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What happened to the article Prominent Indigenous Australians?? It was there a while ago Cfitzart 05:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
It's Prominent indigenous Australians. Indigenous is an adjective, not a proper noun. Adam 06:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
"Indigenous" and "aboriginal", as adjectives, mean exactly the same thing. "Aborigine" became established as a proper noun designator (that is, a name) for all the indigenous people of Australia except the Torres Strait Islanders, and thus acquired a capital "A." "Indigenous" is not meant to be merely a substitute name, which would be pointless. It is meant to be used as an adjective with a lower case "a", qualifying the noun "Australians." This makes two points: that the indigenous Australians are Australians, and that they are not a undifferentiated category but include many peoples who self-identify under various names. Adam 09:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
A recent edit summary removed a heading, with a comment along the lines of "doesn't need separate 'Australian Aborigines' heading - the whole article is about them". I think the heading was valuable, but seek consensus rather than immediate reversion (due to other edits): This article is about all indigenous Australians, which is usually taken to mean Aborigines, Torres Strait Islanders (and perhaps Tasmanian Aborigines separately). As such, if parts of the article are specifically not discussing TSI people, it is appropriate to put it under a heading of Australian Aborigines or similar, with the expectation of farming out a daughter article again when that content becomes large enough. Perhaps other parts of Australia are different, but here if someone says "Indigenous Australians", they are deliberately including TSI people as well as Aborigines, which looks really odd when reading an article about a remote community a few hundred kilometres from Alice Springs for example. -- Scott Davis Talk 09:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of renaming the articles was to get rid of the word "Aborigine," which is disliked by most politically active indigenous people, and replace it with the term "indigenous Australians". This is a description, not a name and thus doesn't take a capital "I". The Torres Strait Islanders are a subset of indigenous Australians who have a specific identity. Adam 10:24, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"Aboriginal Australian" is certainly preferable to "Aborigine". I don't mean to suggest that there is unanimity in the indigenous community about what name should be used: if there was it would be a much easier question than it is. But I think we had to get rid of "Aborigine" in the title of our "flagship" article on this subject. I am less fussed about the adjectival use in the articles you mention. Adam 14:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
It's not a question of "PC political camps" -- 'Aborigine' is widely accepted in academic fields to be unacceptable as a proper noun for indigenous Australians. Rather it refers to aboriginal peoples around the world. 'Aboriginal' as an adjective is acceptable, as this distinguishes from 'Torres Strait Islander' that 'indigenous' encompasses. It's actually preferable not to generalise at all considering indigenous Australians come from as many different cultural heritages as the states of Europe... http://www.uq.edu.au/about/index.html?page=5325&pid=5317 203.15.35.100 09:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)Ro
To me this text suggests that Indigenous Australians are all over 200 years old. "A people who..." or, preferably, "the people descended from those who..." would give the correct impression. But I hestitate to change it in case the current wording is the norm in history, ethnography or whatever... -- Rkundalini 01:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I noticed comparing the article with an older version that there is quite alot of text that has been removed. Is any of this useful for the current article? ---- Cfitzart 05:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC):
The first stage of my rewrite contained the following sentence, which someone has deleted: "This article describes Australia's indigenous peoples, their prehistory and history, and their present circumstances. For the history of Australian government policy towards the indigenous Australians, see Australian governments and indigenous Australians." I still intend writing this second article, perhaps this weekend if I get time. I deleted some of the above material because it fits better in the proposed second article than in this one, which should be about indigenous Australians themselves. Some of the earlier stuff I deleted because I thought it was repetitious or too detailed for an article of this length. Adam 09:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes - 8 is also factually wrong. If you want to restore some of the others I am not going to argue about it. Adam 09:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
So long as no-one looks at it for a while :) Adam 10:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Is it possible that we could attach to the article links to particular groups? I have added some detail to the Kaurna group and I would like this linked to this page. How about working on some other particular groups? Frances76 11:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Cheers :)
Frances76
22:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
There is evidence to suggest that some indigenous communities did in fact have systems of agriculture in place for growing yams etc (it is not true that no indigenous plants are able to be cultivated) and there is significant evidence pointing to the farming of, or at least sophisticated management and culling of, populations of fish and kangaroo... What do we say about editing that bit or maybe making a new page about 'Bush tucker'?
