry - I'm not very good at editing stuff 4 Aug 2005
add Hungarian please: hu:Iszlám Marriex 15:30, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The links section used to have pro and anti sections -- as well as links to academic/neutral sites -- and it became a mess. If the only criteria is that the site be pro or anti, there are potentially thousands of sites to be included in each list. No one could agree on which of these sites were the most useful or notable, and the lists grew like cancer. I'm sure that the anon has good intentions, but we've tried that route and it didn't work! That's why we linked to the directories, so as not to have to argue about the choices. The editors who are clamoring for a links list would do better, IMHO, to go volunteer at DMOZ (they're a volunteer group just like Wikipedia) and make sure the DMOZ lists are comprehensive and well-organized. Zora 21:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Really appreciate the editors not being cowed to serve interests of any group. That would be like Muslims attempting to add anti christian links that promote their view. This current thought is all over the yahoo chat rooms. It has nothing to do with academic and scholarly work just opinions and hate. Hopefully this same approach is being applied to the Christian and Jewish pages. But doubt you will have people so dedicated to attach their proselytizing views and sites. User:creativeconsultinggroup 15:44, 4 August 2005
I was wondering, I keep hearing in Islam that apostasy requires the death penalty. I don't know how true that is. What source does that come from? I know treason is punishable by death, but is apostasy always treason in Islamic law? I would appreciate Qur'anic or other credible evidences to show this. Thank You. (---)
Pakistan and Saudia Arabia have put apostates to death in the last 5 years or so. They have also executed blasphemers. An islamic statement on apostates is given by "The punishment of the apostate according to Islamic law, by Abul Ala Mawdudi, translated and annotated by Syed Silas Husain and Ernest Hahn 1994". It is availbale on the net. The islamic apologists will tone down the position articulated by Mawdudi, but the bottom line is that muslim apostates who openly and "vocally" express their apostacy are usually killed off by someone and the state does not have to take action. In the islamic tribal countries, blasphemy and/or declaration of apostacy usually ends up death by an angry mob before the state even gets a chance to step in. Do a search of the news and you will find a few cases sprinkled through out the muslim world Nickbee 19:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
Dismissing Mawdudi as an extremist is the most outrageous partisan stand! Mawdudi is cited by more muslim writers and more muslim scholars than the minor figure of Fazl-ur-Rahman! Are Salafis more extremist than Sunnis? Mawdudi is the founder of Jamiat Islami a party that has millions of members in Pakistan. Why does a "buddhist" editor Zora feel the need to take sides and dismiss one voice of Islam over another? It is not a question of what you like and what you do not like as an editor. Deobandi school has an extensive history and people are dying in Pakistan as the Deobandi are exerting their power over the other branches of thoughts in Islam. Why not report as factually as possible what is out there? Mawdudi is a voice in Islam, not the only voice, perhaps not even a determining voice, but his voice is in the camp of those who have led to the ideology of Osama and Aymen Zawaheri. This is a prime example of what is wrong with the set of editors that are controlling the pages of Islam. They are censoring information and crafting it instead of honestly trying to present all sides of it. Have apostates been put to death in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia or not in recent years? Archbishop of Canterbury not withstanding! The voice of Mawdudi is more influential in the Islamic world right now than the London Sufi's. That is a fact and an encyclopedia should report it honestly.
Nickbee
22:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.
This is what wikipedia says about Mawdudi:" Maulana Maududi’s philosophy, literary productivity and tireless activism contributed immensely to the development of Islamic political and social movements around the world. Maulana Maududi’s ideas profoundly influenced Sayyid Qutb of Egypt’s Jamiat al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun (“Muslim Brotherhood”) another leading Muslim philosopher of the 20th century. Together, Maududi and Qutb are considered the founding fathers of the global Islamic revival movement." On one page he is the founding father of global Islamic revial movement and here Zora is dismissing him as an extremist! Go figure!
