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I am puzzled by the infobox - in what sense are the Illyrian languages considered to be not extinct. If Albanian is a language of the Illyrian family then I can accept that but the article seems to say that is is probably not, in that case Illyrian would definitely be extinct. Who can help me with this seeming paradox ? Jembana ( talk) 05:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC) Jembana ( talk) 05:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Gallipoli means (Kallí Pólis or Kallípolis) the beautiful city and there are at least two (Italy and Turkey), Galatina is probably a medieval name (byzantine) related to the personal name "Galatos" (who is effectively linked to Galazia in Asia Minor as also to Saint Paul/Saul, the local saint), Galatone is possibly the greek or illyric "galà", milk, or again the personal name "Galatos" Cunibertus ( talk) 13:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
We know that Albanian might derive from Illyrian, either anyone likes it or not, that is an existing hypotheses, so the term extinction might not look appropriate in this case. Take a look at the following scholars from different decades:
2000s' Other surviving groups are Armenian, Celtic, Illyrian (modern Albanian).. Concise Encyclopaedia of World History Author Carlos Ramirez-Faria Publisher Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 2007 ISBN 8126907754, 9788126907755 page 345
1990s' The apparent survival of (Indo-European) Illyrian as modern Albanian seems to be due partly to the Albanians' isolation... A history of the Byzantine state and society History e-book project Author Warren T. Treadgold Edition illustrated Publisher Stanford University Press, 1997 ISBN 0804726302, 9780804726306 page 921
1980s' Illyrian in the view of most scholars survives in the shape of Albanian to the present day...Greece old and new Authors Tom Winnifrith, Penelope Murray Editors Tom Winnifrith, Penelope Murray Contributor Penelope Murray Edition illustrated Publisher Macmillan, 1983 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Oct 26, 2006 ISBN 0333278364, 9780333278369 page 73 and in the other book The Vlachs: the history of a Balkan people, Volume 1987, Part 2 The Vlachs: The History of a Balkan People, T. J. Winnifrith Author Tom Winnifrith Edition 2, illustrated Publisher Duckworth, 1987 ISBN 0715621351, 9780715621356 page 60
1970s' Illyrian has survived for as long as Greek within our area. Geography has played a large part in that survival; for the mountains of Montenegro and northern Albania have supplied the almost impenetrable home base of the Illyrian-speaking peoples. They were probably the first occupants, apart from nomadic hunters, of the Accursed Mountains and their fellow peaks, and they maintained their independence when migrants such as the Slavs occupied the more fertile lowlands and the highland basins. Their language may lack the cultural qualities of Greek, but it has equalled it in its power to survive and it too is adapting itself under the name of Albanian to the conditions of the modern world...Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas Author Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond Edition illustrated Publisher Noyes Press, 1976 ISBN 0815550472, 9780815550471 page 163
1960s Albanian is undoubtedly the old native language of the Illyrians...The decline of the ancient world General history of Europe Ghe Series Author Arnold Hugh Martin Jones Publisher Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1966 page 347
thus the previous version was ok according to various scholar claims. Some see it as extinct (regardless if Albanian might be considered as its descendant), some regard Albanian as its modern representative claiming that it can not be said that Illyrian is extincted since Albania represents it nowadays(see claims above) Aigest ( talk) 14:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I think that nationalist ideology editors are much more about Greek and Latin, which are a big falsification of Churches. Albanian is a natural language that need to be studied and not to mix up with nationalist and anti-nationalist superpositions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.93.207 ( talk) 03:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
Alleged etymologies are in heavy need of references, deriving deuádai ("satyrs") from "he shakes", "to rage, seethe", "sulfur vapor", "foolish", "Dionysos", "to rage", "wild animal", "to perish, die (animals)", "to gasp" doesn't seem reasonable. Something relating to "devas", "deus" or some such would IMHO be more plausible (just an example). Each etymology needs its own reference. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 18:47, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
One possibility that leapt right out at me regarding the etymology chart was "sika" for "curved knife" - this clearly seems to be etymologically related to the English word "sickle," of whose provenance I am unclear. Could any Illyrian scholar please shed light on this example? Thanks! Kevinkeithgillette ( talk) 18:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have picked up on this one as well: What about "lougeon" as a marshy area? Again, the obvious cognate (at least IMHO), and closely related to the Latin, is the English "lagoon," or Spanish "lago"; consider the latter example with perhaps a phonotactically-constrained ending (or case marking) that gives it a distinctly Greco-Balkan look and feel. I'm not a professional linguist nor an anthropologist, so my assertions in this example may be "all wet" (please pardon the pun). Kevinkeithgillette ( talk) 18:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Removed - nonsense - Original Research