Agriculture means the deliberate annual planting and harvesting of food plants. Management of food resources, which all hunter gatherers do, is not the same thing. I agree that it is not true that there were no cultivable plants in Australia (although I'm not sure the yam is native to Australia). But the development of agriculture was a response to scarcity caused either by climate change or population growth, and the indigenous populations in fertile areas never experienced sufficient scarcity to make the additional labour required by agriculture necessary. Population was controlled through infanticide, which the article should mention. Adam 06:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
The 'native Yam' or 'Yam Daisy' (Microseris scapigera) was native to southern Austrlia from alps to the coast. It was a staple food. It has an unusual genotype which points to it human manipulation in the past. I agree that to use the word 'agriculture' cant be allowed however the following phrase ' as there are virtually no indigenous plants in Australia which can be cultivated 'is hard to sustain. Plants arent cultivatable. They become so by human genetic manipulation. Anyway I think that the phrase is redundant-(I hate the word virtual) and theres no need for it. Eric A. Warbuton 06:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm astonished to say I agree with Eric. Adam 06:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Yet another example of the constant tendency at Wikipedia to redefine things in a more "inclusive" way so as not to offend PC sentiment. To suggest that hunter-gatherer societies didn't practice agriculture seems vaguely offensive to the PC soul, because it suggests they were "primitive" - a very bad thing to suggest - and because is more "progressive" to farm than to hunt (a false assumption, as I explain below). So we redefine agriculture to include whatever it is that hunter-gatherers do, thus offending no-one but rendering the word meaningless. Agriculture is what farmers do: they plant seeds and harvest crops, and they domesticate animals for food. Hunter-gatherers hunt and gather. They manage naturally occuring plants and animals in various ways, but they don't plant crops or domesticate food animals. Indigenous Australians did the latter and not the former. There is nothing derogatory or pejorative about stating this. Adam 12:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
There is an assumption here that people will and should practise agriculture if it is possible for them to do so. This is a misunderstanding of social evolution, which, like biological evolution, is the result of the pressure of natural selection. People only developed agriculture when and where they were forced to do so by scarcity. Farmers have to work much harder than hunter gatherers in temperate areas. If a population can live well by hunter-gathering, it will keep on hunter-gathering for ever, unless acted on by external forces. Adam 12:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
i agree that there is a false assumption that agriculture is better than hunter-gatherer etc, but i think that there is a need to mention the systems of land management used as an explanation that hunter-gatherer doesn't mean that indigenous Australians didn't participate in the management of the land; there seems to be a belief that indigenous people associated differently with the land and this was how the whole concept of terra nullius came about.. recognising that in fact indigenous people impacted upon, managed, and engaged in food production i feel is necessary to ensuring the correct portrayal of indigenous culture ~Ro
Adam - please corroborate your claims that indigenous populations were controlled through infanticide?
Why do i constantly find attacks to political correctness on wikipedia? What's so wrong about political correctness? Our culture is shaped by the language we use, and describing things correctly and inclusively aids the unbiased understanding of issues... presenting all sides of the argument seems to come under criticism of being 'PC' and obsessive about detail, but given that we are creating a document of some degree of truth, why is seeking to portray things as correctly and inoffensively as possible such a bad thing??
In response:
Adam 09:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
On infanticide in pre-1788 indigenous society, see Gillian Cowlinshaw, Infanticide in Aboriginal Australia, "Oceania," XLVIII No 4, June 1978, 262. Cowlinshaw (Dept of Athropology, Sydney Uni), based on a study of early eyewitnesses and other sources, gives estimates that up to 30% of newborns were killed in some parts of Australia. Categories killed almost automatically were twins, infants with deformities, infants which gave pain to the mother during delivery, and infants born while the mother was still breast-feeding a previous child - which together would have been a significant proportion of all births. In some places a woman's firstborn child was always killed. Various cultural and/or religious reasons were usually cited for these practices, but the origin for them is obviously that in a mobile hunter-gatherer community, which must constantly follow its food sources, there is a strict limit on the number of infants that can be cared for. Cowlinshaw disagrees with the view that infanticide was a conscious device for population control (but she cites other writers who do hold this view). It is not however necessary to argue that indigenous people had a conscious desire to limit population through infanticide, any more than it is necessary to argue that giraffes had a conscious desire to evolve long necks. Natural selection drives both species and human societies in certain directions. The effect of infanticide in hunter-gatherer societies (not just indigenous Australian society) was to limit population and thus reduce pressure on food sources, and those groups which first practised it gained an evolutionary advantage which in time led the practice to become standard. As soon as Europeans arrived, of course, the indigenous economy was destroyed and the indigenous population fell sharply, ending the necessity for the practice, and European disapproval led to its rapid disappearance. Now that I have looked this up I might do an article on Infanticide in indigenous Australia. Adam 21:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe that this Wikipedia article needs to present more balance in regards to contemporary issues facing Aboriginal Australia. There seems to be a subtle biased view within the article. Constructive criticisms (fact based without the subjectivity of opinion) of Aboriginal Australia need to be available to balance the information presented, especially for the international audience.
For example, the main article mentions the fact that Aborigines live on average, 20 years less than the rest of mainstream Australia. This statement, left on its own, can lead to varying conclusions for the uneducated, ie: its's the Anglo Saxon's fault. It is a pity that life expectancies are not available for Aborigines circa 1788 for comparison. I believe that the points of poor personal hygeine and poor diet by Aborigines, especially in remote areas are the main cause of the shorter lifespan. Add in the fact of high rates of alcoholism, domestic violence, drug addiction, petrol sniffing, etc... these are main contributing factors in regards to teh lifespan issue.
