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Let us all agree from this day forth, We are All jelly doughnuts! Who would no want to be? 71.111.150.134 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"According to the context of the speech, Kennedy meant that he stood together with West Berliners in their struggle to maintain their freedom against communist aggression."
Well, it shall be be reformulated in post-Coldwar language.
Berlin was an allied enclave in Eastern Europe back in that time. Part of Western Germany
While linguistic ambiguos nobody will think of it. "Ich bin ein Amerikaner" is ambiguos as well.
This is an urban legend.
1) Native German speakers do not think that the phrase is ambigious.
2) There are no known published references to this story at the time of the speech. The first published claim that Kennedy made a grammar error was a New York Times op-ed piece in 1987 from a writer from Gainesville, Florida.
The story seems to have originated in central Florida in the mid-1980's. I Chenyu remember
hearing the story from my high school German teacher in 1986, and I've met people who heard
the story before it was published in 1987 and they all seem to be from central Florida.
Indeed: "Ich bin ein Berliner" is not really ambigious enough to be funny. "Ich bin ein Hamburger" might make a German smirk, though. -- Eloquence
Regardless of the comment made above, kennedy made a gramatical error that changed the entire meaning of the sentance he was trying to say. In german it is very important that sentence structure and grammer is followed to the letter of the law because if it is not, then the whole sentance changes meaning, and often times, means nothing at all without certin words, ot because in Kennedys case, a word was added. It would be like saying that i is a good speaker english... you get the point of the sentance, but it really doesn't make sense. Itjust makes Kennedy sound like an uneducated bafoon... even though he wasn't... it was his translators fault.
I plan to go to South America and tell everyone "Soy de Los Angeles" (which is true). Do you think anyone will assume I'm an emissary of God?
I've removed the above line from the article. Only Ed Poor seems to be claiming that it was an embarassing error, and he hasn't attempted to justify this. -- Zundark, 2001 Dec 14
I thought that debunking the "urban legend" was the whole point of this article. I didn't write any of it, however, so I can't be sure. -- Zundark, 2001 Dec 14
So what is the "urban legend" here? The phrase clearly can be interpreted both ways. The phrase was certainly understood in context. However, the phrase is also inherently ambiguous. (I disagree with the comment above. The reference to "native German speakers" is not relevant because the idiom is specific to Berlin. No Berliner would say ich bin ein Berliner even as a point of emphasis.) When I lived in Berlin (1985-1989), the people I talked to who remembered or talked about the speech mentioned the phrase and it's ambiguity with a sense of fondness - a sense that it made Kennedy's speech stronger and more personal because his command of local idiom was imperfect. They enjoyed telling me about the jelly donut. While I can not confirm that my experience in Berlin preceded this newspaper story in Florida, I have trouble believing that it could have spread so quickly and been accepted as fact in Berlin itself. Rossami 00:32 16 May 2003 (UTC)
Speech or no speech, Berliners are not donuts. A Berliner, although it has much in common with a donut (it's sweet, often jelly-filled and fried), is topologically different from a donut. All donuts have a hole i.e. they are toruses (tori?). No Berliner has a hole i.e. they are topologically equivalent to a sphere. Mmmmh, donuts... 145.254.36.141 17:41 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
1. There is a wiki-page on donuts in wikipedia, from where I think, I triggered off this discussion. It explains all the different forms of donuts. Maybe it would be good to link this article to there.
2. The page itself is obviously of interest, and personaly I am quite amazed, that you can focus on Florida as the origin.
3. There is no danger, that the anti-communism thing is being neglected, since obviously it's the donut that made the speech famous in the US. Over here it's more the fact, that Kennedy wanted to give proof of his personal pity for the split town as an act of inhumanity - may it be by communist or whatever agression.
3. Ambiguity: as a native speaker I feel that nobody will firstly think of the ambiguity, when hearing the phrase. Even for Hamburgers no one will think of people from Hamburg, since the food is pronounced the english way, the people are pronounced the german way (something like Humm - boorger) I have the feeling, that it depends on what is better known: the food or the town, as is the case with the smelly Limburger cheese. So if you desperatly need an ambiguity, take the cheese :-)
-- Guest, Oct.21.2003
What's funny is having taken 2 years of the language from an instructor who was raised in Germany... She also raised the point that berliner was a word that meant jelly donut. it could be a meaning that's indiginous to where the story arose. Just as in NYC, cookies with chocolate and vanilla frosting are refered to as "black and whites" and in upstate NY, they're refered to as half moon cookies. Same cookie, different name. -- another guest. 9.9.2004
grammatically speaking, nationalities (incl. cities) do not get an article. he therefore should have said "Ich bin Berliner." 11/16/04
I know this isn't a simpsons article, but is Mayor Quimby really JFK? I've always seen him as more of a teddy or some sort of amalgam of the whole family from Joe on down... bimalc 10 Aug 2005
I changed the example from Frankfurter to New Yorker. I'm not a native speaker of German but my impression is that the phrase isn't really ambiguous unless someone searches for another meaning. Going by the article on ambiguity Ich bin ein Berliner isn't really ambigious. Here are similar things in English: I have Danish blood in me. Your ancestors were pastries? I deposited $100 in the bank You put $100 on the side of a river? No one would actaully think of the alternative meanings unless pointed out. With the Frankfurter it is clear what is meant but it doesn't take much of an imagination to think of the other meaning. Hence I changed it to New Yorker since that actually requires some thought to think of the magazine.
