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Which language did the Ingrians spoke? Was it related to Finnish? 1 August 2005 81.232.72.148
So, what exactly is wrong with it? So far it has been removed several times with comments about the map not being in english or that is should be in russian. So instead of reverting I want to ask how we can fix the map so that it is acceptable to everyone? -- Jniemenmaa 07:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Having said that it's an interesting map, and lurking while its being reverted back & forth, I'm beginning to wonder where does the map come from? It's not explained, which makes the map a bit suspicous. On what basis was it made? Does anyone know? Maybe if that was sorted out we could all come to some kind of consensus. Also, why are there strange-shaped nameless regions on it? Why do they appear around St Petersburg, and on the edges of the "Ingria" yellow zone? Deuar 15:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not think it is correct as the caption currently states: "Ingria and the Lutheran parishes in the Saint Petersburg Governorate ca. 1900". The westernmost part a part of Ingria was transferred to Estonia after the Treaty of Tartu (Russian–Estonian) in 1920, the so called Estonian Ingria. The map clearly indicates Kosemkina parish not to include this part. Estionian Ingria formed an own parish around the church in Kallivieri between the year 1920-1940 when the church was operating. I think the map illustrates the parishes around year 1930. -- Kr-val 14:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the map could be revised to include both the Finnish and Russian names? Just a thought. — Khoikhoi 01:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that the odious map was reuploaded. Now we have to find and add a Russian-language map of St Pete guberniya from 1900 to counterpoise the bias. I also recommend uploading the Russian-language map of Finland to History of Finland. I still fail to see the point of a map with ridiculously distorted Russian names, like "Hatsina" instead of "Gatchina" and "Markkova" instead of "Markovo". I believe they are quite meaningless in Finnish. Moreover, some evidence should be produced that these names were used in Saint Petersburg guberniya at the time, otherwise it's pure original research. -- Ghirla -трёп- 05:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The Finnish Wikipedia has a large number of articles on both Ingria and the Leningrad Oblast, including separate articles on each of the raions and parishes of the entities. Even though these occupy the same geographic space, there seem to have a minimal relationship to each other. There are hardly any wikilinks between the two sets of articles, as if the two entities existed only in alternate realities.
A nearly similar situation exists in Kaliningrad and the Karelian Isthmus, where, after a total renewal of population, the new Soviet political entities replaced the old Finnish or German communities with little respect for the old borders. The difference with Ingria is that Finnish Ingria claims to exists, not only in the same place, but at the same time as the Russian entities.
The situation is quite plausible. Many large cities with one dominant population have existed in areas, where the rural population is of a different language, nationality or even religion. One example is Helsinki, an almost monolingual Finnish city. It is surrounded by a Swedish language countryside, that has existed for some 800 years. Only the expansion of suburbs is replacing the language. A similar situation existed in Ingria; the Finnish peasants and Lutheran parishes co-existed with Saint Petersburg and other smaller Russian cities and with the manor houses of Russian nobility.
It seems that very few Soviet or Russian sources are available on Finnish Ingria. This has been seen by some as an attempt in historical revisionism or negationism with and aim of covering the ethnic cleansing and possible genocide.
I was surprised by the disappearance of the image without it being tagged for removal. It struck me as a possible abuse of administrator privileges, in an misguided attempt at blanking information.
A word of advice to all you russophile would-be revisionists. This is a very sensitive subject. Please be very careful with your attempts at censorship. I do not believe you want to be associated with the " Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity". -- Petri Krohn 10:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The Ingrian flag thumb is marked with citation needed ATM. Here are some provisional sources: [5] (Swedish) [6] -- Himasaram 14:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Some people are continually putting back the link to the ru-sib version. Note that that refers to "Izhorian land". Finnish contributors above keep repeating that Izhorian and Ingrian is not the same thing, and Siberian is a conlang, WP-OWNed by User:Yaroslav Zolotaryov, there is a clear problem of OR here. -- Pan Gerwazy 17:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the most basic rule of English wikipedia, wikipedia:Verifiability, which takes precedence over all other policies, the links to any frivolous articles in ru-sib will be deleted. `' mikkanarxi 22:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Cuting ru-sib link is a vandalism.
What are reasons why the link to picture
was deleted from the article? Waimea 21:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Between 6 November and 14 November (8 days), over 60 edits were made to this page, and about 60 of them simply were adding and removing that iw link. [14]
About 30 times, the iw link was added, and precisely as many times, about 30, it was removed. In average, more than thrice a day, both actions were made.
