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Firstly, both the sources mentioned for Indian Army and State Forces KIA figures are now dead links and therefore, the data is no longer verifiable. Secondly, the Instrument of Accession was signed between Kashmir and India before the latter went to war with Pakistan. After the accession of Kashmir, the JAK Rifles were integrated into the Indian Army and therefore, it is highly improbable that the Government of India will officially publish casualty figures excluding JAK Rifles figures (contrary to what the article currently indicates). Because of the ambiguity and lack of verifiability, I'm removing the mentioned figures and replacing them by U.S. Congress Library figures. -- King Zebu ( talk) 06:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
all historical sources agree that the valley of Kashmir was a mughal territory but the highlands of Ladakh and the hills of Jammu were FULLY INDEPENDENT DOMAINS.There were several unsuccessful Mughal attacks against Ladakh and only one partially successful adventure where the Ladakhis were assisted in their war against the Tibetans by the Mughals and agreed to pay the Mughals some taxes in return.This promise was promptly withdrawn by Ladakh and it reverted to its fully independent status.Similarly the mountain based kingdoms of Jammu,owing to their geographical location ,in vry heavily hilly and forested terrain forever remained beyonf the reach of Mughal central asian cavalry tactics.[Please see Airavat Singh's excellent source on the military history of these petty but srong kingdoms].This was the primary reason for those places staying Hindu.Any Mughal involvement ,at its peak,was as allies at best.
Moreover the Sikhs have been projected as invaders and interventionists in the background section.The truth is,it is Sikh activity that countered orthodox jihadi proselytization by the Mughals from completely eradicating Hinduism from the valley of Kashmir.
Greetings from Skylark and congrats on your good-work for our motherland as a soldier and now as a wikipedian.Please let me know your thoughts. Skylark2008 ( talk) 06:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC) Skylark2008
Check any good work by Ramesh Chandra Majumdar,Jadunath Sarkar or by Airavat Singh.Also check the history of Ladakh from any Bitish historian's work.Any work unaffialiated to marxist communist clique is going to attest to te truth.Thank you Skylark2008 ( talk) 08:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)Skylark2008
I am contesting the statement"These small states, ruled by Rajput kings, were vassals of the Mughal Empire since 1757." I am challenging a very nebulous comment on this important article based on a very well recorded event namely the death of a Mughal emperor whose defeat by the Marathas and demise is widely held to be the start of the decline of the said empire.There is very little chance that the empire gained ANY new territory half a century after his death.By this time the Maratha and Sikh powers had acquired ascendancy over entire South Asia.As for the sources they are as follows- 1.Mughal history- Lane-Poole, Stanley (1906). History of India: From Mohammedan Conquest to the Reign of Akbar the Great (Vol. 3). London, Grolier society.  Lane-Poole, Stanley (1906). History of India: From Reign of Akbar the Great to the Fall of Moghul Empire (Vol. 4). London, Grolier society.  Owen, Sidney J (1912). The Fall of the Mogul Empire. London, J. Murray.  Burgess, James (1913). The Chronology of Modern India for Four Hundred Years from the Close of the Fifteenth Century, A.D. 1494–1894.. John Grant, Edinburgh. 2.Maratha history- Kasar, D.B. – Rigveda to Raigarh making of Shivaji the great, Mumbai: Manudevi Prakashan (2005)  Apte, B.K. (editor) – Chhatrapati Shivaji: Coronation Tercentenary Commemoration Volume, Bombay: University of Bombay (1974–75)  James Grant Duff – A History of the Mahrattas, 3 vols. London, Longmans, Rees, Orme, Brown, and Green (1826) ISBN 81-7020-956-0 3.Sikh history-^ The Khyber Pass: A History of Empire and Invasion, (Docherty,p.187)
Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Lord of the Five Rivers, By Jean-Marie Lafont. (Oxford University Press. Date:2002, ISBN 0-19-566111-7). Skylark2008 ( talk) 00:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark
I emphasize that the Mughal state had NO EFFECTIVE control over the modern state of Jammu-Kashmir outside of the Kashmir valley.The modern geo-political unit ,as we know it was forged by the Dogra Rajput clan of the Jammu tract.They had their traditional seat of power in the Jammu district.From there they spread their influence all over Jammu.Then they helped the Sikhs in ejecting the Afghans from the valley of Kashmir where they had lodged themselves after ejecting the Mughals.At this time the Dogras accepted Sikh suzerainty.Thus the territories they conquered became parts of the Sikh empire.After the decline of the Sikhs,the Dogras negotiated directly with the British East India Company.Thus they became sovereign power in the Jammu tracts and the Kashmir valley.Using this as a base they eventually conquered Ladakh,Baltistan,Gilgit,the Dardic states of Chitral,Hunza etc.Ultimately all these disparate ethnic areas were brought under a unified political unit based in Srinagar under the Dogra Rajputs.Thus the entity called Jammu-Kashmir was literally created by the Dogra Rajputs.Any pretense of Mughal power in the state outside of Kashmir valley and its subsequent influence in shaping the political trajectory of the area is frivolus and potentially p.o.v.Any Mughal influence can be conclusively proved in the Kashmir valley,no doubt,but that’s the limit of the said influence.All the other political units in the area were independent and contributed to the politico-ethno-cultural tapestry of the region.Subsequently all these differences contributed to the complexity of the question of the inclusion of the different parts of the state to India or Pakistan.Thanks. Skylark2008 ( talk) 01:14, 9 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark
Thats a nice reference.However they only bear out the point that any effective influence by the Mughals on Jammu area was transitory and uncertain.And certainly NOT after 1757 as the article states.Any influence was hotly contested and permanently thrown off after a point of time.The influence on Kashmir velley is however unquestionable.BTW thx to Ashlin for this reference. Skylark2008 ( talk) 09:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark I suggest changing the date 1765 as it is clearly misleading as to the start date of Mughal influence-being effectively a period of Mughal decline.Further I suggest changing the status of the Jammu hill states to that of autonomous entities prior to the emergence of Sikh power.Mention may also be made of the continuous resistance offered from these otherwise small states to successive invasions from the North -West.Awaiting other editors'opinion. Skylark2008 ( talk) 01:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark
vassals with princes as hostages in the Mughal courts. The gazetteer also states how the influence was lost - all in the history of Jammu state. AshLin ( talk) 02:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC) That is not POV bashing.First of all,the date 1757 is completely off the point,as is even evident by the linked-article.Next,the keeping of the princes as hostages n the Mughal court is a direct evidence that the said tracts were NOT tributary vassals but active enemy states.The hostage keeping strategy was used to keep in check an unpacified enemy-as was in the case of Tipu Sultan many years later.The sons of Tipu were kept as hostages by the British as a gurrantee for Tipu's non-aggression.Once again ,modern Indian histriography as mentioned in the above sources,has conclusively argued that much of Indian history was deliberately misinterpreted by the colonial power to further its interests.Even going by the source,which ,I think is quite a good one,the date 1757 as laid out in the article is grossly wrong and the status of the hill states was always autonomous.The first true integration of those states was by the Sikh kingdom of Ranjit Singh.The credit for building up Jammu and Kashmir state goes to the Dogra family of Jammu. Skylark2008 ( talk) 06:05, 17 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark BTW thnks to whoever heard me and changed the offensive date to "since the time of Akbar....".At least a part of the wrong is undone.Waiting for someone to put the political status of those hill-states in the proper perspective. Skylark2008 ( talk) 06:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark.