Why aren't major instances of anti-social behaviour mentioned, for example: Palm Island riots, Redfern riots?
I believe that there also needs to be a subsection of the main article that highlights the failure of government policy in regards to positive discrimination. It just hasn't worked, and has created a destructive welfare culture. This has led, especially during the last generation, of people claiming Aboriginality simply for financial benefit (ie: Geoff Clark, whose father is Scottish). User:Michael Potts 11:30pm 9th November, 2005.
Michael Potts's point I think is that these statistics need to be seen in a social and historical context, and I agree. The fact that indigenous people have much poorer health on all statistical indicators is undisputed, but the real debate is around the reasons for this. It could be argued (not necessarily by me), that if a population chooses to live in a remote location where there is no possible employment, lives on junk food, drinks too much and allows its kids to sniff petrol, of course it will have poor health outcomes. This is a very complex debate. Adam 22:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Bainer, you are quite correct when stating that the largest population centers of Aborigines are located in NSW and QLD metropolitan and regional centers. However, I have to disagree with the wording of your statement, 'failure of the health system'. Personally, I see this statement as an indirect conclusion that 'white people are to blame'. There is only so much governments and charitible organisations can do, especially when there is a wide array of infrastructure to support them in large population centres. The old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but not make them drink" is very appropriate here. The main issue that does seem to hold back Aborigines is personal responsibility. The excuse of discrimination is holding less weight as time goes on, as it becomes more harder to visually distinguish who is an Aborigine, due to the fact that anyone can be one (all you have to do is identify as one, and be accepted into the community). So, for the residents of Redfern, etc... who live in a major international city, what excuse do they have, when there are schools, hospitals, readily available? Like I mentioned before... personal responsibility. Paternalism just does not work, and leads to the destructive welfare culture... thankfully the nation is starting to realize this. Another problem is 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. If people do have a poor opinion of Aborigines, their own self-actions don't help - for example: Palm Island Riots, Redfern Riots, high rates of illiteracy / alcoholism / drug dependancy (kava, marijuana) / petrol sniffing, etc... Aborgines were made citizens during the 1960's, like all Australians, citizenship comes with rights, but it also comes with responsibility. Anyway, how can we sum up these realities into the main article? User:Michael Potts 4:40pm 15th November, 2005
Hi. I moved the Tasmanian Aborigines to Indigenous Tasmanians to remain consistent. Was that was the correct thing to do, or should I change it back? Any thoughts? -- Hottentot
The last time I looked Tasmania was part of Australia. Adam 11:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I have a question in relation to the conventions that should be used in naming different groups (and articles on them). The Spinifex people are also called the Pila Nguru, a name I expect comes from their tradition - it is not explained in the article. In selecting article titles for Indigenous Australian groups what criteria should be used? The List of Australian Aboriginal tribes is based on Norman Tindales 1974 book and may be dated. Paul foord 10:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I would be interested to see some discussion regarding the intermarriage of indigenous Australians with colonial Australians for a couple of reasons:
I'm sure there are lots of valid reasons why this is occurring but currently the article doesn't talk about it at all. Garglebutt / (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
See the ABS website
It makes reference to "The Little Red, Yellow & Black and Green and Blue and White Book"
Aborigines weren't the first inhabitants of Australia. There were Homo erectus soloensis who were actually the first people to reach Australia. They had a high level of culture (for their species), such a high degree that I think they should count as the first inhabitants of Australia. However this is only my opinion so I'm not putting it in the article. But I do think to say the Aboriginals were the first inhabitants is a bit dishonest, as it ignores the previous inhabitants (even if those inhabitants weren't completely human).-- John Lynch 03:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm pretty certain that no hominid species other homo sapiens sapiens has ever been found in Australia. 09:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC) —preceding unsigned comment by Adam Carr ( talk • contribs)
Am I the only one who feels there is a lack of balance with regards to the current day? The article mentions high unemployment, high imprisonment etc but does not mention the well publicised allegations of a fair amount of discrimination by Australian employers and the police against indigenous Australians. Nor does it mention the well published allegations of a high level of discrimination and racism by the Australian public towards indigenous Australians. Someone mentioned it does not mention incidents such as the Redford riots, I agree it should but we need to also make sure we provide a brief summary of the background around the incidents (obviously the detail should be in the individual articles) so that people do not assume these incidents can be solely blamed indigenous Australians. 203.118.187.53 17:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a fair amount of stuff to this today, and plan to add more over the next few days. No doubt others will too. It's already 43kB, so perhaps the time has come to break it up a bit? Any views? Rayd8 11:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Rayd8 removed discrimination from the causes of poor health, saying that "this may well be your view, and many would agree with you, but it is an opinion, not a established fact, and so is inappropriate in wikipedia, which strives to maintain a neutral point of view. (rest of message is here)
I was not referring to lack of access to health care facilities, but ill-health caused by social determinants (the conditions in which people live and work), such as poverty, social exclusion (discrimination), inappropriate housing, unsafe employment conditions etc. ( WHO: Commission on Social Determinants of Health). This is quite agreed upon in the field of public health and health promotion.-- Ezeu 18:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but wikipedia policy is quite clear: "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable". Until you can cite verifiable evidence that discrimination is a cause of ill-health, you cannot list it as such. It will be a challenge to present this material from a neutral point of view, and listing unsubstantiated assertions isn't helpful. (I'm just waiting for someone who feels as strongly as you, but from the other side, to claim that "laziness" is a cause of unemployment!) If you want to be helpful, how about providing a statement from someone that discrimination is a cause of ill-health, and then we can cite that claim? As I flesh out that section, I plan to provide some quotes like that for the other issues.
