![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
NASA stated during the most recent shuttle mission STS-134 that the assembly of the ISS was completed with the last shuttle EVA and the final EVA by shuttle astronauts? — Rsteilberg talk 03:44, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Of the United States portion.-- Craigboy ( talk) 04:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
When checking the links for "The station is expected to remain in operation until at least 2015, and likely 2020.[8][9]" which don't reflect the new date of 2028 which was mentioned in tokyo, one of those links mentions the "The Augustine Committee (in 2010?) estimated that the heavy lift rocket for getting to the moon would not be available until 2028 or 2030, and even then they found “there are insufficient funds to develop the lunar lander and lunar surface systems until well into the 2030s, if ever." That seems to indicate that the changing plans NASA has are winding back further. Is there any up to date link that show the progress of a moon or mars manned mission?, what I mean is, I know a lot of people who have plans to goto the moon and mars, but they have no budget and no spaceships. Is there a link to information about the work being done to get astronauts to Mars or the Moon ? that would be a good link to include to show they still are working on it in 2011 Penyulap talk 19:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Though mostly likely not on purpose someone has made the intro a mess (space station paragraph is fine though). The article doesn't need to list each agency's mission statement's in the opening paragraph. ISS's location is listed on NASA's website, you don't need Heavens-Above. ISS is not expected to be remain operational all the way to 2028 (the used sources state this). Criticism shouldn't be listed in opening paragraph.-- Craigboy ( talk) 21:14, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment I also take issue with Penyulap's rewrite of the lead section, and have rolled it back while discussion continues. The efforts are certainly appreciated, but there are a number of issues with the revised version and it is clear to me that the older version is stronger at present. As this is a featured article, it is important to maintain stability and as such I ask Penyulap to avoid simply restoring a personal version into the article until it can be resolved here. -- Ckatz chat spy 18:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
'As of the conclusion of Expedition 15, 138 major science investigations had been conducted on the ISS. Scientific findings, in fields from basic science to exploration research, are published every month.[15]'
Wow, that is so old, it's like expedition 27 already. Looking at that I'm like, it has so got to DIE, any objections ? it's main contribution to the article when you read the context is just useless busywork that nobody wants to do, so wiping it out has my vote. Anyone want to adopt it ? No ? -and keep the link by moving it somewhere else.. Penyulap talk 21:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
'(It's an international project - such a nationalistic cold-war-ish statement should not be in the opening paragraph.)'
'(Removed the Russian lead in paragraph. Its an international program, Russia should not be the focus.)'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43216921/ns/technology_and_science-space/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20110527/sc_space/astronautscompletespacestationin4thfinalspacewalk
That's Yahoo and MSNBC spreading LIES about the ISS, and what army do we have fighting for neutrality ? Ever heard of friendly fire ? were not any cohesive force, were a mess.
1 The International Space Station (ISS) is a manned,
artificial satellite is an internationally developed research facility being constructed in
low Earth orbit.
'Anthropology professor Lawrence Hirschfeld gives an example of what constitutes the essence of a tiger, regardless of whether it is striped or albino, or has lost a leg. The essential properties of a tiger are those without which it is no longer a tiger. Other properties, such as stripes or number of legs, are considered inessential or 'accidental'.
2 The ISS is an international effort with 5 partners, who all carry out scientific research on-board the ISS in diverse fields. See Scientific research on the ISS. [1]
3 Current objectives vary, (space agencies in alphabetical order)
4 The ISS is a synthesis of several space station projects that include the American Freedom, the European Columbus, the Japanese Kibō and the Russian / Soviet space station program, which has maintained an average of at least one space station on orbit since 1971 see space stations. [9] [10] Budget constraints led to the merger of these projects into a single multi-national programme. [9]
5 The ISS follows the Salyut, Almaz, Cosmos, Skylab, and MIR space stations, as the 11th space station successfully launched into orbit by humanity. Space stations such as Genesis I and II are not intended to be inhabited by humans. [11] On-orbit construction of the station began in 1998 and is scheduled for completion by mid-2012.
6 The station is expected to remain in operation until at least 2020, and potentially to 2028. [12] [13]
7 Like many artificial satellites, the ISS can be seen from Earth with the naked eye.7A Websites such as Heavens-Above provide instructions. 7 It is especially easy because of the ISS's Apparent magnitude. After the Sun, Magnitude -27 and Moon -13, the ISS -6 is the brightest object in the sky, ahead of Venus -5, Jupiter -3 and Mars -3. This excludes short-lived phenomenon such as Bolides and Iridium flares.
8 The station is divided into two main sections, the Russian Orbital Section (ROS) and the United States on-Orbit Segment (USOS). The ROS handles Guidance, Navigation & Control for the entire Station, [14] primary propulsion and primary life support. The USOS contains the largest laboratory, JAXA's Kibo, NASA's Destiny lab, ESA's Columbus lab and 2,500 Sq meters of solar panels to power them, along with additional life support (Oxygen generators) and a second toilet. The station is maintained at an orbit between 278 km (173 mi) and 460 km (286 mi) altitude, and travels at an average speed of 27,743.8 km/h (17,239.2 mph), completing 15.7 orbits per day. [15]
9 The ISS can maintain orbit and perform maneuvers autonomously. Expedition crews, from safe minimum of two, to seven upon completion, have so far maintained an uninterrupted human presence in orbit since the launch of Expedition 1 on 31 October 2000, a total of 23 years and 257 days. The programme thus holds the current record for the longest uninterrupted human presence in space, surpassing the previous record of ten years, set aboard Mir (3,644 days). [16] The station is serviced by Soyuz spacecraft, Progress spacecraft, Space Shuttle, the Automated Transfer Vehicle and the H-II Transfer Vehicle, [17] and has been visited by astronauts and cosmonauts from 15 different nations. [18] As of March 2011 [update], the station consists of fifteen pressurised modules and an extensive integrated truss structure (ITS). The ownership and use of the space station is established in intergovernmental treaties and agreements [19] that allow the Russian Federation to retain full ownership of its own modules in the Russian Orbital Segment, [20] with the US Orbital Segment, the remainder of the station, allocated between the other international partners. [19]
Like/dislike yes/no please feel free to comment...? Penyulap talk 21:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd also like to change the date information from 23 years and 257 days to I think an easier format 23 years, 8 months and 14 days. At this point, I'd like to see all changes above except 1 and 7A implemented. However I'm not touching the opening paragraph at the moment even for the most basic reasons, like 'completed' I'll leave it all to someone else, or until the articles major contributor colds7ream returns from RL to offer his opinion. Penyulap talk 08:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
The Lead has been updated to a draft-level version of the above, and I'm fixing up refs before moving on to polishing up the lead. The following issues have been addressed ..
In regards to overall consistency with the remainder of the article, it is not as large a problem as it was when the discussion opened. The parts of the new lead I have authored are consistent in style and prose with other additions to the article that I have also authored. The article has had some additions to it, which I have authored, since the time the discussion first opened. The overall consistency of the proposed lead in regards to the remainder of the article has therefore changed slightly. I would therefore suggest the problem of consistency is slightly smaller. I would be pleased and welcome any suggestions about any particular sentences, I would welcome even more if people simply go ahead and edit it themselves in a constructive manner, that is, making specific changes to anything they feel needs fixing, rather than reverting large portions of the article, containing material which they have no problem with.
In regards to poor grammar, punctuation or spelling I will not address such concerns myself, I ask for help in this regard. However, to preempt any suggestion that the new lead should be overturned for this reason, I would like to point out that spelling grammar and punctuation are not a legitimate reason to revert material, further, if there is any such rule, I will ignore it under WP:IAR guidelines. Penyulap talk 02:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest to anyone who thinks Canada is not a good place to start with the list of partners, or wants NASA to be more prominent, they could rearrange the list using country names, instead of partner names, and it would still have all 5 partners listed in a neutral manner. Penyulap talk 02:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Please be aware that the category cleanup may cause problems with other articles that link into the ISS page, I'm going to do a safari to find those and fix them, if your aware of any problems please let me know so I can fix them, or feel free to edit them, or change that category back...
If possible I'd like to simplify the last one to
But that's not to suggest any changes to any editors policy on how they edit their section, it's just a suggestion relating to the title, that's all.
However I'll wait a few days at least before making such a minor change to such frequently edited sections, enquire if it will be a nuisance to those editors who maintain the page.
Any comments or concerns?, is anything else out of place? Penyulap talk 15:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
actually I just wp:bb because with 2011 in the text, it can't be linked to very well.. Penyulap talk 00:32, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Whilst on the subject of sightings RadioFan, the part you edited in the sightings section "The ISS orbits at an inclination of 51.6 degrees to Earth's equator, necessary to ensure that Russian Soyuz spacecraft launched the the Baikonur Cosmodrome are capable of reaching the station.[132] While this orbit makes the station visible from most points on Earth, it is not visible from extreme northern or southern latitudes." I object to, as it implies that the Russian Soyuz is not capable of reaching the station in other orbits, which is not correct. It's a very flexible craft with a relatively high flight ceiling and can reach the harder-to-get-to orbit of 71 which is proposed for opsek. I can't agree with the use of 'capable', or 'necessary to ensure' without additional refs that support that. 'capable' is not the word the space elevator bloke used, I read some of his book (incidentally I think he missed out some interesting things, he should have outlined how tethers can interact with the magnetosphere to provide spacecraft propulsion for satellites, and emphasized that tethers are going to be more successful in use around the moon, because it has almost no debris, but he was being brief and non-technical). I do want to support you if you can write up how the orbit effects launches from all the launch sites, such as french guiana and japan as well as russia and america. Basically, the higher the inclination or payload the more fuel is needed (or less payload) thats why reboosting the station is delayed for weeks until just after a shuttle mission, it's to let the ISS drop low and let the shuttle carry more cargo. The ATV and HTV are heavy vehicles like the shuttle, but the soyuz is the lightest, 'it's not a truck' as the astronaut on his way up said the other day on tv. It has only one purpose, to carry people. Actually the crew seemed really overwhelmed when they spoke of it, saying how 'this craft' had only a single purpose, it was built 'for us' or did he say 'for me' ? well, anyhow he seemed to be having a religious experience about it being tailored especially to him, which it is. Anyhow, point is, it's the lightest of all manned spacecraft in use and has the greatest operational ceiling. The extra fuel it doesn't use flows back and forth into the space station automatically through the russian docking ports, the station is like a petrol station for the spacecraft, so extra fuel is offloaded into zaryas fuel tanks. Penyulap talk 21:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The article suggests that it is invisible in the shadow, but this isn't true. I've seen it on numerous occasions with binoculars, and I would estimate the brighness to be about +7 or +8 when overhead, deep into the shadow. Now, there aren't many reports of such observations, so it is not easy to find appropriate sources for this.
