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Is there a wikipedia-wide policy with regards to the terms "illegal immigrant", "illegal alien", "undocumented immigrant", etc.? Illegal immigrant seems to be the neutral-er, middle road, but I'm curious what others think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandanar ( talk • contribs) 16:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Controversial subject improvement Many peope felt we should legalized the undocumented immigrants or not. They accuse undocumented immigtants broke the American laws. It was a subject that become our every day life talk. Why should help or not help undocumented immgrants. So this is debate is going on. s subject as well as others that are so laden with emotional opinion ought to be subject to a different standard for editing, one that slowed down the process and subjected it to more community review. --Unsigned edit by 4.131.222.208 10:09, 27 December 2005
How come theres no mention that the grand majority of anti illegal immigration people are white racists? Face it LATINOS TAKING OVER get Over It. How can something like this be neutral when there need to be open borders US=MEXICO IN 2007
You've shown you're no better than the people you oppose. I am against illegal immigration. However, I also understand the main reason for it is the magnet of employers and administration after administration that largely looks the other way. Usually the most annoying and vocal protesters tend to be racist on both sides of this game, and it is one. Why do you even type in caps? To make the "racists" more angry? am I talking to air?.....I think he/she won't get a notification of this response...besides...it is not NPOV, bottom line. RMartinez
RESPONSE Because we aren't...we of all kinds of people agree that we are a lawfull nation, a compassionate nation and we have rights under our constutition to have our government protect us and our nation. Weapons of mass destruction aren't only Artillery, Arms and Missiles.... It's.... the threat of Invasion of a Country, Potential passage for Terrorist, Digging holes and tunnels for unlawful passage into our Country, Over- staying visas, Unknown Illegals within, Vicious and Violent intruders turned loose on our streets, Violent Illegal Gang and Drug wars, Murder of Citizens and Government Workers, Smuggling Humans, Felons, Animals, Weapons and Drugs by the tons, Aiding and abetting criminal activity, Corruption, Mexican Militia crossing our borders questioning and trying to intimidate Citizens. Personal attacks on our Citizens, Property and Government, Illegal and Fraudulent use of State and Federal documents to obtain Money, Social Services and passage into and around our Country and bringing in diseases that threaten large populations. All of these atrocities result in Mayhem and Endangering lives of Citizenry. As a result there has been a magnitude of: Theft of people's identifications, buying, selling and using fraudulent Social Security cards, Licenses, Voter's Registration cards, Passports, Visas, Green cards and other Government Documents, driving with/without legal licenses, no insurance and a danger to all people. A crippling effect on States spending, Federal Government spending because of Illegals fraudulently obtaining State and Federal Social Services, Education, hiding from the government, tax evasion, unlawful employment and businesses not paying their share
What's the source on the 9/11 perpetrators? Two of them were granted visa extensions after their deaths, so they couldn't have been illegal when they committed their act. All were legally admitted as far as I know, but what's the source that all their visas expired? Bruxism 03:22, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I cleaned up the US section and dropped POV and incorrect information (such as the false statement there ever was a quota for Jews), and added an explanation for restrictionism. Rjensen 09:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Please, quotas for Jews did exist. Look it up in your college American History books--during the Russian Revolution and World War II, America did restrict Jewish refuges. -- Nissi Kim 04:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What Is Considered An Illegal Activity Under Immigration Law?
Here are some examples of the most common violations of United States Immigration laws:
Examples:
(This is not a complete list of violations.)
Where Can I Find the Law?
The Immigration and Nationality Act is a law that governs the admission of all people to the United States. For the parts of the law concerning illegal immigration activities, please see INA § 212, INA § 235, INA § 271, INA § 272, INA § 273, INA § 274, INA § 274A, INA § 274C, INA § 275, INA § 277, and INA § 278.
8 U.S.C. 1325
Improper Entry by Alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts; Any alien who -
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than six months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18, or imprisoned not more than two years or both.
How Can I Report Suspected Illegal Alien Activity or a Suspected Illegal Alien?
Each immigration field office has a specific process for reporting suspected illegal alien activity. You should first decide where the suspected illegal alien activity or illegal alien is located. Our offices have areas of jurisdiction that are generally determined by state boundaries. The three immigration related agencies -- U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection -- have web sites where you can find immigration information. They are: uscis.gov, ice.gov, and cbp.gov. All three are accessible from the Department of Homeland Security web site -- dhs.gov. --Unsigned edit by 71.116.176.231 14:34, 28 December 2005
There really should be a section on illegal immigration in Europe, where it is probably a more heated political issue than it is in the United States (where both main parties generally seem content with the status quo). Funnyhat 19:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
How does one become an immigrant (illegal or otherwise) in one's country of birth? - Will Beback 00:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
mexican mantra All of the laws should be enforced equally, regardless of race, religion, and/or national origin. That is with the exception of mexicans, and they should be above the law and exempt from the law. And the only purpose that a tonto gringo serves is to pay taxes to support the superior and noble mexican.
Anyone who disagrees with this philosophy is a Xenophobic Racist.
Pancho --Unsigned edit by 71.116.148.75 23:29, 26 December 2005
I think that statement is unfair. I disagree with your statement about Mexicans being above the law. Currently, legal Mexican immigrants get equal treatment from what I have seen. In the US, no one is above the law. If you are a legal US citizen, you are subject to the same laws as anyone else. I don't believe illegal immigrants should have the same rights as US citizens, because, well, illegals are not US citizens. Mexicans should not be above and exempt from the law because that would not be equal and would go against everything for which this country stands. I am not xenophobic, and I am not racist, I have nothing against any other race. Xenophobia is the fear of strangers and the unknown. I am afraid of neither. It is unfair to call one a "Xenophobic Racist" just because they don't agree with your statement. Wolfranger 14:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
And the only purpose that a tonto gringo serves is to pay taxes to support the superior and noble mexican.
Yet you accuse us of rascism AND treating people unfairly? As for mexicans being "above the law", most of the law can't really be applied to them because they AREN'T CITIZENS. Vizierde 18:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
"Crossing the border without papers is not a felony but only a misdemeanor (that is, a crime punishable by a term of imprisonment not to exceed one year). Mexicans who are caught illegally crossing the border are fingerprinted and immediately returned, unless they are a repeat offender, in which case they may be criminally prosecuted. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) made the hiring of an illegal alien an offense for the first time. American businesses have hired well over 10 million illegal aliens per year. (There is always heavy turnover in low-skilled jobs.) Enforcement has been very lax due to the efforts of powerful lobbyists such as the Chamber of Commerce, which argues the labor is needed by the American economy. Some major companies have occasionally been found to use undocumented workers. Tyson Foods was accused of actively importing illegal labor for its chicken packing plants, but a jury in Chattanooga, Tennessee resoundingly acquitted the company after evidence was presented that it went beyond mandated government requirements in demanding documentation for its employees. And Wal-Mart was accused of using illegal janitorial workers, though it claimed they were hired by a subcontractor without company knowledge. Philippe Kahn, who wanted to stay in the United States, created the successful computer software company Borland International without proper legal status. During his 2003 campaign for California governor, it was alleged that Arnold Schwarzenegger had violated his visa by working without a permit in the 1970s; he vehemently denied the charge and produced his documents. The employment by prominent individuals of persons without work permits has been an occasional issue in politics. Linda Chavez, Zoe Baird, and Tom Tancredo are among those accused of hiring illegal aliens, the resulting scandals sometimes being dubbed "Nannygate". Many or most illegals, of course, commit other federal offenses by accepting wages without withholding on "day laborer jobs" with millions of such transactions occuring annually, or by purchasing fake documents such as Social Security cards, birth certificates and driver's licenses, and many use fake social security numbers (knowing they will never see the money that they extra-legally pay into Social Security.) In addition to supplying cheap labor to American businesses, and day laborer services to individuals and families, illegal aliens also supply a significant quantity of cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine and, of course, marijuana, to the illegal American drug trade. Many experts estimate that over 25% of all major narcotics traffickers in the United States are illegal aliens." 18:40, 1 January 2006 67.124.195.107
"Irridentism, the operative "poly-sci" word, related to U.S. - Mexico Border Issues, is almost unknown by press,& public
Most nations located on a border between one cultural region and another quite different cultural region, tend to see illegal immigrants from that culturally different country to be among the least welcome, should they come in very large numbers. If they come illegally, and outnumber all other immigrants 2 to 1, this threatens by their very presence, the cultural identity of the counrty entered. This is usually seen as a "non-combat" form of invasion. Mexico's revolutionary hero, Pancho Villa, did in fact, invade the State of New Mexico in 1916, and killed a number of Americans. American Immigrant U.S. families from all other parts of the world must wait 5 to 10 years to allow a son or daughter to join their U.S. citizen parents. With world wide immigration, the U.S, will remain a "melting pot" english speaking culture. With mostly Mexican immigration, U.S. will become a cultural mixture of the two nations in all possible ways over the next 100 years. So goes the arguement of the out-spoken anti-illegal community on Mexico-U.S. Irridentism. In balance, it should be noted that Mexico sees the massive illegal entry from Central America in "irridentist" terms from their own perspective. "Illegals" are treated with little compassion, and are promply ejected by authorities." 2 January 2006 Nativeborncal
This information is pejorative and misleading, not to mention unsourced. In future please discuss major changes on the talk page prior to making them. Natgoo 12:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the statement at the end of the paragraph about illegal immigration in the US, ", as well as covering those who are left undeported due to the citizenship of their children.". It is blatantly wrong and unsupported either by examples or legal cites. I am a clerk at a California Immigration Court of the Executive Office of Immigration Review and, although it is definitely not to my liking, my office orders the removal (deportation) of illegal aliens with US Citizen children almost every day. Very often the children are removed with their parents. There are cases even where a single alien parent does not have a sole custody over the child(ren) and since the US Citizen parent is nowhere to be found to take care of or to allow the departure of his/her minor children, the children are placed in foster care for an indefinite period of time.
-- Emcho 10:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC) This is terrible! There should be a point where imorality succumbs to illegality.
Should there be a distinction made re the title, since "Illegal immigration" happens in many countries? The article is obviously from the US POV. 69.6.162.160 01:14, 7 July 2006 (UTC)Brian Pearson
agreed, but dont that you suggest Illegal immigration as the base? -- Herzog 02:11, 6 December 2005
The article says, "Illegal alien" is the official term used in legislation and by the border patrol for a person who has entered the country illegally or is residing in the United States illegally after entering legally (for example, using a tourist visa and remaining after the visa expires)." This is absolutely incorrect. The term "illegal alien" is *not* a term of art nor is it used in any legislation or official documents of the Border Patrol, Immigration and Customs Enforcement or Citizenship and Immigration Services. The term is pejorative and is used primarily by anti-immigrant groups and individuals. It makes no grammatical or logical sense, and is factually inaccurate: "Illegal" generally refers to criminal violations, while overstaying one's visa or entering the country without inspection is a civil (not criminal) violation.
In addition, as many people point out, it makes no sense to talk about an "illegal person." The correct and accurate term is "undocumented worker" or "undocumented immigrant." Without them, by the way, the U.S. economy would collapse.
Please correct the article.
"Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest." ( Illegal Aliens.US)
What part of "illegal immigrant" is derogatory? It is fairly accurate and unbiased term to describe somebody who has crossed any national border illegally. Honestly, the term "illegal alien" makes them sound as though they are from another species, and should be considered derogatory! The term "undocumented immigrant" can be used to describe an immigrant who has forgotten to renew their legal documentation, and as previously stated, is indirect and broad.
Of course, the term of "illegal immigration" is simply an opinion, as is the monicker "undocumented immigrant", just as racial issues come in opinions (it might not appeal to all audiences).
Also, to more directly refute the term "illegal alien", if you look up the word "alien", you'll find a description such as "a person from another nation, territory, or governized landscape". Well, it's evident that they're not from here, so in a sense, it's redundant, while the expression "undocumented immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" are oxymorons, because an immigrant particularly describes one who has come from another country to legally reside in another, and is synonymous with terms such as "renewed citizen" (whatever that means). So again, it's all about definition of words.
Why are the arguments for "illegal aliens" and against "illegal immigrants" and against "undocumented immigrants" consistently and entirely removed? The editor(s) always seem to remove those arguments based technicalities or because of their personal and PC POV. Of all of the edits I've submitted THEY ALWAYS SEEM TO GET ENTIRELY REMOVED. This exercise has been frustrating and clearly shows the BIAS of the editors!!! The end result seems to be that Wikipedia will become politically correct mush and not an authoritative source.