The most eager revert warriors have been:
In the removing party erasing the link (only three of them participated in the discussion with more than one comment):
In the party adding the link after its removal:
One starts to wonder why a link is so wanted to be erased. Waimea 22:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I read it, and my opinion is that the presented reasons to remove the iw link are not legitimate. The existence of another-language wikipedia is not decided in this article. Waimea 22:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think in this page something must be done to create the historical rules which to be followed.
In Finnish history Inkere (Inkerenmaa) the time period before 1617.
In Finnish history Inkeri (Inkerinmaa) the time period 1617 - 1721.
In Finnish history Inkeri (Ingermanland) historical province between Narva River and Lava River under Swedish - Finnish Kingdom 1617 (Treaty of Stolbova) - 1721 (Treaty of Nystad).
But geographically the area from Narva River to Olhava River. Southern border run from Peipsijärvi following the great Nevas (Suursuot) which separated the Finnish population (Vatjas, Inkerikot, Savakot and Äyrämös) from Russian population living mainly south of this big fen belt.
Just to make things clear please note the situation after 1617 (Treaty of Stolbova).
Inkerinmaa (Ingermanland)
- Iivananlinnan lääni, (Ivangorod län), Ivangorod province
- Jaaman lääni, (Jama län), Jama province,
- Pähkinälinnan lääni, (Nöteborg län), Nöteborg province
--- Kuiwas pogosta
--- Keltus pogosta
--- Loppis pogosta
--- Jaroselski pogosta
--- Tuterois (Duderhof) pogosta
--- Ingerois (Iserski) pogosta
--- Spaski pogosta
--- Koroselski pogosta
Together in 1618 602 mantals of which 84 mantals by the time not inhabited.
The area was south of Käkisalmen lääni / Kexholm län. The Ingermanland was admistrationally south of Viipuri lääni / Viborg län and from pogostas Pyhäjärvi, Sackula, Rautus and Räisälä which formed the southern Käkisalmi lääni / Kexholm län. (Total 432 mantals in 1619)
The northern Käkisalmi lääni / Kexholm län was formed from Tjurala, Koitsanlax, Jougio, Kurkijoki, Uguniemi, Kides, Libelits, Tomajärvi, Pelkijärvi, Sordavala, Suojärvi, Ilomants, Salmis and Suistamo pogostas. (Total 2761 mantals in 1618)
Please note that Siestarjoki (Systerbäck) was in Viipuri lääni / Viborg län up to Februry 15, 1864 and belonged to Kivennapa when it was transferred with Imperial Ukaze to Russian Empire. In return Alexander II promised as compensation to Grand Duchy of Finland Petsamo area. Area from Norwegian border to Jaakopinjoki in Stolbova Bay in Arctic Sea. Only after this date Siestarjoki belonged adminstrationally to St.Petersburg gubernija (former Izhora gubernija).
All these information are available in former Valtionarkisto (State archive), Helsinki.
I recommend others than Finnish speaking users also visit in Finnish (Suomi) web sides and click Inkeri or Inkerinmaa. There is much information available also in English and Russian.
JN
Somebody asked this: [16]. Just to clarify: The warning is, of course, only directed at bots. Bots should never be designed to do controversial edits and overrule human editors. Unfortunately the pywikipedia interwiki bots are misdesigned in this respect, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to stop them, short of telling all bot operators to never link to ru-sib at all. In effect, what we got is a bot army waging a months-long revert war against most of the local editors, mostly without even the knowledge of their operators, and that can't be tolerated.
There is no official decision or consensus on whether this link should be there or not, either way. Only fact I can see is that the ru-sib link is controversial. If an editor, not a bot, wishes to re-open the discussion and advocate the inclusion of that link, they are obviously welcome to do so.
By the way, I can't help noticing that on other articles there are iw links to ru-sib articles that are much worse than this one (e.g. the one from Russia), and nobody seems to have been protesting. I'm not sure why this particular link has become such a charged issue. The particular article at ru-sib seems pretty harmless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The threat does not have basis in WP:POLICY. Accordingly, I have removed it.
