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This discussion has been moved to the talk/discuss page of the respective template at Template_talk:Anglo-Indian_Wars#.27Indian_freedom_struggle.27 Zuggernaut ( talk) 16:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I propose moving all of the discussions re the contentious template to its talk page. Any objections? Rsloch ( talk) 09:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Few wars or conflicts have such a wide variety of names. There is a reason for this, namely ongoing political sensitivities in certain quarters on both the Indian and British sides. This is an important issue which needs to be understood by a reader to fully understand the Rebellion/Mutiny today, and its legacy. The best place to do that I suggest is right at the start, the introduction to the introduction. Once readers understand from the very start that this is a conflict which still arouses political passions within certain groups on both sides, they will have a better appreciation of the nuances which cannot but help creeping in occasionally to the narrative, whether written by historians of today or of the Victorian era, or indeed manifestations of unconscious bias by Wikipedia editors. I have made an attempt in a new opening sentence to rationalise in a scientific manner the variety of names previously laid out without explanation.( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 16:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC))
I like the section on Nomenclature you referred me to, it is useful. Would you have any objection to making a specific reference to it in the opening sentence such as "For a discussion on the wide variety of Nomenclature, see section below Nomenclature", placed immediately after the list of alternative names? This will allow the reader who is unsurprisingly confused at this early juncture to resolve his queries in a logical sequence. The opening sentence and its large array of names clearly needs clarification, but it could be argued that a first breaching of the topic on page 32 out of 33 is a bit late. The fact that the relevant information is indeed there somewhere is fine, but like all information it needs to be presented in a timely manner to be of maximum use and relevance. I would also like to see the names in the first sentence listed in an order dictated by reference to some stated rationale. I have no problem at all with the title of the article as it is, to make that clear, it is a good compromise between all the options. But I would like to see the alternative names listed in order of frequency of use, with the most commonly used ones listed first. That would be a logical rationale of sorts, better ones may exist. The current order of listing inexplicably shows the name least frequently used internationally, and that most subject to controversy, placed first, i.e. "India's First War of Independence". I suspect that "Indian Mutiny" is a name more frequently used than the latter, yet "Indian Mutiny" is listed in position 3 of alternative names, rather than at position 1. We are agreed that naming is important and controversial, so would you object to adopting the rationale of listing order I have suggested? If not could you suggest an alternative rationale more acceptable to you? ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC))
"The many names are the result of the conflict's continuing importance to India's national sense of identity" - This sounds patronizing. As an Indian, there is no doubt in my mind about the name of the event. Perhaps "the many names are the result of the conflict's continuing importance to Britain national sense of colonial identity" would be a better intro. TheBlueKnight ( talk) 21:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I created a template recently called Template:Anglo-Indian Wars (later renamed to Template:Indian freedom struggle) to link the various events and movements leading to the Indian independence. Specifically I linked various wars such as the First Anglo-Maratha War, Second Anglo-Maratha War, Third Anglo-Maratha War, First Anglo-Sikh War, Second Anglo-Sikh War, Indian independence movement, Indian rebellion of 1857, the four Anglo-Mysore Wars, etc. The template is a mere chronological linkage of events/movements with similar objectives. It looks like:
Preceded by: Second Anglo-Maratha War |
Indo-British conflicts | Succeeded by: First Anglo-Sikh War |
Some users are calling this template non-NPOV/OR. I'm requesting comments to sort the matter out. Relevant discussions are at Talk:Indian_Rebellion_of_1857#.27Indian_freedom_struggle.27 and Template_talk:Anglo-Indian_Wars. Thanks Zuggernaut ( talk) 20:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
"The land was reorganized under the comparatively harsh Zamindari system to facilitate the collection of taxes." The Zamandari system was in fact traditional, created by the Moguls and simply kept on by the British, indeed the "Zamandari" Wiki link immediately confirms this, thus contradicting the statement that it was a British innovation, within its own supporting link!!!
"The economic policies of the East India Company were also resented by the Indians" - this makes it sound as if there was one general point of view in India amongst Indians - there wasn't. If there had been it is doubtful that the British would have held on. Many important local powers in India remained neutral in the conflict, others backed the British. The Sikhs for example were a major help to the British, and played a major role in retaking Delhi. It was definately one point of view at the time, and probably a correct point of view at that time, but to claim that all Indians were generally of that opinion is a massive over simplification and smacks of Indian nationalism. There were many Indians at the time that praised British rule for its internal order, which was a marked contrast to the anarchy and civil war of the first half of the 18th century. Also, Hindus had generally been excluded from the ruling classes by the Moguls. Under the British, in many areas, local Hindu rule had been re-instated where Muslim administrators had once held sway over less than happy Hindus; again, this was not always unpopular. Unfortunately many Indian (nationalist) revisionist historians like to portray a historical united Indian front against imperialism, but the reality was far more complicated. Indeed, so few British troops could never have withstood any united and passionate Indian concensus of opinion.
"It began as a mutiny of native soldiers (sepoys) employed by the British East India Company's army, perceived aainst race based injustices and inequities," sorry this isn't written in proper English, even if "perceived aainst" was turned into "against perceived", it still creates a strong POV - was it "race based" - ?? A big opening claim has to be supported by big sources, but even English was too much of a challenge for the writer, let alone historical verification.
Unfortunately all British Raj related articles in Wikipedia seem to get set upon by Indian nationalists, who make sweeping claims about the "criminal" "racist" British and the valiant Indian fight against imperialism. Well, considering the British soldier was outnumbered in India by about 1 soldier to 2000 Indians - it speaks for itself, the British usually had to tread very carefully in their administration and rely on not insubstantial local support to get things done. But of course, many indians prefer a less complicated jingoistic black/white version of their past, because its easier to live with - unfortunately this Bollywood JAI HIND version of history regularly invades Wikepedia, for example, the Politically Correct revisionist names for articles always win against the names that were used perfectly well for 150-350 years, the "Indian Army" of the Raj period becomes "British Indian Army" - a title by which it was never known, the English names Calcutta, Madras and Bombay have been changed to their Indian equivalents, regardless of the fact Wiki is in English (so is Vienna "Wein" in Wiki? Is Moscow "Moskova"? of course not, but when it comes to India everybody goes all PC and caves in) and of course now we have "Indian Rebellion of 1857" - because "mutiny" implies that the combat was mainly with the former British units (which it was), and "rebellion" implies a general uprising of the masses - which it wasn't; but of course Indian nationalists want us to believe it was, so the name gets changed, and anybody who says its wrong can't see the emperor's new clothes. What is a real laugh, is the sham debate before any name change, when it's a foregone conclusion that the old established name is going to get thrown out. It's like some kind of Soviet show trial.
