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(( See also
Talk:languages of the Caucasus ))
I have rewritten this page to make it clear that the proposed grouping of North and South Caucasian families is still only a conjecture with no linguitic evidence (i.e. there is no evidence that these four families form a genetic clade). Also noted that the name "Iberian" (historically identified with Georgia) has problematic political connotations.
Jorge Stolfi 07:29, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Infact Colchis was Georgia, Iberia was to its east. I am not sure whether there is any historical evidence that Iberia was actually Georgian in Language. It is perfectably acceptable to talk about Transcaucasian Iberia as a geographical area just as we would talk about the Iberian penninsular. Basques, Portugese or Spanish are not upset by the application because it is from antiquity and no-one knows exactly who the Western Iberians were. Likewise the Eastern Iberians. I would object however to any attempt to sieze the term for one ethnic group (georgians) whithout the historical evidence to back this up. When this is the case the use of the term becomes tainted, even chauvinistic. Zestauferov 05:35, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, it is getting even more confusing...
There may be one significant difference between the two Iberias, though. AFAIK, the name "Iberian Peninsula" has been used since classical times for the whole region, from the Pyrenees down, so it is accepted by all parties involved. However the Caucasian "Iberia", from what you say, never got to encompass all the "North Caucasian"-speaking regions -- or did it? If it did, wasn't Ossetia also included in it? Is there a record of when the Ossetians came to the North Caucasus?
Jorge Stolfi 06:57, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Good question. As far as my current understanding is, the territory which is now Ossetia may well have been classified as part of (transcaucasian) Iberia (again I don't have access to my UK library right now) but certainly Kalmykia would have been far beyond (and did not exist until after the oirat migrations). Do any on the Iberian penninsular inhabitants claim to be the original Iberians and that the others came later? I think this would be upsetting to the others if one group does. The ossetians are Alans, but maybe Alans were originally native to the Caucasus. Indeed, how do we know that the I.E.Alan tribes were not the original Iberians and that the other tribes gradually siezed the (transcaucasian) Iberian territory? As for the Avar/Lezgi/Dagerstanis, if Tolstov is right they may well have come to the west from Khwaresmia in the 5thC, so can we really call them Iberians? Needless to say they would certanly resent the suggestion that they came from the east now even if it were true, since there are plenty of factions ready to take over Dagestan & attempt to push them out if it were true. It is impreialistic for outsiders to claim to have the soberness to sort out the history of a region whose inhabitants the same outsiders claim are incapable of being objective. Of course we should avoid original research but need to see a clear presentation of the original sources without any interpretation.
Something like that is sufficient. Any specific identifications of tribe names like Meshkhetians or Tabbals etc. should be accompanied by sources and appear under the appropriate sub-category. In this case are the Taibiri & Meshkhetians thought to be Georgians? then don't place them here put themunder Gerogians and mention the source for their classification there. Zestauferov 16:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be an edit war going on here. I understand that there are two competing claims:
and that additionally there is a debate about whether 'Iberian' is a word that should be used.
I think the former debate seems to be creating the major edit war. What to do to resolve this? Martijn faassen 19:35, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
213.157.209.197 is Levzur, in case anyone's wondering... -- ChrisO 15:58, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
With all due respect, "Iberian-Caucasian languages" is not very good English. The appropriate form should be "Ibero-Caucasian languages" according to English word-formation rules. The article entitled "Iberian-Caucasian languages" should be renamed as (or moved to) "Ibero-Caucasian languages". The first reference in the article could read "The term Ibero-Caucasian (or Iberian-Caucasian)", but subsequent references in the same article should just read "Ibero-Caucasian". Furthermore, the reference to "Iberian-Caucasian languages" in the article "Languages of the Caucasus" should be changed to "Ibero-Caucasian languages". Also, I don't understand why there is so much strife over this term that the page has to be locked. The term refers only to a hypothetical grouping of languages, a "negative" grouping (i.e. based on the fact that its "member" languages are not members of any of the major language families around them), rather than a "positive" grouping. It is, in other words, simply a geographic notion. There is no substantive evidence supporting this grouping as a real language family, or superfamily, or even "phylum". Pasquale 19:53, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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(( See also
Talk:languages of the Caucasus ))
I have rewritten this page to make it clear that the proposed grouping of North and South Caucasian families is still only a conjecture with no linguitic evidence (i.e. there is no evidence that these four families form a genetic clade). Also noted that the name "Iberian" (historically identified with Georgia) has problematic political connotations.