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.kashmir-information.com/Storm/chapter7.html. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 10:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
removed POV misleading text after verification from the cited text in the article http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/apac/photocoll/g/019pho000000394u00076000.html . The Cited texts clearly stated that Ranjit Singh was the Ruler of the area before the British Conquered it and placed Their own ruler. The British had placed their own rulers at a number of provinces that they had conquered so that the administration of the newly conquered state would be easier for them . The Article stated that there waas no Ruler of the resion prior to this . this is wrong information, the area was not without a ruler. King Ranjit Singh was the ruler of the region. -- Ãℬig XЯaÉ£ 15:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Well Everyone on WikiPedia can challenge COntent if they are unverifiable and the content appears to be a 'Forum chat'. I have also added some of [citation needed] tags as I seriously feel that the section is not based on Verifiable citations but based on Forum Talk. The section needs a cleaning and proper citations . There are some serious claims made in the article that has to be properly cited in order to avoid removal. At the moment its purely based on forum chat and opinions, the other serious claims made in the article needs thorough cleaning and redressal Hence i am challenging these very serious claims. for e.g.
Its an established fact that prior to British rule Kashmir was a princely state and always had a ruler or was a part of an empire. I would welcome If proper citations are provided for these. I would also ask Hassanhn5 not to revert the citations as we know reverting such edits can be claimed as edit war. its not upto u to present them .other editors can help giving the citations and improving the sections. The presence of citations will improve the article and the content will change accordingly so that it does not appear a forum chat. Kindly dont make your own rules like you cant add citations tags read Wikipedia:Verifiability. -- Ãℬig XЯaÉ£ 20:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Why is there no mention made of the Maharaja of kashmir's role in the article? It appears to completely ignore what he did. Or is someone trying to cover up on Wikipedia? Satanclawz ( talk) 14:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the flag of Azad Kashmir and also listed the tribal militias as a separate belligerent group because, lacking appropriate sources and a detailed discussion in the body of the article, we are assuming that the Pashtun tribes and the Pakistani state were one and the same (but putting the flag of Azad Kashmir contradicts this). Also there was no such entity as Azad Kashmir when the war broke out so we cannot use the flag here. Zuggernaut ( talk) 13:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
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Can either of the editors who keep editwarring this shitty template into this article explain how a war between two nations for territorial conquest of Kashmir has anything to do with separatism? Darkness Shines ( talk) 15:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An editor has added a template to this article which apparently deals with the Kashmir separatist movement. There is now a dispute as to how a war of conquest by Pakistan has anything to do with Kashmir separatism. Does this template belong on this article?
Followed by these three obvious ones:
This is the Sumit Ganguly source you are trying to quote, it says that the wars were bilateral conflicts
The Crisis in Kashmir: Portents of War, Hopes of Peace in page 3 it says The people of either Pakistan-held "Azad Kashmir" or Indian-held Kasmir were not active participants in the bilateral conflicts. Indeed in 1965.... one more for you
India, Pakistan, and the Kashmir Dispute page 113 Accounts of the Kashmiri Muslim separatism uprising in the popular media generally date its formal onset to a series of antigovernment demonstartions, strikes, and sporadic violent attacks on isolated government targets that began at scattered locations in the valley of Kasmir in July 1988 This war of 1947 has nothing to do with Kashmir separatism, it was started much later by the pakistan assisted groups -- sarvajna ( talk) 03:17, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
After India and Pakistan were partitioned in 1947, the Hindu maharajah of Kashmir elected to have Kashmir join India, despite its overwhelmingly Muslim majority population which were opposed to this move. The United Nations ordered a referendum on the matter which was never held. Kashmiri separatists, allegedly armed and supported by Pakistan, have been fighting ever since for their independence from India and many would apparently prefer independence from Pakistan also. This dispute has its roots in nationalism, although it is flavoured by religious sources.
— Jamila Hussain, Islam: Its Law and Society (2004), p. 60
Mar4d ( talk) 18:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
This is why Wikipedia has become an untrustworthy source of information! Almost everyone in this thread should step away and let less involved editors reassert an encyclopaedic perspective, which is necessarily dispassionate about localised interpretations.
It is a perspective that should have no regard for the nationalist, separatist, or chauvinist sensitivities of the hot-heads with emotional attachments to these events. Why would anyone but the people involved in this dispute care about whom to blame for what actually happened? Cite facts about what happened, and point-counterpoint interpretations. Then be done with it and move on.
Don't bother lecturing me about history or some peculiar neckbeard interpretation of Wikipedia etiquette. I am here solely because of the automatic invitation to comment initiated by the template. I have no desire to be involved in this willful effort to politicise and re-ignite ethnic shitfights. Peter S Strempel | Talk 01:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I have removed a highly one-sided paragraph from the lead which ignores the dispute that existed on India's accession of Kashmir and only depicts the accounts of the war post-invasion. Discuss here and do not revert. Mar4d ( talk) 12:22, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Can someone please make it clear on what needs to be added or deleted? The whole discussion seems to be very vague for a person like me who has started watching this page very recently. Thanks - sarvajna ( talk) 13:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
there were some fantastic battles fought in the early phase, it seems that it would worth some more detail such as we find here.
http://ikashmir.net/pakraid1947/shalteng.html http://www.sikhreview.org/december2003/book.htm
The book pays glowing tributes to the bravery and gallantry of officers, JCO’s and Jawans who faced the hardships and challenges cheerfully and never flinched from service to their country. Indeed 1 Sikh saved Srinagar in 1947. Amarinder Singh is all praise for it, “By their courage, skill and devotion to duty, they had prevented the city from falling into the hands of the raiders and denied them the airfield….â€
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-6/sandhu.html
it was a pretty fantastic set of battles fought by a small units, ahead of the bigger fights.