It's all a bit of joke really, or should I say that my observations are "perceived aainst" injustices.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.62.165 ( talk) 12:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
This is not a Soapbox. TheBlueKnight ( talk) 21:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I have not addedd gujjar stuff particularly. But you are not aware with the history. The first revolution was started from Meerut. And major caste was Gurjar who revolted with other villagers of saharanpur, Muzzafarnagar, Bulandshahr and Meerut. The Gurjar caste was in majority and had three kingdoms namely, Parikshitgarh, Landhora and Dadri. For your kind information all are entered in Government ghazeteirs and british imperial ghazzete. These all stuff are the part of this topic. Without the discussion of Meerut, Gurjar, Muslim Rajputs who fought against the British Army (included Gurkha regiment and Jat regiment), the 1857 Fight for freedom cant be completed.
Kotwal Dhan singh gurjar was first person who lead the revolution in Meerut. The government of india confirmed it from the collectorates and ghazette. The statue is installed in Meerut.
Mr. Knight Please dont delete it as all information with references which i entered in genuine and from recognized sources. Dont talk it as Gujjar stuff. You are trying to revert the truth of history which is hide by persons like you.
Regards ( Gurjeshwar ( talk) 12:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC))
The Role of Gurjars People and soldiers in 1857 Revolt This is the small description which i added on that page, because without that inclusion the real fact can not be come to this world. The indian government and British gazzete tell this story. The revolt which started at Meerut fueled by the Gurjars villagers and policeman. Still Meerut is a majority city of Gurjars. And this is impossible to anyone to revolt without the help of local peoples. Gurjars of Bijnor were fighting under the leadership of Gurjar leaders Kadam Singh and Dulal Singh. In the whole revolt Gurjars were fighting along with the Muslims. Gurjars in Mathura and Agra region also fought against the British and gave them a horrible period. That is why when the revolt ended, the properties of the Gurjars were impounded. Gurjars in Ludhiyana, Firozpur, Gujaranwala, Sialkot, Gujarat, Jalandhar district, Kangada revolt against the British and tried to end the British rule but when the revolt failed, the properties were impounded by the British. Hundreds of villages in district Bulandshahar were ruined by the Britishers but Gujjars fought with full strength. Not only had the Britishers declared Gujjars as criminal tribe by defining Criminal Tribes Act. However, in the freedom struggle of India, Gujjars were working as the main leaders of the Non Cooperation Movement of Mahatma Gandhi in the country. History states that there were freedom fighters in each and every single Gujjar village of the country.
So this should be included in this article. Without Gurjars/Gujjars The revolt cant be planned and implemented. Regards ( Gurjeshwar ( talk) 03:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC))
(od) Well, this is actually quite interesting. The exact quote about the plundering and looting is in the context of Gujar villagers taking advantage of the chaos following the mutiny to plunder at will (so it is incorrect to say that those actions were directed at the foreign rulers). However, Stokes goes on to make a fairly good case that the vast majority of Gujars in Meerut, Bulandshahr, Bijnor and in the Meerut-Delhi corridor were taking action against the British government. I'm rewriting the section a bit based on this book.-- RegentsPark ( talk) 22:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The Sepoy mutiny, was as much about sepoys as Bombay Duck, is a bird or Jellyfish a fish. Sepoy historically and contemporary is a rank in the British and Indian Army, it means an infantry private. With sepoy all over the place, what does this article suggest? So I have replaced inaccurate word with native soldier. Of course usage like Sepoy rebellion/mutiny and historical usage of the term or usage in book titles etc. is maintained. Mangal Pandey was hanged on 8 April, 1857, his Jamadar or lieutenant too was hanged on 22 April. So ab initio this mutiny was not about infantry privates. Does this article with sepoy all over the place mean to convey that the Havildars, Jamadars or Subedars or the Sowars and others in the cavalry, and then the golandaz and others in the artillery and their superiors just looked and cheered as the sepoys or the infantry privates fought? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 10:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Linking in the other sepoy discussion.-- RegentsPark ( talk) 14:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 21:00, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
The above are not represented in the article. Kindly discuss and comment so that the necessary changes can be incorporated. Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 13:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
“ | In the triumphal British writings on the rebellion and its suppression, the heroes and villains are depicted from the point of view of the victors, and the same perception is reflected in the pictorial representation of what happened. Is there any way we can reverse the gaze? What was the Indian perception of what happened in 1857?
Many sketches and paintings of 1857 from British hands were reproduced by the British printing press in journals and albums and these have been preserved with care in museums and archives, including those Indian taxpayers paid for. While there is a multitude of such pictures, there is none by Indians of those times, none identified as authentically contemporary. The Indian voice of those times can be heard only in the surviving texts of proclamations and letters and orders and the like, as well as rare first person narratives in the form of memoirs and depositions at trials of the rebels. That alone can help us overcome the silence of the defeated. [6] |
” |
Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 04:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
If this is called the First War of Independence, when was the second? The template box did not help as it led me round the houses, up to the Indian Independence Movement. If this is called the first then there should be clearer clarification of when the second was, shouldn't it?
The term was first used by Veer Savarkar, perhaps in anticipation of another armedpopular uprising against the British. It never came as the British were thrown out of India by a variety of factors including WW-2, popularity of INA, Indian freedom struggle of the Congress and the Bombay Naval Mutiny - so the need for a Second did not arise. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
TheBlueKnight (
talk •
contribs)
20:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello
I recently came across this article. I object to the naming of the article. It is very obvious that the "Revolt of 1857" and "Sepoy Mutiny" or "Rebellion blah blah" are names given by the British imperialists who wished to reduce the significance of this great war.
It is akin to calling the American War of Independence as the "American Rebellion".
Kindly change it to the "First war of Independence" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.174.160.145 ( talk) 17:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Rsloch ( talk) 14:16, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
The Revolt section, and its subs, seems to be a real mess with things out of order. Before I reorder it all does anyone object? Rsloch ( talk) 14:14, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
if anyone feels like firming up the information, amitabha mukerjee excerpts kaye and malleson to the effect of showing that beef greased cartridges were indeed issued:
Clearly, the answer to the q. of whether the cartridges used beef or pork tallow, is a resounding yes. A related question is whether the native troops had been issued such bullets. On the answer is a more qualified yes. During an early test, several native groups had actually been issued beef- greased cartridges, first during a test in 1853, when they kept it in their pouch along with other belongings, and second, from late 1856, during the training of of several hundred native soldiers at Meerut, Ambala and other rifle training centers. Such soldiers who were trained, at least in Meerut, were issued what the authorities believed to be "mutton fat" cartridges. However, the order that these should be made of mutton was not issued until January 1857 and may have taken longer to implement. At the time of the training, there is no evidence that mutton fat was being procured for manufacturing cartridges; The only tallow that had been indented earlier is beef fat. [8]
Also see: http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/amit/books/palmer-1966-mutiny-outbreak-at.html
cheers 98.149.143.251 ( talk) 20:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Hey Wikiguys,
I think that the sentence "Other regions of Company controlled India—Bengal province, the Bombay Presidency, and the Madras Presidency—remained largely calm." doesn't fit exactly, because Sepoys of the Bengal Presidency Army began the rebellion. They just didn't turn against Calcutta and kept around Delhi.