Nickbee
22:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
STOP. Way off topic. to clarify some things, in Islam, men and women ARE equal, not gonna get into that bc its off topic. Last verse in faithfreedom.com link is not contradictory, dont wanna get into that either. Back to apostasy, none of those verses clearly say that apostasy must be punished by death. Some of them even seemed to say that God will be responsible for their punishment. Do I think apostasy isn't necessarily punishable by death? No, I'm not sure, but those verses aren't exactly proof either way. If someone wants to discuss this or any other Islamic points of view with me, my email is lose6060@yahoo.com. Thanks. (---)
This is ridiculous. People arguing that apostates are not executed in Islam. This is absolutely revolting. The fact that the apologetic point of view is so easily pushed into articles brings the fundamental credability of wikipedia into question. Anyone who doubts that apostates are not executed in Islam or thinks that it has anything to do with apologetic bullshit about "treason" should carefully read over Martyrs of Cordoba. Fact is that certain "apostate" editors right here on Wikipedia are liable to be executed for what they write about Islam, and meanwhile we have Western liberal apologists for Islam explaining to them that penalties for apostasy are really just about political treason and are a bygone relic of the era of the vile imperial "caliphate." It certainly is true that the classical madbhabs had differing views of the penalties for apostacy. But it amounts to pedestrian apologetics to deny the basic fact that the death penalty for apostacy from Islam it is widely believed in and practiced in the present day and throughout the history of Islam. As for the Islamic treatment of women - you have to be kidding me. -- Zeno of Elea 13:35, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, your broad generalizations are getting a bit stale. What do you mean "apostates are executed in Islam"? What do you mean by Islam? The Islamic world? Societies where there are Muslims? I can tell you that there are countries in the Arab/Muslim world where apostates are not executed, take Lebanon/Syria/Jordan. There are conflicting opinions about whether or not apostates should be executed. Furthermore, The Martyrs of Cordoba was one incident over a millenia ago. It has little or no relevance today.
Heraclius
15:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
How about we mention these? Or is the truth verboten as it relates to Islam?
Qur’an 33:59 “Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better.”
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’” —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.109.206.212 ( talk • contribs) 15:52, 5 August 2005.
The widely accepted translations of 33:59 are: 033.059 YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. There is no mention of one eyes or two eyes. As Bidawi in UK stated in the last couple of days that the injunction to cover was to avoid harm and being molested. But the muslim dress in the west has become a "political statement", especially the hijab (see Amina Wudud's statements on it), and may end up becoming a cause of harm and hence against the Quranic injunction. Further Muslim female writers are suggesting that the traditional chador or Burqa might be the result of interpretation by the male dominated Islamic heirarchy (See Asma Barlas for example in "Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Quran; Qur'an and Woman: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective by Amina Wudud; or Standing Alone in Mecca : An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam by Asra Nomani). However, I do agree that there should be some mention of Women in Islam on the Islam page with a link to the page on Women in Islam. Nickbee 22:09, 5 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
When was the last time the uncivilized bible thumpers of South Carolina celebrated the death of the Kaffirs in the London tubes of 7/7? You guys don't push your POV? Take a look at the civilized world of London: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1724923_1,00.html Nickbee 02:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Nickbee 02:48, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
The poll has officially closed, as of August 6. No consensus and no majority to remove or include the link has been reached. What now? -- Zeno of Elea 17:16, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Do you have a clue why the US has the first and the second amendments to its Constitution? Even with a 55% to 45% rigged vote, your arrogance is an eye opener. "Such views have stout majorities in certain bible thumping communities, but thank goodness not anywhere in the civilized world?" And that is not hate? Hypocritical? Nauseating?
Nickbee
00:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
dab (ᛏ) 07:30, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Look at your post above quoting the stupid article on nuking. Then read dab's comment's below. dab states: "It's a point of view, granted. The point here is notability. Such views may have stout majorities in certain bible thumping communities, but thank goodness not anywhere in the civilized world (which would of course cease to be civilized, so that's really a null statement)" Now you tell me where does bible-thumping uncivilised communities came into the discussion? And then he proceeds to wrap himself up in self righteousness with :"I am not saying it is illegal in the US to call for the nuking or gassing of everyone that refuses to believe in Christ the Saviour. You are free to make a perfect fool of yourself. However, the amendments do not mean anyone is forced to listen to you, or to disseminate your propaganda." You care to explain to me where does Christ the Saviour comes into the article at all? Where does the author Vernon Richard talk about Christianty or Christ the Saviour? If that is not an outburst against christians and christianity, then I do not know what would be. Go ahead I am waiting to find out what is it that I am missing here.