The opening paragraph was both confusing and false -- not to mention its numerous useless links. I tried to simplify it and to indicate the POV status of the terminology. Suggestions welcome!! Rjensen 11:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
"Illegal Labor. There is also the widespread exploitation of Mexican workers brought to this country illegally. These socalled wetbacks number probably not less than 60,000 in southern Texas alone....Up to the present, the burden of blame and punishment for violation of the immigration laws of the United States falls on the wetback himself. He pays the penalty in the low wages he must accept, the mistreatment he must put up with, the constant fear of arrest, the loss of wages if he is picked up, and the hostility of the local Mexican community. That he is a symptom of a basic maladjustment in the economies of the two countries and a victim of the feebleness of inter-American standards is not generally recognized. Moreover, it is not only the bootleg contractor and the grapevine headhunter who paves the way for the wetback. In a sense he is forced to seek better conditions north of the border by the slow but relentless pressure of United States' agricultural, financial, and oil corporate interests on the entire economic and social evolution of the Mexican nation. Inflation, rising utility rates, the agrarian stalemate, and the flank attack on oil expropriation are some of the major causes of the persistent exodus of Mexican workers. oldest quote: Agnes E. Meyer, "Southwest Farms Encourage Child Labor, Illegal Entry", Pan American News, August 1, 1946, p. 3. Rjensen 13:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The section on Mexico says "It has also received those who are fleeing their native areas for religious persecution such as the Russian Molokai and Christian Lebanese and Mennonites". Since the word "Molokai" contains a link to the Hawaiian island of that name, which has no connection with Russia, there is obviously an error of some kind. Could somebody with the necessary knowledge fix it? -- DPJ, 2006-02-27 05:37 UTC
This was fixed on 2006-03-10. mexicans should stay where they are....IN MEXICO....... we don't want you here
Illegal alien refers to the person crossing the border without authorization, and is the preferred US government term for unpermitted crossers ( see Google unclesam link. Compare with undocumented immigrant, illegal immigrant, undocumented worker). While we should not be US centric I think this is an argument why the two should not be merged. Calwatch 09:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Am I the only one confused by the term? Simple grammar seems to suggest that it refers to a person who's a) an immigrant b) illegal. Since illegal is an adjective usually applied to acts, not people, and furthermore anything that is usually considered "illegal" is to be stamped out, I can see how it would be upsetting to be called (or so it would seem) an illegal person.
I'm strictly concerned about the (grammatical) accuracy of the term here. "Illegal immigration" is perfectly fine: it's an act, an act of immigration, and that act happens to be against the law, thus illegal. "Illegal immigrant" seems to suggest that a person can have the property of being illegal; while there's hardly any danger of reasonably alert adults making such a connection consciously, I am worried about false syllogisms along the lines of:
occuring subconsciously, or in young readers who haven't been confronted with the term.
I'm not aware of any other term in the English language that's commonly formed that way. When someone speeds in a car, they're driving illegally (by violating the law that specifies the speed limit), but I wouldn't consider them an "illegal driver".
Is anyone aware of further examples of the mechanism that resulted in "illegal immigrant" at work? I believe the term violates normal rules about how adjectives work in the English language to make a political statement (roughly, that all the adjective phrases that can be applied to all illegal acts can also be applied to illegal immigrants).
I believe that "illegal immigrant" is too inaccurate a term for wikipedia to use, and a dangerous precedent.
Note, again, that I'm not criticising "illegal immigration" and such terms, only those that apply the adjective "illegal" to people, which is something that the dictionary definition just doesn't allow. "They immigrated illegally, so they're illegal immigrants" is just not the way language works.
RandomP 02:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the statement that "illegal immigrant" is improper use of the adjective "illegal". "Illegal alien" is not much better. To clarify, an "illegal driver" would be better termed an "unlicensed driver". There seems to be no better adjective than "illegal" that is predominant in the current public discourse on this topic. By definition, an alien person within a given country whose presence there is contrary to that country's law, is a criminal. Perhaps "criminal alien" is a better term? Would it be appropriate for wikipedia to title this topic contrary to the terms used in general discourse? I propose that "Illegal Alien" be maintained as the primary topic title, because it is the legally defined term (in the United States, at least), and because "Illegal Immigrant" is a contradiction in terms of U.S. immigration law.
Uraijit 12:22 28 Nvember 2006
The two arguments advanced here seem to be
I disagree with both. For an example of the latter, consider that "the abominable and detestable crime against nature" was, at least until 2002, a term legally defined in Massachussetts, referring to, I believe, anal sex. Clearly that wouldn't have been an acceptable article name?
For the former, consider "China" and "Ireland", both of which are used to refer to different geographical/political entities; while I admit those two are also confusing, and I can't really think of a non-confusing example that's still in common use, I have no doubt that historically, they used to be very common. I'm not really sure I want to remember the "general discourse" terms relating to miscegenation, homosexuality, or religious dissent, I think that such nonsensical terms as "unamerican" were at one point used generally, but still would not have been acceptable.
In essence, I believe if a term is rejected by a minority that's not vanishingly small that has something that might be considered a good argument, and a usable alternative is available, the NPOV doctrine means we should use the alternative. That's certainly true of "illegal immigrant" (a person who immigrated illegally, or an undocumented immigrant).
RandomP 19:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
"while others follow underground routes, such as the movement of African-Americans into free northern states and Canada through the Underground Railroad during the 19th century" is a big violation and so I've deleted that clause. Joncnunn 20:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
-- added the term "unauthorized immigrant" ----
unauthorized is becoming the U.S. Federal Statistical System's term for what formerly might be called "undocumented". Unauthorized (= quasi-legal + illegal) is intended to capture the legal status of the person.
"Those more supportive of the illegal immigrant community tend to replace illegal with undocumented, falsely implying that those who do immigrate illegally are not committing a crime. (In virtually every nation, failing to comply with immigration requirements is, by definition, a crime.)" This string of statements contains value judgements and is not factual. How can the use of the word 'undocumented' imply that migrants are 'not committing a crime', when illegal migration is by definition migration without the necessary documentation (visa)? -- 194.204.106.127 00:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Matt
I removed the line "Ironically, with the recent effort to track these populations, documentation - including drivers licenses and health cards - have been given in some jurisdictions, making them fully documented." These IDs are being issued without citizenship or immigrant status, which remains the "undocumented" part in question. Yet another reason that Wikipedia should avoid vague euphemisms like "undocumented immigrant" (see argument above.)
12.205.149.45 03:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Why then, not just the word "Ironicly"?
user:Uraijit 12:15, 28 November 2006
This morning, an editor removed the following passages from the article:
"It is said that the U.S. is pressuring Mexico and paying for the deportation of Central American origin." [2]
"Restricting immigration in the United States has often been driven by the fear that the immigrants will bring alien political values that will disrupt or dilute American values, by nativism or general fear of strangers, by fear of wage and benefit reduction, by concerns of adverse impact on public services and the environment, or by security interests regarding criminals or terrorists (such as the anarchists of the late 19th century)." [3]
and
"The first laws creating a quota for immigrants were passed in the 1920s, in response to a sense that the country could no longer absorb large numbers of unskilled workers, despite pleas by big business that it wanted the new workers." [4]
He or she also added the text of several articles of the Mexican Constitution to the section on Mexico. [5]
I restored the removed passages and removed the passages from the Mexican constitution, since, in addition to being placed into the article without any context and out of any order, many of them did not pertain to illegal immigration into Mexico even indirectly. In fact, they seemed to be added to create the impression that "Mexico is hostile to foreigners".
I restored the removed passages because they were removed without discussion with edit summaries such as "removed vague claim", the enigmatic "legal", and "need source". The "unsourced" passages appeared to cite the Ngai text and contain crucial information about the topic. Having read about the U.S. pressuring Mexico and other countries to enforce their own borders more strictly, a tactic referred to as "surrogate enforcement", I restored that passage as well.
The editor in question then restored his or her edits (once with the summary "Rockero if you delete again without reason you will be cited as a vandel[sic]."), this time providing some context for the inclusion of the Mexican constitutional articles, and then left an unsigned but polite comment on my talkpage asking me to explain my edits. Hence this post.
While I agree that the article is not in the best condition (could use more information, citations, and global and historical perspective), it seems to me that the removal of information it more "vandal-like" then my restoration of the information. At this point, I am willing to concede to leaving out the bit about surrogate enforcement out until more research can be done since I couldn't immediately recall where I had read it. I would even concede to leaving in certain articles of the Mexican constitution provided that they are germane to the discussion at hand.
But the other passages are well-documented by numerous sources and ought to remain in. I won't edit--I don't want to get involved in any edit wars or even skirmishes-- and therefore leave it in the hands of the rest of the community to decide what should and should not be included based on these comments.-- Rockero 21:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
"Undocumented aliens" and "overstays" defeat the legal U.S. immigration system and punish law-abiding, foreign nationals who successfully complete the immmigration process, but then are forced to wait many years before being permitted to live or work in the U.S. The extended waiting period is a direct result of the "undocumented aliens" that are occupying jobs of the prospective immigrants in the U.S. without adhering to the established immigration process.
I didn't go back and to see who added this, but it is questionable to say the least.-- Rockero 07:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This material does not appear to be based on normal legal interpretations. Please provide sources which show that citizenship was not granted to the children of foreign nationals. - Will Beback 00:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reference for the Approximately 60% of illegal immigrants in the U.S. entered without a valid passport and visa by illegally crossing the border. statement? How do we know this?-- Herda05 03:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I have started this section. It contains lots of stuff from the article. I have not at this stage removed anything form this article that maybe should be in the new article, until things settle down. Please please correct/edit/add nice things to the new article. Thank you very much. Wallie 10:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Copied over much material, while removing the completely duplicated sections. Have also copied the text (unduplicated) word for word. There could bve still some duplication! So please check what I have done. Thanks, everyone. Wallie 19:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the POV tag to this section as I am concerned that it seems to be written from a non-neutral point of view. Specifically, it seems biased towards the 'anti-immigration' side of the argument, and parts of it read like an argument written to support that point of view rather than an encyclopedia entry. For example:
"Additionally, it is not only unfair, but also inherently racist for protestors to say that these illegal aliens come to America to do work that Americans refuse to do. The 18 million unemployed Americans, in addition to the millions of US citizens already working in these industries, would surely work in construction, landscaping, and the restaurant business, assuming that businesses were willing to pay more than the sub-living wages frequently paid to illegal aliens."
This is not fact, it is opinion, and something which is still very much debated in the US at the moment. I have neither the time nor the accurate knowledge of the subject to properly improve this section, but I'm making a note of the problems with it here to see if anyone else can in future. Terraxos 02:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Usage within this article and in Wikipedia generally is inconsistent between undocumented immigrant, illegal immigrant, and illegal alien. A central guideline should be adopted. A proposed one, with different versions recommending "illegal" and "undocumented," is at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigration). Kalkin 18:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I am seriously concerned about this article. Arizona is not, as the article implies, theo only state with immigrants crossing the border. People crossing the border between the US and Mexico are not all Mexican nationals--Mexico has a huge immigration problem of its own from countries along its southern border. This article is xenophobic and not at all appropriate for Wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.166.146 ( talk • contribs)
It is clear from the discussion and the edits that there is an "invasion" of this page by one point of view. I propose that we allow all points of view instead.
Morlesg 23:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. By adding the tag I was hopping to stimulate additional contributions. Obviously I have no read enough about the WikiPolicies. The “invasion” comment refers to an “editing war” with another editor who claims the US is being “invaded by illegal aliens” and therefore using the military to defend the borders is justified. Old stuff! Morlesg 16:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This comment on forced prostitution seems out of place, and it's not sourced. Should it be deleted?
Quote: "====Methods==== The so-called " white slave trade" referred to the smuggling of women, almost always under duress or fraud, for the purposes of forced prostitution. Now more generically called " sexual slavery" it continues to be a problem, particularly in Europe and the Middle East, though there have been increasing cases in the U.S." Unquote.
I put a {fact} on it hoping for someone to tie it to immigration. Thank you. Morlesg 16:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In the section on “Legal and political status” the following affirmation is unsourced:
Agriculture, construction, domestic service, restaurants, resorts, and prostitution are the leading legal and illegal jobs that undocumented workers are most likely to fill.
So I added the tag citation needed.
(well i know you wont be seen at the next fourth of july parade,you unpatriotic person you)
This text appears to make an original argument that is not appropriate, and which doesn't help the article. I've remvoed it previously but an anon user keeps re-inserting it. Any other opinions? - Will Beback 21:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry. Looks like we were editing at the same time; then firefox conspired with Google or something. Here's a list of what I the changes I propose: 1. Formatted most references in end note style. 2. deleted the following paragraph because it is not a definition of terms. Maybe it should be include somewhere else in the article.
3. Added “ neo-conservative historian” to describe Victor David Hanson (got those adjective from the Wiki article on him) 4. Added “proponent of immigration reduction” to describe Fair. 5. On these last two I have no opinion, but if we take the descriptions out of these two we should also take “linguist and progressive strategist” from the George Lakoff description.
