This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Since when has there been six? It's the five pillars, something I see no reference to in the article. Raven 00:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not. The Five Pillars are basic Islam. http://www.islam101.com/dawah/pillars.html http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/pillars.shtml
Raven 22:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I would have to say Zora: it's not your article but its everybody else's too. Gren, pls help!
This time, I don't really want to revert to my originals because I've read the article again and generally I would accept it as it is and perhaps it has been made more succinct this time. You win some, you lose some.
However, I think the article on Jhizya on the Dhimmis needs to be put in although briefly as you mentioned there is another link discussing on this. But I believe the Jizya tax NEEDS to be mentioned as it was a very important matter at that time.
I probably did crowd the paragraph on Syaria' since you say there is another link that covers it so I might consider putting it there. Anyway, thanks for summarizing that para.
You said : [I don't think I've added anything controversial -- I've just deleted lots of cruft. Furthermore, I suspect that none of the regular editors wrote it, so I don't think I will have hurt any feelings. At least I hope I haven't.]
No, I don't think you've heard anyone's feelings, Zora (at least certaintly not mine) but you shouldn't just be looking at regular editors. Many new readers like me stumble upon Wikipedia and this Islamic entry every day and they might have very useful things to add which I believe, IS the open spirit Wikipedia is based upon.
You said : [Human fate established forty days before birth? Huh?) There were many confident proclamations of stuff that was just plain wrong, or contradicted by material elsewhere in the article. There was much pompous, bloated verbiage and bad English.]
Yes, the Quran states that human fate IS established forty days before birth. Which again underscores my point that orientialist or academics who think they know all about Islam should not be allowed to contribute as compared to real genuine and KNOWLEDGEABLE practising Muslims.
210.187.7.122 5:34 pm, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I just finished copyediting the article. I didn't do everything that needed to be done.
There is so much churn in this article that if you only look at the latest diffs (as I often do), you don't see changes made earlier. Hence various hands (probably anonymous) had filled up the article with pious references to the Prophet and sectarian or even bizarre statements. (Exact ratio of djinn to angels to humans? Human fate established forty days before birth? Huh?) There were many confident proclamations of stuff that was just plain wrong, or contradicted by material elsewhere in the article. There was much pompous, bloated verbiage and bad English.
The biggest problem left, IMHO, is all the material re schools, trends of thought, and remarks re contemporary Islam scattered throughout the article. All this material needs to be brought together in one place, and organized.
I don't think I've added anything controversial -- I've just deleted lots of cruft. Furthermore, I suspect that none of the regular editors wrote it, so I don't think I will have hurt any feelings. At least I hope I haven't. Zora 12:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
[I didn't write this statement. I added statements after that - the Siddhratul Muntaha bit.] -210.187.7.122
It is better to say "There is no god but God" than "There is no god but Allah" -- just because we have anti-Muslim bigots coming here claiming that Allah is not the same god as the Christian or Jewish god, but a different entity entirely. Using the word Allah in this one place just promotes misunderstanding.
Someone else changed my working in the "Symbols" section to read "Islam says". As Grenavitar tirelessly points out, Islam can't say a darn thing. It's various Muslims who proclaim what they believe is "true Islam". Since Muslims differ (often violently!) on what is true Islam, it is just not OK to use the phrase "Islam says". That puts Wikipedia in the position of declaring what is true Islam and what isn't. Wikipedia is not a member of the ulema and cannot give binding religious opinions <g>. Zora 12:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok "Zeno" let me try to explain something to you. It is not that difficult to understand. we are TRANSLATING a language here. "There is no God but Allah" is fine, but not translated. Do you think we should leave "Ilah" as it is ,and maybe "La" too? As you see this destroys the point of TRANSLATION. Please everybody watch out for this guy, he seems to be on a mission to misrepresent Islam. -Roc
-- Wibidabi 17:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with this Wibidabi? He appears o be talking to himself, because his stange cemantic arguments ahve no relevence to this article. It is not too hard to tell this guy's position on Islam, we all know it's a negative one. It is MY opinion that the hate in his heart leaves him in no position to write on this topic. I think he should look ito some sort of relaxation therapy. -Roc
Well, given that dab "knows better", it should be pointed out that in this article, either term; God or Allah can be used. Interestingly enough, Encarta uses the word God to refer to Him. Look at this article, look at how they translate the shahadah. Also, as you say that God is the English translation of Allah, then Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) may have some news on that (although that convention more properly refers to article titles). So far, theology has not become an issue. Izehar 17:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Both Christianity and Islam derive from Judaism - just thought you should know. Izehar 17:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I just wanted to add that apart from Ghassanids there were also the Muntherites. Indeed, the name of the Jewish leader who also was the Highest Priest in Madina before Islam came was "Abdallah Bin-Saba". You'd realize that some comments above are full of original research (re Why do Arab Christians say Allah? Because they are minority in an islamic majority region and have pragmatically learned over time that it is wiser to placate the Islamic majority.) If Allah wasn't the same as Aramaic Alaha or Jewish Elohim than we would have been living in a peaceful planet. For more info, pls have a look at this Talk:Islam/Archive 9#GOD Vs Allah. Cheers -- Svest 19:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
"we've been through this too often. If "Allah" doesn't translate to God, why do Arab Christians use Allah for "God"? -- dab" No dab, we have not been through this at all. We are discussing translation of the shahada specifically. I did not say that "Allah" doesn't translate to God, so please do not put words into my mouth. I am discussing the proper way to translate a specific text, and just because a translation is correct does not mean that it is proper. -- Zeno of Elea 07:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear Zora
You're right, only the hadith mentioned the 40-day event and not the Quran. Must have slipped my mind, I was reading about it only the other day. How fallible am I compared to God. I am sorry. I have also changed my viewpoint. Muslims AND non-Muslims (everyone really!) may insert articles about Islam as long as they are correct. Keep up the good work and further extending your depth in Islam! May God guide you! Bye... (P.S. if you need to contact me for any reason whatsoever, my e-mail is : ezanih@hotmail.com) - 210.187.7.122
You don't owe this dude no apology. You putting verses out of context is the hate in your heart for ISLAM manifesting itself on the internet. Don't you know that Islam is the most hated way of life on the World Wide Web?
May Allah guide you my friend. You look very determined and happy with the ill-conceived illusion about Islam being the most hated way of life ont the www. I think you owe an apology to Islam itself.
خرم Khurram 20:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I went over the first part of the article. Someone is putting two spaces instead of one between words. This is distracting. Also, various editors who must speak English as a second language had introduced some ungrammatical or unnecessarily verbose edits. The one major change I made was to remove all the detail from Zakat. That is just TOO MUCH for an introductory article and should be left in Zakat. If you hit readers over the head with too much detail, they'll just tune out. Zora 07:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I posted this on the Qu'ran page as well. People have singled out three different translations of the Qu'ran: A.J. Arberry; Abdallah Yusuf Ali; and Ahmed Ali. I have not yet read the Qu'ran and would like a reliable and well-regarded translation. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
No one is disputing that Allah == God. This is only a matter of what is the best way to translate the shahada (there are many ways a sentence can be translated). For a comprehensive discussion of this issue, please Talk:Islam#To_the_new_editors. Please stop reverting "there is no god but Allah" to "there is no god but God" without further discussing this issue. In my humble opinion, anyone who continues doing this revert without addressing the issues raised in the talk page should be permanently banned from editing this article. -- Zeno of Elea 09:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Currently the editing of the Baha'i Faith entry (and related entries) is dominated by Baha'is, who take the opportunity to downplay criticisms and in general slant their information in predictable directions. Please consider this a call for non-Baha'i editors to come have a look at the site, and help ensure balance. Thank you. Dawud 10:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me, I don't appreciate whoever keeps going right behind me and deleting the changes I make. Do you own the page? I was correcting and/or expanding some definitional clarifications and someone keeps deleting them. There was nothing controversial in the changes I was making, they were simply explanatory. I do not appreciate this whatsoever. Please stop and allow others to make some changes. I certainly was not being a troll, nor was I pushing any kind of agenda. 130.39.138.205 03:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC) Amira
Can we come up with something neutral and informative for the lead-in without offending anyone? I think that's one of the things the article needs to be featured, but I'm afraid to touch the page due to the high reversion, vandalism, etc rates. Jibbajabba 21:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
[I have deleted a great deal of bickering that had nothing to do with improving the article. I will of course not revert any restorations of text that someone finds germane to the purpose of this talk page, if any such text can be found in this morass. — Charles P. (Mirv) 08:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)]
Ok, why is the mention of the destruction of the World Trade Center and other islamic-based terrorism not listed here? It is like the Nazi Germany page not mentioning the holocaust at all. Jihad has consequences. You can bet those guys in those planes yelled 'allahu ackbar' as they went into the buildings. monty2
Agreed. If Christianity can mention Ireland, then we can certainly mention suicide bombings and planes flying into buildings here. GodHead 03:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello fellas. I see what you are saying. But if you are going to discuss Islamic extremism are you going to discuss the background of it or not. I mean Hitler II (formerly Monty2) is on a mission here. He does not want come up with any solution to any problem, merely to say over and over and over and over that "islam is bad". Hey Hitler II (Monty2) we get it you hate islam. If a serious discussion on islamic extremism and terrorism is going to take place then the causes of these effects should be discussed namely: imperialism and colonization, nationalism of which zionism is a form, and the neo-imperial practices of britan, france and the usa. Also, one should not forget pure, good old fashioned, racism when discussing western born islmic extremism as in france and britan of late and the usa with the nation of islam movement. Hey I'm not trying to excuse terrorism. But there are people out there like Hitler II (Monty2) who are bent on repeating the same old slogan over and over.