-- Patbahn ( talk) 18:56, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
"Prior to 1815, the area now known as "Jammu and Kashmir" comprised 22 small independent states (16 Hindu and 6 Muslim) carved out of territories controlled by the Amir (King) of Afghanistan, combined with those of local small rulers. These were collectively referred to as the "Punjab Hill States". These small states, ruled by Rajput kings, were variously independent, vassals of the Mughal Empire since the time of Emperor Akbar or sometimes controlled from Kangra state in the Himachal area. Following the decline of the Mughals, turbulence in Kangra and Gorkha invasions, the hill states fell successively under the control of the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh." The person who introduced this paragraph conveniently forgets that of the hill states, only Jammu, Ladakh, Hunza, Nagar and Gilgit are in the current territory of Kashmir and rest of them are actually in the current Indian state of Himachal Pradesh. I don't know where Chitral, Amb and those fit in. And this paragraph is unwarranted since the at the time of the discussion, only three kingdoms existed in Kashmir area - Kashmir, Hunza and Nagar; Hunza and Nagar as vassals of Jammu and Kashmir. If at all the history starts, it should start with events happening from 1920 or 1930 and not 1815. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.220.251.248 ( talk) 12:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not Indian victory in this war Pakistan got victory because half of Kashmir occupied by Pakistan and India also loose it Asfand yar Asfand ( talk) 15:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
The infobox seems to have a number of issues. As far as I can see there are three major issues:
MBlaze, you said yourself that India "recaptured lost grounds." That is not "gaining" or "conquering." Those terms are only used when new territory is gained which didn't originally belong to the country. So they have no place here. Blue PapaBoy, Sources are always necessary, especially when the issues are contentious. - Kautilya3 ( talk) 18:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Well ! That was just a typo mistake ! i mentioned well in the brackets that which rebels and pak troops captured by defeating maharaja forces ! Indian forces came later in the war and manage to gain 2/3 Kashmir !
MBlaze Lightning (
talk) 11:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC) This editor is a
sock-puppet
More refs have been added to infobox regarding causalities. They all seem reliable. D4iNa4 ( talk) 12:13, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
References
Kautilya3, Sorry for the necro, but it seems that the wording in the infobox has changed since this discussion. Since no one has been able to produce reliable sources yet, I am reverting the territorial changes back to what they were before, as it is the most factually correct wording. SpicyBiryani (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I am removing the number of wounded/killed from infobox as the sources are not third party. They are Indian sources and as we have seen earlier in numerous discussions, neutral sources are required to source these claims. Regards FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 04:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
2nd para in "Partition of India" section seems like original research. In short it is written that "Indian forces occupied much of Kashmir mainly because for some reasons Pakistan did not manage to send troops to Kashmir in due time and by that time India occupied that part". Which seems to be historically incorrect, we need to verify the source.-- Human3015 TALKÂ 18:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
As far I am concencered that 2/3 rd kashmir was signed by hari Singh to india not captured ....while Pakistan captured it in war Libra bro ( talk) 10:32, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
I have fully protected the article for 3 days; participants are invited to make good use of the talk-page. Lectonar ( talk) 12:51, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
I think a point of view tag needs to added as the infobox is highly biased towards figures conjured up by Indian sources not even one Pakistani source is provided what do you guys above think? 5.65.190.98 ( talk) 12:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
meta-level discussion
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I am not sure whos sock you are but I can tell you are pushing the pov of a banned user with your behaviour I suggest you start providing proper arguments about why Indian sources should be trusted and neutral ones ignored. 5.65.190.98 ( talk) 12:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We need to discuss the vandalism this page has gone through with the actions of Knightwarrior25 socks and we also need to discuss what role a sock enabler such as Kautilya3 has on these pages maybe its a way of hiding behind a sock so to avoid attention to his own pov? or maybe he has a connection to the socks themselves. 5.71.195.155 ( talk) 11:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
As per policy that I have linked above, and you don't appear to have read, any user can revert a blocked user's edits, and any user can reinstate them. The user that reinstates them takes responsibility. So, I am declaring now, to save you the trouble, that I will take responsibility for all of MBlaze's edits. So, you should revert them only if you have policy-based reasons to do so. Any revert that says "reverting blocked user" or "reverting sock edit" will be undone. If you don't follow the policy, I will be taking you to WP:ANI. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
meta-level discussion
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Kautilya3, going by your (selective) understanding of the policy, I think the easiest way for someone to push a certain POV is (step by step guide as seen by MBL's modus-operandi and your support to his edits):
Now Kautilya3, if this is how you want to build Wikipedia, I agree with your debate about keeping MBL's edits. If not, they cant stay. Most importantly, if the edits were so legit, there was no need for them to be added through a sock account. A clean account would have sufficed. But then the editor knew that his tendentious, contentious and POV-edits shall be challenged resulting into edit-wars and reports at ANI and ABPIRA sanctions. So, he decided not to risk his master account for such disruptive editing. Now you by supporting him are also doing the same. BTW, the policy you mention says: ....[Only] obviously helpful changes, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand, but the presumption in ambiguous cases "should be to revert." Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a blocked editor' (sometimes called proxy editing or proxying) unless they can show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits. New accounts which engage in the same behavior as a banned editor or blocked account in the same context, and who appear to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, are subject to the remedies applied to the editor whose behavior they are imitating.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlÉʇ 18:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
So you want to waste time? If you dont know these basic, what else are you doing
here? BTW, this may be helpful
WP:CONSENSUS:
Also:
But you dont seem to be doing it.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlÉʇ 21:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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@ Kautilya3 You seem to be a mature editor so I think this will be easy for you to understand. So here goes. Whenever a serial vandal and socker introduces a POV text and tries to disrupt wikipedia with his battleground behavior, he does it knowing that he is going to be caught one day, therefore according to policy the usual remedy is to REVERT ALL SOCKS. I hope the bold text was easy to understand. Now if an editor who is not a sockpuppet, like yourself, wants to reinstate the text he is NOT ALLOWED to by pass editing policies. I would like to make this clear by repeating myself for the sake of clarity, reinstating a socks edits does not mean you can bypass wikipedia guidelines. The policy that you need to follow for adding anything is quite clear. As per WP:BURDEN you need to provide the other editors with suitable evidence that your text should be added. Just because a socking vandal added something does not make it a shoe in, rather it should be reinstated after a lengthy discussion with extra suspicion. So as per norm, I am reverting your insertion and asking that you follow WP:BRD and provide us with some reasons to include your text. As you do not own wikipedia(YET), you're "taking responsibility" for a vandals edits means nothing to me or to anyone else. To us, you just reinstated a very suspicious piece of text, so you will need to provide reasoning as to why you think this should be added. FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 08:09, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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Since it is being stated in the article lead that Pakistan started the war (with no credible source) then I think the best way forward would be to include both perspectives on why and how the Pakistani forces entered the Kashmiri revolution. Victria Schofield presents both perspectives here:
India's and Pakistan's, both perspectives are provided.
Note that Victoria Schofield's books on Kashmir are known to be one of the best and most neutral. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@This is an area of dispute too. And will actually help clear up our understanding of the rest of the war events. I will be back to disussions on Talk page when I wake up. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Having consulted several sources, I am of the opinion that it is a mistake to draw the line at the tribal invasion. The antecedents of the tribal invasion have full bearing on the "war" that followed. I would be quite happy to extend the scope of the article to all the conflicts that have followed from June 1947 onwards, when the decision to partition India was taken. I am also happy for both Indian and Pakistani sources to be included as long as they satisfy the requirements of WP:HISTRS.