Morlesg 03:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It was a technology problem. Not intentional. I only worked on the definitions section. Worse of all is I do not know how to repair the damage. Please do not kill me! Morlesg 05:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I got it back. Morlesg 05:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
listen,i would call you various offending monikers related to the words "hotheaded" and "sucker punch",but it`s late here and i have to get up at 6:00 a.m,
i guess in other people`s eyes i would be considered odd,i have very good relations with my boss and this "mexican-like" person i speak of,but im very suspicious of the both of them,living in a climate that tops mexico in both heat and frost,the way the people are,even a fairly easy going person like myself is effected to the point of being suspicious of anyone that isnt my own kin,id like to leave it at this if you could perhaps keep off the anti-american rhetoric,
your a cityboy,one of those kinds that likes rap music and thinks he is the next "50-cent" or some wasteful career like that,id like to force you to work in my job and circumstances,but i dont think that would be enough,every sewage worker,mechanic,and heavy working u.s citizen would have to be fired to show you just how much more valuable the work of an established u.s citizen is than that of a foreigner,mexican or not,illegal or not,or with a greencard or visa
there are so many technological solutions to solve any worker shortage that permanently deporting the illegals would cause (not to mention machines never need to be payed,and the maintnence jobs would be good economy) but because of the lazyness of politicians and some bigwig farmers,parts of our great nation,the most powerful in the world,are languishing behind other parts of the nation (technologically) because of the buerocracy,the politicians,and the bigwig farmers,this is just like back in the days of the roman empire when possible technological advancement was completely halted by the abundance of slave labor,almost the same situation nowdays,cept no slaves and disparitys are messed up 100 fold
"for the nation which is the most powerful,only when all parts of it`s economy and society are united for a clear goal,can it advance in trueness"
if you need evidence of this,look up some ww2 history and how it boosted america,all-around and not just in pocketts and sections
(refferring to kalkin since i just erased that first long angry speech of mine in this section)
"Since an “immigrant” is defined as a person who is legally residing in the
United States, the phrases “illegal immigrant” and “undocumented immigrant” have no meaning under law.
your really a bad debate guy if you think you can win something based on a false technicality, "illegal immigrant" refers to someone who is an illegal version of "immigrant",usually by passing through without the proper documentation,or overstaying on there alotted time (usually by a visa or greencard),and for another thing,(with the usual exceptions to the rule accounted for) mexicans arent very fond of intense cold,yet not only are europeans from the colder parts of europe cold-endurant,but the majority of u.s citizens have a basic cold resistence,hence why you never see alot of mexicans around the town i live once winter hits (40 below+,),hence any tiny little boost from illegals is battenned down abit once winter in the northern regions rolls in
The terminology section appears to be very American-centric. Some of it may apply internationally but it at least needs more international citations... While it does make it clear it's talking largely from an American POV (which is good), we still need to expand it do include more POVs (I wasn't the one who included the expansion template however) Nil Einne 17:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
yes,im slightly curios to see how other countrys refer to illegal immigration
With the recent passage of the detainee bill I came to Wikipedia to look up "legal alien" since now these people have been stripped of their rights of habeas corpus, but there is no Wikipedia entry. Perhaps someone would be interested in making an entry explaining the definition of a "legal alien".
Thank you Will Beback! I am new to the Wiki process and I thought my sig would appear automatically and close my entry. I'll have another go at it...
Gandydancer 22:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the necessity of detailing what terms the U.S. Government does not use to describe a set of people, or why we only list one item. They don't use "undocumented worker" either, so far as we know. Why do we need to point out to readers why this one particular term does not have is not used in U.S. law? Let's recall that this is not " Illegal immigration to the United States". Also, per WP:MOS, it is not appropriate to bold random terms. The only routinely bolded text is the title of the article when it appears initially in the text, and also major variant terms that redirect to the article. - Will Beback 10:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
A source which shows that these terms are used -globally- (that is, not in a few countries, but all around the world) needs to be added, or these terms need to be put back with the U.S. section, or they need to be removed. Because they are used in the U.S., I'm going to put them back there until a source is provided which shows that they are used globally. - Psychohistorian 11:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Under US terminology, the term "Wop" should be removed. It is not used to describe illegal immigrants. Further, the supposed derivation from "without papers" is debated. Plazak 17:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The citation that is given for immigration lowering crime gives a link to a site with a defunct permalink to the article cited. The citation needs to be updated or removed. - Brenden 04:17, 6 October 2006
The following was deleted, "n addition, illegal immigration has been linked to issues of border security and protecting the country against terrorists, although thus far there is no proof or evidence of such events occuring and is very unlikely, because most illegal aliens emigrate to the U.S. to increase their earning power. They do so by working the same jobs for less money than legal immigrants or U.S. citizens require, thereby deflating wages for unskilled legal laborers in U.S. This has enabled management and shareholders of corporate America to reap greater profits at the expense of the American working class. Hence, politicians are split over the controversy created by the illegal immigration crisis. Those politicians that are beholden to corporate America tend to side with the pro-illegal immigration movement and those politicians in favor of a living wage for working Americans tend to side with advocates of border security and legal immigration.
As crossing has been pushed into more desolate areas of the Arizona desert, the journey to find work in the United States has become much more hazardous for illegal immigrants.
Each year, numerous immigrants illegally flooding into the country become heat casualties of the arid Sonoran Desert. In 2005, the US Border Patrol reported finding 463 dead bodies of illegal immigrants. On behalf of a request made by Senator Jon Kyl, the Arizona Hospital and Healthcare Association calculated the cost of providing health services to illegal immigrants to approximately 31 million dollars in just one year. However, this does not take into account the millions of dollars that the illegal immigrants pay in sales taxes. The figure was given as a "bare minimum number", said the Association's John Rivers. The difficulty of the journey has prompted many immigrants who come for seasonal or temporary work to stay in the United States rather than face the difficult crossing to return home.
The Mexican government places the blame for these deaths largely on the numerous " coyotes" who abandon their passengers along the way. (In this context, a coyote is intended to mean one who, for a steep price, agrees to ferry illegal immigrants from Mexico into the heart of the state; see people smuggling). In an attempt to minimize the number of illegal immigrant deaths, t
Many proponents of illegal immigration see the flood of undocumented aliens as a benefit to Arizona's economy and workforce. Some see Mexico as a poor country that sends its tired, weak, and hungry to the United States for work. Mexico is ranked 87th by gross domestic product per capita. [13] While some people argue that the flood of illegal aliens has also accompanied a surge in crime, and has subsequently seen the prisons become even more overpopulated. [1]
Many illegal immigrants are members of Mexican Drug Trafficking Organizations (DTO) operating in the U.S. Mexican DTO's dominate the drug trade in the U.S. Approximately one third of the prison population is comprised of non-citizens citation needed;
The Federation for American Immigration Reform, an immigration reductionist group, estimates that illegal immigration costs Arizona taxpayers approximately 1.3 billion dollars every year. However the study didn't take into account the billions paid in sales taxes by illegal immigrants citation needed. Current reports estimate the population of illegal aliens in Arizona to be nearly half a million. The U.S. Border Patrol reports stopping that many criminals crossing the border in just one year, highlighting the extremity of the problem at hand.
According to California Republican Michael D. Antonovich, a member of the Board of Supervisors for Los Angeles County, the county loses $1 billion a year due to the costs of illegal immigration. [14]
According to the Urban Institute, there are several myths associated with illegal immigration. One of them is that undocumented immigrants come to the United States to get welfare when, in fact, their undocumented status renders them ineligible for any form of government-issued benefits, including welfare, MedicAid and MediCare, and food stamps. Another myth is that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes, when in fact they pay sales and property taxes (even when renting). Furthermore, the U.S. Social Security Administration has estimated that three quarters of undocumented immigrants pay income taxes, and that they contribute $6-7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim due to their undocumented status. However, the validity of this was disputed greatly upon it's release. citation needed" due to multiple problems including lack of source, verbiage, POV, and inability to provide a balanced perspective without giving undue weight to the U.S. (the material is better handled in the Illegal immigration in the U.S. article). - Psychohistorian 19:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Op-eds cannot be used to make assertions of fact, and are not considered a reliable source for generic statements, such as the ones recently added . ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
<<<As long as it is attributed as an Op-ed, it can be included. Without it, reads as an assertion of fact instead of an opinion.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
00:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a summary article, meaning that each section which has a main article, needs to summarize the main article. The current version of the United Section, is just a bunch of POVs and does not represent a summary of the main article in illegale immigration to the US. These POVs cn be move to that article, if relevant. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Read Summary articles. This is a summary article, meaning that there are main articles that describe in detail the subject of each section. As such, you cannot create a new wording or a new text for this section! What is needed is to summarize in one or two sentences what the main article describes in it. It that simple. What it needs to say is that (a) it is a contentious issue; (b) it is highly political; and (c) there are competing viewpoints about the effects of such immigration. Period. Then,. let the reader go to the main article to read about thes issues. The "summary" you have written does not do that. It simply paints the anti-immigration POV, that yous so obvioulsy profess. It needs to be written in a neutral voice and summarize the dispute without describing it. Leave that to the mian article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
First, stop using the edit summaries as a weapon, OK? Second, the burden is on you, not on me, as you have added that section: You have added that material that is NOT a summary of the main article. Summarize the main article, without pushing any POV, and we will be done. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's review history. I added content which disagrees with your politics. You deleted it as unsourced. I provided a source. You claimed it was an Op-Ed. I pointed out that doesn't fit the definiton of an Op-Ed and we reviewed several definitions for Op-Ed. It doesn't fit them. So, you created your own definition. Rather than continue pointing out what you were doing, I linked to the author's original research. You claimed it was just an opinion. I pointed out that a Harvard professor discussing years of his research is hardly just an opinion. You claimed that the section was too long. I pointed out that the reason it was so long was because you kept demanding more content and I commented out the content. You claimed it wasn't a summary. I pointed out that it describes, in brief, the economic, criminal, and medical issues of illegal immigration and why it is such a contentious subject just as the main article does. You replaced it with a discussion on terminology, despite the fact that the article already has a discusson on terminology. You claimed that it adds new terms, but are unable to tell me what terms you think it is adding that are new. You claim that it violates the description for summaries, but are unable to tell me specifically how it does so, you claim that it is anti-immigration POV because you are unable to provide a counter position to some of its points. Now you claim that, rather than telling me specifically how it is a violation of policy or POV, it is my responsibilty to read your mind and figure out why you think it is. Finally, you tell me not to use edit summaries as a weapon despite the fact that you have consistently made spurious claims in your edit summaries. In short, you are trying every possible tactic you can think of to have content removed from this article because it disagrees with your politics. Well, whether or not it agrees with your politics is the determiner for whether content belongs or doesn't belong in this article. - Psychohistorian 17:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This article lacks references and attributon to reliable sources. Most sections are written as an essay and are not encyclopedic in tone and in content, in violation of WP:OR. Some sections are clearly POV minefields and read as such. I have added the {{ noncompliant}} tag, accordingly. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The standard approach here is to mark content with the {{ Fact}} tag and give people a chance to provide sources, then, if they don't do so (typically within a week), the content is removed. - Psychohistorian 17:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose stubbing the article to the bare minimum, i.e. keeping only material that is fully referenced. Those editors that wanty to find sources for the material that is unattributed to a reliable source, can look for it and re-add it. Note that the burden is on the editor wanting to add or keep material, not on the editor challenging text that is unattributed.
As for the United States section, it needs to provide an NPOV general summary of the subject and the controversy. Adding specific opinions from specific individuals are better left to the main article were these can be fully explored in an NPOV fashion.
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The question both of you are avoiding answering is what -specifically- is wrong with the current content.- Psychohistorian 20:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
You claim, "it needs..", but you give no reason for why "it needs.." Provide that reason, because what it needs to be is a summary and that means summarizing the controversies - which it does. - Psychohistorian 00:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
AGAIN:
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
US section poorly written:
It presented specific opinions of protagonists (that are better left in the main article) rather than describing the controversy in general terms, and it is not an NPOV summary of the main article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
You object to the causes of immigration section. Let's start with that and work our way down. Here's the claims in the first paragraph..
Which of these do you dispute and what exactly do you dispute about them? - Psychohistorian 01:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Are we discussing the "Causes of immigration section"? if so, (1), (2) and (3) are unattributed to a reliable source. Find a reliable source that describes the causes of immigration to be such and you can keep that material. If no sources are provided that describe the causes of immgration in these terms, then they have to be deleted. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, to move the discussion forward, we'll break this section down so that you can pinpoint where the bias is. We'll start with the first paragraph.
"Illegal immigration issue has been a longstanding issue in the United States spewing immense controversy."
Do you think that's biased? - Psychohistorian 11:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
If we don't compromise and work together, the article will stay locked and we won't be able to edit it. Since neither one of us wants that, the question is are you going to start compromising or are you going to pretend to compromise by proposing versions which are exactly what you've always wanted and which I've objected to all along? And are you going to start stating what you specifically object to or are you going to continue to make vague complaints? I'm trying to help you pin down your objection, but, as you've said, "I will not take this path". So, I think your unwillingness to work together here is clear.- Psychohistorian 16:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
And if you actually read my proposal, you would see that I have left it open for you. I provided one sentence for the US section, and asked you to add another one or two. You may want to check the main article and find material that can be used in these additional sentenced for the summary in this article. Note that these need to be generic enough to provide a summary of the article, without asserting any particular viewpoint.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
17:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, so you don't want to compromise and you can't point out how this article violates policy without either being either vague or being inconsistent. I was hoping you'd make an effort towards dispute resolution.- Psychohistorian 11:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
AGAIN:
These sections are in their entirety not attributed to a reliable source. Unless sources are provided to support the statements contained in this section in a reasonable time period, these sections will be deleted. See WP:V
This section is partially referenced an partially not. Unless sources are provided to support these statements a reasonable time period, the unreferenced statements in this section will be deleted. See WP:V
This section is about a subject that has a full article in Wikipedia. As per Wikipedia:Content forking, this section needs to provide a summary of the main article, without asserting any specific view points. The mmain article's lead can be a good start. If the lead of the main article is not a good summary (it should), then a summary can be written
This is as specific as needed at this stage. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
AGAIN: As per WP: Reliable sources, not all claims require sources. Scroll back. We've been over this material. I already quoted this policy. You can't delete the content before the question of which policy is going to be used is settled unless you plan to abuse your admin priveleges as you have in the past. "this section needs to provide a summary of the main article, without asserting any specific view points", it doesn't assert any specific view point, so there's no problem there. - Psychohistorian 11:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The length of content in a summary is explained in the policy below which states, "..and a several paragraph summary should be left in its place." The structure of a summary article is explained below in the policy which states, "every main section of the article is reduced in size". The way to resolve POV disputes is listed in the policy quoted below saying "..The remedy is to add to the article - not to subtract from it." Whether suppressing facts outright (as you want to do) is a viable means of resolving POV disputes is stated in the policy below which states, "Many groups would prefer that certain facts be..suppressed outright; such desires need not be deferred to." - Psychohistorian 14:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Now you write "All what is being asked is that sources need to be found for large portions of the article" and "All of that is good, but the dispute is not about that, but about the lack of attribution to reliable sources to large portions of this article." This is another example of you being inconsistent. You said before that the problem was with POV, now you say that's not the problem - that the problem is lack of sources. So, which is it? Again, we can't address your problems with this article if you are unable to consistently and specifically state what they are. I ask you once more to state specifically what you think the problem with this article is. Once you've done that, we can start to address your concerns.- Psychohistorian 14:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This section is partially referenced an partially not. Unless sources are provided to support these statements a reasonable time period, the unreferenced statements in this section will be deleted. See WP:V
These are the concerns raised. Rather than repeating straw man arguments, please address these and we can move forward. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
) directly contradicts your statement that "the dispute is not about that, but about the lack of attribution to reliable sources to large portions of this article." Your incessant unwillingness to specify what your objection is is only proving my point that you don't have a legitimate problem with the article and are just throwing up vague objections in the hope that something sticks.- Psychohistorian 15:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Specifically,
Are there any other qualities you think are required for this section?- Psychohistorian 16:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It is my hope that this section will contain only references to Wiki policy so that we can have some basic framework on which to build our resolution of our dispute.
