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All right, this article is taking a very biased pot shot at Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy by equating idolatry with veneration. I'm steamed, so I'm not going to start making changes right now. I'm going to give cooler heads a chance to do that, preferably the original authors and editors of this piece. I suggest the article distinguish between Protestants and Christians.
If the current text stays, I'm very tempted to insert a rebuttal paragraph or two indicating how the Protestant stance defining idolatry as it does, also effectively denies the doctrine of the Incarnation, just as John of Damascus said it was wont to do back in the eighth century. Wesley 22:40 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
This is not remotely NPOV. Michael Hardy 23:10 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
The middle to bottom needs work, no doubt, but what do you mean /NPOV?- 豎眩
NPOV = "neutral point of view". See the discussion of this in the introductory pages. Michael Hardy 23:12 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Nice... Sign your name with three ~'s next time...-- 豎眩 23:19 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC) Sue?
Sorry Susan... didnt see you editing... - 豎眩
It appears there is an edit disagreement.
Ah youre actually talking things over now... how honored we are that you talks to ussss. - 豎眩
yesh Susan Mason
I agree the sin word is best avoided. So is fetishim, for that matter, which is really the phiosophizing of the habitual and indulgent... related, and worty of aheader, but not pg 1 materiale.. - 豎眩
the fetishism page reads like it is something we would want to mention:
I understand your fetish for fetishim here but its POV, and way down the list as far as idolatric concepts go... think bigger. much bigger... I have to take a ... - 豎眩
So... article contends that Hinduism is not idolatry because it merely uses idols as a representation of a divine being, like Christians use the cross, statues of Jesus or Mary, etc. But is this latter practice not also considered idolatry by some? For example, Jehovah's Witnesses? Or am I mistaken? Graft
You are correct. Susan Mason
Whether something is idolatry or not is purely POV. Susan Mason
RK is introducing POV material. Christianity does not demand worship of God via a cross anymore than Judaism demands woship of God via a dradle or kosher kitchen. Also he is denying a Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition. Susan Mason
Susan wrotes "christianity does not demand idolization of a cross". Huh? Susan, stop attacking statements that no one has made. What I said was that many Christians pray to God via the cross or crucifix, and many venerate saints through statues. Please do not write about topics which you are clearly ignorant of.
Please do not be hostile, arrogant, rude, condenscending, and the like. Susan Mason
RK-The fact that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are so closely related that one could consider them three sects of the same religion is a viewpoint held by many people. There is a Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition, and it goes back many years. I am familiar with many Jews who pray before eating, and do so much more than Christians, yet I am not saying that they they idolize their food. Many Christians do not kneel before a cross, with or without a picture of Jesus. Susan Mason
Hello. Is it not possible that each religion has different views of what exactly constitutes idolatry so that, for example, the Christian view is different from the Islamic view is different from the Jewish view.
I know that in some areas of the the Middle East, for example, Muslims are very strict about prohibiting any images of humans, animals, plants, or stars as decorative motifs in mosques because this can be interpreted as idolatry, whereas Christians are more lenient with the use of icons, crucifixes, etc. (The Jewish tradition seems to depend largely on the dominant culture of the region). In other words, defining idolatry, which is largely a social construct), would depend on the religious background of the person creating the definition. In other words, a single definition cannot be POV. Danny
RK is deleting a link to Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition for who knows what reason. Susan Mason
I believe it is inappropriate for RK to be accusing Stevertigo of anti-Zionist rants when he hasn't doing anything of the sort during this discussion, or ever as far as I am aware. Susan Mason
There is some kind of unified Christian-Muslim-Jewish POV in regards to idolatry. My wiccan friends all think that idolatry is good, they idolize the earth and the plants in particular. They speak to rocks and believe divine beings are to be found within inert matter. Susan Mason
Susan, I would not characterize your Wiccan friends religion as "idolatry" in the denegrating sense that others might - in accord with their particular views of Wicca, in general. Rather, what Wiccans worship is the manifestation of the "holy spirit" in all things. Its not incompatible with the Judeo-Christo-Islamic concepts, rather its related - while also containing some of the Eastern religious foundations of deism, where deities represent only manefestations of the divine spirit and not the spirit itself, which is the unapproachable mystery. - 豎眩
Its rude people, as if you didnt know, to chop up a talk page by making insterted entries, and to leave entries unsigned. - 豎眩
I think the solution is to use message boards and chatrooms. Right now we could be chatting in Real-Time with RK, Danny, each other, and others, and Im sure we'd accomplish much more.
