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the goethe and herder information, i think, has been extracted from illuminatus! trilogy, by robert anton wilson, though some of the information in the trilogy is delbrately false or skewed (or sometimes even pretending to be false when in fact not) i think this information is fairly accurate, robert anton wilson rarely if ever cited his references even when he had come across something he thought to be pretty historically accurate (he usually left the citations out for people who like a challenge, maybe this is why he is not generally held to be a scholar- that and his deliberate falsifacations; left as traps for the lazy).
While this article is referenced, without any inline citations or text attributions it is impossible to know which statements are backed by which sources. This is especially true in the case of some of the more "controvercial" statements and quotes. For example: there is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that simply crys out for a direct citation to where he said it, or at least to a book that claims he said it. To highlight the issue, I am going to "mess up" the article by placing a citation request tag where I think a direct citation is needed. I will probably get a few people screaming at me that I have overdone it... and if so, I appoligize ahead of time. I realize that this makes the article look ugly... but I am doing this in good faith to highlight what I see as a serious problem with this article. Blueboar 22:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
If I have learned anything on Wikipedia, it is that fact tags and demands for references are the telltale signs that there are serious attempts to suppress the truth by those who place those tags, who are typically characterized by remaining anonymous. By anonymous, I also include Wiki names because you can't tell who they really are without access to the inner workings of Wikipedia.-- 216.167.225.56 20:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I have Jewish blood from my parentage, so you may say I am not objective, but please be objective to consider this. Our world is full of selfish people to achieve their own ends. If a list of all powerful people [still alive] can be drawn up, why should they cooperate with each other or be related with one another? How can there be conspiracy among them?
Just like Adolf Hitler blamed the Jews for everything [as if the Jews at that time were so powerful to control German economy] the German suffered, Illuminati is a concept used by different people for different ends. Maybe to discriminate against / blame leaders, or the rich, or government, or to unite people for an uprising. Illuminati is a fabrication created for human beings' selfish purposes and it does not objectively exist.
23/08/07 - Alex I am not saying for one moment that I am an expert on the Illuminati,however I have just finished writing a paper for my PHD on them. I went away from the usual references and started from scratch. I had doubts before I started about the time frames. I found references in symbol form that the illuminati or the idea there of date back to 1600's. Now then for the interesting twist, I also read some fiction novels on the subject namely Dan Brown's angels and demons. I wrote to the publisher to find out if there was any fact in the book and they said alot of the information came from various sources and not all of it is fiction. So I started investigating certain pieces of information. It is indeed true that a group of scientists in the 1600's did start a free thinking society that was heavy criticised by the Vatican. They were known as the 'Enlightened Ones'. The So called Bavarian Illuminati was actually a trade union of sorts and has more links to the Masons than the Illuminati. If you visit Ingolstadt you will find in the city museum alot of their early records. People will rave on about the Illuminati for years and it is very easy to speculate in the modern day that the Oil, Industry and Political cartels are trying to form a new world order and therefore are the Illuminati, let us not forget the Bilderbergs and the Rothchilds. If they really exsist today then they are not getting very far with their plans. As Gavin mentioned below those authors have written some fantastic books on the history side of things, however my only concern is that there maybe a certain poetic licence at work to make the books sellable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.64.197.117 ( talk) 08:42, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
Well, as raised before, there are no references here anywhere despite extraordinary claims. This article needs some serious work. Gavin Scott 14:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
yup —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.177.204 ( talk) 17:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Should this article be split into Bavarian Illuminati and Illuminati (conspiracy)? This would make it easier to deal with the two very separate issues. One is factual and definite sources of it agree and another is as stated a conspiracy which is harder to cite reliable references for. Besides, they are two separate organizations. Thoughts? Gavin Scott 08:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
My thoughts exactly! I think thats the best way. Gavin Scott 13:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Modern Incarnations of the Bavarian Illuminati would be included in the Bavarian Illuminati article surely? Like modern antipopes are listed in the Antipope article. There is no need for three articles, only two. Gavin Scott 15:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Guy below me is depressed.... yeah and the Illuminati Conspiracy is a sidetrack anyways. If they had that much power, would any of us truly understand it?! Go to "Ancient times" and study the cultures, try to have at least a layman's understanding of ancient language, let alone foreign. It's not about Alex Jones, or anything in Texas. It's about the past. The sands of time. Check out "Bilderberg Group" you'd be interested in that. The Illuminati was an ancient group of Graeco-Roman politicians that were initiated into the Egyptain's panther society. Plato, Aristotle, and many others have written something about it... look it up. Oh, and if you have any real interest in satire, read Arbiter Petronius' "Satyricon." Good read... a little homo... not a big deal. they all were back then. "morte devs. omni vis volo lavde."- something to think about.
I've, for the second time now, neutralized a non-NPOV statement which was pretending that the question about the Bavarian Illuminati being "freethinkers" from the "enlightenment" had been completely settled to all the world's satisfaction. I found and included both a reference for those claiming such and a reference for those claiming that it was instead a conspiracy to infiltrate and overthrow governments, so readers could look up both sides of the story and decide for themselves, rather than us bullying their minds by making that decision for them. I invite Taroaldo to comment here, if he/she disagrees. Yosemite1967 05:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Given the existence of the Illuminatus Trilogy, I don't see why there's any controversy about this edit.-- SarekOfVulcan 14:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
That just doesnt make sense, that was a book series, it isn't in any way associated with the historical illuminati. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.98.19 ( talk) 00:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was the John Robinson reference removed? It may merit its dismissal as "loony stuff" but his book was the first English speaking work that talked about the Illuminati and so should have been kept (even if a link to the text has been left in). I don't know any of the other titles (and I saw Lulu - so I would not be surprised if these texts were less worthy of inclusion than Robinson), but surely references should not simply be taken out in a blanket motion with the minimum of explanation.
JASpencer ( talk) 22:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
"whether or not ceased to be headform not applicable to this article on wikipedia" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edictorwikicentral ( talk • contribs) 00:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Gabriel Rojas is no longer the head of his Illuminati Order. He resigned November of 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.137.68.67 ( talk) 03:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
"OTO, Reuss and Crowley has nothing to do with Bavarian Illuminati. Used only inappropriately the name illuminati to their personal ideas. Pigs." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edictorwikicentral ( talk • contribs) 00:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
NOTA PÚBLICA:
1 DE NOVIEMBRE DE 2006 A principios de octubre de 2006, decidí entrar en "sueños", es decir, en inactividad esotérica, dejando la responsabilidad de afiliar y transmitir grados de iniciación momentáneamente a los Cabezas Nacionales de la Orden Illuminati y la Societas OTO.
En 1 noviembre de 2006, me retiro definitivamente de las órdenes Orden Illuminati y Societas OTO y nombro un Supremo Consejo compuesto por un triunvirato como responsable internacional de la Orden Illuminati y la Societas OTO, único organismo desde esta fecha con responsabilidad de afiliar y transmitir grados.
Además, hago público que me desvinculo por completo de todas las órdenes esotéricas (masónicas, rosacruces, templarias, illuminati...), renegando del idealismo esotérico e iniciático de las mismas, ya que, para mí, en estos momentos, limita la voluntad y la razón y genera sectarismo y manipulación, sobretodo al estar unido a estructuras que sobredimensionan los riesgos.
El Sistema de iniciación que creé para la Orden Illuminati y la Societas OTO, el Rojismo, evoluciona del idealismo al materialismo, pero está demasiado próximo al idealismo y no siempre es bien comprendido, tanto por iniciados como por profanos.