Interwiki links can not, in themself, be controversial, as long as semantic mapping is done properly. In this case, there's no question of mistaken mapping; the supposed "controversy" is about the legitimacy of the Siberian language Wikipedia. Apparently, Wikimedia Foundation considers it legitimate, but some Wikipedia editors (who appear to all be ethnically Russian) find it offensive, and in attempt to justify the censorship, have concocted this "controversy". This is not a legitimate process. Digwuren 00:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This article has been protected due to the edit warring over the interwiki links. A discussion is in place at WP:BOWN and WT:BOT. — xaosflux Talk 01:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
valhallasw@elladan:~/pywikipedia/trunk/pywikipedia$ python interwiki.py en:Ingria Getting 1 pages from wikipedia:en... (...) Getting 1 pages from wikipedia:nl... [[en:Ingria]]: [[nl:Ingermanland]] gives new interwiki [[ru-sib:Ингерманландия]] (...) Getting 1 pages from wikipedia:ru-sib... ======Post-processing [[en:Ingria]]====== Updating links on page [[en:Ingria]]. Ignoring link to [[ru-sib:Ингерманландия]] for [[en:Ingria]] No changes needed Updating links on page [[nl:Ingermanland]]. No changes needed WARNING: wikipedia: [[en:Ingria]] does not link to [[ru-sib:Ингерманландия]] valhallasw@elladan:~/pywikipedia/trunk/pywikipedia$
Good enough? Committed in r4106, even though this entire ignore-this-link idea is crazy. ValHallASW 20:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
See [17]. multichill 22:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Heh,hee. Typical, the world was created when the Indo-European Scandinavias (NOT VIKINGS IN EAST) come and followed, of course, by the Russians. Which Russians?. There were not Russians at that time. There were only Slavonic heimos (tribes) divided to those who spoked somekind of Slavonic language or who did not. Then they were separated to Western Slavs, Southern Slavs and the Eastern Slavs. And the Western Slavs become later Poles, Czechs and Slovakis which adopted later Roman Catholic religion and writing in Latinized alphabet. But where are the original inhabitants of Ingermanland? The Inkerot and Vatjans. Dropped from the sky peharps.
There is something missing in the article. The Total Finnish, Estonian, and Ingermanlanders INSIDE ADMINSTRATIONAL BORDERS in CITY of St.Petersburg in 1914 was 150.000 formed as follows:
They formed about ten per cent of the total population inside the City of St.Petersburg. The total number of illigal Finns were only estimated, because they just walked over the border in Northern Ingermanland on places where were not any formalities. Then they continued their own way through Ingermanland to St.Petersburg. Nobody checked their working permissions when they were employed by local enterprises. I personally knew at least three of them with motto; Where a skilled worker earned in Viipuri one mark, they earned in St.Petersburg two marks from the same job.
The 1926 figures show the situation after May 1921 when most of the Estonians and Finns had left Petrograd back to Estonia and Finland. There were of course some who did not leave. Those married with the Russians and decided to stay and gave up the passports and took the citizenship of Soviet Russia.
Here is nice piece of totally missing history. In the island of Retusaari which from 1617 belonged to Kivennapa at Viborg län. It was used mainly in summer time as a place where they placed cattle during summer. A long lived habit of local inhabitants. Seven families of Kivennapa, those who lived in Siestarjoki, owned the island. Later in mid 1600´s one family named Kivekäs moved permanently into island, built their houses and acted also fishermen and seal hunters. The family had about 20 members in 1697 who lived at Retusaari. One morning in 1699 there become a raw boat in the beach carrying only one young man and an old man sitting on the back of the boat. They did not talk anything, watched just around and returned back to their boat and dissapeared back to the bay. One young man of Kivekäs family watched carefully their doings, but he decided not to kill them because he felt they are unharmless. One was quite young and the other too old to be of any danger. So he let them go. Had he known, as he later told, that they were Tsar Peter and one old Duke he would had killed both of them. So the history is doing strange things and often has details which could have been changed the main stream of history.
