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DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 23 June 2005 and 7 July 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)
Please add new archivals to Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo/Archive05. Thank you. Theo (Talk) 16:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I know this came out of the blue, but I noticed the tagalog version of WP doesn't have an article for INC yet. Once we get this article under control, anybody wanna take a shot at a tagalog version? -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 13:03, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone known whether www.incworld.org is active? I understand you can get a username and password at your locale for this site. Does any member has experience with this site ? Coffeemaker 23:04, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On the pro and con sites, there are to be no more than three of each, IAW with the decision reached per Wiki rules. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see lots more pro-INC sites, but we must still abide by the rules.-- gcessor 00:34, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As per Ray's suggestion of rewriting this article among the lines of Scientology, I think the INC's doctrines have been explained, sympathetically, and in-depth enough to warrant the start of this section. Keep in mind that a "Criticism" section is in line with the Wikipedia rules regarding religion by examining all points of view, and the articles on the RCC Roman_Catholic_Church#Criticisms as well as the target Scientology article both feature a section on issues some might have with these organizations' practices. Scientology#Controversy_and_criticism. Before I start, I'd like to hear input from others on which criticism meets Wikipedia standards and which does not. I know what some are going to say, please keep in mind that I contributed the majority of the section regarding Church structure and practices, which I think even the INC members will agree is neutral and sympathetic.-- Onlytofind 00:51, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've read over the entire discussion page twice, and I see exactly ONE word in a statement by Emico which, if taken out of context, could be seen as an insult. However, the rest of the statement is polite and considerate, and sets the tone for the proper context of that one word. Onlytofind, OTOH, continues to throw insults...and Emico is refusing to allow himself to sink to that level of conduct even in the face of those insults. Well done, brother - it's not easy to keep from firing back when someone keeps insulting you. Please see what I posted at http://thebereans.net/forum/index.php?topic=4422.msg123172#msg123172 .
btw, for Onlytofind - you're the only one on this discussion page throwing insults now. Please either correct your conduct - no more insults or false accusations - or we will have to take the dispute resolution route again.-- gcessor 19:09, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which parts of the article should be revised in order to remove this ugly hand? Coffeemaker 21:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I understand the INC likes using those verses, but it borders on trivial information and POV, especially as it is not considered canonical by the INC and it can be interpreted as supporting a particular interpretation of scripture. If it could be expanded, it might be useful to explaining some of the doctrines of the INC, but we have to be careful in backing up the statements by using the Pasugo or other INC publications if it does get expanded.-- Onlytofind 00:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
These comments are not helping us to build a better article. If you wish to argue about your respective honesty and probity, please do so on your talk pages, although I suggest that eb=ven there you will be diminishing Wikipedia and your own reputations. — Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 23:19 (UTC)
Anyone care to expand the "Worship Service" section NPOV ?
