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A fact from Imam Reza shrine stabbings appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 3 June 2022 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
Thanks for the suggestions, but I still stand with the original hook. Your Alts are too simple I believe. The incident was apparently a move against the Sunni-Shia unity (it happened after the killing of a sunni scholar in a mosque in northern Iran). That's why Sunni scholars unanimously condemned the attack. --
Mhhosseintalk05:16, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Mhossein, I'm looking at this, and at the article--but I'm stuck already in the second sentence of the description. "A second cleric who had died" needs a lot of ... well it needs some editing.
Drmies (
talk)
01:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
New enough, verified, etc. But please note I had to make a number of edits to move the article text away from one of the sources; this is a matter of some concern.
Kelhuri, it's
this edit, and I'd like to know from
Diannaa if this warrants rev-deletion. Personally I'm inclined to say yes, though this comes pretty close to "how else are you going to say it". Diannaa,
this is the source. Anyway, that's no longer in the article, so that's good to go. With the original hook.
Drmies (
talk)
14:12, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: Hi. Takfiri has a special meaning in Iranian state media terminology. There has been
doubts cast on the motivation of the perpetrator, as well as the media coverage (the event was reported exclusively by Iranian state media). I think that should be attributed to the officials, if it is going to be in the infobox. We are not sure if that is a fact.
Pahlevun (
talk)
15:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you. According to
Al-Monitor entry used as a source, "In Iranian media usage, takfiris are extremist Sunnis who commit terrorism, specifically against Shiites" (so it is no wonder that
such cases are not considered takfirism in this terminology). I agree with you that reliable sources should be decisive and I would avoid making any arguments against the official narrative. As I said, this event has been exclusively reported by Iranian state media, which have covered it murky and framed, even refusing to mention citizenship of the murderer (whose Uzbek ethnicity was mentioned instead). I think official positions should be attributed to the officials and not asserted as facts, when the only available source is Tasnim News Agency and alike. In the context of Iranian internal issues, especially when the subject is controversial, Tasnim News Agency and similar sources are useful for being used as a source for official positions. I prefer using more-established outlets, if they are available.
Pahlevun (
talk)
15:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Pahlevun: The
Al-monitor source is correctly referring to the sectarian aspect of the Takfirism ideology.
Takfiri is the one "who accuses another Muslim of being an apostate". So, there's no difference between the definition by the Iranian media and the on offered elsewhere. The NY article has nothing to do with Takfirism (killing because of accusing others of being "morally corrupt" has no sensible linkage to apostasy accusations). Also, I believe that even if the only narrative arises from the Iranian media, there should be strong counter-narrations to mandate doing attributions. In the absence of such sources, why not referring to the main POV offered? --
Mhhosseintalk17:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein [The argument made in favor of exonerating the murderers in Kerman was that they considered the victims madhur al-Dam. Anyway,] Iranian media use the term Takfiri exclusively to refer to anti-Shia Sunnis, never vice versa. France24 used the term "
suspected jihadist" to refer to the murderer, while Iranian state media used the term jihadi for the victims. I would not favor such word preferences by any media, because they have reasons to use specific terms based on their line. So, I would prefer neutral descriptions such as 'religious motives'.
About the narratives, the murderer has confessed that he had "
personal motives" [, he lived in the same neighborhood with the three victims, and stabbed one of them 20 times. Is it a coincidence that a lone wolf terrorist attacks this weird? I'm not going to speculate. Some have mentioned killing of two Sunni clerics two days earlier
[2]. These unanswered questions are even raised by media inside Iran
[3], and Iranian government is reluctant to clarify.] Iran's Interior Minister has stated "this bitter event shows that the enemy has not ceased its efforts to spread discord... this is a blind movement crafted by Western countries". Should this be regarded the main POV offered because no Western government has reacted?
Pahlevun (
talk)
20:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I know your point but think the NYT piece is not relevant here. There's no "word preference" Pahlevun; however, I am OK with the
current version. As for the uncertainties,
this source came 1 day after the incident. Rumors always there. --
Mhhosseintalk08:23, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
this noticeboard.