What is clear is that it is very plausible that the ISS is visible in binoculars, as you can easily calculate that just few tens of Watts of the interior lighting escaping is enough to make it bright enough to be visible in binos. I'm not suggesting we include this in Wikipedia right now, it's just an interesting thing to look into. Count Iblis ( talk) 02:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
(inserted note) The Magnitude of the ISS is sourced from the apparent magnitude article. It's currently stated at -5.9 and is rounded off to -6 occasionally in this article. The following long conversation was created mostly because of my poor memory, I apologize to all involved, and for the clutter I created. I simply couldn't recall where I got the final figure from after researching and writing. Penyulap talk 00:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Please edit directly under this text to add your support or objection to the use of figures from the magnitude page. I abstain. Penyulap talk 23:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
There are better references pending on Magnitude, it will be updated onto the Magnitude page as well if it all checks out, but it will effect the wording in comparison to Venus, and may well see some more temporary additions to the 'media' section. I hope CountIblis will clarify all this. Penyulap talk 07:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Click here to skip to the next section, Inclination
Count Iblis, please use the talkpage rather than the edit summary to express the reasons why you have changed Radiofan's editing of my text about magnitude.
I support Radiofans alteration of my text on the whole, except for the use of the word 'rivaled' (the ISS is not trying to, or designed to compete with the sun or moon) other satellites have used reflective surfaces to light up some northern hemisphere towns i recall, or have been proposed with a few tests.
Also 'with a maximum apparent magnitude when directly overhead of -3.8, slightly less bright than Venus.' may only be correct for your viewing position, but I can't help you further as you have not included a reference, which is necessary. Also 'less bright' I think could be improved upon.
I'd support the use of 'approximate magnitude of ' or 'approximate apparent magnitude' if that helps reach consensus.
Penyulap talk 19:37, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Count Iblis ( talk) 19:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
And those edits have been reverted. There is no consensus here that the -6 figure (now more accurately stated as -5.9) is problematic. Reliable sources for this information have been supplied if you have similarly reliable sources refuting it, then please share them here. Until then, please stop removing this section.-- RadioFan ( talk) 23:47, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Penyulap talk 23:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message802635/pg1 this one is a good link to an article that may be able to be found in an archive somewhere? like the internet archive maybe ? suggests -8
http://kendalastronomer.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/a-bit-of-satellite-watching/ no good http://www.disclose.tv/forum/nearby-asteroid-found-orbiting-sun-backwards-t3858.html -8, not bad. http://www.space.com/6870-spot-satellites.html pointing at -8
as you see, there is lots of work to do, but I was aiming at a conservative figure of -6 as a 'current' and reasonable maximum someone could be reasonably expected to observe, whereas some people are luckier being closer to the ground tracks, you should read up on the ground tracks of the iridium satellites, they are easier to predict. The solar panels on the station aren't rotated like clockwork, and they aren't all needed to operate at the same time as they don't always have load for them, because there aren't so many experiments going on. The reason the Russians haven't launched their science power platforms is there is just too much cheap electricity coming from the USOS's panels.... Penyulap talk 00:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes yes, I agree they all FAIL wprs, I'm giving them as a place for you guys to start research, if I could find the original one I used for the -6 I'd just mention it, actually, what kind of an idiot am I? we should just go back and check it, it's got to be in there before colds7ream rolled back the article, maybe it's good, maybe it's a fail too. Either way, the pages will help give everyone a better idea of what this whole magnitude thing is about, it's a measured thing, from the ground, by astronomers, not something dictated by NASA or Chris Peat, it's not their department. It's astronomy, or at least I'm sure it is, I asked the question on astronomy and astrophotography pages, as it's not mentioned on either of those pages yet, so hopefully I can get astronomy experts to tell me if satellite viewing is or is not astronomy, and who knows, maybe give me a definitive answer as to who determines magnitude, and how, and help phrasing it correctly. If there can't be consensus on magnitude thats ok to, because we don't need to find any particular figure, we just say 'the magnitude of the station is determined by astronomers, this observatory[1] reports it can be been as high as X' or 'the exact magnitude of the station varies, some report it as high as' and just go with good, well referenced observatories... something like that. like i mentioned before mass and magnitude cannot be calculated, they can only be measured. Penyulap talk 00:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Can I suggest Like many artificial satellites, the ISS can be seen from Earth with the naked eye. After the Sun and Moon the ISS is the brightest object in the sky Because both the moon, which wanes into a new moon, and the sun which sets, like the ISS can be variable, the ISS can be considered along those same lines, as the brightest object in the sky, sometimes, and we don't need to qualify it as sometimes, because the moon and sun don't need qualification either. Actually, it seems to be in there that way at the moment too... I just copied it. But thats the lead suggestion, and it should be explained in the sightings section more fully Penyulap talk 00:49, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Here is a suggestion for the Form of the sightings section, please consider it separate to the -6/-4 stuff, just the context.
It is especially easy to see the ISS without the use of equipment because of it's Apparent magnitude. After the Sun, Magnitude -27 and Moon -13, the ISS -X is the brightest object in the sky, ahead of Venus -5, Jupiter -3 and Mars -3. This excludes short-lived phenomenon such as Bolides and Iridium flares. [21]
Any good? we can of course make the figures exact, but for form is there consensus ? X is a figure we can determine separately Penyulap talk
as a short way to say it ?
And guys, don't worry about the article, Count Iblis is wanting to help, not adding profanity and such to the talkpage, and Count, just discuss and edit here, until everyone agrees first, then the article can be changed. Otherwise it's problematic for readers if we use the article as a sketchpad. Lets please continue
Penyulap
talk
01:37, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Basically the ISS is brighter, but like the moon, venus, and the sun, it does not reach it's maximum magnitude all the time as viewed from the observers location. But it is fundamentally the brightest object in the sky, second to the moon and sun, on a regular basis, excluding short-lived phenomenon such as iridium flares and bolides.? Penyulap talk 01:43, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
The apparent magnitude (m) of a celestial body is a measure of its brightness as seen by an observer on Earth, normalized to the value it would have in the absence of the atmosphere. The brighter the object appears, the lower the value of its magnitude. from the article Penyulap talk 01:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh for crying out loud that is where I got the original figure from. the magnitude article. that's where it is, case closed on the figure for magnitude, i was correct at the beginning, and it's their headache not ours ! Sorry for the trouble my poor memory has given you guys... Penyulap talk 01:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Just to let everyone know my exams this year are this week, so I'll be back editing properly soon! :-) Colds7ream ( talk) 11:38, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I want to undo the redo of the old lead. I'm sorry Colds7ream, I have the deepest respect for your monumental past efforts but there many problems with the revert.
'take a deep breath, and count to ten.' -Directly from the wiki guidelines for exactly this situation
I spent a lot of time looking for the guidelines that say exactly this, to demonstrate moving on is not my idea, it's wiki ideal. Thats when I found the link above. I didn't find the part about moving on after FA in the guidelines anywhere, you know why ? after searching for ages to show you, I found it is at the top of this page.
Seriously if your just going to come back once a week or once a fortnight to go on living in the past and drag everyone else with you, without even reading what you are putting up there, then I can't be bothered updating the lead either, it's in the same crappy situation it is with MrClick who wouldn't articulate on the talkpage to save his life. Penyulap talk 15:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and by the way, as I have been doing constant and consistent research into all aspects of the ISS over the last few months, which everyone can see, as I have been adding the latest information and updating existing information across all subjects, and in depth spending countless hours and soliciting new material for release into the public domain from many sources including JAXA, I can justifiably say as an expert on all the latest ISS matters in diverse fields, the lead is crap. That is my opinion. If you'd like to know why, or what is wrong with the lead, I've already done your homework for you while you were away and It's written above on the talkpage, or some of it is. Penyulap talk 15:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Where are my manners, I forgot to wish you well in RL, I do look forward to working with you in future, when you decide to drop by again, and if you ever use the talkpage I'll be happy to work with you on improvements, if you ever think improvement is possible. In the mean time I won't bother making any updates to the lead no matter how justified they are, realizing they'll just be undone, whats the point? I'll just wait here and twiddle my thumbs and read a book. Penyulap talk 16:00, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Like many artificial satellites, the ISS can be seen from Earth with the naked eye. After the Sun and Moon the ISS is the brightest object in the sky.
Above is part of the previous content I wrote in a cleanup of the lead. I would like to ask Colds7ream, Craigboy, UK50, and John Darrow(john is the spelling/grammar ok?) Also TheAnarcat, Ckatz, Eregli bob, Mnw2000, other editors (sorry if I've left you out) and editors not logged in (I value your opinion as much as anyone's) reasons why this statement is more or less correct than the the text as restored by colds7ream.
With a greater mass than that of any previous space station, the ISS can be seen from the Earth with the naked eye, and, as of 2011[update], is the largest artificial satellite orbiting the Earth.
To avoid edit warring behavior, please explain reasons about the content rather than editors, except to differentiate between the two. Please state reasons here, not in the edit summary.
The Mass of the station in the infobox is outdated. Doesn't have the last module in it.
The form of stating the stations mass needs changing, it needs the word 'approximate' or something similar.
As opposed to the size and geometry of the complex, which can be calculated, Mass and Magnitude can only be measured or estimated. You can quote conflicting sources to the end of time and they'll all be estimates, for example the crew don't weigh the trash as it's loaded into the robots for de-orbit, they don't have time or reason to. Calculating the mass by the re-boost burns is easier, using the propellant expended and the change in orbit. The mass of the complex is in the infobox, but could be mentioned again elsewhere qualified as an estimate, or a comparison, not a specific weight presented as a fact.