Deseo aprovechar esta nota para desmentir las difamaciones que varios conspiranoicos y agentes o colaboradores de la Central Nacional de Inteligencia (servicio de inteligencia español) que se hacen pasar por iniciados, escritores e investigadores antisectas, han vertido contra nosotros en la Red, durante los últimos años. Jamás hemos conspirado, ni realizado nada ilegal. La única ilegalidad que cometimos fue un problema de amenazas a una revista con colaboradores nazis en 1999 que nos supuso una multa y punto. A partir de ahí, lo demás es pura mentira y difamación.
Atentamente,
Gabriel Lopez de Rojas
Rough Translation
PUBLIC NOTE:
1 OF NOVEMBER OF 2006 At the beginning of October of 2006, I decided to enter "dreams", that is to say, in esoteric inactivity, letting the responsibility to momentarily affiliate and transmit degrees of initiation to the National Heads of the Illuminati Order and Societas OTO.
On 1 November of 2006, I definitively retire from the orders Illuminati and Societas OTO and name a triunvirate like an international personage in charge of the Illuminati Order and Societas OTO, the only organism from this date with responsibility to affiliate and to transmit degrees.
In addition, I make public that I break contact myself completely with all the esoteric orders (masons, rosacrucians, templars, illuminati, etc.), apostatizing of the esoteric idealism and initiations of the same, at the moment, it limits the will, reason, and generates sectarianism and manipulation, amongst us all when united.
The System of initiation that I created for the Illuminati Order and Societas OTO, the Rojismo, evolved of the idealism to materialism, but this is next to the idealism and not always included or understood, as much by initiates or by the profane.
The desire to take advantage of this note to deny the defamations that several conspiracists and agents or collaborators of the National Power station of Intelligence (Spanish intelligence service) that has happened through initiates, writers and investigators, have spilled against us in the Network, during the few last years. We have never conspired, nor made nothing illegal. The only illegality that we committed were threats to a magazine with Nazi collaborators in 1999. From there, the others are pure lie and defamation.
Kindly,
Gabriel Lopez de Rojas
And even if you want to say well he just founded it, im giving you the information to expand as the section is about the illuminati after 1790.
ANYONE CAN EDIT OR ENTER ANY OR ALL INFOMATION INTO WIKI, REGARDLESS OF IT'S ACCURACY. THE "PROOF" IS IN THIS VERY POSTING...DOLTS!
Thank You,
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 14:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Not sure at all what you are asking... Could you rephrase please? Blueboar ( talk) 02:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
We seem to have quite a few references... and yet every third sentence remains tagged with a citation request! Surely we can substatiate at least some of the information with inline citations. I can do some of it based on the online refs (the BC&Y page for example)... but I don't have access to the printed material. We need to fix this... the article has been tagged for several months now. Blueboar ( talk) 03:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
falses orders, falses illuminati, end to marketing ( Edictorwikicentral ( talk) 13:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)).
Continue marketing in wikipedia? ( Edictorwikicentral ( talk) 22:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC))
Quality--this article really doesnt meet the same quality standards that other wikipedia articles do. I dont know who is in charge of it, but someone should take this article serious and explain the different facts and fiction around the illuminati. I am no expert. Lucrenta ( talk) 04:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)lucrenta
FALSE, LIES ARTICLE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.30.114.209 ( talk) 21:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I tried adding a link to the page: www.truthcontrol.com/conspiracies/illuminati as I feel it adds information to this topic that can not be found in the current article. It also includes links to videos about the illuminati. Just my thoughts.
Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slayerment ( talk • contribs) 07:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this article is missing the psychiatric point of view, such as the one pointed out by http://illuminated.tripod.com
It highlights Rodney St.Michael's book, Illuminati: Healing and Developing the Mind. The illuminati is not a single organization, but a generic word for individuals or organizations, independant from each other; not a single unified entity, but having a related or similar mindset, characteristic of the ancient Asian Buddhas, which is the sansrkit word for Enlightened One, and typifies a quest to cure schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, not just in the self, but also in the macro sense, in a schizoaffective universe.
The mindset evolved in Europe's Enlightenment era and was developed by various individuals and groups. The mindset influenced the formation of different governments around the world, but did not necessarily have direct control.
Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder has been around for thousands of years, and it will naturally continue to exist with the human race perpetually. The mindset to cure it, the Illuminati, will, of course, be around as a result of it.
Rodney St.Michael's books are viewable for free at books.google.com or at his website.
Colourfulglobe ( talk) 11:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that the fact that you replied a few seconds after the previous msg was posted clearly points to the fact that u are not neutral urself. U haven't even read it and judged it immediately. Just because something is free, specially a tripod site, doesn't mean it's unreliable. Money doesn't create reliability nor neutrality.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.55.146.150 ( talk • contribs)
That would make wikipedia biased then. Bill Gates has a lot of money and can create Encarta. Neutrality points to an open mind. Wikipedia should follow an open mind and not be biased against free sites, freethinking and the freeworld. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.55.146.150 ( talk) 12:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, thanks. Not many people trust Bill Gates. Nothing is perfect in this world, even neutrality and trustworthiness. Wikipedia may be biased, but at least you have a good discussion area. And very quick responses! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.55.146.150 ( talk) 12:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
My 2 cents: I agree that Tripod sites are certainly not viable as sources. It would be comparable to getting the evening news from Myspace blogs. Back to the point, I agree with the original post that the Illuminati is not any one identifiable group or entity. This can obviously be seen, even from the wiki article. Although, I am quickly lost by the idea that the "Illuminati mindset" is going to cure bipolar disorder? As an educated psychologist myself, I am open to the idea of expanding the article to include some psychological or psychiatric aspects of the Illuminati, but I'm sure we can all agree with Equazcion that fringe theories should be kept out of Wikipedia. Jonathanbaker1 ( talk) 18:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your insights. One of wikipedia's references is the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. And I think the free online version of it, the “Classic Encyclopedia” gives a better definition of what the Illuminati is. (See http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Illuminati)
It is defined as a label or designation used much earlier than the 1700s ”applied to, or assumed by, enthusiasts of types distinct from each other, according as the 'light' claimed was viewed as directly communicated from a higher source, or as due to a clarified and exalted condition of the human intelligence. “
This 'light' or mindset is classified into 2. One is spiritual, like talking directly to the 'voice of God' and the other is rational, seeing the mind as God. The article then gives an example of each class. For the spiritual type, the Alumbrados is cited. For the rational-spiritual type, the Rosicrucians. As it says, “Of different class were the so-called Illuminati, better known as Rosicrucians, who claimed to originate in 1422, but rose into notice in 1537”.
It barely mentions the Perfektibilisten (Bavarian Illuminati), who were also labeled “illuminati” by the public since the emphasis of the article is on the label instead of its use as a proper noun.
Even the 2002 (and perhaps higher) Encyclopedia Britannica uses “illuminati” as a label as far back as the 2nd century CE when referring to the group of Montanus:
"Before his (Montanus) conversion to Christianity, he apparently was a priest of the Oriental ecstatic cult of Cybele, the mother goddess of fertility."
"Montanus became the leader of a group of illuminati ('the enlightened'), including the prophetesses Priscilla (or Prisca) and Maximilla. The members exhibited the frenzied nature of their religious experience by enraptured seizures and utterances of strange languages that the disciples regarded as oracles of the Holy Spirit."
This type of 'light' or 'mindset' or 'direct communication with God' by hearing his 'voice' is called today as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or schizoaffective disorder. Although at that time, it was not called that way.
The renowned psychiatrist who specializes in schizophrenia described it in Discover magazine as a condition where a person hears "voices that command you to kill yourself, voices from outer space, two voices carrying on a conversation, even the voice of God."