Vescleves is probably Višeslav. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.86.41 ( talk) 21:19, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I just added some infos which could be of interest and helpful to find a connection of Illyrian names and words with other Balkan languages (particularly Albanian) but they have been all deleted. Can I please know the reasons? Etimo ( talk) 21:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
You again eh, what proof do you need for a name this time? It's like requesting proof that Jürgen or Siegfried are German names, or Henry and William are English ones. All I did is to point out that many Illyrian names clearly are still present in Balkanic languages, or might be easily explained through those. It's just a theory, not a fact. I don't see why it should be deleted. Etimo ( talk) 12:28, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
It's true what you say, but Orel's work (in my experience the most quoted one on Albanian etymologies, although being not the most important) is far from complete and also contains etymologies now considered obsolete or simply incorrect (e.g. Alb.fjalë<Lat.fabula, çerdhe<South Slavic cerda etc). Besides, there is no explanation in Orel's work how he managed to connect the Albanian names with the Illyrian ones apart from his hunches, simply because there isn't a direct one. And secondly, it is impossible to assume that Orel's knowledge of Albanian language was at a native level. All we got are assumptions and hunches (unfortunately there is no Illyrian literature), but, considering the context and their meaning, the name similarities are so striking that, in my opinion, we can try a similar approach as Orels. For example, it is certainly not a long shot to relate the Thracian horse god Menzana to Alb. mëz and Rom. manz 'horse', or the water god Bindus (Lat. Fons Bandusiae) with Alb. Për-bindësh (also in Pokorny) 'mythical creature, monster'. It is quite obvious that they have the same form and meaning. I think it is plausible to try a similar approach with the other names, especially if they are preserved almost unchanged in the Balkan languages. Following the same logic as above, in my opinion, we can try to relate Illyrian names as Andis with Alb. Andi (from andë-joy, pleasure), Ballaios with Alb. Ballosh (from ballë-forehead), Bora with Alb. Bora (snow) etc.,of course, stressing that these are only assumptions. Many etymologists have done the same in the past, as much as their knowledge of the language allowed them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etimo ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Why Languages ? Illyrian was only one language.-- 92.226.43.53 ( talk) 12:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Most probably not, Illyrians had lived for a very long time but never left any written source (unless you consider Messapian as Illyrian too). A language that was mostly spoken for centuries in such a large area (from Pannonia to Albania) would inevitably split into many languages. We don't have written sources but since we know that the Illyrians were a tribal population and were invaded more than once (Greeks, Macedonians, Celts and lastly Romans), they were so divided that their original (proto-?) language must have split. ALBA-CENTAURI ( talk) 22:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
"Scholars" whose connection to linguistics is debatable are added in the list. There is a difference having a linguist making that statement, compared to having an ethnographer, enthusiast or writer of the 18th century. We should keep only linguists who support that idea. It makes a weird impression (in terms of reliability) to the reader who first reads there is too little data available and then definite statements made on a language that we simply know close to nothing about. I am not suggesting that Albanian which is spoken in the same geographic region should have no connection to Illyrian, but at this moment the article looks like a mix of texts from moderate authors and authors who are "over exhited" so to say. Fkitselis ( talk) 13:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
If the research and the findings of over 60 authors conclude that the Albanian language is a descendent of Illyrian, then I believe it is a closed debate. Since most other wiki articles are written based on only a handful of sources, in this case of abundant evidences we should simply state "The Albanian language is a descendant of the Illyrian language [sources list with over 60 references]". I understand that some Serbian and Greek nationalists might believe in theories that Albanians and Illyrians have no connection, but unfortunately the serious scientific research studies backs up the Illyrian-Albanian continuity. 95.90.207.180 ( talk) 21:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
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Ever since this article was created as an unsourced stub in 2002, it's been under the pluralized title Illyrian languages and has presented the topic as a "group of languages". This seems to have never been questioned here in talk. But I can find absolutely no sourcing for it. All the reliable sources I remember seeing seemed to be talking of Illyrian in terms of "a language". Evidently, we simply do not know whether whatever internal differentiation existed would have been sufficient to constitute a split into several "languages".