But there is a more fundamental point here. Discrimination by itself does not cause ill health. But discrimination may be a factor which leads to poverty, unsafe employment, etc. These would be much more appropriate to list as factors than the vague and unverifiable word "discrimination".
BTW, you WHO reference you cite isn't sufficiently specific to back up your claim. It doesn't actually mention Australia, but is talking in much more general terms, and also says that verifiable data is lacking, and, indeed, one of its aims is to collect data to find the causes of ill-health. Rayd8 21:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I think a more contemporary image would be better for the top of the page than the current one. Indigenous Australians are often represented as belonging to the past (classically, the time of European arrival), rather than as a living culture. Maybe just the flag is neutral enough for the first image? Many pages about ethnic groups are now using a standard infobox template. See Berber for a good example, with a few photos to show both the past and present. I'm not 100% convinced by the infobox, but it's one option anyway. Any thoughts? — ntennis 15:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Harold Thomas sold his rights to the flag design to the Commonwealth as part of the settlement to his (rather dubious) claims to be the flag's designer. If the flag is now copyright, then the copyright holder is the Commonwealth. But I doubt that it is copyright. The flag is an official Australian flag under the Flags Act, so its legal status is the same as that of the Australian flag. Is the Australian flag copyright? Adam 08:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems ABC TV view the Aboriginal flag as copyrighted by Harold Thomas but consider it "fair use" to use the image in reporting news. They also point out that the preferred protocol for "indigenous media events" is to use the TSI and Aboriginal flags side by side, and that permission for use of the TSI flag can be obtained from the Island Coordinating Council. — ntennis 15:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
A flag can't be an official Australian flag and be the private property of an individual. I'm certain that Thomas has no rights to the flag image, but since I'm currently in Bangkok I can't pursue the matter. Adam 16:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The term includes the various indigenous peoples generally known to Europeans as Aborigines... has been changed to The term includes the various indigenous peoples commonly known as Aborigines... . I think Australian indigenous people today often self-reference into smaller groups, or by state - for example New South Welsh call themselves Kooris or by their tribe/nation (eg Wiradjuri). Bureaucrats ask them to self identify as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander for such organisations as education departments or Centrelink. I am sure they did not refer to themselves as Aborigines before 1788! It is a European word and refers to more than Australian Aborigines, for example there are Aborigines in Taiwan.-- A Y Arktos 20:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
We have been over this ground several times. "Aboriginal" is a generic term for indigenous peoples: there are aboriginal Canadians, aboriginal Taiwanese etc. But in Australia it was the standard descriptor for all the indigenous peoples except the Torres Strait Islanders (who are Melanesians) from very early days until recently. It is true that most indigenous Australians identify as belonging to a particular subgroup (Kooris, Wiradjuri etc), but none of these terms can be used as an overall descriptor. Since indigneous activists have made it clear that they now dislike the colonial-era overtones of "Aborigine," then "indigenous Australians" has become the only acceptable overall descriptor (as shown by the renaming of the Department of Indigneous Affairs and many other examples). Adam 08:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, i doubt Aboriginal activists represent the majority of australian aboriginies concerning colonial overtones such as "aborigine", really most have better things to care about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ithakan ( talk • contribs) .