Susan Mason
I would not go to the Ten Commandments because they are based on a Judeo-Christian text, but to the best of my knowledge they do not appear as such in the Koran (been a while--I could be wrong here.) And besides, look at Exodus 20:4-5--it certainly does have to do with "graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in the heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow unto them or serve them..." That is certainly talking about statues. Also, this whole discussion is pretty ethnocentric. What do the Bahai or the Sikhs have to say about idolatry? I am sure that they have specific opinions too. What about Buddhism? Maybe the term itself is incongruous with our contemporary understanding of religions. Danny
The world and all its religious people are full of contradictions, Danny. - 豎眩
Not all Muslims study only the Koran... Susan Mason
Returning to Wesley's points at the top of this page, I have to agree that the discussion of idolatry is decidedly Protestant, even when it tries to frame the discussion in the language of cultural anthropology and comparative religions. Although I've tried to skew the discussion of Christian practices back to NPOV, I am still disconcerted by the definition of idolatry. I need to research the question further in standard scholarship on comparative religion. Basil Fritts 06:32 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
"Shintoism is a religion which worships images." No, Shintoism is a religion which worships kami.
Might it not do to divide this article in two? One article, Idolatry, would deal with the theological concept used in Abrahamic religion, and thus touch on subjects such as iconoclasm and the Islamic view of images. In that article, it would be appropriate to deal with the idea of idolatry as sin, and the various things that different Abrahamic religions subsume under "idolatry", because that article would be describing the Abrahamic concept of idolatry. The other article, Idol, would deal with the religious artifacts used in certain Hindu sects, various animisms, and other such religions. It would deal with the various sorts of idols that have been used in worship, the ways in which idols are used, archaeological finds of idols, and so forth. It would be dealing not with the Abrahamic idea of "idolatry" but with the practices of those non-Abrahamic religions which actually use idols. -- FOo
Wow. What a storm of editing. Guess I'm not the only to feel strongly about this. Thanks everyone, I think this article is starting to look decent. Looks like no one has touched on its relationship to the Incarnation yet, so I'll be adding that bit here shortly. Wesley 15:49 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
idolatry, n. 1 : the worship of a physical object as a god 2 : immoderate attachment or devotion to something
I would rather not have the title of this article suggest that the practice it describes is "immoderate", as this implies disapproval. I think disapproval isn't neutral.
I therefore propose to move the idolatry article to idol worship, which means the same thing but carries less "disapproving" baggage.
The article should still mention that some religions slap the idolatry label on idol worship and even condemn idol worship as pagan or heathen abomination! When I bought my new Macintosh in 1987, my friend in the UC berated me for idolizing it and called Mac worship a cult. She said, half-jokingly, "You should only belong to one cult at a time." -- Uncle Ed 15:53 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
I don't see any NPOV difference between idolatry and ideol worship. In any event, I deleted this paragraph:
because any religion that require or approves of "idol worship" is not going to call what they worship idols. There are three different points of view this article would have to consider: the point of view of doi dissant idol worshipers (and I am shocked that there is no reference to Kaufman's work); the POV of religions that condemn idolatry (like Judaism, Christianity, Islam), and the point of view of secular scholars of comparative religion -- which in its early stages was somewhat Christian-centric. This article seems to be written from a religious point of view; the above paragraph is certainly not NPOV. Slrubenstein
I am part of a secret society of which you will find no information. I believe there are numerous religions which clearly have idols of some sort, however, the definition of what is, or isn't, an idol, is certainly going to remain in dispute until we agree upon a definition. I am of the opinion that if there is inanimate object which is considered to have not merely religious significance, but religious power innate to itself, then that object is an idol. Susan Mason
The Torah is a Jewish Text I am surprised that no Jewish person intervened earlier to correct some of the mistakes in this thread. The Ten Commandments are first mentioned in a Jewish text, the Torah. Several Christians, notably King James, took issues with some of the text and made changes to the Christian adaptation, which they call the Old Testament. As Muslims also believe in the Torah as the first book, it is incorrect to refer to the Torah as a Judeo-Christian text. It is a Jewish text, which many peoples and religions later chose to modify for their own uses, including newer religions like the Bahai. All use of "Judeo-Christian" and similar terms on this page are indicators of lack of comprehension regarding these two very different faiths.