'approx 415' or approx '450' (my guess) or 'estimated at 415 tons' or '415 not including crew, experiments, supplies or propellants' simplified into 'empty weight' this is better than calculations adding launch weights together without qualifying it.
The Nasa source is outdated, it's last year, there is another module, plus every time a progress robot arrives or leaves it's about 2 1/2 tons difference in payload alone. Then, should 'lifeboats' be included in station mass, or separate like visiting spacecraft ?
Is anyone having trouble understanding any of this ?
I'd like anyone's input for ideas to improve the structure of statements about mass. Penyulap talk 09:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I've split the Purpose section into Science and exploration subsections. The material looks very different from one section to the other, like, exploration seems to be all about mission statements and the like rather than science ... I guess there is no getting around it, obviously. It just looks weird to me, and the mention of china is freaking me out too. Anyhow please comment.
(existing lead-in) The ISS provides a location in the relative safety of Low Earth Orbit to test spacecraft systems that will be required for long-duration missions to the Moon and Mars. This provides experience in the maintenance, repair, and replacement of systems on-orbit, which will be essential in operating spacecraft further from Earth. Mission risks are reduced, and the capabilities of interplanetary spacecraft are advanced. [22]
ESA states 'Human exploration of our Solar System is an important focus for ESA... The ISS is essential for answering questions concerning the possible impact of weightlessness, radiation and other space-specific factors, other aspects such as the effect of long-term isolation and confinement can be more appropriately addressed via ground-based simulations' [23].
NASA chief Charlie Bolden stated in Feb 2011 "Any mission to Mars is likely to be a global effort" [24]. Currently the space agencies of Europe, Russia and China are carrying out the ground-based preparations in the Mars500 project which complement the ISS-based preparations for a manned mission to Mars [25]. China is not an ISS Partner, and no chinese national has been aboard. China has it's own Space station [26], due for launch in 2011, and has officially initiated its program for a modular station [27]. China is willing to cooperate further with other countries on manned exploration [28]. Penyulap talk 21:19, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The passage starts with the Original purpose in relation to exploration, which is far outdated now, but is included as the starting point of the story. 'A long time ago...' it has to be left in the past tense, to avoid misunderstanding. It's not the current purpose of the station to act as a base for interplanetary manned missions and so forth. All plans for that I know of are beyond the (proposed 2028) end-of-mission date.
The story moves onto the current purpose in regards to exploration, and then in the last sentences, the future purpose or possibilities.
Please state support or concerns with this approach. Penyulap talk 08:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I wrote new material and arranged the purpose section and it's subsections here stating the essential aspects of the purpose (as best I could from my research).
From Essentialism 'Anthropology professor Lawrence Hirschfeld gives an example of what constitutes the essence of a tiger, regardless of whether it is striped or albino, or has lost a leg. The essential properties of a tiger are those without which it is no longer a tiger. Other properties, such as stripes or number of legs, are considered inessential or 'accidental'.
Why is the space station used for scientific research ? scientific research can easily be done on earth, can't it ?
The ISS is essential 'to conduct experiments that require one or more of the unusual conditions present on the station.' Then the purpose section has two subsections, which explain two of those conditions briefly. The subsections are Space environment and Microgravity.
The purpose section moves on to explain why the ISS is essential to exploration. It covers the original purpose which has evolved and changed with each new administration. Starting in the past with the original purpose, it is currently missing the present purpose (which needs insertion, it was disputed, removed, I haven't added new text there as yet) and goes on to the partners intentions (those which I have found so far). The section hasn't changed, and remains in the same place in purpose. The purpose section then moves on to education, covering the unique interaction the ISS has with classroom studies and astronomy studies, one section runs into the other, so students in the classroom can observe the ISS directly.
The purpose section finished with the cultural outreach section, not intended to be trivia, but to cover topics such as Arts in space, such as this which is not science or exploration or education. It would outline the use of the ISS to ease international (cold war style) tensions between nations, and possibly absorb items of importance that fit nowhere else, such as the ISS in movies and books, but thats beyond the scope of my enquiry, I'd leave it to others decide what goes in there besides art, and what doesn't.
Currently the sections are in disarray. I've asked the admin why they have been changed here on the 10th of June, but no reasons have been forthcoming from any editor as to why the categories are arranged in their current state. Astronomy is the study of celestial objects, so I'd suggest that it is more a part of education, rather than station structure, granted it is not the purpose of the ISS to be studied, but it helps the education section, which is teachers and students first port of call. Sightings of the station are almost always done from on earth not from the station structure. The station structure is not essential to sightings, many smaller satellites are observed from earth, even with the naked eye.
Microgravity is not part of station structure, the purpose of the structure is to study and take advantage of microgravity. But the station doesn't create artificial gravity, it's built in a place that takes advantage of it. There are reasons why it would go into the structure section, but it is required in the purpose section to explain the purpose.
Likewise, the space environment, not in it's current form, but in it's form here (same ref) is also required to explain purpose, it mentions the dangers of the space environment in passing because scientific studies performed on the ISS involve studies of it's effects on the health of space travelers. It also flows into the exploration section, which discusses the space environment and microgravity. In it's earlier form the safety aspects section covered issues relating solely to the crew onboard. Iss->Safety as in crew safety only. Penyulap talk 11:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Colds7ream, can I have your thoughts on this reasoning please ? Penyulap talk 23:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Here is some new text for the education section, I'm still waiting and working on JAXA for images to be released into the public domain, but I would like to see if there is support for mention of the EPO experiments. I don't know if it's good enough without pics. The proposed new text of the Education and cultural outreach section would look like this. Italics added for clarity.
Part of the crew's mission is educational outreach and international cooperation. The crew of the ISS provide opportunities for students on Earth by running student-developed experiments, making educational demonstrations, and allowing for student participation in classroom versions of ISS experiments, and directly engaging students using radio, videolink and email. The ISS program itself, with the international cooperation that it represents, allows more than 20 nations to live and work together in space, providing lessons for future multi-national missions.[refs]
Amateur Radio on the ISS (ARISS) is a volunteer program which inspires students worldwide, to pursue careers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics through amateur radio communications opportunities with the ISS crew. ARISS is an international working group, consisting of delegations from 9 countries including several countries in Europe as well as Japan, Russia, Canada, and the USA. The organization is run by volunteers from the national amateur radio organizations and the international AMSAT (Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation) organizations from each country.[refs]
JAXA also utilizes the Kibo laboratory for culture/humanities and social sciences. JAXA states that Looking into the Space environment and guiding the humankind to untold surprise or wonder, and broadening our wisdom is one of the goals of the International Space Station.[refs]
please edit below this text for support/objection to going with the above text, and working out pics here later on.
The verbatim phrase from JAXA is 'Looking into the Space environment and guiding the humankind to untold surprise or wonder, and broadening our wisdom are one of the goals of the International Space Station.' I changed the word 'are' to 'is' so I don't use quotation marks, or should it be put into quotation marks and left as it is? maybe with [sic] added ?
The photos in the public domain are no good at all, it's better for now I think to with just the text alone. I'm trying to get pictures like these Art 1 Art 2 art 3 in japanese, art 4and here is a 4.0 MB PDF, the marbling in space pic would be good I think. Any image I can get, I'd like to make it as small as is practical, about the size of the ones in the pressurized modules table. Personally I think art is less appealing to the western general public, however sections of all communities, and the Japanese, seem to me to take art and culture quite seriously, and so as one of the ongoing stated goals of the ISS, I think it rates at least a minor mention in this section. Penyulap talk 00:59, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone want to find out the cost of the ISS? the existing refs are incomplete and outdated at best. Possibly where accurate info for a particular partner can be found, it can be mentioned it's that partners cost... The ESA ref has nothing going for it, except being on the ESA page, it doesn't state anything of who did the estimate or how they arrived at the figures they did. Penyulap talk 00:15, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
What about something like this....
Country | Agency | Budget (USD) |
---|---|---|
![]() |
NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration) | $19,000 million [29] |
![]() |
ESA (European Space Agency) | $5,430 million (2011) [30] |
![]() |
ROSCOSMOS (Russian Federal Space Agency) | $3,800 million (2011) [31] |
![]() |
JAXA (Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency) | $2,460 million [32] |
![]() |
CSA (Canadian Space Agency) | $300 million [33] |
ISS partners | All space agencies annual budgets | approx $1.77 citation needed |
Penyulap talk 23:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
it has the total budgets for all agencies, I think with some asking about, we might get some help from the same people who made the original table I cut up from this page List of space agencies and maybe some brief little pie-charts like in the utilization section for USOS hardware allocation, to show modules/segments total by agency, rockets and/or payload kg's of supplies per agency, that sort of thing, to explain the contributions from different agencies. Penyulap talk 23:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to state that I support MLM42's removal of text relating to the 'most expensive object', but would reconsider if a reference can be found that has a well thought out estimated cost of the telephone. Two different refs is cool, like "the ISS is the most expensive object at X dollars [1] exceeding the Telephone which cost Y dollars [2]." I don't know either cost, but I bet the devil my head the telephone to date comes out on top. Penyulap talk 20:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Well this is a snapshot of the current state of the Costs section
Costs
The cost estimates for the ISS range from 35 billion to 160 billion dollars.[28] ESA, the one agency which actually presents potential overall costs, estimates €100 billion for the entire station over 30 years.[27] A precise cost estimate for the ISS is unclear, as it is difficult to determine which costs should be attributed to the ISS program, or how the Russian contribution should be measured.[28]
On March 14, 2000 President Bill Clinton signed the Iran Nonproliferation Act of 2000 (INA), which created a problem for NASA in its financial dealings with the Russian space agency. Section 6 of the Act "prohibits the U.S. Government from making payments in connection with the ISS to the Russian space agency, organizations or entities under its control, or any other element of the Russian government, after January 1, 1999, unless the President makes a determination that Russia's policy is to oppose proliferation to Iran, that Russia is demonstrating a sustained commitment to seek out and prevent the transfer of WMD (weapons of mass destruction) and missile systems to Iran, and that neither the Russian space agency nor any entity reporting to it has made such transfers for at least one year prior to such determination." [208] Section 6 incorporated a "crew safety exception" which was intended to prevent "imminent loss of life" and also allowed for payments involving Russia's Service Module and docking hardware that was already in process when the Act was being debated. At an October 12, 2000 House International Relations Committee hearing, NASA was criticized for its broad interpretation of the word “imminent” in the crew safety exception.[209] In 2006 Russia was no longer obligated to provide transportation of American astronauts aboard the Soyuz spacecraft without payment. With this deadline looming, in 2005 Congress amended the INA to exempt Soyuz flights from the Section 6 ban. The exemption was renewed in 2008 and is in effect through 2016. [210]
I think this is a poor excuse for us all not to do any work, the costs must be out there somewhere and I'd like everyone's, anyone's help in finding them. Iran stuff is politics that belongs elsewhere, it doesn't help anyone find out how much the space station costs. The first paragraph has useful information which will probably be superseded by up to date info in the new section. A draft of the new section will probably be more useful to people trying to get an idea of costs, so I'll go straight ahead with it, replacing what is there now. References will be missing for some of the information initially, because some of it is in foreign languages, and I'd love any help fixing refs anyone would like to give. Please don't give DEconstructive assistance (like deleting sections with click click click) please be constructive by finding one agency, any agency, and finding their costs. Penyulap talk 04:53, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Here is what I am adding now,
The cost estimates for the ISS range from 35 billion to 160 billion dollars. [34] ESA, estimates €100 billion for the entire station over 30 years. [35]
The NASA budget for 2007 estimates costs for the ISS (excluding shuttle costs) at $US25.6 billion for the years 1994 to 2005. NASA's annual contribution increase from 2010 to $US2.3 billion and is likely to remain at that level until 2017.