Nickbee
17:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
The page has been locked since July 23, so we should probably think about unprotecting it soon. Do the editors here feel it needs to stay locked for any longer? SlimVirgin (talk) 18:05, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely nothing has been resolved. The "established" editors are not interested in entertaining any steps to arrive at a NPOV on Islam. I expect that you will be asked to lock the page up again within a few days of unlocking it. The page will be edited and it will not be acceptable to many of the editors who have been controlling this page for some time now. Nickbee 00:32, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Nickbee/Nick the Socialist, many of those epithets were used to refer to the article about nuking Mecca, which you as a supporter of FFI apparently back. Heraclius 03:35, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Farhansher 04:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I do not think the page is acceptable as it is. It does need major changes. And I assure you that I intend to be bring in a whole lot of relevant secondary sources. And your outburst about Christianity and Christ the Savior is very useful. I am sure the stout majorities have internet connections as well and they will be delighted to know how a dawa page is being protected. If you guys did not like the FFI crowd, you are going to love the Club 700 crowd. Nickbee 18:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I don't feel those links from Dmoz criticizing Islam do any justice for they are all nonsense and emotional sites. I think that the section Opposition_to_Islam created by the user above does more justice. I Thank You SlimVirgin for taking the time to properly maintain this page along with the other editors. Tehmasp 18:06, August 09 2005
Would it be alright if I archived everything before the section Apostasy- death penalty?? This is already bigger than most of hte archives seem to be and discussion on everything above that has ended I believe. (feel free to remove this section if archiving is done) gren グレン 00:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
There are related VFDs - Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Opposition to Islam and Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Klonimus/AINB ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 19:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
However, Sikhs are forbidden from practices such as eating ritually prepared meat (halal) that are central in Islam. This is none-factual; not because of what Sikhs practise, but because Muslims have no rituals for preparing meat, save for the slaughter method. No need to mention that eating meat itself isn't a ritual. -- Alif 14:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
The article starts out with "In Arabic, Islām means "submission" (understood as submission to God) and is described as a Dīn or Deen, meaning "way of life" and/or "religion." Islam is a "Deen" has deep implications and it does not translate to "religion" in the western sense. It is important to make that distinction. Without that distinction there is always a lot of confusion and impossible to understand the principles of Islam. Here are some sources: [35] These four linguistic meanings constitute the concept of the word “deen” in the Qur’an. Therefore, “deen” implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts: 1-The ruler ship and the authority belong to Allah (swt) only. 2-The obedience and submission are to Allah (swt). 3-The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) is established by this authority (Allah). 4-The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those who followed the system and submitted to him and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it. Based on this definition of “deen”, we can conclude that it is a submission, and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, the subjugator in a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects. After understanding this definition of the Arabic word “deen”, we realize that it is not correct to translate it into English using the word “religion". Muslims must do their best to clarify to others the reality of the word “deen” in the Islamic perspective; also they should implant this reality in their youth’s minds so that they will not confuse the concept of “deen” with all other erroneous and distorting definitions. .... Islam is a divine system, with it Allah (swt) sealed all other “deens” and religions, and he made it a comprehensive system that deals with all aspects of human life (Belief, intellectual, moral and practical). This system is based on total submission to Allah (swt) alone, purifying worship to him only, and following the traditions (sunnah) of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Maududi states in Maududi page 34 in A fundamental Misconception Currently religion is considered to be a belief or thought which a person selects with reference to metaphysical concerns. To obtain salvation in the life after death there is a way on which a man acts according to his belief. ... In fact, this has not at all been the nature of Islam. It is not only a "religion" in the modern technical sense of that term but a complete order of life. It relates not only to the metaphysical but also to nature and everything in nature. It discourses not only on the salvation of life after death but also on the questions of prosperity, improvement and the true ordering of life before death. It establishes a dependence of salvation after death upon the true ordering of life before