I think this article sorely needs to be written. There is great censorship in the muslim world which is why these articles have not been written yet. I can find little on the African slave trade even though it persisted into the 20th century and was far larger than the Western slave trade. (Anonymous User) May 24, 2006
Assalamo Alaykom, This statement was presented in the page of islam
This is wrong!
All Sunnis believe that ijtihad, or interpretation of Qur'an and Hadith is still not closed til now & untill the Day of Judgement (qiyama). Please take kare when you write about religion & specially Islam. thanks, Salamo Alaykom. -- unsigned by 196.218.12.203
With all due respect, Schact is a terrible source, largely discredited by later scholarship (see cites below). The original correction is absolutely right -- the 'gate of ijtihad' has never been closed. In the classical Islamic world (and until the present) a contraversy arose as to who was and is qualified to contribute to ijtihad, but the 'closing of the gates of ijtihad' is an essentially Orientalist notion inserted into Islamic scholarship by colonial and imperial scholars such as Schacht, Coulson, and Goldziher. What the colonial/imperial scholars were trying to portray was an Islamic system that was irretrievably broken. Hence a need was created: the replacement of the 'broken' system with a spiffy Western system, courtesy of the colonizers. It should be noted that eventually every system of law that was not Western was found lacking in turn, from Islamic to Hindu and so on. For more on the 'Gate of Ijtihad' issue, see Wael Hallaq, "Was the Gate of Ijtihad Closed?" (International Journal of Middle East Studies, 16, 1 (1984), pp. 3-41) For more on systematic Western decimation of Islamic and Hindu law, see Bernard Cohn, "Colonialism and its Forms of Knowledge" (Princeton University Press, 1996). Ebzmiller 08:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)ebzmiller
-Re 'interpretation on Qu'Ran' -- This is not at issue, although your statement is incorrect in addition to being unsigned. Ijtihad as a method of legal interpretation (which is what is being discussed here) has virtually nothing to do with Qur'anic exegesis. Ebzmiller 15:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC) ebzmiller
-As to the other (clearly informed) comment by Grenavitar, I know its a complex issue and I'm not for ignoring it -- I think it needs to be described by both scholars and Muslims as what it is, and to acknowledge the very critical and possibly inappropriate role of the West in defining Islamic law as frozen in a 'primitive' state from which it required rescuing. From what I understand from Dr. Hallaq, he can find no mention of the closing of the 'bab il-ijtihad' in the sources until very late in Islamic history, and when done by qualified scholars ijtihad was encouraged -- I'll review some notes and find out how late the first mentions of this 'closing' are, but I stand by the statement that this was never an important issue in a pejorative sense previous to a colonial/imperial context of denigrating the Islamic (and other) systems in order to impose a colonial/imperial order in the name of 'progress'. This is not to say that the 're-opening' doesn't need to occur: it is to say that it may be easier to see the way to do that with a full understanding of the mechanisms by which the 'bab' became characterized as 'closed'. There is also an interesting question to be addressed: why is taqlid 'bad'? In the US we have the concept of stare decisis -- both taqlid and stare decisis are essentially the principle that unless there is a really distinguishing aspect to a case, or a really overwhelming jurisprudential reason, the previous reasoning stands. This insures, if not justice, at least the stability of the legal system as a basis of forming rational expections as to what constitutes acceptable behavior. The Islamic legal system did not persist for many hundreds of years because it was stupid and never worked, rather the opposite. I think any rational Muslim could look at the system that had been used successfully for X-hundred years and conclude that they had a good thing going. The reason I argue this point about the gate of ijtihad issue so vehemently in the context of Wikipedia is that as a basic reference I would hate to think that it would play into stereotypes of Islamic law as primitive, or that someone seeking more information would take Schacht as authoritative compared to later scholarship that has taken place since the realization of the dynamic of Orientalism and the importance of power relationships in how history is characterized. Ebzmiller 15:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC) ebzmiller
In the US we have the concept of stare decisis -- both taqlid and stare decisis are essentially the principle that unless there is a really distinguishing aspect to a case, or a really overwhelming jurisprudential reason, the previous reasoning stands. This is the very nature of Ijtihad as far as I understand it. The door of Ijtihad is never closed and it will never close either but in order to do Ijtihad one needs to be a master of eight essentials branches of islamic studies including previous laws (fiqh), arabic language, hadith and quran to mention a few. Any Ijtihad done by a person who does not possess these qualities is not considered legitimate sine it is believed that such a person does not have the required knowledge to reject the previous decisions.
خرم Khurram 16:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
[personal attacks from 4.159.5.143, and responses thereto, deleted by — Charles P. (Mirv) 08:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)]
There are contemporary and Historicals pictures of Mohammed, whether or not Muslims find this offensive is negligible. Wikipedia is supposed to be Secular.-- GreekWarrior 19:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
This post is on the Muhammad Talk Page. Please continue the discussion there.
OPEN LETTER TO THE INCREDIBLY LAZY EDITORS OF THIS PAGE:: HOW IN ALL THAT IS HOLEY CAN YOU JUSTIFY ALL THE BIGOTRY THAT IS SPEWED ON YOUR WEBSITE UNDER THE NAME OF FREE SPEECH. THE DISCUSSION BOARD IS SUPPOSED TO FUNCTION TO FURTHER THE KNOWLEDGE OF EACH SUBJECT. A PLACE WHERE HONEST IGNORANCE CAN BE CURED BY DEBATE AND SINCERE DISCUSSION. WHERE OPINIONS ON THE SUBJECT CAN BE ARGUED BACK AND FORTH. I LIVE IN THE USA WHERE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS CHERICHED LIKE A NEWBORN INFANT. I UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN DISCUSSING RELIGION AND THEOLOGY SOME PEOPLE WILL GET OFFENDED. TRUST ME AS AN AMERICAM MUSLIM I KNOW THIS. BUT HOW THE HELL CAN YOU CALL A STATEMENT LIKE "Islam is poo" AN APT ARGUMENT. ANYONE WITH SUCH HATEFILLED STATEMENTS (AND THERE ARE PLENTY HERE) IS NOT INTRESTED IN DISCUSSION YOU ARE ONLY PROVIDING THEM WITH A PLATFORM TO SPEW THEIR FILTH. are there any Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, bahis or any one else out there who think that such hateful comments are inappropriate. or does everyone hate us. I'm loosing my hope in humanity --unsigned comment by: User:12.73.240.115
OK, I understand Islam is full of things that believers of it don't want others to know, but this is getting ridicilous. Every addition that I've made I have backed up with DETAILS FROM THE QU'RAN or one of the books themselves! I have quoted the scriptures! What is wrong with you people to keep deleting these?
You must not write history or an encyclopedia according to other peoples feelings! This article must keep all the facts INCLUDING THE JIZYA and what the jizya is, what is a dhimmi, etc.
If this helps any, from what I can see on his talk page GreekWarrior appears to have gotten the boot. -- Kizor 20:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I just removed these external links:
First of all, the red and black text on bright green used on those links is so harsh and difficult to read, that I don't expect readers of this article to going there and get anything useful out of that site. Anyway, Wikipedia is NOT a link directory. -- Aude 14:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we should let everybody know about this:
Grand Ayatullah al-Udhma Yusof al-Sanei has just declared suicide bombing as Haram: [2]
I think this is a very important fatwa that must be circulated.-- Zereshk 22:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody upload a good looking picture of Kaaba or Masjid al Haram , & put it in place of Aqsa mosque . I am not very knowledgeable on copy-right issues , so I dont know what to do. F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 21:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I just went over the article and deleted a whole buncha cruft that various determined POV warriors and linkspammers managed to insert without being noticed by regular editors. There's so much churn due to vandalism that it's easy to overlook changes. No major changes, just a lot of tiny one. Notable sneaky corrupters: the Fonsvitae spammer and Edip Yuksel's tiny Qur'an-alone group. I think this article is a strong candidate for semi-protection -- only letting registered editors with more than a certain number of edits have write privileges here. Zora 10:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Under the "God" section of the article we find: "No Muslim visual images or depictions of God exist because such artistic depictions may lead to idolatry and are thus prohibited. A similar position in Christian theology is termed iconoclasm." Technically, iconoclasm is the destruction of idols and religious icons, thus making it's reference an illegitimate parallel to idolatry. It must be noted that " idolatry" itself is also a term used in Christian theology. I recommend the deletion of: "A similar position in Christian theology is termed iconoclasm." If a more "christianized" synonym of "idolatry" is wanted in the article, then I recommend something along the lines of: "No Muslim visual images or depictions of God exist because such artistic depictions may lead to idolatry or iconolatry." The distinction between Muslim and Christian terminology isn't appropriate as definitions of both "idolatry" and "iconolatry" can apply equally to both religions.