Based on costs incurred plus a projected $2.5 Billion per year from 2011-2017, NASA spending since 1993 not including shuttle spending comes to $US53 Billion. An additional 33 Shuttle assembly and supply flights equates to $35 Billion. With addition costs from development of the freedom station project precursor, NASA's contribution comes to approximately $US100 Billion.
ESA spending on a 30-year projected station lifespan is €8 billion. Consisting of Columbus development €1 Billion. ATV's First launch and development €1.35 Billion, subsequent launches €875 Million X 4 scheduled, Ariane-5 launch costs of €125 million each. ATV total costs €2.85 Billion.
JAXA Kibo $2.8 Billion, plus operating costs 350-400 Million annually. HTV development 68 billion yen, Plus HTV launch costs of about ¥ 250 billion.
Total costs for Kibo until 2010 ¥7,100 billion, consisting of development approximately ¥ 250 billion, Kibo laboratory equipment development cost about ¥450 billion, approximately ¥2,360 billion in costs and expenses of shuttle launches. Astronaut training, ground facilities, experiment-related expenses approximately 110 billion yen.
JAXA Annual costs since 2011 at about 400 billion yen, consisting of the operating costs (such as maintenance, astronaut training) about 90 billion yen, (experiment-related costs), about 40 billion yen, and HTV launches.
RSA costs are difficult to determine as substantial development costs of the Robotic Progress Cargoships, Manned/Robotic Soyuz Spacecraft, and Proton Rockets used for module launches, are spread across previous Soviet rocket programs. Cost of development for Module design such as DOS base blocks, life support, docking systems etc are spread across the budgets of the Salmat, Almaz, and MIR I and MIR II programs. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin stated in Jan 2011 that the government will spend 115 billion rubles ($3.8 bln) on national space programs in 2011, however this includes the entire space program which will launch a spacecraft on average once per week during 2011.
CSA spending over the last 20 years is estimated at $CA1.4 Billion. Including development of the Canadarm2 and SPDM.
It is rough, but please state if you support further editing and protection against widespread deletion, or object to it's inclusion and want it returned to the previous version. Please edit below this text to state support or objection. Penyulap talk 07:37, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
The section on Safety aspects has a lot of things that just don't relate to safety of the station at all, I'd like to cut a lot of the information that doesn't belong there. air leak and the venting of smoke from an Elektron oxygen generator stay, these are safety issues.
Some items are simple maintainence notes like solar array trouble, which has no effect upon life support, the big arrays basically run science experiments, which would have to shut down if the arrays don't work. The implications for heating the station are minor, considering modules that can't be used anyway because of long term power failure could be closed off..
Basically these items don't belong in safety, as they pose no threat whatsoever.
Those need research to see what is and isn't true as the original citation wouldn't have met Yahoo standards let alone Wiki standards... the corrosion is all correct, but whether it had implications is another thing, they have backups for ALL life support systems, full stop. It may have re-arranged the work schedule to bring redundant systems online and repair broken ones, but thats just work scheduling and maintainence.
The 2007 link about the solar array gives the reader an impression of danger regarding the solar array, which even the reporter admits could simply be jettisoned, and the items 'at risk' were things like assembly schedules and science capabilities. The crew member was in no danger as they'd taken appropriate measures for working on the live electrical cables, and were clearly satisfied it was a job worth doing, their mode of repair shows a well thought out plan. The reporter is just alarmist saying things like this "The spacewalk was considered particularly risky, with Parazynski venturing farther from the safety of the station than ever before. " and " just before the pair left the safety of the station's airlock. " http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/03/AR2007110300227.html
The stations engines are designed to be fired without killing the entire crew and destroying the station, but maybe I'll check on that eh? sheesh.
again, this doesn't address how it relates to station safety. Basically, power comes in through the solar arrays, when you add, say 50kw of electrical energy to anything inside a closed room, you get 50kw of heat energy coming out, the radiators carry away the heat from the modules, and dispel it into space as infrared radiation. So if your cooling system loses 30 percent of it's capacity, you switch off 30% of your electrical load. Or, simply switch off everything and the whole station will freeze.
So I propose deleting everything except the Fire and air leak, which are safety issues. The rest can be moved to the ISS Maintainence article, which as it's name suggests is an article so boring nobody has created it. Mir had safety issues, with the Robot spacecraft crashing into the station. That is probably a good read, but this is just making the article longer. Is there anything people think should be in there, or moved somewhere else ? Penyulap talk 22:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
The article called 'major incidents on the ISS' could be changed to ISS Maintainence if people wanted to do that. It would be a more appropriate title. Penyulap talk 08:34, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
(this section has been edited to remove jokes at the request of RadioFan, and a general cleanup too)
(inserted) Short answer, Sightings is a subsection of Education, which is a subsection of Purpose. That's where I put it, other people have messed with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Penyulap ( talk • contribs) 11:23, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
(cur | prev) 11:56, 10 June 2011 Colds7ream (talk | contribs) (169,856 bytes) (Move 'sightings' out of 'purpose' too. Which damnfool idiot decided that sighting the station is part of its purpose?! :-S) (undo)
That (editor) would be me ! Good to see you back from RL.
The new sections were arranged by me with Purpose being split into subsections according to importance and material expected for them. I have no idea where they are at now, for reasons mentioned on my userpage.
I had listed the subsections in descending order of importance to the partners, and how much material would be incorporated into each category...
or with Education and cultural outreach as one section.
other possibilities for the sightings category listed below don't really grab at it or demand it's inclusion
So I put it with Sightings as a subsection of education, as a natural follow-on to the sections original text, to assist Teachers to get the kids looking up.
I don't care where you put it, it simply seemed logical when I was cleaning up the index, removed '2011' from the docking schedule as it'd need changing often, and I can't see it as helpful towards the end of each year, so the old was just copied below the new, inside the section, killed 'impacts of the IRAN nuclear proliferation treaty blah blah blah' as something boring you put in a section rather than it's title, i think it's in costs now. simplified things like 'scheduled to be launched' into minimalist headers for simplicity.. basically like that. I'd started off new sections and organized new homes for new material I'd been adding, The pope and that witch martha steward, and U2, I like U2 and the pope is just a granddad type of old guy, but what I think is irrelevant, I put that new section and new material in there for the many people who are interested in that sort of thing, for those people who come here looking. I stopped work in the middle because of problems with another user. Anyhow, new junk like the ISS in movies and books and so forth didn't have a place or section before, and thats where I was going before I stopped. Then some other editors put up expansion notes or something, which is pretty right really, I stopped mid-sentence really, and they'd found new things i think...
Anyhow, I'm quite happy to take colorful language from you as the person who cares most about this page, and anyone else who has made more contributions than I have. please feel free to switch on your skype and use even more colorful language too ! I invite you !
Penyulap talk 13:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
also, whilst I'm not going to change it myself, I'd like to point out that the 'exploration' subsection I made is like, an 'exploration of space' or 'exploration of other worlds' sort of thing, and education is a separate part of overall purpose to that, not really a part of exploration, just my thoughts. Penyulap talk 13:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Penyulap talk 14:10, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Colds7ream, why have you put sightings into station structure ? what is your thinking there, I can't see the logic for it. Certainly everything is related to station structure in some way, and for utilization and politics, it's all related to station structure, utilization is, in a big way, but the connection between station structure and sightings is much more remote. I can't see the connection there. Sightings are almost invariably done from the surface of the Earth, some from aircraft or spacecraft, but most of them, the majority, are done from outside the stations structure and far away. The stations structure has no special connection to the ability to see it, other satellites, many hundreds can be seen from the ground also. About 1 every ten or fifteen minutes on average. The objects that can be spotted from the ground vary considerably in size and magnitude. I think sightings should have a top level category if it can't go into the education, where I thought it belonged, as it is most helpful to students, and people 'studying' the skies. The education section already relates to adult studies. What is your thinking, why did you remove it from education, why is it in structure ?