It is not clear what bearing the Jammu massacres have had on the war. I will create a new article on the Jammu massacres, something I have been wanting to do for a long time, and then we can summarise it here as necessary. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 08:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
@Kautilya3
I invite you to review my changes to this article. If you are unable to find my references please tell me and I will link them up here. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 12:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
MBlaze Lightning reverted some of the new material added recently. I don't agree with his rationale about Christopher Snedden, who is a perfectly reliable source, but he has a point that this is undue here. I do intend to add a section on the Poonch uprising in the Kashmir conflict page, that is where it should be discussed. The Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 certainly began with the Pashtun invasion. What happened earlier is merely background. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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Well, TripWire, if I try to find out what interest you have in the Poonch revolt, you are nowhere to be found in articles like Azad Kashmir, History of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan, Christopher Snedden, G. K. Reddy, or even Kashmir conflict. In fact, it is hard to find any content you have added anywhere. In fact, it doesn't appear that you are here to build a Wikipedia, but rather you are here to obstruct those who do. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously by Wikipedians, I would advise you to first prove yourself by producing some content in areas you claim expertise. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 16:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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@ TripWire: In this revert, revert, you call it misleading edit summary.
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@MBlaze Lightning: Please explain how exactly the massacre of Jammu's Muslims is UNDE to include here? I am familiar with the rules of DUE and UNDUE. That massacre instigated the anti-Maharajah conflict. This seems to be a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 12:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
References
@ TripWire and MBlaze Lightning: Talha Zubair asked me to review his new content quite a while ago, which I am doing and I will continue to do. Your reverts in interim are interfering in the process. If you proceed in this way, the page will get protected as it happened on the other pages. I request you to voice your concerns here, and not interfere with the article text. These issues cannot be settled by edit-warring. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:11, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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@MBlaze: Keep your accusations to yourself. I used a different source to you which gave the simple statement that General Thapa surrendered Skardu. If you have used another source to add extra info then rest assured I will also use another source to add more info abt the same event. And remove your Kashmir Valley people wanting to be India reference. YOU need to get consensus for it. IMO it is WP:UNDUE because the valley population had no role to play during the Poonch uprising. Anything, if at all, Valley related happened then it happened after the tribal invasion. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 12:33, 4 April 2016 (UTC) Yes, I am requesting all parties to discuss objections on the talk page instead of reverting. No exceptions. IPs included. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@MBlaze Lightning: I also used this source about Skardu surrender: Barua, Pradeep (2005). The State at War in South Asia. U of Nebraska Press. pp. 164–165. ISBN 9780803213449.
This one said Indian army surrendered. Thats the main source I read and used. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:03, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@MBlaze Lightning: Yes I believe it is WP:UNDUE. Not because its false. But because it doesn't fit in this section. Poonch and Gilgit revolted and were the epicentre of the anti-Maharajah rebellion, so it makes sense to have their pro-Pakistan sentiment there. However the Kashmir Valley people were largely silent during this phase. However if you want to mention them as part of the resistance to the tribals which happened later later on then feel free to include their 'pro-India' (actually pro-Sheikh Abdullah) sentiment. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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Too much space was wasted above on meta-level discussions rather than anything to do with the Christopher Snedden source. To get back to the topic, the newspaper review cited in the article calls the book "alternative interpretation of history." The key academic review of the book cited in the Christopher Snedden article calls it a "new spin" and mentions that Snedden ignores a large part of the evidence. Satish Kumar disagrees that an internal revolt in the State by itself cannot internationalise the dispute. All these assessments indicate that Snedden is putting forward new theories which go against the mainstream views. So this is in the nature of a WP:PRIMARY source.
My own assessment is that the book is primarily on the history of Azad Kashmir (The Untold Story of the People of Azad Kashmir). It is based on the research carried out in Muzaffarabad, according to the author (see Acknowledgements, page xi). Indian sources and British sources are mostly ignored by the author. For these reasons, this book gives a partial view of the 1947 events, and the summative judgements made in it are WP:UNDUE for our article. We are required to represent the scholarly consensus, not a single author's views. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:55, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
@ MalikAttaRasool: You have changed "Indo-Pakistani" to "Indo-Pak", which introduces change of terminology from the page title. This should not be done.
Dear Kautalia do I need to quote the work of western scholars to convince you that how the world is used? Reddy, C. Rammanohar. "Indo–Pak defence spending." S Asian J (2005). Gehlot, N. S., and Anu Satsangi. Indo-Pak Relations: Twists and Turns from Partition to Agra Summit and Beyond. Deep and Deep Publications, 2004. Kalis, Naseer Ahmed, and Shaheen Showkat Dar. "Geo-political Significance of Kashmir: An overview of Indo-Pak Relations." IOSR Journal of Humanities and Social Science. I am sure you are convinced for correct usage of Indo-Pak. So please relax. any one who understand Indo will surely know Pak. let us not mislead our youngsters by incorrect use of terms. I call upon author of article to correct the title. MalikAttaRasool ( talk) 07:24, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
In this edit, I have added the British commanding officers of both the Indian and Pakistani armies, with their allegiance noted as the British Indian army. The reason for this was subsequently explained in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947#Partition of India section.
Since then, a number of IP edits attempted to change their allegiance variously to "Pakistan" or "United Kingdom". These are wrong. The officers were the officers of the British Indian army who stayed on to serve the Indian/Pakistani armies as a service to the newly formed dominions. They reported to the Supreme Commander
Claude Auchinleck, who in turn reported to the Joint Defence Council of the two dominions as well as the British cabinet. In Auchinleck's words, British officers could not be forced or ordered by the Indian Dominion governments to take actions that would be repugnant to their code of behaviour as officers or to their allegiance to the King.
[1] So, it is not proper to regard them as members of the Indian/Pakistani armies. Neither did the officers take orders from the British army. After they returned to Britain, some of them were absorbed into the British army. However, they were not members of the British army when they were in the subcontinent.
If the IP's continue to alter the affiliations without explanations or discussion, I will ask for the article to be semi-protected. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:18, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
References
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Does the three day sack of Baramula deserve it's own section? The suffering of the people of Baramula for three days bought time for Indian Army forces to reinforce Srinigar. -- Patbahn ( talk) 04:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The photo titled "Indian soldiers during the 1947–1948 war." is from WW1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viperov ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
It is important to note that George VI was the head of both the Dominions during the war (a rare occurence in history), and thus the ex-Raj officials and newly appointed Governors-General all were fighting against each other (trying not to give the upper hand to the other party). Please add George VI as one of the belligerents (as head of state, with the Union Jack flag) in the infobox on both sides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.69.241.69 ( talk) 13:30, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
In June 1948, Brigadier Rajendra Singh, led the Ist Grenadiers, accompanied by the 2/4 Gurkha and captured Gurez. 1n 1949 Brigadier Rajendra Singh was the military administrator of Jammu and Kashmir for 2 years. Operation Snipe involves a mountain terrain warfare going up and through the Vijji Galli in Kashmir and this is a subset of Operation Eraze which leads to the capture of Gurez. The Operation Eraze continued to control the Zojilla Pass and some other critical passes.Φ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spockbuddha ( talk • contribs) 17:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Firstly, both the sources mentioned for Indian Army and State Forces KIA figures are now dead links and therefore, the data is no longer verifiable. Secondly, the Instrument of Accession was signed between Kashmir and India before the latter went to war with Pakistan. After the accession of Kashmir, the JAK Rifles were integrated into the Indian Army and therefore, it is highly improbable that the Government of India will officially publish casualty figures excluding JAK Rifles figures (contrary to what the article currently indicates). Because of the ambiguity and lack of verifiability, I'm removing the mentioned figures and replacing them by U.S. Congress Library figures. -- King Zebu ( talk) 06:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
all historical sources agree that the valley of Kashmir was a mughal territory but the highlands of Ladakh and the hills of Jammu were FULLY INDEPENDENT DOMAINS.There were several unsuccessful Mughal attacks against Ladakh and only one partially successful adventure where the Ladakhis were assisted in their war against the Tibetans by the Mughals and agreed to pay the Mughals some taxes in return.This promise was promptly withdrawn by Ladakh and it reverted to its fully independent status.Similarly the mountain based kingdoms of Jammu,owing to their geographical location ,in vry heavily hilly and forested terrain forever remained beyonf the reach of Mughal central asian cavalry tactics.[Please see Airavat Singh's excellent source on the military history of these petty but srong kingdoms].This was the primary reason for those places staying Hindu.Any Mughal involvement ,at its peak,was as allies at best.