I'm just tossing this out there. I know religious articles usually suffer from much vandalism and debate so I won't add my suggestion to the main article. I'll leave that to those who edit this article regularly. Either way, the term: "iconoclasm" doesn't make sense when used as a synonym to: "idolatry". Duffer 15:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
"Muslims hold that the Qur'an available today is the same as that revealed to Prophet Muhammad and by him to his followers, who memorized and wrote down his words"
Might be some good ideas on how to change this. There's considerable evidence that it was modified heavily and abridged shortly after mohammed died. At least some form of scientific truth should be added. Also, this article needs a lot of description of terrorism in islam through the ages. 206.103.66.134 09:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't have to do with any arguements, concerning the 'political correctness' of this page... I'd just like to say that I, personally, don't speak/read arabic and i was hoping someone that knows how some of these words are pronounced could show people like me. For instance the names of the holidays and things of that nature. I don't want to bring up Islam in an arguement/debate and butcher the names of Islamic celebrations and make myself look ignorant and ill-informed. Just a suggestion, good luck to everyone on further expansion on this topic (as well as others). -- Kamikazi 17:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello, great article. Here a suggestion:
I think this article needs a chart for Islam, a 'family-tree' with branches Sunni, Shii, Sufi, Wahabi, etc. Such an overview will help readers to understand these traditions and where to locate the many details that are connected to Islam. As an example, there is such a chart on the Christianity page: see Image:Christian-lineage.png. It mentions the main traditions, their relations, summarizes their history, the years of splits (different colors) and commonalities (same color).
-- ActiveSelective 10:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed " { { Terrorism } } " from near the top of the article because regardless of mass media in the West, which builds this bridge between Islam and criminality, this is NOT what Islam is about. Report all you like about criminals in Islam, however they have always been and will always be at most a tiny and despised minority of the 1.2 to 1.6 billion Muslims.
Sorry for any mistakes I make, I don't know much about Wikipedia. Thanks. 24.86.203.199 15:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Islam is linked with terrorism whether you like it or not. I realize that these people are a minority, however, the fact remains that all around the world, innocent people are being victimized by terrorists who draw their inspiration directly from the Muslim scriptures. They didn't just make these ideas up themselves. If you wish to promote ignorance then please do so on your own web page, not the Wikipedia. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
4.18.35.37 (
talk •
contribs) 18:20, Jan 20, 2006 (UTC)
I would have to agree with joturner that Mr./Ms. Anonymous needs to calm down! However, despite the unecessary rudeness, he/she/it may have a point about making at least some mention of radical Islam's ties to terrorism. I mean, joturner would you deny that such ties exisist at all? That being said, I think I should reiterate: Anonymous, take a chill pill! What do you all think? 24.130.228.70 05:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
1.) If you feel that there is inadequate mention of the violence linked with other religions then you should be talking about it on their respective discussion pages, not this one. Correct?
Inadequacies on another page do not mean that we should repeat those same inadequacies elsewhere so that every page can be equally inadequate right?
2.) We can't just pretend that Islam is terrorism free. Our world news scene today is dominated by stories of terrorists who are inspired to do their dirty work by ideas they got from the Qu'ran, and from the study of Muhammad's life and work. Is that statement incorrect? Are these people not devout Muslims who probably know more about the faith than many of us? Again, I would ask all of you to read my comments in light of what they are: an honest attempt to ask questions and discuss issues that need to be brought up. I am not attempting to smear the faith or its followers. I would like to hear your feedback. NetCruiser 19:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I suggest making a "Controversy" section like many articles have (a less generic name would be preferable of course). That section can cover not only terrorism and Islam but people like Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter who essentially think Islam is evil, and maybe briefly cover the topic of radically different interpretations of the Quran with a link to a main article.
By no means should the above mentioned template be on here; if it had to do with Muslim terrorism or controversy in the Muslim world, it might be more acceptable. Even then I would question its inclusion in this particular article, but at least then there would be a legitimate argument for its inclusion... Jibbajabba 21:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jibbajabba: a section on Muslim terrorism is appropriate, even I would say, necessary, whereas a general terrorism link is not. If we don't add any mention of terrorism, then it begins to look like it is being intentionally ignored -- the proverbial elephant in the room -- which would just fuel the fires of those who wish to attack Islam in general. 24.130.228.70 21:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
im new here just came across your site just wanted you guys to know its 5 pillars of isalm and 6 articles of faith
Not sure about terminology here: does the Suhuf-i-Ibrahim ('scrolls of Abraham') refer to the Tablets of Abraham ? My hunch is that it does. Also, I can find virtually no (reliable) information about them (got the reference from [4]) - probably because they are lost (according to the editor who mentioned them in the article). MP (talk) 12:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
In "Other beliefs" section , we had angels , which have been discussed in "Six articles of belief" section , then we had jinns , to which I have given a link in "See Also" section . Third one was magic , & I really dont think it can be considered a part of belief .
Also I have removed some links in see also section , the ones which were present in template or else where in the article . F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 19:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello. The Lebanese Muslim professor who visited my "Ideas and Values in the Humanities" course to lecture on Islam did not use the word "peaceful" in defining the word Islam. For that matter, he did not say "to the will of God," either; he said it meant "submission."
In my opinion, articles on certain subjects, especially certain religions, certain politicians and certain celebrities can never work in an encyclopedia compiled by writers not trained in professional standards of neutrality and objectivity. Look at what you've been saying about this article, with its "bloated verbiage" and "bizarre sectarian statements", and look at what happened to your George W. Bush article. It's hopeless, and just makes Wikipedia look ridiculous.
I suggest a new symbol to be used for all wikipedia islam articles. that mosque-like structure is getting old. i suggest a stylised fivepointed star. WoodElf 12:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Joturner wrote the following under the "Terrorism Portal" discussion: "No one has ever called Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh "Christian terrorists", and yet everyday Islam is being connected with terror in this manner."
Muslims often attempt to make this analogy, however, it is clearly false. Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh had to violate the Bible's explicit and implicit commands when they did their dirty work. They also had to run counter to the example of Christ. Muslim terrorists, however, can call upon numerous passages from the Qu'ran and various Hadiths to validate their actions. Muhammad was also an incredibly violent man. Please don't say that I "don't understand real Islam." I know how to read. If you would like me to cite the references from the Qu'ran I will do so, but I think that you know them already. These are facts, not opinions. This analogy fails miserably. If you have any sort of response that doesn't involve calling me, either directly or indirectly, "ignorant," or "bigoted," I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 20:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
RussianBoy, you claimed that Prophet Muhammad (p) was an "incredibly violent man". I have absolutely no doubt that you are amongst the group of people who hate Islam before you read. This is just one type of bias and is similar to those who love an ideology/religion/belief before they read. You claim that you know how to read, and I have no doubt that you do; but I am very certain that you are selective about your reading. This can be changed. In essence, it may very well be the case that people such as Joturner are wasting their time with you. Before learning about religion, and Prophet Muhammad's struggle to create a perfect society in accordance with God's commands, you need to do what many people need to do: learn how to use your intellect. Intellect is a strong guide for many issues. Intellect instructs you to be free of unfounded bias. Intellect guides you to analyse a subject in the correct order, and in its entirety. With comments such as yours, it is clearly evident that you have failed to this. It also clearly indicates your intentions. Of course, your comments have been repeated by many people throughout the centuries, and they have been answered by people time and time again. For the mean time, I shall make it clear that all of Prophet Muhammad's battles were defensive, not offensive. Secondly, one of Prophet Muhammad's objectives was a peaceful society. The evidence for this is in absolute abundance. Please clear your prejudices before you contribute to an encyclopedia. I advise that you read
War, Peace and Non-violence: An Islamic Perspective by Ayatullah Muhammad Shirazi.
Adamcaliph 00:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
OK guys, I must say that you all have done what I had hoped you wouldn't do. To repeat myself, I don't doubt that the majority of Muslims condemn violence, and that there are many Islamic schools of thought with various and conflicting interpretations of the Qur'an. My point, however, is that there is an important distinction to make: the minority groups in Islam who resort to violence are not an aberration to Islam but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad, whereas the Christian terrorists must betray the explicit teachings and example of Jesus Christ. In the temple, Jesus did not kill anyone, and we have no reason to believe that he got into any "fierce fist fighting," as you put it. Now, if he had his Qur'an with him at the time, he might have behaved differently, perhaps turning to 2:190-193, "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you... And slay them wherever ye catch them... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God..." Instead, when he and his disciples are accosted in the garden by armed men intending to do lethal violence, he tells Peter to put his sword away, and heals the man whom Peter wounded. How about 8:59-60: "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know..." All I am saying here is that those are strong words. Keep in mind, the Qur'an was supposedly dictated directly from God and is completely perfect. Finally, to the person who said that Muhammad wasn't violent, perhaps you should consider reading the earliest biography of the prophet Muhammad, written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era, translated into English under the title The Life of Muhammad by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955. It contains gems like this quote, attributed to the Prophet, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." (369) Hmmm.... or how about the many examples of the Prophet ordering assassinations? (See pages, 551, 550, 672, etc., etc., ad nauseum.). So in conclusion, I would just like to ask you all to stop saying the Qur'an is a "peaceful" book. It isn't! I can give you a dozen more quotes if you want to press the issue. Now, are there also "peace loving" quotes? Yes there are. I guess God contradicts himself in your world. Fair enough. RussianBoy 18:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
When do we pay so much attention to someone who is probably just a chrisian missionary? He calls himself "Russianboy". People often bring this extremist crap here and they really don't know anything about the bible especially being so stupid as to lie and call it a peaceful book. Stuff in there will show you just how sanguine christians really are. Russianboy's rant shows that christians are getting more miserable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:70.50.122.30 ( talk • contribs) .