Coffeemaker 23:28, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which part do you feel is POV? It looks pretty neutral from what I can see.-- Onlytofind 01:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know that a lot of the statements in the INC article still needs to be sourced, and there is an on-going dispute (?) about the links. But the "totally disputed" tag coming from Onlytofind is really quite surprising. Care to explain what is disputed here? Ealva 23:36, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need the criticism section? All it really says is that some people disagree with this church, which shouldn't be a revelation to anyone who has read the rest of the article? DJ Clayworth 28 June 2005 17:36 (UTC)
Quite removing this is as POV. These are real documented criticisms: eg the jibe "Iglesia ni Manalo" is a dig at perceived nepotism. Newspapers are not interested in differences in interpreting the bible, but in the politics. Here are some sources. [1] [2] [3]. A skim of Philippine newspapers will find plenty more. (Unsigned edit by 195.92.67.75 21:10, 28 June 2005)
It's premature for you to threat as fact an issue that is pending in the courts. Until the courts decide, this is POV of both the respondent(?), and you for bringing it here. Wait for the decision. -- Emico 28 June 2005 20:20 (UTC)
You're using wiki for your own POV. You're ALREADY charging the INC of something that has not yet been proven to be true. -- Emico 29 June 2005 13:53 (UTC)
Emico, would you be kind enough to give a detailed reason to why the secular critisisms should not be part of this article? From what I see, it is because of stated critisisms being put into litigation. But many other articles in WP (outside of religion as well) add information about critisisms which involve legal action. The reason why it's put there is to show that organizations outside religion also critisize the INC. The court case itself proves the existance of secular critisms, which is basically what the section is about. The sources have been cited as well, so accuaracy isn't the issue. You can even cite that INC has taken the critics to court in reaction to such claims. Are the critics in question denying their claims? Have they rectracted them? If we have critisims from religious groups, why can't we have them for secular? -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) June 30, 2005 00:53 (UTC)
You can read my post. It's all there.-- Emico 30 June 2005 01:23 (UTC)
Please will those editors who believe that there are inaccuracies in the article, list those errors here as simple bullet points, without reference to who supports any POV. Each point should refer to a specific section, paragraph and sentence(s). I suggest that you do not sign these points. Please do not comment on the identified "errors" until we are agreed that there are no more to list. We can then identify the individual disputes and tackle them separately. I now open the floor ( Theo (Talk) 29 June 2005 14:12 (UTC)):
Iglesia_ni_Cristo#Criticism Failure to mention the secular criticisms (eg by newspapers and politicians) that are based on reasons other than disagreement over biblical doctrines. - dealt with mostly.
Can I take silence as assent that the secular criticisms are no longer an issue.— Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 16:17 (UTC)
The biographical references to Felix Manalo in the background information section of the article.
The uncertainty of parts of the article being accurate, due to lack of cited sources or if those cited sources are accurate enough to include in the article (e.g. due to the nature of the topic, the bulk of material about church practices comes from personal experience of INC and ex-INC individual contributors, so isn't verifiable in the usual Wikipedia sense).
Source requests have been identified as follows:
Could someone knowledgeable cite sources for these?— Theo (Talk) 3 July 2005 07:39 (UTC)
Is the term "
nontrinitarian" a correct description of INC?
:Which other terms are more accurate?—
Theo
(Talk) 2 July 2005 17:49 (UTC)
Accuracy/necessity of Footnote
Whether to include issues critical to the INC when this issue is not yet proven true.
Would someone who believes that there should be no reference to ongoing litigation please explain the basis of this opinion? We seem to have arguments in favour of inclusion but nothing clear and explicit putting the opposing view.— Theo (Talk) 3 July 2005 18:49 (UTC)
Why put something on an encyclopedia when we don't even know what the outcome will be? To be on the safe side, don't even add it until there's a decision. Then what's added is truthful and factual. Besides, things like this are not done in the Roman Catholic article, why do it here? -- Emico 4 July 2005 07:41 (UTC)