Can we get a native German speaker(s) to offer their opinion(s)? commonbrick 21:56, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
oh boy - I AM a native speaker, I have not emigrated as a child and I have managed to get a decent degree over here, so I do think I know the meaning of words in my language. Let me tell you: the article is excellent at the moment :-) This donut-thing doesn't pop up to people in Germany, not in Berlin nor elsewhere. Maybe they used it in Berlin to confuse a stranger from the states to test his language skills - ever thought of that? (I think that's called observer bias or something like that) Ever wonder, why the German Wiki-Article doesn't even mention the donut-thing with one word? As I stated in the discussion section for the donut article two years ago, Kennedy is very appreciated for this phrase over here. Let's create another urban myth instead: the urban myth "Ich bin ein Berliner" was deliberately created by conservative forces in Florida =:-O trying to discredit an internationally well appreciated democratic president :-D -- Guest 24 Apr 2005
All of these are ambiguous. Some will get a few chuckles, others won't. The meanings are clear with the right context but some will get a giggle because everyone will think of the alternative meaning first. I've listed the first thing I would think of first, followed by other interpretations.
commonbrick 18:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Interestingly, Kennedy did get a laugh a moment after he first used the phrase, but deliberately." This whole section needs explanation, because the section immediately preceeding it says that the phrase was greet with cheers and applause. Explanations? DJ Clayworth 22:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article and discussion are really ridiculous. Nobody in Germany ever misunderstood Kennedy. All the people knew what he meant, nobody thought of anything else than "Ich bin ein Bürger Berlins". There is no better statement Kennedy could give. You state "Ich bin Berliner" if you are asked "Aus welcher Stadt kommst du?", but if you proudly announcing "Ich bin ein Berliner" everybody would use "ein".
Please cut down the article, this urban legend Quatsch is based on some poor jokes some people made later, when Kennedys speech got part of Popkultur. From my point of view a little sentence like "Statements that Kennedy was misunderstood for having stated "I'm a jelly donut" (Berliner can mean both a citizen of Berlin and a kind of donut in Germany) because of wrong use of German grammar is an urban legend and just wrong" (or something like that) would be enough about that.
Entschuldigung, my English isn't the best, when I got embarrassed of a bad article. -- ::Slomox >< 16:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the question is misinterpretation. Of course nobody thought that Kennedy was actually claiming to be a jelly doughnut. The question is whether some people in the crowd were amused by the apparent double-entendre. The statement is not ambiguous, because it was clear what he meant; it has, however, the possibility of being a double-entendre. (I know a German who is not a Berliner and who was there. She understood exactly what he meant, but still found it mildly amusing.) Whether it occurred to the majority of German-speakers present is what is in question.
That being said, the "analogous example" is not analogous at all. There is no analogous example in English. The grammatical issue at work in the sentence "Ich bin ein Berliner" has no equivalent in English. In English, the article is -always- used in such a sentence, and therefore the is no question of ambiguity.
By the way, is there an article on the actual speech itself? I don't know enough about the speech to write the article, but it certainly deserves one. While the "Berliner" sentence is famous, the speech itself was far more important. - Che Nuevara, the Democratic Revolutionary 20:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Someone had changed all instances of "jelly" to "jam" (i.e. "jam doughnuts"), saying that "jelly" is only used in North America. I have reverted it back to "jelly" for several reasons:
-- JW1805 28 June 2005 16:33 (UTC)
Jam
Jelly
I like the new version. Kudos to JW1805. commonbrick 3 July 2005 16:42 (UTC)
I'm not going to aruge over jelly and jam anymore. We have an article we can both agree on so lets just drop it. commonbrick 4 July 2005 02:04 (UTC)
could we discuss this here: Talk:Berliner_(pastry) this page is about Kennedy, not about what a Berliner_(pastry) is -- androl
The article for Berliner refers to jam, rather than jelly. As such, would it be fair to say that a berliner is not the same thing as a jelly doughnut even by American standards? Referring to a German pastry by a uniquely American term seems wrong to me. Mezziekins 11:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Some people say there was laughter after the phrase, some say it was applause On the German page I read there was laughter because Kennedy thanked his translator for translating his German phrase into German
I spent some time rewriting and, I hope, improving the article, only to have it immediately reverted several times, mostly by anonymous users such as 38.114.48.102, who used a disingenuous edit description ("struggle rather than rivalry") to conceal the revert.
The problems with the older article, which I have sought to correct, are:
If you think this edit needs change, by all means change and improve it, that's what Wikipedia is for. But immediate reversion of a substantial edit is vandalism. ProhibitOnions 07:09:38, 2005-09-10 (UTC)
Thanks to the usual vandal, this time masquerading as "Prohibit0nions" (with an 0 instead of an O), I have requested that this page be protected. ProhibitOnions 17:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I first heard this legend (and believed it and passed it on, I'm afraid) in high school in Wisconsin sometime during 1971 or early 1972. It did not begin in Florida in the 1980s as the article claims. -- 24.16.140.106 23:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
"A common urban legend asserts that Kennedy made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry.
The legend stems from a play on words with Berliner, the name given to a doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin. While this "jelly doughnut" is indeed common to Berlin, it is only known as Pfannkuchen (pan cake) in the city and nearby regions. Other parts of Germany picked up the pastry under the name of Berliner Pfannkuchen, shortened to Berliner.
According to the legend, Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, it is claimed, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut". In the legend, the statement was followed by uproarious laughter.