Mr. Anonymous, I am a bit puzzled by your comments and actions. First you delete someone else's comment about the possibility of WWMD bracelets, which was pretty funny, and then you accuse me of a "rant.". Let's see here, in my "rant," I responded to someone else's argument directly with a counter argument of my own, using specific examples from relevant texts, which I cited as fully as I could. Now in your, "non-rant," you accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]" (ad hominem, I guess?), called my well reasoned arguments "extremist crap," said that I didn't, "know anything about the bible [sic]," even though you had just accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]," called me "stupid," called me a liar, and then said that "christians [sic] are getting more miserable," all while failing to respond to even a single one of my arguments, or provide any evidence for your asserstions (such as when you called me a "stupid" liar, for example). Finally, you failed to sign your post. Yes, I guess I am the one who is "ranting." Perhaps I should delete your comment like you did to that other guy? Please, if there is anyone who has anything intelligent to say, I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 19:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
First of all, you quote me as saying, "But the Islamic scriptures are more violent than Christian/Jewish/..." While this does capture the idea that I was attempting to convey, I never used that particular combination of words and so I would appreciate it in the future if you would only put quotes around my exact words.
In your last post, you begin by apparently admitting that yes, the Islamic scriptures do have more, “violence potential,” as you put it: “If it has more violence potential, it is only a matter of degree.” Then, however, in later paragraphs, you distance yourself from this stance, and argue that in fact it is the Christian faith that has more violence potential due to the fact that it explicitly condemns violence, even when provoked: “If you would force me to choose one, I would hesitate but finally choose [as having more violence potential] the philosophy that convinces victims to: ‘accept pain, not fight back…’” You go on to say, that, “If you really really really want to link terror to texts, than all this terror is linked to the nonviolence in the Bible.” So now the Bible promotes terror by explicitly condemning violent acts? Sir, with all due respect to you as an intelligent man (and clearly you are), this is bordering on the nonsensical. If you had strong examples of Biblical passages encouraging violent behavior I would imagine that you would have used them by now. It appears that since you do not have any, you have tried this tactic where you equate non-violence with increased violence.
You mention the law that all homosexuals should be stoned, and point out, correctly, that it is present in all three religions. Yet it is only in the Christian scripture that the aforementioned law is explicitly overturned. A reoccurring theme in the New Testament is the replacement of the old Jewish law with the new. Therefore, if you can find any Christian church sanctioned examples of homosexual stoning, those individuals would clearly be in violation of the scripture, whereas the same could not be said about those Muslims who choose to do so (it’s a pretty safe bet that the lawmakers in Saudi-Arabia have studied Islamic scriptures far more than you or I have). Furthermore, you say that the homosexual stoning example is, “a matter of urbanization, or the lack of it” and then go on to say that homosexuality is a crime in Saudi-Arabia. Are the government officials in Saudi Arabia not sufficiently urbanized?
You discuss the CIA and its alleged links to what you would term terrorist activity: “The CIA should top the list of terrorist groups, but it isn't there.” You make this claim despite your later assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” I will overlook that for now. With regards to the CIA’s involvement in terrorist activities, even if you could conclusively demonstrate that the CIA is directly responsible for more terrorist activities than every other terrorist group combined, it would still be irrelevant to our discussion. This thread was started in order to examine whether or not the Islamic scriptures are more pro-terrorist than the Judeo-Christian. The CIA is not a Christian organization in any sense, and so I don’t see why you bother to bring this into the conversation, except perhaps as some sort of red herring.
I will return briefly to your assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” This is a very popular viewpoint in our day, but I really don’t think it holds much weight. My dictionary defines terrorism in this way: “The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.” If a person or group fits those criteria then they are guilty of terrorism. Where is the ambiguity there? If that makes the CIA a terrorist organization, then fair enough.
You write that, “The terrorism list is not a good argument in general, and especially not a good argument this discussion on religion [sic],” but you fail to explain why it is such a poor argument. You simply state that it is. Do you believe that many of the terrorist groups listed there are fictitious? Do you think that many of them have been wrongly placed under the Islamic heading? If not, then I don’t see how you can criticize my using that list to demonstrate a connection between Islam and terrorism. Do you believe that the overwhelming majority of Islamic terrorist groups on that list is just a coincidence?
Lastly, you write: “Saddam? He must be linked to Al-Qaeda. I hope this bastard will rot in hell in a very painful way... but the link of Saddam to terrorism was simply not true. It has even been proven wrong.” This stance has become fairly well accepted over the past year or so, but there is an increasing amount of evidence to the contrary. In Deroy Murdock’s January 13, 2006 article from the ‘’National Review Online’’ he outlines some of this evidence, along with powerful evidence to suggest that Saddam was not the great secularist that many believed him to be.
In conclusion, A.S., I do not feel that you have responded to the arguments I made prior to your last post. You made some claims about the root causes of terrorism, and I presented some reasons why I believe your analysis to be incorrect. You then proceeded to talk about everything but my arguments, instead choosing to explore the CIA’s activity and your theories on how non-violence actually is the root cause of violence. Nowhere did you directly take on my arguments. In the future I would suggest that you do so, and if you don’t have any counter-arguments, it is acceptable to say, “Well you know MCB, you might have a point there,” and we can call it a day. I won’t think any less of you. Mcb197 17:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Might i add, this entire arguement is based on ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS [ie not accurate, nor 100% correct] versions of the Quran. It is best when someone looks to the Quran for other than jsut reading [such as studiyng, etc] that he use the arabic version, which is unchanged, might i suggest ordering one from egypt, or lebenon, saudi arabia edits thier books. Don't know arabic?..oh well, learn it. You don't do trigganometry without learning algerbra, you don't study a religioun revealed in arabic, without first learning arabic, that much should seem obvious.[i am refering to the first part of the argument, of course :)] - cronodevir
"Since this discussion is not about revising the wiki-article anymore, we should continu it elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a discussion board [sic]." Looking through this talk page, you didn't seem to have a problem using it as a discussion board previously. It would seem that since you are unable to respond to any of my original arguments, you have resorted to calling off the discussion. Why can't you just admit that maybe I have a point? Your whole idea about terrorism only being the product of poverty and oppression was completely destroyed by my original post, and then after I picked apart your red herring of a response, you come back with more of the same. I have already explained to you why the CIA is not relevant to this discussion, and yet you keep talking about it, making statements like, "...the list today leaves out the 'God Bless American' CIA of which almost all officers are Christians..." Would you care to explain how you got this information? When you are finished, would you care to explain how, even if every single person associated with the CIA, all the way down to the washroom attendant, were a Bible-thumping fundamentalist it would be in any way relevant to our discussion? And then when you are finished with that, please explain why you continue to call the CIA a terrorist organization, even after you made the following statement: "The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific." You say things like, "The newly invented word 'Judeo-Christian tradition' is also utterly strange. Christians have supressed, abused and slaughtered Jews throughout all centuries. 'Judeo-Christian' is a bad joke [sic]." Is this statement a "bad joke?" Do I really need to explain this linkage? You persist in holding to the idea that, "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." Go ahead and read that sentence again, and let it sink in: "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." This is amazing. If there are any objective parties out there that wish to agree with that statement, I would invite them to do so now.
Sir, you have now twice refused to deal with my arguments, instead choosing to lead us down numerous rabbit trails in your inane attempt to defend the Islamic faith at all costs, refusing to admit even the most painfully obvious linkages between Islam and terrorism. When you have butted up against that to which you have no response, you choose to throw out red herrings. If you ever do think of any sort of response that actually addresses my criticisms, I would love to hear it. If not, then I wish you the best of luck as you continue your Muslim apologetic crusade. (At this point please, please don't respond with, "But I'm an atheist! I have no stake in religion!" You might very well be an atheist, I don't know you, but I do know what you do on Wikipedia, and you clearly, for whatever reason, are very interested in defending Islam. Again, I am not questioning your commitment to atheism. I don't know why you are so interested in Islam, but you clearly are. (At this point I'm feeling a, "No! I am just interested in defending truth!" coming on! Perhaps, accusing me of being "unscientific," one of your favorite pet-insults, would buttress your argument nicely?)) Mcb197 15:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Since when has there been six? It's the five pillars, something I see no reference to in the article. Raven 00:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not. The Five Pillars are basic Islam. http://www.islam101.com/dawah/pillars.html http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/pillars.shtml
Raven 22:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I would have to say Zora: it's not your article but its everybody else's too. Gren, pls help!
