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Hi,
I want to make a separete article for this mood as it is getting quite long and unruly here. However, i do not know what to call the page - one of the abovementioned names; all of them; which one?
Please hold the discussion on the Gram Mood talk page. BigSteve ( talk) 08:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
German's present subjunctive as in er sei tot "he is [said to be] dead" opposed to er ist tot "he is dead" seems indistinct from the inferential or renarrative mood described in the article. Are they the same mood? Icelandic has an identical mood. macjacobus ( talk) 04:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
German: “er gilt als tot“ (He is said to be dead). Otherwise, “er sei tot“ should translated into “he be dead“ because of indirect knowledge of his potential dead. Iralwynn ( talk) 13:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think that "Let's go." is an imperative. It's a hortative. The main article on hortatives identifies it as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.92.117 ( talk) 02:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
‘let‘ < imperative, thus let us go is an imperative. Iralwynn ( talk) 13:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
This article states that there are no hortatives in English, but the main article on hortatives cites numerous examples from English. 70.179.92.117 ( talk) 02:24, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
"In English, too, the would + infinitive construct can be employed in main clauses, with a subjunctive sense: "If you would only tell me what is troubling you, I might be able to help"."
Wrong. Not main, but subordinate. Yes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Constantinehuk ( talk • contribs) 00:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Infintives aren't obligatorily with a ‘to‘, that is just a misconception of a lot of English linguists. The English language is better studied by foreigners than Englishmen themselves. Iralwynn ( talk) 13:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Iralwynn ( talk · contribs) keeps changing the English examples for the desiderative and dubitative moods in the table. Both Botterweg14 ( talk · contribs) and I believe that their examples are ungrammatical and have reversed their edits, but they keep changing it back. Could we have a third party chime in? Zhen Zhen ( talk) 01:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
We may be missing contemplative mood, either entirely or by failing to equate it with another term that is more often used for the same thing. It occurs in Tagalog. We're redlinking it at Interlinear gloss, possibly some other places. Tagalog grammar#Contemplative (Magaganap/Kontemplatibo) seems to suggest this is an aspect rather than a mood. This is outside the kind of linguistics I studied at university in any detail, so I'll leave it to others to sort out what to do with this. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
There is a thin (and fuzzy) line between a grammatical mood, generally defined as morphological/inflectional marking on a verb, and other ways to express that same mood. I've added some obvious oversights about Japanese irrealis moods, notably the Hortative (which is one of the five basic conjugations of a Japanese verb). But Japanese has plenty of ways to express many of these moods through verb conjugations. E.g., are the different inflectional structures to express necessity (-nakereba naranai, -nakute naranai) examples of a necessitative mood?
Further, I think it's a shame that the various dialects of Chinese are not represented on this page. Yes, Chinese is a prototypical analytic language, but there are certain adverbs that are ubiquitous markers of mood. I'm thinking specifically of 竟然 (jingran) and 居然 (juran), which respectively express relatively neutral surprise and strongly negative surprise. Unsurprisingly, they don't carry meaningful semantic content and don't translate well. I'd consider these examples of a mirative mood, though I've never seen them described this way in descriptive grammars of Chinese. At least for the lay reader, the fact that Mandarin specifically can unambiguously encode this mood should be of interest, even if linguists may quibble, and hence I decided to include it. Yukuefumei ( talk) 17:36, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
It seems like many languages have the interrogative mood. For example, isn´t this English sentence in the interrogative mood?
I'm asking earnestly because I don't have the expertise to say. But seeing the table limited to Welsh and Nenets makes me think that this is a relatively uncommon mood, like the eventive mood and Finnish. It makes me doubt that I know what the interrogative mood is. I'm all for highlighting some languages with less speakers, but couldn't this row have a few more example languages (or even Language families)? GottaBeAName ( talk) 16:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
toy otishal= toi otişăl Athanasius V ( talk) 10:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Irrealis mood article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
Hi,
I want to make a separete article for this mood as it is getting quite long and unruly here. However, i do not know what to call the page - one of the abovementioned names; all of them; which one?