death. Granted that it is nevertheless only a belief. Yet it is not a belief which is concerned only with some remote phase of life. Rather, it is that belief on whose foundation a plan for the whole of life rests. It is not a belief whose existence or change has no noticeable effect on the great and significant ramifications of human life but a belief on whose continuation the continuation of civilization and the state depend and the changing of which means changing the order of civilization and state. It is not a faith which a person may choose with only the concern of the individual in mind. It is that faith on the basis of which a society of people establishes a complete order of a civilization in a particular form and brings into existence a state to operate it. A faith and idea of this nature cannot be made into a game for the liberties of individuals. Nor can the society, which establishes the order of civilization and state on that faith, make way for any brainwave to enter, then to be displaced by another brainwave, to come and go at will. This is not a game or picnic intended to entertain a person in a totally irresponsible manner. This is a terribly serious and extremely delicate work whose fine balance affects the order of society and state. Its success and failure affect the success and failure of thousands and millions of God's servants. Here is another site with a similar message:There is perhaps no word in the terminology of any country or people-other than Muslims-which would comprehensively embrace all these factors. The word `state' as employed in our own day does, to some extent, approximate to the sense, but even this word lacks the far wider connotation which would bring it on a par with the word Deen. Examples of the Qur'anic use of deen in this comprehensive sense are as follows:... [36]
There are many other references that can be cited but the central point is that an explicit statement that by deen, or a complete way of life, it is meant that Islam covers 'religion' as understood in the west, jurisprudence (i.e. Sharia), and a body politic. In short the separation of state and religion is not envisioned in the fundamentals of Islam. That central concept leads to a clear idea of the role of Sharia for muslims and why the muslims in the west are pushed to ask for Sharia to rule their lives, for without it their 'religion'is incomplete. I suggest that a few sentences to a small paragraph be added to clearly make that distinction. Do you guys agree? Nickbee 20:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
I have put up a proposed page for Din
[37]. Please check it out and offer any suggestions. Thanks
Nickbee
19:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zora, I am not preaching anything. I am showing how "Din" has been explained by muslims themselves. I have quoted Maududi, but I have also quoted others. Those are not my words. Those are the words of the Muslims themselvs. Do you know who Parwez was? He was the leading Quran only Muslim and not a deobandi. He wrote that in the 1940's. Why don't you provide good secondary sources about your understanding of din and I will incorporate those in the page? Again this is an encyclopedia, and we are here not to give our take on things. Those are the words of the muslims themselves. Calling Deobandi's Kentucky snake handlers is dismissing hundreds of millions of muslims around the world. This is what Inayat Bunglawala
[38]and
[39] has to say about your snake handlers of Islam: "The MCB's Inayat Bunglawala said he had a deep respect for Maududi and defended the MCB's affiliation to Khurshid Ahmad's Islamic Foundation. He said: 'Maududi is a very important Muslim thinker. The book that brought me to practise Islam was Now Let Us Be Muslims by Maududi. As for Jamaat-i-Islami, it is a perfectly legal body in Pakistan. There is no suggestion that the Islamic Foundation has done anything wrong. They have done fantastic work in publishing literature on Islam, including works for children.'" MCB is the leading organisation of Muslims in UK and the head is SIR Iqbal Sacranie (knighted only recently) who also happens to be an admirer of Maududi unlike yourself (read the observer articles).
Nickbee
21:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Just googling on din - islam - definition brings up this quote:
The use of din in the last words of it, Atakum yu‘allimukum dinakum, "came to you to teach you your religion" entails that the religion of Islam is composed of the three fundamentals mentioned in the hadith: Islam, or external compliance with what Allah asks of us; Iman, or the belief in the unseen that the prophets have informed us of; and Ihsan, or to worship Allah as though one sees Him.
--from a Sufi, Ha Mim Keller. [41]
Another Sufi:
From this hadith it is apparent that the Din has three basic components, Islam, Iman and Ihsan. We can compare these three elements to the three parts of an egg. Islam which is the practical outer practises, we can for example see people performing Salah or performing Hajj, of the Din corresponds to the hard outer protective shell of the egg. Iman which are the basic beliefs and world-view of the Din, corresponds to the white unseen part of the egg. And finally Ihsan corresponds to the yolk of the egg, its heart and from which eventually a life will evolve. Ihsan according to the words of the Nabi, may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, has two aspects; 1) Mushahadah, or Spiritual Vision , or the inward vision of Allah ... [42]
Din = religion = self-cultivation
If you read Islamists, you're going to get definitions like Din = religion = living in Islamic states/communities.