To my mind, the very fact that the Church has brought suit indicates how strongly it feels about these issues. The act of litigating is significant. If the Church wins, it is significant because it suggests that the Church has malicious opponents; if the Church loses, it is significant because it suggests that the Church acts to suppress valid comment. Either way, it is significant. As I understand such things, cases of equivalent significance have been mentioned in the Roman Catholic Church article and in at least one case the material grew into a fully fledged article.— Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 16:27 (UTC)
I edited the 'criticisms' section by: (1) Pointing out that prospective ministers are recommended by senior ministers before a decision is reached by the Executive Minister - whose decisions, BTW, are largely based on the recommendations of the senior ministers, particularly those who directly supervise the prospective minister. (2) Showing that the 'bloc-voting' complaint (which is raised SO often by Onlytofind) is not illegal in the Philippines (where the VAST majority of the members are), and that political endorsements by religions (also illegal here in the United States) is a common practice in the Philippines - particularly by the Roman Catholic Church which claims over 80% of the population there. (3) I removed the part of the 'press freedom' section that listed an unsourced claim. (4) I removed the section on 'Catholic Answers' since that website is already listed in the 'con' section.-- 24.16.167.121 6 July 2005 01:54 (UTC) Note - my apologies for not signing the edit. I had signed on when I came to this page, but when I opened a second instance of Firefox to the INC page, apparently my sign-in didn't carry over.-- 24.16.167.121 6 July 2005 01:54 (UTC)
To explain my recent changes: [User:24.16.167.121|24.16.167.121]]'s point (1) introduced a parenthetical explanation that duplicated an earlier part of its paragraph. I have commented out that explanation. On point (2), we need sources for these assertions. On point (4) I have restored the Catholic Answers criticsism and deleted their entry from the list of 'con' links, since I agree that they need not appear in both places but think it inappropriate that a reader should have to leave the article to understand the basis of theri criticisms. — Theo (Talk) 6 July 2005 12:00 (UTC)
Re (1): I wonder if there is a more analytical way of expressing this. Another way of looking at it would be that the INC hierarchy reflects traditional Philippine culture, which stresses family relationships and vertical relationships (which looks like nepotism and an unmeritocratic hierarchy to those who have different cultural assumptions). Tearlach 6 July 2005 18:59 (UTC)
Masterly phrasing. I suggest that you make that very rewrite. — Theo (Talk) 6 July 2005 22:29 (UTC) Every once in a while one sees a simple, clear, and succint statement which bears a truth not considered by others, and is the verbal equivalent of an elegant riposte in fencing. Well said, Tearlach.-- gcessor 7 July 2005 12:24 (UTC)
The doxology sung by the INC is not a song of praise to the trinity. As been said many times on this talk page, the INC do not believe in the trinity and regards it as a false doctrine. So the insinuation that the INC worship the trinity is insulting. The first part of the wikipedia article for doxology reads "A doxology is a short hymn of praise to God the Trinity", therefore the wikipedia article do not fit the INC. The wiktionary entry is a better fit. Similarly for benediction. What is the reason for your preference in using wikipedia instean of wiktionary when wiktionary gives a better, and more neutral definition?
As far as the Christian article is concerned, this article was used as an argument against my insistence on not labeling the INC as nontrinitarian. I removed the wikipedia link for christian, and added the dictionary definition as footnote, hoping this will satisfy everyone. Quite honestly, I prefer the dictionary entry. It's much more closer to the true meaning of the word. -- Emico 4 July 2005 07:01 (UTC)
Great minds think alike! I have added new sections to Doxology to further emphasise the existence of forms that are not trinitarian. I avoided the phrase 'nontrinitarian' in deference to INC preferences. Since this now eliminates Emico's objection, I have redirected the link in 'our' article to the wikipedia article instead of Wiktionary. If Emico is happy with this, perhaps we could do the same to benediction. I do not understand Emico's reservations about the Christianity article but I think that it would be a distraction to hold that debate here. I will take up that issue at User talk:Emico.— Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 13:41 (UTC)
Whether to continue to include web links when owner are anonymous.
Based on the events which have been occuring over last few months, I feel that it's time to get some outside help with this article. I have posted a Request for comment for the entire INC article, encouraging some new outside contributers. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) June 30, 2005 01:41 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting my english, wether vs whether. I checked the dictionary for wether, ouch.
