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What does "encl." stand for? Enclitic? This isn't clear without looking at Proto-Indo-European pronouns — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewmorrone1 ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
It could be useful to mention stems in Sanskrit that are often closer to the PIE stem than the third person singular present indicative. Example: bhu ( to be ) -> bhávati , sthā ( to stand ) -> tíṣṭhati.
Third person singular forms for stem gam ( to go ) that I know are: gacchati ( not gámati as given in table ), and ágacchat ( not ágan ). This is another example that shows the relative closeness of the stem to PIE. -- Indranil dg ( talk) 15:23, 9 November 2014 (UTC) IDG
The article, now called Indo-European Vocabulary, should perhaps be renamed Proto-Indo-European vocabulary? Please note WP:CAPS. -- Fama Clamosa ( talk) 09:43, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Someone editing from an IP address made a number of Albanian changes. Some of them are spelling changes which I assume are correct, and I thank you for your changes. However, some of them are additions of words which, although they are undoubtedly real words in Albanian, are borrowings from Latin. For example, "q" is not a normal reflex in Albanian of "palatal k", and "s" is not a normal reflex if PIE "s" -- both of these are clear indications of borrowings from Latin. This table should in general only reflect native vocab, not borrowings. Benwing ( talk) 05:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
PIE *gʷerH > Eng. "heavy" > Alb. zor "uneasiness" (used as an example of velar stops in Albanian) PIE *h₁lengʷʰ-. >Eng. "light"(weight) > Alb. "lehtë" (PAlb. *lexta) PIE *néwo- > Eng. "new" > Alb. "ri" (just like PIE *ǵʰeimen, Eng. "winter", Alb. "dimër") More Albanian additions: 'rreth From Proto-Albanian *ratsa, from *rat(i)tsa, from pre-Albanian *róth₂ik̑om, diminutive of Proto-Indo-European *róth₂o ‘wheel’ (compare Lithunaian rãtas, German Rad). 69.136.155.232 ( talk) 22:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Some people have been adding a whole column of Persian language vocabulary. I see that a fair amount of work has gone into this, but unfortunately it simply doesn't belong. If you look at the other languages represented, you'll see that in general they include the oldest well-documented language in each family; this is intentional. Furthermore, the words that go there are only supposed to be words that are cognate to the PIE root in question, while the Persian column has lots of words that clearly don't belong. If there is to be a Persian-type column at all, it needs to include words only from Avestan and/or Old Persian, not Modern Persian, and only cognate words. Hopefully one of the people who added the Persian stuff will fix up this column in this fashion; otherwise in a few days I'll have to get rid of it. Thanks, Benwing ( talk) 01:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I have a concern about different IE roots for words with similar meaning eg Alb. dele (sheep) comes from IE dheh1i- (to suck) or Alb. llap (eat greedily, swallow) comes from IE lh2p-, lap- (to lick) etc. How can they be presented in the tables? Aigest ( talk) 09:32, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'd like to get the cognacy information for some of the Albanian words that were recently added by ZjarriRrethues. Basically, they need to be (a) inherited, not borrowed; (b) cognate with the root they're placed under. grurë is OK but I'm not sure about the others, in particular dhomë and një. I already took out verë "summer" (cognate with Lat. vinum not ver) and at "father" (almost certainly not cognate with Lat. pater). I assume the additions by Aigest are OK based on his (her?) comments and the look of the words. Thanks, Benwing ( talk) 21:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that the word dhomë should be put back in; it's not a borrowing but a cognate. Verë "summer" isn't a cognate vith Latin vinum, but with ver. Verë "wine" is cognate with Latin vinum (see Gheg ven/venë "wine"). Clausangeloh ( talk) 23:43, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
AFAIK Venetic is not related with Albanian although I see there used in Albanian column at pronouns section. What does it mean? Aigest ( talk) 11:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
I added several Norse examples, mostly because I'm reasonably familiar with the language. Feel free to replace them with Old High German or other older examples, as see fit. 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 01:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I find it strange that *H₁es- is only conjugated in three, rather random forms (1st sing, 3rd sing and 3rd plur). If we are to show the conjugation, why not show all the six basic forms? The merger of "are" in Modern English is a pretty unique development, anyway. 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 02:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Some of the Sanskrit nouns given aren't actually in either the stem form or the nominative, eg. mātar. The stem is mātṛ and the nominative is mātā - the quoted form mātar is in fact the vocative. This is the case in Classical Sanskrit at least - was it different in Vedic? Kannan91 ( talk) 22:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Why not include the words for "sit" and "naked". They are much similar in all IE families. -- Jidu Boite ( talk) 10:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