Please try to recognize the diversity in the Muslim world. Frankly, from a self-protective POV, as in, "I don't want those Islamists to blow me up", it makes a lot more sense to make common cause with the non-violent Muslims than it does to try to demonize them all as Islamists. Zora 02:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I will not dignify some of your silly charges. I have zero interest in demonizing anyone. I am interested in providing unbiased information about "din" at the moment. So you agree that many do consider 'din' to include the state. Now where do I get references for din=self-cultivation? Even the sufi literature does not restrict din to mean just self-cultivation. Do you know what the hadiath is talking about? You have given me two references for Tasawwuf. Do you understand the "context" of tasawwuf? I will include something on the view of the Sufi on din and the criticism it generated historically. Do you have additional references?
Nickbee
05:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
Zero interest in demonizing anyone? Ok Nick the Socialist from FFI. Heraclius 22:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Instead of attacking me and calling me names etc. why don't you get some solid second sources that show that my sources are wrong. Do you dispute with the sources? Do you have other sources that state things differently? Please provide other sources and I will gladly incorporate them as alternatives. The whole idea is to present as an accurate image and information as possible. You guys have an agenda apparently. Nickbee 04:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)Nickbee
So "Deen" refers to a way of life. How is this different from "Religion"? (*Religion*, mind you, not *Church*). How many Christians would describe their faith as a hobby for lazy Sunday afternoons? Critics of Islam as "inherently backward" generally seem entirely ignorant of Christianity between the fourth and 16th century (i.e., they blissfully ignore 60% of Christian history!). If anything, pre-Reformation Christianity was *worse* than Islam, by their own standards. Much worse. 12th century Christians were simply barbarians compared to the Muslim world. The Modern Age is not "inherent" in Christianity any more than it is "inherently foreign" to Islam. Bottom line: "Religion" is a fair translation of Deen. dab (ᛏ) 09:24, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
and governing all their life aspects." [43] [44] [45] -- Zeno of Elea 10:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The page is over 40k long. Why not spawn some sections near the end off as separate pages? They stick out as separate topics anyway.
In the subsection 'Other beliefs' of 'Beliefs', it is stated (paraphrasing) '... Jinns are made of fire ...' I think we should be careful about what we mean by 'fire' in the context of jinns. The word 'fire', Islamically, doesn't necessarily mean the hot stuff we're all familiar with, rather it can refer to a state of punishment (not necessarily by burning). Also, if jinns are truly made of the fire that we're familiar with, then we should be able to see or interact with them in some physical way. What I'm trying to say is that if we're not absolutely sure of the facts (and the ambiguities present in the word 'fire'), then we should change the above clause to something less definite. Any comments/suggestions ? --- Mpatel (talk) 16:04, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
2005 demographics trends of Islam. This info has been added to article
Is the Kharijite belief a major branch of belief ? --- Mpatel (talk) 16:03, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, why did you remove the picture of the Islamabad mosque? Shouldn't there have been some discussion? I can't say that I liked the picture much, or the architecture of the mosque. But the article is looking even drier and more forbidding now. Zora 10:49, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Mpatel, I don't think it's necessary to add "Kitab" after "Books". Giving the Arabic word for book is an unnecessary detail and taxes the reader to no end. Also, an anon saved numerous times as he/she fiddled with the list of Muslim beliefs, changing it for the worse in terms of style. Zora 19:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Ashmoo mentioned that the Islamic view of angels is the same as in other religions - I'm not absolutely convinced of this yet, which is why I just redirected malaikah to Angels in Islam. Anyway, regarding the 'links' issue, Svest, I agree that if the terms are not specific to Islam, then clearly it would be silly to have too much translation. As the article is specific to Islam, however, there should be some translations and links (at least for 'the 6 articles of belief'); reason: many Arabic words have become part and parcel of Islamic terminology and this should be considered. --- Mpatel (talk) 17:29, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
The opening is more or less undisputable fundamentals. Political movement, while it can no doubt be true, is not fundamental. So, why would it ever be there? gren グレン 13:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
07:10, 27 August 2005 Free them (rv - prank edit?) (→Islamic law)
Islamic law advises against charging interest on loans for it can lead people to a life of servitude.
