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they don't consider themselves Hindu, and most hindu's don't either. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 21:00, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The definition of "Hinduism" has been used for the past few hundred years to describe the religions of South Asian that pay homage to one or more of the various traditions in pursuit of vedic literature and vedic tradition. In the attempt to catalog information, we have to recognize the limitations of these words and catagories. It is not unrealistic that ISKCON devotees could both identify as "Hindu" while also recognizing the limitations of that catagorization, and adding additional catagories to a complex personal identity. Many South Asian traditions use the term "Sanatana Dharma" which roughly translates to "eternal religion." This term acknowledges that the religious traditions now identifying as Hindu, did in fact exist long before the term "Hindu" was introduced as an historical evolution (albiet one that isn't easily dated).
The Caitanya Charitamrta (a Gaudiya Vaishnava hagiography on Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu) is one of the first "Hindu" scriptures to reference the word "Hindu." This scripture was constructed towards the end of the 15th century in Bengal, where Hindus identified their religious tradition in the context of a society ruled by a Muslem establishment. This date of 1500 BCE leaves the vast majority of Gaudiya Vaishnava literary tradition (from the Rig Veda circa 1500 BCE to the Caitanya Charitamrta circa 1500 CE) as predating "Hindu" identification.
The above sequence places the complex identity issue of Gaudiya-Vaishnava/Hindu/Sanatana-Dharma into its larger and more complex historical context.
My point is that these terms should never be so oversimplified as to allude to an either/or identity. JCM 5/24/05
I'd like to contribute to this discussion with the fact that Prabhupada often overtly denied any connection to Hinduism at all: 'The Krsna consciousness movement has nothing to do with the Hindu religion or any system of religion' (The Science of Self-realization, chapter 3). Another time he wrote: 'One should clearly understand that the Krsna consciousness movement is not preaching the so-called Hindu religion.' He could be even stronger in his judgement of Hinduism, calling it 'a dead religion' with 'no philosophy' (72-02-04.VAI) or 'a cheating religion' (731006BG.BOM). The last to references refer to Folio database 'The Complete Works of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada' (n.d.) and the Folio database 'The pre-1965 works of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada', Version 1.0, March 1995. PietjePrecies 15:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
(Sorry - that's just an attention grabber) How about adding some statistics on the number of books published by the movement? There must be some truly remarkable (if not staggering) figures out there that may be of interest. I envision a graph with years on the X axis and thousands (or millions?) of books published on the Y axis...
The edit by user 66._._..... was partly helpful and partly vandalism. If someone has the time his edits should be checked for factual accuracy. freestylefrappe 20:46, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
I hope I did the right thing by posting a Copy Viol notice. At least one section is lifted from [2] (and other sites) verbatim. Paul, in Saudi 28 June 2005 13:15 (UTC)
I would like the person that reversed the revisions in the previous version to explain why they did so, because the changes were NPOV not POV. In fact this version that it was changed to is POV. When both the versions are compared you will see that the changes refer to the following:
1) Prabhupada's death is physical-only and not spiritual. My version pointed this. Thus my version puts forward a view that the challenger did not like. It is a question of whether the vision should become limited or not. A limited vision is POV not NPOV.
2) The new version mentioned that the eleven chosen disciples were given the task of being instructing and NOT initiating gurus.
3) Other groups that follow the ritvik method of initiations were mentioned.
4) The website sources were linked.
5) The new version tells facts and new views as is thus a NPOV however the version we have now is POV because it ignores the new views and their websites sources.
6) The book changes to Prabhupada's books were mentioned and sources for the originals.
-- Volunteer 00:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added the word "physical" in context of death because it is important to clarify for anyone wanting to understand. If we do not put the word "physical" preceding the word "death" or in context elsewhere than this would become POV. We have to put the other view also so that is NPOV and a compromise is through inserting the word "physical."
-- Volunteer 11:12, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
A commentator had, I believe, meant to mention the names of the trinity, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and instead mistakenly used the phonetically similar word Brahman. As noted by another commentator, Brahman is an impersonal aspect of the Supreme Lord, God, and this is taught within the precepts of ISKCON. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are, according to the Srimad Bhagavatam, the creator, maintainer, and destroyer of the universe, respectively. They exist as a "trinity" and although Vishnu, the maintainer of the universe, is a plenary expansion of God, Brahma, and Shiva are demigods, strictly subordinate servitors to God in their positions for the creation and destruction of this universe. And, though Brahma creates the different forms of life after Vishnu creates the actual universe, these forms of life are then impregnated with their souls through an expansion Vishnu, not Brahma. Still, Vishnu is somewhat different from Krishna according to the scriptures provided by Srila Prabhupada. Although eternal, Vishnu exists for the creation and maintainance of the material world. All of the avatars of God, including those which incarnate (i.e., are "born") for a particular purpose, do originate from the body of Vishnu. However, ISKCON members believe that Krishna is the original, eternal form of God and is not an avatar or expansion. He is not an incarnation as avatars are. I am only trying to clarify a little here, as there seems to be so much discussion and speculation as to what we believe on this subject. Still this is a great simplification. I cannot possibly convey the full meaning of all that is written in our scriptures here. ISKCON member, 12/1/05.
The external links section is getting way out of hand. For example, there are nearly 20 links to random ISKCON members. According to the guidelines, Wikipedia is not a link repository. We don't need a link to every member, every pro-ISCON and every anti-ISKCON site. I propose to do some major pruning here. Comments anyone? -- Lee Hunter 20:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
ISKCON:
ISKCON UK:
ISKCON Devotees:
I've gone ahead and made a few changes to the page today and have listed the reasons by each one. But feel it really needs a lot of work still. More detailed descriptions, pictures? Also I see little point in having 3 external links to the same website on the same issue, so have kept it to one per site in each section. People will just skip past them otherwise. My apologies for any offence this may cause. GourangaUK 16:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Just out of curiousity I went back to this page to see if my links were still there. Just as a thought after a couple of hours of putting the links they were gone. Does anyone know who I can complain to in this website? bhaktin Miriam
I have added a few links to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness page a couple of months ago, but I realized that my links were being deleted. So, I added them again and again because they kept being removed. That annoyed me a lot. Then a couple of days ago, I was banned from this site for repeatledly committing vandalism, or at least that is what the message said. That was very scary for me since I have only added links and I have not touched anyone else's contributions.
On Novemeber 15, 2005 Narendra dasa wrote that he removed the child abuse section because he felt that those links were a smeared campaing against the Hare Krishnas. He also mentioned that child abuse in ISKCON (the Hare Krishna institution) is an old story that happened ten years ago.
I implore you, Narendra dasa to please leave that child abuse section alone. Anyone who goes into those links will see for themselves that the child abuse problem in the Hare Krishna Movement is alive and well. It is not a smear campaing.
I myself, have research this topic extensively for the past 5 years and have read numerous reports from ISKCON's Child Protection Office. I have even written several articles concerning this.
You are welcome to take a look at the articles that I have written in the past few months by going to one of the several Hare Krishna websites. My oldest article was published in the internet 5 years ago: http://www.oldchakra.com/articles/2000/08/16/dhanurdhara.swami/ My most recent articles were published in the very popular and acitve ISKCON friendly website, Chakra.org. One such article, written in two parts summarizes the Persistent Child Abuse Problem in the Hare Krishna movement: http://chakra.org/discussions/GurAug01_04.html http://chakra.org/discussions/GurAug02_04.html Other articles that I have written have been published in the Sampradaya Sun website, a very busy daily news site for Hare Krishna devotes. Please take a look at one such article and another one from Pandu dasa:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/editorials1.htm http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/editorials1.htm#9
My purpose is not to smear the Hare Krishna movement, but to bring to light that there are current conroversies and scandals in ISKCON
Yasodabhaktin Miriam YasodaDecember 3, 2005 P.S. I hope my links are still there.
I've edited a section and renamed as "Different Vaisnava Religions", I think is self explanatory, but if anyone has dobuts are free to ask and I can extend this explanation more or add new links if needed
--Narendra dasa Nov 15 2005
I'm sorry for only remove sections of this article without explanation, I'm in the process to learn how wikipedia works, I've remove child abuse section because in this iskcon are shown as a sect like moon or something, please see both sides of the case, 1) iskcon has been drop out all people involved on child abuse, 2) this child abuse has been take placed more than 10 years ago, and now exist an office to evite this will happen again http://www.childrenofkrishna.com 3) I can see this child abuse old histories are used only as an campaing against our religion and with the only one objetive to made rich a lawyer head, do you known lawyer head ask iskcon to pay 400 millions? http://www.religioustolerance.org/hare.htm , also the other side of iskcon can be viewed at www.ffl.org the biggest vegetarian food relief organizacion, The real thing about the persecution of iskcon devotees can be viewed at http://www.hkussr.com/hkussr/hkdoc01sec1p1.htm and http://www.hkussr.com/hkussr/HKdoc02p1.htm Persecution and psychiatric abuse of hare krishna's devotees in the urss. So my intention is to show the real thing only. --Narendra dasa Nov 15 2005
The article previously claimed that as in Catholic last rites, Hare Krishnas believe that the maha-mantra will liberate one's soul at the point of the death. That was an oversimplification of the held belief. The original statement was not well-phrased, though well-meant. To clarify this, that sentence has been edited.
Moreover, the overview was slightly expanded for the purposes of clarification.
--Madhuha Dasa, 15 Oct 2005
I have deleted the link for "Spiritual Realization Institute" because the Institute, although advocating Krishna consciousness, is not connected with the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (the subject of this article) and the site offers no content directly pertaining to the Society. Krishna Dasa, 16 Oct 2004
ISKCON comes from the sect Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Andries 31 Jan 2004
Hello User 129.127.46.214,
Why did u remove this information about Prabhupada's successor's. Don't remove but improve and correct. Otherwise you commit unconstructive behavior. At least write on the discussion page why you removed that phrase. I will put this message both on your user page as well as on the ISKCON talk page. Thanks in advance. Andries 19:12, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
From now on I will revert any change that I don't understand that has been implemented without any explanation on the talk page. There are too many strange deletions and edits of this article. If you remove content then please explain why. I think I know the reason though. Please improve and correct. Don't just remove.
Andries 20:55, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Changes I've implemented: it said that ISKCON revived the Chaitanya movement in India whereas the Chaitanya movement has had a strong and continuous following in East India for more than four centuries, with groups not even associated with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Secondly, 'leaving this material world' is not appropriate phraseology for his death in an article that claims to be NPOV. That also goes for the proselytizing bit at the very end, which talked about how it, unlike other vedas sects, wishes to convert without regard for faith and to spread love of God. Clearly biased, as 1) it backhands other Hindu sects for not trying to spread the word, 2) is redundant since proselytizing is innately about converting and thus not concerned with the other person's faith and 3) brings in bias about whether God's love can be spread, since many may not believe in God or ISKCON's methodology of accessing 'God.' -- LordSuryaofShropshire 07:50, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)
As of today, this article appears still to be biased, rather more like promotional material for the organization. Also, Krishna, Vishnu and Shiva are all supposed to be Avatars of Brahman, so claiming that is it a distinguishing principle for this group to assert the "non-difference" of Krishna from the supreme godhead is deceptive, since all Hindus believe that already. I don't want to touch it, though, because my knowledge of the organization and Hindu mythology is limited. glasperlenspiel 01:46, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)
Well, it gives information about ISKCON and its beliefs, as it is supposed to as a page in Wikipedia encyclopedia. I believe the bias on balance is more tilted against the organisation than for it, although perhaps someone could include info about some allegations of child abuse and how (well or badly) they dealt with it. By the way I am a hindu, though not a Hare Krishna devotee but sometimes attend their meetings. Nondualist
I have removed the half of the mantra because I had never heard of it. (I know quite a lot about ISKCON). And besides I couldn't find it on the ISKCON website.
Andries 08:50, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I put NPOV on this because it is clearly written by Krsna devotees. I'm not knocking on ISKCON, but the article has to be written for a general audience. Currently, there are many references without citations, and the much of the article sounds like a defense of ISKCON instead of a nuetral, balanced discussion. Metta, Defenestrate
I copyedited the article, and recast everything into encyclopaedic language. For me, this means
I also chucked a bunch of crime/sex abuse babble, and moved the list of ideological controversies under the heading it seemed to fit under.
Please note that I am disinterested in the subject. I've had some great food at a few temples in my time, but I don't have a very strong opinion about ISKCON because I'm Buddhist. I just want the facts here, no evangelism. -- Defenestrate 00:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello Defenestrate - I agree with your above points, and will go through the edits in detail incase I can see anything which appears incorrect from my perspective, and it can be discussed. I've been involved with Iskcon for over 10 years and have also read much external scholarly input on the movement. I can see you motivation is to improve the article. I strongly feel that the philosopy of Iskcon should be presented on this page as first and foremost Iskcon is a philosophical 'religious' movement, but it should be in a scholarly, 'neutral' way where possible, I agree. Best wishes, GourangaUK 20:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
We're moving forward. I think the article is neutral in that it doesn't put anyone in an overly harsh or overly critical light. But it's not a well-structured explanation of ISKCON, and the links section is ridiculously long for an article of this size.