Also colds7ream, can you explain your reasoning on the other changes you made to my index cleanup, why is education a part of exploration(of mars/moon/solar system) ? was it a typo on your part ? Penyulap talk 10:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
SSSM
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)
ISSRG
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).10th
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).ESA-IGA
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).RSA-MOU
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).heavens-above
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).ResProg
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
NASA stated during the most recent shuttle mission STS-134 that the assembly of the ISS was completed with the last shuttle EVA and the final EVA by shuttle astronauts? — Rsteilberg talk 03:44, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Of the United States portion.-- Craigboy ( talk) 04:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
When checking the links for "The station is expected to remain in operation until at least 2015, and likely 2020.[8][9]" which don't reflect the new date of 2028 which was mentioned in tokyo, one of those links mentions the "The Augustine Committee (in 2010?) estimated that the heavy lift rocket for getting to the moon would not be available until 2028 or 2030, and even then they found “there are insufficient funds to develop the lunar lander and lunar surface systems until well into the 2030s, if ever." That seems to indicate that the changing plans NASA has are winding back further. Is there any up to date link that show the progress of a moon or mars manned mission?, what I mean is, I know a lot of people who have plans to goto the moon and mars, but they have no budget and no spaceships. Is there a link to information about the work being done to get astronauts to Mars or the Moon ? that would be a good link to include to show they still are working on it in 2011 Penyulap talk 19:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Though mostly likely not on purpose someone has made the intro a mess (space station paragraph is fine though). The article doesn't need to list each agency's mission statement's in the opening paragraph. ISS's location is listed on NASA's website, you don't need Heavens-Above. ISS is not expected to be remain operational all the way to 2028 (the used sources state this). Criticism shouldn't be listed in opening paragraph.-- Craigboy ( talk) 21:14, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment I also take issue with Penyulap's rewrite of the lead section, and have rolled it back while discussion continues. The efforts are certainly appreciated, but there are a number of issues with the revised version and it is clear to me that the older version is stronger at present. As this is a featured article, it is important to maintain stability and as such I ask Penyulap to avoid simply restoring a personal version into the article until it can be resolved here. -- Ckatz chat spy 18:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
'As of the conclusion of Expedition 15, 138 major science investigations had been conducted on the ISS. Scientific findings, in fields from basic science to exploration research, are published every month.[15]'
Wow, that is so old, it's like expedition 27 already. Looking at that I'm like, it has so got to DIE, any objections ? it's main contribution to the article when you read the context is just useless busywork that nobody wants to do, so wiping it out has my vote. Anyone want to adopt it ? No ? -and keep the link by moving it somewhere else.. Penyulap talk 21:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
'(It's an international project - such a nationalistic cold-war-ish statement should not be in the opening paragraph.)'
'(Removed the Russian lead in paragraph. Its an international program, Russia should not be the focus.)'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43216921/ns/technology_and_science-space/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20110527/sc_space/astronautscompletespacestationin4thfinalspacewalk
That's Yahoo and MSNBC spreading LIES about the ISS, and what army do we have fighting for neutrality ? Ever heard of friendly fire ? were not any cohesive force, were a mess.
1 The International Space Station (ISS) is a manned,
artificial satellite is an internationally developed research facility being constructed in
low Earth orbit.
'Anthropology professor Lawrence Hirschfeld gives an example of what constitutes the essence of a tiger, regardless of whether it is striped or albino, or has lost a leg. The essential properties of a tiger are those without which it is no longer a tiger. Other properties, such as stripes or number of legs, are considered inessential or 'accidental'.
2 The ISS is an international effort with 5 partners, who all carry out scientific research on-board the ISS in diverse fields. See Scientific research on the ISS. [1]
3 Current objectives vary, (space agencies in alphabetical order)
4 The ISS is a synthesis of several space station projects that include the American Freedom, the European Columbus, the Japanese Kibō and the Russian / Soviet space station program, which has maintained an average of at least one space station on orbit since 1971 see space stations. [9] [10] Budget constraints led to the merger of these projects into a single multi-national programme. [9]
5 The ISS follows the Salyut, Almaz, Cosmos, Skylab, and MIR space stations, as the 11th space station successfully launched into orbit by humanity. Space stations such as Genesis I and II are not intended to be inhabited by humans. [11] On-orbit construction of the station began in 1998 and is scheduled for completion by mid-2012.
6 The station is expected to remain in operation until at least 2020, and potentially to 2028. [12] [13]
7 Like many artificial satellites, the ISS can be seen from Earth with the naked eye.7A Websites such as Heavens-Above provide instructions. 7 It is especially easy because of the ISS's Apparent magnitude. After the Sun, Magnitude -27 and Moon -13, the ISS -6 is the brightest object in the sky, ahead of Venus -5, Jupiter -3 and Mars -3. This excludes short-lived phenomenon such as Bolides and Iridium flares.
8 The station is divided into two main sections, the Russian Orbital Section (ROS) and the United States on-Orbit Segment (USOS). The ROS handles Guidance, Navigation & Control for the entire Station, [14] primary propulsion and primary life support. The USOS contains the largest laboratory, JAXA's Kibo, NASA's Destiny lab, ESA's Columbus lab and 2,500 Sq meters of solar panels to power them, along with additional life support (Oxygen generators) and a second toilet. The station is maintained at an orbit between 278 km (173 mi) and 460 km (286 mi) altitude, and travels at an average speed of 27,743.8 km/h (17,239.2 mph), completing 15.7 orbits per day. [15]
9 The ISS can maintain orbit and perform maneuvers autonomously. Expedition crews, from safe minimum of two, to seven upon completion, have so far maintained an uninterrupted human presence in orbit since the launch of Expedition 1 on 31 October 2000, a total of 23 years and 257 days. The programme thus holds the current record for the longest uninterrupted human presence in space, surpassing the previous record of ten years, set aboard Mir (3,644 days). [16] The station is serviced by Soyuz spacecraft, Progress spacecraft, Space Shuttle, the Automated Transfer Vehicle and the H-II Transfer Vehicle, [17] and has been visited by astronauts and cosmonauts from 15 different nations. [18] As of March 2011 [update], the station consists of fifteen pressurised modules and an extensive integrated truss structure (ITS). The ownership and use of the space station is established in intergovernmental treaties and agreements [19] that allow the Russian Federation to retain full ownership of its own modules in the Russian Orbital Segment, [20] with the US Orbital Segment, the remainder of the station, allocated between the other international partners. [19]
Like/dislike yes/no please feel free to comment...? Penyulap talk 21:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd also like to change the date information from 23 years and 257 days to I think an easier format 23 years, 8 months and 14 days. At this point, I'd like to see all changes above except 1 and 7A implemented. However I'm not touching the opening paragraph at the moment even for the most basic reasons, like 'completed' I'll leave it all to someone else, or until the articles major contributor colds7ream returns from RL to offer his opinion. Penyulap talk 08:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
The Lead has been updated to a draft-level version of the above, and I'm fixing up refs before moving on to polishing up the lead. The following issues have been addressed ..
In regards to overall consistency with the remainder of the article, it is not as large a problem as it was when the discussion opened. The parts of the new lead I have authored are consistent in style and prose with other additions to the article that I have also authored. The article has had some additions to it, which I have authored, since the time the discussion first opened. The overall consistency of the proposed lead in regards to the remainder of the article has therefore changed slightly. I would therefore suggest the problem of consistency is slightly smaller. I would be pleased and welcome any suggestions about any particular sentences, I would welcome even more if people simply go ahead and edit it themselves in a constructive manner, that is, making specific changes to anything they feel needs fixing, rather than reverting large portions of the article, containing material which they have no problem with.
In regards to poor grammar, punctuation or spelling I will not address such concerns myself, I ask for help in this regard. However, to preempt any suggestion that the new lead should be overturned for this reason, I would like to point out that spelling grammar and punctuation are not a legitimate reason to revert material, further, if there is any such rule, I will ignore it under WP:IAR guidelines. Penyulap talk 02:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest to anyone who thinks Canada is not a good place to start with the list of partners, or wants NASA to be more prominent, they could rearrange the list using country names, instead of partner names, and it would still have all 5 partners listed in a neutral manner. Penyulap talk 02:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Please be aware that the category cleanup may cause problems with other articles that link into the ISS page, I'm going to do a safari to find those and fix them, if your aware of any problems please let me know so I can fix them, or feel free to edit them, or change that category back...
If possible I'd like to simplify the last one to
But that's not to suggest any changes to any editors policy on how they edit their section, it's just a suggestion relating to the title, that's all.
However I'll wait a few days at least before making such a minor change to such frequently edited sections, enquire if it will be a nuisance to those editors who maintain the page.
Any comments or concerns?, is anything else out of place? Penyulap talk 15:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
actually I just wp:bb because with 2011 in the text, it can't be linked to very well.. Penyulap talk 00:32, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Whilst on the subject of sightings RadioFan, the part you edited in the sightings section "The ISS orbits at an inclination of 51.6 degrees to Earth's equator, necessary to ensure that Russian Soyuz spacecraft launched the the Baikonur Cosmodrome are capable of reaching the station.[132] While this orbit makes the station visible from most points on Earth, it is not visible from extreme northern or southern latitudes." I object to, as it implies that the Russian Soyuz is not capable of reaching the station in other orbits, which is not correct. It's a very flexible craft with a relatively high flight ceiling and can reach the harder-to-get-to orbit of 71 which is proposed for opsek. I can't agree with the use of 'capable', or 'necessary to ensure' without additional refs that support that. 'capable' is not the word the space elevator bloke used, I read some of his book (incidentally I think he missed out some interesting things, he should have outlined how tethers can interact with the magnetosphere to provide spacecraft propulsion for satellites, and emphasized that tethers are going to be more successful in use around the moon, because it has almost no debris, but he was being brief and non-technical). I do want to support you if you can write up how the orbit effects launches from all the launch sites, such as french guiana and japan as well as russia and america. Basically, the higher the inclination or payload the more fuel is needed (or less payload) thats why reboosting the station is delayed for weeks until just after a shuttle mission, it's to let the ISS drop low and let the shuttle carry more cargo. The ATV and HTV are heavy vehicles like the shuttle, but the soyuz is the lightest, 'it's not a truck' as the astronaut on his way up said the other day on tv. It has only one purpose, to carry people. Actually the crew seemed really overwhelmed when they spoke of it, saying how 'this craft' had only a single purpose, it was built 'for us' or did he say 'for me' ? well, anyhow he seemed to be having a religious experience about it being tailored especially to him, which it is. Anyhow, point is, it's the lightest of all manned spacecraft in use and has the greatest operational ceiling. The extra fuel it doesn't use flows back and forth into the space station automatically through the russian docking ports, the station is like a petrol station for the spacecraft, so extra fuel is offloaded into zaryas fuel tanks. Penyulap talk 21:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The article suggests that it is invisible in the shadow, but this isn't true. I've seen it on numerous occasions with binoculars, and I would estimate the brighness to be about +7 or +8 when overhead, deep into the shadow. Now, there aren't many reports of such observations, so it is not easy to find appropriate sources for this.