enjoy your 4th. I'm going on hiatus -- Emico 4 July 2005 08:16 (UTC)
I changed the intro "does not accept the ecumenical councils that adopted the doctrine of the Trinity" to "does not accept the doctrine of the Trinity". The first statement was not accurate enough - it is perfectly possible to not accept the authority of ecumenical councils and still to accept the doctrine of the Trinity (this is true of very many Protestant churches, and most Anabaptists). DJ Clayworth 5 July 2005 13:52 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 23 June 2005 and 7 July 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)
Please add new archivals to Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo/Archive05. Thank you. Theo (Talk) 16:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I know this came out of the blue, but I noticed the tagalog version of WP doesn't have an article for INC yet. Once we get this article under control, anybody wanna take a shot at a tagalog version? -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 13:03, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone known whether www.incworld.org is active? I understand you can get a username and password at your locale for this site. Does any member has experience with this site ? Coffeemaker 23:04, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On the pro and con sites, there are to be no more than three of each, IAW with the decision reached per Wiki rules. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see lots more pro-INC sites, but we must still abide by the rules.-- gcessor 00:34, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As per Ray's suggestion of rewriting this article among the lines of Scientology, I think the INC's doctrines have been explained, sympathetically, and in-depth enough to warrant the start of this section. Keep in mind that a "Criticism" section is in line with the Wikipedia rules regarding religion by examining all points of view, and the articles on the RCC Roman_Catholic_Church#Criticisms as well as the target Scientology article both feature a section on issues some might have with these organizations' practices. Scientology#Controversy_and_criticism. Before I start, I'd like to hear input from others on which criticism meets Wikipedia standards and which does not. I know what some are going to say, please keep in mind that I contributed the majority of the section regarding Church structure and practices, which I think even the INC members will agree is neutral and sympathetic.-- Onlytofind 00:51, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've read over the entire discussion page twice, and I see exactly ONE word in a statement by Emico which, if taken out of context, could be seen as an insult. However, the rest of the statement is polite and considerate, and sets the tone for the proper context of that one word. Onlytofind, OTOH, continues to throw insults...and Emico is refusing to allow himself to sink to that level of conduct even in the face of those insults. Well done, brother - it's not easy to keep from firing back when someone keeps insulting you. Please see what I posted at http://thebereans.net/forum/index.php?topic=4422.msg123172#msg123172 .
btw, for Onlytofind - you're the only one on this discussion page throwing insults now. Please either correct your conduct - no more insults or false accusations - or we will have to take the dispute resolution route again.-- gcessor 19:09, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which parts of the article should be revised in order to remove this ugly hand? Coffeemaker 21:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I understand the INC likes using those verses, but it borders on trivial information and POV, especially as it is not considered canonical by the INC and it can be interpreted as supporting a particular interpretation of scripture. If it could be expanded, it might be useful to explaining some of the doctrines of the INC, but we have to be careful in backing up the statements by using the Pasugo or other INC publications if it does get expanded.-- Onlytofind 00:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
These comments are not helping us to build a better article. If you wish to argue about your respective honesty and probity, please do so on your talk pages, although I suggest that eb=ven there you will be diminishing Wikipedia and your own reputations. — Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 23:19 (UTC)
Anyone care to expand the "Worship Service" section NPOV ?