One suggestion might be to separate out the different topics into multiple articles or sections:
Again, I really think we should get rid of about half the links. The whole "official"/"unofficial" tag doesn't belong here, either.
-- Defenestrate 18:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The views expressed for reversal of Mahamantra have only anecdotal evidences, and are mainly upheld by some of the followers of other Gaudiya movements. This is not central to the beliefs of ISKCON, and can be best removed from the text alltogether, if no references are provided to substantiate the views. I too added one such view, which also can be deleted.
-- Tharikrish 15:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The reason given for Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's inversion of the mantra is that he wanted to spread it to all the fallen souls of the current Kali Yuga, regardless of qualification. Since there were injunctions that the Vedic mantras (including those in Upanishads) are not to be chanted publicly or by members of the lower castes, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu reversed the two halves so as not to offend the orthodox Brahmins, claiming it to be equally potent either way, and in the altered form it could be freely distributed and chanted in public. He then began his mission to spread this mantra publically to 'every town and village' in the world, travelling extensively throughout India, distributing the Maha-Mantra.
I will endeavour to check the above statement for rejection/acceptance by an Iskcon authority (i.e an ACBSP reference). None seem to be apparent from an initial search in the Vedabase. GourangaUK 17:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This is shown under the major sub-heading "Points of philosophical contention". Contention generally means "a point asserted as part of an argument". I have seen some references to the four regulative principles in certain publications saying that vegetarianism is unhealthy and that of some vegan groups maintaining that this is not true vegetarianism. Otherwise there is no argument among any of the Vedic/Vedanata/Hindu/traditional Indian or even Gaudiya groups where the four regulative principles are involved. Therefore this section can be moved up under a main sub-heading. Kindly check on this aspect. - Tharikrish 09:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello Tharikrish - I believe a small number of people thought this to be controvestial because some other Vaishnava groups do not insist on such rules being followed in order to take initiation. However I see no problems with it being seperated in it's own section. It's not really all that controversial in my opinion. GourangaUK 12:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf during his physical presence, without the need for any physical involvement from Prabhupada. In this way, while Prabhupada was physically present, he could continue to initiate new disciples and remain the initiating guru of the movement."
Nowhere in the directive that set up the ritvik system itself does it state that it must run "during Prabhupada's physical presence". This is a baseless assumption. Therefore the above two sentences should say:
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf, without the need for any physical involvement from Prabhupada. In this way, Prabhupada could continue to initiate new disciples and remain the initiating guru of the movement."
So my question is, why does it keep getting changed back? An encyclopedia is meant to give FACTS. Since you cannot back up the sentiment that the ritvik system was meant to run until Prabhupada's physical departure, stating this is WRONG. Plain and simple. Whether or not "most people agree" that the ritvik system was meant to be disbanded has nothing to do with the fact that such a statement is not found in the letter dated July 9th, 1977, which was the directive setting up the ritvik system. If most people agree that 2+2=17 that doesn't make it a fact. Most people can agree on all sorts of nonsense. The fact is that the July 9th, 1977 directive makes no mention of the ritvik system running only until Prabhupada's physical departure. Therefore please rectify your encyclopedia entry. Thank you.
^^^
Prabhu, I am not herein arguing anything beyond the "system of initiation employing ritviks" of which "Prabhupada set up" that is mentioned in the above quotation. The directive that set up that system makes no mention in regard to Srila Prabhupada being physically present on this earth. Therefore stating that Srila Prabhupada set up a ritvik system to run while he was present is baseless. To be neutral, the statement should exclude this biased sentiment. It should simply state that Srila Prabhupada set up a ritvik system before his departure and some believe that it is meant to continue after his departure. To include that it was meant only for his presence is biased. That would be like someone writing the entry for the holocaust and making a statement or implication that the holocaust never happened.
By the way, I am having difficulty with that link. It may just be the computer I am using. I will try elsewhere another time.
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf during his physical presence, without the need for any physical involvement from Prabhupada. In this way, while Prabhupada was physically present, he could continue to initiate new disciples and remain the initiating guru of the movement. Based on most of Prabhupada's statements in letters, most agree that it was right that the system stopped upon Prabhupada's passing. Indeed, the proxy-initiation ritvik system was disbanded in 1977, on the basis of Prabhupada's instructions in letters and tapes."
"A minority, namely the ISKCON Revival Movement, say it was a permanent order meant to continue even after Prabhupada died. More information about the proxy-initiation ritvik position is offered in "The Final Order," the main position paper of the IRM."
I'm at a loss as to what to more to say on this one? Hare Krishna, ys, GourangaUK 13:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
You said:
"It DOES mention that it was set up while Srila Prabhupada was still physically present"
Yes. It says this in the very first part:
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation"
But the discrepancy is not with this first part. The discrepancy is with what it says right after that:
"employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf during his physical presence" (emphasis added)
Notice how the line, "During his physical presence" is completely unfounded. Nowhere in the directive that officially established the rivtik system does it state that the system was to run "during his (Prabhupada's) physical presence". This is not my interpretation of what the July 9th, 1977 directive says. This is the July 9th, 1977 directive AS IT IS. Therefore it would be only logical to omit that line from the sentence.
You refer to Jayadvaita Swami's position papers, but that has nothing to do with this simple, logical point. The directive that officially established the ritvik system says nothing in regard to it running only during Srila Prabhupada's physical presence. I am being very lenient here. I am not saying that you should make this encyclopedia entry reflect the ritvik position. I am simply saying that it should reflect the facts.
The fact is that Srila Prabhupada set up a ritvik system. Period. That is what should be stated. Nothing more. Then, you can write that some people believe this system was meant to stop upon Prabhupada's physical departure and some believe it was meant to continue. Therefore please correct this article so that it reflects the facts. Thank you.
Hare Krishna
How about this - I have removed the two references to physically present.
Passing of knowledge is named
Parampara or disciplic succession. Some Gaudiya Vaisnava's claim that one needs to learn only from Srila Prabhupada and that should be no other gurus. Just before his physical departure, Srila Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf, without the need for any physical involvement from Srila Prabhupada (as, during this time, Srila Prabhupada was very ill). Based on Srila Prabhupada's statements in letters, most agree that it was right that the system stopped upon Prabhupada's passing. Thus, the proxy-initiation ritvik system was disbanded in 1977, on the basis of Prabhupada's instructions in letters and tapes. A minority, named ISKCON Revival Movement, say it was a permanent order meant to continue even after Prabhupada died. More information about the proxy-initiation ritvik position is offered in "The Final Order," the main position paper of the IRM. |
Let me know if you agree. Thanks Dwayne Kirkwood 04:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
So my question is, how come you didn't write, "(as, during this time, Srila Prabhupada was very ill)" in the original entry? All of the sudden it is applicable now? And what is the implication? It sounds like an attempt to rationalize something that is ulterior to the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada set up. Once again, if I am wrong in thinking this, how come you didn't explain that Srila Prabhupada was ill in the original entry? Thank you.
I switched the order in which the Bhagavata Purana and the Bhagavad Gita were mentioned in the very beginning of this article out of respect for the Bhagvatam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.99.134 ( talk) 09:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Under the contents section of the article "The 'Maha Mantra'" it has a link from the word 'Hare' to an article on 'Hari'. In my understanding 'Hare' is the feminine potency of Krishna, and 'Hari' is a masculine name of Krishna, so it seems misinformation? Perhaps an article on 'Hare' could be started and the link set to that instead? This also goes for the "Hare (disambiguation)" page which says that it is the Sanskrit vocative? Maybe I am wrong.
Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 121.72.11.194 ( talk) 21:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
Hello Smeelgova - although I appreciate your adding to the ISKCON article, I genuinely feel that a survey of mainly Christian (and one Jewish) clergy about their opinion of so-called 'cults' is irrelevant in this instance. I say this not because of personal bias (there is significant negative but relevant material in the article), but on the following grounds:
I am not simply reverting your edit for the sake of it, and am happy to discuss the matter further should you so desire. Best Wishes, Gouranga(UK) 17:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
P.S - (as just reminded by the fireworks) Happy New Year for 2007.
In
1993, Rev. Dr.
Richard L. Dowhower conducted a survey of clergy to assess their opinions of cults, entitled
"Clergy and Cults: A Survey". The 53 respondents were from the
Washington, DC area and included 43 Lutheran clergy and seminarians, one Roman Catholic and one Jewish clergyman, and an Evangelical minister. Eighteen percent of those questioned about "The cults I am most concerned about are", gave the answer of "Unification Church, Hare Krishna"
Referenced Citation
(removed from ref formatting to show editors location/citation)
Clergy and Cults: A Survey, The Rev.
Richard L. Dowhower, D. D., Cult Observer, Vol. 11, No. 3 (
1994).
The proposed addition offers precious little relevant factual information. Most of the text concerns the survey itself, and especially the composition of the sample of clergy surveyed. The survey sample is terribly small--53 people out of. . . how many members of the clergy are there in the United States? As far as I can tell, the sample is so small as to be essentially worthless: that is, one can't properly use it to form a broader understanding of the opinion of "the clergy in general" (or even any meaningful subset of the clergy).
The composition of this small sample is odd--43 out of 53 are Lutherans, we've got one Jew, one Evangelical, and one Roman Catholic, and as for the rest we're in the dark. And even if we weren't--what in the world is such an odd sample supposed to represent? What are we supposed to learn?
It's also clear from the original source article that the person who conducted the survey is a partisan, not a sociologist or a neutral poll-taker. And it's also clear that the language in the survey (e.g., "I have had the following personal experiences with destructive cults") is loaded.
With all these exceedingly unprofessional features, how useful is this survey supposed to be?
The content relevant to ISKCON boils down to the fact that about 10 members of the clergy in Washington, D.C., say that Hare Krishna is one of the two cults they're "most concerned about." That's not terribly enlightening, is it?
This material seems unworthy of inclusion in a serious encyclopedia. I suggest we reserve the article for more worthy content.
Cordially,
O Govinda 14:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
These people were in EVERY major American airport in the '70s--my brother and I (chidlren of airline pilot, we traveled a lot) joked about them all the time and knew to avoid them. The airports were literally crawling with the Krishnas, hence the endless jokes about the phenomenon in movies like Airplane! There was even a lawsuit, although I don't remember if the Krishnas or the airports won. Why is there no mention of this--of the lawsuit if nothing else?
64.132.218.4 ( talk) 15:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
This issue needs to be included in any history of ISKCON. The evidence, particularly the evidence that Srila Prabhupada repeatedly brought up the subject justifies its inclusion in this article. Anuttamadasi ( talk) 23:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
kind attention GaurangaUK from Myshriam-Musiris
I do think it is necessary to highlight scandals and controversies of an organization and that too a religious one, under the misguided assumption that it is an intrinsic part of the organization, and in the interest of neutrality (of all things) one should feel compelled to air it.
There is a crude Punjabi proverb: “If you stick a finger up your anus, it’s bound to come off smelling of stool.” The point is: everybody has got a real end, and its smells. But if you think that its something the world at large is waiting with baited breathes to get a whiff of, and that too it its encyclopedia, then you are wrong.
Sir, I have no wish to read of controversies and scandals in a publication that poses as an encyclopedia. Its here I seek relevant information that pertains to the organization, learn what it stands for and hear what it has to say about itself. In other words, I want and am looking for here is clean information. Dirt, I can always get that at other places.
However, if you insist on carrying on, by brute force, I will not stop you. Indeed, I find the entries in the Wikipedia a joke. It seemed obviously swamped with the ill-educated, the unpublished and warped.
If you have anything personal against this organization, I suggest that you create your own blog and air your complaint to your hearts content. Let the Wikipedia be; it’s too good a thing to spoil with petty points of views.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.95.236.82 ( talk) 12:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
Scandals, controversies, in any organization, are caused by inimical persons, misguided individuals, with ulterior motives. The organization is the victim of such vicious attacks. By including such tainted information on the organization, or for that matter on anybody, merely because you have the power to do so, and on grounds of pseudo neutrality, you would be guilty of bearing false witness. That's the bottom line. But, “Thou shall not bear false witness” is the commandment. So, you really don’t want to be inadvertently breaking that commandment--and that too for absolutely no gain! 59.95.202.194 19:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
No, my response to Chopper Dave was not a personal attack, but merely a demonstrative one to prove a point. Even so, I offer my apologies.
As regards the Neutral Point of View clause, I think its being seriously misunderstood. NPOV is not a licence to slander, put out the dirty linen. Rather, NPOV should serve to keep out such trivalries. NPOV would immediately discern such titbits as thinly veiled attack and immediately disallow it.
I do not find the Encyclopaedia Britannica or the other established knowledge banks so forthcoming with bold titles that scream ‘Scandals and Controversies.’ Indeed, such title smacks of naivety and immaturity. It along the lines of, “Hey, what to hear some juicy trivially?” What’s that title doing in an encyclopaedia, you wonder, and steer clear off.
Yes, wikipedia has quantity, but in an encyclopaedia, it has always been the other word that matters. Quality. And in its shadows stands the other key operative word: Restraint. Together they make the golden standard for an encyclopaedia. Sadly the Wikipedia lacks both.
