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I am afraid the claim of Indian victory in the infobox is false, pushed through by adducing sources selectively. The most reliable sources, those of academic publishers, consider it a military stalemate:
Listed below are twenty (20) scholarly sources that make the case that the India-Pakistan wars of 1947 and 1965 were military stalemates. By "scholarly" I mean the university presses and in addition Routledge, Wiley, Palgrave, Springer, and Hurst. I have not included trade paperbacks published by Harper Collins, Vintage, and so forth. Here is the list, which I have collapsed on account of its length:
Twenty scholarly sources on the outcome of the wars of 1947–48 and 1965
|
---|
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:45, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler, the amount of quotes that you've added to the article is excessive. You've almost tripled the amount of quotes in "Assessment of losses" section. The twenty-nine quotes in the section take up roughly a third of the body's vertical length. Not only does this violate WP:QUOTEFARM, you also seem to be editing this section as a proxy for changing the result section in the infobox. Not every source that is useful to gauge the result needs to be quoted. There is no need to add repetitive quotes when they don't provide any new perspective about the losses to each side. I understand that the state of the section wasn't ideal even before you started editing, but this takes it too far. Let me propose a standard for adding quotes:
Everything else should be lumped into categories and paraphrased. — Gazoth ( talk) 16:35, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,842104,00.html is a good neutral source about strengths of both militaries also https://www.nytimes.com/1965/09/07/archives/india-possesses-the-larger-army-pakistans-is-outnumbered-825000-to.html also gives good information about relative strengths. They are far better then indian sources in template. The indian strengths should also have (indian claim) written right next to them to avoid deception — Preceding unsigned comment added by سب سے بڑی گڑبڑ ( talk • contribs) 15:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:26, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
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edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The 5th citation has been wrongfully attributed to the book which in the 2nd paragraph from right clearly mentions that Pakistan lost 75 Aircrafts and India 45 ,someone with malafide intentions has edited and cited to his own whims and fancy 117.212.114.159 ( talk) 21:12, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
How to add a picture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ironman993 ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
i want to make some changes kindly grant me permission Clatpolecola ( talk) 15:05, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change
"At 3:30 hours, on 1 September 1965, the entire Chhamb area came under massive artillery bombardment. Pakistan had launched operation Grand Slam and India's Army Headquarter was taken by surprise.[54]"
To
"At 0330 hours, on 1 September 1965, the entire Chhamb area came under massive artillery bombardment. Pakistan had launched operation Grand Slam and India's Army Headquarter was taken by surprise.[54]"
In order to properly denote 24Hr/Military time. Asmarksaz ( talk) 18:30, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Pakistani Pilot MM Alam shot down 6 Indian planes in less than minutes and made world record {Book by Zahid Yaqoob Aamir a defense Analysit} Arslan739 ( talk) 12:45, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Indian army suffered 11,479 casualties in the 1965 war (including ceasefire violations) https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/1965-war-when-foot-soldiers-took-on-the-mighty-pattons-of-pakistan/amp_articleshow/49032326.cms Arslan739 ( talk) 12:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Truthwins018, I am not happy with this edit. The President of India does not have executive responsibility. He was probably giving a guesstimate. It can't be used without validation from a WP:SECONDARY source. And later sources with better information take priority. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:46, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The source mentions recorded conversation between Chester Bowles and president Radhakrishnan. I consider it a valuable source as a president is in direct talks with the military and has exclusive information to the casualties. Considering this, this remains a not made public remark which was only compiled in this book under foreign relations sources. Other articles on Indo-Pak wars directly mention politician claimed figures of casualties. Considering the lack of figures under Indian claims, this to me remains a good source to quote. Casualties not only refers to kills, it also refers to injuries, wounded etc. Truthwins018 ( talk) 23:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay so if i consider your view, it would also be unwise to quote any political account of casualties. Then the infobox on Kargil War page should also be edited to remove the figures given by PM Nawaz Sharif Truthwins018 ( talk) 17:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
If a president cannot quote casualties, your words, so cannot a PM according to your views Truthwins018 ( talk) 12:11, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I request you to provide an official source saying that a Prime Minister is allowed to announce casualties to general public. If so, i find the president to be in a higher ceremonial position then a prime minister, and the remarks of a President are more trustworthy. We can maybe quote as approx. estimate by president radhakrishnan or remove the PM Nawaz Sharif figures on kargil war page Truthwins018 ( talk) 18:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Casulaties on Indian side were much more higher than pakistani side.Whole Indian Tank brigade was destroyed in Chowinda by Pakistan Army suicide Bombers and chowinda is popularly known as graveyard of Indian tanks
Reference-
https://www.globalvillagespace.com/indo-pakistani-1965-war-battle-of-chawinda/://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/battle-chawinda-largest-tank-battle-since-wwii.html
Arslan739 (
talk) 13:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Hi, Listed below are twenty scholarly sources that should be added to the Neutral assessments section.
