This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hunnic language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I made some large changes to this article. The existing content I merely rewrote (not all of it, just parts) in more neuteral language.
I also added information about a Hungarian dr. Csaba Detre's claims of new Hunnic language vocabulary and grammar information find.
Please feel free to whip it into shape. I do believe that the information that is there is worth keeping. Despite the obviousness of Detre's Hun - Hungarian sympathies, the actual vocabulary does not readily bend to his pseudoscientific aims and may therefore be real. (Being a Hungarian speaker familiar with this sort of pseudoscientific stuff, I would expect far more convincing Hun - Hungarian matches than Detre is able to present.)
Additional information about the existence/authenticity of the Codex Isfahan and Codex Crete would be good. Perhaps some Arabic wikipedia editors could help... Zacharia Rhetor does bring up some arabic pages, and, of course, Isfahan is in Iran.
-- 69.158.25.93 18:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo, How do you figure that none of the content I added was worth keeping in any form? Just curious.
Oh, and your "more ballanced" info is a bit off. On what source are you basing the statement that the Hun language is *at all* related to Hungarian? Csaba Detre's document (about which you removed all information) certainly suggests so. But I do not think it is widely accepted by any linguists.
Even the Turkic connection is rather weakly established on account of the extremely low number of vocabulary items (and next to no other information) we have from the language. -- 69.158.25.93 20:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
He actually appears to be a legitimate and (seemingly respected) geologist. ( http://www.sulinet.hu/eletestudomany/archiv/1998/9827/foldunk/foldunk.html ) Tellingly though, he appears to have no linguistics or history qualifications/experience. -- 70.49.194.205 02:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
This page, which appears to have no relation to Csaba Detre or his work, speaks of the Codex Isfahan, describing it in a manner that gives credence to dr. Detre.
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/1000ad.htm
The texts (or words) are not readily understandable in Hungarian, contrary to the above. It is "attributed to the White Huns". So it sounds like that while there is no agreement, the Codex Isfahan may well contain a Hunnic vocabulary list and grammar information.
It is worth noting that this document is totally unknown in Hungary as an instance of "early Hungarian linguistic record". It is known only through Detre's work, and for not yet a full year. Regardless of whether or not it is Hunnic, I have considerable difficulty accepting it to be old Hungarian. I have a copy of "A MAGYAR NYELV kézikönyve" ("The Handbook of the Hungarian Language"), a 600 page linguistics work published by the Hungarian Scientific Academy (Magyar Tudományos Akadémia), and it does not have anything about the Codex Isfahan in it. This is rather strange, considering that if the Codex Isfahan contents are Hungarian, they are the oldest surviving record of the language. (and yes, there is mention of numerous other early records of Hungarian, all of which are from after 1000 AD though)
I am increasingly of the opinion, that information about Detre's document should make it into this article; however guardedly or hostilely qualified as "preliminary" or "questionable". Perhaps when Ghirlandajo is finished bulldozing the article, we could add something in, Stacey. -- 70.49.159.78 22:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Prof. Alfréd Tóth! Replying for your answer: The Codex of Isfahan was found in 1860. It is a Hunnic-Armenic grammar and vocabulary. Lot of parts are published from this vocabulary, where the most ancient Hungarian words could be found and the whole Hungarian grammar is included. Its date is V. century A.D. There is a second exemplar in the Bibliothec of Jerevan, and there is a IX century Turkish translation too in the library of Jerevan. Csaba Detre lived as a geograph in Isfahan for twenty years, he is of Armenic origin, and he copied lot of parts from the codex. It is an existing reality, the Detre is a good scientist. Yours: Kiszely István
-- 218.20.119.88 ( talk) 20:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The Huns were allied with the Magyars (Hungarians) - what does this mean ? the Huns from 400 were allied with the Magyars from 900 ? is there a historic source atesting this alliance ? Criztu 12:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Magyars (Hungarians) in the 5th century were allied with Huns, and there is hystorical source for that.and one more thing: the hungarian language contains 90% of hunnic names,for example: Attila,Csaba, Szabolcs, Ellák, Zoltán,Aladár, Emöke and I could write more...
