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If you notice, the last paragraph of the introduction is poorly structured and not well organized.
"With the world's fourth largest economy in purchasing power and the second fastest growing large economy, India has made rapid progress in the last decade, especially in information technology. Although India's standard of living is projected to rise sharply in the next half-century, it currently battles high levels of poverty, persistent malnutrition, and environmental degradation. A multi-lingual, multi-ethnic society, India is also home to a diversity of wildlife in a variety of protected habitats."
What does India's multi-lingual, multi-ethnic society have to do with India's emergence as a developed nation? I think the last sentence should be moved to the second paragraph as it talks about India's diversity. I would really suggest that people dont just slap sentences here and there because they feel like it. This page has earned FA status, lets not lose it please.
142.151.169.245 22:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
We, as responsible citizens of India are deeply hurt with the introduction of India in this article. Even though Wikipedia is open for editing, please do ensure that such irresponsible changes are tracked and the person responsible be delisted from editing Wikipedia.
We would be grateful if the derogatory remarks against India are altered as soon as possible.
Reagrds A patriot from India
I have reverted recent image additions to the article. Please discuss here before adding them back. I personally find them cluttering. Regards, Ganeshk ( talk) 17:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The images in question (with their respective sections) are:
Politics | |
Economy |
I will wait for others to comment on these pictures. Regards,
Ganeshk (
talk)
02:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
These images can be viewed in best without any character distortion if you put in correct resolutions like IndianPoliticalHistory at 863 pixels,Unity in Diversity at 965 pixes. So analyse original image for quality rather than what is appearing in talk pages. I will modify images based on suggestions.-- Indianstar 03:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Remember they are Jpegs. SVG images are highly recommended. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is adult content there on the main page. It is historic but is not appropriate for those below 18 yrs of age. Is this website only for Adults? Chanakyathegreat 17:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I know that the picture has got histocic values, but I know that Wikipedia is also accessed by Children. So if you can find a replacement with a historic image, please do it. Chanakyathegreat 03:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I am least bothered about your picture. I am referring to the Ajanta cave picture. I don't have any problem with that image, since I am an adult. Small Kids do look for information on the net. When they search for information on India and they stumble upon this picture, will trouble them. It is better to replace that image with another one. A historic one for sure. Thank you. Chanakyathegreat 15:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the remarks of Chanakya over here. As an Indian, educated in hardcore modern day Indian Education system,in a major Indian metro, I am sure that images like these were part of government published history text books that we used in school. In fact most of the schools and educational institutions organize trips to the caves and encourage minors and students to visit the caves as they give an insight in historical Indian Art. There is no way that these images are offensive in any sense. Shashank.aggarwal 07:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Is Chanakyathegreat serious? Adult content? Amazing. Chanakya himself would blush at such embarrassment! To lambast the artistic representation of the human form and its physical acts as pornography is shameful. Such images are important for reminding us that something that was historically celebrated and accepted as normal is now considered deviant and obscene. It's an perfect study in social psychology. Some times such censorship goes too far, as when John Ashcroft draped a veil across the chest of Justice! Next time, he'll bind her hands! Instead of hiding the human body from your children, teach them about it. Sarayuparin 21:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
ajanta cave pictures are most valuable artistic heritage of India, It perfectly makes sense to put it in the front page. I do not find the pictures offensive or pornographic and I dont think it can be seen as porn by anyone. about the adult content issue in wiki you can search for breast and a high res picture of female breast ( not that I call it a pornographic use ) appears which is more to the "adult content" side. in view of some portals which are accessible to children although they are more mature in content e.g cannibalism I find that the ajanta cave pictures are not atall out of place. Given the weight of ajanta caves in history of indian arts I find that it is just natural to put it in the india page without any compromise. 24.60.249.125 22:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)jeroje
Right, what's everyone's problem. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 05:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I rolled back Himalayanashoka again. This simply isn't the way we do things: edit warring leads to confused and torn articles. If Himalayanashoka has a constructive proposal, let him argue it on talk, there are enough serious editors sympathetic towards India here that will ensure that if his proposal has any value, it will be implemented. This is the reason we have talkpages: seek consensus. dab (𒁳) 15:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
(sigh) I suggest you read a bit on political science before you talk to me about what is encyclopaedic or not. Major power is a neologism and synonymous with great power, the major power article was deleted and redirects to great power. Major power = Great power but major power is not as much of an academic term like great power. Major power is used more colloquially, so no it not a more encyclopaedic term than great power. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 23:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Great power in what? Economic? Global political influence? military? A developed nation? Sports? IT-related? Those are what superpowers were. "Emerging" is a little too speculative. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Blacksun. Here is the lead paragraph from Great Power:
“ | A Great power is a nation or state that, through its great economic, political and military strength, is able to exert power over world diplomacy. Its opinions are strongly taken into account by other nations before taking diplomatic or military action. Characteristically, they have the ability to intervene militarily almost anywhere, and they also have soft cultural power. | ” |
As Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh have recently reminded Indians, there is a flip side to the grandiose fantasies of world power: India's per capita income is lower than Sri Lanka's; India ranks 126 in the List of countries by Human Development Index, while Sri Lanka is 93 and China 81. It has the 12th largest economy in nominal GDP, while China's is 4th (purchasing power parity ranking doesn't give the extent of disparity). Last year India didn't have the political clout either to get itself elected to the UN Security Council or its candidate, Shashi Tharoor, to UN Secretary Generalship. The former may happen yet, but only with the support of the US and China. As for military strength, I'm not an expert on the Indian military, but I doubt India has the ability to intervene "anywhere in the world," as the U.S. does, or Great Britain did in the Falkland War. As for soft power, Olympic sports is an example where China has gained enormous respect worldwide; India, however, is barely an also-ran. Of course, India has made great strides. It may yet become a great power, but that hasn't happened yet. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding idiotic I am just trying to add a little point to this discussion. See there can be other meanings to Great Power rather than one mentioned in the article (even though I cannot debate on them). As far as the Political Influence goes I feel that India has always been a soft state. About the military, I guess the only reason we have a force as large as we have because of the hostility with the neighbors, otherwise the things would have been different. And we have never been known as great sports persons or athletes. However these factors should not overshadow the fact the India's mildness and tolerance are a great virtue, it has been a country of saints and we should not be surprised that nature is found in the overall behavior and attitude of the country. See somehow we need to acknowledge that keeping in mind the negative points, the positives are way too heavy. Like the list goes on and on. One of the few countries in the world that can make their own cars, launch their satellites, have nuclear power, are the largest (or in the top league) producers, manufacturers and exporters of innumerable items, are among the fastest growing economies, among the largest already, biggest democracy, multi lingual, multi religious etc..the only country that can be termed equal or even greater than India is US, not even China due to the politics and intolerance over their.
This is not an argument, however I wanted to put my point of view as a food for thought for the discussion. Hope it helps. Shashank.aggarwal 08:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
It's already in the See Also. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 04:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
"Emerging" is speculative, and I would prefer not adding unnecessary gloat terms to the page. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I support the addition of India as an emerging superpower link. It's not speculation. It is based on reports by organisations with great experience in these fields. Here is some good news Indian economy 'to overtake UK'. India already is a great power. Chanakyathegreat 14:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
BBC, never writes in a straight forward manner, always there will be if and butts. For the psyops about infrastructure in the BBC article, here is another article from a journalist who visited India to write the article. India is an aspiring superpower on the rise, rivaling China. Chanakyathegreat 14:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
So the conclusion is that with only the basic infrastructure India can grow 9% and with the government investing in infrastrure to make it world class, will help to boost the economy and will help it to grow above 10%. Chanakyathegreat 14:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The meaning of Occupation being altered.
Certain questions.
Who authorised the British to Govern India. Was this with the approval of the Indians?
Did all the Indians supported the British in governing them?
When the Indian's and later under the Leadership of Mahatma Gandhi asked the British to quit, why didn't they quit until 1947.
Why no representation was made in the British parliment by Indians and what authority was given to Indians to mangage the affairs of the nation.
First answer these questions. Then we can think of changing the meaning of occupation. It must not be military occupation. For your kind information it was a military occupation which started with the arrival of the British and other foreign military.
