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![]() | Azerbaijanis in Tehran was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 14 July 2013 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Iranian Azerbaijanis. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This once again. This doesn't makes sense. First dna research says Iranian Azerbaijanis are more related to the people of Georgia, than they are to other Iranians
then it talks about Turkification and "massive migration of Oghuz Turks" etc. @
Golden: do you have comments?
Beshogur (
talk)
15:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
a Turkic ethnic group living mainly in northwestern Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan, while this article states that they
are a Turkic-speaking people of Iranian origin.These statements contradict each other. Either this kind of simplification should not be included in the first paragraph of the lead, or it should be consistent with the main 'Azerbaijanis' article. — Golden call me maybe? 15:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
carry a mixed heritage of Caucasian, Turkic, and Iranian elementsis problematic as well, it's synth. The problem here is, northern Azerbaijanis are Turkic (or partially) and southern are Iranian (fully Turkified), while those sources are combined with eachother. Beshogur ( talk) 15:45, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
You are taking a sentence from the article about Azerbaijanis out of its contextdo you mean "massive migration of Oghuz Turks"? I don't think this is about Republic of Azerbaijan. It's talking about Iranian Azerbaijan.
Sounds quite clear that Iranian Azerbaijanis' origins are localclear where? So if 67% of their origins are locals, this makes them "Turkic-speaking people of Iranian origin"? Also mitochondrial DNA doesn't mean anything. It's thousands year old dna from your mother's mother's (100x). Beshogur ( talk) 16:15, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
we go by what the reliable sources saynah, I can't accept this synth.
from the 13th century onwards they 'Turkised' the Iranian populations of Azerbaijan (who spoke west Iranian languages such as Tat, which is still found in residual forms), thus creating a new identity based on Shiism and the use of Turkish. These are the people today known as AzerisWhich indicated both Turkic and Iranian elements.
The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers, several pockets of whom still exist in the region. A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatoliasays exact thing as source 19.
I advice to read the whole texts. Frye: A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatolia
and The mass of the Oghuz Turkic tribes who crossed the Amu Darya towards the west left the Iranian plateau, which remained Persian, and established themselves more to the west, in Anatolia. Here they divided into Ottomans, who were Sunni and settled, and Turkmens, who were nomads and in part Shiite (or, rather, Alevi). The latter was to keep the name "Turkmen" for a long time: from the thirteenth century onwards they
. You clearly ignore these. So they Turkified and suddenly vaporized? Do you understand this from this sentence? And yes it is. Those 4 sources are combined and made up sentence was placed before them.
Beshogur (
talk)
17:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Interestingly, the ancestry pattern found in Indo-Iranian speakers from Central Asia is not found in other Indo-Iranian speaking populations, namely, the Iranians Persians69. This ethnic group displays a genetic continuity since the Bronze Age with ancient individuals from Iran, with limited gene flow from the steppes (either Central or Eastern)69. Just some empathy. Beshogur ( talk) 18:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
If you guys agree, we can change the lead and say that they are mainly of Iranian descent, which is exactly what the sources say. I "mainly" agree, but there might be some more changes. Need a bit time. Aintabli ( talk) 18:28, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatoliathat comes afterward. Mainly doesn't mean all. Beshogur ( talk) 18:37, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
An ethnicity or ethnic group is a grouping of people who identify with each other based on shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups.It's clear that these people identify themselves as Turks and their language as Turki. Thus, they identify with their Turkic elements. Calling them Turkic doesn't mean they have 100% pure Turkic DNA and I doubt most readers would misunderstand that. — Golden call me maybe? 17:30, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers, several pockets of whom still exist in the region. A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatolia. The Azeri Turks are Shiʿites and were founders of the Safavid dynasty. They are settled, although there are pastoralists in the Moḡān steppe called Ilsevan (formerly Šāhsevan) numbering perhaps 100,000; they, as other tribes in Iran, were forced to adopt a settled life under Reza Shah. Other Turkic speakers—Turkmen, Qajars, Afšārs, etc.—are scattered in various regions of western Iran. The number of Turkic speakers in Iran today is estimated about 16 million. Most of the Azerbaijanis call themselves and are referred to as Turks but also insist on their Iranian identity, buttressed not only by the religious bond—being mostly Shiʿite in contrast to the Sunni Turks of Anatolia—but also by cultural, historical, and economic factors
, i.e. the Azerbaijanis are not a mainstream Turkic groupwho says that? They are, like any other Turkic speaking people.
they celebrate Nowruzand? Kazakhs do celebrate it too.