The word pard is very funny - think about the strange words that we have kept for thousands of years — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.247.188.32 ( talk) 18:48, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm assuming the "@" is supposed to be H2, in which when typing that, the editor missed the "h" and typed "shift 2" instead (which would produce the symbol in question). Since I don't know this for sure, I thought I'd alert the people who 'do' know what it's supposed to be before making a n00b change and misdirecting people to the wrong word. XP 98.84.71.158 ( talk) 03:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Is there any source stating that OPr "be" ("and") really is related to *-kʷe? The sound shift *kʷ to *b doesn't seem to have appeared elsewhere in Baltic, so it appears dubious. I have trouble finding any etymological sources for Old Lithuanian I could read, but I found this link, where Don Ringe et al seems to find the etymology uncertain: [2] 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 15:32, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I always assumed it comes from the PIE word "médʰu" "mead, honey"... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.173.37.60 ( talk) 16:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I do not see anything between wajjas and egros but ajrah and wajjas are so simillar and both mean meadow... I don't know... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.173.37.60 ( talk) 11:20, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
As a complete linguistics layman, I can't read the notation for pronouncing PIE words. Yet I checked this page, hoping for insight into how to pronounce PIE words. I urge the very smart people who maintain this page to include either:
1) an explanation of the notations, 2) a link to an explanation of the notations, or 3) a phonetic pronunciation guide.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.145.68 ( talk) 03:26, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
There is no listing of the root work *oz for buttocks. Can this be included? Bearian ( talk) 21:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
In my native (Slavic) language, the word "dever" means exclusively "husband's brother", not any brother-in-law, just like many of its cognates. Also, the word "mater" ("mother") is often heard, but is so archaic that people use it almost only in vulgar phrases. I assume it existed in Old Church Slavonic and, if so, should probably be included in the table, as it is closer to the PIE meH₂tér than the alternative "mati". Surtsicna ( talk) 16:42, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
This kind of an overview table of relatively indiscriminate information (none of this with sources, even) would be much better transwikied to a Wiktionary appendix, with cross-referencing to individual PIE root entries there. This Wikipedia article should rather discuss what, in general, is known about the reconstructible PIE lexicon, without an overkill of comparative data. Cf. e.g. Mallory & Adams' 2006 handbook. -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 19:58, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
In (modern) Slavic languages there is a word cognate to 'g’enu' meaning jaw - namely 'чене' (pronounced čene). Since the palatal g' here is voiceless, probably it was borrowed from Germanic, but I guess it still fits? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.239.160 ( talk) 08:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
I think since written form is only an approximation of spoken language, it is rather better to use an easily guessed and typed set of letters to show all entries in some phonetic form except, of course, the English words that we all know how to say. IMHO, IE does not need special characters constructed with superior h etc. and accent marks. They are intimidating for regular users of the encyclopedia like me. A pronunciation key would help. Using the same phonetic alphabet will help see how the 'accent' of the speakers of a daughter language shaped the mapping rules for taking sounds of the mother language (or any other) into their phoneme set. I think showing þ, ð and æ would make the table more accurate. US-International, US-Extended and Dead-key keymap (from Windows, Mac and Linux) are keyboards that have many accent letters and the above three OE letters.
The HK Sanskrit phoneme chart (so-dii) ordered in the traditional way is as follows: from [1] (If I were to decide, I'd use doubled vowels, aa, ii, uu for long vowels as it keeps with the Sanskrit rule that a long vowel equals two mAtra or two (morae in Latin). This Dutch style has now become common in writing place names like Sanaa)
a A i I u U (pt of art going from back to front) R RR lR lRR ( ditto ) e ai o au M H (post fixed to vowels: English ng and glottal stop) k kh g gh G (velars: unvoiced, uv-aspirated, voiced, v-asp, nasal) c ch j jh J (palatals as above) T Th D Dh N (alveolars) t th d dh n (dentals) p ph b bh m (labials) y r l v (antaHstha = in between -- semi vowels and other names) z S s h (fricatives: z = as in ship, S = as in azure)
Rev. Fr. Theodore Perera [ [2]] explained the (intuitive) rule set the Singhalese used when deriving Singhala forms of Sanskrit or Pali (Maagadhi) words. I think identifying these patterns will help to understand pre-IE languages these peoples may have spoken earlier and catch false cognates as well. I think borrowing implicitly means mapping to the phoneme inventory.