Chanakyathegreat 17:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Look, rereading my comment it may seem like I was patronizing yours, but I was just telling you to answer more reasonably to Chanakya as opposed to saying that no-one should have left Africa because of the cheetahs. It sounded like you were making an analogy between British rule of India and the way humans rule over animals, which is (needless to say) racist to the point of disgust. If you had talked about the Mughals, Sakas, Guptas etc. instead of talking about human migrations out of Africa I wouldn't have bothered replying and left it to Chanakya. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 03:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It's really funny to note that you have to resort to the period of human evolution to change the meaning of occupation. Even if you consider that time. The Africans spread over to all the world. They was not occupying anyone else land since it was them that existed at that time and all the land belonged to them. One British person just like you brought tried and succeeded in bringing the fraudent Aryan invasion theory. Who are the adivasis? As you said, the adivasis are the main inhabitants and claimants of the Indian land. The Indians are the sons and daughters of the adivais who accepted change with time. The Adivais still stick to the age old practice. Even the modern Adivasis including me do continue certain tradition and belief system of the adivais including considerng the sun and snake as god. Now what the British were doing in India. Do they belong to the Adivasi clan. Yes, to their ansesters in east Africa. Now does that give the Indians the right to govern U.K by your logic. I am ready to govern Britain but remember I will rule in a similar fashion the British did in India. You will not have any rights in governance. it will be solely by me. Chanakyathegreat 03:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I never meant that caste or that tribe. The meaning of Adivasi is Adi means early vasis means living or those living from historic time. The Indians are the modern adivasis. When you look at Britain and your cousins in East Africa you find a lot of difference. This is because they changed with time adopting to the situation and the massive changes made a lot of difference over a period of many centuries. You are trying to replace Indian with British and saying that the Britishers are Indians. Chandragupta maurya, Cholas, Cheras, Dravidians are not people from outside India. Theya are all Indians. Regarding the Mughals, yes they were outsiders. Being in India they changed to being Indians and became a part of this land. The attempt by you to revert history to suit what you think is right is not acceptable. It must remain solely as a blind belief of yours. You have no right to compare a rule by Indian Chandragupta Maurya to a rule of exploitation and oppression by the foreign British in India. Even though the British occupation is for a very small fraction of Indian history, we Indians are not going to remove the history of one of the most brutal oppressive regimes. It will stay for ever. Chanakyathegreat 05:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
An occupation is a military administration by a power that is not considered to be the legitimate authority in a country. This was not the situation of India under the Raj. India was colonized, and was perhaps a victim of imperialism, and whatever other such words you want to employ. But to describe it as an occupation is to twist the meaning of that word out of all recognizable shape. Britain's position in India was not the result of military conquest alone, but of treaties signed with the native rulers. I believe this is more or less true in nearly all cases. Certainly the British relationship with the various princely states, who together made up maybe a third of India, cannot be reasonably described as an occupation. That the Indian people did not like British rule has nothing to do with whether or not it was an occupation. "Occupation" is a clear term with a clear meaning in international law, and that meaning has to do with control and administration by the military. This was not how India was governed under the Raj, and the term is completely inappropriate. There's no need to get into Adavasis or Chandragupta Maurya to determine that "occupation" is the wrong word. john k 07:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Its territory was a part of pre-partitioned British India, and has a long history of settlement and civilisation including the Indus Valley Civilisation. Most of it was conquered in the 1st millennium BC by Persians and Greeks. Later arrivals include the Arabs, Afghans, Turks, and Mongols. The territory was incorporated into the British Raj in the nineteenth century.
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Occupation means military administration, usually by a country that does not have sovereignty over the area. Colonization or Imperialism is not the same thing as occupation. Occupation has a specific meaning, and British rule in India does not qualify. Were the British occupying the princely states, too, or just the directly ruled provinces? john k 22:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The British Army eliminated those who opposed them. The rulers of the princely states including Veera Pandya Kattabomman, Jhansi Rani, Marthanada verma, Pazhazzi Raja, Tipu sultan, Tantia Tope, and many such rulers were killed to take control of India. Also those who opposed the British like Mahatma Gandhi, Netaji, Veer Savarkar, Bhagat Singh, Azad and many more leaders were either jailed or eliminated. Chanakyathegreat 09:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Despite countless invasions over the past 5000 years, Indian culture and society has been so resilient, that it has either thrown away or completely absorbed any foreign influences, with the social fabric largely remaining unchanged and intact. India emerged as modern democratic nation-state in 1947, when the subcontinental populace expelled all non-native traders in an intense movement for social reforms and forged it into a single nation, thus restoring the glory of the past Indian empires. | ” |
There is nothing wrong with the current version of the text. Here are the sentence which is seen by some as the main point of controversy
“ | Politically controlled by the British East India Company from the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain starting the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
The sentence was created by me, but based on the original version by Nichalp, someone with a lot of experience with Wikipedia featured articles; it was followed by a month's back and forth between me and Nichalp over the right language. In addition, I consulted two retired professors, both India experts at the University of Chicago, for the right neutral language. It is very import for the language to be neutral, especially in the lead. Here is an example from the Encylopaedia Britannica's lead describing the British period:
“ | Only after the arrival of the Portuguese navigator Vasco da Gama in 1498 and the subsequent establishment of European maritime supremacy did India become exposed to major external influences arriving by sea, a process that culminated in the absorption of the subcontinent within the British Empire.
Direct administration by the British, which began in 1858, effected a political and economic unification of the subcontinent, the legacy of which is found in many aspects of the current Indian state, including its parliamentary system of government. |
” |
Presumably my interlocutors will complain about the Britanicca text as well, since it doesn't use "occupation." It is they who need to read Indian history—not some Hindu right-wing partisan version, in which the heroes are Veer Sarkarkar, Netaji, Bhagat Singh, and Chandrashekhar Azad (with Gandhi thrown in grudgingly, I'm sure)—but some real history books, the kind that they read in college and graduate school. Part of the problem is that these people have been engaged in the past. Here is a classic example from December 2006. It concerned a similar insistence on their part on using the words "non-native expulsion" in describing the final fate of the British in India. We asked them very reasonably to find credible sources which use these words and provided, for our own part, searchable Indian history books on Amazon that didn't use that kind of language. After vaguely referring to NCERT books (contorversial high-school history books put out during the BJP tenure, and later retracted) the said person finally went on the internet and, hurriedly misreading Gandhi's book "Hind Swaraj," produced the fragment of a sentence from it, in support. It turned out, when I read the complete sentence, it meant exactly the opposite; in other words, Gandhi didn't think that the "physical expulsion" of the British was a sine qua non for independence. It was at that point that Nichalp said that our "interlocutors" need to be treated as trolls and blocked or the page be protected from time to time. So, as far as I am concerned, the current text is fine; it is they who need to do some rethinking, and more importantly, some learning. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
For God's sake people, occupation is not a synonym for colonization. France was occupied by the Germans during World War II, but it wasn't colonized by them. Similarly, Germany was occupied by the allies after World War II, but is generally not considered to have been colonized by them. On the other hand, colonial rule is generally not considered an occupation. Occupation generally means military rule over territory one doesn't claim sovereignty over. This is not what happened in India, and using the term is wrong. john k 07:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Without occupying one nation cannot rule another nation. Military control is the first step in taking control of a nation. When the military control is lost they lose control of that nation. That's what happened in 1947. When British has no more military control over the situation they had to leave and they left. Simple. France was occupied by Germans. How can that be when India was not occupied by the British. Was that not the Nazis were governing the French. Why this partiality? This is like saying if you kill military personnel it is freedom movement and if you kill civilians it is terrorism or when the Pentagon was attacked it was freedom struggle and when WTC was hit, it is terrorism. Chanakyathegreat 14:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, text books or no textbooks, the meaning of Non-natives means non-Indians. You seem to believe that the Britishers are Indians. Whether the Britishers stay in India as tourists or visit India, it is not an issue for Gandhiji. He was not a person who showed hatred towards others. But he wanted the governance of India to be made by Indians and not by a foreign occupying force. Chanakyathegreat 14:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
For God's sake no. You have no idea what you're talking about. France was occupied by the Germans because German control was exercised by the military. There was no civilian German administration. Occupation is a less intensive form of control than that exercised by the British in India. You clearly have no command of English usage, and I don't see why you should think you have the right to dictate usage to those of us who do. john k 06:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Occupied is not the correct term. John's defination is correct. I have no idea why colonised is not used instead. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
How about ... initially annexed by the British Raj, and later becoming a part of the British Empire...? =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain from the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
Just a food for thought in the debate, "directly administered" seems to be a very mild term, atleast to me who believes that the period of second half of 18th century to the first half of the 20th were the dark ages in Indian history. In which we have very little to show as gained and lot to show as lost.
Shashank.aggarwal
09:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and colonised by Great Britain from the mid-19th century after soliders revolt in the First Independence war, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance under the leadership of Mahatma Gandhi as a means of social protest. | ” |
-- Indianstar 14:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure what is meant by a "mild" term. "Direct admininstration" is a neutral term and it describes the way India was governed. (See British Empire, the Colonies, and India below for an extended discussion of the history behind the term.) At the risk of repeating myself, here is what the Encyclopaedia Britannica lead says:
“ | Direct administration by the British, which began in 1858, effected a political and economic unification of the subcontinent, the legacy of which is found in many aspects of the current Indian state, including its parliamentary system of government. | ” |
A number of things need to be clarified about the lead:
I think that either the current version (which is the most precise):
“ | Politically controlled by the British East India Company from the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain starting the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
or, the less precise version I last suggested, viz.
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain from the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
or, the even less precise, but more compact version:
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and later governed as the British Raj, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
is the most accurate we can be while still being neutral; furthermore, the latter two versions hint at the use of force in the choice of the word "annexed." Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
At the picture where it says "Indian developed Agni-II ballistic missile on a mobile launcher platform during the Republic day parade 2004."
It should say "Indian-developed Agni-II ballistic missile on a mobile launcher platform during the Republic day parade 2004.", with "-" between "Indian" and "developed"
70.144.216.211 01:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Parents
sacrificing sons to be prosperous
vkvora 04:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Bharat was never a country. It was another name used by South Asians, for the subcontinent before 1947. Modern Indians call RoI Bharat. But this name doesnt have any place in an Encyclopaedia since this will lead to another huge misunderstanding, for example, someone saying India used to be South Asia. Please consider this and remove Bharat from the page. Unre4L 00:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, again you are using your own version that shows your contempt towards others and you are trying to hide the truth below a bunch of lies. Bharath existed. That's what Maha Bharath (The Great Bharath) tells us. Modern Indians call Republic of India or Bharat meaning the same nation. Just because the boundaries of the nation changed slightly, one cannot change the name itself. Chanakyathegreat 05:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide source of white horse and Mount meru. Chanakyathegreat 14:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
If you sell a small part of your property to a person who builds his own house will that make you to change the name of your house. Also Pakistan is just a temporary nation that may exist or may not exist in the future. It is based on Islam and the nation is not just Pakistan but an Islamic republic of Pakistan. If China can claim part of Tibet and especially Taiwan formed 50 or so years ago, surely India has a better right to claim Pakistan. Just because it is not done at present did not mean it cannot be made in the future, nor there is a guarantee that the so called Pakistani's themselves will not be joining India (Bharat). Chanakyathegreat 14:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
India's national anthem has the sentence "Bharata Bhagya Vidatha" ... any indian who doesn't speak english says: MERA BHARAT MAHAN / "Bharat Mata" .. the idea to remove the word BHARAT would be of complete ignorance and to ignore the true word. It is used and has been used since centuries and if it wasn't for the word "India" - India would be called "Bharat". User:sarejahan 13:44, 30 January 2007
This article is a bit confusing to me. My understanding is that this is not a very common usage compared to North American and possibly other usage which define East Indians as people who are from India as opposed to West Indians from the Carribean or Indians, which can mean either the indigenous peoples of central North America (or I suppose anyplace in the Americas except for the Arctic) OR people from India. Plus it does not have much in the way of references. Comments? Suggestions?-- Filll 04:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I concur. I believe "East Indian" is also used in Britain, where there are large numbers of both "East Indian" and "West Indian" immigrants, but I'm not certain of this. john k 06:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The article is correct. East Indians are a Catholics of Maharashtrian origin in coastal Maharashtra around Mumbai. Agreed online references aren't too many, I've pulled some out: [1], [2]. Anyways, this should be posted on the WT:INWNB =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
(This section is a continuation of the "Occupation" section above.)