Something that most white people tend to forget when talking about illegal immigration is that ALL white people were at one point illegal immigrants. White people are not indigenous to the Americans and therefore deserve NO CLAIM on the land. Mexicans are the other hand, are BY DEFINITION a mix of Native American (or Indian as they call themselves) and Spanish. Mexicans are BY DEFINITION 50% Native American (the American term here referring to the continent) and 50% Spanish and thereby predate any White or Anglo Saxon immigration. If white people, who have no claim to the land now known as the United States, can cross an ocean of more than 2,000 miles and not only slaughter the indigenous people (trail of tears anyone? General Custer?) who is to say that Mexicans, who are by definition the children of indigenous people have absolutely no right to cross an imaginary line drawn by people who have no claim to the land.
The indigenous affair is obviously a political one, so that stupid people don't have resources for make a census properly. see.
http://cdi.gob.mx/index.php?id_seccion=660
They get the picture for say "Hey, see us!! we love our indigenous!" btw. they add something like "yeah, we are proud of our spanish heritage, but <somos más mexicanos que el nopal>" and lasting whith sounding "no somos como estos pinches indios rascuaches, da vergüenza verlos".
Please discuss the article and not the subject. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Legality is a property of acts, not of people, just as much as moisture level is a property of objects, not of ideas.
Thus:
In other words, the phenomenon we refer to as illegal immigration can definitely be called "illegal immigration", because it's immigration and it's illegal. But extending those words to label people who commit illegal immigration "illegal aliens" is not, I think, even a "feature" supported by the English language. It's a perversion of concept.
Even if you're breaking 25 laws at the same time, that doesn't make you an "illegal" whatever, it just makes you a criminal, felon, or trespasser. Not illegal.
This, I think, is a distinction that goes a long way toward helping this article being NPOV.
A burglar is a person who has committed an illegal act so do you propose calling him or her an uninvited house guest? The analogy is exactly the same as opposition to "illegal person." The basis for no person being illegal is merely the tenuous fact that presence of an illegal alien is a civil, not criminal, act. Law may well change in the near future to criminalize illegal presence. The 'no illegal person' argument is a tremendous overreach. Should our police policy be "You are free to go Mr. Bank Robber because the police only saw you in the bank vault at 2 AM, they did not see you break in." It's goofy, of course, but that is the analogy as it relates to immigration law. To base the controversy over illegal immigration terminology on such a distinctive overreach is a huge injustice to the English language.
I also want to make two small (and politically biased) contributions here:
The article just came of of protection and you are already edit warring. The US section needs to be a summary of the main article. Go fix that article first and then come back and write a summary for this article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
We can discuss the US article in its own discussion page.- Psychohistorian 17:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just done extensive copy editing, you may want to look at the page to determine whether the copy edit tag should come off. I suspect there are still problems that I didn't catch, though. Thanks, delldot | talk 07:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I remove the material attributed to Borjas. That is better suited for the main article. This section needs to provide a concise summary of that article, and not advance a specific viewpoint of one person or another. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
<<<Nope, I do not buy that, for the arguments already presented. If you cannot write a summary of the debate, that does not mean that it cannot be done. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW, this is becoming really tedious. Consider listening to two fellow editors that agree that your idea of citing Borjas in this summary is not the best way to do it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Psychohistorian, can you please specificy which material in the section violates NOR and NPOV? Thanks, - Will Beback 01:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
From the thread of discussion above, Psychohistorian ( talk · contribs) is (a) not willing to accept the fact thathe has a strong POV on the subject, but sees the oppposing POV on any other editor that does not concurr with him; and (b) He is not willing to listen and respond to well presented arguments, and rather prefers to engage in endless discussions while acussing other editors of bias, while ignoring his. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Somthing needs to be said about the difference between the "coyotes" who take people across the Mexican-US border for a fee and the Mexicans who come over to make money. There is a bit of dirt in the whole coyote business since it's both difficult and dangerous. Many Mexicans die even before they see the Rio Grande. The desert kills them by the lack of water and food. They usually hire a guide (the coyote is an experienced Mexican who knows tricks of survival) who will help them across the border into the US. I guess its a lot like the people who helped the slaves escape were vilified by the law. In some sense this is almost the same thing, this persecution of those who help the Mexicans cross the border. One thing is still true:Not every chicano is an illegal and not every chicano is legal resident. Keep this in mind.
This account of illegal migration is quite frankly so inadequate that I think it should be deleted. It is predominantly ethnocentric [i.e. USA + Western European opinion] and full of false information -- suich as Spain has 1m African illegal immigrants. Furthermore, the causes of illegal immigration into the developed woirld are not linked with malfunctioning labour markets and other issues of global capitalism. Most illegal immigrants find work, which is why they risk their lives sometimes, as in crossing seas and rivers. However, the majority of illegal immigrants are actually legal immigrants, who work illegally. In other words, they are technically tourists. All of the major scientific research concludes this: where is your discussion of tourism as a problem?? -- 62.103.147.55 13:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I though that is has been cleary explained: that the section on the US needs o be a summary of the main article. Instead, editors are adding specific viewpoints. That is not acceptable for all the reasons already discussed. We can have a paragraph that says "the controversy about illegal immigration to the US include assertions that such immigration has hidden medical consequences, which some sources describe as serious" and leave it at that. then, in the main article, explore all viewpoints related to illegal immigration and health. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Psychohistorian, from reviewing the history tab, it appears that you are currently the primary editor of the illegal immigration article. So in light of this observation I want to discuss a few things before I make corrections.
(1) Why is " Rule of Law" a link? What relevance does it have to this article?
(2) Why is " Filibuster (military)" a link? What relevance does it have to this article?
(3) Why is " Mexico" a link in this section? There is already a link to Mexico in the text of the article, and the link is probably more appropriate in the text anyway.
If there aren't good reasons for these links to be in the "See Also" Section, then they are unsuitable, and for the sake of this article's integrity, they should be removed. Agree?
(4) Regarding my Elvira Arellano edit, I stand corrected.
-- Chicaneo 20:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Victor Davis Hanson, neo-conservative historian and author of "Mexifornia: A State of Becoming" has argued that "undocumented worker" is a euphemism or politically correct term for "illegal alien." He states: "'undocumented worker,' for example, is the politically correct synonym for ‘illegal alien.’ [2]. David Ray, of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) a proponent of immigration reduction, has also criticized the use of the phrase “undocumented immigrant”. He states: “referring to an illegal alien as an ‘undocumented immigrant’ is "like calling a bank robbery an 'unauthorized withdrawal.'" [3]
That was on the actual Wikipedia page, but when removed the racist comment went with it, being totally new to Wikipedia I'm not quite sure what just happened.
I have moved this dialogue over to my user talk page. This discussion is taking up space and is not relevant to the article. If you care to continue or follow the discusson you may do so at my talk page. Psychohistorian, I will answer your question there shortly. Chicaneo 13:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
My questions is if there is a solution to Illegal Immigration. I know it can be viewed in many ways, but should there be a way for illegal Immigrants to become legal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonyleomargiotta ( talk • contribs)
Legalization of illegal immigrants is a policy which has been practised by almost all countries of the developed world, especially in southern Europe since the 1980s. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to include in the article and even more reasonable to inlude on the discussion page. The above replies to your question, Jony, are imappropriate, uninformed and somewhat intolerant. There should also be a discussion of the other policy options currently in use in Europe and elsewhere, such as deportations. You can find European Commission policy papers and data on all of these things, but clearly nobody looked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.103.147.55 ( talk • contribs)
You all need to make up your minds. Jossi insisted on sources being removed from that section. Now, Chicana is insisting that they be added.- Psychohistorian 18:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Are white supremacist websites acceptable a sources on wikipedia? I just noticed a citation that references www.vdare.com -- Ramsey2006 02:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The last 23 edits have either been vandalism or reverts of vandalism. Are we going to have to start looking at possibly protecting this page?- Psychohistorian 17:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
For the Repairing link to disambiguation page -
You can help! project, I changed the link to Quota in that section.
Should the link point to
quota share or
Emergency Quota Act?
Feel free to change it if you like.
FirefoxRocks
22:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
This page was recently added as a reference: http://www.vdare.com/sailer/060312_sampson.htm. I have doubts about whether it counts as a reliable source, since it doesn't have a references section and seems to state opinion as fact. However, I'm probably not a good judge of whether it should stay in, since I find the opinions in it to be highly offensive. Therefore, I'm leaving it up to you all to decide whether it should stay and what to do. delldot | talk 23:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted these two revisions by Flashstar. I felt that they did not adhere to WP:NPOV, removed useful content, and were problematic according to WP:WEASEL (e.g. "Many people feel..."). They also removed content from the lead and another paragraph, and It seemed like good content to me. I'm glad to discuss these changes further, but I feel that a change this large should be discussed before being made. Thanks, delldot | talk 18:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Sure, I'm happy to talk about it. However, I came online and noticed that the first section did not cite its sources. Also, illegal emmigration is not relevant to the topic. The first paragraph clearly needs to be changed. Can't I just change what I said and repost it? Why did you disable my history? Illegal immigration is clearly a big problem. It seems that the majority of wikipedia users try to downplay the importance of recognizing the true problems of illegal immigration. I did cite my sources. Finally, there frankly isn't any justification for illegally entering another country.