Twenty scholarly sources on the outcome of the wars of 1947–48 and 1965
|
---|
|
All of these sources are taken from Talk:Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965#Result_field because the consequences were already achieved for it that's why I decided to add it to the page directly but after @Fowler&fowler and other user told me to gain consequences from the talk page so that's why I have open this discussion. NomanPK44 ( talk) 18:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
They should be added as the article seems away from being neutral at any point Truthwins018 ( talk) 12:22, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Agree Yes they should be added. 119.160.118.226 ( talk) 13:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The all the sources of the war are taken from Indian army so that's not true I have sources from australia Abdhann ( talk) 09:49, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Nouman96 ( talk) 10:05, 25 May 2022 (UTC) edit spelling mistakes and provide citation for information provided.
You rarely encounter so biased language on the page, that claims to be an encyclopedia. 2A00:801:2D0:C410:0:0:804D:F6EC ( talk) 22:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
The first Canadair sabre Pakistan received was through iran from ex Luftwaffe stocks after the 1965 war when sanctions were placed by the US kindly remove that claim of the "sabre slayer" getting kills on man CF-86 Xtreme o7 ( talk) 19:23, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The article says that India had upper hand over Pakistan when ceasefire was declared. However this RFC says that this line and citations should be removed so please remove it. 101.53.225.41 ( talk) 15:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
8 number para of war section is saying a regiment Pakistan's pride. I think this para is written by a pakistani, it's not neutral pov? It should be removed. Rock Stone Gold Castle ( talk) 13:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
45.115.58.12 ( talk) 13:31, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
can improve the picture quality
to much text 82.194.193.194 ( talk) 09:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
I am afraid the claim of Indian victory in the infobox is false, pushed through by adducing sources selectively. The most reliable sources, those of academic publishers, consider it a military stalemate:
Listed below are twenty (20) scholarly sources that make the case that the India-Pakistan wars of 1947 and 1965 were military stalemates. By "scholarly" I mean the university presses and in addition Routledge, Wiley, Palgrave, Springer, and Hurst. I have not included trade paperbacks published by Harper Collins, Vintage, and so forth. Here is the list, which I have collapsed on account of its length:
Twenty scholarly sources on the outcome of the wars of 1947–48 and 1965
|
---|
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:45, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler, the amount of quotes that you've added to the article is excessive. You've almost tripled the amount of quotes in "Assessment of losses" section. The twenty-nine quotes in the section take up roughly a third of the body's vertical length. Not only does this violate WP:QUOTEFARM, you also seem to be editing this section as a proxy for changing the result section in the infobox. Not every source that is useful to gauge the result needs to be quoted. There is no need to add repetitive quotes when they don't provide any new perspective about the losses to each side. I understand that the state of the section wasn't ideal even before you started editing, but this takes it too far. Let me propose a standard for adding quotes:
Everything else should be lumped into categories and paraphrased. — Gazoth ( talk) 16:35, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:22, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,842104,00.html is a good neutral source about strengths of both militaries also https://www.nytimes.com/1965/09/07/archives/india-possesses-the-larger-army-pakistans-is-outnumbered-825000-to.html also gives good information about relative strengths. They are far better then indian sources in template. The indian strengths should also have (indian claim) written right next to them to avoid deception — Preceding unsigned comment added by سب سے بڑی گڑبڑ ( talk • contribs) 15:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:26, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The 5th citation has been wrongfully attributed to the book which in the 2nd paragraph from right clearly mentions that Pakistan lost 75 Aircrafts and India 45 ,someone with malafide intentions has edited and cited to his own whims and fancy 117.212.114.159 ( talk) 21:12, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
How to add a picture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ironman993 ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
i want to make some changes kindly grant me permission Clatpolecola ( talk) 15:05, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change
"At 3:30 hours, on 1 September 1965, the entire Chhamb area came under massive artillery bombardment. Pakistan had launched operation Grand Slam and India's Army Headquarter was taken by surprise.[54]"
To
"At 0330 hours, on 1 September 1965, the entire Chhamb area came under massive artillery bombardment. Pakistan had launched operation Grand Slam and India's Army Headquarter was taken by surprise.[54]"