And, that seems to have finally gotten through to the Wikipedia boss. For in today’s newspaper, I read him saying that he is planning to change the model. It’s no longer going to be freely editable. Your changes will be peer-reviewed, and only if it passes, will it be published. Personally, I think its popularity is because it provides a forum for a lot of unsung scholars out there to make their lives a little less drab. Mishriam-musiris 18:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Notes on details of abuse: In the now-repeated revision of my details, there seems to be some pains taken to maintain a relatively unthreatening picture of when abuse occurred (supposedly mainly just "1978-1988", a period that conveniently starts after the founder's death and ends almost 20 years ago), and of who was responsible for uncovering it (even as I write, the article makes it sounds like the gurukula-abuse story was first revealed by ISKCON in its own publication in 1998, whereas in fact it had been reported, though not in as complete detail, by others years previously.)
While that may be a comfortable belief for some admirers of ISKCON, it has the drawback of not being supported by the facts. At the very least, an encyclopedia article should give enough facts for people to come to their own conclusions and dispel any prevailing misconceptions. I am therefore attempting to provide this factual basis by including a sufficiently detailed picture of the time-frame for readers to understand and investigate the unfortunate story of abuse within ISKCON. I am trying to stay concise, only adding a few sentences, but I think it's quite reasonable to state briefly the full time period of the Robin George case (which I've attempted to do, but it's been reverted twice), name the sources cited (which has also been reverted), and mention earlier reports of abuse allegations (which I'm about to do, and would rather not see reverted.) I also plan to delete the "from 1978" summary starting point, since the cases mentioned in the articles do not support the assertion that things were generally fine before then. (Though I will agree that the problems reported in the article don't seem to continue past 1988, so I'll leave in "before 1988".)
If anyone has any objections to this, please state them here, rather than just reverting. Thanks! 130.91.116.49 16:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Folks ,
I am an orthodox vaishnavite, and an admirer of ISKCONs efforts. But foremost , i am an honest human being and hence i do feel that the section abt scandals should remain. It is fact, and admitting it doesnt dramatically reduce ISKCONS stature. Among millions of devoted, elevated souls - to find a few deranged individuals and to report them out is not a disgrace - its honest. So what if someone feels low abt ISKCON because of this section - i would rather someone hate me for who i am than to love me for what i am not.
All that ranting apart, i have been to several ISKCON temples around the world and have seen several posters of all the good work that ISKCON is doing - distributing food in ethiopia etc. i think we should have a section on ISKCONs contributions to world society via such programs. I opine that absence of these programs are more demeaning than the presence of the scandals section.
God bless and protect us all with peace, satisfaction, tolerance and happiness. Upparna 09:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Jayaram Uparna 3 Jul 2007
Besides all the lovely back and forth on a simple issue such as the fact that the entry is very lean on presenting 'criticism' and when it attempts to do so, it either immediately runs to defend it or lets it glide into oblivion, there are some gaps in thoroughness. A good example is the line '...and the remaining four were all expelled from the movement by the Governing Body Commission during turbulent times in the 1980s' where is the bit about that? the reader would want to know about that. It points to the fact that what we are reading is not the whole story. A presentation of facts, such as a discussion, no matter how brief, on what happened after the death of the founder, etc. If we write an entry about a political party, would we write about the critical issues that may have render it asunder? no need to go on gossiping or stating unverifiable facts, just letting the reader know the history of the organization. The article is far too apologetic (no, I am not saying that we launch into scandals, but if there is controversy it should be presented for what it is, the article fails to do that ( Diabulos ( talk) 19:47, 31 August 2009 (UTC))
Should there not be a more specific reference to kirtans as they relate to ISKCON -- importance vis a vis Sri Chaitanya, how often, and different types or instruments, and so on? Is the kirtan not an inseparable part of ISKCON daily life?
Also curious as why no mention of George Harrison or the popularity of "My Sweet Lord", as it references the historical growth and cultural penetration of ISKCON, and demonstrates what is meant by Srila Prabhupada's wide rendering of Sankirtan. Article also seems light on referencing use of public open-house meals and summer festivals.
Would think it not accurate to say they have "restaurants" without specifying the serving of prasadam, or else at the very least say "vegetarian restaurants" so it doesn't read like they own a few BurgerKings.
If no objections or changes made I'll fix a couple of these tomorrow Joevanisland 23:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the problem to me is that the article doesn't seem to inform as to what ISKCON entails to those within it. In other words, the impression I get from this article is not synonomous with the impression I get from observing or experiencing devotees and ISKCON temples, thus it seems ... incomplete. You have history, philosophy, and scandal, but no section in your Contents for activities outside of preaching activities. Or better put, you seem to me to have written about ISKCON more vis a vis belief than practice. I would think (and forgive me for the unavoidable problem that many of you may find it offensive for a non-devotee to "sum-up" your dear Prabhu), having known devotees and been in ISKCON temples, that the nature of Srila Prabhupada's example and message is vaishnavism as practice, not philosophical talk. Is my view here incorrect?
Further, the Sankirtan link is fine for evangelical Sankirtan, but not the overall idea to an outsider of the importance of singing and music to ISKCON. Such would allow a better distinction between ISKCON and other more private activity based practices, such as some Buddhist or Hindu methods of meditation and so on. Perhaps I am mistaken and kirtans are not or are no longer part of daily ISKCON life separate from evangelical activities. It simply always seemed to me that kirtan in all it's forms allows for one to see ISKCON as not sharing other religions' focus on self(ish)-enlightenment but on glorifying God for others to hear, including for oneself to hear. I realize I may be failing to explain myself in this space. I realize also that most of this is solved by the Vaishnav articles, so some of this is discardable as nothing more than my personal idea that ISKCON should have a contained explanation of it's own practices on the idea that it is a specific english language movement not always accurately defined merely through links to general and historical vaisnavism articles.
Lastly, how does one help with an article such as this? How would someone like me write a sentence on prasadam? By virtue of NPOV and being a non-devotee, I would have to write things like believed to be influenced by the person preparing, and so on. Will this cause objections? This must be difficult for devotees, as it must feel sacrilidge for you to write lines that do not state such things as fact. If I can provide any service as to getting around this problem, advise me further and I shall help all I can. Joevanisland 20:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I know that Swami Prabhupada translated the Vedas and other legendary Hindu scriptures. But does ISKON actually perform rituals in the vedic scriptures ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ne0Freedom ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is a statement from ISKCON own source given as a fact? 217.198.224.13 10:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The iskcon faith can be considered an "original" work by wikipedia standards as Hinduism already has an established collection of authentic books. remove iskcon from wikipedia hindu references as per wikipedia standards please and also other faiths claiming to be hindu faiths . please — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.129.133 ( talk) 07:44, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
ISKCON arranges Rath Yatras in India and around the world at different times. These Rath yatras were objected by the Jagganath temple of Puri as being against tradition. [5] Adding a note of the issue in img cap.-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 12:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that a reference to the entire Direction of Management is appropriate rather than just the sections that are currently being followed.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anuttamadasi ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted some changes today based on the following logic:
Hope this clarifies my edits. Best Regards, Gouranga(UK) ( talk) 23:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear Wikidas,
I attempted to begin a discussion, but you appeared to ignore the above points? In your recent edits you have, amongst some good edits I must add, also :
As much as I appreciate your beneficial changes and agree with keeping some of the recent citations I will have to revert the other changes. Unless you can explain good reasons for the above? As a general note, I have found it is often very helpful to discuss things on the talk page before making several changes of this type to articles which involve a lot of general activity.
Best Regards, Gouranga(UK) ( talk) 19:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Re: GourangaUK points 1-6
If you narrow your point to the above 6 points I think we can arrive to an agreement. It however requires some consideration.
Wikidās 21:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Category:Vaishnavism is an important category and should not be removed Wikidās ॐ 07:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It should then be in Vaisnavism. It makes not sense to put ISKCON in the category ISKCON for navigational reasons. Wikidās ॐ 17:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
We are discussing two different things, articles and categories. The article ISKCON goes in the Category ISKCON. The category ISKCON is a Sub-category of the Category Vaishnavism.-- Editor2020 ( talk) 18:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Three references where moved from LEAD to section on internal problems, [8] I wonder how come external criticism belongs to internal problems of the group ?-- talk-to-me! ( talk) 13:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Cult free world add very biased sources, no meet WP:Verfiability and WP:Reliability. Rick Ross is anti-cult activist -- not neutral source. Freedomofmind is blog, anti-cult POV. CESNUR site no say is cult, say is sect, and say yoga is sect too. Did User:Cult free world read article? User:Cult free world do original research. Please give 3rd party sources. No add bad sources. Thank you very much. 123.242.230.164 ( talk) 16:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
While they are controversial, they are also considered leaders and in the field and they are used as citations all over wikipedia.
Anyway they aren't being cited as experts. All the text says is that ISKON has been discussed within the anti-cult movement. Here are two examples.
Reverting the removal of the text. Sethie ( talk) 03:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Please note that original references were added by Cult_free_world who has history of similar actions [10]. NPOV should be addressed in this case by providing alternative readings.
The oldest scriptures of Classic Indian Culture are the four (or three) Vedas, the oldest of them being the Rg-Veda the oldest core of which is generally dated to some time not before 1800 BC. The Bhagavad Gita is included in one of the two great epics of India, the Mahabharata which is generally dated to the time from 200 BC onwards, the Bhagavatapurana to the 10th century AD. None of the scriptures mentioned in the first part of the article are - considered even the most generous datings - older than 2,500 years.
(cf. Encyclopedia of Hinduism, C.A. Jones, J.D Ryan - Facts on File inc.
Dictionary of Indology, A.K. Roy, N.N Gidwani - Oxford & IBH Publishing Wikipedia Article)
Akimboa23 ( talk) 16:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
This sequence of sentences in the section Issues within the society does not make sense
(OK, good so far)
Eeeh! What is the discourse here? Does "the most genuinely Hindu" imply the interest of "some anti-cult movements"? If then, how? Worst interpretation first: Is the essence of "the most genuinely Hindu" the same as "cultic" per western thinking, or better: does "the most genuinely Hindu" evoke the fear of the presumedly irrational anti-cult movements? Or second (and most benevolent) interpretation does the "the most genuinely Hindu" disprove that ISKCON is "cultic", then the question is a giant How?!
Is this some kind of advert admission that: "OK, then, it was cultic, but isn't anymore"? ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 17:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I think there is a serious issue with neutrality. I knew nothing of ISKCON before reading this article, but it is clear that all objective statements have been drowned out by believers. The cult criticism (as mentioned above) is clear example of this. The discussion page, likewise, constantly devolves into a discussion of tenants of the religion. I have nothing against the faith. I would just like some bias to be curtailed in the interest of factual discussion. It is clear the primary authors and editors are not disinterested parties. Grant ( bork²) 4:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.110.139.53 ( talk)
This article needs to be factually written. Saying that the Direction of Management was a "letter" when in fact it is legal witnessed document is untrue. In addition quoting the parts that are being followed and then deleting any reference to the parts that are currently being ignored by the GBC is untruthful.
Regarding Srila Prabhupada's appointment of the "eleven", the July 9th letter clearly names them as "ritviks." That is truthful. After his passing the eleven became "Zonal Acaryas" by appointing themselves to that post. That is truthful.
Anuttamadasi ( talk) 23:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Srila Prabhupada created the DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT, which was signed, witnessed and notarized. This document created the GBC, and gave the EXACT DIRECTION AS TO HOW THE GBC SHOULD ACT ...Importanly, the GBC was to be ELECTED FROM THE BODY OF TEMPLE PRESIDENTS. The Temple presidents were instructed to hold elections every three years, and either re-elect existing GBC members, or elect new ones from a ballot of candidates chosen from the body of Temple Presidents.
Srila Prabhupada also wrote several letters stating that the temple presidents were to be elected by vote by the congregations of the individual temples, and that the GBC would have practically no AUTHORITY over the individual temples.
The devotees who live in ISKCON temples should be educated so that they understand the full extent of their constitutional powers. By the constitution of the ISKCON temple corporations, the members have the legal right to elect a new leadership. This is a little-known fact, but it is a law.
They also have the right to vote to impeach that leadership if they lose their qualification as leaders. Legally, they have voted to accept the appointed leaders by failing to vote them out. That is, unless the members assert their right to vote it is assumed they wish to follow the appointed system.
Because the GBC assumed dictatorial powers NOT PROVIDED in the DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT, they were in a position to "cover up" crimes committed by each other, and to terrorize the temple presidents by threatening to "kick them out" for insubordination. Since they were not authorized to do either of the above, we can see that their pattern of abuse followed the typical pattern of abuse in "rogue states" and other dictatorships and oligarchies that ARE NOT ANSWERABLE TO THE PUBLIC. It would have been almost impossible for the molestations of the children in the Gurukulas to have taken place if Srila Prabhupada's DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT had been followed.
The only thing that can be said in our (congregational member's) favour is that the GBC VERY CAREFULLY HID THE TEXT OF THE DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT UNTIL THE 1990'S. (Over twenty years!) So that NO CONGREGATIONAL MEMBER OF ISKCON REALIZED TO WHAT DEGREE THEY WERE (AND SITLL ARE) BEING RIPPED OFF!