Any objections if I move the page to Illyrian language? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:51, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Illyrians were a group of heterogeneous elements, no wonder the term "Illyrians" is an exonym. Is there a source claiming that those tribes spoke a coomon language? Alexikoua ( talk) 14:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
are not sufficient to show that two clearly differentiated dialects of Illyrian were in use" (i.e. in the two main geographical divisions within Illyria he posited), there's not even clear evidence of "dialects", let alone separate languages. – Whether this posited Illyrian language was spoken by all groups that were, at one time or another, identified by the exonym "Illyrians" by some outsiders or whether they were a heterogeneous bunch that might have included speakers of other languages as you argue, is a question quite orthogonal to this and really quite irrelevant. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
U drugom tisućljeću prije n. e. na te prostore dolaze, kao što je poznato, ilirska plemena, koja - kako pokazuje njihova antroponimija na rimskim natpisima - nisu bila jezično jedinstvena.[.... Ilirian tribes..... had no common language - translation of Antidiskriminator]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:33, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
.... Illyrian tribes, whose languages-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:38, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
quote=quote=Nasuprot upravo pobrojanim narodima, koji su preuzeli etrursko pismo, a koji su govorili ilirskim jezicima....
{{
cite book}}
: Missing pipe in: |quote=
(
help)U ruskoj enciklopediji možemo pročitati sažetak onoga što ruski jezikoslovci znadu o "ilirskim jezicima". Tu možemo pročitati: Proučavanje drevne toponomastike ukazuje na ilirsko podrijetlo zemljopisnih naziva duž prostora od J-Z
... istočnojadranskog primorja i unutrašnjosti, koja se ne mogu protumačiti grčkim i latinskim jezičnim sredstvima, moguće je s prilično vjerojatnosti i po njihovu opetovanju i po njihovu razmještaju pripisati tadašnjim ilirskim jezicima kao npr.
Toponimi kao Soča (Sontius), Trst (Tergeste), Arsia (Raša), Omiš (Almissia), Kotor (Kattaros), Risan (Rizon), Ulcinj (Ulkinion), Labin (Albona), Mn (Aenona), Skradin (Scardona) itd. pripadaju paleobalkanskim najvjerojatnije ilirskim jezicima ...
odakle izilazi da je svakako dolaskom Slovena na Balkan još uvek postojao neromanizovani etnički elemenat koji je govorio keltskim i ilirskim jezicima.
Kod grč. oblika hipposAkkos ide se tako daleko te se pretpostavlja kako je posrijedi posudbenica iz nekog od ilirskih jezika.
... and link it to bauria a word for "house" in the Messapian language of Apulia, which was linked to the Illyrian languages
Illyrians were a group of heterogeneous elements, no wonder the term "Illyrians" is an exonym.Here is a source which directly supports this assertion. (Lichnofsky, Claudia; Pandelejmoni, Enriketa; Stojanov, Darko (4 December 2017). Myths and Mythical Spaces: Conditions and Challenges for History Textbooks in Albania and South-Eastern Europe. V&R unipress GmbH. p. 43. ISBN 978-3-7370-0811-2.
the term 'Illyrian' .... was probably an exonym used by either the Greeks or Romans to refer generally to a number of different tribes located all the way from Danube to the Gulf of Ambracia)
citing half-digested Google snippets out of contextsnide comment is outrageous. It is you whose position is based on the singular use in sources and it is you who insisted on finding sources that use Illyrian languages in the plural if somebody wants to contradict your pov (
There certainly are sources .... that speak of "Illyrian" in the singular as a matter of course. The burden really is on you to demonstrate that others don't). Now when I presented a long list of sources that don't speak of Illyrian in the singular but plural, you accused me for
citing half-digested Google snippets out of context.
Future Perfect at Sunrise We should not let this discussion go unresolved after a year. Should it be moved or not? As it stands Alexi never !voted but did bring forth some sources; I would disregard Antid's sources which are based in Yugoslav historiography supplemented by colorful Afrocentrism, on the other hand there are those that explicitly use the singular. One might say its a moot point because we actually have no idea what clumsy Roman "ethnographers"' referents were when they said "Illyrian", which could have been a dialect, a group of related languages, a language, a group of unrelated languages, etc -- perhaps the best and least presumptuous way to handle this would be to simply title the page Illyrian and make clear that it is a poorly understood and very likely originally rather clumsy Roman concept and not actual ethnography defined by modern scholarship (cf also "Germani" originally meaning East-Rhiners, continuing debate over "Belgae" and "Getae", etc.) -- Calthinus ( talk) 16:19, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
As it stands Alexi never !voted but did bring forth some sources; I would disregard Antid's sources which are based in Yugoslav historiography...Calthinus If you are discussing another editor on a talk page it makes sense not to do so behind that editor's back. If you really believe that people of certian ethnicity are unable to write relaible sources go to RSN and gain consensus there. Until such consensus is reached, your position: No sources no problem violates at least two pillars of wikipedia. Not to mention other policies and guidelines. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
En los Balcanes noroccidentales, donde tampoco hay un predominio cla-ro de ninguno de los dos haplogrupos, se asentaban las lenguas ilirias habla-das por una serie de tribus distintas. Los esfuerzos de muchos estudiosos del tema para establecer si el ilirio pertenecía al grupo centum o al satem han tenido como resultado la recopilación de un manojo de rasgos contradicto-rios, algunos de los cuales parecen apuntar en una dirección y otros en la contraria. En realidad no hay otro fundamento que su vecindad geográfica para suponer que todas las lenguas habladas en esa zona de los Balcanes pertenecieran a un mismo grupo dialectal.