Some Christian Sects and Idol Worship Jews, do, in fact, generally consider statues of Christ and Mary to constitute idol worship, yet we do not believe that non-Jews are bound by the commandments or the rules of the Torah, and we don't believe it is for us to judge, therefore we wouldn't condemn Christians with Mary statues as idol worshipers who are violating G-d's commandments. On the other hand, some Christians understand the Hebrew Bible's straightforward edicts regarding idol worship, and therefore disallow statues in their churches.
Hindus and Idol Worship Jews also, generally consider Hindus to be idol worshipers, and there is an interesting book about a group of rabbis visiting the Dalai Lama (although I'm not sure it addresses this), which addresses Jewish views on Buddhism, called The Jew in the Lotus. Again, Hindus are not bound by Jewish law, so we don't hold it against them.
I think most of the participants here do not understand how the Torah defines idol worship, though ironically, this is the original prohibition that stirs all this controversy. It's usually best to go straight to the source - and for many religious controversies, that source is Torah. (but you may call it the Old Testament or what have you, if it makes you feel more comfortable, though as I mentioned, King James is NOT the source) For more information on how knowledgeable, religious Jews view idol worship, check out Ask Moses:
-- 88.154.53.228 21:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Michelle in Jerusalem
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
All right, this article is taking a very biased pot shot at Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy by equating idolatry with veneration. I'm steamed, so I'm not going to start making changes right now. I'm going to give cooler heads a chance to do that, preferably the original authors and editors of this piece. I suggest the article distinguish between Protestants and Christians.
If the current text stays, I'm very tempted to insert a rebuttal paragraph or two indicating how the Protestant stance defining idolatry as it does, also effectively denies the doctrine of the Incarnation, just as John of Damascus said it was wont to do back in the eighth century. Wesley 22:40 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
This is not remotely NPOV. Michael Hardy 23:10 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
The middle to bottom needs work, no doubt, but what do you mean /NPOV?- 豎眩
NPOV = "neutral point of view". See the discussion of this in the introductory pages. Michael Hardy 23:12 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Nice... Sign your name with three ~'s next time...-- 豎眩 23:19 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC) Sue?
Sorry Susan... didnt see you editing... - 豎眩
It appears there is an edit disagreement.
Ah youre actually talking things over now... how honored we are that you talks to ussss. - 豎眩
yesh Susan Mason
I agree the sin word is best avoided. So is fetishim, for that matter, which is really the phiosophizing of the habitual and indulgent... related, and worty of aheader, but not pg 1 materiale.. - 豎眩
the fetishism page reads like it is something we would want to mention:
I understand your fetish for fetishim here but its POV, and way down the list as far as idolatric concepts go... think bigger. much bigger... I have to take a ... - 豎眩
So... article contends that Hinduism is not idolatry because it merely uses idols as a representation of a divine being, like Christians use the cross, statues of Jesus or Mary, etc. But is this latter practice not also considered idolatry by some? For example, Jehovah's Witnesses? Or am I mistaken? Graft
You are correct. Susan Mason
Whether something is idolatry or not is purely POV. Susan Mason
RK is introducing POV material. Christianity does not demand worship of God via a cross anymore than Judaism demands woship of God via a dradle or kosher kitchen. Also he is denying a Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition. Susan Mason
Susan wrotes "christianity does not demand idolization of a cross". Huh? Susan, stop attacking statements that no one has made. What I said was that many Christians pray to God via the cross or crucifix, and many venerate saints through statues. Please do not write about topics which you are clearly ignorant of.