Moreover the Sikhs have been projected as invaders and interventionists in the background section.The truth is,it is Sikh activity that countered orthodox jihadi proselytization by the Mughals from completely eradicating Hinduism from the valley of Kashmir.
Greetings from Skylark and congrats on your good-work for our motherland as a soldier and now as a wikipedian.Please let me know your thoughts. Skylark2008 ( talk) 06:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC) Skylark2008
Check any good work by Ramesh Chandra Majumdar,Jadunath Sarkar or by Airavat Singh.Also check the history of Ladakh from any Bitish historian's work.Any work unaffialiated to marxist communist clique is going to attest to te truth.Thank you Skylark2008 ( talk) 08:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)Skylark2008
I am contesting the statement"These small states, ruled by Rajput kings, were vassals of the Mughal Empire since 1757." I am challenging a very nebulous comment on this important article based on a very well recorded event namely the death of a Mughal emperor whose defeat by the Marathas and demise is widely held to be the start of the decline of the said empire.There is very little chance that the empire gained ANY new territory half a century after his death.By this time the Maratha and Sikh powers had acquired ascendancy over entire South Asia.As for the sources they are as follows- 1.Mughal history- Lane-Poole, Stanley (1906). History of India: From Mohammedan Conquest to the Reign of Akbar the Great (Vol. 3). London, Grolier society.  Lane-Poole, Stanley (1906). History of India: From Reign of Akbar the Great to the Fall of Moghul Empire (Vol. 4). London, Grolier society.  Owen, Sidney J (1912). The Fall of the Mogul Empire. London, J. Murray.  Burgess, James (1913). The Chronology of Modern India for Four Hundred Years from the Close of the Fifteenth Century, A.D. 1494–1894.. John Grant, Edinburgh. 2.Maratha history- Kasar, D.B. – Rigveda to Raigarh making of Shivaji the great, Mumbai: Manudevi Prakashan (2005)  Apte, B.K. (editor) – Chhatrapati Shivaji: Coronation Tercentenary Commemoration Volume, Bombay: University of Bombay (1974–75)  James Grant Duff – A History of the Mahrattas, 3 vols. London, Longmans, Rees, Orme, Brown, and Green (1826) ISBN 81-7020-956-0 3.Sikh history-^ The Khyber Pass: A History of Empire and Invasion, (Docherty,p.187)
Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Lord of the Five Rivers, By Jean-Marie Lafont. (Oxford University Press. Date:2002, ISBN 0-19-566111-7). Skylark2008 ( talk) 00:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark
I emphasize that the Mughal state had NO EFFECTIVE control over the modern state of Jammu-Kashmir outside of the Kashmir valley.The modern geo-political unit ,as we know it was forged by the Dogra Rajput clan of the Jammu tract.They had their traditional seat of power in the Jammu district.From there they spread their influence all over Jammu.Then they helped the Sikhs in ejecting the Afghans from the valley of Kashmir where they had lodged themselves after ejecting the Mughals.At this time the Dogras accepted Sikh suzerainty.Thus the territories they conquered became parts of the Sikh empire.After the decline of the Sikhs,the Dogras negotiated directly with the British East India Company.Thus they became sovereign power in the Jammu tracts and the Kashmir valley.Using this as a base they eventually conquered Ladakh,Baltistan,Gilgit,the Dardic states of Chitral,Hunza etc.Ultimately all these disparate ethnic areas were brought under a unified political unit based in Srinagar under the Dogra Rajputs.Thus the entity called Jammu-Kashmir was literally created by the Dogra Rajputs.Any pretense of Mughal power in the state outside of Kashmir valley and its subsequent influence in shaping the political trajectory of the area is frivolus and potentially p.o.v.Any Mughal influence can be conclusively proved in the Kashmir valley,no doubt,but that’s the limit of the said influence.All the other political units in the area were independent and contributed to the politico-ethno-cultural tapestry of the region.Subsequently all these differences contributed to the complexity of the question of the inclusion of the different parts of the state to India or Pakistan.Thanks. Skylark2008 ( talk) 01:14, 9 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark
Thats a nice reference.However they only bear out the point that any effective influence by the Mughals on Jammu area was transitory and uncertain.And certainly NOT after 1757 as the article states.Any influence was hotly contested and permanently thrown off after a point of time.The influence on Kashmir velley is however unquestionable.BTW thx to Ashlin for this reference. Skylark2008 ( talk) 09:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark I suggest changing the date 1765 as it is clearly misleading as to the start date of Mughal influence-being effectively a period of Mughal decline.Further I suggest changing the status of the Jammu hill states to that of autonomous entities prior to the emergence of Sikh power.Mention may also be made of the continuous resistance offered from these otherwise small states to successive invasions from the North -West.Awaiting other editors'opinion. Skylark2008 ( talk) 01:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark
vassals with princes as hostages in the Mughal courts. The gazetteer also states how the influence was lost - all in the history of Jammu state. AshLin ( talk) 02:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC) That is not POV bashing.First of all,the date 1757 is completely off the point,as is even evident by the linked-article.Next,the keeping of the princes as hostages n the Mughal court is a direct evidence that the said tracts were NOT tributary vassals but active enemy states.The hostage keeping strategy was used to keep in check an unpacified enemy-as was in the case of Tipu Sultan many years later.The sons of Tipu were kept as hostages by the British as a gurrantee for Tipu's non-aggression.Once again ,modern Indian histriography as mentioned in the above sources,has conclusively argued that much of Indian history was deliberately misinterpreted by the colonial power to further its interests.Even going by the source,which ,I think is quite a good one,the date 1757 as laid out in the article is grossly wrong and the status of the hill states was always autonomous.The first true integration of those states was by the Sikh kingdom of Ranjit Singh.The credit for building up Jammu and Kashmir state goes to the Dogra family of Jammu. Skylark2008 ( talk) 06:05, 17 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark BTW thnks to whoever heard me and changed the offensive date to "since the time of Akbar....".At least a part of the wrong is undone.Waiting for someone to put the political status of those hill-states in the proper perspective. Skylark2008 ( talk) 06:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)Skylark.