Everything I have seen on the topic states that there are less than four attested Hunnic words that are not proper names, for example strava, "funeral". Furthermore in the case of proper names, as for example Attila itself, I have seen numerous proposed etymological explanations, some of which link, for example, the Turkic ata "father" with the Gothic diminutive suffix -ila as found in e.g. the name Ulfilas. Therefore I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to state with any certainty to which language family Hunnic may have belonged.-- KASchmidt 10:02, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
This article desperately needs sourced vocabulary lists. No one can say anything about the language unless the examples are given. Also it is not clearwhich kinds of Huns are being inferred here. The European Huns of Attila? The Huns of the Caucasus & Caspo-Aral region who bothered kingdoms like Armenia & Persia? Or the Huns that broke into northern India & Pakistan? Or the Huns that harrassed northern China? Each of these groups have names and terms which have survived and there is no reason to assume they all belong to the same language family. Lists please!
-- Unsigned
The jury is still out on this. Gathering evidence points to the possibility that they spoke a Yeneseian language, of which Ket is related/descended. Ligeti showed a Chinese transliterated Xiong-nu word meaning 'high boot' can be traced to Ket. See the talk page for Xiongnu for the reference. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 20:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Some Russian linguist, I believe Dul'zon, in Ketskiy Yazyk (Ket Language), stated that Ket and Hunnic are closely related, that the Ket and Huns left their home in what is now eastern Mongolia together and only split when they reached the Yenisei River. I also read in an older book on the Huns that the only affinity shown by the Hunnic language was to the Yeniseian languages. Mikenassau 16:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
There was 2 diferent nation of huns.
East(black): they languange is close the Kumi chuvas. It is remain in "codex chumanorum".
West(white): They languange is same the
khazarsμαζαροισ/(VII.Konstantin)
.
There is no definitive proof that the European Huns and the Ephthalites (White Huns) were related. What is "Kumi chuvas"? The Codex Cumanicus describes a z-Turkic language. The Chuvash language is r-Turkic. Therefore the Codex cannot contain remnants of Chuvash. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Another emerging and disputed theory from the previously unknown Esfahan codex suggests that the Hunnic language was Ugric in character. This codex, from an Armenian monestary in Persia, was supposedly discovered in the 1970s but the discovery was suppressed. Conveniently the manuscript has disappeared since then and is thought to be for sale to the highest bidder. In the provisional edition of an upcoming publication on the topic, a few pages show that some words are very similar with the ancient Hungarian language. The Hunnic words were discovered accidentally and were written in ancient Armenian letters from the 4th or 5th century. The first major interpretations are under way by Dr. Csaba Detre.
Strava is said to be Hunnic word for "funeral". Despite Huns were allegedly a Turkic people, this word sounds rather Russian to me (AFAIK, Turkish doesn't have initial consonant clusters). Is it possible that the Huns were ancestors of Slavs?-- Al-Bargit 17:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Of course Huns were not Slavs. Slavs are white Europeans, Huns are Asian. Europeans borrowed many Hun and Magyar words, it is not necessarily the case that it is the opposite way. -- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 21:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
-- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 15:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I just noticed that the editor who added the following paragraph to the article got the meaning wrong (the problem is with the part I've italicized below):
"1997 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica reasons that "It is assumed that the Huns also were speakers of an r- and l-type Turkic language and that their migration was responsible for the appearance of this language in the West. The r- and l-type language is now documented only by Chuvash, a language considered as a descendant of a Volga-Bulgarian language. The rest of the Turkic languages are of the z- and s-type". However, this is contrary to the 2007 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica which states that "Attempts at interpreting earlier materials as Turkic (e.g., the identification of Hunnic elements in Chinese sources from the 4th century AD) have failed.""
The quoted sentence belongs to the Linguistic History subsection of an overview article of the Turkic language family. The subsection is two paragraphs long, first of which briefly talks about the interrelations within the family, and the second outlining the development of branches and the earliest written sources. The actual context of the cited sentence is as follows, at the beginning of the second paragraph (link to the whole text: [1]):
"The linguistic history of the Turkic languages can be followed in written sources from the 8th century on. Attempts at interpreting earlier materials as Turkic (e.g., the identification of Hunnic elements in Chinese sources from the 4th century AD) have failed. The Uighur, Oghuz, Kipchak, and Bolgar branches were already differentiated in the oldest known period. In subsequent centuries, Turkic underwent further divergence corresponding to its gradual diffusion."