What is clear is that it is very plausible that the ISS is visible in binoculars, as you can easily calculate that just few tens of Watts of the interior lighting escaping is enough to make it bright enough to be visible in binos. I'm not suggesting we include this in Wikipedia right now, it's just an interesting thing to look into. Count Iblis ( talk) 02:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
(inserted note) The Magnitude of the ISS is sourced from the apparent magnitude article. It's currently stated at -5.9 and is rounded off to -6 occasionally in this article. The following long conversation was created mostly because of my poor memory, I apologize to all involved, and for the clutter I created. I simply couldn't recall where I got the final figure from after researching and writing. Penyulap talk 00:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Please edit directly under this text to add your support or objection to the use of figures from the magnitude page. I abstain. Penyulap talk 23:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
There are better references pending on Magnitude, it will be updated onto the Magnitude page as well if it all checks out, but it will effect the wording in comparison to Venus, and may well see some more temporary additions to the 'media' section. I hope CountIblis will clarify all this. Penyulap talk 07:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Click here to skip to the next section, Inclination
Count Iblis, please use the talkpage rather than the edit summary to express the reasons why you have changed Radiofan's editing of my text about magnitude.
I support Radiofans alteration of my text on the whole, except for the use of the word 'rivaled' (the ISS is not trying to, or designed to compete with the sun or moon) other satellites have used reflective surfaces to light up some northern hemisphere towns i recall, or have been proposed with a few tests.
Also 'with a maximum apparent magnitude when directly overhead of -3.8, slightly less bright than Venus.' may only be correct for your viewing position, but I can't help you further as you have not included a reference, which is necessary. Also 'less bright' I think could be improved upon.
I'd support the use of 'approximate magnitude of ' or 'approximate apparent magnitude' if that helps reach consensus.
Penyulap talk 19:37, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Count Iblis ( talk) 19:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
And those edits have been reverted. There is no consensus here that the -6 figure (now more accurately stated as -5.9) is problematic. Reliable sources for this information have been supplied if you have similarly reliable sources refuting it, then please share them here. Until then, please stop removing this section.-- RadioFan ( talk) 23:47, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Penyulap talk 23:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message802635/pg1 this one is a good link to an article that may be able to be found in an archive somewhere? like the internet archive maybe ? suggests -8
http://kendalastronomer.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/a-bit-of-satellite-watching/ no good http://www.disclose.tv/forum/nearby-asteroid-found-orbiting-sun-backwards-t3858.html -8, not bad. http://www.space.com/6870-spot-satellites.html pointing at -8
as you see, there is lots of work to do, but I was aiming at a conservative figure of -6 as a 'current' and reasonable maximum someone could be reasonably expected to observe, whereas some people are luckier being closer to the ground tracks, you should read up on the ground tracks of the iridium satellites, they are easier to predict. The solar panels on the station aren't rotated like clockwork, and they aren't all needed to operate at the same time as they don't always have load for them, because there aren't so many experiments going on. The reason the Russians haven't launched their science power platforms is there is just too much cheap electricity coming from the USOS's panels.... Penyulap talk 00:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes yes, I agree they all FAIL wprs, I'm giving them as a place for you guys to start research, if I could find the original one I used for the -6 I'd just mention it, actually, what kind of an idiot am I? we should just go back and check it, it's got to be in there before colds7ream rolled back the article, maybe it's good, maybe it's a fail too. Either way, the pages will help give everyone a better idea of what this whole magnitude thing is about, it's a measured thing, from the ground, by astronomers, not something dictated by NASA or Chris Peat, it's not their department. It's astronomy, or at least I'm sure it is, I asked the question on astronomy and astrophotography pages, as it's not mentioned on either of those pages yet, so hopefully I can get astronomy experts to tell me if satellite viewing is or is not astronomy, and who knows, maybe give me a definitive answer as to who determines magnitude, and how, and help phrasing it correctly. If there can't be consensus on magnitude thats ok to, because we don't need to find any particular figure, we just say 'the magnitude of the station is determined by astronomers, this observatory[1] reports it can be been as high as X' or 'the exact magnitude of the station varies, some report it as high as' and just go with good, well referenced observatories... something like that. like i mentioned before mass and magnitude cannot be calculated, they can only be measured. Penyulap talk 00:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Can I suggest Like many artificial satellites, the ISS can be seen from Earth with the naked eye. After the Sun and Moon the ISS is the brightest object in the sky Because both the moon, which wanes into a new moon, and the sun which sets, like the ISS can be variable, the ISS can be considered along those same lines, as the brightest object in the sky, sometimes, and we don't need to qualify it as sometimes, because the moon and sun don't need qualification either. Actually, it seems to be in there that way at the moment too... I just copied it. But thats the lead suggestion, and it should be explained in the sightings section more fully Penyulap talk 00:49, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Here is a suggestion for the Form of the sightings section, please consider it separate to the -6/-4 stuff, just the context.
It is especially easy to see the ISS without the use of equipment because of it's Apparent magnitude. After the Sun, Magnitude -27 and Moon -13, the ISS -X is the brightest object in the sky, ahead of Venus -5, Jupiter -3 and Mars -3. This excludes short-lived phenomenon such as Bolides and Iridium flares. [21]
Any good? we can of course make the figures exact, but for form is there consensus ? X is a figure we can determine separately Penyulap talk
as a short way to say it ?
And guys, don't worry about the article, Count Iblis is wanting to help, not adding profanity and such to the talkpage, and Count, just discuss and edit here, until everyone agrees first, then the article can be changed. Otherwise it's problematic for readers if we use the article as a sketchpad. Lets please continue
Penyulap
talk
01:37, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Basically the ISS is brighter, but like the moon, venus, and the sun, it does not reach it's maximum magnitude all the time as viewed from the observers location. But it is fundamentally the brightest object in the sky, second to the moon and sun, on a regular basis, excluding short-lived phenomenon such as iridium flares and bolides.? Penyulap talk 01:43, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
The apparent magnitude (m) of a celestial body is a measure of its brightness as seen by an observer on Earth, normalized to the value it would have in the absence of the atmosphere. The brighter the object appears, the lower the value of its magnitude. from the article Penyulap talk 01:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh for crying out loud that is where I got the original figure from. the magnitude article. that's where it is, case closed on the figure for magnitude, i was correct at the beginning, and it's their headache not ours ! Sorry for the trouble my poor memory has given you guys... Penyulap talk 01:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Just to let everyone know my exams this year are this week, so I'll be back editing properly soon! :-) Colds7ream ( talk) 11:38, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
I want to undo the redo of the old lead. I'm sorry Colds7ream, I have the deepest respect for your monumental past efforts but there many problems with the revert.
'take a deep breath, and count to ten.' -Directly from the wiki guidelines for exactly this situation
I spent a lot of time looking for the guidelines that say exactly this, to demonstrate moving on is not my idea, it's wiki ideal. Thats when I found the link above. I didn't find the part about moving on after FA in the guidelines anywhere, you know why ? after searching for ages to show you, I found it is at the top of this page.
Seriously if your just going to come back once a week or once a fortnight to go on living in the past and drag everyone else with you, without even reading what you are putting up there, then I can't be bothered updating the lead either, it's in the same crappy situation it is with MrClick who wouldn't articulate on the talkpage to save his life. Penyulap talk 15:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and by the way, as I have been doing constant and consistent research into all aspects of the ISS over the last few months, which everyone can see, as I have been adding the latest information and updating existing information across all subjects, and in depth spending countless hours and soliciting new material for release into the public domain from many sources including JAXA, I can justifiably say as an expert on all the latest ISS matters in diverse fields, the lead is crap. That is my opinion. If you'd like to know why, or what is wrong with the lead, I've already done your homework for you while you were away and It's written above on the talkpage, or some of it is. Penyulap talk 15:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Where are my manners, I forgot to wish you well in RL, I do look forward to working with you in future, when you decide to drop by again, and if you ever use the talkpage I'll be happy to work with you on improvements, if you ever think improvement is possible. In the mean time I won't bother making any updates to the lead no matter how justified they are, realizing they'll just be undone, whats the point? I'll just wait here and twiddle my thumbs and read a book. Penyulap talk 16:00, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Like many artificial satellites, the ISS can be seen from Earth with the naked eye. After the Sun and Moon the ISS is the brightest object in the sky.
Above is part of the previous content I wrote in a cleanup of the lead. I would like to ask Colds7ream, Craigboy, UK50, and John Darrow(john is the spelling/grammar ok?) Also TheAnarcat, Ckatz, Eregli bob, Mnw2000, other editors (sorry if I've left you out) and editors not logged in (I value your opinion as much as anyone's) reasons why this statement is more or less correct than the the text as restored by colds7ream.
With a greater mass than that of any previous space station, the ISS can be seen from the Earth with the naked eye, and, as of 2011[update], is the largest artificial satellite orbiting the Earth.
To avoid edit warring behavior, please explain reasons about the content rather than editors, except to differentiate between the two. Please state reasons here, not in the edit summary.
The Mass of the station in the infobox is outdated. Doesn't have the last module in it.
The form of stating the stations mass needs changing, it needs the word 'approximate' or something similar.
As opposed to the size and geometry of the complex, which can be calculated, Mass and Magnitude can only be measured or estimated. You can quote conflicting sources to the end of time and they'll all be estimates, for example the crew don't weigh the trash as it's loaded into the robots for de-orbit, they don't have time or reason to. Calculating the mass by the re-boost burns is easier, using the propellant expended and the change in orbit. The mass of the complex is in the infobox, but could be mentioned again elsewhere qualified as an estimate, or a comparison, not a specific weight presented as a fact.