Greetings!
I wonder if those beef or mutton greased cartridges were issued in other Presidencies as well. May be they weren't issued in those Presidencies & hence they remained calm & quite. Religions & religious dos & don'ts have been driving forces in India. Tushar Doshi ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC).
There isn't really an introduction on this page. It should begin with a broad description / definition of the concept in its entirety, not launch straight into the individual events. MijinLaw ( talk) 10:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Much of the 'Reaction in Britain' is from V. Sundaram's article British Colonial Prejudiced Press Coverage of the First War of Indian Independence which can be found here. Thus I have removed it. Rsloch ( talk) 00:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Can we have a page number for this source. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:22, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
why do not consider rao tularam, rewari's contribution in 1857 revolt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.82.86.37 ( talk) 13:40, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
My apologies if this has been covered before - there are a lot of archived pages and no search function. Should we not be making it more clear that this image is generally considered to be a staged photograph and that the bones etc were not in fact present in such great numbers? The image description at Commons does explain that there is a difference of opinion regarding its veracity but, tbh, a quick GBooks search appears to show that the weight is very much on the "staged" side of things. - Sitush ( talk) 11:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:This sketch of Lucknow's Alam Bagh was made by Lt CH Mecham on 25 December 1857 while fierce fighting raged on. In a note at the bottom of the sketch, the artist wishes "my future readers many happy returns of this festive season"..jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012
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To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:This sketch of Lucknow's Alam Bagh was made by Lt CH Mecham on 25 December 1857 while fierce fighting raged on. In a note at the bottom of the sketch, the artist wishes "my future readers many happy returns of this festive season"..jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 14:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC) |
britiish east india company — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.113.87 ( talk) 10:54, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Search to Liabrary TKMM COLLEGE NANGIARKULANGARA!
By
JUSTIN(2010) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
116.68.113.87 (
talk)
10:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Why they don't Let the Muslim use the cow fat and the Hindist the pig fat?Just exchange? Britain had been in India for quite a long time, they should know their custom. Can anyone tell me why? suppose 1: someone incited a revolution against Britain 2: Britain want to take over it from EIC 3: Britain want to suppress the potencial enemy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laoshuxsm ( talk • contribs) 02:07, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Why has a blog been re-instated as a see also? Slatersteven ( talk) 16:56, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
This section contains a characteristic excerpt from a letter written by Edward Vibart (then 19 years old) to his uncle. The original text was taken from the introduction to William Dalrymple's book, The Last Moghul. Later on in the text he gives a fuller version of the letter, commenting that it "oscillated between bloody bravado and flashes of awareness at the horrors he was committing." I have two concerns:
Here's the fuller text:
Compare this with the abbreviated version previously used:
I was left with the feeling after reading Dalrymple's excellent book that much of the present article could do with revision - he manages what looks to me in 2013 like a good neutral point of view - but I don't think Dalrymple would appreciate his book being mined quite so extensively. Thomas Peardew ( talk) 07:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Do we have any facts on the total number of casualties and losses for all sides? We could then put it in a box at the top of the page like they do with the articles on other wars.-- Lord Don-Jam ( talk) 16:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
WP:MOS prohibits linking (or any boldfacing) in subtitles. This should be observed here, as well. If you wish to change the rule, please state the reasons here and also discuss on the policy page. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 18:01, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
An editor has persisted in gratuitously inserting Gurjars in a subtitle. The article is otherwise structured by places, not tribes. To attribute specific places to a tribe seems WP:UNDUE and appears to violate the WP:KISS rule. Student7 ( talk) 18:01, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
(copies from Student7's discussion page) I've undone your latest edits on the Rebellion page as it looks as if you have misunderstood where the material is in the article. I understand your motives, and agree with them, but I don't think it worked in this case. 31.185.245.6 ( talk) 10:27, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Diff of disputed edit.
Isn't the problem easily remedied by changing native (which does have a colonialist ring to it) to Indian?
Abecedare (
talk)
19:51, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
One historian here feels that names of historians should not be mentioned, only their ideas. That violates Wiki rules when a quotation is involved. See WP:PLAGIARISM which states: In addition to an inline citation, in-text attribution is usually required when quoting or closely paraphrasing source material (for example: "John Smith wrote that the building looked spectacular," or "According to Smith (2012) ..."). The Manual of Style requires in-text attribution when quoting a full sentence or more. Naming the author in the text allows the reader to see that it relies heavily on someone else's ideas, without having to search in the footnote. Rjensen ( talk) 11:15, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
I have removed the distorted account of Bayly's work on the rebellion. The term swadeshi did not exist until the early 1900s. Bayly, in fact, says something different in that article:
Nevertheless, in 1857 most Irishmen still seem to have identified with British rule in India because of the threat the Rebellion posed to overseas European communities. This was because the Irish were not only the victims of the imperial state, but also some its greatest beneficiaries, a position which hardly changed through to the 1930s. These benefits flowed both to Protestants and to Catholics, both to North and to South, although unevenly. I will briefly describe Ireland's imperialist history as a background to the full emergence of Irish and Indian nationalism, and their mutual acknowledgement, in the latter part of the nineteenth century.
Please don't send students down the wrong path and put words in Bayly's mouth. I have removed that paragraph. Again, it is best not to edit this article on the fly by adding in helter-skelter fashion the source you manage to find at that moment. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:14, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
I have revised the lead, made it more balanced and comprehensive. Some reliably sourced text had been removed. Other unreliably-sourced text had been added. In the coming days, I'll update the citations in the lead. Long-term watchers of the page may want to keep a sharper eye out for unhelpful edits during that duration. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 08:05, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
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As it is already 10 May in India, the 160th anniversary of the Indian Rebellion of 1857, I thought I'd post an etching and accompanying story about the resort town of Nynee Tal (today Nainital) from August 15, 1857, which I found in the loft. I have added it to the article, and am reproducing it here. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
If this mutiny was pro-'India' (which was never there till 1947), then all the others who supported the British rule including the majority people of this geographical area (Sikhs, southerners, and even the Gurkhas) should be anti-nationals. What kind of an idiotic history writing is this? If NCERT textbooks are to be copied into Wikipedia, then what kind of an encyclopedia is this?