This urban legend is unknown in Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history. The term "Berliner" for the pastry sounds strange to people in Berlin. Common souvenirs in Berlin depicting a doughnut covered with the inscription "Ich bin ein Berliner," which are often thought by American tourists to refer to this legend, represent little more than a play on words.
There is no grammatical error in Kennedy's statement; the indefinite article does not change its meaning. In German, statements of profession are often made without an article, thus "Ich bin Arzt" (I am a doctor). However, "Ich bin ein Arzt," while less common, is not a mistake. Conversely, with statements of origin "Ich bin ein Brandenburger" (I am from Brandenburg) is more common than "Ich bin Brandenburger"; however, both are correct. Although both forms may be used interchangeably, the article "ein" can be used as a form of emphasis: it implies "just one of many." As Kennedy did indeed stress the "ein", the usage was, according to German linguist Jürgen Eichhoff [1], "not only correct, but the one and only correct way of expressing in German what the President intended to say.""
No, I don't think it really is a misconception, I have before had confirmations from native speakers of the "language" that it really was a mistake and he should have said "Ich bin Berliner." Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian) (talk)
Just for the record I was there and heard the speech live. I agree with ProhibitOnions. (And anyone who impersonates deserves an infinite ban.) -- Anjouli 07:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The part about laughter in the crowd at Kennedy's German is almost certainly apocryphal. The intent of his words was clear. Kennedy paid a compliment to the citizens of Berlin by speaking that phrase in their language. It's hard to convey the siege mentality of West Berlin during the Cold War era. I visited as the two Germanies were preparing to reunite. Any adult in the crowd who attended Kennedy's speech was old enough to remember the Berlin airlift. They welcomed the statement of support from the most powerful statesman in the world.
Having said that, every instructor in every German course I ever took made a point of explaining Kennedy's construction as a grammatical error - a forgivable one in its context, but one that we should never emulate in formal settings. This began in 1983, four years before the "legend" supposedly originated. Most of these instructors were professors of German at Columbia University and native speakers of the language. My own grandmother, a native German speaker who worked as a translator for Allied intelligence during World War II, agreed that Kennedy made a mistake to use the preposition "ein." None of these native speakers offered the reasoning now cited about figurative usage in Kennedy's defense, although they explained many other subtleties and idiomatic distinctions about the German language.
The particular turn of phrase is so associated with Kennedy that a political cartoon in Der Stern paraphrased it around 1990. The West German seat of government had been in the city of Bonn and an overwhelming majority vote agreed to move the unified capital to its historic seat in Berlin. In the cartoon a lonely politician stood on an office building ledge, looking at the sidewalk far below as if contemplating suicide while holding a sign that read, "Ich bin ein Bonner." (Figuratively, "I would like to keep the capital in Bonn.") Part of the cartoon's wit is its implicit denigration of minority opinion by association with Kennedy's mistaken phrasing.
When I visited Germany I sometimes asked about this phrase. I was relatively fluent at the time so this usually arose as part of a long conversation in German. The universal reaction I received from ordinary Germans was that everybody knew Kennedy made a slight error. Technically he called himself a donut, they agreed, but German grammar is so complex that non-natives butcher it regularly. What mattered was Kennedy's message of support. English speakers who don't understand German language and culture have blown this out of proportion. I wouldn't go so far as to call the whole matter an urban legend. I suspect there are political overtones to the recent apologetics for Kennedy's grammar.
Here's a parallel example for English speakers who don't speak German: it's like the difference between saying, "I am Danish," and "I am a danish." It's only humorous out of context and in retrospect. Durova 05:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
The part about laughter in the crowd at Kennedy's German is almost certainly apocryphal.
Here's a parallel example for English speakers who don't speak German: it's like the difference between saying, "I am Danish," and "I am a danish." It's only humorous out of context and in retrospect.
This began in 1983, four years before the "legend" supposedly originated.
Most of these instructors were professors of German at Columbia University.
Part of the cartoon's wit is its implicit denigration of minority opinion by association with Kennedy's mistaken phrasing.
The universal reaction I received from ordinary Germans was that everybody knew Kennedy made a slight error. Technically he called himself a donut, they agreed, but German grammar is so complex that non-natives butcher it regularly.
Either Lisa Simpson doesn't know German or she thinks she's a boy. Otherwise she would have said, more correctly, "Ich bin eine Gymnastin!" JIP | Talk 08:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Get him!
-G
> "Ich bin ein Berliner" ("I am a citizen of Berlin") is a famous quotation
This is incorrect in the article, because the sentence means "I am a sausage" in german. It is well-known that JFK said stupidity in the speech and half of german attendants were laughing about that loud, but film footage of that is not often shown in documentaries in order not to offend America.
IT HAS ABSOLUTELY N-O-T-H-I-N-G TO DO WITH SAUSAGES. However, Berliner does not only mean citizen of Berlin, but it is also some kind of a doughnut. But JFK hasn't embarassed himself. If someone claims to be a New Yorker he doesn't intend being a fashion shop.
Here's an absolutely ridiculous re-translation in a bloody awful tourist brochure that was really meant to be serious. These idiots even messed up with the year. http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfisch/0,1518,grossbild-581506-394256,00.html
Of course JFK's usage was grammatically correct. Until I saw this Wikipedia article, I knew of no one claiming otherwise. What he did do is unwittingly use a local idiom, in which Berliner is a jelly donut.