I am willing to compromise on the issue. --
Flashstar
18:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I am so harsh against illegal immigration in many people's views because a large percentage of hispanics in my area know no English even though many have been here for at least 4 years. In some areas near where I live, over 30% of the population is hispanic which isn't a problem. It's just that soon I feel like I am going to be required to learn Spanish since the non-English speaking population has exploded in the past 6 years. Also, my city has seen a spike in violence along with the increased hispanic population that seems to be coming from Mexico. Finally, illegal immigrants do put a huge strain on health care since my father is a surgeon and he is required to give charity to the 10% of his patients who are illegal immigrants let alone the medicare and medicaid patients who are usually not much better since he cannot refuse treatment in the ER. It's complicated, but I see first hand what illegal immigration is doing to our country. I just have a feeling that the average Joe on the street doesn't believe me since as of now, most of this is going on in the southern states and especially just outside large cities. This is one of the reasons why it is so hard to find many reliable sources of information on illegal immigration since most of the mainstream media likes to skirt this issue. Anyway, now that my ranting is over, feel free to flame me. :)
Btw: I didn't mean to hide a sentence that cited its source. -- Flashstar 08:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I just got a warning for vandalism on my account. I did not do anything like that. The most that I did was try to improve an article that didn't cite its sources. I cited my sources. -- Flashstar 03:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the following "journal article" used as a reference: http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf
Even a cursory reading of the article reveals it to be a non-scholarly and quite biased article, even to the extreme of using demeaning and degrading epithets like "anchor baby" when referring to the US citizen children of undocumented immigrants. Browsing the contents of the so-called Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons reveals a rather unusually high number book reviews of books authored by Ann Coulter for a "medical journal". For example:
-- Ramsey2006 21:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
If so, are you saying you would have preferred her to write, for example, "American hospitals welcome "first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US". Illegal alien women come to the hospital in labor and drop their little first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US, each of whom pulls its illegal alien mother, father, and siblings into permanent residency simply by being born within our borders. first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US are, and instantly qualify for public welfare aid. Between 300,000 and 350,000 first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US annually become citizens because of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside." That's really awkward. How about if people just focus on using terminology that almost eveyone knows the definition?- Psychohistorian 15:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Now, I'm not a medical doctor. I don't have training in medicine or experience reading a lot of medical journals. What I do know is that there are many academicians in other fields which do not hesitate to take a political stance, argue that all academicians have a political bias, and argue that a real problem occurs when, instead of identifying and being open about one's bias, one tries to claim neutrality. These academecians routinely publish and maintain academic journals. With that in mind, I don't think your argument is all that strong. In the spirit of these academicians, one could argue that beiing honest and open about their political views makes the JAPS less subject to abuse by bias, not more..- Psychohistorian 21:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
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This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Is there a wikipedia-wide policy with regards to the terms "illegal immigrant", "illegal alien", "undocumented immigrant", etc.? Illegal immigrant seems to be the neutral-er, middle road, but I'm curious what others think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandanar ( talk • contribs) 16:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Controversial subject improvement Many peope felt we should legalized the undocumented immigrants or not. They accuse undocumented immigtants broke the American laws. It was a subject that become our every day life talk. Why should help or not help undocumented immgrants. So this is debate is going on. s subject as well as others that are so laden with emotional opinion ought to be subject to a different standard for editing, one that slowed down the process and subjected it to more community review. --Unsigned edit by 4.131.222.208 10:09, 27 December 2005
How come theres no mention that the grand majority of anti illegal immigration people are white racists? Face it LATINOS TAKING OVER get Over It. How can something like this be neutral when there need to be open borders US=MEXICO IN 2007
You've shown you're no better than the people you oppose. I am against illegal immigration. However, I also understand the main reason for it is the magnet of employers and administration after administration that largely looks the other way. Usually the most annoying and vocal protesters tend to be racist on both sides of this game, and it is one. Why do you even type in caps? To make the "racists" more angry? am I talking to air?.....I think he/she won't get a notification of this response...besides...it is not NPOV, bottom line. RMartinez
RESPONSE Because we aren't...we of all kinds of people agree that we are a lawfull nation, a compassionate nation and we have rights under our constutition to have our government protect us and our nation. Weapons of mass destruction aren't only Artillery, Arms and Missiles.... It's.... the threat of Invasion of a Country, Potential passage for Terrorist, Digging holes and tunnels for unlawful passage into our Country, Over- staying visas, Unknown Illegals within, Vicious and Violent intruders turned loose on our streets, Violent Illegal Gang and Drug wars, Murder of Citizens and Government Workers, Smuggling Humans, Felons, Animals, Weapons and Drugs by the tons, Aiding and abetting criminal activity, Corruption, Mexican Militia crossing our borders questioning and trying to intimidate Citizens. Personal attacks on our Citizens, Property and Government, Illegal and Fraudulent use of State and Federal documents to obtain Money, Social Services and passage into and around our Country and bringing in diseases that threaten large populations. All of these atrocities result in Mayhem and Endangering lives of Citizenry. As a result there has been a magnitude of: Theft of people's identifications, buying, selling and using fraudulent Social Security cards, Licenses, Voter's Registration cards, Passports, Visas, Green cards and other Government Documents, driving with/without legal licenses, no insurance and a danger to all people. A crippling effect on States spending, Federal Government spending because of Illegals fraudulently obtaining State and Federal Social Services, Education, hiding from the government, tax evasion, unlawful employment and businesses not paying their share
What's the source on the 9/11 perpetrators? Two of them were granted visa extensions after their deaths, so they couldn't have been illegal when they committed their act. All were legally admitted as far as I know, but what's the source that all their visas expired? Bruxism 03:22, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I cleaned up the US section and dropped POV and incorrect information (such as the false statement there ever was a quota for Jews), and added an explanation for restrictionism. Rjensen 09:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Please, quotas for Jews did exist. Look it up in your college American History books--during the Russian Revolution and World War II, America did restrict Jewish refuges. -- Nissi Kim 04:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What Is Considered An Illegal Activity Under Immigration Law?
Here are some examples of the most common violations of United States Immigration laws:
Examples:
(This is not a complete list of violations.)
Where Can I Find the Law?
The Immigration and Nationality Act is a law that governs the admission of all people to the United States. For the parts of the law concerning illegal immigration activities, please see INA § 212, INA § 235, INA § 271, INA § 272, INA § 273, INA § 274, INA § 274A, INA § 274C, INA § 275, INA § 277, and INA § 278.
8 U.S.C. 1325
Improper Entry by Alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts; Any alien who -
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than six months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18, or imprisoned not more than two years or both.
How Can I Report Suspected Illegal Alien Activity or a Suspected Illegal Alien?
Each immigration field office has a specific process for reporting suspected illegal alien activity. You should first decide where the suspected illegal alien activity or illegal alien is located. Our offices have areas of jurisdiction that are generally determined by state boundaries. The three immigration related agencies -- U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection -- have web sites where you can find immigration information. They are: uscis.gov, ice.gov, and cbp.gov. All three are accessible from the Department of Homeland Security web site -- dhs.gov. --Unsigned edit by 71.116.176.231 14:34, 28 December 2005
There really should be a section on illegal immigration in Europe, where it is probably a more heated political issue than it is in the United States (where both main parties generally seem content with the status quo). Funnyhat 19:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
How does one become an immigrant (illegal or otherwise) in one's country of birth? - Will Beback 00:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
mexican mantra All of the laws should be enforced equally, regardless of race, religion, and/or national origin. That is with the exception of mexicans, and they should be above the law and exempt from the law. And the only purpose that a tonto gringo serves is to pay taxes to support the superior and noble mexican.
Anyone who disagrees with this philosophy is a Xenophobic Racist.
Pancho --Unsigned edit by 71.116.148.75 23:29, 26 December 2005
I think that statement is unfair. I disagree with your statement about Mexicans being above the law. Currently, legal Mexican immigrants get equal treatment from what I have seen. In the US, no one is above the law. If you are a legal US citizen, you are subject to the same laws as anyone else. I don't believe illegal immigrants should have the same rights as US citizens, because, well, illegals are not US citizens. Mexicans should not be above and exempt from the law because that would not be equal and would go against everything for which this country stands. I am not xenophobic, and I am not racist, I have nothing against any other race. Xenophobia is the fear of strangers and the unknown. I am afraid of neither. It is unfair to call one a "Xenophobic Racist" just because they don't agree with your statement. Wolfranger 14:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
And the only purpose that a tonto gringo serves is to pay taxes to support the superior and noble mexican.
Yet you accuse us of rascism AND treating people unfairly? As for mexicans being "above the law", most of the law can't really be applied to them because they AREN'T CITIZENS. Vizierde 18:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
"Crossing the border without papers is not a felony but only a misdemeanor (that is, a crime punishable by a term of imprisonment not to exceed one year). Mexicans who are caught illegally crossing the border are fingerprinted and immediately returned, unless they are a repeat offender, in which case they may be criminally prosecuted. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) made the hiring of an illegal alien an offense for the first time. American businesses have hired well over 10 million illegal aliens per year. (There is always heavy turnover in low-skilled jobs.) Enforcement has been very lax due to the efforts of powerful lobbyists such as the Chamber of Commerce, which argues the labor is needed by the American economy. Some major companies have occasionally been found to use undocumented workers. Tyson Foods was accused of actively importing illegal labor for its chicken packing plants, but a jury in Chattanooga, Tennessee resoundingly acquitted the company after evidence was presented that it went beyond mandated government requirements in demanding documentation for its employees. And Wal-Mart was accused of using illegal janitorial workers, though it claimed they were hired by a subcontractor without company knowledge. Philippe Kahn, who wanted to stay in the United States, created the successful computer software company Borland International without proper legal status. During his 2003 campaign for California governor, it was alleged that Arnold Schwarzenegger had violated his visa by working without a permit in the 1970s; he vehemently denied the charge and produced his documents. The employment by prominent individuals of persons without work permits has been an occasional issue in politics. Linda Chavez, Zoe Baird, and Tom Tancredo are among those accused of hiring illegal aliens, the resulting scandals sometimes being dubbed "Nannygate". Many or most illegals, of course, commit other federal offenses by accepting wages without withholding on "day laborer jobs" with millions of such transactions occuring annually, or by purchasing fake documents such as Social Security cards, birth certificates and driver's licenses, and many use fake social security numbers (knowing they will never see the money that they extra-legally pay into Social Security.) In addition to supplying cheap labor to American businesses, and day laborer services to individuals and families, illegal aliens also supply a significant quantity of cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine and, of course, marijuana, to the illegal American drug trade. Many experts estimate that over 25% of all major narcotics traffickers in the United States are illegal aliens." 18:40, 1 January 2006 67.124.195.107
"Irridentism, the operative "poly-sci" word, related to U.S. - Mexico Border Issues, is almost unknown by press,& public
Most nations located on a border between one cultural region and another quite different cultural region, tend to see illegal immigrants from that culturally different country to be among the least welcome, should they come in very large numbers. If they come illegally, and outnumber all other immigrants 2 to 1, this threatens by their very presence, the cultural identity of the counrty entered. This is usually seen as a "non-combat" form of invasion. Mexico's revolutionary hero, Pancho Villa, did in fact, invade the State of New Mexico in 1916, and killed a number of Americans. American Immigrant U.S. families from all other parts of the world must wait 5 to 10 years to allow a son or daughter to join their U.S. citizen parents. With world wide immigration, the U.S, will remain a "melting pot" english speaking culture. With mostly Mexican immigration, U.S. will become a cultural mixture of the two nations in all possible ways over the next 100 years. So goes the arguement of the out-spoken anti-illegal community on Mexico-U.S. Irridentism. In balance, it should be noted that Mexico sees the massive illegal entry from Central America in "irridentist" terms from their own perspective. "Illegals" are treated with little compassion, and are promply ejected by authorities." 2 January 2006 Nativeborncal
This information is pejorative and misleading, not to mention unsourced. In future please discuss major changes on the talk page prior to making them. Natgoo 12:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the statement at the end of the paragraph about illegal immigration in the US, ", as well as covering those who are left undeported due to the citizenship of their children.". It is blatantly wrong and unsupported either by examples or legal cites. I am a clerk at a California Immigration Court of the Executive Office of Immigration Review and, although it is definitely not to my liking, my office orders the removal (deportation) of illegal aliens with US Citizen children almost every day. Very often the children are removed with their parents. There are cases even where a single alien parent does not have a sole custody over the child(ren) and since the US Citizen parent is nowhere to be found to take care of or to allow the departure of his/her minor children, the children are placed in foster care for an indefinite period of time.
-- Emcho 10:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC) This is terrible! There should be a point where imorality succumbs to illegality.
Should there be a distinction made re the title, since "Illegal immigration" happens in many countries? The article is obviously from the US POV. 69.6.162.160 01:14, 7 July 2006 (UTC)Brian Pearson
agreed, but dont that you suggest Illegal immigration as the base? -- Herzog 02:11, 6 December 2005
The article says, "Illegal alien" is the official term used in legislation and by the border patrol for a person who has entered the country illegally or is residing in the United States illegally after entering legally (for example, using a tourist visa and remaining after the visa expires)." This is absolutely incorrect. The term "illegal alien" is *not* a term of art nor is it used in any legislation or official documents of the Border Patrol, Immigration and Customs Enforcement or Citizenship and Immigration Services. The term is pejorative and is used primarily by anti-immigrant groups and individuals. It makes no grammatical or logical sense, and is factually inaccurate: "Illegal" generally refers to criminal violations, while overstaying one's visa or entering the country without inspection is a civil (not criminal) violation.
In addition, as many people point out, it makes no sense to talk about an "illegal person." The correct and accurate term is "undocumented worker" or "undocumented immigrant." Without them, by the way, the U.S. economy would collapse.
Please correct the article.
"Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest." ( Illegal Aliens.US)
What part of "illegal immigrant" is derogatory? It is fairly accurate and unbiased term to describe somebody who has crossed any national border illegally. Honestly, the term "illegal alien" makes them sound as though they are from another species, and should be considered derogatory! The term "undocumented immigrant" can be used to describe an immigrant who has forgotten to renew their legal documentation, and as previously stated, is indirect and broad.
Of course, the term of "illegal immigration" is simply an opinion, as is the monicker "undocumented immigrant", just as racial issues come in opinions (it might not appeal to all audiences).
Also, to more directly refute the term "illegal alien", if you look up the word "alien", you'll find a description such as "a person from another nation, territory, or governized landscape". Well, it's evident that they're not from here, so in a sense, it's redundant, while the expression "undocumented immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" are oxymorons, because an immigrant particularly describes one who has come from another country to legally reside in another, and is synonymous with terms such as "renewed citizen" (whatever that means). So again, it's all about definition of words.
Why are the arguments for "illegal aliens" and against "illegal immigrants" and against "undocumented immigrants" consistently and entirely removed? The editor(s) always seem to remove those arguments based technicalities or because of their personal and PC POV. Of all of the edits I've submitted THEY ALWAYS SEEM TO GET ENTIRELY REMOVED. This exercise has been frustrating and clearly shows the BIAS of the editors!!! The end result seems to be that Wikipedia will become politically correct mush and not an authoritative source.
