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I was inspired to do this one because of exactly what you said. I wanted to do an Indian bird and thought about the
Indian peafowl but that would be a bit much. I'm going to work on turtle as so it would be better to do an easier article alongside it. Anyway, do you have any book recommendation?
LittleJerry (
talk)
22:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I do not see any issues with keeping old references, unless the facts themselves have subsequently been questioned. In fact some old descriptions tend to be better as those references were meant for museum workers as opposed to what is given in field guides - and meant merely for distinguishing / identification.
Shyamal (
talk)
13:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I also agree to keep them. I didn't yet find any source about Indian roller in Iran. You? But a few locality records in Nepal Terai. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
20:14, 7 April 2021 (UTC)reply
The first 2 are already referenced. Sorry, I can't really recommend a book, have only field guides with rudimentary info. I think we'll have to build this one up with refs to journal articles. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
08:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Great work so far! Do you think the 2nd paragraph re The Indochinese roller is darker, ... in the section Description is needed? I'm tempted to remove this. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
11:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree - we should explain how the Indian roller differs from the Indochinese roller -they were formerly considered as conspecific and two species are sympatric in west Assam. The species could be confused -
WP:Birds suggests that similar species are mentioned under Description. We already mention the European roller that migrates across the range of the Indian roller. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
13:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
@
BhagyaMani: I am thinking that most sources kept them as single species - see
this until very recently. I'd be almost certain that is what has happened in all these forktails and all these actually refer to affinis. Rasmussen's opinion carries considerable weight and she highlighted the hybrid zones (i.e. leaning towards the lump rather than split)
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
13:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Sources
Rasmussen and Anderton 2012 (cited in article) is a large authoritative modern field guide but as such has nothing on breeding etc.
HBW Vol. 6 available
here (registration required) has a short section on p. 271 on the species. There is also a large section on the family Coraciidae (pp 342-370) which is very general and probably not useful. These are written by Fry.
Fry, Fry and Harris (1992) Kingfishers, Bee-eaters and Rollers see Amazon
here has three pages on the Indian roller (pp 289-291) (The range map currently in the article cites this book as its source but the map on p. 98 in Fry et al is tiny and doesn't include the hatched area in the
Arabian Peninsula)
BWP Cramp 1985 Vol 5 IV pp 778-783 (cited in article) has a section on the Indian roller - even though the range of the Indian Roller hardly extends into the Western Palearctic area considered by the BWP. The account is cited by Fry and is much more detailed than the above sources. The BWP includes inline cites (including to Lamba (1963) and Stonor (1944) that are now in the Further reading section).
The paragraph on the voice is uncited. Although my sources all describe the calls I struggle with representing the calls using the Latin alphabet. Fry has "chack" and "tschow", Rasmussen has KCHYal and grRK-grRK-grRK. Cramp has "k'yow", "kak" and "chack" and alsp "kri -- kri" given by both birds during copulation. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
15:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Super! Meanwhile I downloaded also the 3rd page of Fry & Fry, in which they referenced only Cramp (1985). How should we handle this on the page : always reference both? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
07:54, 12 April 2021 (UTC)reply
LittleJerry: I assume you are referring to the text on p. 778 in the Field characters section: "Wing and tail colours much as C. garrulus but patterns more contrasting with greater extend of pale blue across primary coverts and outer section of primaries obvious in flight."
There is only a very brief mention of tail feathers in the Field characters section of the C. garralus article (Cramp IV p. 764) "... pale green-blue outer webs to tail feathers, ...".
Note that the individual tail feathers of C. benghalensis (t1, t2 etc) are described by Cramp on p. 782 - but Wikipedia articles generally don't include this level of detail. Fry p. 289 has "The tail is not streamered, and its azured sides can be hard to see." -
Aa77zz (
talk)
11:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I think it would be accurate to say that the tail feathers are blue and purple (like the wings) but the sources don't describe it like that.