'approx 415' or approx '450' (my guess) or 'estimated at 415 tons' or '415 not including crew, experiments, supplies or propellants' simplified into 'empty weight' this is better than calculations adding launch weights together without qualifying it.
The Nasa source is outdated, it's last year, there is another module, plus every time a progress robot arrives or leaves it's about 2 1/2 tons difference in payload alone. Then, should 'lifeboats' be included in station mass, or separate like visiting spacecraft ?
Is anyone having trouble understanding any of this ?
I'd like anyone's input for ideas to improve the structure of statements about mass. Penyulap talk 09:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I've split the Purpose section into Science and exploration subsections. The material looks very different from one section to the other, like, exploration seems to be all about mission statements and the like rather than science ... I guess there is no getting around it, obviously. It just looks weird to me, and the mention of china is freaking me out too. Anyhow please comment.
(existing lead-in) The ISS provides a location in the relative safety of Low Earth Orbit to test spacecraft systems that will be required for long-duration missions to the Moon and Mars. This provides experience in the maintenance, repair, and replacement of systems on-orbit, which will be essential in operating spacecraft further from Earth. Mission risks are reduced, and the capabilities of interplanetary spacecraft are advanced. [22]
ESA states 'Human exploration of our Solar System is an important focus for ESA... The ISS is essential for answering questions concerning the possible impact of weightlessness, radiation and other space-specific factors, other aspects such as the effect of long-term isolation and confinement can be more appropriately addressed via ground-based simulations' [23].
NASA chief Charlie Bolden stated in Feb 2011 "Any mission to Mars is likely to be a global effort" [24]. Currently the space agencies of Europe, Russia and China are carrying out the ground-based preparations in the Mars500 project which complement the ISS-based preparations for a manned mission to Mars [25]. China is not an ISS Partner, and no chinese national has been aboard. China has it's own Space station [26], due for launch in 2011, and has officially initiated its program for a modular station [27]. China is willing to cooperate further with other countries on manned exploration [28]. Penyulap talk 21:19, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The passage starts with the Original purpose in relation to exploration, which is far outdated now, but is included as the starting point of the story. 'A long time ago...' it has to be left in the past tense, to avoid misunderstanding. It's not the current purpose of the station to act as a base for interplanetary manned missions and so forth. All plans for that I know of are beyond the (proposed 2028) end-of-mission date.
The story moves onto the current purpose in regards to exploration, and then in the last sentences, the future purpose or possibilities.
Please state support or concerns with this approach. Penyulap talk 08:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I wrote new material and arranged the purpose section and it's subsections here stating the essential aspects of the purpose (as best I could from my research).
From Essentialism 'Anthropology professor Lawrence Hirschfeld gives an example of what constitutes the essence of a tiger, regardless of whether it is striped or albino, or has lost a leg. The essential properties of a tiger are those without which it is no longer a tiger. Other properties, such as stripes or number of legs, are considered inessential or 'accidental'.
Why is the space station used for scientific research ? scientific research can easily be done on earth, can't it ?
The ISS is essential 'to conduct experiments that require one or more of the unusual conditions present on the station.' Then the purpose section has two subsections, which explain two of those conditions briefly. The subsections are Space environment and Microgravity.
The purpose section moves on to explain why the ISS is essential to exploration. It covers the original purpose which has evolved and changed with each new administration. Starting in the past with the original purpose, it is currently missing the present purpose (which needs insertion, it was disputed, removed, I haven't added new text there as yet) and goes on to the partners intentions (those which I have found so far). The section hasn't changed, and remains in the same place in purpose. The purpose section then moves on to education, covering the unique interaction the ISS has with classroom studies and astronomy studies, one section runs into the other, so students in the classroom can observe the ISS directly.
The purpose section finished with the cultural outreach section, not intended to be trivia, but to cover topics such as Arts in space, such as this which is not science or exploration or education. It would outline the use of the ISS to ease international (cold war style) tensions between nations, and possibly absorb items of importance that fit nowhere else, such as the ISS in movies and books, but thats beyond the scope of my enquiry, I'd leave it to others decide what goes in there besides art, and what doesn't.
Currently the sections are in disarray. I've asked the admin why they have been changed here on the 10th of June, but no reasons have been forthcoming from any editor as to why the categories are arranged in their current state. Astronomy is the study of celestial objects, so I'd suggest that it is more a part of education, rather than station structure, granted it is not the purpose of the ISS to be studied, but it helps the education section, which is teachers and students first port of call. Sightings of the station are almost always done from on earth not from the station structure. The station structure is not essential to sightings, many smaller satellites are observed from earth, even with the naked eye.
Microgravity is not part of station structure, the purpose of the structure is to study and take advantage of microgravity. But the station doesn't create artificial gravity, it's built in a place that takes advantage of it. There are reasons why it would go into the structure section, but it is required in the purpose section to explain the purpose.
Likewise, the space environment, not in it's current form, but in it's form here (same ref) is also required to explain purpose, it mentions the dangers of the space environment in passing because scientific studies performed on the ISS involve studies of it's effects on the health of space travelers. It also flows into the exploration section, which discusses the space environment and microgravity. In it's earlier form the safety aspects section covered issues relating solely to the crew onboard. Iss->Safety as in crew safety only. Penyulap talk 11:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Colds7ream, can I have your thoughts on this reasoning please ? Penyulap talk 23:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Here is some new text for the education section, I'm still waiting and working on JAXA for images to be released into the public domain, but I would like to see if there is support for mention of the EPO experiments. I don't know if it's good enough without pics. The proposed new text of the Education and cultural outreach section would look like this. Italics added for clarity.
Part of the crew's mission is educational outreach and international cooperation. The crew of the ISS provide opportunities for students on Earth by running student-developed experiments, making educational demonstrations, and allowing for student participation in classroom versions of ISS experiments, and directly engaging students using radio, videolink and email. The ISS program itself, with the international cooperation that it represents, allows more than 20 nations to live and work together in space, providing lessons for future multi-national missions.[refs]
Amateur Radio on the ISS (ARISS) is a volunteer program which inspires students worldwide, to pursue careers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics through amateur radio communications opportunities with the ISS crew. ARISS is an international working group, consisting of delegations from 9 countries including several countries in Europe as well as Japan, Russia, Canada, and the USA. The organization is run by volunteers from the national amateur radio organizations and the international AMSAT (Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation) organizations from each country.[refs]
JAXA also utilizes the Kibo laboratory for culture/humanities and social sciences. JAXA states that Looking into the Space environment and guiding the humankind to untold surprise or wonder, and broadening our wisdom is one of the goals of the International Space Station.[refs]
please edit below this text for support/objection to going with the above text, and working out pics here later on.
The verbatim phrase from JAXA is 'Looking into the Space environment and guiding the humankind to untold surprise or wonder, and broadening our wisdom are one of the goals of the International Space Station.' I changed the word 'are' to 'is' so I don't use quotation marks, or should it be put into quotation marks and left as it is? maybe with [sic] added ?
The photos in the public domain are no good at all, it's better for now I think to with just the text alone. I'm trying to get pictures like these Art 1 Art 2 art 3 in japanese, art 4and here is a 4.0 MB PDF, the marbling in space pic would be good I think. Any image I can get, I'd like to make it as small as is practical, about the size of the ones in the pressurized modules table. Personally I think art is less appealing to the western general public, however sections of all communities, and the Japanese, seem to me to take art and culture quite seriously, and so as one of the ongoing stated goals of the ISS, I think it rates at least a minor mention in this section. Penyulap talk 00:59, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone want to find out the cost of the ISS? the existing refs are incomplete and outdated at best. Possibly where accurate info for a particular partner can be found, it can be mentioned it's that partners cost... The ESA ref has nothing going for it, except being on the ESA page, it doesn't state anything of who did the estimate or how they arrived at the figures they did. Penyulap talk 00:15, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
What about something like this....
Country | Agency | Budget (USD) |
---|---|---|
![]() |
NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration) | $19,000 million [29] |
![]() |
ESA (European Space Agency) | $5,430 million (2011) [30] |
![]() |
ROSCOSMOS (Russian Federal Space Agency) | $3,800 million (2011) [31] |
![]() |
JAXA (Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency) | $2,460 million [32] |
![]() |
CSA (Canadian Space Agency) | $300 million [33] |
ISS partners | All space agencies annual budgets | approx $1.77 citation needed |
Penyulap talk 23:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
it has the total budgets for all agencies, I think with some asking about, we might get some help from the same people who made the original table I cut up from this page List of space agencies and maybe some brief little pie-charts like in the utilization section for USOS hardware allocation, to show modules/segments total by agency, rockets and/or payload kg's of supplies per agency, that sort of thing, to explain the contributions from different agencies. Penyulap talk 23:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to state that I support MLM42's removal of text relating to the 'most expensive object', but would reconsider if a reference can be found that has a well thought out estimated cost of the telephone. Two different refs is cool, like "the ISS is the most expensive object at X dollars [1] exceeding the Telephone which cost Y dollars [2]." I don't know either cost, but I bet the devil my head the telephone to date comes out on top. Penyulap talk 20:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Well this is a snapshot of the current state of the Costs section
Costs
The cost estimates for the ISS range from 35 billion to 160 billion dollars.[28] ESA, the one agency which actually presents potential overall costs, estimates €100 billion for the entire station over 30 years.[27] A precise cost estimate for the ISS is unclear, as it is difficult to determine which costs should be attributed to the ISS program, or how the Russian contribution should be measured.[28]
On March 14, 2000 President Bill Clinton signed the Iran Nonproliferation Act of 2000 (INA), which created a problem for NASA in its financial dealings with the Russian space agency. Section 6 of the Act "prohibits the U.S. Government from making payments in connection with the ISS to the Russian space agency, organizations or entities under its control, or any other element of the Russian government, after January 1, 1999, unless the President makes a determination that Russia's policy is to oppose proliferation to Iran, that Russia is demonstrating a sustained commitment to seek out and prevent the transfer of WMD (weapons of mass destruction) and missile systems to Iran, and that neither the Russian space agency nor any entity reporting to it has made such transfers for at least one year prior to such determination." [208] Section 6 incorporated a "crew safety exception" which was intended to prevent "imminent loss of life" and also allowed for payments involving Russia's Service Module and docking hardware that was already in process when the Act was being debated. At an October 12, 2000 House International Relations Committee hearing, NASA was criticized for its broad interpretation of the word “imminent” in the crew safety exception.[209] In 2006 Russia was no longer obligated to provide transportation of American astronauts aboard the Soyuz spacecraft without payment. With this deadline looming, in 2005 Congress amended the INA to exempt Soyuz flights from the Section 6 ban. The exemption was renewed in 2008 and is in effect through 2016. [210]
I think this is a poor excuse for us all not to do any work, the costs must be out there somewhere and I'd like everyone's, anyone's help in finding them. Iran stuff is politics that belongs elsewhere, it doesn't help anyone find out how much the space station costs. The first paragraph has useful information which will probably be superseded by up to date info in the new section. A draft of the new section will probably be more useful to people trying to get an idea of costs, so I'll go straight ahead with it, replacing what is there now. References will be missing for some of the information initially, because some of it is in foreign languages, and I'd love any help fixing refs anyone would like to give. Please don't give DEconstructive assistance (like deleting sections with click click click) please be constructive by finding one agency, any agency, and finding their costs. Penyulap talk 04:53, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Here is what I am adding now,
The cost estimates for the ISS range from 35 billion to 160 billion dollars. [34] ESA, estimates €100 billion for the entire station over 30 years. [35]
The NASA budget for 2007 estimates costs for the ISS (excluding shuttle costs) at $US25.6 billion for the years 1994 to 2005. NASA's annual contribution increase from 2010 to $US2.3 billion and is likely to remain at that level until 2017.