Please do not be hostile, arrogant, rude, condenscending, and the like. Susan Mason
RK-The fact that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are so closely related that one could consider them three sects of the same religion is a viewpoint held by many people. There is a Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition, and it goes back many years. I am familiar with many Jews who pray before eating, and do so much more than Christians, yet I am not saying that they they idolize their food. Many Christians do not kneel before a cross, with or without a picture of Jesus. Susan Mason
Hello. Is it not possible that each religion has different views of what exactly constitutes idolatry so that, for example, the Christian view is different from the Islamic view is different from the Jewish view.
I know that in some areas of the the Middle East, for example, Muslims are very strict about prohibiting any images of humans, animals, plants, or stars as decorative motifs in mosques because this can be interpreted as idolatry, whereas Christians are more lenient with the use of icons, crucifixes, etc. (The Jewish tradition seems to depend largely on the dominant culture of the region). In other words, defining idolatry, which is largely a social construct), would depend on the religious background of the person creating the definition. In other words, a single definition cannot be POV. Danny
RK is deleting a link to Christo-Islamic-Judeo tradition for who knows what reason. Susan Mason
I believe it is inappropriate for RK to be accusing Stevertigo of anti-Zionist rants when he hasn't doing anything of the sort during this discussion, or ever as far as I am aware. Susan Mason
There is some kind of unified Christian-Muslim-Jewish POV in regards to idolatry. My wiccan friends all think that idolatry is good, they idolize the earth and the plants in particular. They speak to rocks and believe divine beings are to be found within inert matter. Susan Mason
Susan, I would not characterize your Wiccan friends religion as "idolatry" in the denegrating sense that others might - in accord with their particular views of Wicca, in general. Rather, what Wiccans worship is the manifestation of the "holy spirit" in all things. Its not incompatible with the Judeo-Christo-Islamic concepts, rather its related - while also containing some of the Eastern religious foundations of deism, where deities represent only manefestations of the divine spirit and not the spirit itself, which is the unapproachable mystery. - 豎眩
Its rude people, as if you didnt know, to chop up a talk page by making insterted entries, and to leave entries unsigned. - 豎眩
I think the solution is to use message boards and chatrooms. Right now we could be chatting in Real-Time with RK, Danny, each other, and others, and Im sure we'd accomplish much more.
Susan Mason
I would not go to the Ten Commandments because they are based on a Judeo-Christian text, but to the best of my knowledge they do not appear as such in the Koran (been a while--I could be wrong here.) And besides, look at Exodus 20:4-5--it certainly does have to do with "graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in the heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow unto them or serve them..." That is certainly talking about statues. Also, this whole discussion is pretty ethnocentric. What do the Bahai or the Sikhs have to say about idolatry? I am sure that they have specific opinions too. What about Buddhism? Maybe the term itself is incongruous with our contemporary understanding of religions. Danny
The world and all its religious people are full of contradictions, Danny. - 豎眩
Not all Muslims study only the Koran... Susan Mason
Returning to Wesley's points at the top of this page, I have to agree that the discussion of idolatry is decidedly Protestant, even when it tries to frame the discussion in the language of cultural anthropology and comparative religions. Although I've tried to skew the discussion of Christian practices back to NPOV, I am still disconcerted by the definition of idolatry. I need to research the question further in standard scholarship on comparative religion. Basil Fritts 06:32 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
"Shintoism is a religion which worships images." No, Shintoism is a religion which worships kami.