That may be so, but it is always activist opinion which determines these things, as was shown for example with the shift from Negro to Black to African-American. Adam 14:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is clear that this article is becoming too long, and it is equally clear that there are still some glaring gaps (noted above) that have yet to be filled. It would be a great shame to restrict the amount of information in it because of length. Therefore some sections need to be moved to new articles. I'm happy to take on this job, but would appreciate the thoughts of other major contributors on how it should be broken up. Suggestions? Rayd8 22:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps Rayd8 could give us an outline here of how he/she would like to restructure the article. Adam 14:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this section title a bit POV seeing it expresses an opinion about the possible future development of indigneous—non-indigenous relations? Especially seeing as, like it or not, some people (indigenous or not) don't support reconcilation. -- Russell E 21:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | Indigenous Australians/Archive 2 received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This is the
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What happened to the article Prominent Indigenous Australians?? It was there a while ago Cfitzart 05:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
It's Prominent indigenous Australians. Indigenous is an adjective, not a proper noun. Adam 06:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
"Indigenous" and "aboriginal", as adjectives, mean exactly the same thing. "Aborigine" became established as a proper noun designator (that is, a name) for all the indigenous people of Australia except the Torres Strait Islanders, and thus acquired a capital "A." "Indigenous" is not meant to be merely a substitute name, which would be pointless. It is meant to be used as an adjective with a lower case "a", qualifying the noun "Australians." This makes two points: that the indigenous Australians are Australians, and that they are not a undifferentiated category but include many peoples who self-identify under various names. Adam 09:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
A recent edit summary removed a heading, with a comment along the lines of "doesn't need separate 'Australian Aborigines' heading - the whole article is about them". I think the heading was valuable, but seek consensus rather than immediate reversion (due to other edits): This article is about all indigenous Australians, which is usually taken to mean Aborigines, Torres Strait Islanders (and perhaps Tasmanian Aborigines separately). As such, if parts of the article are specifically not discussing TSI people, it is appropriate to put it under a heading of Australian Aborigines or similar, with the expectation of farming out a daughter article again when that content becomes large enough. Perhaps other parts of Australia are different, but here if someone says "Indigenous Australians", they are deliberately including TSI people as well as Aborigines, which looks really odd when reading an article about a remote community a few hundred kilometres from Alice Springs for example. -- Scott Davis Talk 09:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of renaming the articles was to get rid of the word "Aborigine," which is disliked by most politically active indigenous people, and replace it with the term "indigenous Australians". This is a description, not a name and thus doesn't take a capital "I". The Torres Strait Islanders are a subset of indigenous Australians who have a specific identity. Adam 10:24, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"Aboriginal Australian" is certainly preferable to "Aborigine". I don't mean to suggest that there is unanimity in the indigenous community about what name should be used: if there was it would be a much easier question than it is. But I think we had to get rid of "Aborigine" in the title of our "flagship" article on this subject. I am less fussed about the adjectival use in the articles you mention. Adam 14:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
It's not a question of "PC political camps" -- 'Aborigine' is widely accepted in academic fields to be unacceptable as a proper noun for indigenous Australians. Rather it refers to aboriginal peoples around the world. 'Aboriginal' as an adjective is acceptable, as this distinguishes from 'Torres Strait Islander' that 'indigenous' encompasses. It's actually preferable not to generalise at all considering indigenous Australians come from as many different cultural heritages as the states of Europe... http://www.uq.edu.au/about/index.html?page=5325&pid=5317 203.15.35.100 09:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)Ro
To me this text suggests that Indigenous Australians are all over 200 years old. "A people who..." or, preferably, "the people descended from those who..." would give the correct impression. But I hestitate to change it in case the current wording is the norm in history, ethnography or whatever... -- Rkundalini 01:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I noticed comparing the article with an older version that there is quite alot of text that has been removed. Is any of this useful for the current article? ---- Cfitzart 05:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC):
The first stage of my rewrite contained the following sentence, which someone has deleted: "This article describes Australia's indigenous peoples, their prehistory and history, and their present circumstances. For the history of Australian government policy towards the indigenous Australians, see Australian governments and indigenous Australians." I still intend writing this second article, perhaps this weekend if I get time. I deleted some of the above material because it fits better in the proposed second article than in this one, which should be about indigenous Australians themselves. Some of the earlier stuff I deleted because I thought it was repetitious or too detailed for an article of this length. Adam 09:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes - 8 is also factually wrong. If you want to restore some of the others I am not going to argue about it. Adam 09:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
So long as no-one looks at it for a while :) Adam 10:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Is it possible that we could attach to the article links to particular groups? I have added some detail to the Kaurna group and I would like this linked to this page. How about working on some other particular groups? Frances76 11:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Cheers :)
Frances76
22:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
There is evidence to suggest that some indigenous communities did in fact have systems of agriculture in place for growing yams etc (it is not true that no indigenous plants are able to be cultivated) and there is significant evidence pointing to the farming of, or at least sophisticated management and culling of, populations of fish and kangaroo... What do we say about editing that bit or maybe making a new page about 'Bush tucker'?