The citation to BBC [2] is a from Letter from America, using storytelling, not an actual article. The Guardian [3] article also gives the myth as an anecdote -- the article is about printing media and is written by a graphic artist. They don't really feel like something that I'd qualify as "reputable" sources for information about presidential speeches, nor something that editors would generally try to correct. 128.195.15.99 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there is still a habit of "atleast there must be something in it". So I chose to rebuild the section on the jelly donut legend part as a strict deconstruction running point by point. The legend does not have any factual foundation based on the historic event - it is a pure invention made in the USA that might have been thrown up as a joke of "Did he say Berliner? Isn't there a donut by that name?". Guidod 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Every German language teacher or professor I ever had, including several who were native speakers, made a point of specifying this speech in the classroom as an example of incorrect grammar. Characterizing it as an urban legend is inappropriate. The article cites a single linguist in Kennedy's defense, then claims that the media made it up out of whole cloth: WP:NOR. While the bit about people laughing during the speech is probably exaggerated, it is (to many German speakers) the equivalent of the difference in English between saying "I am Danish." and "I am a danish." What mattered more at the time, of course, was that they understood the intention of Kennedy's sentiment.
And the question of whether the donut in question is sold in Berlin is moot: foods are often named after some distant place. The "French crullers" sold in American donut shops resemble no pastry I've seen in France, "English muffins" look like no muffin from England, "New York cheesecake" rarely resembles the cheesecakes actually sold in New York, "neapolitan" ice cream does not come from Naples, etc. Durova 13:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it would help to break down the interpretation of Kennedy's phrase based on who the listener was/is. I'm definitely not an expert on this subject as I don't speak German but I think it would be interesting to see someone else who understands the situation well to break it down by groups of listeners like the ones below.
Group 1. You speak German and you don't call pastries 'Berliners', probably because you live in Berlin:
You'd understand that Kennedy was referring to himself as one of many 'figurative' Berliners and you wouldn't think about pastries.
Group 2. You speak English only and you've never heard of jelly pastries being called Berliners'.
You'd have to rely on the English translation which was probably "I am a Berliner" or "I am a citizen of Berlin" and think about Kennedy being a 'citizen' of Berlin.
Group 3. You speak German and you call jelly pastries 'Berliners', probably because you live in Germany but not near Berlin.
You'd see that there are two interpretations to (Kennedy's) "Ich bin ein Berliner.":
Either
1. "I am a Berliner ('citizen' of Berlin)." with an implication/understanding that someone (like Kennedy) doesn't actually have to be a legal citizen of Berlin to be a 'citizen' of Berlin.
or
2. "I am a jelly pastry." - Literally, not even in the figurative sense! :-)
Now, which of 1 or 2 comes to mind first to someone in group 3 seems to depend on how strongly that person has associated 'Berliner' with "citizen of Berlin" relative to how strongly they associate 'Berliner' to jelly pastry.
Group 4: You speak English only but you've heard of pastries being called Berliners.
Here the two translations above will generate different reactions. What were the exact translations to English of Kennedy's phrase that were done on the spot and/or broadcasted?
Case 1: English translation: "I am a citizen of Berlin."
You'd understand that Kennedy was referring to himself as one of many 'figurative' Berliners and you wouldn't think about pastries.
Case 2: English translation: "I am a Berliner"
You may think about Kennedy being a jelly pastry but you wouldn't 'see' the alternative, 'self-directed as opposed to one of many', "Ich bin Berliner."
If the 'correct' way to say "I am a jelly pastry" for the people in group 3 is "Ich bin ein Berliner" then the article should point out that some people found it amusing in comparing the two meanings that are possible while/after determining what Kennedy meant by his remarks, even if what he said was grammatically correct for his intended meaning.
Synesthetic 06:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's make one thing very sure: the urban legend is not about a "possible play on words", it's about the claim of a "serious grammatical error" and a "historic fact" where Kennedy was laughed at. None of that is true. A theoretical possibility of making up a play on words does not imply there was a real possibility - especially as the situation in Germany was much to dramatic at the time as that anyone could even think of making up something, and that's commonly true to US citizens as well. In the midst of events, you would have need to be a very uninformed person (and probably very drunk as well) to make it up as a practical joke - more likely it was invented years later (from seeing the speech on tape) being turned in an urban legend where everyone says they know someone who knows a native German (or close-to-native-speaker German-teachar) that asserted the grammatical error. Which is untrue either, 100%. Guidod 20:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Some editors a while back insisted that there is no such thing as a sausage known as a Berliner. There definitely is, as a Google search of "Berliner sausage" indicates. Alan Pascoe 12:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
--
According to many a translation site and many a German, the correct way to say you are from a certain city is to say "Ich bin (city)." While we all love JFK and everyone knows exactly what he wanted to say, he did in fact call himself a Berliner, a type of jelly doughnut. While we cannot dispute what he was trying to say, this is not an urban legend and JFK did call himself a doughnut. Needs more documentation on how this is to be the correct way to say you are from a German city. (even if he did stress the "ein"). Cleric 20:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Cleric 21:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
How does this not contradict what is stated? I understand that it "has already been discussed to death" but if the linguist that is quoted in the article is stating that it has two meanings, then it is not a myth. Cleric 18:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, Onion, I think we are on different wave lengths here. I am not disputing that it means "a mail person from Berlin" or that it means "a deep-fried pastry filled with plum sauce similar to a jelly doughtnut." I am not disputing what he said (as we have both come to the conclusion that he said both these things). I am disputing that this is a myth/legend. He did say he was "a person from Berlin." He did say he was a "jelly doughnut." We have both agreed on this. What I am saying is that it is not a myth that he said these things... Cleric 21:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Let us all agree from this day forth, We are All jelly doughnuts! Who would no want to be? 71.111.150.134 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"According to the context of the speech, Kennedy meant that he stood together with West Berliners in their struggle to maintain their freedom against communist aggression."