As I get this, the earliest written sources associated with the Turkic family date from the 8th century. The attempts as interpreting earlier materials (e.g. materials in Chinese sources from the 4th century AD) as Turkic (e.g. searching for Hunnic elements within these sources) failed. As I understand, for trying to follow the history of Turkic languages in sources earlier than the 8th century, linguists refer to sources external to Turkic speakers of the period, such as 4th century Chinese sources, and within these, look for possibly noted Turkic elements, for the Chinese case Hunnic elements, as the Chinese of the period were in contact with Hunnic speakers.
I honestly believe that this was a misunderstanding of the cited source. Seeing that there is nothing contrary to the information presented in the prior edition of the same encyclopedia, I'm removing the last sentence. I hope I explained the situation clearly enough. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 04:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 16:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Is it just me or does the Altaic template seem useless, especially applied on language pages where the Infobox clearly displays language association? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I support Sborsody's removing the bogus word list of unsourced "hunnic" words relating Hunnic to Hungarian. Consistent with that, I have eliminated form the article all references to Hungarian: Hungarian is a Uralic language, not a Turkic one, though it has a certain amount of Turkic loan-words. The Oghur languages to which Hunnic belongs are Turkic. There is no direct relationship between Uralic and Turkic though a distant relationship has once been assumed to exist via a hypothetical Ural-Altaic. Eklir ( talk) 07:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
MagyarTurk keeps adding it back in. The list is: Tengri,Kut,Kız,Katun,Tug,Büyü,Orda,Bar,Böri,Tat,Tok,El,Kılıç,kezi,veri. MagyarTurk is now attempting to add Dr. Csaba Detre as a source for this. 1) These words don't even show up in Detre's list and 2) Detre's work is considered original research and unverifiable as discussed previously on this talk page. As much fun as the Esfahani Codex is, it hasn't been peer-reviewed. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The article states that the Hun language was spoken from China to Europe, yet there is not a single mention of Xiongnu in the article. Furthermore, if you are going to claim it being spoken in China, then it should be known many Chinese and even Mongolian researchers today believe Huns are the ancestors of Hungarians (Magyars). I just bought several books on my trip to China on the subject (written not long ago), and while there are no English translations yet available, I could provide the names and backgrounds of said authors for anyone who is interested. One of the books even has two chapters in it titled "Not the ancestors of Turks" and "Not the ancestors of Mongols" -- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 13:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
What is this? Are there some other sources for it? As I see the publication appeared in 1995, did it gain some acceptation since then? Dzsoker ( talk) 17:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC) There are series of inscriptions in east Gothic or early Turkic on silver plates in runic script found near Kazan that mention Diggiz Qaghan, that appear to be in reference to Dengizich. The plates are real, and there are other artifacts as well that are clearly Hunnic associated with them from a period around when he would have died and later. Do not extrapolate too much from it but the artifacts are there, and some have inscriptions in a runic style alphabet. It would be great if we could get access to them and pictures of them from the Kazan museum or ministry of culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.197.7 ( talk) 09:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
If some Turkic adopted few words from Huns who preceded them it does not change the obvious fact Hunnic language is Ugric . Why should ansectors of Hungarians talk on different language? Edelward ( talk) 14:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
This what says in this article
Mugel[1] (or Muageris) was the successor of Grod (or Grodas), a Hunnic ruler, from the neighborhood of the city of Bosporus [Boon Phoros: "cattle tax"] in Patria Onoguria. His reign lasted only 2 years, from AD 528 to 530. After him, the dominion of Patria Onoguria over northern Oghuric tribes, from the southern Russian steppes to the western Ukraine, diminished and were aggregated by the Pseudo-Avars before restoration under Gokturk rule.