Agriculture means the deliberate annual planting and harvesting of food plants. Management of food resources, which all hunter gatherers do, is not the same thing. I agree that it is not true that there were no cultivable plants in Australia (although I'm not sure the yam is native to Australia). But the development of agriculture was a response to scarcity caused either by climate change or population growth, and the indigenous populations in fertile areas never experienced sufficient scarcity to make the additional labour required by agriculture necessary. Population was controlled through infanticide, which the article should mention. Adam 06:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
The 'native Yam' or 'Yam Daisy' (Microseris scapigera) was native to southern Austrlia from alps to the coast. It was a staple food. It has an unusual genotype which points to it human manipulation in the past. I agree that to use the word 'agriculture' cant be allowed however the following phrase ' as there are virtually no indigenous plants in Australia which can be cultivated 'is hard to sustain. Plants arent cultivatable. They become so by human genetic manipulation. Anyway I think that the phrase is redundant-(I hate the word virtual) and theres no need for it. Eric A. Warbuton 06:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm astonished to say I agree with Eric. Adam 06:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Yet another example of the constant tendency at Wikipedia to redefine things in a more "inclusive" way so as not to offend PC sentiment. To suggest that hunter-gatherer societies didn't practice agriculture seems vaguely offensive to the PC soul, because it suggests they were "primitive" - a very bad thing to suggest - and because is more "progressive" to farm than to hunt (a false assumption, as I explain below). So we redefine agriculture to include whatever it is that hunter-gatherers do, thus offending no-one but rendering the word meaningless. Agriculture is what farmers do: they plant seeds and harvest crops, and they domesticate animals for food. Hunter-gatherers hunt and gather. They manage naturally occuring plants and animals in various ways, but they don't plant crops or domesticate food animals. Indigenous Australians did the latter and not the former. There is nothing derogatory or pejorative about stating this. Adam 12:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
There is an assumption here that people will and should practise agriculture if it is possible for them to do so. This is a misunderstanding of social evolution, which, like biological evolution, is the result of the pressure of natural selection. People only developed agriculture when and where they were forced to do so by scarcity. Farmers have to work much harder than hunter gatherers in temperate areas. If a population can live well by hunter-gathering, it will keep on hunter-gathering for ever, unless acted on by external forces. Adam 12:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
i agree that there is a false assumption that agriculture is better than hunter-gatherer etc, but i think that there is a need to mention the systems of land management used as an explanation that hunter-gatherer doesn't mean that indigenous Australians didn't participate in the management of the land; there seems to be a belief that indigenous people associated differently with the land and this was how the whole concept of terra nullius came about.. recognising that in fact indigenous people impacted upon, managed, and engaged in food production i feel is necessary to ensuring the correct portrayal of indigenous culture ~Ro
Adam - please corroborate your claims that indigenous populations were controlled through infanticide?
Why do i constantly find attacks to political correctness on wikipedia? What's so wrong about political correctness? Our culture is shaped by the language we use, and describing things correctly and inclusively aids the unbiased understanding of issues... presenting all sides of the argument seems to come under criticism of being 'PC' and obsessive about detail, but given that we are creating a document of some degree of truth, why is seeking to portray things as correctly and inoffensively as possible such a bad thing??
In response:
Adam 09:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
On infanticide in pre-1788 indigenous society, see Gillian Cowlinshaw, Infanticide in Aboriginal Australia, "Oceania," XLVIII No 4, June 1978, 262. Cowlinshaw (Dept of Athropology, Sydney Uni), based on a study of early eyewitnesses and other sources, gives estimates that up to 30% of newborns were killed in some parts of Australia. Categories killed almost automatically were twins, infants with deformities, infants which gave pain to the mother during delivery, and infants born while the mother was still breast-feeding a previous child - which together would have been a significant proportion of all births. In some places a woman's firstborn child was always killed. Various cultural and/or religious reasons were usually cited for these practices, but the origin for them is obviously that in a mobile hunter-gatherer community, which must constantly follow its food sources, there is a strict limit on the number of infants that can be cared for. Cowlinshaw disagrees with the view that infanticide was a conscious device for population control (but she cites other writers who do hold this view). It is not however necessary to argue that indigenous people had a conscious desire to limit population through infanticide, any more than it is necessary to argue that giraffes had a conscious desire to evolve long necks. Natural selection drives both species and human societies in certain directions. The effect of infanticide in hunter-gatherer societies (not just indigenous Australian society) was to limit population and thus reduce pressure on food sources, and those groups which first practised it gained an evolutionary advantage which in time led the practice to become standard. As soon as Europeans arrived, of course, the indigenous economy was destroyed and the indigenous population fell sharply, ending the necessity for the practice, and European disapproval led to its rapid disappearance. Now that I have looked this up I might do an article on Infanticide in indigenous Australia. Adam 21:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe that this Wikipedia article needs to present more balance in regards to contemporary issues facing Aboriginal Australia. There seems to be a subtle biased view within the article. Constructive criticisms (fact based without the subjectivity of opinion) of Aboriginal Australia need to be available to balance the information presented, especially for the international audience.
For example, the main article mentions the fact that Aborigines live on average, 20 years less than the rest of mainstream Australia. This statement, left on its own, can lead to varying conclusions for the uneducated, ie: its's the Anglo Saxon's fault. It is a pity that life expectancies are not available for Aborigines circa 1788 for comparison. I believe that the points of poor personal hygeine and poor diet by Aborigines, especially in remote areas are the main cause of the shorter lifespan. Add in the fact of high rates of alcoholism, domestic violence, drug addiction, petrol sniffing, etc... these are main contributing factors in regards to teh lifespan issue.