For those who are interested in Singhala or Indic, see the traditional 'hodiya' chart shown in the native script using an orthographic smart font superimposed on romanized Singhala: [3]
JC ( talk) 18:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
References
Hi everyone, I just added Romanian languages in some of these tabs. I think it is important that Romanian language is part of these tabs because that language is so similar to proto-indo-european and it has links to all European languages (Latin, Slavic, German, Sanskrit, Greek, etc.). But in spite of the fact that it has so many roots, the words kept their old form. And that is the most visible in Moldovan dialect. Does everyone agree with me that Romanian must be part of this page? Valimali67 ( talk) 10:15, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Or I would not add anything, but Romanian is a romance language and as such it should not be included. Nikos.VLN ( talk) 15:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
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Is it possible to find cognates or derivations for the root and the stem the word "sweet" comes from. It is present in Latin (suavis from ---> *suad-vis and suadens) and in Ancient Greek. Also the cognates to the Latin word "pecus" (German "Vieh", Sanskrit "paśu" etc.).-- Marco Bechere ( talk) 14:46, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Is the spelling "Tokaryan" an alternative for "Tokharian" or "Tocharian"? TomS TDotO ( talk) 23:19, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Can we please not overload the cognates table with additional derivatives, like adding long lists of English derivatives of each Latin or Greek word into the Latin and Greek cells (such as "matron, maternal, matrimony" etc for Lat. mater)? This is making the whole table unwieldy and is detracting from its actual function, which is to just compare the basic terms in each of the IE branches. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
since the tables are long, might it be helpful for the language-family row to remain pinned as one scrolls down?
Sunyataivarupam ( talk) 20:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)sunyataivarupam
Loanwords in my view should be excluded from the tables because it is about Indo-European cognates! Thus Romance loanwords in English like "host" but also the Celtic loanword rix, in the table "English; bishopric (< OE rīċe "king, dominion") Gothic: reiks, -ric" and others should be excluded because this does not really clarify the but rather confuse the genetic relations between Indo-European cognates. 2A02:8071:B81:DA80:B031:7C3F:B116:2AE4 ( talk) 09:31, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
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What does "encl." stand for? Enclitic? This isn't clear without looking at Proto-Indo-European pronouns — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewmorrone1 ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
It could be useful to mention stems in Sanskrit that are often closer to the PIE stem than the third person singular present indicative. Example: bhu ( to be ) -> bhávati , sthā ( to stand ) -> tíṣṭhati.
Third person singular forms for stem gam ( to go ) that I know are: gacchati ( not gámati as given in table ), and ágacchat ( not ágan ). This is another example that shows the relative closeness of the stem to PIE. -- Indranil dg ( talk) 15:23, 9 November 2014 (UTC) IDG
The article, now called Indo-European Vocabulary, should perhaps be renamed Proto-Indo-European vocabulary? Please note WP:CAPS. -- Fama Clamosa ( talk) 09:43, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Someone editing from an IP address made a number of Albanian changes. Some of them are spelling changes which I assume are correct, and I thank you for your changes. However, some of them are additions of words which, although they are undoubtedly real words in Albanian, are borrowings from Latin. For example, "q" is not a normal reflex in Albanian of "palatal k", and "s" is not a normal reflex if PIE "s" -- both of these are clear indications of borrowings from Latin. This table should in general only reflect native vocab, not borrowings. Benwing ( talk) 05:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
PIE *gʷerH > Eng. "heavy" > Alb. zor "uneasiness" (used as an example of velar stops in Albanian) PIE *h₁lengʷʰ-. >Eng. "light"(weight) > Alb. "lehtë" (PAlb. *lexta) PIE *néwo- > Eng. "new" > Alb. "ri" (just like PIE *ǵʰeimen, Eng. "winter", Alb. "dimër") More Albanian additions: 'rreth From Proto-Albanian *ratsa, from *rat(i)tsa, from pre-Albanian *róth₂ik̑om, diminutive of Proto-Indo-European *róth₂o ‘wheel’ (compare Lithunaian rãtas, German Rad). 