The opening paragraph was both confusing and false -- not to mention its numerous useless links. I tried to simplify it and to indicate the POV status of the terminology. Suggestions welcome!! Rjensen 11:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
"Illegal Labor. There is also the widespread exploitation of Mexican workers brought to this country illegally. These socalled wetbacks number probably not less than 60,000 in southern Texas alone....Up to the present, the burden of blame and punishment for violation of the immigration laws of the United States falls on the wetback himself. He pays the penalty in the low wages he must accept, the mistreatment he must put up with, the constant fear of arrest, the loss of wages if he is picked up, and the hostility of the local Mexican community. That he is a symptom of a basic maladjustment in the economies of the two countries and a victim of the feebleness of inter-American standards is not generally recognized. Moreover, it is not only the bootleg contractor and the grapevine headhunter who paves the way for the wetback. In a sense he is forced to seek better conditions north of the border by the slow but relentless pressure of United States' agricultural, financial, and oil corporate interests on the entire economic and social evolution of the Mexican nation. Inflation, rising utility rates, the agrarian stalemate, and the flank attack on oil expropriation are some of the major causes of the persistent exodus of Mexican workers. oldest quote: Agnes E. Meyer, "Southwest Farms Encourage Child Labor, Illegal Entry", Pan American News, August 1, 1946, p. 3. Rjensen 13:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The section on Mexico says "It has also received those who are fleeing their native areas for religious persecution such as the Russian Molokai and Christian Lebanese and Mennonites". Since the word "Molokai" contains a link to the Hawaiian island of that name, which has no connection with Russia, there is obviously an error of some kind. Could somebody with the necessary knowledge fix it? -- DPJ, 2006-02-27 05:37 UTC
This was fixed on 2006-03-10. mexicans should stay where they are....IN MEXICO....... we don't want you here
Illegal alien refers to the person crossing the border without authorization, and is the preferred US government term for unpermitted crossers ( see Google unclesam link. Compare with undocumented immigrant, illegal immigrant, undocumented worker). While we should not be US centric I think this is an argument why the two should not be merged. Calwatch 09:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Am I the only one confused by the term? Simple grammar seems to suggest that it refers to a person who's a) an immigrant b) illegal. Since illegal is an adjective usually applied to acts, not people, and furthermore anything that is usually considered "illegal" is to be stamped out, I can see how it would be upsetting to be called (or so it would seem) an illegal person.
I'm strictly concerned about the (grammatical) accuracy of the term here. "Illegal immigration" is perfectly fine: it's an act, an act of immigration, and that act happens to be against the law, thus illegal. "Illegal immigrant" seems to suggest that a person can have the property of being illegal; while there's hardly any danger of reasonably alert adults making such a connection consciously, I am worried about false syllogisms along the lines of:
occuring subconsciously, or in young readers who haven't been confronted with the term.
I'm not aware of any other term in the English language that's commonly formed that way. When someone speeds in a car, they're driving illegally (by violating the law that specifies the speed limit), but I wouldn't consider them an "illegal driver".
Is anyone aware of further examples of the mechanism that resulted in "illegal immigrant" at work? I believe the term violates normal rules about how adjectives work in the English language to make a political statement (roughly, that all the adjective phrases that can be applied to all illegal acts can also be applied to illegal immigrants).
I believe that "illegal immigrant" is too inaccurate a term for wikipedia to use, and a dangerous precedent.
Note, again, that I'm not criticising "illegal immigration" and such terms, only those that apply the adjective "illegal" to people, which is something that the dictionary definition just doesn't allow. "They immigrated illegally, so they're illegal immigrants" is just not the way language works.
RandomP 02:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the statement that "illegal immigrant" is improper use of the adjective "illegal". "Illegal alien" is not much better. To clarify, an "illegal driver" would be better termed an "unlicensed driver". There seems to be no better adjective than "illegal" that is predominant in the current public discourse on this topic. By definition, an alien person within a given country whose presence there is contrary to that country's law, is a criminal. Perhaps "criminal alien" is a better term? Would it be appropriate for wikipedia to title this topic contrary to the terms used in general discourse? I propose that "Illegal Alien" be maintained as the primary topic title, because it is the legally defined term (in the United States, at least), and because "Illegal Immigrant" is a contradiction in terms of U.S. immigration law.
Uraijit 12:22 28 Nvember 2006
The two arguments advanced here seem to be
I disagree with both. For an example of the latter, consider that "the abominable and detestable crime against nature" was, at least until 2002, a term legally defined in Massachussetts, referring to, I believe, anal sex. Clearly that wouldn't have been an acceptable article name?
For the former, consider "China" and "Ireland", both of which are used to refer to different geographical/political entities; while I admit those two are also confusing, and I can't really think of a non-confusing example that's still in common use, I have no doubt that historically, they used to be very common. I'm not really sure I want to remember the "general discourse" terms relating to miscegenation, homosexuality, or religious dissent, I think that such nonsensical terms as "unamerican" were at one point used generally, but still would not have been acceptable.
In essence, I believe if a term is rejected by a minority that's not vanishingly small that has something that might be considered a good argument, and a usable alternative is available, the NPOV doctrine means we should use the alternative. That's certainly true of "illegal immigrant" (a person who immigrated illegally, or an undocumented immigrant).
RandomP 19:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
"while others follow underground routes, such as the movement of African-Americans into free northern states and Canada through the Underground Railroad during the 19th century" is a big violation and so I've deleted that clause. Joncnunn 20:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
-- added the term "unauthorized immigrant" ----
unauthorized is becoming the U.S. Federal Statistical System's term for what formerly might be called "undocumented". Unauthorized (= quasi-legal + illegal) is intended to capture the legal status of the person.
"Those more supportive of the illegal immigrant community tend to replace illegal with undocumented, falsely implying that those who do immigrate illegally are not committing a crime. (In virtually every nation, failing to comply with immigration requirements is, by definition, a crime.)" This string of statements contains value judgements and is not factual. How can the use of the word 'undocumented' imply that migrants are 'not committing a crime', when illegal migration is by definition migration without the necessary documentation (visa)? -- 194.204.106.127 00:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Matt
I removed the line "Ironically, with the recent effort to track these populations, documentation - including drivers licenses and health cards - have been given in some jurisdictions, making them fully documented." These IDs are being issued without citizenship or immigrant status, which remains the "undocumented" part in question. Yet another reason that Wikipedia should avoid vague euphemisms like "undocumented immigrant" (see argument above.)
12.205.149.45 03:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Why then, not just the word "Ironicly"?
user:Uraijit 12:15, 28 November 2006
This morning, an editor removed the following passages from the article:
"It is said that the U.S. is pressuring Mexico and paying for the deportation of Central American origin." [2]
"Restricting immigration in the United States has often been driven by the fear that the immigrants will bring alien political values that will disrupt or dilute American values, by nativism or general fear of strangers, by fear of wage and benefit reduction, by concerns of adverse impact on public services and the environment, or by security interests regarding criminals or terrorists (such as the anarchists of the late 19th century)." [3]
and
"The first laws creating a quota for immigrants were passed in the 1920s, in response to a sense that the country could no longer absorb large numbers of unskilled workers, despite pleas by big business that it wanted the new workers." [4]
He or she also added the text of several articles of the Mexican Constitution to the section on Mexico. [5]
I restored the removed passages and removed the passages from the Mexican constitution, since, in addition to being placed into the article without any context and out of any order, many of them did not pertain to illegal immigration into Mexico even indirectly. In fact, they seemed to be added to create the impression that "Mexico is hostile to foreigners".
I restored the removed passages because they were removed without discussion with edit summaries such as "removed vague claim", the enigmatic "legal", and "need source". The "unsourced" passages appeared to cite the Ngai text and contain crucial information about the topic. Having read about the U.S. pressuring Mexico and other countries to enforce their own borders more strictly, a tactic referred to as "surrogate enforcement", I restored that passage as well.
The editor in question then restored his or her edits (once with the summary "Rockero if you delete again without reason you will be cited as a vandel[sic]."), this time providing some context for the inclusion of the Mexican constitutional articles, and then left an unsigned but polite comment on my talkpage asking me to explain my edits. Hence this post.
While I agree that the article is not in the best condition (could use more information, citations, and global and historical perspective), it seems to me that the removal of information it more "vandal-like" then my restoration of the information. At this point, I am willing to concede to leaving out the bit about surrogate enforcement out until more research can be done since I couldn't immediately recall where I had read it. I would even concede to leaving in certain articles of the Mexican constitution provided that they are germane to the discussion at hand.
But the other passages are well-documented by numerous sources and ought to remain in. I won't edit--I don't want to get involved in any edit wars or even skirmishes-- and therefore leave it in the hands of the rest of the community to decide what should and should not be included based on these comments.-- Rockero 21:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
"Undocumented aliens" and "overstays" defeat the legal U.S. immigration system and punish law-abiding, foreign nationals who successfully complete the immmigration process, but then are forced to wait many years before being permitted to live or work in the U.S. The extended waiting period is a direct result of the "undocumented aliens" that are occupying jobs of the prospective immigrants in the U.S. without adhering to the established immigration process.
I didn't go back and to see who added this, but it is questionable to say the least.-- Rockero 07:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This material does not appear to be based on normal legal interpretations. Please provide sources which show that citizenship was not granted to the children of foreign nationals. - Will Beback 00:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reference for the Approximately 60% of illegal immigrants in the U.S. entered without a valid passport and visa by illegally crossing the border. statement? How do we know this?-- Herda05 03:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I have started this section. It contains lots of stuff from the article. I have not at this stage removed anything form this article that maybe should be in the new article, until things settle down. Please please correct/edit/add nice things to the new article. Thank you very much. Wallie 10:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Copied over much material, while removing the completely duplicated sections. Have also copied the text (unduplicated) word for word. There could bve still some duplication! So please check what I have done. Thanks, everyone. Wallie 19:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I added the POV tag to this section as I am concerned that it seems to be written from a non-neutral point of view. Specifically, it seems biased towards the 'anti-immigration' side of the argument, and parts of it read like an argument written to support that point of view rather than an encyclopedia entry. For example:
"Additionally, it is not only unfair, but also inherently racist for protestors to say that these illegal aliens come to America to do work that Americans refuse to do. The 18 million unemployed Americans, in addition to the millions of US citizens already working in these industries, would surely work in construction, landscaping, and the restaurant business, assuming that businesses were willing to pay more than the sub-living wages frequently paid to illegal aliens."
This is not fact, it is opinion, and something which is still very much debated in the US at the moment. I have neither the time nor the accurate knowledge of the subject to properly improve this section, but I'm making a note of the problems with it here to see if anyone else can in future. Terraxos 02:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Usage within this article and in Wikipedia generally is inconsistent between undocumented immigrant, illegal immigrant, and illegal alien. A central guideline should be adopted. A proposed one, with different versions recommending "illegal" and "undocumented," is at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigration). Kalkin 18:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I am seriously concerned about this article. Arizona is not, as the article implies, theo only state with immigrants crossing the border. People crossing the border between the US and Mexico are not all Mexican nationals--Mexico has a huge immigration problem of its own from countries along its southern border. This article is xenophobic and not at all appropriate for Wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.166.146 ( talk • contribs)
It is clear from the discussion and the edits that there is an "invasion" of this page by one point of view. I propose that we allow all points of view instead.
Morlesg 23:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. By adding the tag I was hopping to stimulate additional contributions. Obviously I have no read enough about the WikiPolicies. The “invasion” comment refers to an “editing war” with another editor who claims the US is being “invaded by illegal aliens” and therefore using the military to defend the borders is justified. Old stuff! Morlesg 16:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This comment on forced prostitution seems out of place, and it's not sourced. Should it be deleted?
Quote: "====Methods==== The so-called " white slave trade" referred to the smuggling of women, almost always under duress or fraud, for the purposes of forced prostitution. Now more generically called " sexual slavery" it continues to be a problem, particularly in Europe and the Middle East, though there have been increasing cases in the U.S." Unquote.
I put a {fact} on it hoping for someone to tie it to immigration. Thank you. Morlesg 16:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In the section on “Legal and political status” the following affirmation is unsourced:
Agriculture, construction, domestic service, restaurants, resorts, and prostitution are the leading legal and illegal jobs that undocumented workers are most likely to fill.
So I added the tag citation needed.
(well i know you wont be seen at the next fourth of july parade,you unpatriotic person you)
This text appears to make an original argument that is not appropriate, and which doesn't help the article. I've remvoed it previously but an anon user keeps re-inserting it. Any other opinions? - Will Beback 21:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry. Looks like we were editing at the same time; then firefox conspired with Google or something. Here's a list of what I the changes I propose: 1. Formatted most references in end note style. 2. deleted the following paragraph because it is not a definition of terms. Maybe it should be include somewhere else in the article.
3. Added “ neo-conservative historian” to describe Victor David Hanson (got those adjective from the Wiki article on him) 4. Added “proponent of immigration reduction” to describe Fair. 5. On these last two I have no opinion, but if we take the descriptions out of these two we should also take “linguist and progressive strategist” from the George Lakoff description.