Why aren't major instances of anti-social behaviour mentioned, for example: Palm Island riots, Redfern riots?
I believe that there also needs to be a subsection of the main article that highlights the failure of government policy in regards to positive discrimination. It just hasn't worked, and has created a destructive welfare culture. This has led, especially during the last generation, of people claiming Aboriginality simply for financial benefit (ie: Geoff Clark, whose father is Scottish). User:Michael Potts 11:30pm 9th November, 2005.
Michael Potts's point I think is that these statistics need to be seen in a social and historical context, and I agree. The fact that indigenous people have much poorer health on all statistical indicators is undisputed, but the real debate is around the reasons for this. It could be argued (not necessarily by me), that if a population chooses to live in a remote location where there is no possible employment, lives on junk food, drinks too much and allows its kids to sniff petrol, of course it will have poor health outcomes. This is a very complex debate. Adam 22:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Bainer, you are quite correct when stating that the largest population centers of Aborigines are located in NSW and QLD metropolitan and regional centers. However, I have to disagree with the wording of your statement, 'failure of the health system'. Personally, I see this statement as an indirect conclusion that 'white people are to blame'. There is only so much governments and charitible organisations can do, especially when there is a wide array of infrastructure to support them in large population centres. The old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but not make them drink" is very appropriate here. The main issue that does seem to hold back Aborigines is personal responsibility. The excuse of discrimination is holding less weight as time goes on, as it becomes more harder to visually distinguish who is an Aborigine, due to the fact that anyone can be one (all you have to do is identify as one, and be accepted into the community). So, for the residents of Redfern, etc... who live in a major international city, what excuse do they have, when there are schools, hospitals, readily available? Like I mentioned before... personal responsibility. Paternalism just does not work, and leads to the destructive welfare culture... thankfully the nation is starting to realize this. Another problem is 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. If people do have a poor opinion of Aborigines, their own self-actions don't help - for example: Palm Island Riots, Redfern Riots, high rates of illiteracy / alcoholism / drug dependancy (kava, marijuana) / petrol sniffing, etc... Aborgines were made citizens during the 1960's, like all Australians, citizenship comes with rights, but it also comes with responsibility. Anyway, how can we sum up these realities into the main article? User:Michael Potts 4:40pm 15th November, 2005
Hi. I moved the Tasmanian Aborigines to Indigenous Tasmanians to remain consistent. Was that was the correct thing to do, or should I change it back? Any thoughts? -- Hottentot
The last time I looked Tasmania was part of Australia. Adam 11:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I have a question in relation to the conventions that should be used in naming different groups (and articles on them). The Spinifex people are also called the Pila Nguru, a name I expect comes from their tradition - it is not explained in the article. In selecting article titles for Indigenous Australian groups what criteria should be used? The List of Australian Aboriginal tribes is based on Norman Tindales 1974 book and may be dated. Paul foord 10:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I would be interested to see some discussion regarding the intermarriage of indigenous Australians with colonial Australians for a couple of reasons:
I'm sure there are lots of valid reasons why this is occurring but currently the article doesn't talk about it at all. Garglebutt / (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
See the ABS website
It makes reference to "The Little Red, Yellow & Black and Green and Blue and White Book"
Aborigines weren't the first inhabitants of Australia. There were Homo erectus soloensis who were actually the first people to reach Australia. They had a high level of culture (for their species), such a high degree that I think they should count as the first inhabitants of Australia. However this is only my opinion so I'm not putting it in the article. But I do think to say the Aboriginals were the first inhabitants is a bit dishonest, as it ignores the previous inhabitants (even if those inhabitants weren't completely human).-- John Lynch 03:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm pretty certain that no hominid species other homo sapiens sapiens has ever been found in Australia. 09:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC) —preceding unsigned comment by Adam Carr ( talk • contribs)
Am I the only one who feels there is a lack of balance with regards to the current day? The article mentions high unemployment, high imprisonment etc but does not mention the well publicised allegations of a fair amount of discrimination by Australian employers and the police against indigenous Australians. Nor does it mention the well published allegations of a high level of discrimination and racism by the Australian public towards indigenous Australians. Someone mentioned it does not mention incidents such as the Redford riots, I agree it should but we need to also make sure we provide a brief summary of the background around the incidents (obviously the detail should be in the individual articles) so that people do not assume these incidents can be solely blamed indigenous Australians. 203.118.187.53 17:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a fair amount of stuff to this today, and plan to add more over the next few days. No doubt others will too. It's already 43kB, so perhaps the time has come to break it up a bit? Any views? Rayd8 11:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Rayd8 removed discrimination from the causes of poor health, saying that "this may well be your view, and many would agree with you, but it is an opinion, not a established fact, and so is inappropriate in wikipedia, which strives to maintain a neutral point of view. (rest of message is here)
I was not referring to lack of access to health care facilities, but ill-health caused by social determinants (the conditions in which people live and work), such as poverty, social exclusion (discrimination), inappropriate housing, unsafe employment conditions etc. ( WHO: Commission on Social Determinants of Health). This is quite agreed upon in the field of public health and health promotion.-- Ezeu 18:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but wikipedia policy is quite clear: "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable". Until you can cite verifiable evidence that discrimination is a cause of ill-health, you cannot list it as such. It will be a challenge to present this material from a neutral point of view, and listing unsubstantiated assertions isn't helpful. (I'm just waiting for someone who feels as strongly as you, but from the other side, to claim that "laziness" is a cause of unemployment!) If you want to be helpful, how about providing a statement from someone that discrimination is a cause of ill-health, and then we can cite that claim? As I flesh out that section, I plan to provide some quotes like that for the other issues.