LittleJerry (
talk)
13:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
See Edwards' description: The rump and covert-feathers above the tail are of a fine blue or ultramarine colour; the middle feathers of the tail are green; the outside feathers are of an ultramarine blue, .. I was lucky to sight + photograph the Indian roller at several places, and think that his description and colours mentioned fit perfectly !! --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
14:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I have 3 values that don't differ significantly: +/- 31 cm in Ali & Ripley (1983; Birds of Indian SC); 30-34 cm in Fry & Fry (2010); 33 cm in Grimmett et al. (2015; Birds of Nepal). We can references all of them? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
21:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I've noticed that it is not uncommon for different sources to give significant different lengths for a bird species. Sometimes the range of lengths given by two sources don't even overlap. Although the long articles in Cramp include detailed measurements of different bird parts from various studies, these do not include the overall length of a live bird. For the Indian roller, there is the additional complication that the sources usually lump the larger affinis, with the nominate and indica. Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 p. 178 treat affinis separately and give >31 cm for affinis and <31cm for benghalensis.
Rasmussen and Anderton discuss the overall length of live bird species in the introduction (Vol. 2 p. 18). Rasmussen works with skins and for the book has taken the length of live specimens from Ali and Ripley (1983). Confusingly the lengths given by Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 are of live birds but in vol 2 the measurements were obtained from museum skins - measured from the base of the skull to the tip of the tail - and are much smaller. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
08:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Possible that Ali & Ripley (1983)'s value is based on earlier accounts in the JNHBS about Indian roller in India only. I'll try to find out. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
09:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm going to replace the old sources (aside from the historically important ones in taxonomy). With the general sources Aa77zz highlighted above, there's no reason for to use sources this ancient. The FAC reviewers will pick up on that.
LittleJerry (
talk)
20:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Cloud can be at google drive or dropbox or wetransfer or any other company that offers webspace for free. You upload a file + share it via a link so that those who have the link can download it. You can post the link here and remove the file as soon as I let you know that I downloaded it. Let me know if you need an example. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
19:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Not yet. Am not ready to share my personal email address and don't have one at gmail, so will have to register one for that purpose only. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
19:29, 20 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I think I like Cramp's chapter best, as he provides so many details and the sources, many of them published in the JBNHS. Saw Ali & Ripley cited a couple of times. Gimme some time to read it all. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
20:24, 20 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Didn't intend to. But we can or I would like to follow up on some of the sources cited in Cramp's. E.g. his description of "bare parts" on page 782 is copy-pasted from Ali & Ripley (1970), but this description is exactly the same as in Ali's article about the Hyderabad bird survey, published in JBNHS 1938, one of his early articles. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
20:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I have a few RL issues that are distracting me and feel as if I need some undisturbed time to digest this one. My idea was to digest all the scanned book material first before going to journals. Article still needs a para at end of description on similar species and how it can be distinguished from them. Also I suspect more could be added on habitat. I am sorry have been distracted. I'd do these myself but am a bit tied up for the next 24 hours. Feel free to add otherwise I'll get onto it later.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
20:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Right folks, can anyone see any issues outstanding before GAN. @
BhagyaMani: we need to have consistent referencing. I generally prefer not to use ampersands in the author lists but don't care enough to argue about it - if you really want to use them then all references need to have them. Either way (all refs or none using ampersands) is okay, we just need to pick a format and stick to it.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
02:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks Shyamal. I also found the link to southasiaarchive. Is the reference in the page correct? Or should the Anthropology series be ref'ed differently? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
12:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Have no idea how "Part III" after the volume could be inserted in an appropriate way with our current citation templates.
Shyamal (
talk)
14:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Ok, up to you. But thought you should be acknowledged too. I went mugger, you might have seen that. And planning to GAN this perhaps by next week. Would you like to join in ? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
12:58, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
This is already in good shape; it has a lot of good detail, and is generally well-written. That said, there are some nitpiks. If you'll strike these out as you deal with them, it will help me to know what you've fixed.
The lede should be a summary of the article. Right now, it has no information about the diet or reproductive ecology of these birds. That should be added.
I'd suggest you add the basics of the nest, number of young, etc. Something like: "The female lays 3–5 eggs in a cavity or crevice, which is lined with a thin mat of straw or feathers."