Might it not do to divide this article in two? One article, Idolatry, would deal with the theological concept used in Abrahamic religion, and thus touch on subjects such as iconoclasm and the Islamic view of images. In that article, it would be appropriate to deal with the idea of idolatry as sin, and the various things that different Abrahamic religions subsume under "idolatry", because that article would be describing the Abrahamic concept of idolatry. The other article, Idol, would deal with the religious artifacts used in certain Hindu sects, various animisms, and other such religions. It would deal with the various sorts of idols that have been used in worship, the ways in which idols are used, archaeological finds of idols, and so forth. It would be dealing not with the Abrahamic idea of "idolatry" but with the practices of those non-Abrahamic religions which actually use idols. -- FOo
Wow. What a storm of editing. Guess I'm not the only to feel strongly about this. Thanks everyone, I think this article is starting to look decent. Looks like no one has touched on its relationship to the Incarnation yet, so I'll be adding that bit here shortly. Wesley 15:49 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
idolatry, n. 1 : the worship of a physical object as a god 2 : immoderate attachment or devotion to something
I would rather not have the title of this article suggest that the practice it describes is "immoderate", as this implies disapproval. I think disapproval isn't neutral.
I therefore propose to move the idolatry article to idol worship, which means the same thing but carries less "disapproving" baggage.
The article should still mention that some religions slap the idolatry label on idol worship and even condemn idol worship as pagan or heathen abomination! When I bought my new Macintosh in 1987, my friend in the UC berated me for idolizing it and called Mac worship a cult. She said, half-jokingly, "You should only belong to one cult at a time." -- Uncle Ed 15:53 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
I don't see any NPOV difference between idolatry and ideol worship. In any event, I deleted this paragraph:
because any religion that require or approves of "idol worship" is not going to call what they worship idols. There are three different points of view this article would have to consider: the point of view of doi dissant idol worshipers (and I am shocked that there is no reference to Kaufman's work); the POV of religions that condemn idolatry (like Judaism, Christianity, Islam), and the point of view of secular scholars of comparative religion -- which in its early stages was somewhat Christian-centric. This article seems to be written from a religious point of view; the above paragraph is certainly not NPOV. Slrubenstein
I am part of a secret society of which you will find no information. I believe there are numerous religions which clearly have idols of some sort, however, the definition of what is, or isn't, an idol, is certainly going to remain in dispute until we agree upon a definition. I am of the opinion that if there is inanimate object which is considered to have not merely religious significance, but religious power innate to itself, then that object is an idol. Susan Mason
The Torah is a Jewish Text I am surprised that no Jewish person intervened earlier to correct some of the mistakes in this thread. The Ten Commandments are first mentioned in a Jewish text, the Torah. Several Christians, notably King James, took issues with some of the text and made changes to the Christian adaptation, which they call the Old Testament. As Muslims also believe in the Torah as the first book, it is incorrect to refer to the Torah as a Judeo-Christian text. It is a Jewish text, which many peoples and religions later chose to modify for their own uses, including newer religions like the Bahai. All use of "Judeo-Christian" and similar terms on this page are indicators of lack of comprehension regarding these two very different faiths.
Some Christian Sects and Idol Worship Jews, do, in fact, generally consider statues of Christ and Mary to constitute idol worship, yet we do not believe that non-Jews are bound by the commandments or the rules of the Torah, and we don't believe it is for us to judge, therefore we wouldn't condemn Christians with Mary statues as idol worshipers who are violating G-d's commandments. On the other hand, some Christians understand the Hebrew Bible's straightforward edicts regarding idol worship, and therefore disallow statues in their churches.
Hindus and Idol Worship Jews also, generally consider Hindus to be idol worshipers, and there is an interesting book about a group of rabbis visiting the Dalai Lama (although I'm not sure it addresses this), which addresses Jewish views on Buddhism, called The Jew in the Lotus. Again, Hindus are not bound by Jewish law, so we don't hold it against them.
I think most of the participants here do not understand how the Torah defines idol worship, though ironically, this is the original prohibition that stirs all this controversy. It's usually best to go straight to the source - and for many religious controversies, that source is Torah. (but you may call it the Old Testament or what have you, if it makes you feel more comfortable, though as I mentioned, King James is NOT the source) For more information on how knowledgeable, religious Jews view idol worship, check out Ask Moses:
-- 88.154.53.228 21:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Michelle in Jerusalem