For the rational type of Illuminati, the 'mindset' is described better by Buddhists, who think that the mind is God and whose goal is to attain Enlightenment.
I think the disambiguation portion of the article will be made clearer if the illuminati is not described as a proper noun but more emphasized as a label for people who carry this schizophrenic mindset. Notice for example in the comic books, Marvel describes it as good like the United Nations for superheroes. But DC comics and Disney describes it as evil. The bipolar characteristic of the illuminati is more visible when the Britannica's definition is used.
Politically today, China views the Dalai Lama as evil, while the U.S. Congress good. Adam W. may be viewed by Americans as evil but perhaps good for the Chinese. Maybe people will understand why if the illuminati is defined by Wiki in the same way as the Britannica.
Thanks for your help! Colourfulglobe ( talk) 12:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello again. The connection between the 2 is pointed out in Rodney St.Michael's books, including Illuminati: Healing and Developing the Mind, specially in Chapter 10, found in books.google.com as I mentioned in my original post. It's also found in his author blog at his website http://illuminated.tripod.com but as you said, tripod is not allowed. It is his original research however. Anyway, thanks for your time. I know you guys are busy and I must've consumed too much of your time already and it is quite embarrassing for me since you are not paid for this kind of work and yet you serve your customers so well. I wish banks had similar customer service! Anywayz, I'm dropping my complaint since I'm a bit busy with work too. At least wiki has an article on the illuminati. Encarta doesn't even have it at all! Again, thanks for your time! :) Colourfulglobe ( talk) 11:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel the current version of the Illuminati Conspiracy section is adequate, but not good enough. As in modern times most people consider the Illuminati to mean some sort of secret organization plotting to take over the globe it should be given more coverage in this article. Even though this modern Illuminati is probably rubbish thats not for us to decide- it should be given fair coverage...it does have quite a following after all. Also, this Illuminati is represented by the Eye Of Providence so it seems fair to include a picture of it- just for aesthetic tastes perhaps but it certainly contributes to the article. Gavin Scott ( talk) 09:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello again! I'm back with some free time, and the latest version of your illuminati article has improved, I must say. :)
But I just noticed that it is missing Lara Croft's movie under the section of fictional illuminati. Lara discovered that her father, Lord Croft, was an illuminatus, and she had to travel to Cambodia and Siberia to retrieve 2 split halves of the "Triangle of Light" or Illuminati Triangle and mend it together to save a life.
There's a wiki article about it: Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
-- Colourfulglobe ( talk) 14:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for the keys and the go signal. :) -- Colourfulglobe ( talk) 16:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello! References for video games, such as Deus Ex were removed with the reason "removed various games... by fictional we mean works of fiction (books, TV shows, movies, etc.)". I don't agree with this. The storyline of the mentioned game is as complicated and rich as the other mentioned pieces of arts. So imhomo, Deus Ex should be also considered as a work of art. If even comics can go, games why not? Please read after my points and tell me your pros and contras. -- MegaBrutal ( talk) 09:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I understand your points. If we listed all works that mentions Illuminati, the fictional arts section would be much longer than the other parts of the article. But Illuminati (Deus Ex) has a key role in the game, so I still think that it has relevance here. So... may I re-add it? -- MegaBrutal ( talk) 23:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
There was a code to see her naked. Yeah I beat the whole game with the cheat in, and took a break in between levels. hahaha.
Where did they come from? Why have they had such an influence on our opinions on what is true and what is false? You may find your peers arguing points of 9/11 or Prescott Bush with the Union Banking money laundering scheme that ended in Operations Paper-clip. That all depends on who you see your peers as.
To find the start of any secret society, we must find the roots. Lets be safe and start with Christ's death, for this "Illuminati" must see something spiritual that we may not. The timeline of the period before the "Zero: Anno Domini" there had existed a whole different scale. The approximate year of the present would be 2779, roughly of course. So, back to the topic of interest, Christ's death changed the way Europe, and the Middle East have functioned. As societies, and also ruling entities. But why has the time been shifted in the favor of Christianity, or what is known as Christianity.
It's all really in the shape of things, and the way that our society(western. I'm assuming by the attitudes of the readers :]) has aligned itself with piety. Cleanliness, and what was taught as cleanliness. Let's make a foolish comparison. Medieval peoples wiped there rectal excrement with the left hand (SINISTRA), and only greeting with the right (my Latin needs some touching up..."l.o.l.") As a result, our culture uses the term "sinister" as wicked, or relating to celestial matters.
...Off track, but back on track... Jesus stole the Torah. Why? Was it a symbol of his faith, that needed to be in the hands of His people? Or did it have to do with Moses, the prior prophet, whose prophecy was recieved from God Himself, through an effigy of sorts; a "burning bush." I don't know much of the Old Testament, but i recall a tale of the serpent fashioned of copper. We will get into the significance of this shape later...
not much later...
-The Fall of Rome at the hands of the Visigoth Empire -The Nord's "conversion" to the Christian Faith in Greenland
Just some notes to get you thinking...
We come to this shape. A serpent... doesn't that mean Satan(origin: Egytian god of darkness-Set)? Lucifer(Origin: Latin-"Son of the North Star" or "Light Bearer"?! THE BEAST(common leftism)?!?!
(Just a brief note: I have acquired this knowledge through studies. Individual, and literary)
I think our genetic memories have failed us. Conspiracy theories themselves are a conspiracy. We need real tangible proof... so here it is.
There were, at the beginning stage of the Hebrew language, 22 sounds. These sounds were alphabatised by shining a light and observing the shape of the shadow casted to represent one letter. You can see it now, Moses, his name was, sitting by candle-light turning this copper instrument all night, to crack some code, as if the Gods revealed their secrets to him.
Where did the Shape come from, and why (initially)... According to Ancient Egyptian myths (papyrus and artifacts) there was a change in the cosmos that caused a rebirth of the sun (RA) and a messenger was sent to Earth (God Khepra) Khepra is often shown as a dung beetle; born from fecal matter, rolls the detriment it's entire life, so it can make sweet love to the ball, and have birth once more. So... life, sustaining raw matter... creating more life...right? So what's left?
There is another symbol adopted by the Graeco-Romans, from the Egyptains. Lets go there...
The Bennu Bird, had been deified, and placed in the top chamber of the Great Pyramid. The Bennu Bird was described with such awe: "magnificant colors." If you'd like to know more of the Bennu Bird (also see: BenBen craft) search this site, many people post stuff about Egypt in here. I'm not too fond of the spacecraft theory, thus i will not describe it further.
But the Great Pyramid, what about that? The Shape; you're wondering "when will this jerk get on with it?!" I seem to enjoy long, devistatingly angering run on sentences...
If you observe a light, shown down (12:00 noon) at the apex of a four-sided pyramid, you would see this shape that spirals downward about half-way, and stops. If you look at, you would see a serpent standing on it's hind. This is God Khepra. Literally meaning "a serpent occupied by God (RA)"
This is the light that we see as the holy spirit. In any religion, plain text, read it. The Holy Spirit. Every culture has found their way of attaining personal deification, and representing God according to their traditions.
So. The Illuminati. The Enlightened Ones. Was Siddhartha a conspirator TOO?! haha. no not at all. I find that Buddhism, not essentially dogma, but belief, is not of this tale of death, rebirth, new life. Even the Necronomicon (Book of Dead Names) follows this script. And i don't mean the 22 cards of the Egytiann tarot containing a hidden Hebrew letter, OR the psalms (the Gypsy Bible, if you must)of the Holy Bible.