The devotees should assert their rights under the law, at least in the United States, and immediately hold elections to force the GBC to resign as managers and trustees of all ISKCON properties. This is the only chance to save Srila Prabhupada's legacy from total destruction. If after the prosecution and defense presentations in the court, where all the details of the GBCs' intransigence will become public knowledge, the jury finds the defendants culpable, and if they did not resign when the case first began, this arrogant attitude will influence the judge and jury to increase the penalty.
Urdhvaga das —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.116.175.87 ( talk) 00:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I invite editors to formulate a statement of consensus on the position of Hinduism in relation to ISKCON. At one occasion the founder said it was not Hinduism but Krishnaism. On the other hand there are prominent scholars who define Hinduism differently. Flood, G. "Hare Krishna: Hinduism, Vaisnavism, and ISKCON: Authentic Traditions or Scholarly Constructions?". www.icsahome.com. Retrieved 2009-04-20.. Your views are welcomed backed by reliable sources that not biased. Do not just pile up primary sources here, it has to be WP:SECONDARY or at least from a Tertiary source. It appears the most acceptable to all definition of Hinduism is Sanatan Dharma, it appears ISKCON supports this definition. ( "Hinduism". www.iskcon.org.uk.), ( "ISKCON Scholar Greets Pope on Behalf Of US Hindus". news.iskcon.com.). I suggest the above links are added to the links section of the article. Wikidās ॐ 09:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
This is good discussion, I think the same would apply to swaminarayan, sai baba, etc. All new "sects" that claim Hindu scriptures in their belief system but otherwise do not propagate Hindu values. Arya Samaj and other groups have tried previously to rid Hinduism of these practices. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.72.45 ( talk) 06:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
International Society for Krishna Consciousness is better known as ISKCON in abbreviation. It is more popular and common name thus proposed a move, unless serious objection is mounted. Wikid as© 19:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I apologize, in reverting the move I called it "undiscussed", but I see it has indeed been discussed here. I still see nothing in the above that would present a good rationale, let alone a consensus, for the move. It is undisputed that ISKCON is popularly known as "the Hare Krishnas", which is why this article has had a disambiguating hatnote pointing to ISKCON for years. -- dab (𒁳) 12:15, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
"Bhavananda Das" (or Charles Bacis) redirect here - yet there is no mention of him. Maybe there should be something under 'controversy'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.145.210.235 ( talk) 00:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
It is a notable logo, and is actually being used by many centres (British). So called "new logo" did not really take off and is copyrighted/licensed in a way that does not allow reproduction in Wikipedia. So the original historical logo is to be displayed. This is not business directory and there is no need to have the "current" logo displayed. The original logo has some meaning (which newer one does not have it seems) and it was designed by the founder of the organization, which makes it more important, notable and interesting for the purposes of the encyclopedia WP:ENCYCLOPEDIA. It is not a business directory WP:NOT, nor does it have to have the latest logo displayed, thus removal of historical logo shall be treated as disruptive and a vandalism. Wikid as© 21:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
![]() |
Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on International Society for Krishna Consciousness/Archive 1 and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here. |
Opinion: There has been substantial debate over the question of whether prior logos of organizations can be used here at all, but there seems to be substantial agreement that if they can be used, the fair-use guidelines do not support the use of a prior logo merely because it is of interest simply as a prior logo. There must be some discussion in the text of the article about the logo (other than a mere mention that the organization had a prior logo, but changed it) or which the logo serves to illustrate in a necessary way. Without such discussion, inclusion fails to satisfy #8 of the non-free content criteria: "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." In this case there is no issue or discussion in the text for which the prior logo is a necessary illustration and the logo should not be included in the article (or on this talk page, thus I have removed it). |
What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.— TRANSPORTERMAN ( TALK) 15:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
This whole article is NPOV propaganda. Issues---even serious crimes---are glossed over. Esoteric cult issues are given fawning attention. Someone besides shaven-headed traveller-annoyers needs to rewrite this.
Not even a single mention that---for decades---the face of Hare Krishna seen by most was a persistently annoying beggar in an airport, pestering people to buy religous tracts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.180.83 ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 11 June 2011
Sanitized and only getting worse. This "article" is a joke. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
198.135.125.153 (
talk)
21:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Under the heading 'Influential leaders since 1977': the sentence regarding Ramesvara, Bhagavan das and Harikesa: none of these three are mentioned in the reference supplied. No mention is made of expulsion of members by the GBC. This is an article about the GBC and various controversies within ISKCON, and it may well be worthwhile to include in this article somewhere, but it does not belong at the end of that sentence, and that sentence is otherwise unsourced and contentious. Elizium23 ( talk) 18:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 05:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
International Society for Krishna Consciousness → Hare Krishna movement – I don't want to be acussed of WP:OR here, but I'm pretty confident that very few people refer to these folks as the "International Society for Krishna Consciousness". I think there's a pretty strong WP:COMMONNAME argument here to have this page moved. NickCT ( talk) 12:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article.
The term most typically used in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name. Other encyclopedias may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register as well as what name is most frequently used.
Why are you checking the books for the last 20 years only? ISKCON has been around since 1966. Before 1966 the term "Hare Krishna movement" was not used at all. Properly constructed Gogglebooks search yields following results:
Google News search:
I didn't include search results for "Hare Krishna" because the term is also used to refer to Hare Krishna mantra Gaura79 ( talk) 10:19, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
The diet describes a no meat, fish, or eggs. Immediately afterwards it has a link to ovo-vegetarianism (which would include eggs). I'd fix it, but I do not know which of these mutually exclusive items to change. 71.110.67.231 ( talk) 03:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
This article has serious NPOV issues and should be flagged as such. 50.133.160.189 ( talk) 16:18, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
True still as if 2018. No mention of rape, murders, pedofilia or worse. Zezen ( talk) 08:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Can we add a redirect from /wiki/ISCKON
Why HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami redirects to this page? It makes not sense, as he's not even mentioned in the article. There should be a separate article dedicated to him; it should not redirect here. -- Iamrcr ( talk) 19:11, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I'd like to mention that the article misses out a lot of information regarding ISKCON's belief in creationism and their rejection of Darwinian evolution, the Big Bang theory from physical cosmology, and a host of other manifestly pseudo-scientific and incorrect information that is spread through their schooling and education system.
A number of academics have already published about this phenomenon in the larger debate about modern attitudes towards science in Hindu social circles. Material for the same can definitely be procured. I'd like to know your opinions about the same.
P2C2E ( talk) 02:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
We need to say who has authorized them per "ISKCON is an authorized branch" Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks like a lot of ISKCON supporters are trying to remove the litigation section under one pretext or the other. Do not try to misrepresent information. Espectially to User:Cinosaur
I do not see how it is violating any wikipedia policies. Neither is the section poorly sourced. It is much better sourced than the rest of the article, which has NPOV issues, as mentioned on the talk page. Do not edit that section again, if you a have a problem with it, please sign up for dispute resolution. And it does not follow the Internal Problems section, either logically, or chronologically. KatieRoses ( talk) 11:44, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
This section is informative, but the tone seems more essay-like than encyclopaedic. I think there's a difference between essay tone and encyclopaedia tone. What do others think? Does the section need some mild reshaping?
Regards to all, Notreallydavid ( talk) 23:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Ps. I think the section needs some more references.
In suriname there is a debtie movement. They are similar to Hare Krishna and brhamacharya ( tweede rijweg). To be a follower you have to video tape your family and you have to take on a lot of debt and then you sell your babies to other people for money. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.157.227 ( talk) 23:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
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Hi Arghya1999, I appreciate your efforts to expand the list of prohibited foodstuffs but I think it might be better for clarity to keep this simple, more along the lines of ISKCON's official propaganda. Otherwise we could add gelatine (as in jelly), rennet (in cheese), red lentils (aka masoor dhal), leeks, cochineal (red food dye), edible bone filler in tablets, gelatin again (as in medicinal capsules) – the list goes on and on, if you see my point! So, I hope you don't mind if I revert your edit :-) Samsbanned ( talk) 01:45, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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Hi, I am surprised there isn't more information about if Hare Krishna is considered a religion, sect or cult, showing the arguments either way. I got the impression from sociology class, which was a while ago for me, that there is academic discussion of this matter. Also, in the UK at least, I think it is commonly assumed that Hare Krishna is a cult. I have no particular opinion on that myself, but would like to see a summary of that on this page, as it's not really mentioned much. I came to the page looking for some information about that during a discussion about this issue between friends. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.11.86 ( talk) 21:25, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Within ISKCON, "... men advance spiritually through celibacy and nonattachment; women advance through motherhood and devotion to their husbands in the tradition of stridharma, the wifely duty of submission to the husband and the bearing of sons".[48] Due to this ideology of men needing celibacy in order to be spiritual, sex is something that is not highly discussed within the community. Also, the fact that nonattachment is something that leads to spiritual growth as a man, the men have little attachment for the women in their life. Additionally, men are encouraged to keep women at arms length due to the effect it could have on their gender in their next life.
"Also, the fact that nonattachment is something that leads to spiritual growth as a man, the men have little attachment for the women in their life. " feels redundant- the theme of nonattachment is covered in this section, and the claim that ISKCON men "have little attachment for the women in their life" seems to be maybe what the ideal that men are taught to strive for- but to claim that is how all ISKCON men actually are is an unsubstantiated claim. Hence removed that sentence. Sethie ( talk) 21:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
I recently had to restore the statement that ISKCON is a Hindu movement to the lead of this article. It had been removed on the grounds that, "A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami stated many times that Krishna consciousness is not Hindu". Here are two references that discuss the issue and show that while Prabhupada did try to distinguish between ISKCON and Hinduism, ISKCON later identified itself as a Hindu movement, and adherents who insist otherwise are a minority:
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This article - and associated pages - is not written in accordance with Wikipedia's NPOV policies. It is clear that people who 'follow' the beliefs of the subject of the article have been slanting and maintaining the content thereof in favour of the subject, and nearly all references are, at root, self-published by the organisation or its adherents. As such it probably needs a complete re-write. Undue weight is given to information which is not of encyclopaedic interest but only to followers of ISKC, and such information is especially subject to questions of factual accuracy by many recognised external sources. Articles on WP must always use reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and which are not closely associated with the subject.
Do not remove these tags before the various issues are dealt with. (see: Help:Maintenance template removal). There are five different tags used here because they cover different issues with the article. -- AlisonW ( talk) 12:23, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
For over a year the lead has said: "ISKCON was founded in 1966 in New York City by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who is worshipped by followers as Guru and spiritual master." In most faiths being venerated as a Guru and/or master is entirely different from being worshipped, and in most extant monotheisms it would be heretical to use the term for anything beyond a very specific list (in Catholicism saints are venerated, etc.). So of primary importance: what word do ISKCON members themselves use with regard to their veneration of Prabhupada? Second, what word do scholars use? Both should be cited and posted. SamuelRiv ( talk) 02:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
This article needs a section to talk about Ritvikism and its main ideas. This is needed because a large Ritvik group in India is called ISKCON Bangalore while in fact it's a separate institution from ISKCON. So this can become a source of confusion for people who are new to this subject matter. This section could also talk briefly about the relationship between Narayana Maharaja's Pure Bhakti and ISKCON, and also about Paramadvaiti's Vrinda. -- Iamrcr ( talk) 09:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
There are different groups within the institution trying to push distinct agendas over the subject of women's roles so I request editors to watch and research this section closely enough to ensure that there won't be any bias. Specially it should be highlighted that it's a controversial subject. This section was heavily biased when I found it so I performed some edits. -- Iamrcr ( talk) 09:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Second paragraph, second sentence. Comma preceding "that its leaders" 198.176.81.33 ( talk) 17:38, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Please ping me should there be any issues will be re-introduction of the multiple issues, and other additions I've made to make it clear that certain parts of this article do not meet policy/guidelines. {{u|
waddie96}} {
talk}
19:58, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
A while back I removed a section at the start which was not only meant to inspire prejudice, but also redudant since the same topic is covered later in the article. Chiswick_Chap keeps reverting it back. Please do not. Another editor FreeKnowledgeCreator keeps removing images of ISKCON centers at the bottom for some reason. Please do not. shiva das 20:40, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
That is a subjective opinion. Is there some rule that says you can remove all images if you don't like the number of images? Can you comment on my other complaint? shiva das 03:25, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I disagree with both your points. If we look at an average wiki article on a religious group how many start off with detailing complaints against the group by various antagonists? This is a clear sign of bias, and also the removal of all images as if that is a right of yours also shows bias imho. shiva das 19:29, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
So if I go to the page of any religious group and at the start say "The Society for Hating Religions has called this religion a terrible group of people, please hate them." You are saying that is not only allowed it is normal and no one should question bias when people demand that type of statement to be included at the start of every religious group article. Why not include the opinion of the Skeptic societies like so "As has been proven, God doesn't exist, and therefore all people promoting a religious belief are con artists or wackos trying to steal your money". That is exactly what you are doing and promoting. That is clearly bias. As for images, is there a wikipedia rule on the number of images? shiva das 21:50, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
You know its funny to my religious scholar friends to see how Wikipedia treats religious groups whom editors don't understand or may be biased against, because one of our maxims is "a cult is a religion I don't like." That is a joke to us but we take it seriously since to so many people that is how they view the word cult. Here are some facts of ISKCON not found in this article but which is common knowledge in the Hindu world:
shiva das 22:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
they don't consider themselves Hindu, and most hindu's don't either. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 21:00, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The definition of "Hinduism" has been used for the past few hundred years to describe the religions of South Asian that pay homage to one or more of the various traditions in pursuit of vedic literature and vedic tradition. In the attempt to catalog information, we have to recognize the limitations of these words and catagories. It is not unrealistic that ISKCON devotees could both identify as "Hindu" while also recognizing the limitations of that catagorization, and adding additional catagories to a complex personal identity. Many South Asian traditions use the term "Sanatana Dharma" which roughly translates to "eternal religion." This term acknowledges that the religious traditions now identifying as Hindu, did in fact exist long before the term "Hindu" was introduced as an historical evolution (albiet one that isn't easily dated).