The map in the infobox has two colours, but only one colour is explained in the key.
The map in Fry is tiny (Plate 37 page 98). It doesn't include the shaded area on the
Arabian Peninsula depicted in our range map - although Fry is the cited source. I've looked at other range maps. The shaded area is not included on the map in Cramp (p. 779). The shaded area is depicted as a Non-Breeding" area on the map on the Cornell/HBW webpage
here (subscription required) but not on the
ebird page (also Cornell). It is depicted on the IUCN map as a Non-breeding area
here. The map on
Xeno-Canto does not include it. I've added the IUCN as an additional source for the map on Commons. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
09:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
The iucn assessors apparently neglected the report on breeding birds in the Arabian peninsula, which I had added a while ago to section Conservation: acc. to this report, it IS indeed breeding there, see ref 49. So I suggest that we change the colours in map. Or how should we handle this discrepancy? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
09:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
On the other hand, two of the iucn rl compilers are also authors of above report, viz Symes & Taylor. Strange though that the report is not listed in the bibliography of this account. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
10:22, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
What discrepancy? The sources agree that the Indian roller breeds in United Arab Emirates and northern Oman - they differ only in the non-breeding area. I cannot see a range map for the Indian roller in Symes et al (ref 49). They mention breeding but that could be in the United Arab Emirates and northern Oman.
Aa77zz (
talk)
10:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
For some birds listed in this appendix, they mentioned individual countries or regions. So I assumed that when referring to Arabian peninsula, they mean not only UAE and Oman, but also Saudi Arabia. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
12:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
There are a few eBird sightings in the shaded area recorded
here
Check the footnote numbers. MOS says they should be in numerical order, but they aren't in several cases.
In the paragraph about the first description of the species, in the sentence "...derived from a drawing by illustrator Joseph Dandridge, who in turn received a drawing...", there should be a "had" before received.
Consider linking some of the potentially less well-known body parts (maybe tail coverts, underwing coverts, primary coverts, lesser coverts, axillaries) with birdgloss entries.
"... with a similar pale blue band across the most lateral five or six flight feathers" You mean distal rather than lateral (i.e. the feathers on the wing that are farthest from the body)
"A scanning electron micrograph of the Indian roller's blue feathers shows a channel-type nanostructure with β-keratin rods and air channels." What does this even mean?!
"Kaarsch calls are made during rolling displays and increase in frequency and volume as it flies towards an intruder." "It" should be replaced by "the bird".
"When perched side by side, rollers make chattering heard as staccato." I think there must be some words missing here, as this sentence makes no sense.
Arg! Sorry about the delay. Too many irons in the fire!
I'm a bit confused by some of the Distribution section. For instance, the sentence "In the early 1970s, it was observed in the marshes and mudflats of Shadegan County in Iran where it was a common winter visitor." suggests that it is no longer found in that country. Is that correct or does this need to be made clearer? And the sentence "It has been recorded as a summer visitor to Jalalabad in northeastern Afghanistan." suggests it's only there in the summer. It would be good if this section clearly identified where the bird breeds, where it's resident and where it winters, if those are different places. It's pretty piecemeal at the moment.
"They patrol their territory by flying at the tree tops or three-stories high and when an intruder is spotted, they are driven away by a fast rolling flight." Is this meant to say that they fly at treetop height? It's not clear at the moment. In the second half of the sentence "an intruder" should be followed by "it is", not "they are".
"It has also been observed perching in trees and shrubs at a height of 3–9 m (10–30 ft) from where it forages for ground insects." As a birder, I think I understand what you mean here, but it's not going to be clear to nonbirders how a bird "forages for ground insects" from 9 metres! Perhaps "It perches in trees and shrubs at a height of 3-9 m (10-30 ft), dropping to the ground when it spots prey"?
"The display of the Indian roller is aerobatic with twists and turns and is attracted by fires." Do fires really cause the bird to make display flights? Or are there two completely unrelated details in this sentence?
It has been observed to follow tractors for disturbed invertebrates "observed following" rather than "observed to follow".