So what it comes down to is that Illuminati is a Latin word that means "Enlightened Ones" born anew, and after attaining the sacred knowledge, that no man of the 21st century could know (times change, ADAPT!), they were made to walk the streets of their cities cloaked, in a white hood. Many Ancient political figures of the "Roman Era" were educated in many secrets that have died with them. Or have they?
Don't be a radical.
I'd like to thank Des Griffin, and Tony Bushby. Two great authors. Get to know their stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.181.227 ( talk) 17:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
WTF. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.59.159.193 (
talk)
23:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned that this section could quickly become a "trivia" section... so I think a bit of structure is called for. It is obvious that many books, comics, video games etc make reference to the Illuminati... so instead of listing each and every one, I an going to group them into paragraphs on each genre, and list a few prominent examples. The point is to demonstrate that the Illuminati features in fiction, not to list every single occurance where they do. Blueboar ( talk) 16:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Is that a reasonable redirect? Shouldn't it rather redirect to the film with that name? __ meco ( talk) 08:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The 1782 Congress of Wilhelmsbad was a real historical event but you need to seperate historical fact from historical fiction because it has been misrepresented by various Freemasonic and Rosicrucian bodies over the centuries to serve their respective agendas.
For example, the French esotericist and adherant of Le Hieron du Val d'Or, Paul Le Cour, blamed the 1782 Congress for the French Revolution, and wrongly called Weishaupt a Jew: "There had been the Masonic Congress of Wilhemsbad in 1782, and the malign influence of a German Jew called Weischaupt, who set in train the rationalist movement in the lodges and brought about the bloody revolution of 1793." (Atlantis magazine, Number 68, 1936).
Try Mythology of the Secret Societies by Professor J M Roberts for a condensed account (recently reprinted in paperback). For an in-depth account you need to understand French and consult Les illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie allemande by René Le Forestier.
http://www.philosophe-inconnu.com/Livres/a_illum_baviere.htm
Wfgh66 ( talk) 22:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
See:
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/illuminati.html
Wfgh66 (
talk)
18:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The phrase "However, no reliable evidence can be found to support that Weishaupt's group survived into the 19th century." represents only the writer's opinion. Somebody could think that there are plenty of proofs in the books about this subject and some other may say there are no proofs. So for the neutrality of the article this phrase should be taken off. Also the writer is espressing his opinion on what is reliable or not, by which right can he say what sources are reliable and which are not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.121.237 ( talk) 07:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Wfgh66 ( talk) 09:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
== i agree, i think this is the writers opinion, i also think that this should be updated,
Leo Zagami - he is a self claimed 'whistle blower' of the illuminati, he made predictions of Obama being president and the Economic crash of september. I think this member should be linked as then his testamony can atleast be heard. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.69.25.78 (
talk)
19:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Would this radio interview with former Illuminati member Svali be allowed to be used as a credible source?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=515jTdu9Q-E
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/svali_speaks.htm
The Illuminati were named several hundred years ago, but trace their roots and history to the ancient mystery religions of Egypt, ancient Babylon, and even Mesopotamia.
Wfgh66 ( talk) 21:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
What is this group about?
67.174.178.126 ( talk) 06:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)Scrimm@comcast.net
Comes to marketing, advertising orders, lies. Wiki this is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edictorwikicentral ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor recently removed the "Factual Accuracy is Disputed" tag. This was reverted by Saddhiyama (perhaps thining it was just vandalism?). Normally I would agree... but the exchange got me wondering whether this tag shouldn't be removed... the article has been revised extensively since the tag was added after all. Is the factual accuracy of the article still disputed? If so, what statements are considered inaccurate? Blueboar ( talk) 16:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Is there any reason that this text, one of only two primary sources on the Illuminati, is not mentioned in any way? This text, which warns that the Illuminati are attempting to infiltrate Freemasonic lodges, claims not that they are fostering a world government by corrupting and controlling current governments, but that they are an Enlightenment group who wish to abolish government and organised religion and foster a gift economy. Although this is by far less popular a theory than the New World Order one, it is historically important. 141.132.11.4 ( talk) 04:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, someone thought it would be OK to merge the "Illuminati in Popular Culture" article into this one without any prior discussion. Had it been discussed, I would have stated the following:
I am strongly opposed to such a merger. While this article does have a small section to cover pop culture, the concept here is to be representitive and not exhaustive. An exhaustive list of pop culture references ends up dominating the article with trivial references. It is enough to say that the Illuminati are central to the plots of various books, movies, TV shows, video games, etc. and to give the best known examples of that occuring in each genre.
I have reverted back to the pre-merger version... if the consensus of editors (after a full discussion) is that we should include a trivia list in the article, then it can be returned. Blueboar ( talk) 12:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't even know where to begin fixing this article. One thing in particular that bothers me is the last paragraph in the intro that talks about illuminist elitism -- there are BILLIONS of Hindus and Buddhists around the world who believe in enlightenment and accept the gurus of their lineages as authentically enlightened beings. This part is desperately in need of POV repair. Yonderboy ( talk) 01:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this article should include a section on the history of the belief in an Illuminati conspiracy. I was reading something recently citation needed (haha) that gave a respectable academic account of an Illuminati scare that swept the US in (I think) the early 1900s. After that, I think it's also essential to mention Robert Anton Wilson and his tongue-in-cheek revival of the panic that has been terrifyingly embraced by Christian Fundamentalists who did not bother to check their sources. It was a devilish joke that has been absurdly successful, and the joke is on the Christians. Didn't this article used to mention how the first Christians were called "Illuminati" because a lit candle was placed over their heads at baptism? Yonderboy ( talk) 01:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It's a good question. The only source I can think of off the top of my head would be RAW's own book *Everything is Under Control* -- but there might be another "Encyclopedia of Conspiracy Theories" out there by an uninvolved third party. Yonderboy ( talk) 19:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Well here's a start. Book description: "New England the Bavarian Illuminati is the history of the Illuminati scare that occurred in America at the end of the eighteenth century. It tells how the Federalists, including the New England clergy in particular, seized upon the idea that the Illuminati were behind the actions of the Democrats. Only a far-reaching conspiracy could explain the irreverent habits and searing attacks of the Jeffersonians. Fear of the secret Democratic Clubs, magnified by fear of the French Jacobins, made such a conspiracy readily believable... The conspiracy alarm is traced in detail, from the first announcement of the existence of the Illuminati given during a sermon, through the heated and virulent debates in newspapers and pamphlets, and finally to the decline of the public spectacle under counter-attacks and satirical mockery. This study of the Illuminati in New England was originally published in 1918. Acclaimed from its first printing, it has since then developed a respectable position as one of the most competent and important histories on the shadowy Order of the Illuminati." Again, another out-of-copyright book that can be read or downloaded from google or archive.org: [1] Yonderboy ( talk) 23:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry I don't have a copy of this on hand to help fix the article, but I do recall that the historical Bavarian Illuminati is discussed in *Moses the Egyptian* by Jan Assmann. On second thought, maybe I do have it. I'll see if I can dig it up and what help it will offer for the present article, but in any case it exists and it's a good source. Oh PS could someone archive this discussion page again? Yonderboy ( talk) 01:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Srsly, didn't this article used to say this? I found a quote from a late 19th Century Encyclopedia: "ILLUMINATI (Lat., the enlightened), a name supposed to have been given to the newly baptized in the early Christian church, because a lighted taper was put into their hands as a symbol of enlightenment; subsequently a name assumed at different periods by sects of mystics or enthusiasts who claimed a greater degree of illumination or perfection than other men." The entire entry is interesting. The whole book can be read/downloaded free from google book search: [2] Yonderboy ( talk) 23:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
the goethe and herder information, i think, has been extracted from illuminatus! trilogy, by robert anton wilson, though some of the information in the trilogy is delbrately false or skewed (or sometimes even pretending to be false when in fact not) i think this information is fairly accurate, robert anton wilson rarely if ever cited his references even when he had come across something he thought to be pretty historically accurate (he usually left the citations out for people who like a challenge, maybe this is why he is not generally held to be a scholar- that and his deliberate falsifacations; left as traps for the lazy).