Jorge Stolfi 07:29, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Infact Colchis was Georgia, Iberia was to its east. I am not sure whether there is any historical evidence that Iberia was actually Georgian in Language. It is perfectably acceptable to talk about Transcaucasian Iberia as a geographical area just as we would talk about the Iberian penninsular. Basques, Portugese or Spanish are not upset by the application because it is from antiquity and no-one knows exactly who the Western Iberians were. Likewise the Eastern Iberians. I would object however to any attempt to sieze the term for one ethnic group (georgians) whithout the historical evidence to back this up. When this is the case the use of the term becomes tainted, even chauvinistic. Zestauferov 05:35, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, it is getting even more confusing...
There may be one significant difference between the two Iberias, though. AFAIK, the name "Iberian Peninsula" has been used since classical times for the whole region, from the Pyrenees down, so it is accepted by all parties involved. However the Caucasian "Iberia", from what you say, never got to encompass all the "North Caucasian"-speaking regions -- or did it? If it did, wasn't Ossetia also included in it? Is there a record of when the Ossetians came to the North Caucasus?
Jorge Stolfi 06:57, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Good question. As far as my current understanding is, the territory which is now Ossetia may well have been classified as part of (transcaucasian) Iberia (again I don't have access to my UK library right now) but certainly Kalmykia would have been far beyond (and did not exist until after the oirat migrations). Do any on the Iberian penninsular inhabitants claim to be the original Iberians and that the others came later? I think this would be upsetting to the others if one group does. The ossetians are Alans, but maybe Alans were originally native to the Caucasus. Indeed, how do we know that the I.E.Alan tribes were not the original Iberians and that the other tribes gradually siezed the (transcaucasian) Iberian territory? As for the Avar/Lezgi/Dagerstanis, if Tolstov is right they may well have come to the west from Khwaresmia in the 5thC, so can we really call them Iberians? Needless to say they would certanly resent the suggestion that they came from the east now even if it were true, since there are plenty of factions ready to take over Dagestan & attempt to push them out if it were true. It is impreialistic for outsiders to claim to have the soberness to sort out the history of a region whose inhabitants the same outsiders claim are incapable of being objective. Of course we should avoid original research but need to see a clear presentation of the original sources without any interpretation.
Something like that is sufficient. Any specific identifications of tribe names like Meshkhetians or Tabbals etc. should be accompanied by sources and appear under the appropriate sub-category. In this case are the Taibiri & Meshkhetians thought to be Georgians? then don't place them here put themunder Gerogians and mention the source for their classification there. Zestauferov 16:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be an edit war going on here. I understand that there are two competing claims:
and that additionally there is a debate about whether 'Iberian' is a word that should be used.
I think the former debate seems to be creating the major edit war. What to do to resolve this? Martijn faassen 19:35, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
213.157.209.197 is Levzur, in case anyone's wondering... -- ChrisO 15:58, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
With all due respect, "Iberian-Caucasian languages" is not very good English. The appropriate form should be "Ibero-Caucasian languages" according to English word-formation rules. The article entitled "Iberian-Caucasian languages" should be renamed as (or moved to) "Ibero-Caucasian languages". The first reference in the article could read "The term Ibero-Caucasian (or Iberian-Caucasian)", but subsequent references in the same article should just read "Ibero-Caucasian". Furthermore, the reference to "Iberian-Caucasian languages" in the article "Languages of the Caucasus" should be changed to "Ibero-Caucasian languages". Also, I don't understand why there is so much strife over this term that the page has to be locked. The term refers only to a hypothetical grouping of languages, a "negative" grouping (i.e. based on the fact that its "member" languages are not members of any of the major language families around them), rather than a "positive" grouping. It is, in other words, simply a geographic notion. There is no substantive evidence supporting this grouping as a real language family, or superfamily, or even "phylum". Pasquale 19:53, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:26, 11 November 2017 (UTC)