Persian as their second languageis it because they are currently living in Iran? Why don't northern Azerbaijanis don't speak Persian anymore? So with this view, Turkish Kurds are half Turks as well?
fully Turkifieddidn't knew there was a half Turkification. And "Iranian identity" is a vague word. Most likely they meant Iran itself. Qashqai or other Turkic peoples of Iran have an Iranian identity as well, meaning they're part of Iran, which is not an ethnostate. Beshogur ( talk) 18:50, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
You know for sure that Persian in this context mean Iranian, which means more in a geographical sense like Ajem Turkic, which means Persian/Iranian Turkic, not because Persians spoke them, but it was a variety spoken mainly in Iran. And you know that old name of Iran was Persia, thus citizens of Persia were all Persians. Beshogur ( talk) 08:09, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
I want to point out that how is Yunusbayev's research relevant to this? He doesn't even mention such thing. Only thing about Iranian Azerbaijanis is: Indeed, Turkic peoples closer to the SSM area (those from the Volga-Ural region and Central Asia) showed younger dates compared to more distant populations like Anatolian Turks, Iranian Azeris, and the North Caucasus Balkars.
(SSM: South Siberia and Mongolia for clarification).
Also changing it to mainly isn't ok for me, as this is synth. Similarly, carry a mixed heritage of Caucasian, Turkic, and Iranian elements
on
Azerbaijanis article.
Beshogur (
talk)
20:27, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
do not "overlap" hereYou may want to check the quote included in the reference (Yunusbayev) you have added, because it uses the term "share" which is close to "overlap". I'm not really concerned with the wording. Feel free to tweak as long as it doesn't simplify details and misrepresent the source. I also stand corrected that your second removal of the quote was unintended. Aintabli ( talk) 21:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Obviously, we all know why she is used as a "source" in this article. Also this Ray guy? He has no idea what he is talking about, Iranian Azerbaijanis never refer themselves as Azeris. They refer themselves as turks. Blaxoul ( talk) 00:49, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
Azerbaijanian people population in Iran 2022:
.Iranian-Azeri Provance (States) in Iran population:
1.East Azerbaijan: 4.1 million population
(3.8 milion Azeri / 300,000 Persian,Armenian,Georgian,...)
2.West Azerbaijan: 3.8 milion population
(2.1 milion Kurd / 1.4 milion Azeri / 300,000 Armenian,Aramic,...)
3.Hamadan: 1.9 milion population
(800,000 Kurd / 700,000 Azeri /400,000 Persian )
4.Zanjan: 1.2 milion population
(1 milion Azeri / 200,000 Tati,Persian,Others)
5. Ardabil: 1.2 milion population
(900,000 Azeri / Talyshi,Tati 300,000)
.Total population of Irani-Azeri people: 7.8 milion
1.East Azerbaijan: 3.8 milion
2.West Azerbaijan: 1.4 milion
3.Zanjan: 1 milion
4.Ardabil: 900,000
5.Hamadan:700,000 89.32.109.99 ( talk) 03:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Since Iranian Azeris are the second largest ethnic group in Iran, I believe we should add the Iranian peoples template to this article. @ Aintabli:: any comment? Xyzrt ( talk) 21:18, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
They refer to themselves as just "Turks", you can not call them by derogatory names such as Persian Turks etc. They have a strong national identity, they do not identify themselves with the Persians or Iranians. Please make the necessary edits. Blaxoul ( talk) 16:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Iranian Azerbaijanis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4Auto-archiving period: 60 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Azerbaijanis in Tehran was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 14 July 2013 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Iranian Azerbaijanis. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This once again. This doesn't makes sense. First dna research says Iranian Azerbaijanis are more related to the people of Georgia, than they are to other Iranians
then it talks about Turkification and "massive migration of Oghuz Turks" etc. @
Golden: do you have comments?