Morlesg 03:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It was a technology problem. Not intentional. I only worked on the definitions section. Worse of all is I do not know how to repair the damage. Please do not kill me! Morlesg 05:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I got it back. Morlesg 05:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
listen,i would call you various offending monikers related to the words "hotheaded" and "sucker punch",but it`s late here and i have to get up at 6:00 a.m,
i guess in other people`s eyes i would be considered odd,i have very good relations with my boss and this "mexican-like" person i speak of,but im very suspicious of the both of them,living in a climate that tops mexico in both heat and frost,the way the people are,even a fairly easy going person like myself is effected to the point of being suspicious of anyone that isnt my own kin,id like to leave it at this if you could perhaps keep off the anti-american rhetoric,
your a cityboy,one of those kinds that likes rap music and thinks he is the next "50-cent" or some wasteful career like that,id like to force you to work in my job and circumstances,but i dont think that would be enough,every sewage worker,mechanic,and heavy working u.s citizen would have to be fired to show you just how much more valuable the work of an established u.s citizen is than that of a foreigner,mexican or not,illegal or not,or with a greencard or visa
there are so many technological solutions to solve any worker shortage that permanently deporting the illegals would cause (not to mention machines never need to be payed,and the maintnence jobs would be good economy) but because of the lazyness of politicians and some bigwig farmers,parts of our great nation,the most powerful in the world,are languishing behind other parts of the nation (technologically) because of the buerocracy,the politicians,and the bigwig farmers,this is just like back in the days of the roman empire when possible technological advancement was completely halted by the abundance of slave labor,almost the same situation nowdays,cept no slaves and disparitys are messed up 100 fold
"for the nation which is the most powerful,only when all parts of it`s economy and society are united for a clear goal,can it advance in trueness"
if you need evidence of this,look up some ww2 history and how it boosted america,all-around and not just in pocketts and sections
(refferring to kalkin since i just erased that first long angry speech of mine in this section)
"Since an “immigrant” is defined as a person who is legally residing in the
United States, the phrases “illegal immigrant” and “undocumented immigrant” have no meaning under law.
your really a bad debate guy if you think you can win something based on a false technicality, "illegal immigrant" refers to someone who is an illegal version of "immigrant",usually by passing through without the proper documentation,or overstaying on there alotted time (usually by a visa or greencard),and for another thing,(with the usual exceptions to the rule accounted for) mexicans arent very fond of intense cold,yet not only are europeans from the colder parts of europe cold-endurant,but the majority of u.s citizens have a basic cold resistence,hence why you never see alot of mexicans around the town i live once winter hits (40 below+,),hence any tiny little boost from illegals is battenned down abit once winter in the northern regions rolls in
The terminology section appears to be very American-centric. Some of it may apply internationally but it at least needs more international citations... While it does make it clear it's talking largely from an American POV (which is good), we still need to expand it do include more POVs (I wasn't the one who included the expansion template however) Nil Einne 17:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
yes,im slightly curios to see how other countrys refer to illegal immigration
With the recent passage of the detainee bill I came to Wikipedia to look up "legal alien" since now these people have been stripped of their rights of habeas corpus, but there is no Wikipedia entry. Perhaps someone would be interested in making an entry explaining the definition of a "legal alien".
Thank you Will Beback! I am new to the Wiki process and I thought my sig would appear automatically and close my entry. I'll have another go at it...
Gandydancer 22:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the necessity of detailing what terms the U.S. Government does not use to describe a set of people, or why we only list one item. They don't use "undocumented worker" either, so far as we know. Why do we need to point out to readers why this one particular term does not have is not used in U.S. law? Let's recall that this is not " Illegal immigration to the United States". Also, per WP:MOS, it is not appropriate to bold random terms. The only routinely bolded text is the title of the article when it appears initially in the text, and also major variant terms that redirect to the article. - Will Beback 10:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
A source which shows that these terms are used -globally- (that is, not in a few countries, but all around the world) needs to be added, or these terms need to be put back with the U.S. section, or they need to be removed. Because they are used in the U.S., I'm going to put them back there until a source is provided which shows that they are used globally. - Psychohistorian 11:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Under US terminology, the term "Wop" should be removed. It is not used to describe illegal immigrants. Further, the supposed derivation from "without papers" is debated. Plazak 17:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The citation that is given for immigration lowering crime gives a link to a site with a defunct permalink to the article cited. The citation needs to be updated or removed. - Brenden 04:17, 6 October 2006
The following was deleted, "n addition, illegal immigration has been linked to issues of border security and protecting the country against terrorists, although thus far there is no proof or evidence of such events occuring and is very unlikely, because most illegal aliens emigrate to the U.S. to increase their earning power. They do so by working the same jobs for less money than legal immigrants or U.S. citizens require, thereby deflating wages for unskilled legal laborers in U.S. This has enabled management and shareholders of corporate America to reap greater profits at the expense of the American working class. Hence, politicians are split over the controversy created by the illegal immigration crisis. Those politicians that are beholden to corporate America tend to side with the pro-illegal immigration movement and those politicians in favor of a living wage for working Americans tend to side with advocates of border security and legal immigration.
As crossing has been pushed into more desolate areas of the Arizona desert, the journey to find work in the United States has become much more hazardous for illegal immigrants.
Each year, numerous immigrants illegally flooding into the country become heat casualties of the arid Sonoran Desert. In 2005, the US Border Patrol reported finding 463 dead bodies of illegal immigrants. On behalf of a request made by Senator Jon Kyl, the Arizona Hospital and Healthcare Association calculated the cost of providing health services to illegal immigrants to approximately 31 million dollars in just one year. However, this does not take into account the millions of dollars that the illegal immigrants pay in sales taxes. The figure was given as a "bare minimum number", said the Association's John Rivers. The difficulty of the journey has prompted many immigrants who come for seasonal or temporary work to stay in the United States rather than face the difficult crossing to return home.
The Mexican government places the blame for these deaths largely on the numerous " coyotes" who abandon their passengers along the way. (In this context, a coyote is intended to mean one who, for a steep price, agrees to ferry illegal immigrants from Mexico into the heart of the state; see people smuggling). In an attempt to minimize the number of illegal immigrant deaths, t
Many proponents of illegal immigration see the flood of undocumented aliens as a benefit to Arizona's economy and workforce. Some see Mexico as a poor country that sends its tired, weak, and hungry to the United States for work. Mexico is ranked 87th by gross domestic product per capita. [13] While some people argue that the flood of illegal aliens has also accompanied a surge in crime, and has subsequently seen the prisons become even more overpopulated. [1]
Many illegal immigrants are members of Mexican Drug Trafficking Organizations (DTO) operating in the U.S. Mexican DTO's dominate the drug trade in the U.S. Approximately one third of the prison population is comprised of non-citizens citation needed;
The Federation for American Immigration Reform, an immigration reductionist group, estimates that illegal immigration costs Arizona taxpayers approximately 1.3 billion dollars every year. However the study didn't take into account the billions paid in sales taxes by illegal immigrants citation needed. Current reports estimate the population of illegal aliens in Arizona to be nearly half a million. The U.S. Border Patrol reports stopping that many criminals crossing the border in just one year, highlighting the extremity of the problem at hand.
According to California Republican Michael D. Antonovich, a member of the Board of Supervisors for Los Angeles County, the county loses $1 billion a year due to the costs of illegal immigration. [14]
According to the Urban Institute, there are several myths associated with illegal immigration. One of them is that undocumented immigrants come to the United States to get welfare when, in fact, their undocumented status renders them ineligible for any form of government-issued benefits, including welfare, MedicAid and MediCare, and food stamps. Another myth is that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes, when in fact they pay sales and property taxes (even when renting). Furthermore, the U.S. Social Security Administration has estimated that three quarters of undocumented immigrants pay income taxes, and that they contribute $6-7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim due to their undocumented status. However, the validity of this was disputed greatly upon it's release. citation needed" due to multiple problems including lack of source, verbiage, POV, and inability to provide a balanced perspective without giving undue weight to the U.S. (the material is better handled in the Illegal immigration in the U.S. article). - Psychohistorian 19:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Op-eds cannot be used to make assertions of fact, and are not considered a reliable source for generic statements, such as the ones recently added . ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
<<<As long as it is attributed as an Op-ed, it can be included. Without it, reads as an assertion of fact instead of an opinion.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
00:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a summary article, meaning that each section which has a main article, needs to summarize the main article. The current version of the United Section, is just a bunch of POVs and does not represent a summary of the main article in illegale immigration to the US. These POVs cn be move to that article, if relevant. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Read Summary articles. This is a summary article, meaning that there are main articles that describe in detail the subject of each section. As such, you cannot create a new wording or a new text for this section! What is needed is to summarize in one or two sentences what the main article describes in it. It that simple. What it needs to say is that (a) it is a contentious issue; (b) it is highly political; and (c) there are competing viewpoints about the effects of such immigration. Period. Then,. let the reader go to the main article to read about thes issues. The "summary" you have written does not do that. It simply paints the anti-immigration POV, that yous so obvioulsy profess. It needs to be written in a neutral voice and summarize the dispute without describing it. Leave that to the mian article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
First, stop using the edit summaries as a weapon, OK? Second, the burden is on you, not on me, as you have added that section: You have added that material that is NOT a summary of the main article. Summarize the main article, without pushing any POV, and we will be done. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's review history. I added content which disagrees with your politics. You deleted it as unsourced. I provided a source. You claimed it was an Op-Ed. I pointed out that doesn't fit the definiton of an Op-Ed and we reviewed several definitions for Op-Ed. It doesn't fit them. So, you created your own definition. Rather than continue pointing out what you were doing, I linked to the author's original research. You claimed it was just an opinion. I pointed out that a Harvard professor discussing years of his research is hardly just an opinion. You claimed that the section was too long. I pointed out that the reason it was so long was because you kept demanding more content and I commented out the content. You claimed it wasn't a summary. I pointed out that it describes, in brief, the economic, criminal, and medical issues of illegal immigration and why it is such a contentious subject just as the main article does. You replaced it with a discussion on terminology, despite the fact that the article already has a discusson on terminology. You claimed that it adds new terms, but are unable to tell me what terms you think it is adding that are new. You claim that it violates the description for summaries, but are unable to tell me specifically how it does so, you claim that it is anti-immigration POV because you are unable to provide a counter position to some of its points. Now you claim that, rather than telling me specifically how it is a violation of policy or POV, it is my responsibilty to read your mind and figure out why you think it is. Finally, you tell me not to use edit summaries as a weapon despite the fact that you have consistently made spurious claims in your edit summaries. In short, you are trying every possible tactic you can think of to have content removed from this article because it disagrees with your politics. Well, whether or not it agrees with your politics is the determiner for whether content belongs or doesn't belong in this article. - Psychohistorian 17:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This article lacks references and attributon to reliable sources. Most sections are written as an essay and are not encyclopedic in tone and in content, in violation of WP:OR. Some sections are clearly POV minefields and read as such. I have added the {{ noncompliant}} tag, accordingly. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The standard approach here is to mark content with the {{ Fact}} tag and give people a chance to provide sources, then, if they don't do so (typically within a week), the content is removed. - Psychohistorian 17:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose stubbing the article to the bare minimum, i.e. keeping only material that is fully referenced. Those editors that wanty to find sources for the material that is unattributed to a reliable source, can look for it and re-add it. Note that the burden is on the editor wanting to add or keep material, not on the editor challenging text that is unattributed.
As for the United States section, it needs to provide an NPOV general summary of the subject and the controversy. Adding specific opinions from specific individuals are better left to the main article were these can be fully explored in an NPOV fashion.
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The question both of you are avoiding answering is what -specifically- is wrong with the current content.- Psychohistorian 20:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
You claim, "it needs..", but you give no reason for why "it needs.." Provide that reason, because what it needs to be is a summary and that means summarizing the controversies - which it does. - Psychohistorian 00:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
AGAIN:
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
US section poorly written:
It presented specific opinions of protagonists (that are better left in the main article) rather than describing the controversy in general terms, and it is not an NPOV summary of the main article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
You object to the causes of immigration section. Let's start with that and work our way down. Here's the claims in the first paragraph..
Which of these do you dispute and what exactly do you dispute about them? - Psychohistorian 01:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Are we discussing the "Causes of immigration section"? if so, (1), (2) and (3) are unattributed to a reliable source. Find a reliable source that describes the causes of immigration to be such and you can keep that material. If no sources are provided that describe the causes of immgration in these terms, then they have to be deleted. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, to move the discussion forward, we'll break this section down so that you can pinpoint where the bias is. We'll start with the first paragraph.
"Illegal immigration issue has been a longstanding issue in the United States spewing immense controversy."
Do you think that's biased? - Psychohistorian 11:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
If we don't compromise and work together, the article will stay locked and we won't be able to edit it. Since neither one of us wants that, the question is are you going to start compromising or are you going to pretend to compromise by proposing versions which are exactly what you've always wanted and which I've objected to all along? And are you going to start stating what you specifically object to or are you going to continue to make vague complaints? I'm trying to help you pin down your objection, but, as you've said, "I will not take this path". So, I think your unwillingness to work together here is clear.- Psychohistorian 16:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
And if you actually read my proposal, you would see that I have left it open for you. I provided one sentence for the US section, and asked you to add another one or two. You may want to check the main article and find material that can be used in these additional sentenced for the summary in this article. Note that these need to be generic enough to provide a summary of the article, without asserting any particular viewpoint.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
17:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, so you don't want to compromise and you can't point out how this article violates policy without either being either vague or being inconsistent. I was hoping you'd make an effort towards dispute resolution.- Psychohistorian 11:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
AGAIN:
These sections are in their entirety not attributed to a reliable source. Unless sources are provided to support the statements contained in this section in a reasonable time period, these sections will be deleted. See WP:V
This section is partially referenced an partially not. Unless sources are provided to support these statements a reasonable time period, the unreferenced statements in this section will be deleted. See WP:V
This section is about a subject that has a full article in Wikipedia. As per Wikipedia:Content forking, this section needs to provide a summary of the main article, without asserting any specific view points. The mmain article's lead can be a good start. If the lead of the main article is not a good summary (it should), then a summary can be written
This is as specific as needed at this stage. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
AGAIN: As per WP: Reliable sources, not all claims require sources. Scroll back. We've been over this material. I already quoted this policy. You can't delete the content before the question of which policy is going to be used is settled unless you plan to abuse your admin priveleges as you have in the past. "this section needs to provide a summary of the main article, without asserting any specific view points", it doesn't assert any specific view point, so there's no problem there. - Psychohistorian 11:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The length of content in a summary is explained in the policy below which states, "..and a several paragraph summary should be left in its place." The structure of a summary article is explained below in the policy which states, "every main section of the article is reduced in size". The way to resolve POV disputes is listed in the policy quoted below saying "..The remedy is to add to the article - not to subtract from it." Whether suppressing facts outright (as you want to do) is a viable means of resolving POV disputes is stated in the policy below which states, "Many groups would prefer that certain facts be..suppressed outright; such desires need not be deferred to." - Psychohistorian 14:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Now you write "All what is being asked is that sources need to be found for large portions of the article" and "All of that is good, but the dispute is not about that, but about the lack of attribution to reliable sources to large portions of this article." This is another example of you being inconsistent. You said before that the problem was with POV, now you say that's not the problem - that the problem is lack of sources. So, which is it? Again, we can't address your problems with this article if you are unable to consistently and specifically state what they are. I ask you once more to state specifically what you think the problem with this article is. Once you've done that, we can start to address your concerns.- Psychohistorian 14:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This section is partially referenced an partially not. Unless sources are provided to support these statements a reasonable time period, the unreferenced statements in this section will be deleted. See WP:V
These are the concerns raised. Rather than repeating straw man arguments, please address these and we can move forward. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
) directly contradicts your statement that "the dispute is not about that, but about the lack of attribution to reliable sources to large portions of this article." Your incessant unwillingness to specify what your objection is is only proving my point that you don't have a legitimate problem with the article and are just throwing up vague objections in the hope that something sticks.- Psychohistorian 15:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Specifically,
Are there any other qualities you think are required for this section?- Psychohistorian 16:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It is my hope that this section will contain only references to Wiki policy so that we can have some basic framework on which to build our resolution of our dispute.