This time, I don't really want to revert to my originals because I've read the article again and generally I would accept it as it is and perhaps it has been made more succinct this time. You win some, you lose some.
However, I think the article on Jhizya on the Dhimmis needs to be put in although briefly as you mentioned there is another link discussing on this. But I believe the Jizya tax NEEDS to be mentioned as it was a very important matter at that time.
I probably did crowd the paragraph on Syaria' since you say there is another link that covers it so I might consider putting it there. Anyway, thanks for summarizing that para.
You said : [I don't think I've added anything controversial -- I've just deleted lots of cruft. Furthermore, I suspect that none of the regular editors wrote it, so I don't think I will have hurt any feelings. At least I hope I haven't.]
No, I don't think you've heard anyone's feelings, Zora (at least certaintly not mine) but you shouldn't just be looking at regular editors. Many new readers like me stumble upon Wikipedia and this Islamic entry every day and they might have very useful things to add which I believe, IS the open spirit Wikipedia is based upon.
You said : [Human fate established forty days before birth? Huh?) There were many confident proclamations of stuff that was just plain wrong, or contradicted by material elsewhere in the article. There was much pompous, bloated verbiage and bad English.]
Yes, the Quran states that human fate IS established forty days before birth. Which again underscores my point that orientialist or academics who think they know all about Islam should not be allowed to contribute as compared to real genuine and KNOWLEDGEABLE practising Muslims.
210.187.7.122 5:34 pm, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I just finished copyediting the article. I didn't do everything that needed to be done.
There is so much churn in this article that if you only look at the latest diffs (as I often do), you don't see changes made earlier. Hence various hands (probably anonymous) had filled up the article with pious references to the Prophet and sectarian or even bizarre statements. (Exact ratio of djinn to angels to humans? Human fate established forty days before birth? Huh?) There were many confident proclamations of stuff that was just plain wrong, or contradicted by material elsewhere in the article. There was much pompous, bloated verbiage and bad English.
The biggest problem left, IMHO, is all the material re schools, trends of thought, and remarks re contemporary Islam scattered throughout the article. All this material needs to be brought together in one place, and organized.
I don't think I've added anything controversial -- I've just deleted lots of cruft. Furthermore, I suspect that none of the regular editors wrote it, so I don't think I will have hurt any feelings. At least I hope I haven't. Zora 12:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
[I didn't write this statement. I added statements after that - the Siddhratul Muntaha bit.] -210.187.7.122
It is better to say "There is no god but God" than "There is no god but Allah" -- just because we have anti-Muslim bigots coming here claiming that Allah is not the same god as the Christian or Jewish god, but a different entity entirely. Using the word Allah in this one place just promotes misunderstanding.
Someone else changed my working in the "Symbols" section to read "Islam says". As Grenavitar tirelessly points out, Islam can't say a darn thing. It's various Muslims who proclaim what they believe is "true Islam". Since Muslims differ (often violently!) on what is true Islam, it is just not OK to use the phrase "Islam says". That puts Wikipedia in the position of declaring what is true Islam and what isn't. Wikipedia is not a member of the ulema and cannot give binding religious opinions <g>. Zora 12:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok "Zeno" let me try to explain something to you. It is not that difficult to understand. we are TRANSLATING a language here. "There is no God but Allah" is fine, but not translated. Do you think we should leave "Ilah" as it is ,and maybe "La" too? As you see this destroys the point of TRANSLATION. Please everybody watch out for this guy, he seems to be on a mission to misrepresent Islam. -Roc
-- Wibidabi 17:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with this Wibidabi? He appears o be talking to himself, because his stange cemantic arguments ahve no relevence to this article. It is not too hard to tell this guy's position on Islam, we all know it's a negative one. It is MY opinion that the hate in his heart leaves him in no position to write on this topic. I think he should look ito some sort of relaxation therapy. -Roc
Well, given that dab "knows better", it should be pointed out that in this article, either term; God or Allah can be used. Interestingly enough, Encarta uses the word God to refer to Him. Look at this article, look at how they translate the shahadah. Also, as you say that God is the English translation of Allah, then Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) may have some news on that (although that convention more properly refers to article titles). So far, theology has not become an issue. Izehar 17:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Both Christianity and Islam derive from Judaism - just thought you should know. Izehar 17:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I just wanted to add that apart from Ghassanids there were also the Muntherites. Indeed, the name of the Jewish leader who also was the Highest Priest in Madina before Islam came was "Abdallah Bin-Saba". You'd realize that some comments above are full of original research (re Why do Arab Christians say Allah? Because they are minority in an islamic majority region and have pragmatically learned over time that it is wiser to placate the Islamic majority.) If Allah wasn't the same as Aramaic Alaha or Jewish Elohim than we would have been living in a peaceful planet. For more info, pls have a look at this Talk:Islam/Archive 9#GOD Vs Allah. Cheers -- Svest 19:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
"we've been through this too often. If "Allah" doesn't translate to God, why do Arab Christians use Allah for "God"? -- dab" No dab, we have not been through this at all. We are discussing translation of the shahada specifically. I did not say that "Allah" doesn't translate to God, so please do not put words into my mouth. I am discussing the proper way to translate a specific text, and just because a translation is correct does not mean that it is proper. -- Zeno of Elea 07:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear Zora
You're right, only the hadith mentioned the 40-day event and not the Quran. Must have slipped my mind, I was reading about it only the other day. How fallible am I compared to God. I am sorry. I have also changed my viewpoint. Muslims AND non-Muslims (everyone really!) may insert articles about Islam as long as they are correct. Keep up the good work and further extending your depth in Islam! May God guide you! Bye... (P.S. if you need to contact me for any reason whatsoever, my e-mail is : ezanih@hotmail.com) - 210.187.7.122
You don't owe this dude no apology. You putting verses out of context is the hate in your heart for ISLAM manifesting itself on the internet. Don't you know that Islam is the most hated way of life on the World Wide Web?
May Allah guide you my friend. You look very determined and happy with the ill-conceived illusion about Islam being the most hated way of life ont the www. I think you owe an apology to Islam itself.
خرم Khurram 20:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I went over the first part of the article. Someone is putting two spaces instead of one between words. This is distracting. Also, various editors who must speak English as a second language had introduced some ungrammatical or unnecessarily verbose edits. The one major change I made was to remove all the detail from Zakat. That is just TOO MUCH for an introductory article and should be left in Zakat. If you hit readers over the head with too much detail, they'll just tune out. Zora 07:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I posted this on the Qu'ran page as well. People have singled out three different translations of the Qu'ran: A.J. Arberry; Abdallah Yusuf Ali; and Ahmed Ali. I have not yet read the Qu'ran and would like a reliable and well-regarded translation. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
No one is disputing that Allah == God. This is only a matter of what is the best way to translate the shahada (there are many ways a sentence can be translated). For a comprehensive discussion of this issue, please Talk:Islam#To_the_new_editors. Please stop reverting "there is no god but Allah" to "there is no god but God" without further discussing this issue. In my humble opinion, anyone who continues doing this revert without addressing the issues raised in the talk page should be permanently banned from editing this article. -- Zeno of Elea 09:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Currently the editing of the Baha'i Faith entry (and related entries) is dominated by Baha'is, who take the opportunity to downplay criticisms and in general slant their information in predictable directions. Please consider this a call for non-Baha'i editors to come have a look at the site, and help ensure balance. Thank you. Dawud 10:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me, I don't appreciate whoever keeps going right behind me and deleting the changes I make. Do you own the page? I was correcting and/or expanding some definitional clarifications and someone keeps deleting them. There was nothing controversial in the changes I was making, they were simply explanatory. I do not appreciate this whatsoever. Please stop and allow others to make some changes. I certainly was not being a troll, nor was I pushing any kind of agenda. 130.39.138.205 03:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC) Amira
Can we come up with something neutral and informative for the lead-in without offending anyone? I think that's one of the things the article needs to be featured, but I'm afraid to touch the page due to the high reversion, vandalism, etc rates. Jibbajabba 21:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
[I have deleted a great deal of bickering that had nothing to do with improving the article. I will of course not revert any restorations of text that someone finds germane to the purpose of this talk page, if any such text can be found in this morass. — Charles P. (Mirv) 08:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)]
Ok, why is the mention of the destruction of the World Trade Center and other islamic-based terrorism not listed here? It is like the Nazi Germany page not mentioning the holocaust at all. Jihad has consequences. You can bet those guys in those planes yelled 'allahu ackbar' as they went into the buildings. monty2
Agreed. If Christianity can mention Ireland, then we can certainly mention suicide bombings and planes flying into buildings here. GodHead 03:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello fellas. I see what you are saying. But if you are going to discuss Islamic extremism are you going to discuss the background of it or not. I mean Hitler II (formerly Monty2) is on a mission here. He does not want come up with any solution to any problem, merely to say over and over and over and over that "islam is bad". Hey Hitler II (Monty2) we get it you hate islam. If a serious discussion on islamic extremism and terrorism is going to take place then the causes of these effects should be discussed namely: imperialism and colonization, nationalism of which zionism is a form, and the neo-imperial practices of britan, france and the usa. Also, one should not forget pure, good old fashioned, racism when discussing western born islmic extremism as in france and britan of late and the usa with the nation of islam movement. Hey I'm not trying to excuse terrorism. But there are people out there like Hitler II (Monty2) who are bent on repeating the same old slogan over and over.