Well, it shall be be reformulated in post-Coldwar language.
Berlin was an allied enclave in Eastern Europe back in that time. Part of Western Germany
While linguistic ambiguos nobody will think of it. "Ich bin ein Amerikaner" is ambiguos as well.
This is an urban legend.
1) Native German speakers do not think that the phrase is ambigious.
2) There are no known published references to this story at the time of the speech. The first published claim that Kennedy made a grammar error was a New York Times op-ed piece in 1987 from a writer from Gainesville, Florida.
The story seems to have originated in central Florida in the mid-1980's. I Chenyu remember
hearing the story from my high school German teacher in 1986, and I've met people who heard
the story before it was published in 1987 and they all seem to be from central Florida.
Indeed: "Ich bin ein Berliner" is not really ambigious enough to be funny. "Ich bin ein Hamburger" might make a German smirk, though. -- Eloquence
Regardless of the comment made above, kennedy made a gramatical error that changed the entire meaning of the sentance he was trying to say. In german it is very important that sentence structure and grammer is followed to the letter of the law because if it is not, then the whole sentance changes meaning, and often times, means nothing at all without certin words, ot because in Kennedys case, a word was added. It would be like saying that i is a good speaker english... you get the point of the sentance, but it really doesn't make sense. Itjust makes Kennedy sound like an uneducated bafoon... even though he wasn't... it was his translators fault.
I plan to go to South America and tell everyone "Soy de Los Angeles" (which is true). Do you think anyone will assume I'm an emissary of God?
I've removed the above line from the article. Only Ed Poor seems to be claiming that it was an embarassing error, and he hasn't attempted to justify this. -- Zundark, 2001 Dec 14
I thought that debunking the "urban legend" was the whole point of this article. I didn't write any of it, however, so I can't be sure. -- Zundark, 2001 Dec 14
So what is the "urban legend" here? The phrase clearly can be interpreted both ways. The phrase was certainly understood in context. However, the phrase is also inherently ambiguous. (I disagree with the comment above. The reference to "native German speakers" is not relevant because the idiom is specific to Berlin. No Berliner would say ich bin ein Berliner even as a point of emphasis.) When I lived in Berlin (1985-1989), the people I talked to who remembered or talked about the speech mentioned the phrase and it's ambiguity with a sense of fondness - a sense that it made Kennedy's speech stronger and more personal because his command of local idiom was imperfect. They enjoyed telling me about the jelly donut. While I can not confirm that my experience in Berlin preceded this newspaper story in Florida, I have trouble believing that it could have spread so quickly and been accepted as fact in Berlin itself. Rossami 00:32 16 May 2003 (UTC)
Speech or no speech, Berliners are not donuts. A Berliner, although it has much in common with a donut (it's sweet, often jelly-filled and fried), is topologically different from a donut. All donuts have a hole i.e. they are toruses (tori?). No Berliner has a hole i.e. they are topologically equivalent to a sphere. Mmmmh, donuts... 145.254.36.141 17:41 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
1. There is a wiki-page on donuts in wikipedia, from where I think, I triggered off this discussion. It explains all the different forms of donuts. Maybe it would be good to link this article to there.
2. The page itself is obviously of interest, and personaly I am quite amazed, that you can focus on Florida as the origin.
3. There is no danger, that the anti-communism thing is being neglected, since obviously it's the donut that made the speech famous in the US. Over here it's more the fact, that Kennedy wanted to give proof of his personal pity for the split town as an act of inhumanity - may it be by communist or whatever agression.
3. Ambiguity: as a native speaker I feel that nobody will firstly think of the ambiguity, when hearing the phrase. Even for Hamburgers no one will think of people from Hamburg, since the food is pronounced the english way, the people are pronounced the german way (something like Humm - boorger) I have the feeling, that it depends on what is better known: the food or the town, as is the case with the smelly Limburger cheese. So if you desperatly need an ambiguity, take the cheese :-)
-- Guest, Oct.21.2003
What's funny is having taken 2 years of the language from an instructor who was raised in Germany... She also raised the point that berliner was a word that meant jelly donut. it could be a meaning that's indiginous to where the story arose. Just as in NYC, cookies with chocolate and vanilla frosting are refered to as "black and whites" and in upstate NY, they're refered to as half moon cookies. Same cookie, different name. -- another guest. 9.9.2004
grammatically speaking, nationalities (incl. cities) do not get an article. he therefore should have said "Ich bin Berliner." 11/16/04
I know this isn't a simpsons article, but is Mayor Quimby really JFK? I've always seen him as more of a teddy or some sort of amalgam of the whole family from Joe on down... bimalc 10 Aug 2005
I changed the example from Frankfurter to New Yorker. I'm not a native speaker of German but my impression is that the phrase isn't really ambiguous unless someone searches for another meaning. Going by the article on ambiguity Ich bin ein Berliner isn't really ambigious. Here are similar things in English: I have Danish blood in me. Your ancestors were pastries? I deposited $100 in the bank You put $100 on the side of a river? No one would actaully think of the alternative meanings unless pointed out. With the Frankfurter it is clear what is meant but it doesn't take much of an imagination to think of the other meaning. Hence I changed it to New Yorker since that actually requires some thought to think of the magazine.