{{
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: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) I used google translate but somebody who speaks Spanish could help what does Mr Villar say about this languages? Does he support main hypothesis All the reliable sources I remember seeing seemed to be talking of Illyrian in terms of "a language". Evidently, we simply do not know whether whatever internal differentiation existed would have been sufficient to constitute a split into several "languages".-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:07, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
I'll need a bit of time to collect the refs, but that picture is actually quite pertinent. It says "Tritos Platoros", and both "Tritos" and "Plator" are frequently mentioned as characteristically Illyrian names in the literature (and are listed as such in our article too). This particular inscription (under its catalog title "IG X Appolonia 159" [2]) is mentioned in a couple of works as a pertinent example. This kind of inscription is also quite characteristic of the type of onomastic evidence the section discusses. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:08, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I just reverted [6] edits by User:Alexikoua that inserted the statement that "Both ancient and modern authors refer to 'Illyrian' in a generic fashion to point to a variety of non-Greek languages in the broader area of western Balkans", sourced to this book source. While there is a sentence in a footnote in that book that supports something of the sort ("Note here, though, that 'Illyrian' is occasionally used as a 'cover term'…"), this statement was seriously taken out of context the way it was inserted here. It's a disclaimer added (with "though") after a whole passage that is clearly speaking of Illyrian proper in the sense of one, clearly identifiable, and single, language (e.g. by speaking of the "relationship between the two languages", i.e. between Greek and Illyrian, where it is evidently presupposed that Illyrian is one.)
I haven't yet had an opportunity to check the other source cited in those edits, the sentence that "No large-scale frequency in specific toponyms and hydronyms has been found in the Illyrian area" sourced to Georgiev. This was inserted as if to imply that there was no onomastic evidence of specifically Illyrian material at all, but that is clearly untrue – the evidence just happens to be not in toponyms and hydronyms but in anthroponyms, and those are in fact both frequent and specific. I therefore must expect that sentence was equally ripped out of context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:12, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
...there are areas where the relevant names are predominantly or only attested; thus, these names are to be considered characteristic for these regions. If other ono- mastic taxa collectively show the same mostly matching areal distribution, we may then speak of a complex “onomastic area.” (...) It must be emphasized that the identification of an onomastic area is a predominantly “aseptic” operation, which in itself, strictly speaking, does not allow a historical-comparative re- construction on an etymological basis. The fact is that one cannot state a priori that a certain onomastic area necessarily corresponds to a historically attested language and that its onomasticon belongs even partially to the etymological pool of appellatives of this language and must therefore be systematically analyzed and interpreted on such a basis. It would be thinkable, for example, that two onomastic areas cover a single language (or the reverse). The question of whether an onomastic area actually matches the area of a historical language can only be decided on an ad hoc basis from case to case using specific arguments and in numerous cases will end up remaining sub iudice.Alcaios ( talk) 10:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Illyrian languages be
renamed and moved to
Illyrian language.
result: Links:
current log •
target log
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Illyrian languages → Illyrian language – See above discussion.
As above, I couldn't find scholarly sources in English discussing these as languages in plural. However, English scholarly sources do discuss it in the singular ( "apart from the filiation links it has with the Illyrian language", "view it as a successor of the Illyrian language", "traces of the Illyrian language").
Also:
– Thjarkur (talk) 01:00, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Hellenic language doesnt come from albanian. Albanian dont have illyrian anchestors. Albanian came to the area thiusands of years later.