I think this article sorely needs to be written. There is great censorship in the muslim world which is why these articles have not been written yet. I can find little on the African slave trade even though it persisted into the 20th century and was far larger than the Western slave trade. (Anonymous User) May 24, 2006
Assalamo Alaykom, This statement was presented in the page of islam
This is wrong!
All Sunnis believe that ijtihad, or interpretation of Qur'an and Hadith is still not closed til now & untill the Day of Judgement (qiyama). Please take kare when you write about religion & specially Islam. thanks, Salamo Alaykom. -- unsigned by 196.218.12.203
With all due respect, Schact is a terrible source, largely discredited by later scholarship (see cites below). The original correction is absolutely right -- the 'gate of ijtihad' has never been closed. In the classical Islamic world (and until the present) a contraversy arose as to who was and is qualified to contribute to ijtihad, but the 'closing of the gates of ijtihad' is an essentially Orientalist notion inserted into Islamic scholarship by colonial and imperial scholars such as Schacht, Coulson, and Goldziher. What the colonial/imperial scholars were trying to portray was an Islamic system that was irretrievably broken. Hence a need was created: the replacement of the 'broken' system with a spiffy Western system, courtesy of the colonizers. It should be noted that eventually every system of law that was not Western was found lacking in turn, from Islamic to Hindu and so on. For more on the 'Gate of Ijtihad' issue, see Wael Hallaq, "Was the Gate of Ijtihad Closed?" (International Journal of Middle East Studies, 16, 1 (1984), pp. 3-41) For more on systematic Western decimation of Islamic and Hindu law, see Bernard Cohn, "Colonialism and its Forms of Knowledge" (Princeton University Press, 1996). Ebzmiller 08:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)ebzmiller
-Re 'interpretation on Qu'Ran' -- This is not at issue, although your statement is incorrect in addition to being unsigned. Ijtihad as a method of legal interpretation (which is what is being discussed here) has virtually nothing to do with Qur'anic exegesis. Ebzmiller 15:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC) ebzmiller
-As to the other (clearly informed) comment by Grenavitar, I know its a complex issue and I'm not for ignoring it -- I think it needs to be described by both scholars and Muslims as what it is, and to acknowledge the very critical and possibly inappropriate role of the West in defining Islamic law as frozen in a 'primitive' state from which it required rescuing. From what I understand from Dr. Hallaq, he can find no mention of the closing of the 'bab il-ijtihad' in the sources until very late in Islamic history, and when done by qualified scholars ijtihad was encouraged -- I'll review some notes and find out how late the first mentions of this 'closing' are, but I stand by the statement that this was never an important issue in a pejorative sense previous to a colonial/imperial context of denigrating the Islamic (and other) systems in order to impose a colonial/imperial order in the name of 'progress'. This is not to say that the 're-opening' doesn't need to occur: it is to say that it may be easier to see the way to do that with a full understanding of the mechanisms by which the 'bab' became characterized as 'closed'. There is also an interesting question to be addressed: why is taqlid 'bad'? In the US we have the concept of stare decisis -- both taqlid and stare decisis are essentially the principle that unless there is a really distinguishing aspect to a case, or a really overwhelming jurisprudential reason, the previous reasoning stands. This insures, if not justice, at least the stability of the legal system as a basis of forming rational expections as to what constitutes acceptable behavior. The Islamic legal system did not persist for many hundreds of years because it was stupid and never worked, rather the opposite. I think any rational Muslim could look at the system that had been used successfully for X-hundred years and conclude that they had a good thing going. The reason I argue this point about the gate of ijtihad issue so vehemently in the context of Wikipedia is that as a basic reference I would hate to think that it would play into stereotypes of Islamic law as primitive, or that someone seeking more information would take Schacht as authoritative compared to later scholarship that has taken place since the realization of the dynamic of Orientalism and the importance of power relationships in how history is characterized. Ebzmiller 15:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC) ebzmiller
In the US we have the concept of stare decisis -- both taqlid and stare decisis are essentially the principle that unless there is a really distinguishing aspect to a case, or a really overwhelming jurisprudential reason, the previous reasoning stands. This is the very nature of Ijtihad as far as I understand it. The door of Ijtihad is never closed and it will never close either but in order to do Ijtihad one needs to be a master of eight essentials branches of islamic studies including previous laws (fiqh), arabic language, hadith and quran to mention a few. Any Ijtihad done by a person who does not possess these qualities is not considered legitimate sine it is believed that such a person does not have the required knowledge to reject the previous decisions.
خرم Khurram 16:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
[personal attacks from 4.159.5.143, and responses thereto, deleted by — Charles P. (Mirv) 08:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)]
There are contemporary and Historicals pictures of Mohammed, whether or not Muslims find this offensive is negligible. Wikipedia is supposed to be Secular.-- GreekWarrior 19:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
This post is on the Muhammad Talk Page. Please continue the discussion there.
OPEN LETTER TO THE INCREDIBLY LAZY EDITORS OF THIS PAGE:: HOW IN ALL THAT IS HOLEY CAN YOU JUSTIFY ALL THE BIGOTRY THAT IS SPEWED ON YOUR WEBSITE UNDER THE NAME OF FREE SPEECH. THE DISCUSSION BOARD IS SUPPOSED TO FUNCTION TO FURTHER THE KNOWLEDGE OF EACH SUBJECT. A PLACE WHERE HONEST IGNORANCE CAN BE CURED BY DEBATE AND SINCERE DISCUSSION. WHERE OPINIONS ON THE SUBJECT CAN BE ARGUED BACK AND FORTH. I LIVE IN THE USA WHERE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS CHERICHED LIKE A NEWBORN INFANT. I UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN DISCUSSING RELIGION AND THEOLOGY SOME PEOPLE WILL GET OFFENDED. TRUST ME AS AN AMERICAM MUSLIM I KNOW THIS. BUT HOW THE HELL CAN YOU CALL A STATEMENT LIKE "Islam is poo" AN APT ARGUMENT. ANYONE WITH SUCH HATEFILLED STATEMENTS (AND THERE ARE PLENTY HERE) IS NOT INTRESTED IN DISCUSSION YOU ARE ONLY PROVIDING THEM WITH A PLATFORM TO SPEW THEIR FILTH. are there any Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, bahis or any one else out there who think that such hateful comments are inappropriate. or does everyone hate us. I'm loosing my hope in humanity --unsigned comment by: User:12.73.240.115
OK, I understand Islam is full of things that believers of it don't want others to know, but this is getting ridicilous. Every addition that I've made I have backed up with DETAILS FROM THE QU'RAN or one of the books themselves! I have quoted the scriptures! What is wrong with you people to keep deleting these?
You must not write history or an encyclopedia according to other peoples feelings! This article must keep all the facts INCLUDING THE JIZYA and what the jizya is, what is a dhimmi, etc.
If this helps any, from what I can see on his talk page GreekWarrior appears to have gotten the boot. -- Kizor 20:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I just removed these external links:
First of all, the red and black text on bright green used on those links is so harsh and difficult to read, that I don't expect readers of this article to going there and get anything useful out of that site. Anyway, Wikipedia is NOT a link directory. -- Aude 14:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we should let everybody know about this:
Grand Ayatullah al-Udhma Yusof al-Sanei has just declared suicide bombing as Haram: [2]
I think this is a very important fatwa that must be circulated.-- Zereshk 22:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody upload a good looking picture of Kaaba or Masjid al Haram , & put it in place of Aqsa mosque . I am not very knowledgeable on copy-right issues , so I dont know what to do. F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 21:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I just went over the article and deleted a whole buncha cruft that various determined POV warriors and linkspammers managed to insert without being noticed by regular editors. There's so much churn due to vandalism that it's easy to overlook changes. No major changes, just a lot of tiny one. Notable sneaky corrupters: the Fonsvitae spammer and Edip Yuksel's tiny Qur'an-alone group. I think this article is a strong candidate for semi-protection -- only letting registered editors with more than a certain number of edits have write privileges here. Zora 10:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Under the "God" section of the article we find: "No Muslim visual images or depictions of God exist because such artistic depictions may lead to idolatry and are thus prohibited. A similar position in Christian theology is termed iconoclasm." Technically, iconoclasm is the destruction of idols and religious icons, thus making it's reference an illegitimate parallel to idolatry. It must be noted that " idolatry" itself is also a term used in Christian theology. I recommend the deletion of: "A similar position in Christian theology is termed iconoclasm." If a more "christianized" synonym of "idolatry" is wanted in the article, then I recommend something along the lines of: "No Muslim visual images or depictions of God exist because such artistic depictions may lead to idolatry or iconolatry." The distinction between Muslim and Christian terminology isn't appropriate as definitions of both "idolatry" and "iconolatry" can apply equally to both religions.