"Crows are driven away from nests and have even been recorded repeatedly divebombing an Egyptian vulture." Right now, this sentence says crows divebomb Egyptian vultures, which I'm sure is not what you mean.
In the sentence "... display to each other with bows, dropped wings, fanned tails..." there should be an "and" before fanned tails.
The Indian roller descends to the ground to capture insects and too a lesser extent amphibians, reptiles, birds, and small mammals. should be "to a lesser extent", not "too a lesser extent".
It is attracted to swarms of winged termites, and as many as 40 birds have been seen to perch on a 70 m (230 ft) stretch of electric wire. Were the 40 birds on the wire because of a swarm of winged termities? That's not clear here. Maybe add "to take advantage of one swarm", or some such?
"As of 2016, the Indian roller is listed as Least Concern on the IUCN Red List..." should be "...listed as a species of least concern" And "least concern" should be lowercase, per WP:MOS.
"Adding its chopped feathers to fodder for cows was believed to increase the latters milk yield, giving them also the Telugu name of pɑːla-pitta or milk bird." Latters should have an apostrophe, and you've switched tenses from singular to plural here "its --> them".
There are two issues that don't appear to have been sorted yet. I'll paste them in again below:
I'm a bit confused by some of the Distribution section. For instance, the sentence "In the early 1970s, it was observed in the marshes and mudflats of Shadegan County in Iran where it was a common winter visitor." suggests that it is no longer found in that country. Is that correct or does this need to be made clearer? And the sentence "It has been recorded as a summer visitor to Jalalabad in northeastern Afghanistan." suggests it's only there in the summer. It would be good if this section clearly identified where the bird breeds, where it's resident and where it winters, if those are different places. It's pretty piecemeal at the moment.
@
MeegsC: Re Shadegan County: I found about a handful of publications about birds in the Shadegan wetlands dating 2010+, but Indian roller is not listed in any of them. So it's not clear whether it is still a winter visitor there. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
15:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Okay, let's hear what they have to say. I guess I'd suggest adding something like "More recent reports no longer include the roller." or something similar to the sentence about Iran, to make it clear the bird is no longer regularly seen there.
I am not sure that I can embellish without violating OR. The source recalls records from the 1970s and I can imagine that whole area being easier to do birdwatching then than now (well, since the early 1980s actually) so who knows. I am busy with RL chores. Need to sleep and look at records again.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
12:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I think that if the section is tweaked somewhat to indicate broadly where the species is resident, where it winters and where it breeds, with an indication of where the status is uncertain, that will suffice. Right now, I find the very specific locations for Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan a bit odd, given that the article is nowhere near as specific about its occurrence elsewhere. Saying that the last reliable reports of them wintering in Iran date from the 1970s would be perfectly acceptable, I should think.
@
MeegsC: I have rearranged it - order is now general resident/summer visitor/vagrant/historical winter visitor, thus moving from confirmed/abundant to vagrant to historical. I often add specific areas at the borders of a bird's range to be as exact as possible regarding distribution - i.e. no point mentioning anywhere specific from the middle of its range as it occurs all around, but I feel the edges (where known) are important.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
12:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)reply
"The display of the Indian roller is aerobatic with twists and turns and is attracted by fires." Do fires really cause the bird to make display flights? Or are there two completely unrelated details in this sentence?
Happy to give this one its star. Nice work, everybody! If you're thinking of taking this to FA, I'd consider adding informative captions to the pictures (i.e. something other than "Bird in location" or "Bird eating insect" – particularly in the newly added gallery.
MeegsC (
talk)
09:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)reply
If and when this passes FA review, I suggest it be nominated for TFA on 1 November. As Karnataka's state bird, it's only right that it appears on Karnataka's state day. I also plan to improve a few other articles by then - at least
Vidhana Soudha - so that we can have several Karnataka-related entries on 1 November.
Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVIconverse |
fings wot i hav dun16:53, 19 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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I was inspired to do this one because of exactly what you said. I wanted to do an Indian bird and thought about the
Indian peafowl but that would be a bit much. I'm going to work on turtle as so it would be better to do an easier article alongside it. Anyway, do you have any book recommendation?