Based on costs incurred plus a projected $2.5 Billion per year from 2011-2017, NASA spending since 1993 not including shuttle spending comes to $US53 Billion. An additional 33 Shuttle assembly and supply flights equates to $35 Billion. With addition costs from development of the freedom station project precursor, NASA's contribution comes to approximately $US100 Billion.
ESA spending on a 30-year projected station lifespan is €8 billion. Consisting of Columbus development €1 Billion. ATV's First launch and development €1.35 Billion, subsequent launches €875 Million X 4 scheduled, Ariane-5 launch costs of €125 million each. ATV total costs €2.85 Billion.
JAXA Kibo $2.8 Billion, plus operating costs 350-400 Million annually. HTV development 68 billion yen, Plus HTV launch costs of about ¥ 250 billion.
Total costs for Kibo until 2010 ¥7,100 billion, consisting of development approximately ¥ 250 billion, Kibo laboratory equipment development cost about ¥450 billion, approximately ¥2,360 billion in costs and expenses of shuttle launches. Astronaut training, ground facilities, experiment-related expenses approximately 110 billion yen.
JAXA Annual costs since 2011 at about 400 billion yen, consisting of the operating costs (such as maintenance, astronaut training) about 90 billion yen, (experiment-related costs), about 40 billion yen, and HTV launches.
RSA costs are difficult to determine as substantial development costs of the Robotic Progress Cargoships, Manned/Robotic Soyuz Spacecraft, and Proton Rockets used for module launches, are spread across previous Soviet rocket programs. Cost of development for Module design such as DOS base blocks, life support, docking systems etc are spread across the budgets of the Salmat, Almaz, and MIR I and MIR II programs. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin stated in Jan 2011 that the government will spend 115 billion rubles ($3.8 bln) on national space programs in 2011, however this includes the entire space program which will launch a spacecraft on average once per week during 2011.
CSA spending over the last 20 years is estimated at $CA1.4 Billion. Including development of the Canadarm2 and SPDM.
It is rough, but please state if you support further editing and protection against widespread deletion, or object to it's inclusion and want it returned to the previous version. Please edit below this text to state support or objection. Penyulap talk 07:37, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
The section on Safety aspects has a lot of things that just don't relate to safety of the station at all, I'd like to cut a lot of the information that doesn't belong there. air leak and the venting of smoke from an Elektron oxygen generator stay, these are safety issues.
Some items are simple maintainence notes like solar array trouble, which has no effect upon life support, the big arrays basically run science experiments, which would have to shut down if the arrays don't work. The implications for heating the station are minor, considering modules that can't be used anyway because of long term power failure could be closed off..
Basically these items don't belong in safety, as they pose no threat whatsoever.
Those need research to see what is and isn't true as the original citation wouldn't have met Yahoo standards let alone Wiki standards... the corrosion is all correct, but whether it had implications is another thing, they have backups for ALL life support systems, full stop. It may have re-arranged the work schedule to bring redundant systems online and repair broken ones, but thats just work scheduling and maintainence.
The 2007 link about the solar array gives the reader an impression of danger regarding the solar array, which even the reporter admits could simply be jettisoned, and the items 'at risk' were things like assembly schedules and science capabilities. The crew member was in no danger as they'd taken appropriate measures for working on the live electrical cables, and were clearly satisfied it was a job worth doing, their mode of repair shows a well thought out plan. The reporter is just alarmist saying things like this "The spacewalk was considered particularly risky, with Parazynski venturing farther from the safety of the station than ever before. " and " just before the pair left the safety of the station's airlock. " http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/03/AR2007110300227.html
The stations engines are designed to be fired without killing the entire crew and destroying the station, but maybe I'll check on that eh? sheesh.
again, this doesn't address how it relates to station safety. Basically, power comes in through the solar arrays, when you add, say 50kw of electrical energy to anything inside a closed room, you get 50kw of heat energy coming out, the radiators carry away the heat from the modules, and dispel it into space as infrared radiation. So if your cooling system loses 30 percent of it's capacity, you switch off 30% of your electrical load. Or, simply switch off everything and the whole station will freeze.
So I propose deleting everything except the Fire and air leak, which are safety issues. The rest can be moved to the ISS Maintainence article, which as it's name suggests is an article so boring nobody has created it. Mir had safety issues, with the Robot spacecraft crashing into the station. That is probably a good read, but this is just making the article longer. Is there anything people think should be in there, or moved somewhere else ? Penyulap talk 22:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
The article called 'major incidents on the ISS' could be changed to ISS Maintainence if people wanted to do that. It would be a more appropriate title. Penyulap talk 08:34, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
(this section has been edited to remove jokes at the request of RadioFan, and a general cleanup too)
(inserted) Short answer, Sightings is a subsection of Education, which is a subsection of Purpose. That's where I put it, other people have messed with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Penyulap ( talk • contribs) 11:23, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
(cur | prev) 11:56, 10 June 2011 Colds7ream (talk | contribs) (169,856 bytes) (Move 'sightings' out of 'purpose' too. Which damnfool idiot decided that sighting the station is part of its purpose?! :-S) (undo)
That (editor) would be me ! Good to see you back from RL.
The new sections were arranged by me with Purpose being split into subsections according to importance and material expected for them. I have no idea where they are at now, for reasons mentioned on my userpage.
I had listed the subsections in descending order of importance to the partners, and how much material would be incorporated into each category...
or with Education and cultural outreach as one section.
other possibilities for the sightings category listed below don't really grab at it or demand it's inclusion
So I put it with Sightings as a subsection of education, as a natural follow-on to the sections original text, to assist Teachers to get the kids looking up.
I don't care where you put it, it simply seemed logical when I was cleaning up the index, removed '2011' from the docking schedule as it'd need changing often, and I can't see it as helpful towards the end of each year, so the old was just copied below the new, inside the section, killed 'impacts of the IRAN nuclear proliferation treaty blah blah blah' as something boring you put in a section rather than it's title, i think it's in costs now. simplified things like 'scheduled to be launched' into minimalist headers for simplicity.. basically like that. I'd started off new sections and organized new homes for new material I'd been adding, The pope and that witch martha steward, and U2, I like U2 and the pope is just a granddad type of old guy, but what I think is irrelevant, I put that new section and new material in there for the many people who are interested in that sort of thing, for those people who come here looking. I stopped work in the middle because of problems with another user. Anyhow, new junk like the ISS in movies and books and so forth didn't have a place or section before, and thats where I was going before I stopped. Then some other editors put up expansion notes or something, which is pretty right really, I stopped mid-sentence really, and they'd found new things i think...
Anyhow, I'm quite happy to take colorful language from you as the person who cares most about this page, and anyone else who has made more contributions than I have. please feel free to switch on your skype and use even more colorful language too ! I invite you !
Penyulap talk 13:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
also, whilst I'm not going to change it myself, I'd like to point out that the 'exploration' subsection I made is like, an 'exploration of space' or 'exploration of other worlds' sort of thing, and education is a separate part of overall purpose to that, not really a part of exploration, just my thoughts. Penyulap talk 13:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Penyulap talk 14:10, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Colds7ream, why have you put sightings into station structure ? what is your thinking there, I can't see the logic for it. Certainly everything is related to station structure in some way, and for utilization and politics, it's all related to station structure, utilization is, in a big way, but the connection between station structure and sightings is much more remote. I can't see the connection there. Sightings are almost invariably done from the surface of the Earth, some from aircraft or spacecraft, but most of them, the majority, are done from outside the stations structure and far away. The stations structure has no special connection to the ability to see it, other satellites, many hundreds can be seen from the ground also. About 1 every ten or fifteen minutes on average. The objects that can be spotted from the ground vary considerably in size and magnitude. I think sightings should have a top level category if it can't go into the education, where I thought it belonged, as it is most helpful to students, and people 'studying' the skies. The education section already relates to adult studies. What is your thinking, why did you remove it from education, why is it in structure ?
Also colds7ream, can you explain your reasoning on the other changes you made to my index cleanup, why is education a part of exploration(of mars/moon/solar system) ? was it a typo on your part ? Penyulap talk 10:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
SSSM
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)
ISSRG
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).10th
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).ESA-IGA
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).RSA-MOU
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).heavens-above
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).ResProg
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)