The Caitanya Charitamrta (a Gaudiya Vaishnava hagiography on Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu) is one of the first "Hindu" scriptures to reference the word "Hindu." This scripture was constructed towards the end of the 15th century in Bengal, where Hindus identified their religious tradition in the context of a society ruled by a Muslem establishment. This date of 1500 BCE leaves the vast majority of Gaudiya Vaishnava literary tradition (from the Rig Veda circa 1500 BCE to the Caitanya Charitamrta circa 1500 CE) as predating "Hindu" identification.
The above sequence places the complex identity issue of Gaudiya-Vaishnava/Hindu/Sanatana-Dharma into its larger and more complex historical context.
My point is that these terms should never be so oversimplified as to allude to an either/or identity. JCM 5/24/05
I'd like to contribute to this discussion with the fact that Prabhupada often overtly denied any connection to Hinduism at all: 'The Krsna consciousness movement has nothing to do with the Hindu religion or any system of religion' (The Science of Self-realization, chapter 3). Another time he wrote: 'One should clearly understand that the Krsna consciousness movement is not preaching the so-called Hindu religion.' He could be even stronger in his judgement of Hinduism, calling it 'a dead religion' with 'no philosophy' (72-02-04.VAI) or 'a cheating religion' (731006BG.BOM). The last to references refer to Folio database 'The Complete Works of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada' (n.d.) and the Folio database 'The pre-1965 works of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada', Version 1.0, March 1995. PietjePrecies 15:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
(Sorry - that's just an attention grabber) How about adding some statistics on the number of books published by the movement? There must be some truly remarkable (if not staggering) figures out there that may be of interest. I envision a graph with years on the X axis and thousands (or millions?) of books published on the Y axis...
The edit by user 66._._..... was partly helpful and partly vandalism. If someone has the time his edits should be checked for factual accuracy. freestylefrappe 20:46, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
I hope I did the right thing by posting a Copy Viol notice. At least one section is lifted from [2] (and other sites) verbatim. Paul, in Saudi 28 June 2005 13:15 (UTC)
I would like the person that reversed the revisions in the previous version to explain why they did so, because the changes were NPOV not POV. In fact this version that it was changed to is POV. When both the versions are compared you will see that the changes refer to the following:
1) Prabhupada's death is physical-only and not spiritual. My version pointed this. Thus my version puts forward a view that the challenger did not like. It is a question of whether the vision should become limited or not. A limited vision is POV not NPOV.
2) The new version mentioned that the eleven chosen disciples were given the task of being instructing and NOT initiating gurus.
3) Other groups that follow the ritvik method of initiations were mentioned.
4) The website sources were linked.
5) The new version tells facts and new views as is thus a NPOV however the version we have now is POV because it ignores the new views and their websites sources.
6) The book changes to Prabhupada's books were mentioned and sources for the originals.
-- Volunteer 00:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added the word "physical" in context of death because it is important to clarify for anyone wanting to understand. If we do not put the word "physical" preceding the word "death" or in context elsewhere than this would become POV. We have to put the other view also so that is NPOV and a compromise is through inserting the word "physical."
-- Volunteer 11:12, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
A commentator had, I believe, meant to mention the names of the trinity, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and instead mistakenly used the phonetically similar word Brahman. As noted by another commentator, Brahman is an impersonal aspect of the Supreme Lord, God, and this is taught within the precepts of ISKCON. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are, according to the Srimad Bhagavatam, the creator, maintainer, and destroyer of the universe, respectively. They exist as a "trinity" and although Vishnu, the maintainer of the universe, is a plenary expansion of God, Brahma, and Shiva are demigods, strictly subordinate servitors to God in their positions for the creation and destruction of this universe. And, though Brahma creates the different forms of life after Vishnu creates the actual universe, these forms of life are then impregnated with their souls through an expansion Vishnu, not Brahma. Still, Vishnu is somewhat different from Krishna according to the scriptures provided by Srila Prabhupada. Although eternal, Vishnu exists for the creation and maintainance of the material world. All of the avatars of God, including those which incarnate (i.e., are "born") for a particular purpose, do originate from the body of Vishnu. However, ISKCON members believe that Krishna is the original, eternal form of God and is not an avatar or expansion. He is not an incarnation as avatars are. I am only trying to clarify a little here, as there seems to be so much discussion and speculation as to what we believe on this subject. Still this is a great simplification. I cannot possibly convey the full meaning of all that is written in our scriptures here. ISKCON member, 12/1/05.
The external links section is getting way out of hand. For example, there are nearly 20 links to random ISKCON members. According to the guidelines, Wikipedia is not a link repository. We don't need a link to every member, every pro-ISCON and every anti-ISKCON site. I propose to do some major pruning here. Comments anyone? -- Lee Hunter 20:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
ISKCON:
ISKCON UK:
ISKCON Devotees:
I've gone ahead and made a few changes to the page today and have listed the reasons by each one. But feel it really needs a lot of work still. More detailed descriptions, pictures? Also I see little point in having 3 external links to the same website on the same issue, so have kept it to one per site in each section. People will just skip past them otherwise. My apologies for any offence this may cause. GourangaUK 16:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Just out of curiousity I went back to this page to see if my links were still there. Just as a thought after a couple of hours of putting the links they were gone. Does anyone know who I can complain to in this website? bhaktin Miriam
I have added a few links to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness page a couple of months ago, but I realized that my links were being deleted. So, I added them again and again because they kept being removed. That annoyed me a lot. Then a couple of days ago, I was banned from this site for repeatledly committing vandalism, or at least that is what the message said. That was very scary for me since I have only added links and I have not touched anyone else's contributions.
On Novemeber 15, 2005 Narendra dasa wrote that he removed the child abuse section because he felt that those links were a smeared campaing against the Hare Krishnas. He also mentioned that child abuse in ISKCON (the Hare Krishna institution) is an old story that happened ten years ago.
I implore you, Narendra dasa to please leave that child abuse section alone. Anyone who goes into those links will see for themselves that the child abuse problem in the Hare Krishna Movement is alive and well. It is not a smear campaing.
I myself, have research this topic extensively for the past 5 years and have read numerous reports from ISKCON's Child Protection Office. I have even written several articles concerning this.
You are welcome to take a look at the articles that I have written in the past few months by going to one of the several Hare Krishna websites. My oldest article was published in the internet 5 years ago: http://www.oldchakra.com/articles/2000/08/16/dhanurdhara.swami/ My most recent articles were published in the very popular and acitve ISKCON friendly website, Chakra.org. One such article, written in two parts summarizes the Persistent Child Abuse Problem in the Hare Krishna movement: http://chakra.org/discussions/GurAug01_04.html http://chakra.org/discussions/GurAug02_04.html Other articles that I have written have been published in the Sampradaya Sun website, a very busy daily news site for Hare Krishna devotes. Please take a look at one such article and another one from Pandu dasa:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/editorials1.htm http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/editorials1.htm#9
My purpose is not to smear the Hare Krishna movement, but to bring to light that there are current conroversies and scandals in ISKCON
Yasodabhaktin Miriam YasodaDecember 3, 2005 P.S. I hope my links are still there.
I've edited a section and renamed as "Different Vaisnava Religions", I think is self explanatory, but if anyone has dobuts are free to ask and I can extend this explanation more or add new links if needed
--Narendra dasa Nov 15 2005
I'm sorry for only remove sections of this article without explanation, I'm in the process to learn how wikipedia works, I've remove child abuse section because in this iskcon are shown as a sect like moon or something, please see both sides of the case, 1) iskcon has been drop out all people involved on child abuse, 2) this child abuse has been take placed more than 10 years ago, and now exist an office to evite this will happen again http://www.childrenofkrishna.com 3) I can see this child abuse old histories are used only as an campaing against our religion and with the only one objetive to made rich a lawyer head, do you known lawyer head ask iskcon to pay 400 millions? http://www.religioustolerance.org/hare.htm , also the other side of iskcon can be viewed at www.ffl.org the biggest vegetarian food relief organizacion, The real thing about the persecution of iskcon devotees can be viewed at http://www.hkussr.com/hkussr/hkdoc01sec1p1.htm and http://www.hkussr.com/hkussr/HKdoc02p1.htm Persecution and psychiatric abuse of hare krishna's devotees in the urss. So my intention is to show the real thing only. --Narendra dasa Nov 15 2005
The article previously claimed that as in Catholic last rites, Hare Krishnas believe that the maha-mantra will liberate one's soul at the point of the death. That was an oversimplification of the held belief. The original statement was not well-phrased, though well-meant. To clarify this, that sentence has been edited.
Moreover, the overview was slightly expanded for the purposes of clarification.
--Madhuha Dasa, 15 Oct 2005
I have deleted the link for "Spiritual Realization Institute" because the Institute, although advocating Krishna consciousness, is not connected with the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (the subject of this article) and the site offers no content directly pertaining to the Society. Krishna Dasa, 16 Oct 2004
ISKCON comes from the sect Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Andries 31 Jan 2004
Hello User 129.127.46.214,
Why did u remove this information about Prabhupada's successor's. Don't remove but improve and correct. Otherwise you commit unconstructive behavior. At least write on the discussion page why you removed that phrase. I will put this message both on your user page as well as on the ISKCON talk page. Thanks in advance. Andries 19:12, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
From now on I will revert any change that I don't understand that has been implemented without any explanation on the talk page. There are too many strange deletions and edits of this article. If you remove content then please explain why. I think I know the reason though. Please improve and correct. Don't just remove.
Andries 20:55, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Changes I've implemented: it said that ISKCON revived the Chaitanya movement in India whereas the Chaitanya movement has had a strong and continuous following in East India for more than four centuries, with groups not even associated with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Secondly, 'leaving this material world' is not appropriate phraseology for his death in an article that claims to be NPOV. That also goes for the proselytizing bit at the very end, which talked about how it, unlike other vedas sects, wishes to convert without regard for faith and to spread love of God. Clearly biased, as 1) it backhands other Hindu sects for not trying to spread the word, 2) is redundant since proselytizing is innately about converting and thus not concerned with the other person's faith and 3) brings in bias about whether God's love can be spread, since many may not believe in God or ISKCON's methodology of accessing 'God.' -- LordSuryaofShropshire 07:50, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)
As of today, this article appears still to be biased, rather more like promotional material for the organization. Also, Krishna, Vishnu and Shiva are all supposed to be Avatars of Brahman, so claiming that is it a distinguishing principle for this group to assert the "non-difference" of Krishna from the supreme godhead is deceptive, since all Hindus believe that already. I don't want to touch it, though, because my knowledge of the organization and Hindu mythology is limited. glasperlenspiel 01:46, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)
Well, it gives information about ISKCON and its beliefs, as it is supposed to as a page in Wikipedia encyclopedia. I believe the bias on balance is more tilted against the organisation than for it, although perhaps someone could include info about some allegations of child abuse and how (well or badly) they dealt with it. By the way I am a hindu, though not a Hare Krishna devotee but sometimes attend their meetings. Nondualist
I have removed the half of the mantra because I had never heard of it. (I know quite a lot about ISKCON). And besides I couldn't find it on the ISKCON website.
Andries 08:50, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I put NPOV on this because it is clearly written by Krsna devotees. I'm not knocking on ISKCON, but the article has to be written for a general audience. Currently, there are many references without citations, and the much of the article sounds like a defense of ISKCON instead of a nuetral, balanced discussion. Metta, Defenestrate
I copyedited the article, and recast everything into encyclopaedic language. For me, this means
I also chucked a bunch of crime/sex abuse babble, and moved the list of ideological controversies under the heading it seemed to fit under.
Please note that I am disinterested in the subject. I've had some great food at a few temples in my time, but I don't have a very strong opinion about ISKCON because I'm Buddhist. I just want the facts here, no evangelism. -- Defenestrate 00:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello Defenestrate - I agree with your above points, and will go through the edits in detail incase I can see anything which appears incorrect from my perspective, and it can be discussed. I've been involved with Iskcon for over 10 years and have also read much external scholarly input on the movement. I can see you motivation is to improve the article. I strongly feel that the philosopy of Iskcon should be presented on this page as first and foremost Iskcon is a philosophical 'religious' movement, but it should be in a scholarly, 'neutral' way where possible, I agree. Best wishes, GourangaUK 20:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
We're moving forward. I think the article is neutral in that it doesn't put anyone in an overly harsh or overly critical light. But it's not a well-structured explanation of ISKCON, and the links section is ridiculously long for an article of this size.
One suggestion might be to separate out the different topics into multiple articles or sections:
Again, I really think we should get rid of about half the links. The whole "official"/"unofficial" tag doesn't belong here, either.