LittleJerry (
talk)
22:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I do not see any issues with keeping old references, unless the facts themselves have subsequently been questioned. In fact some old descriptions tend to be better as those references were meant for museum workers as opposed to what is given in field guides - and meant merely for distinguishing / identification.
Shyamal (
talk)
13:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I also agree to keep them. I didn't yet find any source about Indian roller in Iran. You? But a few locality records in Nepal Terai. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
20:14, 7 April 2021 (UTC)reply
The first 2 are already referenced. Sorry, I can't really recommend a book, have only field guides with rudimentary info. I think we'll have to build this one up with refs to journal articles. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
08:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Great work so far! Do you think the 2nd paragraph re The Indochinese roller is darker, ... in the section Description is needed? I'm tempted to remove this. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
11:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I agree - we should explain how the Indian roller differs from the Indochinese roller -they were formerly considered as conspecific and two species are sympatric in west Assam. The species could be confused -
WP:Birds suggests that similar species are mentioned under Description. We already mention the European roller that migrates across the range of the Indian roller. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
13:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
@
BhagyaMani: I am thinking that most sources kept them as single species - see
this until very recently. I'd be almost certain that is what has happened in all these forktails and all these actually refer to affinis. Rasmussen's opinion carries considerable weight and she highlighted the hybrid zones (i.e. leaning towards the lump rather than split)
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
13:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Sources
Rasmussen and Anderton 2012 (cited in article) is a large authoritative modern field guide but as such has nothing on breeding etc.
HBW Vol. 6 available
here (registration required) has a short section on p. 271 on the species. There is also a large section on the family Coraciidae (pp 342-370) which is very general and probably not useful. These are written by Fry.
Fry, Fry and Harris (1992) Kingfishers, Bee-eaters and Rollers see Amazon
here has three pages on the Indian roller (pp 289-291) (The range map currently in the article cites this book as its source but the map on p. 98 in Fry et al is tiny and doesn't include the hatched area in the
Arabian Peninsula)
BWP Cramp 1985 Vol 5 IV pp 778-783 (cited in article) has a section on the Indian roller - even though the range of the Indian Roller hardly extends into the Western Palearctic area considered by the BWP. The account is cited by Fry and is much more detailed than the above sources. The BWP includes inline cites (including to Lamba (1963) and Stonor (1944) that are now in the Further reading section).
The paragraph on the voice is uncited. Although my sources all describe the calls I struggle with representing the calls using the Latin alphabet. Fry has "chack" and "tschow", Rasmussen has KCHYal and grRK-grRK-grRK. Cramp has "k'yow", "kak" and "chack" and alsp "kri -- kri" given by both birds during copulation. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
15:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Super! Meanwhile I downloaded also the 3rd page of Fry & Fry, in which they referenced only Cramp (1985). How should we handle this on the page : always reference both? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
07:54, 12 April 2021 (UTC)reply
LittleJerry: I assume you are referring to the text on p. 778 in the Field characters section: "Wing and tail colours much as C. garrulus but patterns more contrasting with greater extend of pale blue across primary coverts and outer section of primaries obvious in flight."
There is only a very brief mention of tail feathers in the Field characters section of the C. garralus article (Cramp IV p. 764) "... pale green-blue outer webs to tail feathers, ...".
Note that the individual tail feathers of C. benghalensis (t1, t2 etc) are described by Cramp on p. 782 - but Wikipedia articles generally don't include this level of detail. Fry p. 289 has "The tail is not streamered, and its azured sides can be hard to see." -
Aa77zz (
talk)
11:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I think it would be accurate to say that the tail feathers are blue and purple (like the wings) but the sources don't describe it like that.