Since Wikipedia proceeds by providing credible sources, it is important to examine history texts for use of "occupation" to describe the British period in India. I am providing below six standard Indian history text-books and four more advanced texts on British colonial India. I am also providing the link for the Encarta article on Indian history. All books can be searched for various words on line. I searched for "occupied," "occupation," and "British occupation." Nowhere were the words used to describe the entire British period in India. "British occupation" may have been used by the publishers in a back cover blurb, or in the copyright information, or in a quote, but never once was the expression used by the authors themselves in describing the period. Please examine the texts carefully. (In addition, I read through the long Britannica article on Indian history and the word is not used there either; however, I can't provide that link since it requires a subscription.) I now feel confident enough about the word's usage that if Chanakyathegreat and others insist on using the word in the India page lead, I will request a formal Wikipedia arbitration and put the matter to rest. Here are the sources (all searchable). I have also provided examples below them of how the words "occupied" or "occupation" were used in these texts. Finally, I also searched for "non-native" and "nonnative." The words were never used in any of the texts.
(Note: Please don't rush to the internet and post the first instance you find of "British occupation." We are talking about credible sources.)
Examples:
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
12:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
the British may have "occupied" individual places, like Bombay, Delhi, etc., but they couldn't have "occupied India" because no 'India' as a political entity existed. At best, the British occupied the [remnants of the] Mughal Empire. You can only "occupy" a political entity, you cannot "occupy" a geographical entity, you "settle" or "colonialize" it. dab (𒁳) 08:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Boundries keep changing. The USA was not what it is today, say even a 100 years back. --AJ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.145.104.148 ( talk) 09:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
Nichalp is right. The sovereign nation-state certainly came to existence in 1947. For the British raj years, the situation is described well in:
Consequently, India (representing both British India and the princely states) did make appearances internationally, e.g. as a founding member, in 1919, at the League of Nations, or, later, at the 1932 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles, when it licked the U.S. 24-1 in hockey (and the newspapers said that Indians should have played with one hand tied behind their backs or with ski boots on). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Under the Mughlals (and much befoe that too) the country was called Hindustan, which is nothing but India (English for that). The Mughal emperor always held the title Emperor of Hindustan. Lik I said before, the boundries of India might have changed over the centuries, but the term India (which came from Indus).--AJ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.145.104.148 ( talk) 17:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
AJ, Replying to your points
As is obvious from the above examples, colony is the appropriate word. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
It can be said that the current indian culture is the product of the contact between different civilisations, but it is inaccurate to state that there was an Indian culture that transcended through the ages. Sfacets 04:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have written substantially about the reasons justififying the use of 'occupation', while maintaining that colonialism is equal (in meaning) and thus acceptable (if it Satisfies a certain colonial editor). However, I would like to move away from the narrow point of discussion on a word, to the lead in general. While there is no doubt (and disagreement thus) about the existance of British rule in India, and therefore has to be mentioned, the lead may not be the appropriate place. We already have the history section for it. The reasons for this (in my opinion) are
1. The article is about India, with a 3000 year history, and the British era (rule, not as traders) was at most 190 years (as rulers, begining from bengal, to their Zenith post 1857).
2. If we mention people who ruled a part of India (as we know it today) for 190 years, we would have to mention others, (like the Mughals) who ruled a larger part of India (territorially) and for a longer period (spanning 300 years approx. begining from Emperor Babur to its Zenith with Aurangzeb, to the decline). And they are not the only examples of Pan Indian rulers.
The argument (probably) in favour of mentioning the colonial occupation might be its current relevance and the visible infulence. But even there, the immediate predecessors, the Mughals, too have a far greater infulence on present India, be it in administration, language, or culture (the colonial editor here mentioned British occupation having produced 'culture' and 'heritage', if it really did, such 'culture' and 'heritage' is far greater in magnitude, viz a viz the Mughals, or any other longer ruling enitity in India)
To conclude (what I wish to convey)
1. I do not wish to "wish away" the British infulence, or its existance. I disagree, however, with the sneaky attempt by an obviously biased editor to accord any sense of acceptability, or legitimacy to the British rule.
2. Would therefore like to have the lead worked on, to be more inclusive and less specific to a particular era. Mention the British, just like any other ruler, in the history section, in accordance with their duration (with respect to the 3000 year history of India). AJ-India 18:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Great Britain directly administered from mid 19th century???? british rule ended in india by mid 19th century and britain took control of india after the 1856 sepoy mutiny(first freedom struggle), it's very strange that people didn't notice it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Muralichoudry ( talk • contribs) 00:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC).
The history section of this page says: "As a consequence, India came under the direct control of the British Crown as a colony of the British Empire." In a general sense this is true, (although it should really say either "colony of Great Britain" or "a part of the British Empire,") however, India always had special status from 1858 onwards. For example, India was never a British crown colony as Ceylon was; nor was it a self-governing colony (or later a Dominion) like Australia or Canada were; nor yet a protectorate like Kenya and other countries in Africa. There was a Cabinet minister, the Secretary of State for India, as well as the India Office which directly ruled India. (The Viceroy of India was the head of the British administration in India; however, he reported to the Secretary of State for India, and through him to the Cabinet.) For all the other colonies, there was another Cabinet minister, called the Secretary of State for the Colonies. See for example, Conservative Government 1895-1905, or Liberal Government 1905-1915. So, in a technical sense India was never a colony; it was the Indian Empire. This was evident in the grandiloquent title of the British monarch in those days, e.g. George V:
“ | George, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions Beyond the Seas, King; Defender of the Faith; Emperor of India. | ” |
Perhaps a more accurate rewording of the sentence in the history section would be: "As a consequence, India came under the direct control of the British Crown as the Indian Empire." Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
British viewpoint. Chanakyathegreat 05:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
We can improve this article contents for better readability.(Like United States article) and I offer following suggestions.
Geography section should have two sub sections called 1) Terrain 2) Climate
History section should have subsections called 1)Pre Historic 2) Old civilizations 3) Indian
Empires(or some other appropriate sub title)4)Foreign empires
Demographics section should have subsections called 1) Languages 2) Religion 3)Education 4) Health.(I don't know whether 3 & 4 needs to fall under demographics but United states article has it under demographics)
Culture section should also have many appropriate sub titles.
Having sub section and directing users to relevant main articles.(Like Education in India) will increase viewership for other India related articles also.
Each main section should have some interesting image to create more interest to read article contents.-- Indianstar 04:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The infobox says that the GDP of India is the 3rd largest in the world but in every three lists avaible on Wikipedia show India as the 4th (after US, China and Japan). I can't fix it because the article is protected from editing. With respect, 13:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deliogul ( talk • contribs).
It is 4th and the article should show that. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 06:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Despite the fact that China occupies and administrates Tibet, there is suggestive evidence of resistance by native Tibetians for the cause of their country and to show that their government is in exhile operating in India. When viewing maps, a map has China as the border but there is also Tibet in parenthesis or in smaller print to show that Tibet is still there. Though China controls and maintains Tibet, there is still an issue here where one group says it is China and there is another group that says that it is Tibet but controlled by China. Thus, leading to a result, that since two opposing fractions have not yet resolved the issue of Tibet completley, Tibet, in some part, does share a border with in India. In the respect that the original country of Tibet has a border dispute with China and their government is still operative by some means, proving that the country is simply non-existant would show false cause. In some shape or form whether or not powerful enough to administrate that power, Tibet is still there. Tibet is culturally differenct from China and this culture is not the same as Chinese culture. At least, in some manner, maintain on the India page that Tibet, occupied by China, is there whether it would make a significant difference or not. For the people who do believe in a Free Tibet and need to study India, Tibet has a major role in the Indian page because of the mass significance in connections to India culturally, the history, the area is close in respect to India and the India page which displays its history and society has a major connection with Tibet whether or not we actually see it or feel it. Jayjrn 21:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)jayjrn
Let me first address the lead. Since the lead has to be very compact, we can't add much, but perhaps the following changes could be considered in the "bordering countries" sentence. The current version of the sentence is:
Here are two versions of a proposed change:
Much as I'd like to, I don't think it will make sense to replace Tibet Autonomous Region with Tibet; however, the former link points to the latter and all the controversy and history. I wonder what other editors think. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The second version seems that is the best that can be done along with references. Respectfully, Tibet is administrated by the PRC and we cannot say that Tibet exists today as a country according to world relations and the current status of world boundaries. But, there are always clauses and execptions whether it be it for the good or the bad. In this case, it is too little too late to actually change the status of historic Tibet dating back to the Nehru days when no protests were made. We can only watch and see what happens. This issue has been here since before my generation.