Miihkali Antreinpoika Golitsin was governor of Pihkova in the 1680s. 82.181.234.211 ( talk) 19:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Swedish fortress Nyenschantz, now St. Petersburg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyenschantz
This page needs
translation into English. This page is written in a language other than English. If it is intended for readers from the community of that language, it should be contributed to the Wikipedia in that language. See the list of Wikipedias. |
The map labels are not in English. It would be very helpful to label something on the map "Ingria", because it is unclear what part that is. -- Beland ( talk) 22:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Which language did the Ingrians spoke? Was it related to Finnish? 1 August 2005 81.232.72.148
So, what exactly is wrong with it? So far it has been removed several times with comments about the map not being in english or that is should be in russian. So instead of reverting I want to ask how we can fix the map so that it is acceptable to everyone? -- Jniemenmaa 07:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Having said that it's an interesting map, and lurking while its being reverted back & forth, I'm beginning to wonder where does the map come from? It's not explained, which makes the map a bit suspicous. On what basis was it made? Does anyone know? Maybe if that was sorted out we could all come to some kind of consensus. Also, why are there strange-shaped nameless regions on it? Why do they appear around St Petersburg, and on the edges of the "Ingria" yellow zone? Deuar 15:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not think it is correct as the caption currently states: "Ingria and the Lutheran parishes in the Saint Petersburg Governorate ca. 1900". The westernmost part a part of Ingria was transferred to Estonia after the Treaty of Tartu (Russian–Estonian) in 1920, the so called Estonian Ingria. The map clearly indicates Kosemkina parish not to include this part. Estionian Ingria formed an own parish around the church in Kallivieri between the year 1920-1940 when the church was operating. I think the map illustrates the parishes around year 1930. -- Kr-val 14:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the map could be revised to include both the Finnish and Russian names? Just a thought. — Khoikhoi 01:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that the odious map was reuploaded. Now we have to find and add a Russian-language map of St Pete guberniya from 1900 to counterpoise the bias. I also recommend uploading the Russian-language map of Finland to History of Finland. I still fail to see the point of a map with ridiculously distorted Russian names, like "Hatsina" instead of "Gatchina" and "Markkova" instead of "Markovo". I believe they are quite meaningless in Finnish. Moreover, some evidence should be produced that these names were used in Saint Petersburg guberniya at the time, otherwise it's pure original research. -- Ghirla -трёп- 05:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The Finnish Wikipedia has a large number of articles on both Ingria and the Leningrad Oblast, including separate articles on each of the raions and parishes of the entities. Even though these occupy the same geographic space, there seem to have a minimal relationship to each other. There are hardly any wikilinks between the two sets of articles, as if the two entities existed only in alternate realities.
A nearly similar situation exists in Kaliningrad and the Karelian Isthmus, where, after a total renewal of population, the new Soviet political entities replaced the old Finnish or German communities with little respect for the old borders. The difference with Ingria is that Finnish Ingria claims to exists, not only in the same place, but at the same time as the Russian entities.
The situation is quite plausible. Many large cities with one dominant population have existed in areas, where the rural population is of a different language, nationality or even religion. One example is Helsinki, an almost monolingual Finnish city. It is surrounded by a Swedish language countryside, that has existed for some 800 years. Only the expansion of suburbs is replacing the language. A similar situation existed in Ingria; the Finnish peasants and Lutheran parishes co-existed with Saint Petersburg and other smaller Russian cities and with the manor houses of Russian nobility.
It seems that very few Soviet or Russian sources are available on Finnish Ingria. This has been seen by some as an attempt in historical revisionism or negationism with and aim of covering the ethnic cleansing and possible genocide.
I was surprised by the disappearance of the image without it being tagged for removal. It struck me as a possible abuse of administrator privileges, in an misguided attempt at blanking information.
A word of advice to all you russophile would-be revisionists. This is a very sensitive subject. Please be very careful with your attempts at censorship. I do not believe you want to be associated with the " Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity". -- Petri Krohn 10:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The Ingrian flag thumb is marked with citation needed ATM. Here are some provisional sources: [5] (Swedish) [6] -- Himasaram 14:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Some people are continually putting back the link to the ru-sib version. Note that that refers to "Izhorian land". Finnish contributors above keep repeating that Izhorian and Ingrian is not the same thing, and Siberian is a conlang, WP-OWNed by User:Yaroslav Zolotaryov, there is a clear problem of OR here. -- Pan Gerwazy 17:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the most basic rule of English wikipedia, wikipedia:Verifiability, which takes precedence over all other policies, the links to any frivolous articles in ru-sib will be deleted. `' mikkanarxi 22:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Cuting ru-sib link is a vandalism.
What are reasons why the link to picture
was deleted from the article? Waimea 21:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Between 6 November and 14 November (8 days), over 60 edits were made to this page, and about 60 of them simply were adding and removing that iw link. [14]
About 30 times, the iw link was added, and precisely as many times, about 30, it was removed. In average, more than thrice a day, both actions were made.