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.kashmir-information.com/Storm/chapter7.html. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 10:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
removed POV misleading text after verification from the cited text in the article http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/apac/photocoll/g/019pho000000394u00076000.html . The Cited texts clearly stated that Ranjit Singh was the Ruler of the area before the British Conquered it and placed Their own ruler. The British had placed their own rulers at a number of provinces that they had conquered so that the administration of the newly conquered state would be easier for them . The Article stated that there waas no Ruler of the resion prior to this . this is wrong information, the area was not without a ruler. King Ranjit Singh was the ruler of the region. -- Ãℬig XЯaÉ£ 15:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Well Everyone on WikiPedia can challenge COntent if they are unverifiable and the content appears to be a 'Forum chat'. I have also added some of [citation needed] tags as I seriously feel that the section is not based on Verifiable citations but based on Forum Talk. The section needs a cleaning and proper citations . There are some serious claims made in the article that has to be properly cited in order to avoid removal. At the moment its purely based on forum chat and opinions, the other serious claims made in the article needs thorough cleaning and redressal Hence i am challenging these very serious claims. for e.g.
Its an established fact that prior to British rule Kashmir was a princely state and always had a ruler or was a part of an empire. I would welcome If proper citations are provided for these. I would also ask Hassanhn5 not to revert the citations as we know reverting such edits can be claimed as edit war. its not upto u to present them .other editors can help giving the citations and improving the sections. The presence of citations will improve the article and the content will change accordingly so that it does not appear a forum chat. Kindly dont make your own rules like you cant add citations tags read Wikipedia:Verifiability. -- Ãℬig XЯaÉ£ 20:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Why is there no mention made of the Maharaja of kashmir's role in the article? It appears to completely ignore what he did. Or is someone trying to cover up on Wikipedia? Satanclawz ( talk) 14:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the flag of Azad Kashmir and also listed the tribal militias as a separate belligerent group because, lacking appropriate sources and a detailed discussion in the body of the article, we are assuming that the Pashtun tribes and the Pakistani state were one and the same (but putting the flag of Azad Kashmir contradicts this). Also there was no such entity as Azad Kashmir when the war broke out so we cannot use the flag here. Zuggernaut ( talk) 13:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
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Can either of the editors who keep editwarring this shitty template into this article explain how a war between two nations for territorial conquest of Kashmir has anything to do with separatism? Darkness Shines ( talk) 15:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An editor has added a template to this article which apparently deals with the Kashmir separatist movement. There is now a dispute as to how a war of conquest by Pakistan has anything to do with Kashmir separatism. Does this template belong on this article?
Followed by these three obvious ones:
This is the Sumit Ganguly source you are trying to quote, it says that the wars were bilateral conflicts
The Crisis in Kashmir: Portents of War, Hopes of Peace in page 3 it says The people of either Pakistan-held "Azad Kashmir" or Indian-held Kasmir were not active participants in the bilateral conflicts. Indeed in 1965.... one more for you
India, Pakistan, and the Kashmir Dispute page 113 Accounts of the Kashmiri Muslim separatism uprising in the popular media generally date its formal onset to a series of antigovernment demonstartions, strikes, and sporadic violent attacks on isolated government targets that began at scattered locations in the valley of Kasmir in July 1988 This war of 1947 has nothing to do with Kashmir separatism, it was started much later by the pakistan assisted groups -- sarvajna ( talk) 03:17, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
After India and Pakistan were partitioned in 1947, the Hindu maharajah of Kashmir elected to have Kashmir join India, despite its overwhelmingly Muslim majority population which were opposed to this move. The United Nations ordered a referendum on the matter which was never held. Kashmiri separatists, allegedly armed and supported by Pakistan, have been fighting ever since for their independence from India and many would apparently prefer independence from Pakistan also. This dispute has its roots in nationalism, although it is flavoured by religious sources.
— Jamila Hussain, Islam: Its Law and Society (2004), p. 60
Mar4d ( talk) 18:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
This is why Wikipedia has become an untrustworthy source of information! Almost everyone in this thread should step away and let less involved editors reassert an encyclopaedic perspective, which is necessarily dispassionate about localised interpretations.
It is a perspective that should have no regard for the nationalist, separatist, or chauvinist sensitivities of the hot-heads with emotional attachments to these events. Why would anyone but the people involved in this dispute care about whom to blame for what actually happened? Cite facts about what happened, and point-counterpoint interpretations. Then be done with it and move on.
Don't bother lecturing me about history or some peculiar neckbeard interpretation of Wikipedia etiquette. I am here solely because of the automatic invitation to comment initiated by the template. I have no desire to be involved in this willful effort to politicise and re-ignite ethnic shitfights. Peter S Strempel | Talk 01:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I have removed a highly one-sided paragraph from the lead which ignores the dispute that existed on India's accession of Kashmir and only depicts the accounts of the war post-invasion. Discuss here and do not revert. Mar4d ( talk) 12:22, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Can someone please make it clear on what needs to be added or deleted? The whole discussion seems to be very vague for a person like me who has started watching this page very recently. Thanks - sarvajna ( talk) 13:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
there were some fantastic battles fought in the early phase, it seems that it would worth some more detail such as we find here.
http://ikashmir.net/pakraid1947/shalteng.html http://www.sikhreview.org/december2003/book.htm
The book pays glowing tributes to the bravery and gallantry of officers, JCO’s and Jawans who faced the hardships and challenges cheerfully and never flinched from service to their country. Indeed 1 Sikh saved Srinagar in 1947. Amarinder Singh is all praise for it, “By their courage, skill and devotion to duty, they had prevented the city from falling into the hands of the raiders and denied them the airfield….â€
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-6/sandhu.html
it was a pretty fantastic set of battles fought by a small units, ahead of the bigger fights.