The region of Tibet controlled by the PRC is in a state flux where many human right violations are occuring. Natives of this region are stressing freedom from occupation or a self governing position with negotations still up for debate. Yet, the Tibetan culture and religion which is distinct still survives today. Since the people of Tibet cannot officialy respond to the loss of their land unlike the case with Kashmir where disputes are existant and widely known, it shouldn't be opted out because people are still protesting. Many view the intrusion as an illegal occupation and encroachment.
Yet, I believe that the India page should share a reference to Tibet whether it be through a historic, logistic, or cultural position or all of the above. Having it on the page doesn't necessarily mean that Tibet is soverign. But there is a status of native Tibet that is simply being wiped out. As long as the issue remains current not just here in wikipedia but on the global scale, the issue of the border status remains open and the conflict is yet to be determined. But all in all, the second version is the best appropriate fitting for the times.
Also, it should be noted that Askai Chin not only touches the Xinjian province but also the Tibetan Province.
Jayjrn 18:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)jayjrn
Mentioning Tibet and the fact is not recognised by individuals in Tibet opens a can of worms. The head of the Tibetan goverment in exile, the Dalai Lama has stated that he doesn't want independence from China. Now, In India groups are fighting for a separate Bodoland and Nagaland (to mention a few), and similar to the Tibetan movement, they too don't consider themselves being Indian citizens. Let's simplify this to just nation-states and not speak about the nittty-gritties in the lead? =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I've made discussions here with appropriate citations in connection with Ayyavazhi, here and Here. I've told many times that the main citation is from one of the most credible universities in India. Also the LMS Reports, Other couple of University papers etc seperately for its spread, singular nature etc... But, Backing up with the official statement (govt recognition etc...) in India, people themselves here, seem to have planned to remove Ayyavazhi from the main page (immedietly after the unblock of the page)though, I replied about the validity of the citations here many many times earlier. They there said me as 'lone-POV-rangers' . There may be very few people here to write about Ayyavazhi and it was because of the social and economical condition of Ayyavazhi. Please see here. One good example for this is, see the University book on Ayyavazhi reserch is titled as "Religion and Subaltern Agency". So it's not good to note as "lone ranger" etc. But on the other hand I was citing with University papers, rather than from newspapers or from other websites which are more affected by POVs than University reserches. Why it was not considered? Are citing with University papers a POV? If so, weather something is cited or not, if some ten people say one same thing, may it be accepted? Also Users, please see in the Talk:India/Ayyavazhi page that how many times i have repeated this same thing to a dozen of users. I've explined also many times the difference between Official recognition vs Factual existence of something, especially as per wikirules. Even though they don't understand and every day different users come with the very same issue and by which I was made to repeate what I have told earlier. So I request the users to take care in this matter.
Also one thing i like to bring to the knowedge of other wiki editors. In this very same matter I was blocked for violating 3RR. Though I asked them to comment about the edits in the talk page before reverting, none do it, but went on reverting without discussion. When I revert that, I was complined by them (some users) for violating WP:3RR.
Once more I place the citation down,
Also many other (Ayyavazhi books) citations too . But I don't cited them because they may definitly thrown away as POVs by not even considering it. Even University reserch papers are under such a large controversy here!!! - Paul 19:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The line:
"The President is the his role in governance is largely ceremonial."
Appears early in the government section. I suggest replacement with:
"The President's role in governance is largely ceremonial."
Any body may tell me about Madrash? Is it a city or village in India?-- 134.159.150.75 05:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
"The Indian constitution recognises 23 official languages." - however the source given for this statement says 22. -- Zero talk 07:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
So, erm, are you guys done duelling over occupation vs. colonialism vs. gradual annexation vs. direct administrative control :P Would be nice to unprotect it.-- Blacksun 09:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please delete the following interwikis: aa:, ab:, ak:, av:, ay:, bi:, bm:, bo:, bh:, bug:, ce:, ch:, cho:, chy:, cr:, cv:, dz:, ee:, fj:, gn:, ha:, ho:, ig:, ki:, kj:, lo:, mg:, mh:, mus:, my:, ng:, nv:, ny:, sn:, tum:, za:, dz:, ee:, iu:, xh:, zu:, ie:, xal:, rn:, kv:, pih:, or:, pi:, pap:, sg:.
And a WARNING TO ALL INDIAN NATIONALIST VANDALS: DO NOT CREATE PAGES IN WIKIPEDIAS WHERE YOU DON'T KNOW THE LANGUAGE. THEY WILL BE DELETED, THEIR INTERWIKIS REMOVED, AND YOU WILL BE BLOCKED. Whoever has been doing this, creating all these pages "India" on wikis and then just writing in English everywhere... DO you have any idea how much work you have created for us? It took me half an hour to remove your spam on wikis from aa to nv, and that's still not the end. I will clean the rest of your junk later. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.251.68.181 ( talk) 00:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
The page is protected again as the debate is not yet over and to prevent further edit warring. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
what is this Interwikis? Neechalp 18:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Following Major information about India is missing in this article
Military and Foreign relations: It should state about recent Indo-US nuclear deal,sanctions against India after nuclear test,gradual reversal of sanctions after Sep 11,2001,Improvement of foreign ties with US and recent Peace efforts with pakistan.It should also state that "India along with Germany,Japan,Brazil is requesting for UN security council permanent membership which was supported by many countries.
Economy:.It should have major export/import commodities,export/import trade values.Current Foreign reserves(which is considered as one of the important positive points of Indian economy),FII growth in recent years.
Politics: Statement which says that Indian states are dominated by Regional parties is wrong. Except Tamilnadu and some north eastern states,other states are mostly dominated by national parties. Even now, around 20 states are either ruled directly by Congress/BJP/Communists or one of these parties is a major alliance partner in the state.If you include other recognised national parties like Samajwadi party,this figure may be more.-- Indianstar 09:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Dearest AJ, Chanakyathegreat, NobleEagle, IndianStar, ShyamBihari, Sarvagnya, Saravask, Ragib, Ganeshk
This is an appeal to you all to restore the India page lead to its last version by 10:07, 21 January 2007 CambridgeBayWeather.
British vandal Fowler&fowler has been time and again incorporating highly derogatory British POV in the lead and completely destroying the balance of an Indic page. It is of utmost importance to punish this "racially inferior 3rd class British bastard writer" (henceforth RI3CBBW) Fowler&fowler (he is supposedly a local UK British professor, must be 3rd rate in UK). He is manipulating NichalP who is a very honest Indian administrator.
RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler communicates externally (chat/email) with NichalP to achieve his ways, to avoid discussion on this TalkPage, and makes NichalP revert and Lock/Protect the page with his British views. Unfortunately NichalP is very honest as shown by his behavior in the past few months. He is basically good, but needs to come out of RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler's influence through external chat/email discussions.
RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler manipulates NichalP with the technique of Lock/Protect so that his derogatory colonial writing stays for a longer duration. He manipulates NichalP to Lock/Protect after removing Indic views by saying that discussion is going on in the India TalkPage. NichalP agrees to Lock/Protect and then RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler cleverly avoids discussion on India TalkPage.
I thus appeal to you all to request "Unprotection" and restore the India page lead with Indic views. The Lock/Protection should now be Unlocked/Unprotected so that racially inferior 3rd class British bastard writer Fowler&fowler's writing may be removed.
HimalayanAshoka (Writing with the help of Licensed WikiAide Userics380005 13:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC))
To AJ (and others who are arguing for use of "occupation"), If you are that sure of your sources, why don't you and I go for a formal Wikipedia arbitration, with the loser agreeing both to donate $200 to the Wikimedia foundation and, with their cohorts, to forever hold their peace? As I mentioned in section Credible Sources and British "Occupation" of India, I feel enough confidence in my sources that I am willing to challenge anyone on the usage of the word. Again, I am saying that: A majority of credible sources (history textbooks or research monographs published by internationally recognized publishers and journal articles published in internationally recognized journals)—in describing the British presence in India during the years 1858-1947—use the terms "colony" or "Indian empire" for India and the terms "direct administration" or "direct rule," but not "occupation" for the British rule. So why don't you put your money where you mouth is and accept the arbitration. Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 20:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Sometimes, of course, the word "occupation" is used to drive home a political point. Thus Jawaharlal Nehru in his [http://www.amazon.com/Discovery-India-Oxford-Paperbacks/dp/0195623592/ Discovery of India] uses "occupation" to describe the entire British period; but, he is a partisan in the context, which an encyclopedia cannot be, however much we may admire Nehru and his writing. | ” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 20:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is a list of Indian authors, all professional historians. The first, Harvard historian Sugata Bose, is also a grand-nephew of Netaji. All books are searchable for both "British occupation" and "colonised" or "colony." Why don't you produce a similar list of books (and not dotcom websites) that use "occupation"?
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
AJ-India 22:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Here are some more references from Indian authors, including Amartya Sen Indian Nobel laureate. All books are searchable on-line. Have a blast looking for "British occupation," and then "colonial."
Can you produce even two books written in the last 15 years by anyone that uses "occupation" for the British rule? If so, let's have them! We are waiting. As for Nehru, I was the one who provided the Discovery of India reference, not you, so please don't claim credit for it. Anyway let's have your references!! I am anxious to go through them. No websites, just history books like mine. No arguments, just the references. No Japanese colonies, Iraqi colonies, but simply "British occupation" used for British rule in India. It's time to deliver! Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
AJ-India 23:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia works by credible references. If you want to use "British occupation" you have to provide credible references that use "British occupation," not "Japanese colony." Again, provide two references (text-books, or research monographs) from the last 15 years (like I have provided for "colony" or "colonised"), textbooks that use "British occupation" for British rule. I have provided ten references (the oldest is 1993), all by Indian authors, (including a Indian Nobel laureate) that not only use "colonised," but also don't use "occupation" for British rule. If you don't proved two, you are just making excuses. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
If you notice, the last paragraph of the introduction is poorly structured and not well organized.