Beshogur (
talk)
15:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
a Turkic ethnic group living mainly in northwestern Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan, while this article states that they
are a Turkic-speaking people of Iranian origin.These statements contradict each other. Either this kind of simplification should not be included in the first paragraph of the lead, or it should be consistent with the main 'Azerbaijanis' article. — Golden call me maybe? 15:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
carry a mixed heritage of Caucasian, Turkic, and Iranian elementsis problematic as well, it's synth. The problem here is, northern Azerbaijanis are Turkic (or partially) and southern are Iranian (fully Turkified), while those sources are combined with eachother. Beshogur ( talk) 15:45, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
You are taking a sentence from the article about Azerbaijanis out of its contextdo you mean "massive migration of Oghuz Turks"? I don't think this is about Republic of Azerbaijan. It's talking about Iranian Azerbaijan.
Sounds quite clear that Iranian Azerbaijanis' origins are localclear where? So if 67% of their origins are locals, this makes them "Turkic-speaking people of Iranian origin"? Also mitochondrial DNA doesn't mean anything. It's thousands year old dna from your mother's mother's (100x). Beshogur ( talk) 16:15, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
we go by what the reliable sources saynah, I can't accept this synth.
from the 13th century onwards they 'Turkised' the Iranian populations of Azerbaijan (who spoke west Iranian languages such as Tat, which is still found in residual forms), thus creating a new identity based on Shiism and the use of Turkish. These are the people today known as AzerisWhich indicated both Turkic and Iranian elements.
The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers, several pockets of whom still exist in the region. A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatoliasays exact thing as source 19.
I advice to read the whole texts. Frye: A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatolia
and The mass of the Oghuz Turkic tribes who crossed the Amu Darya towards the west left the Iranian plateau, which remained Persian, and established themselves more to the west, in Anatolia. Here they divided into Ottomans, who were Sunni and settled, and Turkmens, who were nomads and in part Shiite (or, rather, Alevi). The latter was to keep the name "Turkmen" for a long time: from the thirteenth century onwards they
. You clearly ignore these. So they Turkified and suddenly vaporized? Do you understand this from this sentence? And yes it is. Those 4 sources are combined and made up sentence was placed before them.
Beshogur (
talk)
17:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Interestingly, the ancestry pattern found in Indo-Iranian speakers from Central Asia is not found in other Indo-Iranian speaking populations, namely, the Iranians Persians69. This ethnic group displays a genetic continuity since the Bronze Age with ancient individuals from Iran, with limited gene flow from the steppes (either Central or Eastern)69. Just some empathy. Beshogur ( talk) 18:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
If you guys agree, we can change the lead and say that they are mainly of Iranian descent, which is exactly what the sources say. I "mainly" agree, but there might be some more changes. Need a bit time. Aintabli ( talk) 18:28, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatoliathat comes afterward. Mainly doesn't mean all. Beshogur ( talk) 18:37, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
An ethnicity or ethnic group is a grouping of people who identify with each other based on shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups.It's clear that these people identify themselves as Turks and their language as Turki. Thus, they identify with their Turkic elements. Calling them Turkic doesn't mean they have 100% pure Turkic DNA and I doubt most readers would misunderstand that. — Golden call me maybe? 17:30, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers, several pockets of whom still exist in the region. A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatolia. The Azeri Turks are Shiʿites and were founders of the Safavid dynasty. They are settled, although there are pastoralists in the Moḡān steppe called Ilsevan (formerly Šāhsevan) numbering perhaps 100,000; they, as other tribes in Iran, were forced to adopt a settled life under Reza Shah. Other Turkic speakers—Turkmen, Qajars, Afšārs, etc.—are scattered in various regions of western Iran. The number of Turkic speakers in Iran today is estimated about 16 million. Most of the Azerbaijanis call themselves and are referred to as Turks but also insist on their Iranian identity, buttressed not only by the religious bond—being mostly Shiʿite in contrast to the Sunni Turks of Anatolia—but also by cultural, historical, and economic factors
, i.e. the Azerbaijanis are not a mainstream Turkic groupwho says that? They are, like any other Turkic speaking people.
they celebrate Nowruzand? Kazakhs do celebrate it too.