The most eager revert warriors have been:
In the removing party erasing the link (only three of them participated in the discussion with more than one comment):
In the party adding the link after its removal:
One starts to wonder why a link is so wanted to be erased. Waimea 22:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I read it, and my opinion is that the presented reasons to remove the iw link are not legitimate. The existence of another-language wikipedia is not decided in this article. Waimea 22:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think in this page something must be done to create the historical rules which to be followed.
In Finnish history Inkere (Inkerenmaa) the time period before 1617.
In Finnish history Inkeri (Inkerinmaa) the time period 1617 - 1721.
In Finnish history Inkeri (Ingermanland) historical province between Narva River and Lava River under Swedish - Finnish Kingdom 1617 (Treaty of Stolbova) - 1721 (Treaty of Nystad).
But geographically the area from Narva River to Olhava River. Southern border run from Peipsijärvi following the great Nevas (Suursuot) which separated the Finnish population (Vatjas, Inkerikot, Savakot and Äyrämös) from Russian population living mainly south of this big fen belt.
Just to make things clear please note the situation after 1617 (Treaty of Stolbova).
Inkerinmaa (Ingermanland)
- Iivananlinnan lääni, (Ivangorod län), Ivangorod province
- Jaaman lääni, (Jama län), Jama province,
- Pähkinälinnan lääni, (Nöteborg län), Nöteborg province
--- Kuiwas pogosta
--- Keltus pogosta
--- Loppis pogosta
--- Jaroselski pogosta
--- Tuterois (Duderhof) pogosta
--- Ingerois (Iserski) pogosta
--- Spaski pogosta
--- Koroselski pogosta
Together in 1618 602 mantals of which 84 mantals by the time not inhabited.
The area was south of Käkisalmen lääni / Kexholm län. The Ingermanland was admistrationally south of Viipuri lääni / Viborg län and from pogostas Pyhäjärvi, Sackula, Rautus and Räisälä which formed the southern Käkisalmi lääni / Kexholm län. (Total 432 mantals in 1619)
The northern Käkisalmi lääni / Kexholm län was formed from Tjurala, Koitsanlax, Jougio, Kurkijoki, Uguniemi, Kides, Libelits, Tomajärvi, Pelkijärvi, Sordavala, Suojärvi, Ilomants, Salmis and Suistamo pogostas. (Total 2761 mantals in 1618)
Please note that Siestarjoki (Systerbäck) was in Viipuri lääni / Viborg län up to Februry 15, 1864 and belonged to Kivennapa when it was transferred with Imperial Ukaze to Russian Empire. In return Alexander II promised as compensation to Grand Duchy of Finland Petsamo area. Area from Norwegian border to Jaakopinjoki in Stolbova Bay in Arctic Sea. Only after this date Siestarjoki belonged adminstrationally to St.Petersburg gubernija (former Izhora gubernija).
All these information are available in former Valtionarkisto (State archive), Helsinki.
I recommend others than Finnish speaking users also visit in Finnish (Suomi) web sides and click Inkeri or Inkerinmaa. There is much information available also in English and Russian.
JN
Somebody asked this: [16]. Just to clarify: The warning is, of course, only directed at bots. Bots should never be designed to do controversial edits and overrule human editors. Unfortunately the pywikipedia interwiki bots are misdesigned in this respect, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to stop them, short of telling all bot operators to never link to ru-sib at all. In effect, what we got is a bot army waging a months-long revert war against most of the local editors, mostly without even the knowledge of their operators, and that can't be tolerated.
There is no official decision or consensus on whether this link should be there or not, either way. Only fact I can see is that the ru-sib link is controversial. If an editor, not a bot, wishes to re-open the discussion and advocate the inclusion of that link, they are obviously welcome to do so.
By the way, I can't help noticing that on other articles there are iw links to ru-sib articles that are much worse than this one (e.g. the one from Russia), and nobody seems to have been protesting. I'm not sure why this particular link has become such a charged issue. The particular article at ru-sib seems pretty harmless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The threat does not have basis in WP:POLICY. Accordingly, I have removed it.