I believe this to be true can I have help with it? Political hack 16:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Can I use the words "advises against" instead of "forbidden"? Because millions of Muslim and me are charging or paying interest on loans. In 7th century and through out recorded time there were and are today "opportunistic" interest charging laws. Is it fair to say today under Islamic law that the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 (had a 30% interest rate cap removed form the bill) is a "opportunistic" law?
The Act contains a compulsory adult education program to forcibly teach people to pay there interest charging loans. Can a Muslim on religious grounds refuse to go to a compulsory adult education class that forcibly teaches about paying interest charging loans that is "forbidden" under Islamic law? Political hack 04:57, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree, if the program is a "haram" many more people will convert to Islam. Political hack 08:36, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Can I please urge editors to read the whole article (I know that takes time, but that's just tough) before making edits. I've just reverted some (presumably well-intentioned) edits by Nourah who has clearly not read enough of the article (or related articles) before making changes. --- Mpatel (talk) 14:03, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed lately that many edits refer to Quran-only. I am one of the partizans but that doesn't mean we have to make this article a comparison of the two views. The section "See also" is set-up for that purpose. Cheers. -- Svest 20:07, August 28, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Peace. The Quran-only part in relation with the shahaada is very VERY important and should not have been removed. Both mainstream "Muslims" and Quran Alone Muslims believe in the Quran and the shahaadah so it would be wrong to say that all Muslims excvept the shahaadatAAN(TWO shahaadahs) as part of their faith coz we dont and consider it flagrant idolatry to mention muhammad's name next to GOD's. I hope you understand this. GOD Bless! user:idmkhizar
Dear 72.225.24.119. I think I explained very well my reverts when i did them! I was expecting you to do the same. I am going to explain them here as well... We are not going to source all pages of any single website unless they are extremely irrelevant. Due to the nature of this article (a general article about Islam), we cannot afford listing all of those pages. Note that you can do so at the Ahmadiyya article if you wish to do so. !!! So let's stick with referencing the main page of Al Ahmadiyya website. Please call me at this number in case: Wiki me up™. Cheers -- Svest 21:02, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
"There is no god but God; Muhammad is the messenger of God."
in the last edit (by 219.95.134.10) this sentence was modified with Allah instead of God, wich one is more correct? -- Melaen 15:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Still don't understand why Wikipedia still contain mis-interpretation on Qur'an 5:51 and 9:29. This paragraph is mentioned in Islam article in "Islam and other religion" section
"Earlier passages of the Qur'an are more tolerant towards Jews and Christians. Later passages of the Qur'an are more critical of them. Sura 5:51 commands Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends. Sura 9:29 commands Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians until they either submit to Allah or else agree to pay a special tax."
First, 5:51
It is totally ILLOGICAL that Qur'an forbid muslim take jews and christian as friends, when we see the fact of history on early Islam years! The major source of confusion is the word 'awliyaa', which has ambiguous meaning in English, it can be friend, allies, supporter, leader and protector. Muhammad (pbuh) had shown exemplary social relationship with idol worshippers in his early years as prophets, as the results many of these pagan people deeply attracted to Islam and become the devout defender of Islam, the classical example is Umar bin Khattab.
If these pagan worshippers who has no clear concept of God become good friends of Muhammad (pbuh), then Jews and Christian as the 'people of the book' should receive even better treatment. If Muhammad never take any non-muslims as friends, then logically he will become the sole muslim, this interpretation of 5:51 is totally inconsistent with the rapid growth of Islam in the first 100 years of Islam history.
In my country, Indonesia, as non-arabic speaking country, the word 'awliyaa' is translated as leader or protector. Hence, it is forbidden for non-muslim to become a leader of a homogenous muslim community, because it may bring many problems due to the cultural and core belief differences. This is the LOGICAL interpretation!!!!!!!
Then, 9:29
I don't believe this! Why anyone who wrote this article didn't refer to the exact translation of 9:29, instead he/she use free assumption. The 9:29 mentions:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
The interpretation of 'fight', is not always means a physical confrontation. Just like examples given by Muhammad (pbuh), it is the belief that should be fought, while the believer as a human being should receive good treatment.
War is the last resort and defense measure, it is the sole option when the safety of Islam and ummah is under direct attack.
Conclusion:
Many words in arabic have no direct meaning with English words. Then, Qur'an translation to English cannot be solely on grammatical consideration but also include historical examples of Muhammad, in how to apply Qur'an verses.