"With the world's fourth largest economy in purchasing power and the second fastest growing large economy, India has made rapid progress in the last decade, especially in information technology. Although India's standard of living is projected to rise sharply in the next half-century, it currently battles high levels of poverty, persistent malnutrition, and environmental degradation. A multi-lingual, multi-ethnic society, India is also home to a diversity of wildlife in a variety of protected habitats."
What does India's multi-lingual, multi-ethnic society have to do with India's emergence as a developed nation? I think the last sentence should be moved to the second paragraph as it talks about India's diversity. I would really suggest that people dont just slap sentences here and there because they feel like it. This page has earned FA status, lets not lose it please.
142.151.169.245 22:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
We, as responsible citizens of India are deeply hurt with the introduction of India in this article. Even though Wikipedia is open for editing, please do ensure that such irresponsible changes are tracked and the person responsible be delisted from editing Wikipedia.
We would be grateful if the derogatory remarks against India are altered as soon as possible.
Reagrds A patriot from India
I have reverted recent image additions to the article. Please discuss here before adding them back. I personally find them cluttering. Regards, Ganeshk ( talk) 17:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The images in question (with their respective sections) are:
Politics | |
Economy |
I will wait for others to comment on these pictures. Regards,
Ganeshk (
talk)
02:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
These images can be viewed in best without any character distortion if you put in correct resolutions like IndianPoliticalHistory at 863 pixels,Unity in Diversity at 965 pixes. So analyse original image for quality rather than what is appearing in talk pages. I will modify images based on suggestions.-- Indianstar 03:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Remember they are Jpegs. SVG images are highly recommended. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is adult content there on the main page. It is historic but is not appropriate for those below 18 yrs of age. Is this website only for Adults? Chanakyathegreat 17:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I know that the picture has got histocic values, but I know that Wikipedia is also accessed by Children. So if you can find a replacement with a historic image, please do it. Chanakyathegreat 03:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I am least bothered about your picture. I am referring to the Ajanta cave picture. I don't have any problem with that image, since I am an adult. Small Kids do look for information on the net. When they search for information on India and they stumble upon this picture, will trouble them. It is better to replace that image with another one. A historic one for sure. Thank you. Chanakyathegreat 15:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the remarks of Chanakya over here. As an Indian, educated in hardcore modern day Indian Education system,in a major Indian metro, I am sure that images like these were part of government published history text books that we used in school. In fact most of the schools and educational institutions organize trips to the caves and encourage minors and students to visit the caves as they give an insight in historical Indian Art. There is no way that these images are offensive in any sense. Shashank.aggarwal 07:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Is Chanakyathegreat serious? Adult content? Amazing. Chanakya himself would blush at such embarrassment! To lambast the artistic representation of the human form and its physical acts as pornography is shameful. Such images are important for reminding us that something that was historically celebrated and accepted as normal is now considered deviant and obscene. It's an perfect study in social psychology. Some times such censorship goes too far, as when John Ashcroft draped a veil across the chest of Justice! Next time, he'll bind her hands! Instead of hiding the human body from your children, teach them about it. Sarayuparin 21:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
ajanta cave pictures are most valuable artistic heritage of India, It perfectly makes sense to put it in the front page. I do not find the pictures offensive or pornographic and I dont think it can be seen as porn by anyone. about the adult content issue in wiki you can search for breast and a high res picture of female breast ( not that I call it a pornographic use ) appears which is more to the "adult content" side. in view of some portals which are accessible to children although they are more mature in content e.g cannibalism I find that the ajanta cave pictures are not atall out of place. Given the weight of ajanta caves in history of indian arts I find that it is just natural to put it in the india page without any compromise. 24.60.249.125 22:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)jeroje
Right, what's everyone's problem. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 05:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I rolled back Himalayanashoka again. This simply isn't the way we do things: edit warring leads to confused and torn articles. If Himalayanashoka has a constructive proposal, let him argue it on talk, there are enough serious editors sympathetic towards India here that will ensure that if his proposal has any value, it will be implemented. This is the reason we have talkpages: seek consensus. dab (𒁳) 15:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
(sigh) I suggest you read a bit on political science before you talk to me about what is encyclopaedic or not. Major power is a neologism and synonymous with great power, the major power article was deleted and redirects to great power. Major power = Great power but major power is not as much of an academic term like great power. Major power is used more colloquially, so no it not a more encyclopaedic term than great power. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 23:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Great power in what? Economic? Global political influence? military? A developed nation? Sports? IT-related? Those are what superpowers were. "Emerging" is a little too speculative. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Blacksun. Here is the lead paragraph from Great Power:
“ | A Great power is a nation or state that, through its great economic, political and military strength, is able to exert power over world diplomacy. Its opinions are strongly taken into account by other nations before taking diplomatic or military action. Characteristically, they have the ability to intervene militarily almost anywhere, and they also have soft cultural power. | ” |
As Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh have recently reminded Indians, there is a flip side to the grandiose fantasies of world power: India's per capita income is lower than Sri Lanka's; India ranks 126 in the List of countries by Human Development Index, while Sri Lanka is 93 and China 81. It has the 12th largest economy in nominal GDP, while China's is 4th (purchasing power parity ranking doesn't give the extent of disparity). Last year India didn't have the political clout either to get itself elected to the UN Security Council or its candidate, Shashi Tharoor, to UN Secretary Generalship. The former may happen yet, but only with the support of the US and China. As for military strength, I'm not an expert on the Indian military, but I doubt India has the ability to intervene "anywhere in the world," as the U.S. does, or Great Britain did in the Falkland War. As for soft power, Olympic sports is an example where China has gained enormous respect worldwide; India, however, is barely an also-ran. Of course, India has made great strides. It may yet become a great power, but that hasn't happened yet. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding idiotic I am just trying to add a little point to this discussion. See there can be other meanings to Great Power rather than one mentioned in the article (even though I cannot debate on them). As far as the Political Influence goes I feel that India has always been a soft state. About the military, I guess the only reason we have a force as large as we have because of the hostility with the neighbors, otherwise the things would have been different. And we have never been known as great sports persons or athletes. However these factors should not overshadow the fact the India's mildness and tolerance are a great virtue, it has been a country of saints and we should not be surprised that nature is found in the overall behavior and attitude of the country. See somehow we need to acknowledge that keeping in mind the negative points, the positives are way too heavy. Like the list goes on and on. One of the few countries in the world that can make their own cars, launch their satellites, have nuclear power, are the largest (or in the top league) producers, manufacturers and exporters of innumerable items, are among the fastest growing economies, among the largest already, biggest democracy, multi lingual, multi religious etc..the only country that can be termed equal or even greater than India is US, not even China due to the politics and intolerance over their.
This is not an argument, however I wanted to put my point of view as a food for thought for the discussion. Hope it helps. Shashank.aggarwal 08:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
It's already in the See Also. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 04:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
"Emerging" is speculative, and I would prefer not adding unnecessary gloat terms to the page. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I support the addition of India as an emerging superpower link. It's not speculation. It is based on reports by organisations with great experience in these fields. Here is some good news Indian economy 'to overtake UK'. India already is a great power. Chanakyathegreat 14:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
BBC, never writes in a straight forward manner, always there will be if and butts. For the psyops about infrastructure in the BBC article, here is another article from a journalist who visited India to write the article. India is an aspiring superpower on the rise, rivaling China. Chanakyathegreat 14:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
So the conclusion is that with only the basic infrastructure India can grow 9% and with the government investing in infrastrure to make it world class, will help to boost the economy and will help it to grow above 10%. Chanakyathegreat 14:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The meaning of Occupation being altered.
Certain questions.
Who authorised the British to Govern India. Was this with the approval of the Indians?
Did all the Indians supported the British in governing them?
When the Indian's and later under the Leadership of Mahatma Gandhi asked the British to quit, why didn't they quit until 1947.
Why no representation was made in the British parliment by Indians and what authority was given to Indians to mangage the affairs of the nation.
First answer these questions. Then we can think of changing the meaning of occupation. It must not be military occupation. For your kind information it was a military occupation which started with the arrival of the British and other foreign military.