While this article is referenced, without any inline citations or text attributions it is impossible to know which statements are backed by which sources. This is especially true in the case of some of the more "controvercial" statements and quotes. For example: there is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that simply crys out for a direct citation to where he said it, or at least to a book that claims he said it. To highlight the issue, I am going to "mess up" the article by placing a citation request tag where I think a direct citation is needed. I will probably get a few people screaming at me that I have overdone it... and if so, I appoligize ahead of time. I realize that this makes the article look ugly... but I am doing this in good faith to highlight what I see as a serious problem with this article. Blueboar 22:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
If I have learned anything on Wikipedia, it is that fact tags and demands for references are the telltale signs that there are serious attempts to suppress the truth by those who place those tags, who are typically characterized by remaining anonymous. By anonymous, I also include Wiki names because you can't tell who they really are without access to the inner workings of Wikipedia.-- 216.167.225.56 20:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I have Jewish blood from my parentage, so you may say I am not objective, but please be objective to consider this. Our world is full of selfish people to achieve their own ends. If a list of all powerful people [still alive] can be drawn up, why should they cooperate with each other or be related with one another? How can there be conspiracy among them?
Just like Adolf Hitler blamed the Jews for everything [as if the Jews at that time were so powerful to control German economy] the German suffered, Illuminati is a concept used by different people for different ends. Maybe to discriminate against / blame leaders, or the rich, or government, or to unite people for an uprising. Illuminati is a fabrication created for human beings' selfish purposes and it does not objectively exist.
23/08/07 - Alex I am not saying for one moment that I am an expert on the Illuminati,however I have just finished writing a paper for my PHD on them. I went away from the usual references and started from scratch. I had doubts before I started about the time frames. I found references in symbol form that the illuminati or the idea there of date back to 1600's. Now then for the interesting twist, I also read some fiction novels on the subject namely Dan Brown's angels and demons. I wrote to the publisher to find out if there was any fact in the book and they said alot of the information came from various sources and not all of it is fiction. So I started investigating certain pieces of information. It is indeed true that a group of scientists in the 1600's did start a free thinking society that was heavy criticised by the Vatican. They were known as the 'Enlightened Ones'. The So called Bavarian Illuminati was actually a trade union of sorts and has more links to the Masons than the Illuminati. If you visit Ingolstadt you will find in the city museum alot of their early records. People will rave on about the Illuminati for years and it is very easy to speculate in the modern day that the Oil, Industry and Political cartels are trying to form a new world order and therefore are the Illuminati, let us not forget the Bilderbergs and the Rothchilds. If they really exsist today then they are not getting very far with their plans. As Gavin mentioned below those authors have written some fantastic books on the history side of things, however my only concern is that there maybe a certain poetic licence at work to make the books sellable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.64.197.117 ( talk) 08:42, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
Well, as raised before, there are no references here anywhere despite extraordinary claims. This article needs some serious work. Gavin Scott 14:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
yup —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.177.204 ( talk) 17:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Should this article be split into Bavarian Illuminati and Illuminati (conspiracy)? This would make it easier to deal with the two very separate issues. One is factual and definite sources of it agree and another is as stated a conspiracy which is harder to cite reliable references for. Besides, they are two separate organizations. Thoughts? Gavin Scott 08:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
My thoughts exactly! I think thats the best way. Gavin Scott 13:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Modern Incarnations of the Bavarian Illuminati would be included in the Bavarian Illuminati article surely? Like modern antipopes are listed in the Antipope article. There is no need for three articles, only two. Gavin Scott 15:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Guy below me is depressed.... yeah and the Illuminati Conspiracy is a sidetrack anyways. If they had that much power, would any of us truly understand it?! Go to "Ancient times" and study the cultures, try to have at least a layman's understanding of ancient language, let alone foreign. It's not about Alex Jones, or anything in Texas. It's about the past. The sands of time. Check out "Bilderberg Group" you'd be interested in that. The Illuminati was an ancient group of Graeco-Roman politicians that were initiated into the Egyptain's panther society. Plato, Aristotle, and many others have written something about it... look it up. Oh, and if you have any real interest in satire, read Arbiter Petronius' "Satyricon." Good read... a little homo... not a big deal. they all were back then. "morte devs. omni vis volo lavde."- something to think about.
I've, for the second time now, neutralized a non-NPOV statement which was pretending that the question about the Bavarian Illuminati being "freethinkers" from the "enlightenment" had been completely settled to all the world's satisfaction. I found and included both a reference for those claiming such and a reference for those claiming that it was instead a conspiracy to infiltrate and overthrow governments, so readers could look up both sides of the story and decide for themselves, rather than us bullying their minds by making that decision for them. I invite Taroaldo to comment here, if he/she disagrees. Yosemite1967 05:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Given the existence of the Illuminatus Trilogy, I don't see why there's any controversy about this edit.-- SarekOfVulcan 14:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
That just doesnt make sense, that was a book series, it isn't in any way associated with the historical illuminati. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.98.19 ( talk) 00:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was the John Robinson reference removed? It may merit its dismissal as "loony stuff" but his book was the first English speaking work that talked about the Illuminati and so should have been kept (even if a link to the text has been left in). I don't know any of the other titles (and I saw Lulu - so I would not be surprised if these texts were less worthy of inclusion than Robinson), but surely references should not simply be taken out in a blanket motion with the minimum of explanation.
JASpencer ( talk) 22:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
"whether or not ceased to be headform not applicable to this article on wikipedia" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edictorwikicentral ( talk • contribs) 00:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Gabriel Rojas is no longer the head of his Illuminati Order. He resigned November of 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.137.68.67 ( talk) 03:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
"OTO, Reuss and Crowley has nothing to do with Bavarian Illuminati. Used only inappropriately the name illuminati to their personal ideas. Pigs." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edictorwikicentral ( talk • contribs) 00:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
NOTA PÚBLICA:
1 DE NOVIEMBRE DE 2006 A principios de octubre de 2006, decidí entrar en "sueños", es decir, en inactividad esotérica, dejando la responsabilidad de afiliar y transmitir grados de iniciación momentáneamente a los Cabezas Nacionales de la Orden Illuminati y la Societas OTO.
En 1 noviembre de 2006, me retiro definitivamente de las órdenes Orden Illuminati y Societas OTO y nombro un Supremo Consejo compuesto por un triunvirato como responsable internacional de la Orden Illuminati y la Societas OTO, único organismo desde esta fecha con responsabilidad de afiliar y transmitir grados.
Además, hago público que me desvinculo por completo de todas las órdenes esotéricas (masónicas, rosacruces, templarias, illuminati...), renegando del idealismo esotérico e iniciático de las mismas, ya que, para mí, en estos momentos, limita la voluntad y la razón y genera sectarismo y manipulación, sobretodo al estar unido a estructuras que sobredimensionan los riesgos.
El Sistema de iniciación que creé para la Orden Illuminati y la Societas OTO, el Rojismo, evoluciona del idealismo al materialismo, pero está demasiado próximo al idealismo y no siempre es bien comprendido, tanto por iniciados como por profanos.