69.136.155.232 ( talk) 22:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Some people have been adding a whole column of Persian language vocabulary. I see that a fair amount of work has gone into this, but unfortunately it simply doesn't belong. If you look at the other languages represented, you'll see that in general they include the oldest well-documented language in each family; this is intentional. Furthermore, the words that go there are only supposed to be words that are cognate to the PIE root in question, while the Persian column has lots of words that clearly don't belong. If there is to be a Persian-type column at all, it needs to include words only from Avestan and/or Old Persian, not Modern Persian, and only cognate words. Hopefully one of the people who added the Persian stuff will fix up this column in this fashion; otherwise in a few days I'll have to get rid of it. Thanks, Benwing ( talk) 01:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I have a concern about different IE roots for words with similar meaning eg Alb. dele (sheep) comes from IE dheh1i- (to suck) or Alb. llap (eat greedily, swallow) comes from IE lh2p-, lap- (to lick) etc. How can they be presented in the tables? Aigest ( talk) 09:32, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'd like to get the cognacy information for some of the Albanian words that were recently added by ZjarriRrethues. Basically, they need to be (a) inherited, not borrowed; (b) cognate with the root they're placed under. grurë is OK but I'm not sure about the others, in particular dhomë and një. I already took out verë "summer" (cognate with Lat. vinum not ver) and at "father" (almost certainly not cognate with Lat. pater). I assume the additions by Aigest are OK based on his (her?) comments and the look of the words. Thanks, Benwing ( talk) 21:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that the word dhomë should be put back in; it's not a borrowing but a cognate. Verë "summer" isn't a cognate vith Latin vinum, but with ver. Verë "wine" is cognate with Latin vinum (see Gheg ven/venë "wine"). Clausangeloh ( talk) 23:43, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
AFAIK Venetic is not related with Albanian although I see there used in Albanian column at pronouns section. What does it mean? Aigest ( talk) 11:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
I added several Norse examples, mostly because I'm reasonably familiar with the language. Feel free to replace them with Old High German or other older examples, as see fit. 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 01:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I find it strange that *H₁es- is only conjugated in three, rather random forms (1st sing, 3rd sing and 3rd plur). If we are to show the conjugation, why not show all the six basic forms? The merger of "are" in Modern English is a pretty unique development, anyway. 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 02:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Some of the Sanskrit nouns given aren't actually in either the stem form or the nominative, eg. mātar. The stem is mātṛ and the nominative is mātā - the quoted form mātar is in fact the vocative. This is the case in Classical Sanskrit at least - was it different in Vedic? Kannan91 ( talk) 22:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Why not include the words for "sit" and "naked". They are much similar in all IE families. -- Jidu Boite ( talk) 10:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
The word pard is very funny - think about the strange words that we have kept for thousands of years — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.247.188.32 ( talk) 18:48, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm assuming the "@" is supposed to be H2, in which when typing that, the editor missed the "h" and typed "shift 2" instead (which would produce the symbol in question). Since I don't know this for sure, I thought I'd alert the people who 'do' know what it's supposed to be before making a n00b change and misdirecting people to the wrong word. XP 98.84.71.158 ( talk) 03:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Is there any source stating that OPr "be" ("and") really is related to *-kʷe? The sound shift *kʷ to *b doesn't seem to have appeared elsewhere in Baltic, so it appears dubious. I have trouble finding any etymological sources for Old Lithuanian I could read, but I found this link, where Don Ringe et al seems to find the etymology uncertain: [2] 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 15:32, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I always assumed it comes from the PIE word "médʰu" "mead, honey"... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.173.37.60 ( talk) 16:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I do not see anything between wajjas and egros but ajrah and wajjas are so simillar and both mean meadow... I don't know... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.173.37.60 ( talk) 11:20, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
As a complete linguistics layman, I can't read the notation for pronouncing PIE words. Yet I checked this page, hoping for insight into how to pronounce PIE words. I urge the very smart people who maintain this page to include either:
1) an explanation of the notations, 2) a link to an explanation of the notations, or 3) a phonetic pronunciation guide.