The other mistake in this article wording would be the use of the word 'European' when actually the word 'British' would have been more appropriate. The words 'Europe' and 'British' are understand as antonyms in many locations in history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.21.213 ( talk) 10:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
The contention about the term 'India' is not understandable! India the nation and India the subcontinent are different. The explanation given seems to be some nonsense with no connection to the query.
As to the argument about the word, 'European', of employees of the Company being from non-English origin: The Company is generally and intelligently understood as British. If the nationality of the employees are being taken into account, then the Company should be mentioned as 'Indian Subcontinent' company or even as 'Indian' company. For most of its employees were from the subcontinent. However, it would be most unintelligent manner to define a company by employee-nationality.
As to the Irish element and such talk, Ireland was fully a part of Britain, in the same manner the areas of current-day Pakistan and Bangladesh were part of Indian subcontinent. Nowhere in the history of British-India, does one identify the people from those places as Pakistanis and Banglaeshies. Even though in the case of British-India, it would have been more apt to mention each population by their traditional name, such Tamils, Travancoreans, Bengalies, Mugals, Kashnmiris, Malabaris, Mysorians, Marathas etc. instead mentioning them all as 'Indians' whenever anyone of them stand against the Company.
It is seen in the article that anyone who stood against the Company rule was 'Indian' and anyone who stood with the Company is either one of the mentioned groups or European!
It has been noted that elsewhere on Wikipedia, even Scots are not mentioned as British, but as Scots. As if Scotland is a different nation. If that be case, who is a British? If the word British is to mean only people from England, it might be a terrific use of national identification by Wikipedia.
As to the rebellion, it was a small mutiny that took place under the Company 'raj'. How anyone who knows anything about the history of the subcontinent will get false beliefs is not understood, other than that Indian-Wikipedia is creating false definitions to create confusions. In this article, the minor group of rioters are mentioned as 'Indians' while the huge content of populations like the Sikhs, Pattans, Madras, and many independent kingdoms like Travancore etc. who literally stood on the company's side, are mentioned by their traditional names. It would be more correct to mention the rioters and mutineers by the minor group identification, instead of placing them on the other huge number of populations who lived and live in the subcontinent.
Is there something wrong with the common administrators of Indian pages on Wikipedia. These pages have a smell of an Indian government propaganda page.
SIGNED -- 117.201.246.77 ( talk) 09:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
No,you stupid,republic of India was founded in 1947,not India,learn history.07:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC) Ovsek ( talk)
Keep your 'you stupid' to your self. If this is the way you want to teach history, keep that for your own children. There was no 'India' known to any native person inside the Indian peninsula, before the formation of British-India. It would be quite difficult to come across such claims of being an 'Indian' in any of the writings of old. Moreover, 650 small time kinddom,and at at least a few thousand kings. Most of them could not travel even 10 kms beyond their territory. Then what 'India' are you talking of. Keep your NCERT Text for Indian public exams. However, they do not suit the inside of an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.21.213 ( talk) 10:15, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Use of the term 'Indians' is also not acceptable. It seems to suggest that all people who lived in the Indian peninsula were 'Indians', and that all these 'Indians' were supportive of the rioters. It is not true. Only a very insignificant percentage of the population had any support for this mutiny, led by low rank soldiers of the East India Company army in Bengal. Even in this army, many did not support. Most civilians did not support, other than the aristocracy that had lost its power. Most parts of peninsula did not supp A mutiny has ro ort this rioting. Sot it is an unreasonable thing to use the term 'Indians' for the rioters. It simply adds everyone to a group, to which most did not belong. If the rioters are Indians, then what are the others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.253.97 ( talk) 11:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Sepoy mutiny was just a minor military mutiny. However, the Englishmen who came to this geographical area was overwhelmed by the size of the place to imagine that it was a revolt that was taking place all over the geographical area. Truth is that most of the population stood by the British rulers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.16.154 ( talk) 15:29, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Remove this p please. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:46, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I find the naming of this article offensive and racist. A mutiny has to be against your own government. Since the british were a foreign power in India, the only way to describe the events of 1857 is a war of independence. Why is it racist? Because a mutiny assumes an event where people were unhappy with their own government, and were revolting against one aspect of governance. Whereas in 1857 we were trying to throw of british enslavement of India. Calling it a mutiny is a white European perspective, that belittles the event, and the people who fought and died for that Independence. It would be like calling the American Revolution the American Mutiny. it belittles the event. Dark knight212 ( talk) 02:45, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Very true. It's unfair and racist to call it mutiny or rebellion. It was resistance against foreign invaders. So it was war of independence and not rebellion. Saimashafait ( talk) 11:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Hoe can causality figures get outdated? The lowest figure in 100,000 and is reliably sourced Modern sources do not trump this, they just raised the upper limit. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
A couple more points, please will edds not misrepresents sources. Secondly my copy of Dalrymple does not give a figure for total dead on pages 4 or 5. Slatersteven ( talk) 10:00, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
The article currently states as a fact: "The war and its aftermath resulted in the deaths of at least 800,000 people". This looks to me like the contributor who picked that number simply went for the highest estimate that could be found. Is there a better way of doing this? We all love big numbers, but could a more skeptical approach, such as "estimates range between 50,000 and 1,000,000" be employed, with some critical commentary on the assumptions made in arriving at the varying numbers? (E.g., are the larger numbers arrived at by adding in the deaths resultant from cholera epidemics that swept India afterward?) Maybe
Lewis F. Richardson's research on casualty figures in major armed conflicts (Statistics of Deadly Quarrels), flawed and imperfect though it is, could be drawn on as a source here? As I recall, Richardson made an effort to come up with consensus numbers, although his bias was toward picking numbers that would fit on a statistical curve he was trying/hoping to find in the data. Since Richardson's main interest was in determining the size/scale of each of the hundreds of conflicts he looked at (Richardson was a meteorologist and saw war as something like a hurricane, and wanted to come up with a logarithmic scale for the intensity of conflicts); and since the key metric he used was the number of casualties/deaths, he would have had a keen interest in determining whether the Sepoy Mutiny was/was not on the same scale as the American Civil War and the Tai-Ping Rebellion, which occurred around the same time. Not saying Richardson is always right--not even close, I would venture--but his figures, whatever they are (I have not checked) might offer a starting point.