Interwiki links can not, in themself, be controversial, as long as semantic mapping is done properly. In this case, there's no question of mistaken mapping; the supposed "controversy" is about the legitimacy of the Siberian language Wikipedia. Apparently, Wikimedia Foundation considers it legitimate, but some Wikipedia editors (who appear to all be ethnically Russian) find it offensive, and in attempt to justify the censorship, have concocted this "controversy". This is not a legitimate process. Digwuren 00:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This article has been protected due to the edit warring over the interwiki links. A discussion is in place at WP:BOWN and WT:BOT. — xaosflux Talk 01:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
valhallasw@elladan:~/pywikipedia/trunk/pywikipedia$ python interwiki.py en:Ingria Getting 1 pages from wikipedia:en... (...) Getting 1 pages from wikipedia:nl... [[en:Ingria]]: [[nl:Ingermanland]] gives new interwiki [[ru-sib:Ингерманландия]] (...) Getting 1 pages from wikipedia:ru-sib... ======Post-processing [[en:Ingria]]====== Updating links on page [[en:Ingria]]. Ignoring link to [[ru-sib:Ингерманландия]] for [[en:Ingria]] No changes needed Updating links on page [[nl:Ingermanland]]. No changes needed WARNING: wikipedia: [[en:Ingria]] does not link to [[ru-sib:Ингерманландия]] valhallasw@elladan:~/pywikipedia/trunk/pywikipedia$
Good enough? Committed in r4106, even though this entire ignore-this-link idea is crazy. ValHallASW 20:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
See [17]. multichill 22:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Heh,hee. Typical, the world was created when the Indo-European Scandinavias (NOT VIKINGS IN EAST) come and followed, of course, by the Russians. Which Russians?. There were not Russians at that time. There were only Slavonic heimos (tribes) divided to those who spoked somekind of Slavonic language or who did not. Then they were separated to Western Slavs, Southern Slavs and the Eastern Slavs. And the Western Slavs become later Poles, Czechs and Slovakis which adopted later Roman Catholic religion and writing in Latinized alphabet. But where are the original inhabitants of Ingermanland? The Inkerot and Vatjans. Dropped from the sky peharps.
There is something missing in the article. The Total Finnish, Estonian, and Ingermanlanders INSIDE ADMINSTRATIONAL BORDERS in CITY of St.Petersburg in 1914 was 150.000 formed as follows:
They formed about ten per cent of the total population inside the City of St.Petersburg. The total number of illigal Finns were only estimated, because they just walked over the border in Northern Ingermanland on places where were not any formalities. Then they continued their own way through Ingermanland to St.Petersburg. Nobody checked their working permissions when they were employed by local enterprises. I personally knew at least three of them with motto; Where a skilled worker earned in Viipuri one mark, they earned in St.Petersburg two marks from the same job.
The 1926 figures show the situation after May 1921 when most of the Estonians and Finns had left Petrograd back to Estonia and Finland. There were of course some who did not leave. Those married with the Russians and decided to stay and gave up the passports and took the citizenship of Soviet Russia.
Here is nice piece of totally missing history. In the island of Retusaari which from 1617 belonged to Kivennapa at Viborg län. It was used mainly in summer time as a place where they placed cattle during summer. A long lived habit of local inhabitants. Seven families of Kivennapa, those who lived in Siestarjoki, owned the island. Later in mid 1600´s one family named Kivekäs moved permanently into island, built their houses and acted also fishermen and seal hunters. The family had about 20 members in 1697 who lived at Retusaari. One morning in 1699 there become a raw boat in the beach carrying only one young man and an old man sitting on the back of the boat. They did not talk anything, watched just around and returned back to their boat and dissapeared back to the bay. One young man of Kivekäs family watched carefully their doings, but he decided not to kill them because he felt they are unharmless. One was quite young and the other too old to be of any danger. So he let them go. Had he known, as he later told, that they were Tsar Peter and one old Duke he would had killed both of them. So the history is doing strange things and often has details which could have been changed the main stream of history.
Miihkali Antreinpoika Golitsin was governor of Pihkova in the 1680s. 82.181.234.211 ( talk) 19:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Swedish fortress Nyenschantz, now St. Petersburg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyenschantz
This page needs
translation into English. This page is written in a language other than English. If it is intended for readers from the community of that language, it should be contributed to the Wikipedia in that language. See the list of Wikipedias. |
The map labels are not in English. It would be very helpful to label something on the map "Ingria", because it is unclear what part that is. -- Beland ( talk) 22:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)