Albanian nationalists try to re-write history. The article needs to be removed. 2A02:587:610D:2D00:5BB:5517:5A14:FD9C ( talk) 13:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
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I am puzzled by the infobox - in what sense are the Illyrian languages considered to be not extinct. If Albanian is a language of the Illyrian family then I can accept that but the article seems to say that is is probably not, in that case Illyrian would definitely be extinct. Who can help me with this seeming paradox ? Jembana ( talk) 05:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC) Jembana ( talk) 05:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Gallipoli means (Kallí Pólis or Kallípolis) the beautiful city and there are at least two (Italy and Turkey), Galatina is probably a medieval name (byzantine) related to the personal name "Galatos" (who is effectively linked to Galazia in Asia Minor as also to Saint Paul/Saul, the local saint), Galatone is possibly the greek or illyric "galà", milk, or again the personal name "Galatos" Cunibertus ( talk) 13:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
We know that Albanian might derive from Illyrian, either anyone likes it or not, that is an existing hypotheses, so the term extinction might not look appropriate in this case. Take a look at the following scholars from different decades:
2000s' Other surviving groups are Armenian, Celtic, Illyrian (modern Albanian).. Concise Encyclopaedia of World History Author Carlos Ramirez-Faria Publisher Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 2007 ISBN 8126907754, 9788126907755 page 345
1990s' The apparent survival of (Indo-European) Illyrian as modern Albanian seems to be due partly to the Albanians' isolation... A history of the Byzantine state and society History e-book project Author Warren T. Treadgold Edition illustrated Publisher Stanford University Press, 1997 ISBN 0804726302, 9780804726306 page 921
1980s' Illyrian in the view of most scholars survives in the shape of Albanian to the present day...Greece old and new Authors Tom Winnifrith, Penelope Murray Editors Tom Winnifrith, Penelope Murray Contributor Penelope Murray Edition illustrated Publisher Macmillan, 1983 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Oct 26, 2006 ISBN 0333278364, 9780333278369 page 73 and in the other book The Vlachs: the history of a Balkan people, Volume 1987, Part 2 The Vlachs: The History of a Balkan People, T. J. Winnifrith Author Tom Winnifrith Edition 2, illustrated Publisher Duckworth, 1987 ISBN 0715621351, 9780715621356 page 60
1970s' Illyrian has survived for as long as Greek within our area. Geography has played a large part in that survival; for the mountains of Montenegro and northern Albania have supplied the almost impenetrable home base of the Illyrian-speaking peoples. They were probably the first occupants, apart from nomadic hunters, of the Accursed Mountains and their fellow peaks, and they maintained their independence when migrants such as the Slavs occupied the more fertile lowlands and the highland basins. Their language may lack the cultural qualities of Greek, but it has equalled it in its power to survive and it too is adapting itself under the name of Albanian to the conditions of the modern world...Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas Author Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond Edition illustrated Publisher Noyes Press, 1976 ISBN 0815550472, 9780815550471 page 163
1960s Albanian is undoubtedly the old native language of the Illyrians...The decline of the ancient world General history of Europe Ghe Series Author Arnold Hugh Martin Jones Publisher Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1966 page 347
thus the previous version was ok according to various scholar claims. Some see it as extinct (regardless if Albanian might be considered as its descendant), some regard Albanian as its modern representative claiming that it can not be said that Illyrian is extincted since Albania represents it nowadays(see claims above) Aigest ( talk) 14:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I think that nationalist ideology editors are much more about Greek and Latin, which are a big falsification of Churches. Albanian is a natural language that need to be studied and not to mix up with nationalist and anti-nationalist superpositions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.93.207 ( talk) 03:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
Alleged etymologies are in heavy need of references, deriving deuádai ("satyrs") from "he shakes", "to rage, seethe", "sulfur vapor", "foolish", "Dionysos", "to rage", "wild animal", "to perish, die (animals)", "to gasp" doesn't seem reasonable. Something relating to "devas", "deus" or some such would IMHO be more plausible (just an example). Each etymology needs its own reference. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 18:47, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
One possibility that leapt right out at me regarding the etymology chart was "sika" for "curved knife" - this clearly seems to be etymologically related to the English word "sickle," of whose provenance I am unclear. Could any Illyrian scholar please shed light on this example? Thanks! Kevinkeithgillette ( talk) 18:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have picked up on this one as well: What about "lougeon" as a marshy area? Again, the obvious cognate (at least IMHO), and closely related to the Latin, is the English "lagoon," or Spanish "lago"; consider the latter example with perhaps a phonotactically-constrained ending (or case marking) that gives it a distinctly Greco-Balkan look and feel. I'm not a professional linguist nor an anthropologist, so my assertions in this example may be "all wet" (please pardon the pun). Kevinkeithgillette ( talk) 18:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Removed - nonsense - Original Research