I'm just tossing this out there. I know religious articles usually suffer from much vandalism and debate so I won't add my suggestion to the main article. I'll leave that to those who edit this article regularly. Either way, the term: "iconoclasm" doesn't make sense when used as a synonym to: "idolatry". Duffer 15:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
"Muslims hold that the Qur'an available today is the same as that revealed to Prophet Muhammad and by him to his followers, who memorized and wrote down his words"
Might be some good ideas on how to change this. There's considerable evidence that it was modified heavily and abridged shortly after mohammed died. At least some form of scientific truth should be added. Also, this article needs a lot of description of terrorism in islam through the ages. 206.103.66.134 09:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't have to do with any arguements, concerning the 'political correctness' of this page... I'd just like to say that I, personally, don't speak/read arabic and i was hoping someone that knows how some of these words are pronounced could show people like me. For instance the names of the holidays and things of that nature. I don't want to bring up Islam in an arguement/debate and butcher the names of Islamic celebrations and make myself look ignorant and ill-informed. Just a suggestion, good luck to everyone on further expansion on this topic (as well as others). -- Kamikazi 17:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello, great article. Here a suggestion:
I think this article needs a chart for Islam, a 'family-tree' with branches Sunni, Shii, Sufi, Wahabi, etc. Such an overview will help readers to understand these traditions and where to locate the many details that are connected to Islam. As an example, there is such a chart on the Christianity page: see Image:Christian-lineage.png. It mentions the main traditions, their relations, summarizes their history, the years of splits (different colors) and commonalities (same color).
-- ActiveSelective 10:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed " { { Terrorism } } " from near the top of the article because regardless of mass media in the West, which builds this bridge between Islam and criminality, this is NOT what Islam is about. Report all you like about criminals in Islam, however they have always been and will always be at most a tiny and despised minority of the 1.2 to 1.6 billion Muslims.
Sorry for any mistakes I make, I don't know much about Wikipedia. Thanks. 24.86.203.199 15:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Islam is linked with terrorism whether you like it or not. I realize that these people are a minority, however, the fact remains that all around the world, innocent people are being victimized by terrorists who draw their inspiration directly from the Muslim scriptures. They didn't just make these ideas up themselves. If you wish to promote ignorance then please do so on your own web page, not the Wikipedia. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
4.18.35.37 (
talk •
contribs) 18:20, Jan 20, 2006 (UTC)
I would have to agree with joturner that Mr./Ms. Anonymous needs to calm down! However, despite the unecessary rudeness, he/she/it may have a point about making at least some mention of radical Islam's ties to terrorism. I mean, joturner would you deny that such ties exisist at all? That being said, I think I should reiterate: Anonymous, take a chill pill! What do you all think? 24.130.228.70 05:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
1.) If you feel that there is inadequate mention of the violence linked with other religions then you should be talking about it on their respective discussion pages, not this one. Correct?
Inadequacies on another page do not mean that we should repeat those same inadequacies elsewhere so that every page can be equally inadequate right?
2.) We can't just pretend that Islam is terrorism free. Our world news scene today is dominated by stories of terrorists who are inspired to do their dirty work by ideas they got from the Qu'ran, and from the study of Muhammad's life and work. Is that statement incorrect? Are these people not devout Muslims who probably know more about the faith than many of us? Again, I would ask all of you to read my comments in light of what they are: an honest attempt to ask questions and discuss issues that need to be brought up. I am not attempting to smear the faith or its followers. I would like to hear your feedback. NetCruiser 19:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I suggest making a "Controversy" section like many articles have (a less generic name would be preferable of course). That section can cover not only terrorism and Islam but people like Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter who essentially think Islam is evil, and maybe briefly cover the topic of radically different interpretations of the Quran with a link to a main article.
By no means should the above mentioned template be on here; if it had to do with Muslim terrorism or controversy in the Muslim world, it might be more acceptable. Even then I would question its inclusion in this particular article, but at least then there would be a legitimate argument for its inclusion... Jibbajabba 21:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jibbajabba: a section on Muslim terrorism is appropriate, even I would say, necessary, whereas a general terrorism link is not. If we don't add any mention of terrorism, then it begins to look like it is being intentionally ignored -- the proverbial elephant in the room -- which would just fuel the fires of those who wish to attack Islam in general. 24.130.228.70 21:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
im new here just came across your site just wanted you guys to know its 5 pillars of isalm and 6 articles of faith
Not sure about terminology here: does the Suhuf-i-Ibrahim ('scrolls of Abraham') refer to the Tablets of Abraham ? My hunch is that it does. Also, I can find virtually no (reliable) information about them (got the reference from [4]) - probably because they are lost (according to the editor who mentioned them in the article). MP (talk) 12:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
In "Other beliefs" section , we had angels , which have been discussed in "Six articles of belief" section , then we had jinns , to which I have given a link in "See Also" section . Third one was magic , & I really dont think it can be considered a part of belief .
Also I have removed some links in see also section , the ones which were present in template or else where in the article . F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 19:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello. The Lebanese Muslim professor who visited my "Ideas and Values in the Humanities" course to lecture on Islam did not use the word "peaceful" in defining the word Islam. For that matter, he did not say "to the will of God," either; he said it meant "submission."
In my opinion, articles on certain subjects, especially certain religions, certain politicians and certain celebrities can never work in an encyclopedia compiled by writers not trained in professional standards of neutrality and objectivity. Look at what you've been saying about this article, with its "bloated verbiage" and "bizarre sectarian statements", and look at what happened to your George W. Bush article. It's hopeless, and just makes Wikipedia look ridiculous.
I suggest a new symbol to be used for all wikipedia islam articles. that mosque-like structure is getting old. i suggest a stylised fivepointed star. WoodElf 12:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Joturner wrote the following under the "Terrorism Portal" discussion: "No one has ever called Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh "Christian terrorists", and yet everyday Islam is being connected with terror in this manner."
Muslims often attempt to make this analogy, however, it is clearly false. Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh had to violate the Bible's explicit and implicit commands when they did their dirty work. They also had to run counter to the example of Christ. Muslim terrorists, however, can call upon numerous passages from the Qu'ran and various Hadiths to validate their actions. Muhammad was also an incredibly violent man. Please don't say that I "don't understand real Islam." I know how to read. If you would like me to cite the references from the Qu'ran I will do so, but I think that you know them already. These are facts, not opinions. This analogy fails miserably. If you have any sort of response that doesn't involve calling me, either directly or indirectly, "ignorant," or "bigoted," I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 20:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
RussianBoy, you claimed that Prophet Muhammad (p) was an "incredibly violent man". I have absolutely no doubt that you are amongst the group of people who hate Islam before you read. This is just one type of bias and is similar to those who love an ideology/religion/belief before they read. You claim that you know how to read, and I have no doubt that you do; but I am very certain that you are selective about your reading. This can be changed. In essence, it may very well be the case that people such as Joturner are wasting their time with you. Before learning about religion, and Prophet Muhammad's struggle to create a perfect society in accordance with God's commands, you need to do what many people need to do: learn how to use your intellect. Intellect is a strong guide for many issues. Intellect instructs you to be free of unfounded bias. Intellect guides you to analyse a subject in the correct order, and in its entirety. With comments such as yours, it is clearly evident that you have failed to this. It also clearly indicates your intentions. Of course, your comments have been repeated by many people throughout the centuries, and they have been answered by people time and time again. For the mean time, I shall make it clear that all of Prophet Muhammad's battles were defensive, not offensive. Secondly, one of Prophet Muhammad's objectives was a peaceful society. The evidence for this is in absolute abundance. Please clear your prejudices before you contribute to an encyclopedia. I advise that you read
War, Peace and Non-violence: An Islamic Perspective by Ayatullah Muhammad Shirazi.
Adamcaliph 00:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
OK guys, I must say that you all have done what I had hoped you wouldn't do. To repeat myself, I don't doubt that the majority of Muslims condemn violence, and that there are many Islamic schools of thought with various and conflicting interpretations of the Qur'an. My point, however, is that there is an important distinction to make: the minority groups in Islam who resort to violence are not an aberration to Islam but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad, whereas the Christian terrorists must betray the explicit teachings and example of Jesus Christ. In the temple, Jesus did not kill anyone, and we have no reason to believe that he got into any "fierce fist fighting," as you put it. Now, if he had his Qur'an with him at the time, he might have behaved differently, perhaps turning to 2:190-193, "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you... And slay them wherever ye catch them... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God..." Instead, when he and his disciples are accosted in the garden by armed men intending to do lethal violence, he tells Peter to put his sword away, and heals the man whom Peter wounded. How about 8:59-60: "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know..." All I am saying here is that those are strong words. Keep in mind, the Qur'an was supposedly dictated directly from God and is completely perfect. Finally, to the person who said that Muhammad wasn't violent, perhaps you should consider reading the earliest biography of the prophet Muhammad, written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era, translated into English under the title The Life of Muhammad by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955. It contains gems like this quote, attributed to the Prophet, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." (369) Hmmm.... or how about the many examples of the Prophet ordering assassinations? (See pages, 551, 550, 672, etc., etc., ad nauseum.). So in conclusion, I would just like to ask you all to stop saying the Qur'an is a "peaceful" book. It isn't! I can give you a dozen more quotes if you want to press the issue. Now, are there also "peace loving" quotes? Yes there are. I guess God contradicts himself in your world. Fair enough. RussianBoy 18:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
When do we pay so much attention to someone who is probably just a chrisian missionary? He calls himself "Russianboy". People often bring this extremist crap here and they really don't know anything about the bible especially being so stupid as to lie and call it a peaceful book. Stuff in there will show you just how sanguine christians really are. Russianboy's rant shows that christians are getting more miserable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:70.50.122.30 ( talk • contribs) .