-- Defenestrate 18:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The views expressed for reversal of Mahamantra have only anecdotal evidences, and are mainly upheld by some of the followers of other Gaudiya movements. This is not central to the beliefs of ISKCON, and can be best removed from the text alltogether, if no references are provided to substantiate the views. I too added one such view, which also can be deleted.
-- Tharikrish 15:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The reason given for Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's inversion of the mantra is that he wanted to spread it to all the fallen souls of the current Kali Yuga, regardless of qualification. Since there were injunctions that the Vedic mantras (including those in Upanishads) are not to be chanted publicly or by members of the lower castes, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu reversed the two halves so as not to offend the orthodox Brahmins, claiming it to be equally potent either way, and in the altered form it could be freely distributed and chanted in public. He then began his mission to spread this mantra publically to 'every town and village' in the world, travelling extensively throughout India, distributing the Maha-Mantra.
I will endeavour to check the above statement for rejection/acceptance by an Iskcon authority (i.e an ACBSP reference). None seem to be apparent from an initial search in the Vedabase. GourangaUK 17:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This is shown under the major sub-heading "Points of philosophical contention". Contention generally means "a point asserted as part of an argument". I have seen some references to the four regulative principles in certain publications saying that vegetarianism is unhealthy and that of some vegan groups maintaining that this is not true vegetarianism. Otherwise there is no argument among any of the Vedic/Vedanata/Hindu/traditional Indian or even Gaudiya groups where the four regulative principles are involved. Therefore this section can be moved up under a main sub-heading. Kindly check on this aspect. - Tharikrish 09:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello Tharikrish - I believe a small number of people thought this to be controvestial because some other Vaishnava groups do not insist on such rules being followed in order to take initiation. However I see no problems with it being seperated in it's own section. It's not really all that controversial in my opinion. GourangaUK 12:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf during his physical presence, without the need for any physical involvement from Prabhupada. In this way, while Prabhupada was physically present, he could continue to initiate new disciples and remain the initiating guru of the movement."
Nowhere in the directive that set up the ritvik system itself does it state that it must run "during Prabhupada's physical presence". This is a baseless assumption. Therefore the above two sentences should say:
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf, without the need for any physical involvement from Prabhupada. In this way, Prabhupada could continue to initiate new disciples and remain the initiating guru of the movement."
So my question is, why does it keep getting changed back? An encyclopedia is meant to give FACTS. Since you cannot back up the sentiment that the ritvik system was meant to run until Prabhupada's physical departure, stating this is WRONG. Plain and simple. Whether or not "most people agree" that the ritvik system was meant to be disbanded has nothing to do with the fact that such a statement is not found in the letter dated July 9th, 1977, which was the directive setting up the ritvik system. If most people agree that 2+2=17 that doesn't make it a fact. Most people can agree on all sorts of nonsense. The fact is that the July 9th, 1977 directive makes no mention of the ritvik system running only until Prabhupada's physical departure. Therefore please rectify your encyclopedia entry. Thank you.
^^^
Prabhu, I am not herein arguing anything beyond the "system of initiation employing ritviks" of which "Prabhupada set up" that is mentioned in the above quotation. The directive that set up that system makes no mention in regard to Srila Prabhupada being physically present on this earth. Therefore stating that Srila Prabhupada set up a ritvik system to run while he was present is baseless. To be neutral, the statement should exclude this biased sentiment. It should simply state that Srila Prabhupada set up a ritvik system before his departure and some believe that it is meant to continue after his departure. To include that it was meant only for his presence is biased. That would be like someone writing the entry for the holocaust and making a statement or implication that the holocaust never happened.
By the way, I am having difficulty with that link. It may just be the computer I am using. I will try elsewhere another time.
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf during his physical presence, without the need for any physical involvement from Prabhupada. In this way, while Prabhupada was physically present, he could continue to initiate new disciples and remain the initiating guru of the movement. Based on most of Prabhupada's statements in letters, most agree that it was right that the system stopped upon Prabhupada's passing. Indeed, the proxy-initiation ritvik system was disbanded in 1977, on the basis of Prabhupada's instructions in letters and tapes."
"A minority, namely the ISKCON Revival Movement, say it was a permanent order meant to continue even after Prabhupada died. More information about the proxy-initiation ritvik position is offered in "The Final Order," the main position paper of the IRM."
I'm at a loss as to what to more to say on this one? Hare Krishna, ys, GourangaUK 13:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
You said:
"It DOES mention that it was set up while Srila Prabhupada was still physically present"
Yes. It says this in the very first part:
"Just before his physical departure, Prabhupada set up a system of initiation"
But the discrepancy is not with this first part. The discrepancy is with what it says right after that:
"employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf during his physical presence" (emphasis added)
Notice how the line, "During his physical presence" is completely unfounded. Nowhere in the directive that officially established the rivtik system does it state that the system was to run "during his (Prabhupada's) physical presence". This is not my interpretation of what the July 9th, 1977 directive says. This is the July 9th, 1977 directive AS IT IS. Therefore it would be only logical to omit that line from the sentence.
You refer to Jayadvaita Swami's position papers, but that has nothing to do with this simple, logical point. The directive that officially established the ritvik system says nothing in regard to it running only during Srila Prabhupada's physical presence. I am being very lenient here. I am not saying that you should make this encyclopedia entry reflect the ritvik position. I am simply saying that it should reflect the facts.
The fact is that Srila Prabhupada set up a ritvik system. Period. That is what should be stated. Nothing more. Then, you can write that some people believe this system was meant to stop upon Prabhupada's physical departure and some believe it was meant to continue. Therefore please correct this article so that it reflects the facts. Thank you.
Hare Krishna
How about this - I have removed the two references to physically present.
Passing of knowledge is named
Parampara or disciplic succession. Some Gaudiya Vaisnava's claim that one needs to learn only from Srila Prabhupada and that should be no other gurus. Just before his physical departure, Srila Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of ritviks (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf, without the need for any physical involvement from Srila Prabhupada (as, during this time, Srila Prabhupada was very ill). Based on Srila Prabhupada's statements in letters, most agree that it was right that the system stopped upon Prabhupada's passing. Thus, the proxy-initiation ritvik system was disbanded in 1977, on the basis of Prabhupada's instructions in letters and tapes. A minority, named ISKCON Revival Movement, say it was a permanent order meant to continue even after Prabhupada died. More information about the proxy-initiation ritvik position is offered in "The Final Order," the main position paper of the IRM. |
Let me know if you agree. Thanks Dwayne Kirkwood 04:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
So my question is, how come you didn't write, "(as, during this time, Srila Prabhupada was very ill)" in the original entry? All of the sudden it is applicable now? And what is the implication? It sounds like an attempt to rationalize something that is ulterior to the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada set up. Once again, if I am wrong in thinking this, how come you didn't explain that Srila Prabhupada was ill in the original entry? Thank you.
I switched the order in which the Bhagavata Purana and the Bhagavad Gita were mentioned in the very beginning of this article out of respect for the Bhagvatam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.99.134 ( talk) 09:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Under the contents section of the article "The 'Maha Mantra'" it has a link from the word 'Hare' to an article on 'Hari'. In my understanding 'Hare' is the feminine potency of Krishna, and 'Hari' is a masculine name of Krishna, so it seems misinformation? Perhaps an article on 'Hare' could be started and the link set to that instead? This also goes for the "Hare (disambiguation)" page which says that it is the Sanskrit vocative? Maybe I am wrong.
Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 121.72.11.194 ( talk) 21:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC).
Hello Smeelgova - although I appreciate your adding to the ISKCON article, I genuinely feel that a survey of mainly Christian (and one Jewish) clergy about their opinion of so-called 'cults' is irrelevant in this instance. I say this not because of personal bias (there is significant negative but relevant material in the article), but on the following grounds:
I am not simply reverting your edit for the sake of it, and am happy to discuss the matter further should you so desire. Best Wishes, Gouranga(UK) 17:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
P.S - (as just reminded by the fireworks) Happy New Year for 2007.
In
1993, Rev. Dr.
Richard L. Dowhower conducted a survey of clergy to assess their opinions of cults, entitled
"Clergy and Cults: A Survey". The 53 respondents were from the
Washington, DC area and included 43 Lutheran clergy and seminarians, one Roman Catholic and one Jewish clergyman, and an Evangelical minister. Eighteen percent of those questioned about "The cults I am most concerned about are", gave the answer of "Unification Church, Hare Krishna"
Referenced Citation
(removed from ref formatting to show editors location/citation)
Clergy and Cults: A Survey, The Rev.
Richard L. Dowhower, D. D., Cult Observer, Vol. 11, No. 3 (
1994).
The proposed addition offers precious little relevant factual information. Most of the text concerns the survey itself, and especially the composition of the sample of clergy surveyed. The survey sample is terribly small--53 people out of. . . how many members of the clergy are there in the United States? As far as I can tell, the sample is so small as to be essentially worthless: that is, one can't properly use it to form a broader understanding of the opinion of "the clergy in general" (or even any meaningful subset of the clergy).
The composition of this small sample is odd--43 out of 53 are Lutherans, we've got one Jew, one Evangelical, and one Roman Catholic, and as for the rest we're in the dark. And even if we weren't--what in the world is such an odd sample supposed to represent? What are we supposed to learn?
It's also clear from the original source article that the person who conducted the survey is a partisan, not a sociologist or a neutral poll-taker. And it's also clear that the language in the survey (e.g., "I have had the following personal experiences with destructive cults") is loaded.
With all these exceedingly unprofessional features, how useful is this survey supposed to be?
The content relevant to ISKCON boils down to the fact that about 10 members of the clergy in Washington, D.C., say that Hare Krishna is one of the two cults they're "most concerned about." That's not terribly enlightening, is it?
This material seems unworthy of inclusion in a serious encyclopedia. I suggest we reserve the article for more worthy content.
Cordially,
O Govinda 14:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
These people were in EVERY major American airport in the '70s--my brother and I (chidlren of airline pilot, we traveled a lot) joked about them all the time and knew to avoid them. The airports were literally crawling with the Krishnas, hence the endless jokes about the phenomenon in movies like Airplane! There was even a lawsuit, although I don't remember if the Krishnas or the airports won. Why is there no mention of this--of the lawsuit if nothing else?
64.132.218.4 ( talk) 15:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
This issue needs to be included in any history of ISKCON. The evidence, particularly the evidence that Srila Prabhupada repeatedly brought up the subject justifies its inclusion in this article. Anuttamadasi ( talk) 23:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
kind attention GaurangaUK from Myshriam-Musiris
I do think it is necessary to highlight scandals and controversies of an organization and that too a religious one, under the misguided assumption that it is an intrinsic part of the organization, and in the interest of neutrality (of all things) one should feel compelled to air it.
There is a crude Punjabi proverb: “If you stick a finger up your anus, it’s bound to come off smelling of stool.” The point is: everybody has got a real end, and its smells. But if you think that its something the world at large is waiting with baited breathes to get a whiff of, and that too it its encyclopedia, then you are wrong.
Sir, I have no wish to read of controversies and scandals in a publication that poses as an encyclopedia. Its here I seek relevant information that pertains to the organization, learn what it stands for and hear what it has to say about itself. In other words, I want and am looking for here is clean information. Dirt, I can always get that at other places.
However, if you insist on carrying on, by brute force, I will not stop you. Indeed, I find the entries in the Wikipedia a joke. It seemed obviously swamped with the ill-educated, the unpublished and warped.
If you have anything personal against this organization, I suggest that you create your own blog and air your complaint to your hearts content. Let the Wikipedia be; it’s too good a thing to spoil with petty points of views.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.95.236.82 ( talk) 12:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
Scandals, controversies, in any organization, are caused by inimical persons, misguided individuals, with ulterior motives. The organization is the victim of such vicious attacks. By including such tainted information on the organization, or for that matter on anybody, merely because you have the power to do so, and on grounds of pseudo neutrality, you would be guilty of bearing false witness. That's the bottom line. But, “Thou shall not bear false witness” is the commandment. So, you really don’t want to be inadvertently breaking that commandment--and that too for absolutely no gain! 59.95.202.194 19:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
No, my response to Chopper Dave was not a personal attack, but merely a demonstrative one to prove a point. Even so, I offer my apologies.
As regards the Neutral Point of View clause, I think its being seriously misunderstood. NPOV is not a licence to slander, put out the dirty linen. Rather, NPOV should serve to keep out such trivalries. NPOV would immediately discern such titbits as thinly veiled attack and immediately disallow it.
I do not find the Encyclopaedia Britannica or the other established knowledge banks so forthcoming with bold titles that scream ‘Scandals and Controversies.’ Indeed, such title smacks of naivety and immaturity. It along the lines of, “Hey, what to hear some juicy trivially?” What’s that title doing in an encyclopaedia, you wonder, and steer clear off.
Yes, wikipedia has quantity, but in an encyclopaedia, it has always been the other word that matters. Quality. And in its shadows stands the other key operative word: Restraint. Together they make the golden standard for an encyclopaedia. Sadly the Wikipedia lacks both.