Can we get a native German speaker(s) to offer their opinion(s)? commonbrick 21:56, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
oh boy - I AM a native speaker, I have not emigrated as a child and I have managed to get a decent degree over here, so I do think I know the meaning of words in my language. Let me tell you: the article is excellent at the moment :-) This donut-thing doesn't pop up to people in Germany, not in Berlin nor elsewhere. Maybe they used it in Berlin to confuse a stranger from the states to test his language skills - ever thought of that? (I think that's called observer bias or something like that) Ever wonder, why the German Wiki-Article doesn't even mention the donut-thing with one word? As I stated in the discussion section for the donut article two years ago, Kennedy is very appreciated for this phrase over here. Let's create another urban myth instead: the urban myth "Ich bin ein Berliner" was deliberately created by conservative forces in Florida =:-O trying to discredit an internationally well appreciated democratic president :-D -- Guest 24 Apr 2005
All of these are ambiguous. Some will get a few chuckles, others won't. The meanings are clear with the right context but some will get a giggle because everyone will think of the alternative meaning first. I've listed the first thing I would think of first, followed by other interpretations.
commonbrick 18:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Interestingly, Kennedy did get a laugh a moment after he first used the phrase, but deliberately." This whole section needs explanation, because the section immediately preceeding it says that the phrase was greet with cheers and applause. Explanations? DJ Clayworth 22:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article and discussion are really ridiculous. Nobody in Germany ever misunderstood Kennedy. All the people knew what he meant, nobody thought of anything else than "Ich bin ein Bürger Berlins". There is no better statement Kennedy could give. You state "Ich bin Berliner" if you are asked "Aus welcher Stadt kommst du?", but if you proudly announcing "Ich bin ein Berliner" everybody would use "ein".
Please cut down the article, this urban legend Quatsch is based on some poor jokes some people made later, when Kennedys speech got part of Popkultur. From my point of view a little sentence like "Statements that Kennedy was misunderstood for having stated "I'm a jelly donut" (Berliner can mean both a citizen of Berlin and a kind of donut in Germany) because of wrong use of German grammar is an urban legend and just wrong" (or something like that) would be enough about that.
Entschuldigung, my English isn't the best, when I got embarrassed of a bad article. -- ::Slomox >< 16:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the question is misinterpretation. Of course nobody thought that Kennedy was actually claiming to be a jelly doughnut. The question is whether some people in the crowd were amused by the apparent double-entendre. The statement is not ambiguous, because it was clear what he meant; it has, however, the possibility of being a double-entendre. (I know a German who is not a Berliner and who was there. She understood exactly what he meant, but still found it mildly amusing.) Whether it occurred to the majority of German-speakers present is what is in question.
That being said, the "analogous example" is not analogous at all. There is no analogous example in English. The grammatical issue at work in the sentence "Ich bin ein Berliner" has no equivalent in English. In English, the article is -always- used in such a sentence, and therefore the is no question of ambiguity.
By the way, is there an article on the actual speech itself? I don't know enough about the speech to write the article, but it certainly deserves one. While the "Berliner" sentence is famous, the speech itself was far more important. - Che Nuevara, the Democratic Revolutionary 20:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Someone had changed all instances of "jelly" to "jam" (i.e. "jam doughnuts"), saying that "jelly" is only used in North America. I have reverted it back to "jelly" for several reasons:
-- JW1805 28 June 2005 16:33 (UTC)
Jam
Jelly
I like the new version. Kudos to JW1805. commonbrick 3 July 2005 16:42 (UTC)
I'm not going to aruge over jelly and jam anymore. We have an article we can both agree on so lets just drop it. commonbrick 4 July 2005 02:04 (UTC)
could we discuss this here: Talk:Berliner_(pastry) this page is about Kennedy, not about what a Berliner_(pastry) is -- androl
The article for Berliner refers to jam, rather than jelly. As such, would it be fair to say that a berliner is not the same thing as a jelly doughnut even by American standards? Referring to a German pastry by a uniquely American term seems wrong to me. Mezziekins 11:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Some people say there was laughter after the phrase, some say it was applause On the German page I read there was laughter because Kennedy thanked his translator for translating his German phrase into German
I spent some time rewriting and, I hope, improving the article, only to have it immediately reverted several times, mostly by anonymous users such as 38.114.48.102, who used a disingenuous edit description ("struggle rather than rivalry") to conceal the revert.
The problems with the older article, which I have sought to correct, are:
If you think this edit needs change, by all means change and improve it, that's what Wikipedia is for. But immediate reversion of a substantial edit is vandalism. ProhibitOnions 07:09:38, 2005-09-10 (UTC)
Thanks to the usual vandal, this time masquerading as "Prohibit0nions" (with an 0 instead of an O), I have requested that this page be protected. ProhibitOnions 17:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I first heard this legend (and believed it and passed it on, I'm afraid) in high school in Wisconsin sometime during 1971 or early 1972. It did not begin in Florida in the 1980s as the article claims. -- 24.16.140.106 23:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
"A common urban legend asserts that Kennedy made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry.
The legend stems from a play on words with Berliner, the name given to a doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin. While this "jelly doughnut" is indeed common to Berlin, it is only known as Pfannkuchen (pan cake) in the city and nearby regions. Other parts of Germany picked up the pastry under the name of Berliner Pfannkuchen, shortened to Berliner.
According to the legend, Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, it is claimed, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut". In the legend, the statement was followed by uproarious laughter.