Something that most white people tend to forget when talking about illegal immigration is that ALL white people were at one point illegal immigrants. White people are not indigenous to the Americans and therefore deserve NO CLAIM on the land. Mexicans are the other hand, are BY DEFINITION a mix of Native American (or Indian as they call themselves) and Spanish. Mexicans are BY DEFINITION 50% Native American (the American term here referring to the continent) and 50% Spanish and thereby predate any White or Anglo Saxon immigration. If white people, who have no claim to the land now known as the United States, can cross an ocean of more than 2,000 miles and not only slaughter the indigenous people (trail of tears anyone? General Custer?) who is to say that Mexicans, who are by definition the children of indigenous people have absolutely no right to cross an imaginary line drawn by people who have no claim to the land.
The indigenous affair is obviously a political one, so that stupid people don't have resources for make a census properly. see.
http://cdi.gob.mx/index.php?id_seccion=660
They get the picture for say "Hey, see us!! we love our indigenous!" btw. they add something like "yeah, we are proud of our spanish heritage, but <somos más mexicanos que el nopal>" and lasting whith sounding "no somos como estos pinches indios rascuaches, da vergüenza verlos".
Please discuss the article and not the subject. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Legality is a property of acts, not of people, just as much as moisture level is a property of objects, not of ideas.
Thus:
In other words, the phenomenon we refer to as illegal immigration can definitely be called "illegal immigration", because it's immigration and it's illegal. But extending those words to label people who commit illegal immigration "illegal aliens" is not, I think, even a "feature" supported by the English language. It's a perversion of concept.
Even if you're breaking 25 laws at the same time, that doesn't make you an "illegal" whatever, it just makes you a criminal, felon, or trespasser. Not illegal.
This, I think, is a distinction that goes a long way toward helping this article being NPOV.
A burglar is a person who has committed an illegal act so do you propose calling him or her an uninvited house guest? The analogy is exactly the same as opposition to "illegal person." The basis for no person being illegal is merely the tenuous fact that presence of an illegal alien is a civil, not criminal, act. Law may well change in the near future to criminalize illegal presence. The 'no illegal person' argument is a tremendous overreach. Should our police policy be "You are free to go Mr. Bank Robber because the police only saw you in the bank vault at 2 AM, they did not see you break in." It's goofy, of course, but that is the analogy as it relates to immigration law. To base the controversy over illegal immigration terminology on such a distinctive overreach is a huge injustice to the English language.
I also want to make two small (and politically biased) contributions here:
The article just came of of protection and you are already edit warring. The US section needs to be a summary of the main article. Go fix that article first and then come back and write a summary for this article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
We can discuss the US article in its own discussion page.- Psychohistorian 17:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just done extensive copy editing, you may want to look at the page to determine whether the copy edit tag should come off. I suspect there are still problems that I didn't catch, though. Thanks, delldot | talk 07:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I remove the material attributed to Borjas. That is better suited for the main article. This section needs to provide a concise summary of that article, and not advance a specific viewpoint of one person or another. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
<<<Nope, I do not buy that, for the arguments already presented. If you cannot write a summary of the debate, that does not mean that it cannot be done. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW, this is becoming really tedious. Consider listening to two fellow editors that agree that your idea of citing Borjas in this summary is not the best way to do it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Psychohistorian, can you please specificy which material in the section violates NOR and NPOV? Thanks, - Will Beback 01:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
From the thread of discussion above, Psychohistorian ( talk · contribs) is (a) not willing to accept the fact thathe has a strong POV on the subject, but sees the oppposing POV on any other editor that does not concurr with him; and (b) He is not willing to listen and respond to well presented arguments, and rather prefers to engage in endless discussions while acussing other editors of bias, while ignoring his. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Somthing needs to be said about the difference between the "coyotes" who take people across the Mexican-US border for a fee and the Mexicans who come over to make money. There is a bit of dirt in the whole coyote business since it's both difficult and dangerous. Many Mexicans die even before they see the Rio Grande. The desert kills them by the lack of water and food. They usually hire a guide (the coyote is an experienced Mexican who knows tricks of survival) who will help them across the border into the US. I guess its a lot like the people who helped the slaves escape were vilified by the law. In some sense this is almost the same thing, this persecution of those who help the Mexicans cross the border. One thing is still true:Not every chicano is an illegal and not every chicano is legal resident. Keep this in mind.
This account of illegal migration is quite frankly so inadequate that I think it should be deleted. It is predominantly ethnocentric [i.e. USA + Western European opinion] and full of false information -- suich as Spain has 1m African illegal immigrants. Furthermore, the causes of illegal immigration into the developed woirld are not linked with malfunctioning labour markets and other issues of global capitalism. Most illegal immigrants find work, which is why they risk their lives sometimes, as in crossing seas and rivers. However, the majority of illegal immigrants are actually legal immigrants, who work illegally. In other words, they are technically tourists. All of the major scientific research concludes this: where is your discussion of tourism as a problem?? -- 62.103.147.55 13:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I though that is has been cleary explained: that the section on the US needs o be a summary of the main article. Instead, editors are adding specific viewpoints. That is not acceptable for all the reasons already discussed. We can have a paragraph that says "the controversy about illegal immigration to the US include assertions that such immigration has hidden medical consequences, which some sources describe as serious" and leave it at that. then, in the main article, explore all viewpoints related to illegal immigration and health. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Psychohistorian, from reviewing the history tab, it appears that you are currently the primary editor of the illegal immigration article. So in light of this observation I want to discuss a few things before I make corrections.
(1) Why is " Rule of Law" a link? What relevance does it have to this article?
(2) Why is " Filibuster (military)" a link? What relevance does it have to this article?
(3) Why is " Mexico" a link in this section? There is already a link to Mexico in the text of the article, and the link is probably more appropriate in the text anyway.
If there aren't good reasons for these links to be in the "See Also" Section, then they are unsuitable, and for the sake of this article's integrity, they should be removed. Agree?
(4) Regarding my Elvira Arellano edit, I stand corrected.
-- Chicaneo 20:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Victor Davis Hanson, neo-conservative historian and author of "Mexifornia: A State of Becoming" has argued that "undocumented worker" is a euphemism or politically correct term for "illegal alien." He states: "'undocumented worker,' for example, is the politically correct synonym for ‘illegal alien.’ [2]. David Ray, of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) a proponent of immigration reduction, has also criticized the use of the phrase “undocumented immigrant”. He states: “referring to an illegal alien as an ‘undocumented immigrant’ is "like calling a bank robbery an 'unauthorized withdrawal.'" [3]
That was on the actual Wikipedia page, but when removed the racist comment went with it, being totally new to Wikipedia I'm not quite sure what just happened.
I have moved this dialogue over to my user talk page. This discussion is taking up space and is not relevant to the article. If you care to continue or follow the discusson you may do so at my talk page. Psychohistorian, I will answer your question there shortly. Chicaneo 13:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
My questions is if there is a solution to Illegal Immigration. I know it can be viewed in many ways, but should there be a way for illegal Immigrants to become legal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonyleomargiotta ( talk • contribs)
Legalization of illegal immigrants is a policy which has been practised by almost all countries of the developed world, especially in southern Europe since the 1980s. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to include in the article and even more reasonable to inlude on the discussion page. The above replies to your question, Jony, are imappropriate, uninformed and somewhat intolerant. There should also be a discussion of the other policy options currently in use in Europe and elsewhere, such as deportations. You can find European Commission policy papers and data on all of these things, but clearly nobody looked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.103.147.55 ( talk • contribs)
You all need to make up your minds. Jossi insisted on sources being removed from that section. Now, Chicana is insisting that they be added.- Psychohistorian 18:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Are white supremacist websites acceptable a sources on wikipedia? I just noticed a citation that references www.vdare.com -- Ramsey2006 02:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The last 23 edits have either been vandalism or reverts of vandalism. Are we going to have to start looking at possibly protecting this page?- Psychohistorian 17:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
For the Repairing link to disambiguation page -
You can help! project, I changed the link to Quota in that section.
Should the link point to
quota share or
Emergency Quota Act?
Feel free to change it if you like.
FirefoxRocks
22:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
This page was recently added as a reference: http://www.vdare.com/sailer/060312_sampson.htm. I have doubts about whether it counts as a reliable source, since it doesn't have a references section and seems to state opinion as fact. However, I'm probably not a good judge of whether it should stay in, since I find the opinions in it to be highly offensive. Therefore, I'm leaving it up to you all to decide whether it should stay and what to do. delldot | talk 23:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted these two revisions by Flashstar. I felt that they did not adhere to WP:NPOV, removed useful content, and were problematic according to WP:WEASEL (e.g. "Many people feel..."). They also removed content from the lead and another paragraph, and It seemed like good content to me. I'm glad to discuss these changes further, but I feel that a change this large should be discussed before being made. Thanks, delldot | talk 18:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Sure, I'm happy to talk about it. However, I came online and noticed that the first section did not cite its sources. Also, illegal emmigration is not relevant to the topic. The first paragraph clearly needs to be changed. Can't I just change what I said and repost it? Why did you disable my history? Illegal immigration is clearly a big problem. It seems that the majority of wikipedia users try to downplay the importance of recognizing the true problems of illegal immigration. I did cite my sources. Finally, there frankly isn't any justification for illegally entering another country.
I am willing to compromise on the issue. --
Flashstar
18:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I am so harsh against illegal immigration in many people's views because a large percentage of hispanics in my area know no English even though many have been here for at least 4 years. In some areas near where I live, over 30% of the population is hispanic which isn't a problem. It's just that soon I feel like I am going to be required to learn Spanish since the non-English speaking population has exploded in the past 6 years. Also, my city has seen a spike in violence along with the increased hispanic population that seems to be coming from Mexico. Finally, illegal immigrants do put a huge strain on health care since my father is a surgeon and he is required to give charity to the 10% of his patients who are illegal immigrants let alone the medicare and medicaid patients who are usually not much better since he cannot refuse treatment in the ER. It's complicated, but I see first hand what illegal immigration is doing to our country. I just have a feeling that the average Joe on the street doesn't believe me since as of now, most of this is going on in the southern states and especially just outside large cities. This is one of the reasons why it is so hard to find many reliable sources of information on illegal immigration since most of the mainstream media likes to skirt this issue. Anyway, now that my ranting is over, feel free to flame me. :)
Btw: I didn't mean to hide a sentence that cited its source. -- Flashstar 08:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I just got a warning for vandalism on my account. I did not do anything like that. The most that I did was try to improve an article that didn't cite its sources. I cited my sources. -- Flashstar 03:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the following "journal article" used as a reference: http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf
Even a cursory reading of the article reveals it to be a non-scholarly and quite biased article, even to the extreme of using demeaning and degrading epithets like "anchor baby" when referring to the US citizen children of undocumented immigrants. Browsing the contents of the so-called Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons reveals a rather unusually high number book reviews of books authored by Ann Coulter for a "medical journal". For example:
-- Ramsey2006 21:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
If so, are you saying you would have preferred her to write, for example, "American hospitals welcome "first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US". Illegal alien women come to the hospital in labor and drop their little first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US, each of whom pulls its illegal alien mother, father, and siblings into permanent residency simply by being born within our borders. first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US are, and instantly qualify for public welfare aid. Between 300,000 and 350,000 first child born with US citizenship by illegal aliens and, thus, serving to anchor those illegal aliens to the US annually become citizens because of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside." That's really awkward. How about if people just focus on using terminology that almost eveyone knows the definition?- Psychohistorian 15:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Now, I'm not a medical doctor. I don't have training in medicine or experience reading a lot of medical journals. What I do know is that there are many academicians in other fields which do not hesitate to take a political stance, argue that all academicians have a political bias, and argue that a real problem occurs when, instead of identifying and being open about one's bias, one tries to claim neutrality. These academecians routinely publish and maintain academic journals. With that in mind, I don't think your argument is all that strong. In the spirit of these academicians, one could argue that beiing honest and open about their political views makes the JAPS less subject to abuse by bias, not more..- Psychohistorian 21:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
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