LittleJerry (
talk)
13:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
See Edwards' description: The rump and covert-feathers above the tail are of a fine blue or ultramarine colour; the middle feathers of the tail are green; the outside feathers are of an ultramarine blue, .. I was lucky to sight + photograph the Indian roller at several places, and think that his description and colours mentioned fit perfectly !! --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
14:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I have 3 values that don't differ significantly: +/- 31 cm in Ali & Ripley (1983; Birds of Indian SC); 30-34 cm in Fry & Fry (2010); 33 cm in Grimmett et al. (2015; Birds of Nepal). We can references all of them? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
21:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I've noticed that it is not uncommon for different sources to give significant different lengths for a bird species. Sometimes the range of lengths given by two sources don't even overlap. Although the long articles in Cramp include detailed measurements of different bird parts from various studies, these do not include the overall length of a live bird. For the Indian roller, there is the additional complication that the sources usually lump the larger affinis, with the nominate and indica. Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 p. 178 treat affinis separately and give >31 cm for affinis and <31cm for benghalensis.
Rasmussen and Anderton discuss the overall length of live bird species in the introduction (Vol. 2 p. 18). Rasmussen works with skins and for the book has taken the length of live specimens from Ali and Ripley (1983). Confusingly the lengths given by Rasmussen and Anderton in Vol 1 are of live birds but in vol 2 the measurements were obtained from museum skins - measured from the base of the skull to the tip of the tail - and are much smaller. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
08:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Possible that Ali & Ripley (1983)'s value is based on earlier accounts in the JNHBS about Indian roller in India only. I'll try to find out. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
09:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm going to replace the old sources (aside from the historically important ones in taxonomy). With the general sources Aa77zz highlighted above, there's no reason for to use sources this ancient. The FAC reviewers will pick up on that.
LittleJerry (
talk)
20:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Cloud can be at google drive or dropbox or wetransfer or any other company that offers webspace for free. You upload a file + share it via a link so that those who have the link can download it. You can post the link here and remove the file as soon as I let you know that I downloaded it. Let me know if you need an example. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
19:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Not yet. Am not ready to share my personal email address and don't have one at gmail, so will have to register one for that purpose only. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
19:29, 20 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I think I like Cramp's chapter best, as he provides so many details and the sources, many of them published in the JBNHS. Saw Ali & Ripley cited a couple of times. Gimme some time to read it all. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
20:24, 20 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Didn't intend to. But we can or I would like to follow up on some of the sources cited in Cramp's. E.g. his description of "bare parts" on page 782 is copy-pasted from Ali & Ripley (1970), but this description is exactly the same as in Ali's article about the Hyderabad bird survey, published in JBNHS 1938, one of his early articles. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
20:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)reply
I have a few RL issues that are distracting me and feel as if I need some undisturbed time to digest this one. My idea was to digest all the scanned book material first before going to journals. Article still needs a para at end of description on similar species and how it can be distinguished from them. Also I suspect more could be added on habitat. I am sorry have been distracted. I'd do these myself but am a bit tied up for the next 24 hours. Feel free to add otherwise I'll get onto it later.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
20:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Right folks, can anyone see any issues outstanding before GAN. @
BhagyaMani: we need to have consistent referencing. I generally prefer not to use ampersands in the author lists but don't care enough to argue about it - if you really want to use them then all references need to have them. Either way (all refs or none using ampersands) is okay, we just need to pick a format and stick to it.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
02:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks Shyamal. I also found the link to southasiaarchive. Is the reference in the page correct? Or should the Anthropology series be ref'ed differently? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
12:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Have no idea how "Part III" after the volume could be inserted in an appropriate way with our current citation templates.
Shyamal (
talk)
14:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)reply
Ok, up to you. But thought you should be acknowledged too. I went mugger, you might have seen that. And planning to GAN this perhaps by next week. Would you like to join in ? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
12:58, 5 May 2021 (UTC)reply
This is already in good shape; it has a lot of good detail, and is generally well-written. That said, there are some nitpiks. If you'll strike these out as you deal with them, it will help me to know what you've fixed.
The lede should be a summary of the article. Right now, it has no information about the diet or reproductive ecology of these birds. That should be added.
I'd suggest you add the basics of the nest, number of young, etc. Something like: "The female lays 3–5 eggs in a cavity or crevice, which is lined with a thin mat of straw or feathers."