65.88.88.127 (
talk)
20:38, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 |
This discussion has been moved to the talk/discuss page of the respective template at Template_talk:Anglo-Indian_Wars#.27Indian_freedom_struggle.27 Zuggernaut ( talk) 16:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I propose moving all of the discussions re the contentious template to its talk page. Any objections? Rsloch ( talk) 09:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Few wars or conflicts have such a wide variety of names. There is a reason for this, namely ongoing political sensitivities in certain quarters on both the Indian and British sides. This is an important issue which needs to be understood by a reader to fully understand the Rebellion/Mutiny today, and its legacy. The best place to do that I suggest is right at the start, the introduction to the introduction. Once readers understand from the very start that this is a conflict which still arouses political passions within certain groups on both sides, they will have a better appreciation of the nuances which cannot but help creeping in occasionally to the narrative, whether written by historians of today or of the Victorian era, or indeed manifestations of unconscious bias by Wikipedia editors. I have made an attempt in a new opening sentence to rationalise in a scientific manner the variety of names previously laid out without explanation.( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 16:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC))
I like the section on Nomenclature you referred me to, it is useful. Would you have any objection to making a specific reference to it in the opening sentence such as "For a discussion on the wide variety of Nomenclature, see section below Nomenclature", placed immediately after the list of alternative names? This will allow the reader who is unsurprisingly confused at this early juncture to resolve his queries in a logical sequence. The opening sentence and its large array of names clearly needs clarification, but it could be argued that a first breaching of the topic on page 32 out of 33 is a bit late. The fact that the relevant information is indeed there somewhere is fine, but like all information it needs to be presented in a timely manner to be of maximum use and relevance. I would also like to see the names in the first sentence listed in an order dictated by reference to some stated rationale. I have no problem at all with the title of the article as it is, to make that clear, it is a good compromise between all the options. But I would like to see the alternative names listed in order of frequency of use, with the most commonly used ones listed first. That would be a logical rationale of sorts, better ones may exist. The current order of listing inexplicably shows the name least frequently used internationally, and that most subject to controversy, placed first, i.e. "India's First War of Independence". I suspect that "Indian Mutiny" is a name more frequently used than the latter, yet "Indian Mutiny" is listed in position 3 of alternative names, rather than at position 1. We are agreed that naming is important and controversial, so would you object to adopting the rationale of listing order I have suggested? If not could you suggest an alternative rationale more acceptable to you? ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC))
"The many names are the result of the conflict's continuing importance to India's national sense of identity" - This sounds patronizing. As an Indian, there is no doubt in my mind about the name of the event. Perhaps "the many names are the result of the conflict's continuing importance to Britain national sense of colonial identity" would be a better intro. TheBlueKnight ( talk) 21:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I created a template recently called Template:Anglo-Indian Wars (later renamed to Template:Indian freedom struggle) to link the various events and movements leading to the Indian independence. Specifically I linked various wars such as the First Anglo-Maratha War, Second Anglo-Maratha War, Third Anglo-Maratha War, First Anglo-Sikh War, Second Anglo-Sikh War, Indian independence movement, Indian rebellion of 1857, the four Anglo-Mysore Wars, etc. The template is a mere chronological linkage of events/movements with similar objectives. It looks like:
Preceded by: Second Anglo-Maratha War |
Indo-British conflicts | Succeeded by: First Anglo-Sikh War |
Some users are calling this template non-NPOV/OR. I'm requesting comments to sort the matter out. Relevant discussions are at Talk:Indian_Rebellion_of_1857#.27Indian_freedom_struggle.27 and Template_talk:Anglo-Indian_Wars. Thanks Zuggernaut ( talk) 20:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
"The land was reorganized under the comparatively harsh Zamindari system to facilitate the collection of taxes." The Zamandari system was in fact traditional, created by the Moguls and simply kept on by the British, indeed the "Zamandari" Wiki link immediately confirms this, thus contradicting the statement that it was a British innovation, within its own supporting link!!!
"The economic policies of the East India Company were also resented by the Indians" - this makes it sound as if there was one general point of view in India amongst Indians - there wasn't. If there had been it is doubtful that the British would have held on. Many important local powers in India remained neutral in the conflict, others backed the British. The Sikhs for example were a major help to the British, and played a major role in retaking Delhi. It was definately one point of view at the time, and probably a correct point of view at that time, but to claim that all Indians were generally of that opinion is a massive over simplification and smacks of Indian nationalism. There were many Indians at the time that praised British rule for its internal order, which was a marked contrast to the anarchy and civil war of the first half of the 18th century. Also, Hindus had generally been excluded from the ruling classes by the Moguls. Under the British, in many areas, local Hindu rule had been re-instated where Muslim administrators had once held sway over less than happy Hindus; again, this was not always unpopular. Unfortunately many Indian (nationalist) revisionist historians like to portray a historical united Indian front against imperialism, but the reality was far more complicated. Indeed, so few British troops could never have withstood any united and passionate Indian concensus of opinion.
"It began as a mutiny of native soldiers (sepoys) employed by the British East India Company's army, perceived aainst race based injustices and inequities," sorry this isn't written in proper English, even if "perceived aainst" was turned into "against perceived", it still creates a strong POV - was it "race based" - ?? A big opening claim has to be supported by big sources, but even English was too much of a challenge for the writer, let alone historical verification.
Unfortunately all British Raj related articles in Wikipedia seem to get set upon by Indian nationalists, who make sweeping claims about the "criminal" "racist" British and the valiant Indian fight against imperialism. Well, considering the British soldier was outnumbered in India by about 1 soldier to 2000 Indians - it speaks for itself, the British usually had to tread very carefully in their administration and rely on not insubstantial local support to get things done. But of course, many indians prefer a less complicated jingoistic black/white version of their past, because its easier to live with - unfortunately this Bollywood JAI HIND version of history regularly invades Wikepedia, for example, the Politically Correct revisionist names for articles always win against the names that were used perfectly well for 150-350 years, the "Indian Army" of the Raj period becomes "British Indian Army" - a title by which it was never known, the English names Calcutta, Madras and Bombay have been changed to their Indian equivalents, regardless of the fact Wiki is in English (so is Vienna "Wein" in Wiki? Is Moscow "Moskova"? of course not, but when it comes to India everybody goes all PC and caves in) and of course now we have "Indian Rebellion of 1857" - because "mutiny" implies that the combat was mainly with the former British units (which it was), and "rebellion" implies a general uprising of the masses - which it wasn't; but of course Indian nationalists want us to believe it was, so the name gets changed, and anybody who says its wrong can't see the emperor's new clothes. What is a real laugh, is the sham debate before any name change, when it's a foregone conclusion that the old established name is going to get thrown out. It's like some kind of Soviet show trial.