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.145.68 ( talk) 03:26, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
There is no listing of the root work *oz for buttocks. Can this be included? Bearian ( talk) 21:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
In my native (Slavic) language, the word "dever" means exclusively "husband's brother", not any brother-in-law, just like many of its cognates. Also, the word "mater" ("mother") is often heard, but is so archaic that people use it almost only in vulgar phrases. I assume it existed in Old Church Slavonic and, if so, should probably be included in the table, as it is closer to the PIE meH₂tér than the alternative "mati". Surtsicna ( talk) 16:42, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
This kind of an overview table of relatively indiscriminate information (none of this with sources, even) would be much better transwikied to a Wiktionary appendix, with cross-referencing to individual PIE root entries there. This Wikipedia article should rather discuss what, in general, is known about the reconstructible PIE lexicon, without an overkill of comparative data. Cf. e.g. Mallory & Adams' 2006 handbook. -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 19:58, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
In (modern) Slavic languages there is a word cognate to 'g’enu' meaning jaw - namely 'чене' (pronounced čene). Since the palatal g' here is voiceless, probably it was borrowed from Germanic, but I guess it still fits? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.239.160 ( talk) 08:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
I think since written form is only an approximation of spoken language, it is rather better to use an easily guessed and typed set of letters to show all entries in some phonetic form except, of course, the English words that we all know how to say. IMHO, IE does not need special characters constructed with superior h etc. and accent marks. They are intimidating for regular users of the encyclopedia like me. A pronunciation key would help. Using the same phonetic alphabet will help see how the 'accent' of the speakers of a daughter language shaped the mapping rules for taking sounds of the mother language (or any other) into their phoneme set. I think showing þ, ð and æ would make the table more accurate. US-International, US-Extended and Dead-key keymap (from Windows, Mac and Linux) are keyboards that have many accent letters and the above three OE letters.
The HK Sanskrit phoneme chart (so-dii) ordered in the traditional way is as follows: from [1] (If I were to decide, I'd use doubled vowels, aa, ii, uu for long vowels as it keeps with the Sanskrit rule that a long vowel equals two mAtra or two (morae in Latin). This Dutch style has now become common in writing place names like Sanaa)
a A i I u U (pt of art going from back to front) R RR lR lRR ( ditto ) e ai o au M H (post fixed to vowels: English ng and glottal stop) k kh g gh G (velars: unvoiced, uv-aspirated, voiced, v-asp, nasal) c ch j jh J (palatals as above) T Th D Dh N (alveolars) t th d dh n (dentals) p ph b bh m (labials) y r l v (antaHstha = in between -- semi vowels and other names) z S s h (fricatives: z = as in ship, S = as in azure)
Rev. Fr. Theodore Perera [ [2]] explained the (intuitive) rule set the Singhalese used when deriving Singhala forms of Sanskrit or Pali (Maagadhi) words. I think identifying these patterns will help to understand pre-IE languages these peoples may have spoken earlier and catch false cognates as well. I think borrowing implicitly means mapping to the phoneme inventory.
For those who are interested in Singhala or Indic, see the traditional 'hodiya' chart shown in the native script using an orthographic smart font superimposed on romanized Singhala: [3]
JC ( talk) 18:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
References
Hi everyone, I just added Romanian languages in some of these tabs. I think it is important that Romanian language is part of these tabs because that language is so similar to proto-indo-european and it has links to all European languages (Latin, Slavic, German, Sanskrit, Greek, etc.). But in spite of the fact that it has so many roots, the words kept their old form. And that is the most visible in Moldovan dialect. Does everyone agree with me that Romanian must be part of this page? Valimali67 ( talk) 10:15, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Or I would not add anything, but Romanian is a romance language and as such it should not be included. Nikos.VLN ( talk) 15:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Indo-European vocabulary. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Is it possible to find cognates or derivations for the root and the stem the word "sweet" comes from. It is present in Latin (suavis from ---> *suad-vis and suadens) and in Ancient Greek. Also the cognates to the Latin word "pecus" (German "Vieh", Sanskrit "paśu" etc.).-- Marco Bechere ( talk) 14:46, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
Is the spelling "Tokaryan" an alternative for "Tokharian" or "Tocharian"? TomS TDotO ( talk) 23:19, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Can we please not overload the cognates table with additional derivatives, like adding long lists of English derivatives of each Latin or Greek word into the Latin and Greek cells (such as "matron, maternal, matrimony" etc for Lat. mater)? This is making the whole table unwieldy and is detracting from its actual function, which is to just compare the basic terms in each of the IE branches. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
since the tables are long, might it be helpful for the language-family row to remain pinned as one scrolls down?
Sunyataivarupam ( talk) 20:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)sunyataivarupam
Loanwords in my view should be excluded from the tables because it is about Indo-European cognates! Thus Romance loanwords in English like "host" but also the Celtic loanword rix, in the table "English; bishopric (< OE rīċe "king, dominion") Gothic: reiks, -ric" and others should be excluded because this does not really clarify the but rather confuse the genetic relations between Indo-European cognates. 2A02:8071:B81:DA80:B031:7C3F:B116:2AE4 ( talk) 09:31, 26 August 2022 (UTC)