Mr. Anonymous, I am a bit puzzled by your comments and actions. First you delete someone else's comment about the possibility of WWMD bracelets, which was pretty funny, and then you accuse me of a "rant.". Let's see here, in my "rant," I responded to someone else's argument directly with a counter argument of my own, using specific examples from relevant texts, which I cited as fully as I could. Now in your, "non-rant," you accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]" (ad hominem, I guess?), called my well reasoned arguments "extremist crap," said that I didn't, "know anything about the bible [sic]," even though you had just accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]," called me "stupid," called me a liar, and then said that "christians [sic] are getting more miserable," all while failing to respond to even a single one of my arguments, or provide any evidence for your asserstions (such as when you called me a "stupid" liar, for example). Finally, you failed to sign your post. Yes, I guess I am the one who is "ranting." Perhaps I should delete your comment like you did to that other guy? Please, if there is anyone who has anything intelligent to say, I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 19:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
First of all, you quote me as saying, "But the Islamic scriptures are more violent than Christian/Jewish/..." While this does capture the idea that I was attempting to convey, I never used that particular combination of words and so I would appreciate it in the future if you would only put quotes around my exact words.
In your last post, you begin by apparently admitting that yes, the Islamic scriptures do have more, “violence potential,” as you put it: “If it has more violence potential, it is only a matter of degree.” Then, however, in later paragraphs, you distance yourself from this stance, and argue that in fact it is the Christian faith that has more violence potential due to the fact that it explicitly condemns violence, even when provoked: “If you would force me to choose one, I would hesitate but finally choose [as having more violence potential] the philosophy that convinces victims to: ‘accept pain, not fight back…’” You go on to say, that, “If you really really really want to link terror to texts, than all this terror is linked to the nonviolence in the Bible.” So now the Bible promotes terror by explicitly condemning violent acts? Sir, with all due respect to you as an intelligent man (and clearly you are), this is bordering on the nonsensical. If you had strong examples of Biblical passages encouraging violent behavior I would imagine that you would have used them by now. It appears that since you do not have any, you have tried this tactic where you equate non-violence with increased violence.
You mention the law that all homosexuals should be stoned, and point out, correctly, that it is present in all three religions. Yet it is only in the Christian scripture that the aforementioned law is explicitly overturned. A reoccurring theme in the New Testament is the replacement of the old Jewish law with the new. Therefore, if you can find any Christian church sanctioned examples of homosexual stoning, those individuals would clearly be in violation of the scripture, whereas the same could not be said about those Muslims who choose to do so (it’s a pretty safe bet that the lawmakers in Saudi-Arabia have studied Islamic scriptures far more than you or I have). Furthermore, you say that the homosexual stoning example is, “a matter of urbanization, or the lack of it” and then go on to say that homosexuality is a crime in Saudi-Arabia. Are the government officials in Saudi Arabia not sufficiently urbanized?
You discuss the CIA and its alleged links to what you would term terrorist activity: “The CIA should top the list of terrorist groups, but it isn't there.” You make this claim despite your later assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” I will overlook that for now. With regards to the CIA’s involvement in terrorist activities, even if you could conclusively demonstrate that the CIA is directly responsible for more terrorist activities than every other terrorist group combined, it would still be irrelevant to our discussion. This thread was started in order to examine whether or not the Islamic scriptures are more pro-terrorist than the Judeo-Christian. The CIA is not a Christian organization in any sense, and so I don’t see why you bother to bring this into the conversation, except perhaps as some sort of red herring.
I will return briefly to your assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” This is a very popular viewpoint in our day, but I really don’t think it holds much weight. My dictionary defines terrorism in this way: “The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.” If a person or group fits those criteria then they are guilty of terrorism. Where is the ambiguity there? If that makes the CIA a terrorist organization, then fair enough.
You write that, “The terrorism list is not a good argument in general, and especially not a good argument this discussion on religion [sic],” but you fail to explain why it is such a poor argument. You simply state that it is. Do you believe that many of the terrorist groups listed there are fictitious? Do you think that many of them have been wrongly placed under the Islamic heading? If not, then I don’t see how you can criticize my using that list to demonstrate a connection between Islam and terrorism. Do you believe that the overwhelming majority of Islamic terrorist groups on that list is just a coincidence?
Lastly, you write: “Saddam? He must be linked to Al-Qaeda. I hope this bastard will rot in hell in a very painful way... but the link of Saddam to terrorism was simply not true. It has even been proven wrong.” This stance has become fairly well accepted over the past year or so, but there is an increasing amount of evidence to the contrary. In Deroy Murdock’s January 13, 2006 article from the ‘’National Review Online’’ he outlines some of this evidence, along with powerful evidence to suggest that Saddam was not the great secularist that many believed him to be.
In conclusion, A.S., I do not feel that you have responded to the arguments I made prior to your last post. You made some claims about the root causes of terrorism, and I presented some reasons why I believe your analysis to be incorrect. You then proceeded to talk about everything but my arguments, instead choosing to explore the CIA’s activity and your theories on how non-violence actually is the root cause of violence. Nowhere did you directly take on my arguments. In the future I would suggest that you do so, and if you don’t have any counter-arguments, it is acceptable to say, “Well you know MCB, you might have a point there,” and we can call it a day. I won’t think any less of you. Mcb197 17:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Might i add, this entire arguement is based on ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS [ie not accurate, nor 100% correct] versions of the Quran. It is best when someone looks to the Quran for other than jsut reading [such as studiyng, etc] that he use the arabic version, which is unchanged, might i suggest ordering one from egypt, or lebenon, saudi arabia edits thier books. Don't know arabic?..oh well, learn it. You don't do trigganometry without learning algerbra, you don't study a religioun revealed in arabic, without first learning arabic, that much should seem obvious.[i am refering to the first part of the argument, of course :)] - cronodevir
"Since this discussion is not about revising the wiki-article anymore, we should continu it elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a discussion board [sic]." Looking through this talk page, you didn't seem to have a problem using it as a discussion board previously. It would seem that since you are unable to respond to any of my original arguments, you have resorted to calling off the discussion. Why can't you just admit that maybe I have a point? Your whole idea about terrorism only being the product of poverty and oppression was completely destroyed by my original post, and then after I picked apart your red herring of a response, you come back with more of the same. I have already explained to you why the CIA is not relevant to this discussion, and yet you keep talking about it, making statements like, "...the list today leaves out the 'God Bless American' CIA of which almost all officers are Christians..." Would you care to explain how you got this information? When you are finished, would you care to explain how, even if every single person associated with the CIA, all the way down to the washroom attendant, were a Bible-thumping fundamentalist it would be in any way relevant to our discussion? And then when you are finished with that, please explain why you continue to call the CIA a terrorist organization, even after you made the following statement: "The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific." You say things like, "The newly invented word 'Judeo-Christian tradition' is also utterly strange. Christians have supressed, abused and slaughtered Jews throughout all centuries. 'Judeo-Christian' is a bad joke [sic]." Is this statement a "bad joke?" Do I really need to explain this linkage? You persist in holding to the idea that, "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." Go ahead and read that sentence again, and let it sink in: "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." This is amazing. If there are any objective parties out there that wish to agree with that statement, I would invite them to do so now.
Sir, you have now twice refused to deal with my arguments, instead choosing to lead us down numerous rabbit trails in your inane attempt to defend the Islamic faith at all costs, refusing to admit even the most painfully obvious linkages between Islam and terrorism. When you have butted up against that to which you have no response, you choose to throw out red herrings. If you ever do think of any sort of response that actually addresses my criticisms, I would love to hear it. If not, then I wish you the best of luck as you continue your Muslim apologetic crusade. (At this point please, please don't respond with, "But I'm an atheist! I have no stake in religion!" You might very well be an atheist, I don't know you, but I do know what you do on Wikipedia, and you clearly, for whatever reason, are very interested in defending Islam. Again, I am not questioning your commitment to atheism. I don't know why you are so interested in Islam, but you clearly are. (At this point I'm feeling a, "No! I am just interested in defending truth!" coming on! Perhaps, accusing me of being "unscientific," one of your favorite pet-insults, would buttress your argument nicely?)) Mcb197 15:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)