Coffeemaker 23:28, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which part do you feel is POV? It looks pretty neutral from what I can see.-- Onlytofind 01:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know that a lot of the statements in the INC article still needs to be sourced, and there is an on-going dispute (?) about the links. But the "totally disputed" tag coming from Onlytofind is really quite surprising. Care to explain what is disputed here? Ealva 23:36, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need the criticism section? All it really says is that some people disagree with this church, which shouldn't be a revelation to anyone who has read the rest of the article? DJ Clayworth 28 June 2005 17:36 (UTC)
Quite removing this is as POV. These are real documented criticisms: eg the jibe "Iglesia ni Manalo" is a dig at perceived nepotism. Newspapers are not interested in differences in interpreting the bible, but in the politics. Here are some sources. [1] [2] [3]. A skim of Philippine newspapers will find plenty more. (Unsigned edit by 195.92.67.75 21:10, 28 June 2005)
It's premature for you to threat as fact an issue that is pending in the courts. Until the courts decide, this is POV of both the respondent(?), and you for bringing it here. Wait for the decision. -- Emico 28 June 2005 20:20 (UTC)
You're using wiki for your own POV. You're ALREADY charging the INC of something that has not yet been proven to be true. -- Emico 29 June 2005 13:53 (UTC)
Emico, would you be kind enough to give a detailed reason to why the secular critisisms should not be part of this article? From what I see, it is because of stated critisisms being put into litigation. But many other articles in WP (outside of religion as well) add information about critisisms which involve legal action. The reason why it's put there is to show that organizations outside religion also critisize the INC. The court case itself proves the existance of secular critisms, which is basically what the section is about. The sources have been cited as well, so accuaracy isn't the issue. You can even cite that INC has taken the critics to court in reaction to such claims. Are the critics in question denying their claims? Have they rectracted them? If we have critisims from religious groups, why can't we have them for secular? -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) June 30, 2005 00:53 (UTC)
You can read my post. It's all there.-- Emico 30 June 2005 01:23 (UTC)
Please will those editors who believe that there are inaccuracies in the article, list those errors here as simple bullet points, without reference to who supports any POV. Each point should refer to a specific section, paragraph and sentence(s). I suggest that you do not sign these points. Please do not comment on the identified "errors" until we are agreed that there are no more to list. We can then identify the individual disputes and tackle them separately. I now open the floor ( Theo (Talk) 29 June 2005 14:12 (UTC)):
Iglesia_ni_Cristo#Criticism Failure to mention the secular criticisms (eg by newspapers and politicians) that are based on reasons other than disagreement over biblical doctrines. - dealt with mostly.
Can I take silence as assent that the secular criticisms are no longer an issue.— Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 16:17 (UTC)
The biographical references to Felix Manalo in the background information section of the article.
The uncertainty of parts of the article being accurate, due to lack of cited sources or if those cited sources are accurate enough to include in the article (e.g. due to the nature of the topic, the bulk of material about church practices comes from personal experience of INC and ex-INC individual contributors, so isn't verifiable in the usual Wikipedia sense).
Source requests have been identified as follows:
Could someone knowledgeable cite sources for these?— Theo (Talk) 3 July 2005 07:39 (UTC)
Is the term "
nontrinitarian" a correct description of INC?
:Which other terms are more accurate?—
Theo
(Talk) 2 July 2005 17:49 (UTC)
Accuracy/necessity of Footnote
Whether to include issues critical to the INC when this issue is not yet proven true.
Would someone who believes that there should be no reference to ongoing litigation please explain the basis of this opinion? We seem to have arguments in favour of inclusion but nothing clear and explicit putting the opposing view.— Theo (Talk) 3 July 2005 18:49 (UTC)
Why put something on an encyclopedia when we don't even know what the outcome will be? To be on the safe side, don't even add it until there's a decision. Then what's added is truthful and factual. Besides, things like this are not done in the Roman Catholic article, why do it here? -- Emico 4 July 2005 07:41 (UTC)
To my mind, the very fact that the Church has brought suit indicates how strongly it feels about these issues. The act of litigating is significant. If the Church wins, it is significant because it suggests that the Church has malicious opponents; if the Church loses, it is significant because it suggests that the Church acts to suppress valid comment. Either way, it is significant. As I understand such things, cases of equivalent significance have been mentioned in the Roman Catholic Church article and in at least one case the material grew into a fully fledged article.— Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 16:27 (UTC)