It's all a bit of joke really, or should I say that my observations are "perceived aainst" injustices.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.62.165 ( talk) 12:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
This is not a Soapbox. TheBlueKnight ( talk) 21:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I have not addedd gujjar stuff particularly. But you are not aware with the history. The first revolution was started from Meerut. And major caste was Gurjar who revolted with other villagers of saharanpur, Muzzafarnagar, Bulandshahr and Meerut. The Gurjar caste was in majority and had three kingdoms namely, Parikshitgarh, Landhora and Dadri. For your kind information all are entered in Government ghazeteirs and british imperial ghazzete. These all stuff are the part of this topic. Without the discussion of Meerut, Gurjar, Muslim Rajputs who fought against the British Army (included Gurkha regiment and Jat regiment), the 1857 Fight for freedom cant be completed.
Kotwal Dhan singh gurjar was first person who lead the revolution in Meerut. The government of india confirmed it from the collectorates and ghazette. The statue is installed in Meerut.
Mr. Knight Please dont delete it as all information with references which i entered in genuine and from recognized sources. Dont talk it as Gujjar stuff. You are trying to revert the truth of history which is hide by persons like you.
Regards ( Gurjeshwar ( talk) 12:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC))
The Role of Gurjars People and soldiers in 1857 Revolt This is the small description which i added on that page, because without that inclusion the real fact can not be come to this world. The indian government and British gazzete tell this story. The revolt which started at Meerut fueled by the Gurjars villagers and policeman. Still Meerut is a majority city of Gurjars. And this is impossible to anyone to revolt without the help of local peoples. Gurjars of Bijnor were fighting under the leadership of Gurjar leaders Kadam Singh and Dulal Singh. In the whole revolt Gurjars were fighting along with the Muslims. Gurjars in Mathura and Agra region also fought against the British and gave them a horrible period. That is why when the revolt ended, the properties of the Gurjars were impounded. Gurjars in Ludhiyana, Firozpur, Gujaranwala, Sialkot, Gujarat, Jalandhar district, Kangada revolt against the British and tried to end the British rule but when the revolt failed, the properties were impounded by the British. Hundreds of villages in district Bulandshahar were ruined by the Britishers but Gujjars fought with full strength. Not only had the Britishers declared Gujjars as criminal tribe by defining Criminal Tribes Act. However, in the freedom struggle of India, Gujjars were working as the main leaders of the Non Cooperation Movement of Mahatma Gandhi in the country. History states that there were freedom fighters in each and every single Gujjar village of the country.
So this should be included in this article. Without Gurjars/Gujjars The revolt cant be planned and implemented. Regards ( Gurjeshwar ( talk) 03:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC))
(od) Well, this is actually quite interesting. The exact quote about the plundering and looting is in the context of Gujar villagers taking advantage of the chaos following the mutiny to plunder at will (so it is incorrect to say that those actions were directed at the foreign rulers). However, Stokes goes on to make a fairly good case that the vast majority of Gujars in Meerut, Bulandshahr, Bijnor and in the Meerut-Delhi corridor were taking action against the British government. I'm rewriting the section a bit based on this book.-- RegentsPark ( talk) 22:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The Sepoy mutiny, was as much about sepoys as Bombay Duck, is a bird or Jellyfish a fish. Sepoy historically and contemporary is a rank in the British and Indian Army, it means an infantry private. With sepoy all over the place, what does this article suggest? So I have replaced inaccurate word with native soldier. Of course usage like Sepoy rebellion/mutiny and historical usage of the term or usage in book titles etc. is maintained. Mangal Pandey was hanged on 8 April, 1857, his Jamadar or lieutenant too was hanged on 22 April. So ab initio this mutiny was not about infantry privates. Does this article with sepoy all over the place mean to convey that the Havildars, Jamadars or Subedars or the Sowars and others in the cavalry, and then the golandaz and others in the artillery and their superiors just looked and cheered as the sepoys or the infantry privates fought? Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 10:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Linking in the other sepoy discussion.-- RegentsPark ( talk) 14:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 21:00, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
The above are not represented in the article. Kindly discuss and comment so that the necessary changes can be incorporated. Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 13:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
“ | In the triumphal British writings on the rebellion and its suppression, the heroes and villains are depicted from the point of view of the victors, and the same perception is reflected in the pictorial representation of what happened. Is there any way we can reverse the gaze? What was the Indian perception of what happened in 1857?
Many sketches and paintings of 1857 from British hands were reproduced by the British printing press in journals and albums and these have been preserved with care in museums and archives, including those Indian taxpayers paid for. While there is a multitude of such pictures, there is none by Indians of those times, none identified as authentically contemporary. The Indian voice of those times can be heard only in the surviving texts of proclamations and letters and orders and the like, as well as rare first person narratives in the form of memoirs and depositions at trials of the rebels. That alone can help us overcome the silence of the defeated. [6] |
” |
Yogesh Khandke ( talk) 04:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
If this is called the First War of Independence, when was the second? The template box did not help as it led me round the houses, up to the Indian Independence Movement. If this is called the first then there should be clearer clarification of when the second was, shouldn't it?
The term was first used by Veer Savarkar, perhaps in anticipation of another armedpopular uprising against the British. It never came as the British were thrown out of India by a variety of factors including WW-2, popularity of INA, Indian freedom struggle of the Congress and the Bombay Naval Mutiny - so the need for a Second did not arise. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
TheBlueKnight (
talk •
contribs)
20:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello
I recently came across this article. I object to the naming of the article. It is very obvious that the "Revolt of 1857" and "Sepoy Mutiny" or "Rebellion blah blah" are names given by the British imperialists who wished to reduce the significance of this great war.
It is akin to calling the American War of Independence as the "American Rebellion".
Kindly change it to the "First war of Independence" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.174.160.145 ( talk) 17:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Rsloch ( talk) 14:16, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
The Revolt section, and its subs, seems to be a real mess with things out of order. Before I reorder it all does anyone object? Rsloch ( talk) 14:14, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
if anyone feels like firming up the information, amitabha mukerjee excerpts kaye and malleson to the effect of showing that beef greased cartridges were indeed issued:
Clearly, the answer to the q. of whether the cartridges used beef or pork tallow, is a resounding yes. A related question is whether the native troops had been issued such bullets. On the answer is a more qualified yes. During an early test, several native groups had actually been issued beef- greased cartridges, first during a test in 1853, when they kept it in their pouch along with other belongings, and second, from late 1856, during the training of of several hundred native soldiers at Meerut, Ambala and other rifle training centers. Such soldiers who were trained, at least in Meerut, were issued what the authorities believed to be "mutton fat" cartridges. However, the order that these should be made of mutton was not issued until January 1857 and may have taken longer to implement. At the time of the training, there is no evidence that mutton fat was being procured for manufacturing cartridges; The only tallow that had been indented earlier is beef fat. [8]
Also see: http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/amit/books/palmer-1966-mutiny-outbreak-at.html
cheers 98.149.143.251 ( talk) 20:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Hey Wikiguys,
I think that the sentence "Other regions of Company controlled India—Bengal province, the Bombay Presidency, and the Madras Presidency—remained largely calm." doesn't fit exactly, because Sepoys of the Bengal Presidency Army began the rebellion. They just didn't turn against Calcutta and kept around Delhi.