Please hold the discussion on the Gram Mood talk page. BigSteve ( talk) 08:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
German's present subjunctive as in er sei tot "he is [said to be] dead" opposed to er ist tot "he is dead" seems indistinct from the inferential or renarrative mood described in the article. Are they the same mood? Icelandic has an identical mood. macjacobus ( talk) 04:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
German: “er gilt als tot“ (He is said to be dead). Otherwise, “er sei tot“ should translated into “he be dead“ because of indirect knowledge of his potential dead. Iralwynn ( talk) 13:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think that "Let's go." is an imperative. It's a hortative. The main article on hortatives identifies it as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.92.117 ( talk) 02:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
‘let‘ < imperative, thus let us go is an imperative. Iralwynn ( talk) 13:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
This article states that there are no hortatives in English, but the main article on hortatives cites numerous examples from English. 70.179.92.117 ( talk) 02:24, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
"In English, too, the would + infinitive construct can be employed in main clauses, with a subjunctive sense: "If you would only tell me what is troubling you, I might be able to help"."
Wrong. Not main, but subordinate. Yes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Constantinehuk ( talk • contribs) 00:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Infintives aren't obligatorily with a ‘to‘, that is just a misconception of a lot of English linguists. The English language is better studied by foreigners than Englishmen themselves. Iralwynn ( talk) 13:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Iralwynn ( talk · contribs) keeps changing the English examples for the desiderative and dubitative moods in the table. Both Botterweg14 ( talk · contribs) and I believe that their examples are ungrammatical and have reversed their edits, but they keep changing it back. Could we have a third party chime in? Zhen Zhen ( talk) 01:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
We may be missing contemplative mood, either entirely or by failing to equate it with another term that is more often used for the same thing. It occurs in Tagalog. We're redlinking it at Interlinear gloss, possibly some other places. Tagalog grammar#Contemplative (Magaganap/Kontemplatibo) seems to suggest this is an aspect rather than a mood. This is outside the kind of linguistics I studied at university in any detail, so I'll leave it to others to sort out what to do with this. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
There is a thin (and fuzzy) line between a grammatical mood, generally defined as morphological/inflectional marking on a verb, and other ways to express that same mood. I've added some obvious oversights about Japanese irrealis moods, notably the Hortative (which is one of the five basic conjugations of a Japanese verb). But Japanese has plenty of ways to express many of these moods through verb conjugations. E.g., are the different inflectional structures to express necessity (-nakereba naranai, -nakute naranai) examples of a necessitative mood?
Further, I think it's a shame that the various dialects of Chinese are not represented on this page. Yes, Chinese is a prototypical analytic language, but there are certain adverbs that are ubiquitous markers of mood. I'm thinking specifically of 竟然 (jingran) and 居然 (juran), which respectively express relatively neutral surprise and strongly negative surprise. Unsurprisingly, they don't carry meaningful semantic content and don't translate well. I'd consider these examples of a mirative mood, though I've never seen them described this way in descriptive grammars of Chinese. At least for the lay reader, the fact that Mandarin specifically can unambiguously encode this mood should be of interest, even if linguists may quibble, and hence I decided to include it. Yukuefumei ( talk) 17:36, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
It seems like many languages have the interrogative mood. For example, isn´t this English sentence in the interrogative mood?
I'm asking earnestly because I don't have the expertise to say. But seeing the table limited to Welsh and Nenets makes me think that this is a relatively uncommon mood, like the eventive mood and Finnish. It makes me doubt that I know what the interrogative mood is. I'm all for highlighting some languages with less speakers, but couldn't this row have a few more example languages (or even Language families)? GottaBeAName ( talk) 16:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
toy otishal= toi otişăl Athanasius V ( talk) 10:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)