And, that seems to have finally gotten through to the Wikipedia boss. For in today’s newspaper, I read him saying that he is planning to change the model. It’s no longer going to be freely editable. Your changes will be peer-reviewed, and only if it passes, will it be published. Personally, I think its popularity is because it provides a forum for a lot of unsung scholars out there to make their lives a little less drab. Mishriam-musiris 18:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Notes on details of abuse: In the now-repeated revision of my details, there seems to be some pains taken to maintain a relatively unthreatening picture of when abuse occurred (supposedly mainly just "1978-1988", a period that conveniently starts after the founder's death and ends almost 20 years ago), and of who was responsible for uncovering it (even as I write, the article makes it sounds like the gurukula-abuse story was first revealed by ISKCON in its own publication in 1998, whereas in fact it had been reported, though not in as complete detail, by others years previously.)
While that may be a comfortable belief for some admirers of ISKCON, it has the drawback of not being supported by the facts. At the very least, an encyclopedia article should give enough facts for people to come to their own conclusions and dispel any prevailing misconceptions. I am therefore attempting to provide this factual basis by including a sufficiently detailed picture of the time-frame for readers to understand and investigate the unfortunate story of abuse within ISKCON. I am trying to stay concise, only adding a few sentences, but I think it's quite reasonable to state briefly the full time period of the Robin George case (which I've attempted to do, but it's been reverted twice), name the sources cited (which has also been reverted), and mention earlier reports of abuse allegations (which I'm about to do, and would rather not see reverted.) I also plan to delete the "from 1978" summary starting point, since the cases mentioned in the articles do not support the assertion that things were generally fine before then. (Though I will agree that the problems reported in the article don't seem to continue past 1988, so I'll leave in "before 1988".)
If anyone has any objections to this, please state them here, rather than just reverting. Thanks! 130.91.116.49 16:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Folks ,
I am an orthodox vaishnavite, and an admirer of ISKCONs efforts. But foremost , i am an honest human being and hence i do feel that the section abt scandals should remain. It is fact, and admitting it doesnt dramatically reduce ISKCONS stature. Among millions of devoted, elevated souls - to find a few deranged individuals and to report them out is not a disgrace - its honest. So what if someone feels low abt ISKCON because of this section - i would rather someone hate me for who i am than to love me for what i am not.
All that ranting apart, i have been to several ISKCON temples around the world and have seen several posters of all the good work that ISKCON is doing - distributing food in ethiopia etc. i think we should have a section on ISKCONs contributions to world society via such programs. I opine that absence of these programs are more demeaning than the presence of the scandals section.
God bless and protect us all with peace, satisfaction, tolerance and happiness. Upparna 09:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Jayaram Uparna 3 Jul 2007
Besides all the lovely back and forth on a simple issue such as the fact that the entry is very lean on presenting 'criticism' and when it attempts to do so, it either immediately runs to defend it or lets it glide into oblivion, there are some gaps in thoroughness. A good example is the line '...and the remaining four were all expelled from the movement by the Governing Body Commission during turbulent times in the 1980s' where is the bit about that? the reader would want to know about that. It points to the fact that what we are reading is not the whole story. A presentation of facts, such as a discussion, no matter how brief, on what happened after the death of the founder, etc. If we write an entry about a political party, would we write about the critical issues that may have render it asunder? no need to go on gossiping or stating unverifiable facts, just letting the reader know the history of the organization. The article is far too apologetic (no, I am not saying that we launch into scandals, but if there is controversy it should be presented for what it is, the article fails to do that ( Diabulos ( talk) 19:47, 31 August 2009 (UTC))
Should there not be a more specific reference to kirtans as they relate to ISKCON -- importance vis a vis Sri Chaitanya, how often, and different types or instruments, and so on? Is the kirtan not an inseparable part of ISKCON daily life?
Also curious as why no mention of George Harrison or the popularity of "My Sweet Lord", as it references the historical growth and cultural penetration of ISKCON, and demonstrates what is meant by Srila Prabhupada's wide rendering of Sankirtan. Article also seems light on referencing use of public open-house meals and summer festivals.
Would think it not accurate to say they have "restaurants" without specifying the serving of prasadam, or else at the very least say "vegetarian restaurants" so it doesn't read like they own a few BurgerKings.
If no objections or changes made I'll fix a couple of these tomorrow Joevanisland 23:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the problem to me is that the article doesn't seem to inform as to what ISKCON entails to those within it. In other words, the impression I get from this article is not synonomous with the impression I get from observing or experiencing devotees and ISKCON temples, thus it seems ... incomplete. You have history, philosophy, and scandal, but no section in your Contents for activities outside of preaching activities. Or better put, you seem to me to have written about ISKCON more vis a vis belief than practice. I would think (and forgive me for the unavoidable problem that many of you may find it offensive for a non-devotee to "sum-up" your dear Prabhu), having known devotees and been in ISKCON temples, that the nature of Srila Prabhupada's example and message is vaishnavism as practice, not philosophical talk. Is my view here incorrect?
Further, the Sankirtan link is fine for evangelical Sankirtan, but not the overall idea to an outsider of the importance of singing and music to ISKCON. Such would allow a better distinction between ISKCON and other more private activity based practices, such as some Buddhist or Hindu methods of meditation and so on. Perhaps I am mistaken and kirtans are not or are no longer part of daily ISKCON life separate from evangelical activities. It simply always seemed to me that kirtan in all it's forms allows for one to see ISKCON as not sharing other religions' focus on self(ish)-enlightenment but on glorifying God for others to hear, including for oneself to hear. I realize I may be failing to explain myself in this space. I realize also that most of this is solved by the Vaishnav articles, so some of this is discardable as nothing more than my personal idea that ISKCON should have a contained explanation of it's own practices on the idea that it is a specific english language movement not always accurately defined merely through links to general and historical vaisnavism articles.
Lastly, how does one help with an article such as this? How would someone like me write a sentence on prasadam? By virtue of NPOV and being a non-devotee, I would have to write things like believed to be influenced by the person preparing, and so on. Will this cause objections? This must be difficult for devotees, as it must feel sacrilidge for you to write lines that do not state such things as fact. If I can provide any service as to getting around this problem, advise me further and I shall help all I can. Joevanisland 20:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I know that Swami Prabhupada translated the Vedas and other legendary Hindu scriptures. But does ISKON actually perform rituals in the vedic scriptures ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ne0Freedom ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is a statement from ISKCON own source given as a fact? 217.198.224.13 10:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The iskcon faith can be considered an "original" work by wikipedia standards as Hinduism already has an established collection of authentic books. remove iskcon from wikipedia hindu references as per wikipedia standards please and also other faiths claiming to be hindu faiths . please — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.129.133 ( talk) 07:44, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
ISKCON arranges Rath Yatras in India and around the world at different times. These Rath yatras were objected by the Jagganath temple of Puri as being against tradition. [5] Adding a note of the issue in img cap.-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 12:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that a reference to the entire Direction of Management is appropriate rather than just the sections that are currently being followed.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anuttamadasi ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted some changes today based on the following logic:
Hope this clarifies my edits. Best Regards, Gouranga(UK) ( talk) 23:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear Wikidas,
I attempted to begin a discussion, but you appeared to ignore the above points? In your recent edits you have, amongst some good edits I must add, also :
As much as I appreciate your beneficial changes and agree with keeping some of the recent citations I will have to revert the other changes. Unless you can explain good reasons for the above? As a general note, I have found it is often very helpful to discuss things on the talk page before making several changes of this type to articles which involve a lot of general activity.
Best Regards, Gouranga(UK) ( talk) 19:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Re: GourangaUK points 1-6
If you narrow your point to the above 6 points I think we can arrive to an agreement. It however requires some consideration.
Wikidās 21:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Category:Vaishnavism is an important category and should not be removed Wikidās ॐ 07:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It should then be in Vaisnavism. It makes not sense to put ISKCON in the category ISKCON for navigational reasons. Wikidās ॐ 17:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
We are discussing two different things, articles and categories. The article ISKCON goes in the Category ISKCON. The category ISKCON is a Sub-category of the Category Vaishnavism.-- Editor2020 ( talk) 18:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Three references where moved from LEAD to section on internal problems, [8] I wonder how come external criticism belongs to internal problems of the group ?-- talk-to-me! ( talk) 13:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Cult free world add very biased sources, no meet WP:Verfiability and WP:Reliability. Rick Ross is anti-cult activist -- not neutral source. Freedomofmind is blog, anti-cult POV. CESNUR site no say is cult, say is sect, and say yoga is sect too. Did User:Cult free world read article? User:Cult free world do original research. Please give 3rd party sources. No add bad sources. Thank you very much. 123.242.230.164 ( talk) 16:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
While they are controversial, they are also considered leaders and in the field and they are used as citations all over wikipedia.
Anyway they aren't being cited as experts. All the text says is that ISKON has been discussed within the anti-cult movement. Here are two examples.
Reverting the removal of the text. Sethie ( talk) 03:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Please note that original references were added by Cult_free_world who has history of similar actions [10]. NPOV should be addressed in this case by providing alternative readings.
The oldest scriptures of Classic Indian Culture are the four (or three) Vedas, the oldest of them being the Rg-Veda the oldest core of which is generally dated to some time not before 1800 BC. The Bhagavad Gita is included in one of the two great epics of India, the Mahabharata which is generally dated to the time from 200 BC onwards, the Bhagavatapurana to the 10th century AD. None of the scriptures mentioned in the first part of the article are - considered even the most generous datings - older than 2,500 years.
(cf. Encyclopedia of Hinduism, C.A. Jones, J.D Ryan - Facts on File inc.
Dictionary of Indology, A.K. Roy, N.N Gidwani - Oxford & IBH Publishing Wikipedia Article)
Akimboa23 ( talk) 16:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
This sequence of sentences in the section Issues within the society does not make sense
(OK, good so far)
Eeeh! What is the discourse here? Does "the most genuinely Hindu" imply the interest of "some anti-cult movements"? If then, how? Worst interpretation first: Is the essence of "the most genuinely Hindu" the same as "cultic" per western thinking, or better: does "the most genuinely Hindu" evoke the fear of the presumedly irrational anti-cult movements? Or second (and most benevolent) interpretation does the "the most genuinely Hindu" disprove that ISKCON is "cultic", then the question is a giant How?!
Is this some kind of advert admission that: "OK, then, it was cultic, but isn't anymore"? ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 17:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I think there is a serious issue with neutrality. I knew nothing of ISKCON before reading this article, but it is clear that all objective statements have been drowned out by believers. The cult criticism (as mentioned above) is clear example of this. The discussion page, likewise, constantly devolves into a discussion of tenants of the religion. I have nothing against the faith. I would just like some bias to be curtailed in the interest of factual discussion. It is clear the primary authors and editors are not disinterested parties. Grant ( bork²) 4:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.110.139.53 ( talk)
This article needs to be factually written. Saying that the Direction of Management was a "letter" when in fact it is legal witnessed document is untrue. In addition quoting the parts that are being followed and then deleting any reference to the parts that are currently being ignored by the GBC is untruthful.
Regarding Srila Prabhupada's appointment of the "eleven", the July 9th letter clearly names them as "ritviks." That is truthful. After his passing the eleven became "Zonal Acaryas" by appointing themselves to that post. That is truthful.
Anuttamadasi ( talk) 23:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Srila Prabhupada created the DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT, which was signed, witnessed and notarized. This document created the GBC, and gave the EXACT DIRECTION AS TO HOW THE GBC SHOULD ACT ...Importanly, the GBC was to be ELECTED FROM THE BODY OF TEMPLE PRESIDENTS. The Temple presidents were instructed to hold elections every three years, and either re-elect existing GBC members, or elect new ones from a ballot of candidates chosen from the body of Temple Presidents.
Srila Prabhupada also wrote several letters stating that the temple presidents were to be elected by vote by the congregations of the individual temples, and that the GBC would have practically no AUTHORITY over the individual temples.
The devotees who live in ISKCON temples should be educated so that they understand the full extent of their constitutional powers. By the constitution of the ISKCON temple corporations, the members have the legal right to elect a new leadership. This is a little-known fact, but it is a law.
They also have the right to vote to impeach that leadership if they lose their qualification as leaders. Legally, they have voted to accept the appointed leaders by failing to vote them out. That is, unless the members assert their right to vote it is assumed they wish to follow the appointed system.
Because the GBC assumed dictatorial powers NOT PROVIDED in the DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT, they were in a position to "cover up" crimes committed by each other, and to terrorize the temple presidents by threatening to "kick them out" for insubordination. Since they were not authorized to do either of the above, we can see that their pattern of abuse followed the typical pattern of abuse in "rogue states" and other dictatorships and oligarchies that ARE NOT ANSWERABLE TO THE PUBLIC. It would have been almost impossible for the molestations of the children in the Gurukulas to have taken place if Srila Prabhupada's DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT had been followed.
The only thing that can be said in our (congregational member's) favour is that the GBC VERY CAREFULLY HID THE TEXT OF THE DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT UNTIL THE 1990'S. (Over twenty years!) So that NO CONGREGATIONAL MEMBER OF ISKCON REALIZED TO WHAT DEGREE THEY WERE (AND SITLL ARE) BEING RIPPED OFF!