But there is a more fundamental point here. Discrimination by itself does not cause ill health. But discrimination may be a factor which leads to poverty, unsafe employment, etc. These would be much more appropriate to list as factors than the vague and unverifiable word "discrimination".
BTW, you WHO reference you cite isn't sufficiently specific to back up your claim. It doesn't actually mention Australia, but is talking in much more general terms, and also says that verifiable data is lacking, and, indeed, one of its aims is to collect data to find the causes of ill-health. Rayd8 21:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I think a more contemporary image would be better for the top of the page than the current one. Indigenous Australians are often represented as belonging to the past (classically, the time of European arrival), rather than as a living culture. Maybe just the flag is neutral enough for the first image? Many pages about ethnic groups are now using a standard infobox template. See Berber for a good example, with a few photos to show both the past and present. I'm not 100% convinced by the infobox, but it's one option anyway. Any thoughts? — ntennis 15:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Harold Thomas sold his rights to the flag design to the Commonwealth as part of the settlement to his (rather dubious) claims to be the flag's designer. If the flag is now copyright, then the copyright holder is the Commonwealth. But I doubt that it is copyright. The flag is an official Australian flag under the Flags Act, so its legal status is the same as that of the Australian flag. Is the Australian flag copyright? Adam 08:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems ABC TV view the Aboriginal flag as copyrighted by Harold Thomas but consider it "fair use" to use the image in reporting news. They also point out that the preferred protocol for "indigenous media events" is to use the TSI and Aboriginal flags side by side, and that permission for use of the TSI flag can be obtained from the Island Coordinating Council. — ntennis 15:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
A flag can't be an official Australian flag and be the private property of an individual. I'm certain that Thomas has no rights to the flag image, but since I'm currently in Bangkok I can't pursue the matter. Adam 16:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The term includes the various indigenous peoples generally known to Europeans as Aborigines... has been changed to The term includes the various indigenous peoples commonly known as Aborigines... . I think Australian indigenous people today often self-reference into smaller groups, or by state - for example New South Welsh call themselves Kooris or by their tribe/nation (eg Wiradjuri). Bureaucrats ask them to self identify as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander for such organisations as education departments or Centrelink. I am sure they did not refer to themselves as Aborigines before 1788! It is a European word and refers to more than Australian Aborigines, for example there are Aborigines in Taiwan.-- A Y Arktos 20:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
We have been over this ground several times. "Aboriginal" is a generic term for indigenous peoples: there are aboriginal Canadians, aboriginal Taiwanese etc. But in Australia it was the standard descriptor for all the indigenous peoples except the Torres Strait Islanders (who are Melanesians) from very early days until recently. It is true that most indigenous Australians identify as belonging to a particular subgroup (Kooris, Wiradjuri etc), but none of these terms can be used as an overall descriptor. Since indigneous activists have made it clear that they now dislike the colonial-era overtones of "Aborigine," then "indigenous Australians" has become the only acceptable overall descriptor (as shown by the renaming of the Department of Indigneous Affairs and many other examples). Adam 08:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, i doubt Aboriginal activists represent the majority of australian aboriginies concerning colonial overtones such as "aborigine", really most have better things to care about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ithakan ( talk • contribs) .
That may be so, but it is always activist opinion which determines these things, as was shown for example with the shift from Negro to Black to African-American. Adam 14:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it is clear that this article is becoming too long, and it is equally clear that there are still some glaring gaps (noted above) that have yet to be filled. It would be a great shame to restrict the amount of information in it because of length. Therefore some sections need to be moved to new articles. I'm happy to take on this job, but would appreciate the thoughts of other major contributors on how it should be broken up. Suggestions? Rayd8 22:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps Rayd8 could give us an outline here of how he/she would like to restructure the article. Adam 14:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this section title a bit POV seeing it expresses an opinion about the possible future development of indigneous—non-indigenous relations? Especially seeing as, like it or not, some people (indigenous or not) don't support reconcilation. -- Russell E 21:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)