-- Patbahn ( talk) 18:56, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
"Prior to 1815, the area now known as "Jammu and Kashmir" comprised 22 small independent states (16 Hindu and 6 Muslim) carved out of territories controlled by the Amir (King) of Afghanistan, combined with those of local small rulers. These were collectively referred to as the "Punjab Hill States". These small states, ruled by Rajput kings, were variously independent, vassals of the Mughal Empire since the time of Emperor Akbar or sometimes controlled from Kangra state in the Himachal area. Following the decline of the Mughals, turbulence in Kangra and Gorkha invasions, the hill states fell successively under the control of the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh." The person who introduced this paragraph conveniently forgets that of the hill states, only Jammu, Ladakh, Hunza, Nagar and Gilgit are in the current territory of Kashmir and rest of them are actually in the current Indian state of Himachal Pradesh. I don't know where Chitral, Amb and those fit in. And this paragraph is unwarranted since the at the time of the discussion, only three kingdoms existed in Kashmir area - Kashmir, Hunza and Nagar; Hunza and Nagar as vassals of Jammu and Kashmir. If at all the history starts, it should start with events happening from 1920 or 1930 and not 1815. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.220.251.248 ( talk) 12:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not Indian victory in this war Pakistan got victory because half of Kashmir occupied by Pakistan and India also loose it Asfand yar Asfand ( talk) 15:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
The infobox seems to have a number of issues. As far as I can see there are three major issues:
MBlaze, you said yourself that India "recaptured lost grounds." That is not "gaining" or "conquering." Those terms are only used when new territory is gained which didn't originally belong to the country. So they have no place here. Blue PapaBoy, Sources are always necessary, especially when the issues are contentious. - Kautilya3 ( talk) 18:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Well ! That was just a typo mistake ! i mentioned well in the brackets that which rebels and pak troops captured by defeating maharaja forces ! Indian forces came later in the war and manage to gain 2/3 Kashmir !
MBlaze Lightning (
talk) 11:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC) This editor is a
sock-puppet
More refs have been added to infobox regarding causalities. They all seem reliable. D4iNa4 ( talk) 12:13, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
References
Kautilya3, Sorry for the necro, but it seems that the wording in the infobox has changed since this discussion. Since no one has been able to produce reliable sources yet, I am reverting the territorial changes back to what they were before, as it is the most factually correct wording. SpicyBiryani (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
I am removing the number of wounded/killed from infobox as the sources are not third party. They are Indian sources and as we have seen earlier in numerous discussions, neutral sources are required to source these claims. Regards FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 04:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
2nd para in "Partition of India" section seems like original research. In short it is written that "Indian forces occupied much of Kashmir mainly because for some reasons Pakistan did not manage to send troops to Kashmir in due time and by that time India occupied that part". Which seems to be historically incorrect, we need to verify the source.-- Human3015 TALKÂ 18:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
As far I am concencered that 2/3 rd kashmir was signed by hari Singh to india not captured ....while Pakistan captured it in war Libra bro ( talk) 10:32, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
I have fully protected the article for 3 days; participants are invited to make good use of the talk-page. Lectonar ( talk) 12:51, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
I think a point of view tag needs to added as the infobox is highly biased towards figures conjured up by Indian sources not even one Pakistani source is provided what do you guys above think? 5.65.190.98 ( talk) 12:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
meta-level discussion
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I am not sure whos sock you are but I can tell you are pushing the pov of a banned user with your behaviour I suggest you start providing proper arguments about why Indian sources should be trusted and neutral ones ignored. 5.65.190.98 ( talk) 12:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We need to discuss the vandalism this page has gone through with the actions of Knightwarrior25 socks and we also need to discuss what role a sock enabler such as Kautilya3 has on these pages maybe its a way of hiding behind a sock so to avoid attention to his own pov? or maybe he has a connection to the socks themselves. 5.71.195.155 ( talk) 11:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
As per policy that I have linked above, and you don't appear to have read, any user can revert a blocked user's edits, and any user can reinstate them. The user that reinstates them takes responsibility. So, I am declaring now, to save you the trouble, that I will take responsibility for all of MBlaze's edits. So, you should revert them only if you have policy-based reasons to do so. Any revert that says "reverting blocked user" or "reverting sock edit" will be undone. If you don't follow the policy, I will be taking you to WP:ANI. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
meta-level discussion
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Kautilya3, going by your (selective) understanding of the policy, I think the easiest way for someone to push a certain POV is (step by step guide as seen by MBL's modus-operandi and your support to his edits):
Now Kautilya3, if this is how you want to build Wikipedia, I agree with your debate about keeping MBL's edits. If not, they cant stay. Most importantly, if the edits were so legit, there was no need for them to be added through a sock account. A clean account would have sufficed. But then the editor knew that his tendentious, contentious and POV-edits shall be challenged resulting into edit-wars and reports at ANI and ABPIRA sanctions. So, he decided not to risk his master account for such disruptive editing. Now you by supporting him are also doing the same. BTW, the policy you mention says: ....[Only] obviously helpful changes, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand, but the presumption in ambiguous cases "should be to revert." Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a blocked editor' (sometimes called proxy editing or proxying) unless they can show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits. New accounts which engage in the same behavior as a banned editor or blocked account in the same context, and who appear to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, are subject to the remedies applied to the editor whose behavior they are imitating.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlÉʇ 18:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
So you want to waste time? If you dont know these basic, what else are you doing
here? BTW, this may be helpful
WP:CONSENSUS:
Also:
But you dont seem to be doing it.— TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlÉʇ 21:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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@ Kautilya3 You seem to be a mature editor so I think this will be easy for you to understand. So here goes. Whenever a serial vandal and socker introduces a POV text and tries to disrupt wikipedia with his battleground behavior, he does it knowing that he is going to be caught one day, therefore according to policy the usual remedy is to REVERT ALL SOCKS. I hope the bold text was easy to understand. Now if an editor who is not a sockpuppet, like yourself, wants to reinstate the text he is NOT ALLOWED to by pass editing policies. I would like to make this clear by repeating myself for the sake of clarity, reinstating a socks edits does not mean you can bypass wikipedia guidelines. The policy that you need to follow for adding anything is quite clear. As per WP:BURDEN you need to provide the other editors with suitable evidence that your text should be added. Just because a socking vandal added something does not make it a shoe in, rather it should be reinstated after a lengthy discussion with extra suspicion. So as per norm, I am reverting your insertion and asking that you follow WP:BRD and provide us with some reasons to include your text. As you do not own wikipedia(YET), you're "taking responsibility" for a vandals edits means nothing to me or to anyone else. To us, you just reinstated a very suspicious piece of text, so you will need to provide reasoning as to why you think this should be added. FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 08:09, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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Since it is being stated in the article lead that Pakistan started the war (with no credible source) then I think the best way forward would be to include both perspectives on why and how the Pakistani forces entered the Kashmiri revolution. Victria Schofield presents both perspectives here:
India's and Pakistan's, both perspectives are provided.
Note that Victoria Schofield's books on Kashmir are known to be one of the best and most neutral. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@This is an area of dispute too. And will actually help clear up our understanding of the rest of the war events. I will be back to disussions on Talk page when I wake up. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Having consulted several sources, I am of the opinion that it is a mistake to draw the line at the tribal invasion. The antecedents of the tribal invasion have full bearing on the "war" that followed. I would be quite happy to extend the scope of the article to all the conflicts that have followed from June 1947 onwards, when the decision to partition India was taken. I am also happy for both Indian and Pakistani sources to be included as long as they satisfy the requirements of WP:HISTRS.