Vescleves is probably Višeslav. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.86.41 ( talk) 21:19, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I just added some infos which could be of interest and helpful to find a connection of Illyrian names and words with other Balkan languages (particularly Albanian) but they have been all deleted. Can I please know the reasons? Etimo ( talk) 21:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
You again eh, what proof do you need for a name this time? It's like requesting proof that Jürgen or Siegfried are German names, or Henry and William are English ones. All I did is to point out that many Illyrian names clearly are still present in Balkanic languages, or might be easily explained through those. It's just a theory, not a fact. I don't see why it should be deleted. Etimo ( talk) 12:28, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
It's true what you say, but Orel's work (in my experience the most quoted one on Albanian etymologies, although being not the most important) is far from complete and also contains etymologies now considered obsolete or simply incorrect (e.g. Alb.fjalë<Lat.fabula, çerdhe<South Slavic cerda etc). Besides, there is no explanation in Orel's work how he managed to connect the Albanian names with the Illyrian ones apart from his hunches, simply because there isn't a direct one. And secondly, it is impossible to assume that Orel's knowledge of Albanian language was at a native level. All we got are assumptions and hunches (unfortunately there is no Illyrian literature), but, considering the context and their meaning, the name similarities are so striking that, in my opinion, we can try a similar approach as Orels. For example, it is certainly not a long shot to relate the Thracian horse god Menzana to Alb. mëz and Rom. manz 'horse', or the water god Bindus (Lat. Fons Bandusiae) with Alb. Për-bindësh (also in Pokorny) 'mythical creature, monster'. It is quite obvious that they have the same form and meaning. I think it is plausible to try a similar approach with the other names, especially if they are preserved almost unchanged in the Balkan languages. Following the same logic as above, in my opinion, we can try to relate Illyrian names as Andis with Alb. Andi (from andë-joy, pleasure), Ballaios with Alb. Ballosh (from ballë-forehead), Bora with Alb. Bora (snow) etc.,of course, stressing that these are only assumptions. Many etymologists have done the same in the past, as much as their knowledge of the language allowed them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etimo ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Why Languages ? Illyrian was only one language.-- 92.226.43.53 ( talk) 12:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Most probably not, Illyrians had lived for a very long time but never left any written source (unless you consider Messapian as Illyrian too). A language that was mostly spoken for centuries in such a large area (from Pannonia to Albania) would inevitably split into many languages. We don't have written sources but since we know that the Illyrians were a tribal population and were invaded more than once (Greeks, Macedonians, Celts and lastly Romans), they were so divided that their original (proto-?) language must have split. ALBA-CENTAURI ( talk) 22:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
"Scholars" whose connection to linguistics is debatable are added in the list. There is a difference having a linguist making that statement, compared to having an ethnographer, enthusiast or writer of the 18th century. We should keep only linguists who support that idea. It makes a weird impression (in terms of reliability) to the reader who first reads there is too little data available and then definite statements made on a language that we simply know close to nothing about. I am not suggesting that Albanian which is spoken in the same geographic region should have no connection to Illyrian, but at this moment the article looks like a mix of texts from moderate authors and authors who are "over exhited" so to say. Fkitselis ( talk) 13:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
If the research and the findings of over 60 authors conclude that the Albanian language is a descendent of Illyrian, then I believe it is a closed debate. Since most other wiki articles are written based on only a handful of sources, in this case of abundant evidences we should simply state "The Albanian language is a descendant of the Illyrian language [sources list with over 60 references]". I understand that some Serbian and Greek nationalists might believe in theories that Albanians and Illyrians have no connection, but unfortunately the serious scientific research studies backs up the Illyrian-Albanian continuity. 95.90.207.180 ( talk) 21:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
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Ever since this article was created as an unsourced stub in 2002, it's been under the pluralized title Illyrian languages and has presented the topic as a "group of languages". This seems to have never been questioned here in talk. But I can find absolutely no sourcing for it. All the reliable sources I remember seeing seemed to be talking of Illyrian in terms of "a language". Evidently, we simply do not know whether whatever internal differentiation existed would have been sufficient to constitute a split into several "languages".