Greetings!
I wonder if those beef or mutton greased cartridges were issued in other Presidencies as well. May be they weren't issued in those Presidencies & hence they remained calm & quite. Religions & religious dos & don'ts have been driving forces in India. Tushar Doshi ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC).
There isn't really an introduction on this page. It should begin with a broad description / definition of the concept in its entirety, not launch straight into the individual events. MijinLaw ( talk) 10:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Much of the 'Reaction in Britain' is from V. Sundaram's article British Colonial Prejudiced Press Coverage of the First War of Indian Independence which can be found here. Thus I have removed it. Rsloch ( talk) 00:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Can we have a page number for this source. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:22, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
why do not consider rao tularam, rewari's contribution in 1857 revolt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.82.86.37 ( talk) 13:40, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
My apologies if this has been covered before - there are a lot of archived pages and no search function. Should we not be making it more clear that this image is generally considered to be a staged photograph and that the bones etc were not in fact present in such great numbers? The image description at Commons does explain that there is a difference of opinion regarding its veracity but, tbh, a quick GBooks search appears to show that the weight is very much on the "staged" side of things. - Sitush ( talk) 11:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:This sketch of Lucknow's Alam Bagh was made by Lt CH Mecham on 25 December 1857 while fierce fighting raged on. In a note at the bottom of the sketch, the artist wishes "my future readers many happy returns of this festive season"..jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:This sketch of Lucknow's Alam Bagh was made by Lt CH Mecham on 25 December 1857 while fierce fighting raged on. In a note at the bottom of the sketch, the artist wishes "my future readers many happy returns of this festive season"..jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 14:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC) |
britiish east india company — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.113.87 ( talk) 10:54, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Search to Liabrary TKMM COLLEGE NANGIARKULANGARA!
By
JUSTIN(2010) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
116.68.113.87 (
talk)
10:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Why they don't Let the Muslim use the cow fat and the Hindist the pig fat?Just exchange? Britain had been in India for quite a long time, they should know their custom. Can anyone tell me why? suppose 1: someone incited a revolution against Britain 2: Britain want to take over it from EIC 3: Britain want to suppress the potencial enemy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laoshuxsm ( talk • contribs) 02:07, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Why has a blog been re-instated as a see also? Slatersteven ( talk) 16:56, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
This section contains a characteristic excerpt from a letter written by Edward Vibart (then 19 years old) to his uncle. The original text was taken from the introduction to William Dalrymple's book, The Last Moghul. Later on in the text he gives a fuller version of the letter, commenting that it "oscillated between bloody bravado and flashes of awareness at the horrors he was committing." I have two concerns:
Here's the fuller text:
Compare this with the abbreviated version previously used:
I was left with the feeling after reading Dalrymple's excellent book that much of the present article could do with revision - he manages what looks to me in 2013 like a good neutral point of view - but I don't think Dalrymple would appreciate his book being mined quite so extensively. Thomas Peardew ( talk) 07:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Do we have any facts on the total number of casualties and losses for all sides? We could then put it in a box at the top of the page like they do with the articles on other wars.-- Lord Don-Jam ( talk) 16:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
WP:MOS prohibits linking (or any boldfacing) in subtitles. This should be observed here, as well. If you wish to change the rule, please state the reasons here and also discuss on the policy page. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 18:01, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
An editor has persisted in gratuitously inserting Gurjars in a subtitle. The article is otherwise structured by places, not tribes. To attribute specific places to a tribe seems WP:UNDUE and appears to violate the WP:KISS rule. Student7 ( talk) 18:01, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
(copies from Student7's discussion page) I've undone your latest edits on the Rebellion page as it looks as if you have misunderstood where the material is in the article. I understand your motives, and agree with them, but I don't think it worked in this case. 31.185.245.6 ( talk) 10:27, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Diff of disputed edit.
Isn't the problem easily remedied by changing native (which does have a colonialist ring to it) to Indian?
Abecedare (
talk)
19:51, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
One historian here feels that names of historians should not be mentioned, only their ideas. That violates Wiki rules when a quotation is involved. See WP:PLAGIARISM which states: In addition to an inline citation, in-text attribution is usually required when quoting or closely paraphrasing source material (for example: "John Smith wrote that the building looked spectacular," or "According to Smith (2012) ..."). The Manual of Style requires in-text attribution when quoting a full sentence or more. Naming the author in the text allows the reader to see that it relies heavily on someone else's ideas, without having to search in the footnote. Rjensen ( talk) 11:15, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
I have removed the distorted account of Bayly's work on the rebellion. The term swadeshi did not exist until the early 1900s. Bayly, in fact, says something different in that article:
Nevertheless, in 1857 most Irishmen still seem to have identified with British rule in India because of the threat the Rebellion posed to overseas European communities. This was because the Irish were not only the victims of the imperial state, but also some its greatest beneficiaries, a position which hardly changed through to the 1930s. These benefits flowed both to Protestants and to Catholics, both to North and to South, although unevenly. I will briefly describe Ireland's imperialist history as a background to the full emergence of Irish and Indian nationalism, and their mutual acknowledgement, in the latter part of the nineteenth century.
Please don't send students down the wrong path and put words in Bayly's mouth. I have removed that paragraph. Again, it is best not to edit this article on the fly by adding in helter-skelter fashion the source you manage to find at that moment. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:14, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
I have revised the lead, made it more balanced and comprehensive. Some reliably sourced text had been removed. Other unreliably-sourced text had been added. In the coming days, I'll update the citations in the lead. Long-term watchers of the page may want to keep a sharper eye out for unhelpful edits during that duration. Best regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 08:05, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
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As it is already 10 May in India, the 160th anniversary of the Indian Rebellion of 1857, I thought I'd post an etching and accompanying story about the resort town of Nynee Tal (today Nainital) from August 15, 1857, which I found in the loft. I have added it to the article, and am reproducing it here. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
If this mutiny was pro-'India' (which was never there till 1947), then all the others who supported the British rule including the majority people of this geographical area (Sikhs, southerners, and even the Gurkhas) should be anti-nationals. What kind of an idiotic history writing is this? If NCERT textbooks are to be copied into Wikipedia, then what kind of an encyclopedia is this?