Not so long ago, historical research concluded the term magyar[2] derived from the name of (prince) Muageris, by arguing that "Muageris" had to be a personal name taken from the descriptive designation of a people. Edelward ( talk) 15:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
"reverted to Eurasian steppe - identification of Huns with Xiongnu is uncertain and even if true does not imply that they spoke the same language"
The article says that the Hunnic language is considered to belong to the "Oghur" branch of Turkic languages. It seems there is no problem making this statement without any evidence to support it. Perhaps I am missing something about how some theories are accepted without any evidence, yet other theories with evidence are omitted. -- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 23:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
hunnic confederation consist of utrigur and kutrigur tribes. ogur turkic r sound transforms to z sound in modern turkic. so oghur people are oghuz people. and kutrigur means kotuz (nine) oghuz, utrigur means utuz (thirty) oghuz. oghuz or oghur words came from turkic ok (arrow). in turkic tribal confederations each clan represented with an arrow. like onok (ten arrows), onogur, tokuz oghuz tribal unions. so there is some evidence that suggest hunnic tribes contained at least large proportion of turkic stock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.66.126 ( talk) 22:59, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
The addition needs work. Here's what is at issue:
If we do not handle these issues, this article looks POV-ish. We need to decide if this article is going to focus only on the European Huns or try to bridge both. Quite a bit of information about the Xiongnu language is contained within the Xiongnu article. It could possibly be moved here if we decide to keep the wider scope. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 18:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
There are a number of issues raised in the discussion:
Does anyone watching this article have a source that includes our meager corpus of likely Hunnic words / names? I think they would make a nice addition to the article. At the same time, what about that Diggiz plate? Is there any further info to be had on it? Trigaranus ( talk) 16:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
"For the subjects of the Huns, swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or--as many as have commercial dealings with the western Romans--Latin"
The above quote mentions that Hunnic, Gothic and Latin were spoken, not that the lingua franca was Gothic. A better source should be found to support such claims.
It is likely as the Goths were a big part of the Hunnic empire but that is besides the point as the source being used makes no mention of which language is the lingua franca, Hun, Latin or Gothic. If anything it mentions Hunnic, Gothic and Latin being equally spoken as well as the native languages of the various groups that made up the confederation. Sigurd Dragon Slayer ( talk) 12:47, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Turkish name Onur is not related to Hunor. It is a French word "honneur". -- 78.183.235.226 ( talk) 10:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Gothic is mentioned as being spoken as a second language by (some) subjects of the Huns. I have rephrased the comment more cautiously. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:02, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Gothic and Latin are also discussed as a languages along with Hunnic used by subjects specifically in the context of commercial dealings. It makes sense, you have the Goths in the court, multiethnic slaves from the pontic and other regions, and a large group of languages in the horde. It is a familiar pattern from the Eurasian steppe as per Mallory and Anthony and voluminous work in Chinese, Russian and western sources on this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.197.7 ( talk) 09:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I have removed a comment based on an 1882 reference, diff is http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hunnic_language&action=historysubmit&diff=473492610&oldid=473414260. For several reasons I suggest that it should stay removed.
In full it was: "However, there is a controversial and maybe not correct opinion regarding the word kamos, according to Hermann Vámbéry it would resemble the Turkic kimiz, a drink made of milk. The incorrectness of this opinion is given by the fact that the Hunnic kamos is made of barley and not milk. Still, a linguistic affinity with Turkic is existent.<ref>[http://books.google.de/books?ei=xtUhT-XgJY22hAeevK3fBA&id=570FAAAAQAAJ&dq=Der+Ursprung+der+Magyaren%3A+Eine+ethnologische+Studie Ármin Vámbéry, Der Ursprung der Magyaren: Eine ethnologische Studie, F.A. Brockhaus, 1882, p.28]</ref>"
This strikes me as internally inconsistent (first it says that the words could be related and then that they clearly aren't), and it seems to be an inappropriate use of a comment from 1882, admittedly by someone far better at the relevant languages than I will ever be. We should be documenting current scholarly consensus, and live arguments if there are any, using current sources. Even in this field, 1882 is not current scholarship. A minor issue is that I cannot find the text "kamos" or "kimiz" in the Google Book reference given. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised that Hunnic is classified as specifically Oghuric/Lir-Turkic by all the sources. As argued by O. Maenchen-Helfen here (in my view convincingly), the proper name Dengizich reflects *däŋiziq (or *deŋiziq; I'm not sure what the first vowel originally was) "little lake". However, *däŋiz (or *deŋiz), from Proto-Turkic *täŋiz (or *teŋiz, as in Old Turkic of the Orkhon inscriptions) is incompatible with Oghuric: one should expect *täŋir (or *teŋir, compare the loanword Hungarian tenger from Oghuric) instead. The (Common Turkic) z points to a non-Oghuric branch, and (provided that the spellings of the ancient sources really reflect a Turkic d) the initial d even seems to point specifically to the Oghuzic branch (compare Modern Anatolian Turkish deniz, where the old *ŋ has merged with n), although the same development of initial t is apparently found in non-Oghuzic languages ( Tuvan and Fuyü Gïrgïs) as well and thus may not be truly diagnostic.