This urban legend is unknown in Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history. The term "Berliner" for the pastry sounds strange to people in Berlin. Common souvenirs in Berlin depicting a doughnut covered with the inscription "Ich bin ein Berliner," which are often thought by American tourists to refer to this legend, represent little more than a play on words.
There is no grammatical error in Kennedy's statement; the indefinite article does not change its meaning. In German, statements of profession are often made without an article, thus "Ich bin Arzt" (I am a doctor). However, "Ich bin ein Arzt," while less common, is not a mistake. Conversely, with statements of origin "Ich bin ein Brandenburger" (I am from Brandenburg) is more common than "Ich bin Brandenburger"; however, both are correct. Although both forms may be used interchangeably, the article "ein" can be used as a form of emphasis: it implies "just one of many." As Kennedy did indeed stress the "ein", the usage was, according to German linguist Jürgen Eichhoff [1], "not only correct, but the one and only correct way of expressing in German what the President intended to say.""
No, I don't think it really is a misconception, I have before had confirmations from native speakers of the "language" that it really was a mistake and he should have said "Ich bin Berliner." Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian) (talk)
Just for the record I was there and heard the speech live. I agree with ProhibitOnions. (And anyone who impersonates deserves an infinite ban.) -- Anjouli 07:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The part about laughter in the crowd at Kennedy's German is almost certainly apocryphal. The intent of his words was clear. Kennedy paid a compliment to the citizens of Berlin by speaking that phrase in their language. It's hard to convey the siege mentality of West Berlin during the Cold War era. I visited as the two Germanies were preparing to reunite. Any adult in the crowd who attended Kennedy's speech was old enough to remember the Berlin airlift. They welcomed the statement of support from the most powerful statesman in the world.
Having said that, every instructor in every German course I ever took made a point of explaining Kennedy's construction as a grammatical error - a forgivable one in its context, but one that we should never emulate in formal settings. This began in 1983, four years before the "legend" supposedly originated. Most of these instructors were professors of German at Columbia University and native speakers of the language. My own grandmother, a native German speaker who worked as a translator for Allied intelligence during World War II, agreed that Kennedy made a mistake to use the preposition "ein." None of these native speakers offered the reasoning now cited about figurative usage in Kennedy's defense, although they explained many other subtleties and idiomatic distinctions about the German language.
The particular turn of phrase is so associated with Kennedy that a political cartoon in Der Stern paraphrased it around 1990. The West German seat of government had been in the city of Bonn and an overwhelming majority vote agreed to move the unified capital to its historic seat in Berlin. In the cartoon a lonely politician stood on an office building ledge, looking at the sidewalk far below as if contemplating suicide while holding a sign that read, "Ich bin ein Bonner." (Figuratively, "I would like to keep the capital in Bonn.") Part of the cartoon's wit is its implicit denigration of minority opinion by association with Kennedy's mistaken phrasing.
When I visited Germany I sometimes asked about this phrase. I was relatively fluent at the time so this usually arose as part of a long conversation in German. The universal reaction I received from ordinary Germans was that everybody knew Kennedy made a slight error. Technically he called himself a donut, they agreed, but German grammar is so complex that non-natives butcher it regularly. What mattered was Kennedy's message of support. English speakers who don't understand German language and culture have blown this out of proportion. I wouldn't go so far as to call the whole matter an urban legend. I suspect there are political overtones to the recent apologetics for Kennedy's grammar.
Here's a parallel example for English speakers who don't speak German: it's like the difference between saying, "I am Danish," and "I am a danish." It's only humorous out of context and in retrospect. Durova 05:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
The part about laughter in the crowd at Kennedy's German is almost certainly apocryphal.
Here's a parallel example for English speakers who don't speak German: it's like the difference between saying, "I am Danish," and "I am a danish." It's only humorous out of context and in retrospect.
This began in 1983, four years before the "legend" supposedly originated.
Most of these instructors were professors of German at Columbia University.
Part of the cartoon's wit is its implicit denigration of minority opinion by association with Kennedy's mistaken phrasing.
The universal reaction I received from ordinary Germans was that everybody knew Kennedy made a slight error. Technically he called himself a donut, they agreed, but German grammar is so complex that non-natives butcher it regularly.
Either Lisa Simpson doesn't know German or she thinks she's a boy. Otherwise she would have said, more correctly, "Ich bin eine Gymnastin!" JIP | Talk 08:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Get him!
-G
> "Ich bin ein Berliner" ("I am a citizen of Berlin") is a famous quotation
This is incorrect in the article, because the sentence means "I am a sausage" in german. It is well-known that JFK said stupidity in the speech and half of german attendants were laughing about that loud, but film footage of that is not often shown in documentaries in order not to offend America.
IT HAS ABSOLUTELY N-O-T-H-I-N-G TO DO WITH SAUSAGES. However, Berliner does not only mean citizen of Berlin, but it is also some kind of a doughnut. But JFK hasn't embarassed himself. If someone claims to be a New Yorker he doesn't intend being a fashion shop.
Here's an absolutely ridiculous re-translation in a bloody awful tourist brochure that was really meant to be serious. These idiots even messed up with the year. http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfisch/0,1518,grossbild-581506-394256,00.html
Of course JFK's usage was grammatically correct. Until I saw this Wikipedia article, I knew of no one claiming otherwise. What he did do is unwittingly use a local idiom, in which Berliner is a jelly donut.