The map in the infobox has two colours, but only one colour is explained in the key.
The map in Fry is tiny (Plate 37 page 98). It doesn't include the shaded area on the
Arabian Peninsula depicted in our range map - although Fry is the cited source. I've looked at other range maps. The shaded area is not included on the map in Cramp (p. 779). The shaded area is depicted as a Non-Breeding" area on the map on the Cornell/HBW webpage
here (subscription required) but not on the
ebird page (also Cornell). It is depicted on the IUCN map as a Non-breeding area
here. The map on
Xeno-Canto does not include it. I've added the IUCN as an additional source for the map on Commons. -
Aa77zz (
talk)
09:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
The iucn assessors apparently neglected the report on breeding birds in the Arabian peninsula, which I had added a while ago to section Conservation: acc. to this report, it IS indeed breeding there, see ref 49. So I suggest that we change the colours in map. Or how should we handle this discrepancy? --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
09:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
On the other hand, two of the iucn rl compilers are also authors of above report, viz Symes & Taylor. Strange though that the report is not listed in the bibliography of this account. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
10:22, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
What discrepancy? The sources agree that the Indian roller breeds in United Arab Emirates and northern Oman - they differ only in the non-breeding area. I cannot see a range map for the Indian roller in Symes et al (ref 49). They mention breeding but that could be in the United Arab Emirates and northern Oman.
Aa77zz (
talk)
10:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
For some birds listed in this appendix, they mentioned individual countries or regions. So I assumed that when referring to Arabian peninsula, they mean not only UAE and Oman, but also Saudi Arabia. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
12:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)reply
There are a few eBird sightings in the shaded area recorded
here
Check the footnote numbers. MOS says they should be in numerical order, but they aren't in several cases.
In the paragraph about the first description of the species, in the sentence "...derived from a drawing by illustrator Joseph Dandridge, who in turn received a drawing...", there should be a "had" before received.
Consider linking some of the potentially less well-known body parts (maybe tail coverts, underwing coverts, primary coverts, lesser coverts, axillaries) with birdgloss entries.
"... with a similar pale blue band across the most lateral five or six flight feathers" You mean distal rather than lateral (i.e. the feathers on the wing that are farthest from the body)
"A scanning electron micrograph of the Indian roller's blue feathers shows a channel-type nanostructure with β-keratin rods and air channels." What does this even mean?!
"Kaarsch calls are made during rolling displays and increase in frequency and volume as it flies towards an intruder." "It" should be replaced by "the bird".
"When perched side by side, rollers make chattering heard as staccato." I think there must be some words missing here, as this sentence makes no sense.
Arg! Sorry about the delay. Too many irons in the fire!
I'm a bit confused by some of the Distribution section. For instance, the sentence "In the early 1970s, it was observed in the marshes and mudflats of Shadegan County in Iran where it was a common winter visitor." suggests that it is no longer found in that country. Is that correct or does this need to be made clearer? And the sentence "It has been recorded as a summer visitor to Jalalabad in northeastern Afghanistan." suggests it's only there in the summer. It would be good if this section clearly identified where the bird breeds, where it's resident and where it winters, if those are different places. It's pretty piecemeal at the moment.
"They patrol their territory by flying at the tree tops or three-stories high and when an intruder is spotted, they are driven away by a fast rolling flight." Is this meant to say that they fly at treetop height? It's not clear at the moment. In the second half of the sentence "an intruder" should be followed by "it is", not "they are".
"It has also been observed perching in trees and shrubs at a height of 3–9 m (10–30 ft) from where it forages for ground insects." As a birder, I think I understand what you mean here, but it's not going to be clear to nonbirders how a bird "forages for ground insects" from 9 metres! Perhaps "It perches in trees and shrubs at a height of 3-9 m (10-30 ft), dropping to the ground when it spots prey"?
"The display of the Indian roller is aerobatic with twists and turns and is attracted by fires." Do fires really cause the bird to make display flights? Or are there two completely unrelated details in this sentence?