The devotees should assert their rights under the law, at least in the United States, and immediately hold elections to force the GBC to resign as managers and trustees of all ISKCON properties. This is the only chance to save Srila Prabhupada's legacy from total destruction. If after the prosecution and defense presentations in the court, where all the details of the GBCs' intransigence will become public knowledge, the jury finds the defendants culpable, and if they did not resign when the case first began, this arrogant attitude will influence the judge and jury to increase the penalty.
Urdhvaga das —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.116.175.87 ( talk) 00:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I invite editors to formulate a statement of consensus on the position of Hinduism in relation to ISKCON. At one occasion the founder said it was not Hinduism but Krishnaism. On the other hand there are prominent scholars who define Hinduism differently. Flood, G. "Hare Krishna: Hinduism, Vaisnavism, and ISKCON: Authentic Traditions or Scholarly Constructions?". www.icsahome.com. Retrieved 2009-04-20.. Your views are welcomed backed by reliable sources that not biased. Do not just pile up primary sources here, it has to be WP:SECONDARY or at least from a Tertiary source. It appears the most acceptable to all definition of Hinduism is Sanatan Dharma, it appears ISKCON supports this definition. ( "Hinduism". www.iskcon.org.uk.), ( "ISKCON Scholar Greets Pope on Behalf Of US Hindus". news.iskcon.com.). I suggest the above links are added to the links section of the article. Wikidās ॐ 09:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
This is good discussion, I think the same would apply to swaminarayan, sai baba, etc. All new "sects" that claim Hindu scriptures in their belief system but otherwise do not propagate Hindu values. Arya Samaj and other groups have tried previously to rid Hinduism of these practices. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.72.45 ( talk) 06:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
International Society for Krishna Consciousness is better known as ISKCON in abbreviation. It is more popular and common name thus proposed a move, unless serious objection is mounted. Wikid as© 19:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I apologize, in reverting the move I called it "undiscussed", but I see it has indeed been discussed here. I still see nothing in the above that would present a good rationale, let alone a consensus, for the move. It is undisputed that ISKCON is popularly known as "the Hare Krishnas", which is why this article has had a disambiguating hatnote pointing to ISKCON for years. -- dab (𒁳) 12:15, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
"Bhavananda Das" (or Charles Bacis) redirect here - yet there is no mention of him. Maybe there should be something under 'controversy'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.145.210.235 ( talk) 00:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
It is a notable logo, and is actually being used by many centres (British). So called "new logo" did not really take off and is copyrighted/licensed in a way that does not allow reproduction in Wikipedia. So the original historical logo is to be displayed. This is not business directory and there is no need to have the "current" logo displayed. The original logo has some meaning (which newer one does not have it seems) and it was designed by the founder of the organization, which makes it more important, notable and interesting for the purposes of the encyclopedia WP:ENCYCLOPEDIA. It is not a business directory WP:NOT, nor does it have to have the latest logo displayed, thus removal of historical logo shall be treated as disruptive and a vandalism. Wikid as© 21:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
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Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on International Society for Krishna Consciousness/Archive 1 and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here. |
Opinion: There has been substantial debate over the question of whether prior logos of organizations can be used here at all, but there seems to be substantial agreement that if they can be used, the fair-use guidelines do not support the use of a prior logo merely because it is of interest simply as a prior logo. There must be some discussion in the text of the article about the logo (other than a mere mention that the organization had a prior logo, but changed it) or which the logo serves to illustrate in a necessary way. Without such discussion, inclusion fails to satisfy #8 of the non-free content criteria: "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." In this case there is no issue or discussion in the text for which the prior logo is a necessary illustration and the logo should not be included in the article (or on this talk page, thus I have removed it). |
What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.— TRANSPORTERMAN ( TALK) 15:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
This whole article is NPOV propaganda. Issues---even serious crimes---are glossed over. Esoteric cult issues are given fawning attention. Someone besides shaven-headed traveller-annoyers needs to rewrite this.
Not even a single mention that---for decades---the face of Hare Krishna seen by most was a persistently annoying beggar in an airport, pestering people to buy religous tracts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.180.83 ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 11 June 2011
Sanitized and only getting worse. This "article" is a joke. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
198.135.125.153 (
talk)
21:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Under the heading 'Influential leaders since 1977': the sentence regarding Ramesvara, Bhagavan das and Harikesa: none of these three are mentioned in the reference supplied. No mention is made of expulsion of members by the GBC. This is an article about the GBC and various controversies within ISKCON, and it may well be worthwhile to include in this article somewhere, but it does not belong at the end of that sentence, and that sentence is otherwise unsourced and contentious. Elizium23 ( talk) 18:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 05:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
International Society for Krishna Consciousness → Hare Krishna movement – I don't want to be acussed of WP:OR here, but I'm pretty confident that very few people refer to these folks as the "International Society for Krishna Consciousness". I think there's a pretty strong WP:COMMONNAME argument here to have this page moved. NickCT ( talk) 12:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article.
The term most typically used in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name. Other encyclopedias may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register as well as what name is most frequently used.
Why are you checking the books for the last 20 years only? ISKCON has been around since 1966. Before 1966 the term "Hare Krishna movement" was not used at all. Properly constructed Gogglebooks search yields following results:
Google News search:
I didn't include search results for "Hare Krishna" because the term is also used to refer to Hare Krishna mantra Gaura79 ( talk) 10:19, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
The diet describes a no meat, fish, or eggs. Immediately afterwards it has a link to ovo-vegetarianism (which would include eggs). I'd fix it, but I do not know which of these mutually exclusive items to change. 71.110.67.231 ( talk) 03:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
This article has serious NPOV issues and should be flagged as such. 50.133.160.189 ( talk) 16:18, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
True still as if 2018. No mention of rape, murders, pedofilia or worse. Zezen ( talk) 08:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Can we add a redirect from /wiki/ISCKON
Why HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami redirects to this page? It makes not sense, as he's not even mentioned in the article. There should be a separate article dedicated to him; it should not redirect here. -- Iamrcr ( talk) 19:11, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I'd like to mention that the article misses out a lot of information regarding ISKCON's belief in creationism and their rejection of Darwinian evolution, the Big Bang theory from physical cosmology, and a host of other manifestly pseudo-scientific and incorrect information that is spread through their schooling and education system.
A number of academics have already published about this phenomenon in the larger debate about modern attitudes towards science in Hindu social circles. Material for the same can definitely be procured. I'd like to know your opinions about the same.
P2C2E ( talk) 02:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
We need to say who has authorized them per "ISKCON is an authorized branch" Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks like a lot of ISKCON supporters are trying to remove the litigation section under one pretext or the other. Do not try to misrepresent information. Espectially to User:Cinosaur
I do not see how it is violating any wikipedia policies. Neither is the section poorly sourced. It is much better sourced than the rest of the article, which has NPOV issues, as mentioned on the talk page. Do not edit that section again, if you a have a problem with it, please sign up for dispute resolution. And it does not follow the Internal Problems section, either logically, or chronologically. KatieRoses ( talk) 11:44, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
This section is informative, but the tone seems more essay-like than encyclopaedic. I think there's a difference between essay tone and encyclopaedia tone. What do others think? Does the section need some mild reshaping?
Regards to all, Notreallydavid ( talk) 23:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Ps. I think the section needs some more references.
In suriname there is a debtie movement. They are similar to Hare Krishna and brhamacharya ( tweede rijweg). To be a follower you have to video tape your family and you have to take on a lot of debt and then you sell your babies to other people for money. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.157.227 ( talk) 23:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
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Hi Arghya1999, I appreciate your efforts to expand the list of prohibited foodstuffs but I think it might be better for clarity to keep this simple, more along the lines of ISKCON's official propaganda. Otherwise we could add gelatine (as in jelly), rennet (in cheese), red lentils (aka masoor dhal), leeks, cochineal (red food dye), edible bone filler in tablets, gelatin again (as in medicinal capsules) – the list goes on and on, if you see my point! So, I hope you don't mind if I revert your edit :-) Samsbanned ( talk) 01:45, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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Hi, I am surprised there isn't more information about if Hare Krishna is considered a religion, sect or cult, showing the arguments either way. I got the impression from sociology class, which was a while ago for me, that there is academic discussion of this matter. Also, in the UK at least, I think it is commonly assumed that Hare Krishna is a cult. I have no particular opinion on that myself, but would like to see a summary of that on this page, as it's not really mentioned much. I came to the page looking for some information about that during a discussion about this issue between friends. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.11.86 ( talk) 21:25, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Within ISKCON, "... men advance spiritually through celibacy and nonattachment; women advance through motherhood and devotion to their husbands in the tradition of stridharma, the wifely duty of submission to the husband and the bearing of sons".[48] Due to this ideology of men needing celibacy in order to be spiritual, sex is something that is not highly discussed within the community. Also, the fact that nonattachment is something that leads to spiritual growth as a man, the men have little attachment for the women in their life. Additionally, men are encouraged to keep women at arms length due to the effect it could have on their gender in their next life.
"Also, the fact that nonattachment is something that leads to spiritual growth as a man, the men have little attachment for the women in their life. " feels redundant- the theme of nonattachment is covered in this section, and the claim that ISKCON men "have little attachment for the women in their life" seems to be maybe what the ideal that men are taught to strive for- but to claim that is how all ISKCON men actually are is an unsubstantiated claim. Hence removed that sentence. Sethie ( talk) 21:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
I recently had to restore the statement that ISKCON is a Hindu movement to the lead of this article. It had been removed on the grounds that, "A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami stated many times that Krishna consciousness is not Hindu". Here are two references that discuss the issue and show that while Prabhupada did try to distinguish between ISKCON and Hinduism, ISKCON later identified itself as a Hindu movement, and adherents who insist otherwise are a minority:
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This article - and associated pages - is not written in accordance with Wikipedia's NPOV policies. It is clear that people who 'follow' the beliefs of the subject of the article have been slanting and maintaining the content thereof in favour of the subject, and nearly all references are, at root, self-published by the organisation or its adherents. As such it probably needs a complete re-write. Undue weight is given to information which is not of encyclopaedic interest but only to followers of ISKC, and such information is especially subject to questions of factual accuracy by many recognised external sources. Articles on WP must always use reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and which are not closely associated with the subject.
Do not remove these tags before the various issues are dealt with. (see: Help:Maintenance template removal). There are five different tags used here because they cover different issues with the article. -- AlisonW ( talk) 12:23, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
For over a year the lead has said: "ISKCON was founded in 1966 in New York City by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who is worshipped by followers as Guru and spiritual master." In most faiths being venerated as a Guru and/or master is entirely different from being worshipped, and in most extant monotheisms it would be heretical to use the term for anything beyond a very specific list (in Catholicism saints are venerated, etc.). So of primary importance: what word do ISKCON members themselves use with regard to their veneration of Prabhupada? Second, what word do scholars use? Both should be cited and posted. SamuelRiv ( talk) 02:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
This article needs a section to talk about Ritvikism and its main ideas. This is needed because a large Ritvik group in India is called ISKCON Bangalore while in fact it's a separate institution from ISKCON. So this can become a source of confusion for people who are new to this subject matter. This section could also talk briefly about the relationship between Narayana Maharaja's Pure Bhakti and ISKCON, and also about Paramadvaiti's Vrinda. -- Iamrcr ( talk) 09:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
There are different groups within the institution trying to push distinct agendas over the subject of women's roles so I request editors to watch and research this section closely enough to ensure that there won't be any bias. Specially it should be highlighted that it's a controversial subject. This section was heavily biased when I found it so I performed some edits. -- Iamrcr ( talk) 09:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Second paragraph, second sentence. Comma preceding "that its leaders" 198.176.81.33 ( talk) 17:38, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Please ping me should there be any issues will be re-introduction of the multiple issues, and other additions I've made to make it clear that certain parts of this article do not meet policy/guidelines. {{u|
waddie96}} {
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19:58, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
A while back I removed a section at the start which was not only meant to inspire prejudice, but also redudant since the same topic is covered later in the article. Chiswick_Chap keeps reverting it back. Please do not. Another editor FreeKnowledgeCreator keeps removing images of ISKCON centers at the bottom for some reason. Please do not. shiva das 20:40, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
That is a subjective opinion. Is there some rule that says you can remove all images if you don't like the number of images? Can you comment on my other complaint? shiva das 03:25, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I disagree with both your points. If we look at an average wiki article on a religious group how many start off with detailing complaints against the group by various antagonists? This is a clear sign of bias, and also the removal of all images as if that is a right of yours also shows bias imho. shiva das 19:29, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
So if I go to the page of any religious group and at the start say "The Society for Hating Religions has called this religion a terrible group of people, please hate them." You are saying that is not only allowed it is normal and no one should question bias when people demand that type of statement to be included at the start of every religious group article. Why not include the opinion of the Skeptic societies like so "As has been proven, God doesn't exist, and therefore all people promoting a religious belief are con artists or wackos trying to steal your money". That is exactly what you are doing and promoting. That is clearly bias. As for images, is there a wikipedia rule on the number of images? shiva das 21:50, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
You know its funny to my religious scholar friends to see how Wikipedia treats religious groups whom editors don't understand or may be biased against, because one of our maxims is "a cult is a religion I don't like." That is a joke to us but we take it seriously since to so many people that is how they view the word cult. Here are some facts of ISKCON not found in this article but which is common knowledge in the Hindu world:
shiva das 22:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)