Chanakyathegreat 17:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Look, rereading my comment it may seem like I was patronizing yours, but I was just telling you to answer more reasonably to Chanakya as opposed to saying that no-one should have left Africa because of the cheetahs. It sounded like you were making an analogy between British rule of India and the way humans rule over animals, which is (needless to say) racist to the point of disgust. If you had talked about the Mughals, Sakas, Guptas etc. instead of talking about human migrations out of Africa I wouldn't have bothered replying and left it to Chanakya. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 03:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It's really funny to note that you have to resort to the period of human evolution to change the meaning of occupation. Even if you consider that time. The Africans spread over to all the world. They was not occupying anyone else land since it was them that existed at that time and all the land belonged to them. One British person just like you brought tried and succeeded in bringing the fraudent Aryan invasion theory. Who are the adivasis? As you said, the adivasis are the main inhabitants and claimants of the Indian land. The Indians are the sons and daughters of the adivais who accepted change with time. The Adivais still stick to the age old practice. Even the modern Adivasis including me do continue certain tradition and belief system of the adivais including considerng the sun and snake as god. Now what the British were doing in India. Do they belong to the Adivasi clan. Yes, to their ansesters in east Africa. Now does that give the Indians the right to govern U.K by your logic. I am ready to govern Britain but remember I will rule in a similar fashion the British did in India. You will not have any rights in governance. it will be solely by me. Chanakyathegreat 03:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I never meant that caste or that tribe. The meaning of Adivasi is Adi means early vasis means living or those living from historic time. The Indians are the modern adivasis. When you look at Britain and your cousins in East Africa you find a lot of difference. This is because they changed with time adopting to the situation and the massive changes made a lot of difference over a period of many centuries. You are trying to replace Indian with British and saying that the Britishers are Indians. Chandragupta maurya, Cholas, Cheras, Dravidians are not people from outside India. Theya are all Indians. Regarding the Mughals, yes they were outsiders. Being in India they changed to being Indians and became a part of this land. The attempt by you to revert history to suit what you think is right is not acceptable. It must remain solely as a blind belief of yours. You have no right to compare a rule by Indian Chandragupta Maurya to a rule of exploitation and oppression by the foreign British in India. Even though the British occupation is for a very small fraction of Indian history, we Indians are not going to remove the history of one of the most brutal oppressive regimes. It will stay for ever. Chanakyathegreat 05:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
An occupation is a military administration by a power that is not considered to be the legitimate authority in a country. This was not the situation of India under the Raj. India was colonized, and was perhaps a victim of imperialism, and whatever other such words you want to employ. But to describe it as an occupation is to twist the meaning of that word out of all recognizable shape. Britain's position in India was not the result of military conquest alone, but of treaties signed with the native rulers. I believe this is more or less true in nearly all cases. Certainly the British relationship with the various princely states, who together made up maybe a third of India, cannot be reasonably described as an occupation. That the Indian people did not like British rule has nothing to do with whether or not it was an occupation. "Occupation" is a clear term with a clear meaning in international law, and that meaning has to do with control and administration by the military. This was not how India was governed under the Raj, and the term is completely inappropriate. There's no need to get into Adavasis or Chandragupta Maurya to determine that "occupation" is the wrong word. john k 07:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Its territory was a part of pre-partitioned British India, and has a long history of settlement and civilisation including the Indus Valley Civilisation. Most of it was conquered in the 1st millennium BC by Persians and Greeks. Later arrivals include the Arabs, Afghans, Turks, and Mongols. The territory was incorporated into the British Raj in the nineteenth century.
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Occupation means military administration, usually by a country that does not have sovereignty over the area. Colonization or Imperialism is not the same thing as occupation. Occupation has a specific meaning, and British rule in India does not qualify. Were the British occupying the princely states, too, or just the directly ruled provinces? john k 22:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The British Army eliminated those who opposed them. The rulers of the princely states including Veera Pandya Kattabomman, Jhansi Rani, Marthanada verma, Pazhazzi Raja, Tipu sultan, Tantia Tope, and many such rulers were killed to take control of India. Also those who opposed the British like Mahatma Gandhi, Netaji, Veer Savarkar, Bhagat Singh, Azad and many more leaders were either jailed or eliminated. Chanakyathegreat 09:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Despite countless invasions over the past 5000 years, Indian culture and society has been so resilient, that it has either thrown away or completely absorbed any foreign influences, with the social fabric largely remaining unchanged and intact. India emerged as modern democratic nation-state in 1947, when the subcontinental populace expelled all non-native traders in an intense movement for social reforms and forged it into a single nation, thus restoring the glory of the past Indian empires. | ” |
There is nothing wrong with the current version of the text. Here are the sentence which is seen by some as the main point of controversy
“ | Politically controlled by the British East India Company from the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain starting the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
The sentence was created by me, but based on the original version by Nichalp, someone with a lot of experience with Wikipedia featured articles; it was followed by a month's back and forth between me and Nichalp over the right language. In addition, I consulted two retired professors, both India experts at the University of Chicago, for the right neutral language. It is very import for the language to be neutral, especially in the lead. Here is an example from the Encylopaedia Britannica's lead describing the British period:
“ | Only after the arrival of the Portuguese navigator Vasco da Gama in 1498 and the subsequent establishment of European maritime supremacy did India become exposed to major external influences arriving by sea, a process that culminated in the absorption of the subcontinent within the British Empire.
Direct administration by the British, which began in 1858, effected a political and economic unification of the subcontinent, the legacy of which is found in many aspects of the current Indian state, including its parliamentary system of government. |
” |
Presumably my interlocutors will complain about the Britanicca text as well, since it doesn't use "occupation." It is they who need to read Indian history—not some Hindu right-wing partisan version, in which the heroes are Veer Sarkarkar, Netaji, Bhagat Singh, and Chandrashekhar Azad (with Gandhi thrown in grudgingly, I'm sure)—but some real history books, the kind that they read in college and graduate school. Part of the problem is that these people have been engaged in the past. Here is a classic example from December 2006. It concerned a similar insistence on their part on using the words "non-native expulsion" in describing the final fate of the British in India. We asked them very reasonably to find credible sources which use these words and provided, for our own part, searchable Indian history books on Amazon that didn't use that kind of language. After vaguely referring to NCERT books (contorversial high-school history books put out during the BJP tenure, and later retracted) the said person finally went on the internet and, hurriedly misreading Gandhi's book "Hind Swaraj," produced the fragment of a sentence from it, in support. It turned out, when I read the complete sentence, it meant exactly the opposite; in other words, Gandhi didn't think that the "physical expulsion" of the British was a sine qua non for independence. It was at that point that Nichalp said that our "interlocutors" need to be treated as trolls and blocked or the page be protected from time to time. So, as far as I am concerned, the current text is fine; it is they who need to do some rethinking, and more importantly, some learning. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
For God's sake people, occupation is not a synonym for colonization. France was occupied by the Germans during World War II, but it wasn't colonized by them. Similarly, Germany was occupied by the allies after World War II, but is generally not considered to have been colonized by them. On the other hand, colonial rule is generally not considered an occupation. Occupation generally means military rule over territory one doesn't claim sovereignty over. This is not what happened in India, and using the term is wrong. john k 07:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Without occupying one nation cannot rule another nation. Military control is the first step in taking control of a nation. When the military control is lost they lose control of that nation. That's what happened in 1947. When British has no more military control over the situation they had to leave and they left. Simple. France was occupied by Germans. How can that be when India was not occupied by the British. Was that not the Nazis were governing the French. Why this partiality? This is like saying if you kill military personnel it is freedom movement and if you kill civilians it is terrorism or when the Pentagon was attacked it was freedom struggle and when WTC was hit, it is terrorism. Chanakyathegreat 14:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, text books or no textbooks, the meaning of Non-natives means non-Indians. You seem to believe that the Britishers are Indians. Whether the Britishers stay in India as tourists or visit India, it is not an issue for Gandhiji. He was not a person who showed hatred towards others. But he wanted the governance of India to be made by Indians and not by a foreign occupying force. Chanakyathegreat 14:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
For God's sake no. You have no idea what you're talking about. France was occupied by the Germans because German control was exercised by the military. There was no civilian German administration. Occupation is a less intensive form of control than that exercised by the British in India. You clearly have no command of English usage, and I don't see why you should think you have the right to dictate usage to those of us who do. john k 06:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Occupied is not the correct term. John's defination is correct. I have no idea why colonised is not used instead. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
How about ... initially annexed by the British Raj, and later becoming a part of the British Empire...? =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain from the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
Just a food for thought in the debate, "directly administered" seems to be a very mild term, atleast to me who believes that the period of second half of 18th century to the first half of the 20th were the dark ages in Indian history. In which we have very little to show as gained and lot to show as lost.
Shashank.aggarwal
09:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and colonised by Great Britain from the mid-19th century after soliders revolt in the First Independence war, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance under the leadership of Mahatma Gandhi as a means of social protest. | ” |
-- Indianstar 14:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure what is meant by a "mild" term. "Direct admininstration" is a neutral term and it describes the way India was governed. (See British Empire, the Colonies, and India below for an extended discussion of the history behind the term.) At the risk of repeating myself, here is what the Encyclopaedia Britannica lead says:
“ | Direct administration by the British, which began in 1858, effected a political and economic unification of the subcontinent, the legacy of which is found in many aspects of the current Indian state, including its parliamentary system of government. | ” |
A number of things need to be clarified about the lead:
I think that either the current version (which is the most precise):
“ | Politically controlled by the British East India Company from the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain starting the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
or, the less precise version I last suggested, viz.
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and directly administered by Great Britain from the mid-19th century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
or, the even less precise, but more compact version:
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company starting the early 18th century and later governed as the British Raj, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
is the most accurate we can be while still being neutral; furthermore, the latter two versions hint at the use of force in the choice of the word "annexed." Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
At the picture where it says "Indian developed Agni-II ballistic missile on a mobile launcher platform during the Republic day parade 2004."
It should say "Indian-developed Agni-II ballistic missile on a mobile launcher platform during the Republic day parade 2004.", with "-" between "Indian" and "developed"
70.144.216.211 01:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Parents
sacrificing sons to be prosperous
vkvora 04:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Bharat was never a country. It was another name used by South Asians, for the subcontinent before 1947. Modern Indians call RoI Bharat. But this name doesnt have any place in an Encyclopaedia since this will lead to another huge misunderstanding, for example, someone saying India used to be South Asia. Please consider this and remove Bharat from the page. Unre4L 00:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, again you are using your own version that shows your contempt towards others and you are trying to hide the truth below a bunch of lies. Bharath existed. That's what Maha Bharath (The Great Bharath) tells us. Modern Indians call Republic of India or Bharat meaning the same nation. Just because the boundaries of the nation changed slightly, one cannot change the name itself. Chanakyathegreat 05:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide source of white horse and Mount meru. Chanakyathegreat 14:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
If you sell a small part of your property to a person who builds his own house will that make you to change the name of your house. Also Pakistan is just a temporary nation that may exist or may not exist in the future. It is based on Islam and the nation is not just Pakistan but an Islamic republic of Pakistan. If China can claim part of Tibet and especially Taiwan formed 50 or so years ago, surely India has a better right to claim Pakistan. Just because it is not done at present did not mean it cannot be made in the future, nor there is a guarantee that the so called Pakistani's themselves will not be joining India (Bharat). Chanakyathegreat 14:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
India's national anthem has the sentence "Bharata Bhagya Vidatha" ... any indian who doesn't speak english says: MERA BHARAT MAHAN / "Bharat Mata" .. the idea to remove the word BHARAT would be of complete ignorance and to ignore the true word. It is used and has been used since centuries and if it wasn't for the word "India" - India would be called "Bharat". User:sarejahan 13:44, 30 January 2007
This article is a bit confusing to me. My understanding is that this is not a very common usage compared to North American and possibly other usage which define East Indians as people who are from India as opposed to West Indians from the Carribean or Indians, which can mean either the indigenous peoples of central North America (or I suppose anyplace in the Americas except for the Arctic) OR people from India. Plus it does not have much in the way of references. Comments? Suggestions?-- Filll 04:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I concur. I believe "East Indian" is also used in Britain, where there are large numbers of both "East Indian" and "West Indian" immigrants, but I'm not certain of this. john k 06:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The article is correct. East Indians are a Catholics of Maharashtrian origin in coastal Maharashtra around Mumbai. Agreed online references aren't too many, I've pulled some out: [1], [2]. Anyways, this should be posted on the WT:INWNB =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
(This section is a continuation of the "Occupation" section above.)