It has been observed to follow tractors for disturbed invertebrates "observed following" rather than "observed to follow".
"Crows are driven away from nests and have even been recorded repeatedly divebombing an Egyptian vulture." Right now, this sentence says crows divebomb Egyptian vultures, which I'm sure is not what you mean.
In the sentence "... display to each other with bows, dropped wings, fanned tails..." there should be an "and" before fanned tails.
The Indian roller descends to the ground to capture insects and too a lesser extent amphibians, reptiles, birds, and small mammals. should be "to a lesser extent", not "too a lesser extent".
It is attracted to swarms of winged termites, and as many as 40 birds have been seen to perch on a 70 m (230 ft) stretch of electric wire. Were the 40 birds on the wire because of a swarm of winged termities? That's not clear here. Maybe add "to take advantage of one swarm", or some such?
"As of 2016, the Indian roller is listed as Least Concern on the IUCN Red List..." should be "...listed as a species of least concern" And "least concern" should be lowercase, per WP:MOS.
"Adding its chopped feathers to fodder for cows was believed to increase the latters milk yield, giving them also the Telugu name of pɑːla-pitta or milk bird." Latters should have an apostrophe, and you've switched tenses from singular to plural here "its --> them".
There are two issues that don't appear to have been sorted yet. I'll paste them in again below:
I'm a bit confused by some of the Distribution section. For instance, the sentence "In the early 1970s, it was observed in the marshes and mudflats of Shadegan County in Iran where it was a common winter visitor." suggests that it is no longer found in that country. Is that correct or does this need to be made clearer? And the sentence "It has been recorded as a summer visitor to Jalalabad in northeastern Afghanistan." suggests it's only there in the summer. It would be good if this section clearly identified where the bird breeds, where it's resident and where it winters, if those are different places. It's pretty piecemeal at the moment.
@
MeegsC: Re Shadegan County: I found about a handful of publications about birds in the Shadegan wetlands dating 2010+, but Indian roller is not listed in any of them. So it's not clear whether it is still a winter visitor there. --
BhagyaMani (
talk)
15:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Okay, let's hear what they have to say. I guess I'd suggest adding something like "More recent reports no longer include the roller." or something similar to the sentence about Iran, to make it clear the bird is no longer regularly seen there.
I am not sure that I can embellish without violating OR. The source recalls records from the 1970s and I can imagine that whole area being easier to do birdwatching then than now (well, since the early 1980s actually) so who knows. I am busy with RL chores. Need to sleep and look at records again.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
12:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I think that if the section is tweaked somewhat to indicate broadly where the species is resident, where it winters and where it breeds, with an indication of where the status is uncertain, that will suffice. Right now, I find the very specific locations for Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan a bit odd, given that the article is nowhere near as specific about its occurrence elsewhere. Saying that the last reliable reports of them wintering in Iran date from the 1970s would be perfectly acceptable, I should think.
@
MeegsC: I have rearranged it - order is now general resident/summer visitor/vagrant/historical winter visitor, thus moving from confirmed/abundant to vagrant to historical. I often add specific areas at the borders of a bird's range to be as exact as possible regarding distribution - i.e. no point mentioning anywhere specific from the middle of its range as it occurs all around, but I feel the edges (where known) are important.
Cas Liber (
talk·contribs)
12:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)reply
"The display of the Indian roller is aerobatic with twists and turns and is attracted by fires." Do fires really cause the bird to make display flights? Or are there two completely unrelated details in this sentence?
Happy to give this one its star. Nice work, everybody! If you're thinking of taking this to FA, I'd consider adding informative captions to the pictures (i.e. something other than "Bird in location" or "Bird eating insect" – particularly in the newly added gallery.
MeegsC (
talk)
09:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)reply
If and when this passes FA review, I suggest it be nominated for TFA on 1 November. As Karnataka's state bird, it's only right that it appears on Karnataka's state day. I also plan to improve a few other articles by then - at least
Vidhana Soudha - so that we can have several Karnataka-related entries on 1 November.
Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVIconverse |
fings wot i hav dun16:53, 19 June 2021 (UTC)reply