Deseo aprovechar esta nota para desmentir las difamaciones que varios conspiranoicos y agentes o colaboradores de la Central Nacional de Inteligencia (servicio de inteligencia español) que se hacen pasar por iniciados, escritores e investigadores antisectas, han vertido contra nosotros en la Red, durante los últimos años. Jamás hemos conspirado, ni realizado nada ilegal. La única ilegalidad que cometimos fue un problema de amenazas a una revista con colaboradores nazis en 1999 que nos supuso una multa y punto. A partir de ahí, lo demás es pura mentira y difamación.
Atentamente,
Gabriel Lopez de Rojas
Rough Translation
PUBLIC NOTE:
1 OF NOVEMBER OF 2006 At the beginning of October of 2006, I decided to enter "dreams", that is to say, in esoteric inactivity, letting the responsibility to momentarily affiliate and transmit degrees of initiation to the National Heads of the Illuminati Order and Societas OTO.
On 1 November of 2006, I definitively retire from the orders Illuminati and Societas OTO and name a triunvirate like an international personage in charge of the Illuminati Order and Societas OTO, the only organism from this date with responsibility to affiliate and to transmit degrees.
In addition, I make public that I break contact myself completely with all the esoteric orders (masons, rosacrucians, templars, illuminati, etc.), apostatizing of the esoteric idealism and initiations of the same, at the moment, it limits the will, reason, and generates sectarianism and manipulation, amongst us all when united.
The System of initiation that I created for the Illuminati Order and Societas OTO, the Rojismo, evolved of the idealism to materialism, but this is next to the idealism and not always included or understood, as much by initiates or by the profane.
The desire to take advantage of this note to deny the defamations that several conspiracists and agents or collaborators of the National Power station of Intelligence (Spanish intelligence service) that has happened through initiates, writers and investigators, have spilled against us in the Network, during the few last years. We have never conspired, nor made nothing illegal. The only illegality that we committed were threats to a magazine with Nazi collaborators in 1999. From there, the others are pure lie and defamation.
Kindly,
Gabriel Lopez de Rojas
And even if you want to say well he just founded it, im giving you the information to expand as the section is about the illuminati after 1790.
ANYONE CAN EDIT OR ENTER ANY OR ALL INFOMATION INTO WIKI, REGARDLESS OF IT'S ACCURACY. THE "PROOF" IS IN THIS VERY POSTING...DOLTS!
Thank You,
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 14:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Not sure at all what you are asking... Could you rephrase please? Blueboar ( talk) 02:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
We seem to have quite a few references... and yet every third sentence remains tagged with a citation request! Surely we can substatiate at least some of the information with inline citations. I can do some of it based on the online refs (the BC&Y page for example)... but I don't have access to the printed material. We need to fix this... the article has been tagged for several months now. Blueboar ( talk) 03:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
falses orders, falses illuminati, end to marketing ( Edictorwikicentral ( talk) 13:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)).
Continue marketing in wikipedia? ( Edictorwikicentral ( talk) 22:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC))
Quality--this article really doesnt meet the same quality standards that other wikipedia articles do. I dont know who is in charge of it, but someone should take this article serious and explain the different facts and fiction around the illuminati. I am no expert. Lucrenta ( talk) 04:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)lucrenta
FALSE, LIES ARTICLE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.30.114.209 ( talk) 21:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I tried adding a link to the page: www.truthcontrol.com/conspiracies/illuminati as I feel it adds information to this topic that can not be found in the current article. It also includes links to videos about the illuminati. Just my thoughts.
Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slayerment ( talk • contribs) 07:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this article is missing the psychiatric point of view, such as the one pointed out by http://illuminated.tripod.com
It highlights Rodney St.Michael's book, Illuminati: Healing and Developing the Mind. The illuminati is not a single organization, but a generic word for individuals or organizations, independant from each other; not a single unified entity, but having a related or similar mindset, characteristic of the ancient Asian Buddhas, which is the sansrkit word for Enlightened One, and typifies a quest to cure schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, not just in the self, but also in the macro sense, in a schizoaffective universe.
The mindset evolved in Europe's Enlightenment era and was developed by various individuals and groups. The mindset influenced the formation of different governments around the world, but did not necessarily have direct control.
Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder has been around for thousands of years, and it will naturally continue to exist with the human race perpetually. The mindset to cure it, the Illuminati, will, of course, be around as a result of it.
Rodney St.Michael's books are viewable for free at books.google.com or at his website.
Colourfulglobe ( talk) 11:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that the fact that you replied a few seconds after the previous msg was posted clearly points to the fact that u are not neutral urself. U haven't even read it and judged it immediately. Just because something is free, specially a tripod site, doesn't mean it's unreliable. Money doesn't create reliability nor neutrality.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.55.146.150 ( talk • contribs)
That would make wikipedia biased then. Bill Gates has a lot of money and can create Encarta. Neutrality points to an open mind. Wikipedia should follow an open mind and not be biased against free sites, freethinking and the freeworld. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.55.146.150 ( talk) 12:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, thanks. Not many people trust Bill Gates. Nothing is perfect in this world, even neutrality and trustworthiness. Wikipedia may be biased, but at least you have a good discussion area. And very quick responses! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.55.146.150 ( talk) 12:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
My 2 cents: I agree that Tripod sites are certainly not viable as sources. It would be comparable to getting the evening news from Myspace blogs. Back to the point, I agree with the original post that the Illuminati is not any one identifiable group or entity. This can obviously be seen, even from the wiki article. Although, I am quickly lost by the idea that the "Illuminati mindset" is going to cure bipolar disorder? As an educated psychologist myself, I am open to the idea of expanding the article to include some psychological or psychiatric aspects of the Illuminati, but I'm sure we can all agree with Equazcion that fringe theories should be kept out of Wikipedia. Jonathanbaker1 ( talk) 18:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your insights. One of wikipedia's references is the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. And I think the free online version of it, the “Classic Encyclopedia” gives a better definition of what the Illuminati is. (See http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Illuminati)
It is defined as a label or designation used much earlier than the 1700s ”applied to, or assumed by, enthusiasts of types distinct from each other, according as the 'light' claimed was viewed as directly communicated from a higher source, or as due to a clarified and exalted condition of the human intelligence. “
This 'light' or mindset is classified into 2. One is spiritual, like talking directly to the 'voice of God' and the other is rational, seeing the mind as God. The article then gives an example of each class. For the spiritual type, the Alumbrados is cited. For the rational-spiritual type, the Rosicrucians. As it says, “Of different class were the so-called Illuminati, better known as Rosicrucians, who claimed to originate in 1422, but rose into notice in 1537”.
It barely mentions the Perfektibilisten (Bavarian Illuminati), who were also labeled “illuminati” by the public since the emphasis of the article is on the label instead of its use as a proper noun.
Even the 2002 (and perhaps higher) Encyclopedia Britannica uses “illuminati” as a label as far back as the 2nd century CE when referring to the group of Montanus:
"Before his (Montanus) conversion to Christianity, he apparently was a priest of the Oriental ecstatic cult of Cybele, the mother goddess of fertility."
"Montanus became the leader of a group of illuminati ('the enlightened'), including the prophetesses Priscilla (or Prisca) and Maximilla. The members exhibited the frenzied nature of their religious experience by enraptured seizures and utterances of strange languages that the disciples regarded as oracles of the Holy Spirit."
This type of 'light' or 'mindset' or 'direct communication with God' by hearing his 'voice' is called today as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or schizoaffective disorder. Although at that time, it was not called that way.
The renowned psychiatrist who specializes in schizophrenia described it in Discover magazine as a condition where a person hears "voices that command you to kill yourself, voices from outer space, two voices carrying on a conversation, even the voice of God."