The other mistake in this article wording would be the use of the word 'European' when actually the word 'British' would have been more appropriate. The words 'Europe' and 'British' are understand as antonyms in many locations in history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.21.213 ( talk) 10:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
The contention about the term 'India' is not understandable! India the nation and India the subcontinent are different. The explanation given seems to be some nonsense with no connection to the query.
As to the argument about the word, 'European', of employees of the Company being from non-English origin: The Company is generally and intelligently understood as British. If the nationality of the employees are being taken into account, then the Company should be mentioned as 'Indian Subcontinent' company or even as 'Indian' company. For most of its employees were from the subcontinent. However, it would be most unintelligent manner to define a company by employee-nationality.
As to the Irish element and such talk, Ireland was fully a part of Britain, in the same manner the areas of current-day Pakistan and Bangladesh were part of Indian subcontinent. Nowhere in the history of British-India, does one identify the people from those places as Pakistanis and Banglaeshies. Even though in the case of British-India, it would have been more apt to mention each population by their traditional name, such Tamils, Travancoreans, Bengalies, Mugals, Kashnmiris, Malabaris, Mysorians, Marathas etc. instead mentioning them all as 'Indians' whenever anyone of them stand against the Company.
It is seen in the article that anyone who stood against the Company rule was 'Indian' and anyone who stood with the Company is either one of the mentioned groups or European!
It has been noted that elsewhere on Wikipedia, even Scots are not mentioned as British, but as Scots. As if Scotland is a different nation. If that be case, who is a British? If the word British is to mean only people from England, it might be a terrific use of national identification by Wikipedia.
As to the rebellion, it was a small mutiny that took place under the Company 'raj'. How anyone who knows anything about the history of the subcontinent will get false beliefs is not understood, other than that Indian-Wikipedia is creating false definitions to create confusions. In this article, the minor group of rioters are mentioned as 'Indians' while the huge content of populations like the Sikhs, Pattans, Madras, and many independent kingdoms like Travancore etc. who literally stood on the company's side, are mentioned by their traditional names. It would be more correct to mention the rioters and mutineers by the minor group identification, instead of placing them on the other huge number of populations who lived and live in the subcontinent.
Is there something wrong with the common administrators of Indian pages on Wikipedia. These pages have a smell of an Indian government propaganda page.
SIGNED -- 117.201.246.77 ( talk) 09:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
No,you stupid,republic of India was founded in 1947,not India,learn history.07:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC) Ovsek ( talk)
Keep your 'you stupid' to your self. If this is the way you want to teach history, keep that for your own children. There was no 'India' known to any native person inside the Indian peninsula, before the formation of British-India. It would be quite difficult to come across such claims of being an 'Indian' in any of the writings of old. Moreover, 650 small time kinddom,and at at least a few thousand kings. Most of them could not travel even 10 kms beyond their territory. Then what 'India' are you talking of. Keep your NCERT Text for Indian public exams. However, they do not suit the inside of an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.21.213 ( talk) 10:15, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Use of the term 'Indians' is also not acceptable. It seems to suggest that all people who lived in the Indian peninsula were 'Indians', and that all these 'Indians' were supportive of the rioters. It is not true. Only a very insignificant percentage of the population had any support for this mutiny, led by low rank soldiers of the East India Company army in Bengal. Even in this army, many did not support. Most civilians did not support, other than the aristocracy that had lost its power. Most parts of peninsula did not supp A mutiny has ro ort this rioting. Sot it is an unreasonable thing to use the term 'Indians' for the rioters. It simply adds everyone to a group, to which most did not belong. If the rioters are Indians, then what are the others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.253.97 ( talk) 11:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Sepoy mutiny was just a minor military mutiny. However, the Englishmen who came to this geographical area was overwhelmed by the size of the place to imagine that it was a revolt that was taking place all over the geographical area. Truth is that most of the population stood by the British rulers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.16.154 ( talk) 15:29, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Remove this p please. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:46, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I find the naming of this article offensive and racist. A mutiny has to be against your own government. Since the british were a foreign power in India, the only way to describe the events of 1857 is a war of independence. Why is it racist? Because a mutiny assumes an event where people were unhappy with their own government, and were revolting against one aspect of governance. Whereas in 1857 we were trying to throw of british enslavement of India. Calling it a mutiny is a white European perspective, that belittles the event, and the people who fought and died for that Independence. It would be like calling the American Revolution the American Mutiny. it belittles the event. Dark knight212 ( talk) 02:45, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Very true. It's unfair and racist to call it mutiny or rebellion. It was resistance against foreign invaders. So it was war of independence and not rebellion. Saimashafait ( talk) 11:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Hoe can causality figures get outdated? The lowest figure in 100,000 and is reliably sourced Modern sources do not trump this, they just raised the upper limit. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
A couple more points, please will edds not misrepresents sources. Secondly my copy of Dalrymple does not give a figure for total dead on pages 4 or 5. Slatersteven ( talk) 10:00, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
The article currently states as a fact: "The war and its aftermath resulted in the deaths of at least 800,000 people". This looks to me like the contributor who picked that number simply went for the highest estimate that could be found. Is there a better way of doing this? We all love big numbers, but could a more skeptical approach, such as "estimates range between 50,000 and 1,000,000" be employed, with some critical commentary on the assumptions made in arriving at the varying numbers? (E.g., are the larger numbers arrived at by adding in the deaths resultant from cholera epidemics that swept India afterward?) Maybe
Lewis F. Richardson's research on casualty figures in major armed conflicts (Statistics of Deadly Quarrels), flawed and imperfect though it is, could be drawn on as a source here? As I recall, Richardson made an effort to come up with consensus numbers, although his bias was toward picking numbers that would fit on a statistical curve he was trying/hoping to find in the data. Since Richardson's main interest was in determining the size/scale of each of the hundreds of conflicts he looked at (Richardson was a meteorologist and saw war as something like a hurricane, and wanted to come up with a logarithmic scale for the intensity of conflicts); and since the key metric he used was the number of casualties/deaths, he would have had a keen interest in determining whether the Sepoy Mutiny was/was not on the same scale as the American Civil War and the Tai-Ping Rebellion, which occurred around the same time. Not saying Richardson is always right--not even close, I would venture--but his figures, whatever they are (I have not checked) might offer a starting point.
65.88.88.127 (
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20:38, 22 August 2017 (UTC)