Any objections if I move the page to Illyrian language? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:51, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Illyrians were a group of heterogeneous elements, no wonder the term "Illyrians" is an exonym. Is there a source claiming that those tribes spoke a coomon language? Alexikoua ( talk) 14:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
are not sufficient to show that two clearly differentiated dialects of Illyrian were in use" (i.e. in the two main geographical divisions within Illyria he posited), there's not even clear evidence of "dialects", let alone separate languages. – Whether this posited Illyrian language was spoken by all groups that were, at one time or another, identified by the exonym "Illyrians" by some outsiders or whether they were a heterogeneous bunch that might have included speakers of other languages as you argue, is a question quite orthogonal to this and really quite irrelevant. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
U drugom tisućljeću prije n. e. na te prostore dolaze, kao što je poznato, ilirska plemena, koja - kako pokazuje njihova antroponimija na rimskim natpisima - nisu bila jezično jedinstvena.[.... Ilirian tribes..... had no common language - translation of Antidiskriminator]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:33, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
.... Illyrian tribes, whose languages-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:38, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
quote=quote=Nasuprot upravo pobrojanim narodima, koji su preuzeli etrursko pismo, a koji su govorili ilirskim jezicima....
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help)U ruskoj enciklopediji možemo pročitati sažetak onoga što ruski jezikoslovci znadu o "ilirskim jezicima". Tu možemo pročitati: Proučavanje drevne toponomastike ukazuje na ilirsko podrijetlo zemljopisnih naziva duž prostora od J-Z
... istočnojadranskog primorja i unutrašnjosti, koja se ne mogu protumačiti grčkim i latinskim jezičnim sredstvima, moguće je s prilično vjerojatnosti i po njihovu opetovanju i po njihovu razmještaju pripisati tadašnjim ilirskim jezicima kao npr.
Toponimi kao Soča (Sontius), Trst (Tergeste), Arsia (Raša), Omiš (Almissia), Kotor (Kattaros), Risan (Rizon), Ulcinj (Ulkinion), Labin (Albona), Mn (Aenona), Skradin (Scardona) itd. pripadaju paleobalkanskim najvjerojatnije ilirskim jezicima ...
odakle izilazi da je svakako dolaskom Slovena na Balkan još uvek postojao neromanizovani etnički elemenat koji je govorio keltskim i ilirskim jezicima.
Kod grč. oblika hipposAkkos ide se tako daleko te se pretpostavlja kako je posrijedi posudbenica iz nekog od ilirskih jezika.
... and link it to bauria a word for "house" in the Messapian language of Apulia, which was linked to the Illyrian languages
Illyrians were a group of heterogeneous elements, no wonder the term "Illyrians" is an exonym.Here is a source which directly supports this assertion. (Lichnofsky, Claudia; Pandelejmoni, Enriketa; Stojanov, Darko (4 December 2017). Myths and Mythical Spaces: Conditions and Challenges for History Textbooks in Albania and South-Eastern Europe. V&R unipress GmbH. p. 43. ISBN 978-3-7370-0811-2.
the term 'Illyrian' .... was probably an exonym used by either the Greeks or Romans to refer generally to a number of different tribes located all the way from Danube to the Gulf of Ambracia)
citing half-digested Google snippets out of contextsnide comment is outrageous. It is you whose position is based on the singular use in sources and it is you who insisted on finding sources that use Illyrian languages in the plural if somebody wants to contradict your pov (
There certainly are sources .... that speak of "Illyrian" in the singular as a matter of course. The burden really is on you to demonstrate that others don't). Now when I presented a long list of sources that don't speak of Illyrian in the singular but plural, you accused me for
citing half-digested Google snippets out of context.
Future Perfect at Sunrise We should not let this discussion go unresolved after a year. Should it be moved or not? As it stands Alexi never !voted but did bring forth some sources; I would disregard Antid's sources which are based in Yugoslav historiography supplemented by colorful Afrocentrism, on the other hand there are those that explicitly use the singular. One might say its a moot point because we actually have no idea what clumsy Roman "ethnographers"' referents were when they said "Illyrian", which could have been a dialect, a group of related languages, a language, a group of unrelated languages, etc -- perhaps the best and least presumptuous way to handle this would be to simply title the page Illyrian and make clear that it is a poorly understood and very likely originally rather clumsy Roman concept and not actual ethnography defined by modern scholarship (cf also "Germani" originally meaning East-Rhiners, continuing debate over "Belgae" and "Getae", etc.) -- Calthinus ( talk) 16:19, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
As it stands Alexi never !voted but did bring forth some sources; I would disregard Antid's sources which are based in Yugoslav historiography...Calthinus If you are discussing another editor on a talk page it makes sense not to do so behind that editor's back. If you really believe that people of certian ethnicity are unable to write relaible sources go to RSN and gain consensus there. Until such consensus is reached, your position: No sources no problem violates at least two pillars of wikipedia. Not to mention other policies and guidelines. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
En los Balcanes noroccidentales, donde tampoco hay un predominio cla-ro de ninguno de los dos haplogrupos, se asentaban las lenguas ilirias habla-das por una serie de tribus distintas. Los esfuerzos de muchos estudiosos del tema para establecer si el ilirio pertenecía al grupo centum o al satem han tenido como resultado la recopilación de un manojo de rasgos contradicto-rios, algunos de los cuales parecen apuntar en una dirección y otros en la contraria. En realidad no hay otro fundamento que su vecindad geográfica para suponer que todas las lenguas habladas en esa zona de los Balcanes pertenecieran a un mismo grupo dialectal.