For the rational type of Illuminati, the 'mindset' is described better by Buddhists, who think that the mind is God and whose goal is to attain Enlightenment.
I think the disambiguation portion of the article will be made clearer if the illuminati is not described as a proper noun but more emphasized as a label for people who carry this schizophrenic mindset. Notice for example in the comic books, Marvel describes it as good like the United Nations for superheroes. But DC comics and Disney describes it as evil. The bipolar characteristic of the illuminati is more visible when the Britannica's definition is used.
Politically today, China views the Dalai Lama as evil, while the U.S. Congress good. Adam W. may be viewed by Americans as evil but perhaps good for the Chinese. Maybe people will understand why if the illuminati is defined by Wiki in the same way as the Britannica.
Thanks for your help! Colourfulglobe ( talk) 12:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello again. The connection between the 2 is pointed out in Rodney St.Michael's books, including Illuminati: Healing and Developing the Mind, specially in Chapter 10, found in books.google.com as I mentioned in my original post. It's also found in his author blog at his website http://illuminated.tripod.com but as you said, tripod is not allowed. It is his original research however. Anyway, thanks for your time. I know you guys are busy and I must've consumed too much of your time already and it is quite embarrassing for me since you are not paid for this kind of work and yet you serve your customers so well. I wish banks had similar customer service! Anywayz, I'm dropping my complaint since I'm a bit busy with work too. At least wiki has an article on the illuminati. Encarta doesn't even have it at all! Again, thanks for your time! :) Colourfulglobe ( talk) 11:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel the current version of the Illuminati Conspiracy section is adequate, but not good enough. As in modern times most people consider the Illuminati to mean some sort of secret organization plotting to take over the globe it should be given more coverage in this article. Even though this modern Illuminati is probably rubbish thats not for us to decide- it should be given fair coverage...it does have quite a following after all. Also, this Illuminati is represented by the Eye Of Providence so it seems fair to include a picture of it- just for aesthetic tastes perhaps but it certainly contributes to the article. Gavin Scott ( talk) 09:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello again! I'm back with some free time, and the latest version of your illuminati article has improved, I must say. :)
But I just noticed that it is missing Lara Croft's movie under the section of fictional illuminati. Lara discovered that her father, Lord Croft, was an illuminatus, and she had to travel to Cambodia and Siberia to retrieve 2 split halves of the "Triangle of Light" or Illuminati Triangle and mend it together to save a life.
There's a wiki article about it: Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
-- Colourfulglobe ( talk) 14:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for the keys and the go signal. :) -- Colourfulglobe ( talk) 16:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello! References for video games, such as Deus Ex were removed with the reason "removed various games... by fictional we mean works of fiction (books, TV shows, movies, etc.)". I don't agree with this. The storyline of the mentioned game is as complicated and rich as the other mentioned pieces of arts. So imhomo, Deus Ex should be also considered as a work of art. If even comics can go, games why not? Please read after my points and tell me your pros and contras. -- MegaBrutal ( talk) 09:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I understand your points. If we listed all works that mentions Illuminati, the fictional arts section would be much longer than the other parts of the article. But Illuminati (Deus Ex) has a key role in the game, so I still think that it has relevance here. So... may I re-add it? -- MegaBrutal ( talk) 23:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
There was a code to see her naked. Yeah I beat the whole game with the cheat in, and took a break in between levels. hahaha.
Where did they come from? Why have they had such an influence on our opinions on what is true and what is false? You may find your peers arguing points of 9/11 or Prescott Bush with the Union Banking money laundering scheme that ended in Operations Paper-clip. That all depends on who you see your peers as.
To find the start of any secret society, we must find the roots. Lets be safe and start with Christ's death, for this "Illuminati" must see something spiritual that we may not. The timeline of the period before the "Zero: Anno Domini" there had existed a whole different scale. The approximate year of the present would be 2779, roughly of course. So, back to the topic of interest, Christ's death changed the way Europe, and the Middle East have functioned. As societies, and also ruling entities. But why has the time been shifted in the favor of Christianity, or what is known as Christianity.
It's all really in the shape of things, and the way that our society(western. I'm assuming by the attitudes of the readers :]) has aligned itself with piety. Cleanliness, and what was taught as cleanliness. Let's make a foolish comparison. Medieval peoples wiped there rectal excrement with the left hand (SINISTRA), and only greeting with the right (my Latin needs some touching up..."l.o.l.") As a result, our culture uses the term "sinister" as wicked, or relating to celestial matters.
...Off track, but back on track... Jesus stole the Torah. Why? Was it a symbol of his faith, that needed to be in the hands of His people? Or did it have to do with Moses, the prior prophet, whose prophecy was recieved from God Himself, through an effigy of sorts; a "burning bush." I don't know much of the Old Testament, but i recall a tale of the serpent fashioned of copper. We will get into the significance of this shape later...
not much later...
-The Fall of Rome at the hands of the Visigoth Empire -The Nord's "conversion" to the Christian Faith in Greenland
Just some notes to get you thinking...
We come to this shape. A serpent... doesn't that mean Satan(origin: Egytian god of darkness-Set)? Lucifer(Origin: Latin-"Son of the North Star" or "Light Bearer"?! THE BEAST(common leftism)?!?!
(Just a brief note: I have acquired this knowledge through studies. Individual, and literary)
I think our genetic memories have failed us. Conspiracy theories themselves are a conspiracy. We need real tangible proof... so here it is.
There were, at the beginning stage of the Hebrew language, 22 sounds. These sounds were alphabatised by shining a light and observing the shape of the shadow casted to represent one letter. You can see it now, Moses, his name was, sitting by candle-light turning this copper instrument all night, to crack some code, as if the Gods revealed their secrets to him.
Where did the Shape come from, and why (initially)... According to Ancient Egyptian myths (papyrus and artifacts) there was a change in the cosmos that caused a rebirth of the sun (RA) and a messenger was sent to Earth (God Khepra) Khepra is often shown as a dung beetle; born from fecal matter, rolls the detriment it's entire life, so it can make sweet love to the ball, and have birth once more. So... life, sustaining raw matter... creating more life...right? So what's left?
There is another symbol adopted by the Graeco-Romans, from the Egyptains. Lets go there...
The Bennu Bird, had been deified, and placed in the top chamber of the Great Pyramid. The Bennu Bird was described with such awe: "magnificant colors." If you'd like to know more of the Bennu Bird (also see: BenBen craft) search this site, many people post stuff about Egypt in here. I'm not too fond of the spacecraft theory, thus i will not describe it further.
But the Great Pyramid, what about that? The Shape; you're wondering "when will this jerk get on with it?!" I seem to enjoy long, devistatingly angering run on sentences...
If you observe a light, shown down (12:00 noon) at the apex of a four-sided pyramid, you would see this shape that spirals downward about half-way, and stops. If you look at, you would see a serpent standing on it's hind. This is God Khepra. Literally meaning "a serpent occupied by God (RA)"
This is the light that we see as the holy spirit. In any religion, plain text, read it. The Holy Spirit. Every culture has found their way of attaining personal deification, and representing God according to their traditions.
So. The Illuminati. The Enlightened Ones. Was Siddhartha a conspirator TOO?! haha. no not at all. I find that Buddhism, not essentially dogma, but belief, is not of this tale of death, rebirth, new life. Even the Necronomicon (Book of Dead Names) follows this script. And i don't mean the 22 cards of the Egytiann tarot containing a hidden Hebrew letter, OR the psalms (the Gypsy Bible, if you must)of the Holy Bible.