Persian as their second languageis it because they are currently living in Iran? Why don't northern Azerbaijanis don't speak Persian anymore? So with this view, Turkish Kurds are half Turks as well?
fully Turkifieddidn't knew there was a half Turkification. And "Iranian identity" is a vague word. Most likely they meant Iran itself. Qashqai or other Turkic peoples of Iran have an Iranian identity as well, meaning they're part of Iran, which is not an ethnostate. Beshogur ( talk) 18:50, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
You know for sure that Persian in this context mean Iranian, which means more in a geographical sense like Ajem Turkic, which means Persian/Iranian Turkic, not because Persians spoke them, but it was a variety spoken mainly in Iran. And you know that old name of Iran was Persia, thus citizens of Persia were all Persians. Beshogur ( talk) 08:09, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
I want to point out that how is Yunusbayev's research relevant to this? He doesn't even mention such thing. Only thing about Iranian Azerbaijanis is: Indeed, Turkic peoples closer to the SSM area (those from the Volga-Ural region and Central Asia) showed younger dates compared to more distant populations like Anatolian Turks, Iranian Azeris, and the North Caucasus Balkars.
(SSM: South Siberia and Mongolia for clarification).
Also changing it to mainly isn't ok for me, as this is synth. Similarly, carry a mixed heritage of Caucasian, Turkic, and Iranian elements
on
Azerbaijanis article.
Beshogur (
talk)
20:27, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
do not "overlap" hereYou may want to check the quote included in the reference (Yunusbayev) you have added, because it uses the term "share" which is close to "overlap". I'm not really concerned with the wording. Feel free to tweak as long as it doesn't simplify details and misrepresent the source. I also stand corrected that your second removal of the quote was unintended. Aintabli ( talk) 21:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Obviously, we all know why she is used as a "source" in this article. Also this Ray guy? He has no idea what he is talking about, Iranian Azerbaijanis never refer themselves as Azeris. They refer themselves as turks. Blaxoul ( talk) 00:49, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
Azerbaijanian people population in Iran 2022:
.Iranian-Azeri Provance (States) in Iran population:
1.East Azerbaijan: 4.1 million population
(3.8 milion Azeri / 300,000 Persian,Armenian,Georgian,...)
2.West Azerbaijan: 3.8 milion population
(2.1 milion Kurd / 1.4 milion Azeri / 300,000 Armenian,Aramic,...)
3.Hamadan: 1.9 milion population
(800,000 Kurd / 700,000 Azeri /400,000 Persian )
4.Zanjan: 1.2 milion population
(1 milion Azeri / 200,000 Tati,Persian,Others)
5. Ardabil: 1.2 milion population
(900,000 Azeri / Talyshi,Tati 300,000)
.Total population of Irani-Azeri people: 7.8 milion
1.East Azerbaijan: 3.8 milion
2.West Azerbaijan: 1.4 milion
3.Zanjan: 1 milion
4.Ardabil: 900,000
5.Hamadan:700,000 89.32.109.99 ( talk) 03:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
Since Iranian Azeris are the second largest ethnic group in Iran, I believe we should add the Iranian peoples template to this article. @ Aintabli:: any comment? Xyzrt ( talk) 21:18, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
They refer to themselves as just "Turks", you can not call them by derogatory names such as Persian Turks etc. They have a strong national identity, they do not identify themselves with the Persians or Iranians. Please make the necessary edits. Blaxoul ( talk) 16:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)