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help) I used google translate but somebody who speaks Spanish could help what does Mr Villar say about this languages? Does he support main hypothesis All the reliable sources I remember seeing seemed to be talking of Illyrian in terms of "a language". Evidently, we simply do not know whether whatever internal differentiation existed would have been sufficient to constitute a split into several "languages".-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:07, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
I'll need a bit of time to collect the refs, but that picture is actually quite pertinent. It says "Tritos Platoros", and both "Tritos" and "Plator" are frequently mentioned as characteristically Illyrian names in the literature (and are listed as such in our article too). This particular inscription (under its catalog title "IG X Appolonia 159" [2]) is mentioned in a couple of works as a pertinent example. This kind of inscription is also quite characteristic of the type of onomastic evidence the section discusses. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:08, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
I just reverted [6] edits by User:Alexikoua that inserted the statement that "Both ancient and modern authors refer to 'Illyrian' in a generic fashion to point to a variety of non-Greek languages in the broader area of western Balkans", sourced to this book source. While there is a sentence in a footnote in that book that supports something of the sort ("Note here, though, that 'Illyrian' is occasionally used as a 'cover term'…"), this statement was seriously taken out of context the way it was inserted here. It's a disclaimer added (with "though") after a whole passage that is clearly speaking of Illyrian proper in the sense of one, clearly identifiable, and single, language (e.g. by speaking of the "relationship between the two languages", i.e. between Greek and Illyrian, where it is evidently presupposed that Illyrian is one.)
I haven't yet had an opportunity to check the other source cited in those edits, the sentence that "No large-scale frequency in specific toponyms and hydronyms has been found in the Illyrian area" sourced to Georgiev. This was inserted as if to imply that there was no onomastic evidence of specifically Illyrian material at all, but that is clearly untrue – the evidence just happens to be not in toponyms and hydronyms but in anthroponyms, and those are in fact both frequent and specific. I therefore must expect that sentence was equally ripped out of context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:12, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
...there are areas where the relevant names are predominantly or only attested; thus, these names are to be considered characteristic for these regions. If other ono- mastic taxa collectively show the same mostly matching areal distribution, we may then speak of a complex “onomastic area.” (...) It must be emphasized that the identification of an onomastic area is a predominantly “aseptic” operation, which in itself, strictly speaking, does not allow a historical-comparative re- construction on an etymological basis. The fact is that one cannot state a priori that a certain onomastic area necessarily corresponds to a historically attested language and that its onomasticon belongs even partially to the etymological pool of appellatives of this language and must therefore be systematically analyzed and interpreted on such a basis. It would be thinkable, for example, that two onomastic areas cover a single language (or the reverse). The question of whether an onomastic area actually matches the area of a historical language can only be decided on an ad hoc basis from case to case using specific arguments and in numerous cases will end up remaining sub iudice.Alcaios ( talk) 10:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Illyrian languages be
renamed and moved to
Illyrian language.
result: Links:
current log •
target log
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Illyrian languages → Illyrian language – See above discussion.
As above, I couldn't find scholarly sources in English discussing these as languages in plural. However, English scholarly sources do discuss it in the singular ( "apart from the filiation links it has with the Illyrian language", "view it as a successor of the Illyrian language", "traces of the Illyrian language").
Also:
– Thjarkur (talk) 01:00, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Hellenic language doesnt come from albanian. Albanian dont have illyrian anchestors. Albanian came to the area thiusands of years later.
Albanian nationalists try to re-write history. The article needs to be removed. 2A02:587:610D:2D00:5BB:5517:5A14:FD9C ( talk) 13:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)