Since Wikipedia proceeds by providing credible sources, it is important to examine history texts for use of "occupation" to describe the British period in India. I am providing below six standard Indian history text-books and four more advanced texts on British colonial India. I am also providing the link for the Encarta article on Indian history. All books can be searched for various words on line. I searched for "occupied," "occupation," and "British occupation." Nowhere were the words used to describe the entire British period in India. "British occupation" may have been used by the publishers in a back cover blurb, or in the copyright information, or in a quote, but never once was the expression used by the authors themselves in describing the period. Please examine the texts carefully. (In addition, I read through the long Britannica article on Indian history and the word is not used there either; however, I can't provide that link since it requires a subscription.) I now feel confident enough about the word's usage that if Chanakyathegreat and others insist on using the word in the India page lead, I will request a formal Wikipedia arbitration and put the matter to rest. Here are the sources (all searchable). I have also provided examples below them of how the words "occupied" or "occupation" were used in these texts. Finally, I also searched for "non-native" and "nonnative." The words were never used in any of the texts.
(Note: Please don't rush to the internet and post the first instance you find of "British occupation." We are talking about credible sources.)
Examples:
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
12:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
the British may have "occupied" individual places, like Bombay, Delhi, etc., but they couldn't have "occupied India" because no 'India' as a political entity existed. At best, the British occupied the [remnants of the] Mughal Empire. You can only "occupy" a political entity, you cannot "occupy" a geographical entity, you "settle" or "colonialize" it. dab (𒁳) 08:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Boundries keep changing. The USA was not what it is today, say even a 100 years back. --AJ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.145.104.148 ( talk) 09:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
Nichalp is right. The sovereign nation-state certainly came to existence in 1947. For the British raj years, the situation is described well in:
Consequently, India (representing both British India and the princely states) did make appearances internationally, e.g. as a founding member, in 1919, at the League of Nations, or, later, at the 1932 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles, when it licked the U.S. 24-1 in hockey (and the newspapers said that Indians should have played with one hand tied behind their backs or with ski boots on). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Under the Mughlals (and much befoe that too) the country was called Hindustan, which is nothing but India (English for that). The Mughal emperor always held the title Emperor of Hindustan. Lik I said before, the boundries of India might have changed over the centuries, but the term India (which came from Indus).--AJ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.145.104.148 ( talk) 17:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
AJ, Replying to your points
As is obvious from the above examples, colony is the appropriate word. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
It can be said that the current indian culture is the product of the contact between different civilisations, but it is inaccurate to state that there was an Indian culture that transcended through the ages. Sfacets 04:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have written substantially about the reasons justififying the use of 'occupation', while maintaining that colonialism is equal (in meaning) and thus acceptable (if it Satisfies a certain colonial editor). However, I would like to move away from the narrow point of discussion on a word, to the lead in general. While there is no doubt (and disagreement thus) about the existance of British rule in India, and therefore has to be mentioned, the lead may not be the appropriate place. We already have the history section for it. The reasons for this (in my opinion) are
1. The article is about India, with a 3000 year history, and the British era (rule, not as traders) was at most 190 years (as rulers, begining from bengal, to their Zenith post 1857).
2. If we mention people who ruled a part of India (as we know it today) for 190 years, we would have to mention others, (like the Mughals) who ruled a larger part of India (territorially) and for a longer period (spanning 300 years approx. begining from Emperor Babur to its Zenith with Aurangzeb, to the decline). And they are not the only examples of Pan Indian rulers.
The argument (probably) in favour of mentioning the colonial occupation might be its current relevance and the visible infulence. But even there, the immediate predecessors, the Mughals, too have a far greater infulence on present India, be it in administration, language, or culture (the colonial editor here mentioned British occupation having produced 'culture' and 'heritage', if it really did, such 'culture' and 'heritage' is far greater in magnitude, viz a viz the Mughals, or any other longer ruling enitity in India)
To conclude (what I wish to convey)
1. I do not wish to "wish away" the British infulence, or its existance. I disagree, however, with the sneaky attempt by an obviously biased editor to accord any sense of acceptability, or legitimacy to the British rule.
2. Would therefore like to have the lead worked on, to be more inclusive and less specific to a particular era. Mention the British, just like any other ruler, in the history section, in accordance with their duration (with respect to the 3000 year history of India). AJ-India 18:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Great Britain directly administered from mid 19th century???? british rule ended in india by mid 19th century and britain took control of india after the 1856 sepoy mutiny(first freedom struggle), it's very strange that people didn't notice it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Muralichoudry ( talk • contribs) 00:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC).
The history section of this page says: "As a consequence, India came under the direct control of the British Crown as a colony of the British Empire." In a general sense this is true, (although it should really say either "colony of Great Britain" or "a part of the British Empire,") however, India always had special status from 1858 onwards. For example, India was never a British crown colony as Ceylon was; nor was it a self-governing colony (or later a Dominion) like Australia or Canada were; nor yet a protectorate like Kenya and other countries in Africa. There was a Cabinet minister, the Secretary of State for India, as well as the India Office which directly ruled India. (The Viceroy of India was the head of the British administration in India; however, he reported to the Secretary of State for India, and through him to the Cabinet.) For all the other colonies, there was another Cabinet minister, called the Secretary of State for the Colonies. See for example, Conservative Government 1895-1905, or Liberal Government 1905-1915. So, in a technical sense India was never a colony; it was the Indian Empire. This was evident in the grandiloquent title of the British monarch in those days, e.g. George V:
“ | George, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions Beyond the Seas, King; Defender of the Faith; Emperor of India. | ” |
Perhaps a more accurate rewording of the sentence in the history section would be: "As a consequence, India came under the direct control of the British Crown as the Indian Empire." Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
British viewpoint. Chanakyathegreat 05:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
We can improve this article contents for better readability.(Like United States article) and I offer following suggestions.
Geography section should have two sub sections called 1) Terrain 2) Climate
History section should have subsections called 1)Pre Historic 2) Old civilizations 3) Indian
Empires(or some other appropriate sub title)4)Foreign empires
Demographics section should have subsections called 1) Languages 2) Religion 3)Education 4) Health.(I don't know whether 3 & 4 needs to fall under demographics but United states article has it under demographics)
Culture section should also have many appropriate sub titles.
Having sub section and directing users to relevant main articles.(Like Education in India) will increase viewership for other India related articles also.
Each main section should have some interesting image to create more interest to read article contents.-- Indianstar 04:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The infobox says that the GDP of India is the 3rd largest in the world but in every three lists avaible on Wikipedia show India as the 4th (after US, China and Japan). I can't fix it because the article is protected from editing. With respect, 13:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deliogul ( talk • contribs).
It is 4th and the article should show that. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 06:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Despite the fact that China occupies and administrates Tibet, there is suggestive evidence of resistance by native Tibetians for the cause of their country and to show that their government is in exhile operating in India. When viewing maps, a map has China as the border but there is also Tibet in parenthesis or in smaller print to show that Tibet is still there. Though China controls and maintains Tibet, there is still an issue here where one group says it is China and there is another group that says that it is Tibet but controlled by China. Thus, leading to a result, that since two opposing fractions have not yet resolved the issue of Tibet completley, Tibet, in some part, does share a border with in India. In the respect that the original country of Tibet has a border dispute with China and their government is still operative by some means, proving that the country is simply non-existant would show false cause. In some shape or form whether or not powerful enough to administrate that power, Tibet is still there. Tibet is culturally differenct from China and this culture is not the same as Chinese culture. At least, in some manner, maintain on the India page that Tibet, occupied by China, is there whether it would make a significant difference or not. For the people who do believe in a Free Tibet and need to study India, Tibet has a major role in the Indian page because of the mass significance in connections to India culturally, the history, the area is close in respect to India and the India page which displays its history and society has a major connection with Tibet whether or not we actually see it or feel it. Jayjrn 21:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)jayjrn
Let me first address the lead. Since the lead has to be very compact, we can't add much, but perhaps the following changes could be considered in the "bordering countries" sentence. The current version of the sentence is:
Here are two versions of a proposed change:
Much as I'd like to, I don't think it will make sense to replace Tibet Autonomous Region with Tibet; however, the former link points to the latter and all the controversy and history. I wonder what other editors think. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The second version seems that is the best that can be done along with references. Respectfully, Tibet is administrated by the PRC and we cannot say that Tibet exists today as a country according to world relations and the current status of world boundaries. But, there are always clauses and execptions whether it be it for the good or the bad. In this case, it is too little too late to actually change the status of historic Tibet dating back to the Nehru days when no protests were made. We can only watch and see what happens. This issue has been here since before my generation.