In order to properly denote 24Hr/Military time. Asmarksaz ( talk) 18:30, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Pakistani Pilot MM Alam shot down 6 Indian planes in less than minutes and made world record {Book by Zahid Yaqoob Aamir a defense Analysit} Arslan739 ( talk) 12:45, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Indian army suffered 11,479 casualties in the 1965 war (including ceasefire violations) https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/1965-war-when-foot-soldiers-took-on-the-mighty-pattons-of-pakistan/amp_articleshow/49032326.cms Arslan739 ( talk) 12:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Truthwins018, I am not happy with this edit. The President of India does not have executive responsibility. He was probably giving a guesstimate. It can't be used without validation from a WP:SECONDARY source. And later sources with better information take priority. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:46, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The source mentions recorded conversation between Chester Bowles and president Radhakrishnan. I consider it a valuable source as a president is in direct talks with the military and has exclusive information to the casualties. Considering this, this remains a not made public remark which was only compiled in this book under foreign relations sources. Other articles on Indo-Pak wars directly mention politician claimed figures of casualties. Considering the lack of figures under Indian claims, this to me remains a good source to quote. Casualties not only refers to kills, it also refers to injuries, wounded etc. Truthwins018 ( talk) 23:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay so if i consider your view, it would also be unwise to quote any political account of casualties. Then the infobox on Kargil War page should also be edited to remove the figures given by PM Nawaz Sharif Truthwins018 ( talk) 17:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
If a president cannot quote casualties, your words, so cannot a PM according to your views Truthwins018 ( talk) 12:11, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I request you to provide an official source saying that a Prime Minister is allowed to announce casualties to general public. If so, i find the president to be in a higher ceremonial position then a prime minister, and the remarks of a President are more trustworthy. We can maybe quote as approx. estimate by president radhakrishnan or remove the PM Nawaz Sharif figures on kargil war page Truthwins018 ( talk) 18:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Casulaties on Indian side were much more higher than pakistani side.Whole Indian Tank brigade was destroyed in Chowinda by Pakistan Army suicide Bombers and chowinda is popularly known as graveyard of Indian tanks
Reference-
https://www.globalvillagespace.com/indo-pakistani-1965-war-battle-of-chawinda/://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/battle-chawinda-largest-tank-battle-since-wwii.html
Arslan739 (
talk) 13:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Hi, Listed below are twenty scholarly sources that should be added to the Neutral assessments section.
Twenty scholarly sources on the outcome of the wars of 1947–48 and 1965
|
---|
|
All of these sources are taken from Talk:Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965#Result_field because the consequences were already achieved for it that's why I decided to add it to the page directly but after @Fowler&fowler and other user told me to gain consequences from the talk page so that's why I have open this discussion. NomanPK44 ( talk) 18:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
They should be added as the article seems away from being neutral at any point Truthwins018 ( talk) 12:22, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Agree Yes they should be added. 119.160.118.226 ( talk) 13:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The all the sources of the war are taken from Indian army so that's not true I have sources from australia Abdhann ( talk) 09:49, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Nouman96 ( talk) 10:05, 25 May 2022 (UTC) edit spelling mistakes and provide citation for information provided.
You rarely encounter so biased language on the page, that claims to be an encyclopedia. 2A00:801:2D0:C410:0:0:804D:F6EC ( talk) 22:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
The first Canadair sabre Pakistan received was through iran from ex Luftwaffe stocks after the 1965 war when sanctions were placed by the US kindly remove that claim of the "sabre slayer" getting kills on man CF-86 Xtreme o7 ( talk) 19:23, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The article says that India had upper hand over Pakistan when ceasefire was declared. However this RFC says that this line and citations should be removed so please remove it. 101.53.225.41 ( talk) 15:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
8 number para of war section is saying a regiment Pakistan's pride. I think this para is written by a pakistani, it's not neutral pov? It should be removed. Rock Stone Gold Castle ( talk) 13:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
45.115.58.12 ( talk) 13:31, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
can improve the picture quality
to much text 82.194.193.194 ( talk) 09:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)