The citation to BBC [2] is a from Letter from America, using storytelling, not an actual article. The Guardian [3] article also gives the myth as an anecdote -- the article is about printing media and is written by a graphic artist. They don't really feel like something that I'd qualify as "reputable" sources for information about presidential speeches, nor something that editors would generally try to correct. 128.195.15.99 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there is still a habit of "atleast there must be something in it". So I chose to rebuild the section on the jelly donut legend part as a strict deconstruction running point by point. The legend does not have any factual foundation based on the historic event - it is a pure invention made in the USA that might have been thrown up as a joke of "Did he say Berliner? Isn't there a donut by that name?". Guidod 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Every German language teacher or professor I ever had, including several who were native speakers, made a point of specifying this speech in the classroom as an example of incorrect grammar. Characterizing it as an urban legend is inappropriate. The article cites a single linguist in Kennedy's defense, then claims that the media made it up out of whole cloth: WP:NOR. While the bit about people laughing during the speech is probably exaggerated, it is (to many German speakers) the equivalent of the difference in English between saying "I am Danish." and "I am a danish." What mattered more at the time, of course, was that they understood the intention of Kennedy's sentiment.
And the question of whether the donut in question is sold in Berlin is moot: foods are often named after some distant place. The "French crullers" sold in American donut shops resemble no pastry I've seen in France, "English muffins" look like no muffin from England, "New York cheesecake" rarely resembles the cheesecakes actually sold in New York, "neapolitan" ice cream does not come from Naples, etc. Durova 13:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it would help to break down the interpretation of Kennedy's phrase based on who the listener was/is. I'm definitely not an expert on this subject as I don't speak German but I think it would be interesting to see someone else who understands the situation well to break it down by groups of listeners like the ones below.
Group 1. You speak German and you don't call pastries 'Berliners', probably because you live in Berlin:
You'd understand that Kennedy was referring to himself as one of many 'figurative' Berliners and you wouldn't think about pastries.
Group 2. You speak English only and you've never heard of jelly pastries being called Berliners'.
You'd have to rely on the English translation which was probably "I am a Berliner" or "I am a citizen of Berlin" and think about Kennedy being a 'citizen' of Berlin.
Group 3. You speak German and you call jelly pastries 'Berliners', probably because you live in Germany but not near Berlin.
You'd see that there are two interpretations to (Kennedy's) "Ich bin ein Berliner.":
Either
1. "I am a Berliner ('citizen' of Berlin)." with an implication/understanding that someone (like Kennedy) doesn't actually have to be a legal citizen of Berlin to be a 'citizen' of Berlin.
or
2. "I am a jelly pastry." - Literally, not even in the figurative sense! :-)
Now, which of 1 or 2 comes to mind first to someone in group 3 seems to depend on how strongly that person has associated 'Berliner' with "citizen of Berlin" relative to how strongly they associate 'Berliner' to jelly pastry.
Group 4: You speak English only but you've heard of pastries being called Berliners.
Here the two translations above will generate different reactions. What were the exact translations to English of Kennedy's phrase that were done on the spot and/or broadcasted?
Case 1: English translation: "I am a citizen of Berlin."
You'd understand that Kennedy was referring to himself as one of many 'figurative' Berliners and you wouldn't think about pastries.
Case 2: English translation: "I am a Berliner"
You may think about Kennedy being a jelly pastry but you wouldn't 'see' the alternative, 'self-directed as opposed to one of many', "Ich bin Berliner."
If the 'correct' way to say "I am a jelly pastry" for the people in group 3 is "Ich bin ein Berliner" then the article should point out that some people found it amusing in comparing the two meanings that are possible while/after determining what Kennedy meant by his remarks, even if what he said was grammatically correct for his intended meaning.
Synesthetic 06:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's make one thing very sure: the urban legend is not about a "possible play on words", it's about the claim of a "serious grammatical error" and a "historic fact" where Kennedy was laughed at. None of that is true. A theoretical possibility of making up a play on words does not imply there was a real possibility - especially as the situation in Germany was much to dramatic at the time as that anyone could even think of making up something, and that's commonly true to US citizens as well. In the midst of events, you would have need to be a very uninformed person (and probably very drunk as well) to make it up as a practical joke - more likely it was invented years later (from seeing the speech on tape) being turned in an urban legend where everyone says they know someone who knows a native German (or close-to-native-speaker German-teachar) that asserted the grammatical error. Which is untrue either, 100%. Guidod 20:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Some editors a while back insisted that there is no such thing as a sausage known as a Berliner. There definitely is, as a Google search of "Berliner sausage" indicates. Alan Pascoe 12:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
--
According to many a translation site and many a German, the correct way to say you are from a certain city is to say "Ich bin (city)." While we all love JFK and everyone knows exactly what he wanted to say, he did in fact call himself a Berliner, a type of jelly doughnut. While we cannot dispute what he was trying to say, this is not an urban legend and JFK did call himself a doughnut. Needs more documentation on how this is to be the correct way to say you are from a German city. (even if he did stress the "ein"). Cleric 20:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Cleric 21:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
How does this not contradict what is stated? I understand that it "has already been discussed to death" but if the linguist that is quoted in the article is stating that it has two meanings, then it is not a myth. Cleric 18:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, Onion, I think we are on different wave lengths here. I am not disputing that it means "a mail person from Berlin" or that it means "a deep-fried pastry filled with plum sauce similar to a jelly doughtnut." I am not disputing what he said (as we have both come to the conclusion that he said both these things). I am disputing that this is a myth/legend. He did say he was "a person from Berlin." He did say he was a "jelly doughnut." We have both agreed on this. What I am saying is that it is not a myth that he said these things... Cleric 21:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)