So what it comes down to is that Illuminati is a Latin word that means "Enlightened Ones" born anew, and after attaining the sacred knowledge, that no man of the 21st century could know (times change, ADAPT!), they were made to walk the streets of their cities cloaked, in a white hood. Many Ancient political figures of the "Roman Era" were educated in many secrets that have died with them. Or have they?
Don't be a radical.
I'd like to thank Des Griffin, and Tony Bushby. Two great authors. Get to know their stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.181.227 ( talk) 17:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
WTF. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.59.159.193 (
talk)
23:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned that this section could quickly become a "trivia" section... so I think a bit of structure is called for. It is obvious that many books, comics, video games etc make reference to the Illuminati... so instead of listing each and every one, I an going to group them into paragraphs on each genre, and list a few prominent examples. The point is to demonstrate that the Illuminati features in fiction, not to list every single occurance where they do. Blueboar ( talk) 16:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Is that a reasonable redirect? Shouldn't it rather redirect to the film with that name? __ meco ( talk) 08:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The 1782 Congress of Wilhelmsbad was a real historical event but you need to seperate historical fact from historical fiction because it has been misrepresented by various Freemasonic and Rosicrucian bodies over the centuries to serve their respective agendas.
For example, the French esotericist and adherant of Le Hieron du Val d'Or, Paul Le Cour, blamed the 1782 Congress for the French Revolution, and wrongly called Weishaupt a Jew: "There had been the Masonic Congress of Wilhemsbad in 1782, and the malign influence of a German Jew called Weischaupt, who set in train the rationalist movement in the lodges and brought about the bloody revolution of 1793." (Atlantis magazine, Number 68, 1936).
Try Mythology of the Secret Societies by Professor J M Roberts for a condensed account (recently reprinted in paperback). For an in-depth account you need to understand French and consult Les illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie allemande by René Le Forestier.
http://www.philosophe-inconnu.com/Livres/a_illum_baviere.htm
Wfgh66 ( talk) 22:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
See:
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/illuminati.html
Wfgh66 (
talk)
18:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The phrase "However, no reliable evidence can be found to support that Weishaupt's group survived into the 19th century." represents only the writer's opinion. Somebody could think that there are plenty of proofs in the books about this subject and some other may say there are no proofs. So for the neutrality of the article this phrase should be taken off. Also the writer is espressing his opinion on what is reliable or not, by which right can he say what sources are reliable and which are not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.121.237 ( talk) 07:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Wfgh66 ( talk) 09:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
== i agree, i think this is the writers opinion, i also think that this should be updated,
Leo Zagami - he is a self claimed 'whistle blower' of the illuminati, he made predictions of Obama being president and the Economic crash of september. I think this member should be linked as then his testamony can atleast be heard. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.69.25.78 (
talk)
19:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Would this radio interview with former Illuminati member Svali be allowed to be used as a credible source?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=515jTdu9Q-E
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/svali_speaks.htm
The Illuminati were named several hundred years ago, but trace their roots and history to the ancient mystery religions of Egypt, ancient Babylon, and even Mesopotamia.
Wfgh66 ( talk) 21:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
What is this group about?
67.174.178.126 ( talk) 06:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)Scrimm@comcast.net
Comes to marketing, advertising orders, lies. Wiki this is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edictorwikicentral ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor recently removed the "Factual Accuracy is Disputed" tag. This was reverted by Saddhiyama (perhaps thining it was just vandalism?). Normally I would agree... but the exchange got me wondering whether this tag shouldn't be removed... the article has been revised extensively since the tag was added after all. Is the factual accuracy of the article still disputed? If so, what statements are considered inaccurate? Blueboar ( talk) 16:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Is there any reason that this text, one of only two primary sources on the Illuminati, is not mentioned in any way? This text, which warns that the Illuminati are attempting to infiltrate Freemasonic lodges, claims not that they are fostering a world government by corrupting and controlling current governments, but that they are an Enlightenment group who wish to abolish government and organised religion and foster a gift economy. Although this is by far less popular a theory than the New World Order one, it is historically important. 141.132.11.4 ( talk) 04:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, someone thought it would be OK to merge the "Illuminati in Popular Culture" article into this one without any prior discussion. Had it been discussed, I would have stated the following:
I am strongly opposed to such a merger. While this article does have a small section to cover pop culture, the concept here is to be representitive and not exhaustive. An exhaustive list of pop culture references ends up dominating the article with trivial references. It is enough to say that the Illuminati are central to the plots of various books, movies, TV shows, video games, etc. and to give the best known examples of that occuring in each genre.
I have reverted back to the pre-merger version... if the consensus of editors (after a full discussion) is that we should include a trivia list in the article, then it can be returned. Blueboar ( talk) 12:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't even know where to begin fixing this article. One thing in particular that bothers me is the last paragraph in the intro that talks about illuminist elitism -- there are BILLIONS of Hindus and Buddhists around the world who believe in enlightenment and accept the gurus of their lineages as authentically enlightened beings. This part is desperately in need of POV repair. Yonderboy ( talk) 01:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this article should include a section on the history of the belief in an Illuminati conspiracy. I was reading something recently citation needed (haha) that gave a respectable academic account of an Illuminati scare that swept the US in (I think) the early 1900s. After that, I think it's also essential to mention Robert Anton Wilson and his tongue-in-cheek revival of the panic that has been terrifyingly embraced by Christian Fundamentalists who did not bother to check their sources. It was a devilish joke that has been absurdly successful, and the joke is on the Christians. Didn't this article used to mention how the first Christians were called "Illuminati" because a lit candle was placed over their heads at baptism? Yonderboy ( talk) 01:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It's a good question. The only source I can think of off the top of my head would be RAW's own book *Everything is Under Control* -- but there might be another "Encyclopedia of Conspiracy Theories" out there by an uninvolved third party. Yonderboy ( talk) 19:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Well here's a start. Book description: "New England the Bavarian Illuminati is the history of the Illuminati scare that occurred in America at the end of the eighteenth century. It tells how the Federalists, including the New England clergy in particular, seized upon the idea that the Illuminati were behind the actions of the Democrats. Only a far-reaching conspiracy could explain the irreverent habits and searing attacks of the Jeffersonians. Fear of the secret Democratic Clubs, magnified by fear of the French Jacobins, made such a conspiracy readily believable... The conspiracy alarm is traced in detail, from the first announcement of the existence of the Illuminati given during a sermon, through the heated and virulent debates in newspapers and pamphlets, and finally to the decline of the public spectacle under counter-attacks and satirical mockery. This study of the Illuminati in New England was originally published in 1918. Acclaimed from its first printing, it has since then developed a respectable position as one of the most competent and important histories on the shadowy Order of the Illuminati." Again, another out-of-copyright book that can be read or downloaded from google or archive.org: [1] Yonderboy ( talk) 23:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry I don't have a copy of this on hand to help fix the article, but I do recall that the historical Bavarian Illuminati is discussed in *Moses the Egyptian* by Jan Assmann. On second thought, maybe I do have it. I'll see if I can dig it up and what help it will offer for the present article, but in any case it exists and it's a good source. Oh PS could someone archive this discussion page again? Yonderboy ( talk) 01:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Srsly, didn't this article used to say this? I found a quote from a late 19th Century Encyclopedia: "ILLUMINATI (Lat., the enlightened), a name supposed to have been given to the newly baptized in the early Christian church, because a lighted taper was put into their hands as a symbol of enlightenment; subsequently a name assumed at different periods by sects of mystics or enthusiasts who claimed a greater degree of illumination or perfection than other men." The entire entry is interesting. The whole book can be read/downloaded free from google book search: [2] Yonderboy ( talk) 23:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)