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to
Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please
join the project where you can contribute to the
discussions and help with our
open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on
terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles
A fact from Imam Reza shrine stabbings appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 3 June 2022 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
Thanks for the suggestions, but I still stand with the original hook. Your Alts are too simple I believe. The incident was apparently a move against the Sunni-Shia unity (it happened after the killing of a sunni scholar in a mosque in northern Iran). That's why Sunni scholars unanimously condemned the attack. --
Mhhosseintalk05:16, 4 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Mhossein, I'm looking at this, and at the article--but I'm stuck already in the second sentence of the description. "A second cleric who had died" needs a lot of ... well it needs some editing.
Drmies (
talk)
01:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)reply
New enough, verified, etc. But please note I had to make a number of edits to move the article text away from one of the sources; this is a matter of some concern.
Kelhuri, it's
this edit, and I'd like to know from
Diannaa if this warrants rev-deletion. Personally I'm inclined to say yes, though this comes pretty close to "how else are you going to say it". Diannaa,
this is the source. Anyway, that's no longer in the article, so that's good to go. With the original hook.
Drmies (
talk)
14:12, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: Hi. Takfiri has a special meaning in Iranian state media terminology. There has been
doubts cast on the motivation of the perpetrator, as well as the media coverage (the event was reported exclusively by Iranian state media). I think that should be attributed to the officials, if it is going to be in the infobox. We are not sure if that is a fact.
Pahlevun (
talk)
15:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)reply
Thank you. According to
Al-Monitor entry used as a source, "In Iranian media usage, takfiris are extremist Sunnis who commit terrorism, specifically against Shiites" (so it is no wonder that
such cases are not considered takfirism in this terminology). I agree with you that reliable sources should be decisive and I would avoid making any arguments against the official narrative. As I said, this event has been exclusively reported by Iranian state media, which have covered it murky and framed, even refusing to mention citizenship of the murderer (whose Uzbek ethnicity was mentioned instead). I think official positions should be attributed to the officials and not asserted as facts, when the only available source is Tasnim News Agency and alike. In the context of Iranian internal issues, especially when the subject is controversial, Tasnim News Agency and similar sources are useful for being used as a source for official positions. I prefer using more-established outlets, if they are available.
Pahlevun (
talk)
15:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Pahlevun: The
Al-monitor source is correctly referring to the sectarian aspect of the Takfirism ideology.
Takfiri is the one "who accuses another Muslim of being an apostate". So, there's no difference between the definition by the Iranian media and the on offered elsewhere. The NY article has nothing to do with Takfirism (killing because of accusing others of being "morally corrupt" has no sensible linkage to apostasy accusations). Also, I believe that even if the only narrative arises from the Iranian media, there should be strong counter-narrations to mandate doing attributions. In the absence of such sources, why not referring to the main POV offered? --
Mhhosseintalk17:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein [The argument made in favor of exonerating the murderers in Kerman was that they considered the victims madhur al-Dam. Anyway,] Iranian media use the term Takfiri exclusively to refer to anti-Shia Sunnis, never vice versa. France24 used the term "
suspected jihadist" to refer to the murderer, while Iranian state media used the term jihadi for the victims. I would not favor such word preferences by any media, because they have reasons to use specific terms based on their line. So, I would prefer neutral descriptions such as 'religious motives'.
About the narratives, the murderer has confessed that he had "
personal motives" [, he lived in the same neighborhood with the three victims, and stabbed one of them 20 times. Is it a coincidence that a lone wolf terrorist attacks this weird? I'm not going to speculate. Some have mentioned killing of two Sunni clerics two days earlier
[2]. These unanswered questions are even raised by media inside Iran
[3], and Iranian government is reluctant to clarify.] Iran's Interior Minister has stated "this bitter event shows that the enemy has not ceased its efforts to spread discord... this is a blind movement crafted by Western countries". Should this be regarded the main POV offered because no Western government has reacted?
Pahlevun (
talk)
20:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I know your point but think the NYT piece is not relevant here. There's no "word preference" Pahlevun; however, I am OK with the
current version. As for the uncertainties,
this source came 1 day after the incident. Rumors always there. --
Mhhosseintalk08:23, 24 May 2022 (UTC)reply