I edited the 'criticisms' section by: (1) Pointing out that prospective ministers are recommended by senior ministers before a decision is reached by the Executive Minister - whose decisions, BTW, are largely based on the recommendations of the senior ministers, particularly those who directly supervise the prospective minister. (2) Showing that the 'bloc-voting' complaint (which is raised SO often by Onlytofind) is not illegal in the Philippines (where the VAST majority of the members are), and that political endorsements by religions (also illegal here in the United States) is a common practice in the Philippines - particularly by the Roman Catholic Church which claims over 80% of the population there. (3) I removed the part of the 'press freedom' section that listed an unsourced claim. (4) I removed the section on 'Catholic Answers' since that website is already listed in the 'con' section.-- 24.16.167.121 6 July 2005 01:54 (UTC) Note - my apologies for not signing the edit. I had signed on when I came to this page, but when I opened a second instance of Firefox to the INC page, apparently my sign-in didn't carry over.-- 24.16.167.121 6 July 2005 01:54 (UTC)
To explain my recent changes: [User:24.16.167.121|24.16.167.121]]'s point (1) introduced a parenthetical explanation that duplicated an earlier part of its paragraph. I have commented out that explanation. On point (2), we need sources for these assertions. On point (4) I have restored the Catholic Answers criticsism and deleted their entry from the list of 'con' links, since I agree that they need not appear in both places but think it inappropriate that a reader should have to leave the article to understand the basis of theri criticisms. — Theo (Talk) 6 July 2005 12:00 (UTC)
Re (1): I wonder if there is a more analytical way of expressing this. Another way of looking at it would be that the INC hierarchy reflects traditional Philippine culture, which stresses family relationships and vertical relationships (which looks like nepotism and an unmeritocratic hierarchy to those who have different cultural assumptions). Tearlach 6 July 2005 18:59 (UTC)
Masterly phrasing. I suggest that you make that very rewrite. — Theo (Talk) 6 July 2005 22:29 (UTC) Every once in a while one sees a simple, clear, and succint statement which bears a truth not considered by others, and is the verbal equivalent of an elegant riposte in fencing. Well said, Tearlach.-- gcessor 7 July 2005 12:24 (UTC)
The doxology sung by the INC is not a song of praise to the trinity. As been said many times on this talk page, the INC do not believe in the trinity and regards it as a false doctrine. So the insinuation that the INC worship the trinity is insulting. The first part of the wikipedia article for doxology reads "A doxology is a short hymn of praise to God the Trinity", therefore the wikipedia article do not fit the INC. The wiktionary entry is a better fit. Similarly for benediction. What is the reason for your preference in using wikipedia instean of wiktionary when wiktionary gives a better, and more neutral definition?
As far as the Christian article is concerned, this article was used as an argument against my insistence on not labeling the INC as nontrinitarian. I removed the wikipedia link for christian, and added the dictionary definition as footnote, hoping this will satisfy everyone. Quite honestly, I prefer the dictionary entry. It's much more closer to the true meaning of the word. -- Emico 4 July 2005 07:01 (UTC)
Great minds think alike! I have added new sections to Doxology to further emphasise the existence of forms that are not trinitarian. I avoided the phrase 'nontrinitarian' in deference to INC preferences. Since this now eliminates Emico's objection, I have redirected the link in 'our' article to the wikipedia article instead of Wiktionary. If Emico is happy with this, perhaps we could do the same to benediction. I do not understand Emico's reservations about the Christianity article but I think that it would be a distraction to hold that debate here. I will take up that issue at User talk:Emico.— Theo (Talk) 4 July 2005 13:41 (UTC)
Whether to continue to include web links when owner are anonymous.
Based on the events which have been occuring over last few months, I feel that it's time to get some outside help with this article. I have posted a Request for comment for the entire INC article, encouraging some new outside contributers. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) June 30, 2005 01:41 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting my english, wether vs whether. I checked the dictionary for wether, ouch.
enjoy your 4th. I'm going on hiatus -- Emico 4 July 2005 08:16 (UTC)
I changed the intro "does not accept the ecumenical councils that adopted the doctrine of the Trinity" to "does not accept the doctrine of the Trinity". The first statement was not accurate enough - it is perfectly possible to not accept the authority of ecumenical councils and still to accept the doctrine of the Trinity (this is true of very many Protestant churches, and most Anabaptists). DJ Clayworth 5 July 2005 13:52 (UTC)