It is not clear what bearing the Jammu massacres have had on the war. I will create a new article on the Jammu massacres, something I have been wanting to do for a long time, and then we can summarise it here as necessary. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 08:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
@Kautilya3
I invite you to review my changes to this article. If you are unable to find my references please tell me and I will link them up here. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 12:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
MBlaze Lightning reverted some of the new material added recently. I don't agree with his rationale about Christopher Snedden, who is a perfectly reliable source, but he has a point that this is undue here. I do intend to add a section on the Poonch uprising in the Kashmir conflict page, that is where it should be discussed. The Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 certainly began with the Pashtun invasion. What happened earlier is merely background. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
meta-level discussions
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Well, TripWire, if I try to find out what interest you have in the Poonch revolt, you are nowhere to be found in articles like Azad Kashmir, History of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan, Christopher Snedden, G. K. Reddy, or even Kashmir conflict. In fact, it is hard to find any content you have added anywhere. In fact, it doesn't appear that you are here to build a Wikipedia, but rather you are here to obstruct those who do. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously by Wikipedians, I would advise you to first prove yourself by producing some content in areas you claim expertise. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 16:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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@ TripWire: In this revert, revert, you call it misleading edit summary.
meta-level discussion
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@MBlaze Lightning: Please explain how exactly the massacre of Jammu's Muslims is UNDE to include here? I am familiar with the rules of DUE and UNDUE. That massacre instigated the anti-Maharajah conflict. This seems to be a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 12:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
References
@ TripWire and MBlaze Lightning: Talha Zubair asked me to review his new content quite a while ago, which I am doing and I will continue to do. Your reverts in interim are interfering in the process. If you proceed in this way, the page will get protected as it happened on the other pages. I request you to voice your concerns here, and not interfere with the article text. These issues cannot be settled by edit-warring. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:11, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
meta-level discussion
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@MBlaze: Keep your accusations to yourself. I used a different source to you which gave the simple statement that General Thapa surrendered Skardu. If you have used another source to add extra info then rest assured I will also use another source to add more info abt the same event. And remove your Kashmir Valley people wanting to be India reference. YOU need to get consensus for it. IMO it is WP:UNDUE because the valley population had no role to play during the Poonch uprising. Anything, if at all, Valley related happened then it happened after the tribal invasion. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 12:33, 4 April 2016 (UTC) Yes, I am requesting all parties to discuss objections on the talk page instead of reverting. No exceptions. IPs included. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@MBlaze Lightning: I also used this source about Skardu surrender: Barua, Pradeep (2005). The State at War in South Asia. U of Nebraska Press. pp. 164–165. ISBN 9780803213449.
This one said Indian army surrendered. Thats the main source I read and used. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:03, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@MBlaze Lightning: Yes I believe it is WP:UNDUE. Not because its false. But because it doesn't fit in this section. Poonch and Gilgit revolted and were the epicentre of the anti-Maharajah rebellion, so it makes sense to have their pro-Pakistan sentiment there. However the Kashmir Valley people were largely silent during this phase. However if you want to mention them as part of the resistance to the tribals which happened later later on then feel free to include their 'pro-India' (actually pro-Sheikh Abdullah) sentiment. TalhaZubairButt ( talk) 13:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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Too much space was wasted above on meta-level discussions rather than anything to do with the Christopher Snedden source. To get back to the topic, the newspaper review cited in the article calls the book "alternative interpretation of history." The key academic review of the book cited in the Christopher Snedden article calls it a "new spin" and mentions that Snedden ignores a large part of the evidence. Satish Kumar disagrees that an internal revolt in the State by itself cannot internationalise the dispute. All these assessments indicate that Snedden is putting forward new theories which go against the mainstream views. So this is in the nature of a WP:PRIMARY source.
My own assessment is that the book is primarily on the history of Azad Kashmir (The Untold Story of the People of Azad Kashmir). It is based on the research carried out in Muzaffarabad, according to the author (see Acknowledgements, page xi). Indian sources and British sources are mostly ignored by the author. For these reasons, this book gives a partial view of the 1947 events, and the summative judgements made in it are WP:UNDUE for our article. We are required to represent the scholarly consensus, not a single author's views. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:55, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
@ MalikAttaRasool: You have changed "Indo-Pakistani" to "Indo-Pak", which introduces change of terminology from the page title. This should not be done.
Dear Kautalia do I need to quote the work of western scholars to convince you that how the world is used? Reddy, C. Rammanohar. "Indo–Pak defence spending." S Asian J (2005). Gehlot, N. S., and Anu Satsangi. Indo-Pak Relations: Twists and Turns from Partition to Agra Summit and Beyond. Deep and Deep Publications, 2004. Kalis, Naseer Ahmed, and Shaheen Showkat Dar. "Geo-political Significance of Kashmir: An overview of Indo-Pak Relations." IOSR Journal of Humanities and Social Science. I am sure you are convinced for correct usage of Indo-Pak. So please relax. any one who understand Indo will surely know Pak. let us not mislead our youngsters by incorrect use of terms. I call upon author of article to correct the title. MalikAttaRasool ( talk) 07:24, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
In this edit, I have added the British commanding officers of both the Indian and Pakistani armies, with their allegiance noted as the British Indian army. The reason for this was subsequently explained in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947#Partition of India section.
Since then, a number of IP edits attempted to change their allegiance variously to "Pakistan" or "United Kingdom". These are wrong. The officers were the officers of the British Indian army who stayed on to serve the Indian/Pakistani armies as a service to the newly formed dominions. They reported to the Supreme Commander
Claude Auchinleck, who in turn reported to the Joint Defence Council of the two dominions as well as the British cabinet. In Auchinleck's words, British officers could not be forced or ordered by the Indian Dominion governments to take actions that would be repugnant to their code of behaviour as officers or to their allegiance to the King.
[1] So, it is not proper to regard them as members of the Indian/Pakistani armies. Neither did the officers take orders from the British army. After they returned to Britain, some of them were absorbed into the British army. However, they were not members of the British army when they were in the subcontinent.
If the IP's continue to alter the affiliations without explanations or discussion, I will ask for the article to be semi-protected. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:18, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
References
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Does the three day sack of Baramula deserve it's own section? The suffering of the people of Baramula for three days bought time for Indian Army forces to reinforce Srinigar. -- Patbahn ( talk) 04:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The photo titled "Indian soldiers during the 1947–1948 war." is from WW1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viperov ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
It is important to note that George VI was the head of both the Dominions during the war (a rare occurence in history), and thus the ex-Raj officials and newly appointed Governors-General all were fighting against each other (trying not to give the upper hand to the other party). Please add George VI as one of the belligerents (as head of state, with the Union Jack flag) in the infobox on both sides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.69.241.69 ( talk) 13:30, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
In June 1948, Brigadier Rajendra Singh, led the Ist Grenadiers, accompanied by the 2/4 Gurkha and captured Gurez. 1n 1949 Brigadier Rajendra Singh was the military administrator of Jammu and Kashmir for 2 years. Operation Snipe involves a mountain terrain warfare going up and through the Vijji Galli in Kashmir and this is a subset of Operation Eraze which leads to the capture of Gurez. The Operation Eraze continued to control the Zojilla Pass and some other critical passes.Φ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spockbuddha ( talk • contribs) 17:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)