The region of Tibet controlled by the PRC is in a state flux where many human right violations are occuring. Natives of this region are stressing freedom from occupation or a self governing position with negotations still up for debate. Yet, the Tibetan culture and religion which is distinct still survives today. Since the people of Tibet cannot officialy respond to the loss of their land unlike the case with Kashmir where disputes are existant and widely known, it shouldn't be opted out because people are still protesting. Many view the intrusion as an illegal occupation and encroachment.
Yet, I believe that the India page should share a reference to Tibet whether it be through a historic, logistic, or cultural position or all of the above. Having it on the page doesn't necessarily mean that Tibet is soverign. But there is a status of native Tibet that is simply being wiped out. As long as the issue remains current not just here in wikipedia but on the global scale, the issue of the border status remains open and the conflict is yet to be determined. But all in all, the second version is the best appropriate fitting for the times.
Also, it should be noted that Askai Chin not only touches the Xinjian province but also the Tibetan Province.
Jayjrn 18:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)jayjrn
Mentioning Tibet and the fact is not recognised by individuals in Tibet opens a can of worms. The head of the Tibetan goverment in exile, the Dalai Lama has stated that he doesn't want independence from China. Now, In India groups are fighting for a separate Bodoland and Nagaland (to mention a few), and similar to the Tibetan movement, they too don't consider themselves being Indian citizens. Let's simplify this to just nation-states and not speak about the nittty-gritties in the lead? =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I've made discussions here with appropriate citations in connection with Ayyavazhi, here and Here. I've told many times that the main citation is from one of the most credible universities in India. Also the LMS Reports, Other couple of University papers etc seperately for its spread, singular nature etc... But, Backing up with the official statement (govt recognition etc...) in India, people themselves here, seem to have planned to remove Ayyavazhi from the main page (immedietly after the unblock of the page)though, I replied about the validity of the citations here many many times earlier. They there said me as 'lone-POV-rangers' . There may be very few people here to write about Ayyavazhi and it was because of the social and economical condition of Ayyavazhi. Please see here. One good example for this is, see the University book on Ayyavazhi reserch is titled as "Religion and Subaltern Agency". So it's not good to note as "lone ranger" etc. But on the other hand I was citing with University papers, rather than from newspapers or from other websites which are more affected by POVs than University reserches. Why it was not considered? Are citing with University papers a POV? If so, weather something is cited or not, if some ten people say one same thing, may it be accepted? Also Users, please see in the Talk:India/Ayyavazhi page that how many times i have repeated this same thing to a dozen of users. I've explined also many times the difference between Official recognition vs Factual existence of something, especially as per wikirules. Even though they don't understand and every day different users come with the very same issue and by which I was made to repeate what I have told earlier. So I request the users to take care in this matter.
Also one thing i like to bring to the knowedge of other wiki editors. In this very same matter I was blocked for violating 3RR. Though I asked them to comment about the edits in the talk page before reverting, none do it, but went on reverting without discussion. When I revert that, I was complined by them (some users) for violating WP:3RR.
Once more I place the citation down,
Also many other (Ayyavazhi books) citations too . But I don't cited them because they may definitly thrown away as POVs by not even considering it. Even University reserch papers are under such a large controversy here!!! - Paul 19:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The line:
"The President is the his role in governance is largely ceremonial."
Appears early in the government section. I suggest replacement with:
"The President's role in governance is largely ceremonial."
Any body may tell me about Madrash? Is it a city or village in India?-- 134.159.150.75 05:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
"The Indian constitution recognises 23 official languages." - however the source given for this statement says 22. -- Zero talk 07:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
So, erm, are you guys done duelling over occupation vs. colonialism vs. gradual annexation vs. direct administrative control :P Would be nice to unprotect it.-- Blacksun 09:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please delete the following interwikis: aa:, ab:, ak:, av:, ay:, bi:, bm:, bo:, bh:, bug:, ce:, ch:, cho:, chy:, cr:, cv:, dz:, ee:, fj:, gn:, ha:, ho:, ig:, ki:, kj:, lo:, mg:, mh:, mus:, my:, ng:, nv:, ny:, sn:, tum:, za:, dz:, ee:, iu:, xh:, zu:, ie:, xal:, rn:, kv:, pih:, or:, pi:, pap:, sg:.
And a WARNING TO ALL INDIAN NATIONALIST VANDALS: DO NOT CREATE PAGES IN WIKIPEDIAS WHERE YOU DON'T KNOW THE LANGUAGE. THEY WILL BE DELETED, THEIR INTERWIKIS REMOVED, AND YOU WILL BE BLOCKED. Whoever has been doing this, creating all these pages "India" on wikis and then just writing in English everywhere... DO you have any idea how much work you have created for us? It took me half an hour to remove your spam on wikis from aa to nv, and that's still not the end. I will clean the rest of your junk later. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.251.68.181 ( talk) 00:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
The page is protected again as the debate is not yet over and to prevent further edit warring. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
what is this Interwikis? Neechalp 18:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Following Major information about India is missing in this article
Military and Foreign relations: It should state about recent Indo-US nuclear deal,sanctions against India after nuclear test,gradual reversal of sanctions after Sep 11,2001,Improvement of foreign ties with US and recent Peace efforts with pakistan.It should also state that "India along with Germany,Japan,Brazil is requesting for UN security council permanent membership which was supported by many countries.
Economy:.It should have major export/import commodities,export/import trade values.Current Foreign reserves(which is considered as one of the important positive points of Indian economy),FII growth in recent years.
Politics: Statement which says that Indian states are dominated by Regional parties is wrong. Except Tamilnadu and some north eastern states,other states are mostly dominated by national parties. Even now, around 20 states are either ruled directly by Congress/BJP/Communists or one of these parties is a major alliance partner in the state.If you include other recognised national parties like Samajwadi party,this figure may be more.-- Indianstar 09:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Dearest AJ, Chanakyathegreat, NobleEagle, IndianStar, ShyamBihari, Sarvagnya, Saravask, Ragib, Ganeshk
This is an appeal to you all to restore the India page lead to its last version by 10:07, 21 January 2007 CambridgeBayWeather.
British vandal Fowler&fowler has been time and again incorporating highly derogatory British POV in the lead and completely destroying the balance of an Indic page. It is of utmost importance to punish this "racially inferior 3rd class British bastard writer" (henceforth RI3CBBW) Fowler&fowler (he is supposedly a local UK British professor, must be 3rd rate in UK). He is manipulating NichalP who is a very honest Indian administrator.
RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler communicates externally (chat/email) with NichalP to achieve his ways, to avoid discussion on this TalkPage, and makes NichalP revert and Lock/Protect the page with his British views. Unfortunately NichalP is very honest as shown by his behavior in the past few months. He is basically good, but needs to come out of RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler's influence through external chat/email discussions.
RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler manipulates NichalP with the technique of Lock/Protect so that his derogatory colonial writing stays for a longer duration. He manipulates NichalP to Lock/Protect after removing Indic views by saying that discussion is going on in the India TalkPage. NichalP agrees to Lock/Protect and then RI3CBBW Fowler&fowler cleverly avoids discussion on India TalkPage.
I thus appeal to you all to request "Unprotection" and restore the India page lead with Indic views. The Lock/Protection should now be Unlocked/Unprotected so that racially inferior 3rd class British bastard writer Fowler&fowler's writing may be removed.
HimalayanAshoka (Writing with the help of Licensed WikiAide Userics380005 13:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC))
To AJ (and others who are arguing for use of "occupation"), If you are that sure of your sources, why don't you and I go for a formal Wikipedia arbitration, with the loser agreeing both to donate $200 to the Wikimedia foundation and, with their cohorts, to forever hold their peace? As I mentioned in section Credible Sources and British "Occupation" of India, I feel enough confidence in my sources that I am willing to challenge anyone on the usage of the word. Again, I am saying that: A majority of credible sources (history textbooks or research monographs published by internationally recognized publishers and journal articles published in internationally recognized journals)—in describing the British presence in India during the years 1858-1947—use the terms "colony" or "Indian empire" for India and the terms "direct administration" or "direct rule," but not "occupation" for the British rule. So why don't you put your money where you mouth is and accept the arbitration. Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 20:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | Sometimes, of course, the word "occupation" is used to drive home a political point. Thus Jawaharlal Nehru in his [http://www.amazon.com/Discovery-India-Oxford-Paperbacks/dp/0195623592/ Discovery of India] uses "occupation" to describe the entire British period; but, he is a partisan in the context, which an encyclopedia cannot be, however much we may admire Nehru and his writing. | ” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 20:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is a list of Indian authors, all professional historians. The first, Harvard historian Sugata Bose, is also a grand-nephew of Netaji. All books are searchable for both "British occupation" and "colonised" or "colony." Why don't you produce a similar list of books (and not dotcom websites) that use "occupation"?
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 22:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
AJ-India 22:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Here are some more references from Indian authors, including Amartya Sen Indian Nobel laureate. All books are searchable on-line. Have a blast looking for "British occupation," and then "colonial."
Can you produce even two books written in the last 15 years by anyone that uses "occupation" for the British rule? If so, let's have them! We are waiting. As for Nehru, I was the one who provided the Discovery of India reference, not you, so please don't claim credit for it. Anyway let's have your references!! I am anxious to go through them. No websites, just history books like mine. No arguments, just the references. No Japanese colonies, Iraqi colonies, but simply "British occupation" used for British rule in India. It's time to deliver! Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
AJ-India 23:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia works by credible references. If you want to use "British occupation" you have to provide credible references that use "British occupation," not "Japanese colony." Again, provide two references (text-books, or research monographs) from the last 15 years (like I have provided for "colony" or "colonised"), textbooks that use "British occupation" for British rule. I have provided ten references (the oldest is 1993), all by Indian authors, (including a Indian Nobel laureate) that not only use "colonised," but also don't use "occupation" for British rule. If you don't proved two, you are just making excuses. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)