(Note that this conclusion is strictly based on reasoning out of the available evidence; I was surprised by it myself, and I would be very interested to see the evidence cited by the sources for their differing classification; I am neutral politically and, lacking any personal connections with Turkey, have no horse in this game and am certainly not attempting to "prove that the Huns were the ancestors of the Turks (of Turkey)" or some such nonsense, just pointing something out.) -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 20:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
We have recently had the following removed on the grounds that it's a "bad source":
the inscription on the Khan Diggiz plate has been interpreted as giving the name of a known Western Hunnic king, Dengizich, son of Attila, in a form of Turkic.<ref>Azgar Mukhamadiev. "The Khan Diggiz Dish Inscription". Excerpts from the article "Turanian Writing", in: ''Problems Of Linguoethnohistory Of The Tatar People'', Kazan, 1995, pages 36–83 [http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/32WritingHuns/Diggiz3En.htm]</ref><ref>Muhamadiev A. ''"Ancient coins of Kazan"'', Kazan, 2005, pp. 37–41, ISBN 5-298-04057-8</ref>
It may be less than ideal, but it strikes me as reliable within Wikipedia's definition and at least slightly interesting in the context of this article. Should we perhaps have it back? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 16:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, it's an issue of how much weight we give to that view. This article does need to go over the various hypotheses to justify its existence. The lead is adequately summarizing the (lack of) academic consensus. It's a bit odd that the Dikkiz plate is not discussed by anyone else (besides Mukhamadiev). When was it discovered? Tijfo098 ( talk) 05:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC) There are a number of artifacts in the museum collections of Kazan that need to be independently verified for accuracy and it would be nice if you could get pictures of them to request to see the inscriptions I am sure it would help clear things up considerably. Some of the objects found in that collection are undeniable Hunnic cauldrons and ever early east gothic or what might be Hunnic inscriptions being interpreted as a Turkic language. It would be nice if someone here could ask the Kazan museum for photographs of the Hunnic objects in their archaeological collections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.197.7 ( talk) 09:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Dear Richard Keatinge, I do not understand your deletion of the referenced facts associated with the Hunnic language. If you have problems with any cited fact, we can discuss it further, but a wholesale deletion of the citation appears to be unjustified, rather the intent is to curtail the studies pertaining to the Huns and their language. You retained Pritsak's reference, for example, although Pritsak's study is miniscule in scope and the sources used, and was limited to the onomasticon, which is recognized to be only a supplementary material, to corroborate observations drawn from the other sources - historical, ethnological, archeological, etc. Please reconsider your deletion of the cited reference, or find reasons to refute any of the cited material. I will be more than glad to supply you with any additional pertaining material. Barefact ( talk) 22:36, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
"The literary records for Hunnish consist only of a few names and three non-Turkic words..."
Grant | Talk 12:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Second, current nationalist feelings are strong; some people are very keen to claim Huns as their ancestors and linguistic kin.
Third, the records of (European) Hunnic really are scanty and the only three recorded words have been identified as probably Slavic or something similar. The European Huns had swept up a wide variety of tribes (Germanic-speaking Goths and Iranian-speaking Alans are attested in large numbers) and even if their leading clans had originally spoken something pre-Turkic when they left the borders of China, they might well have shifted language by the time they reached the Danube centuries later. Or they might be speaking a changed version of their original language, heavily mixed with other language families.
That said, we may need some brief mention of the Yeniseian idea. Do you feel inclined to do a bold edit? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
User:Akocsg is continuing his POV editing by adding Turkic to the infobox, when clearly there are six different theories presented and referenced. Is Akocsg going to add the other theories to the infobox? -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 00:17, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
MY SOURCES ARE RELIABLE. They all cite proper books written my university professors. Please stop removing my edits. What is better. Teaching everyone only 3 words, medos, kamos and strava, or teaching everyone c.30 words like I added, plus how to conjugate verbs in the present tense, plus a few verbs plus how to say, Ito be able to + infitive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAddict2000 ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Because it is causing a Checkwiki error #70: "ISBN with wrong length", I removed the ISBN from the entry:
Mukhamadiev, Azgar G. 1995. "The inscription on the plate of Khan Diggiz." In: In: Problems of the lingo-ethno-history of the Tatar people. Kazan: Tatarskoe knizhnoe izd-vo, pp. 36–83. (ISBN 5-201-08300, in Russian). Translated from the Russian into English, www.turkicworld.org.[6]
I have tried unsuccessfully to locate the correct ISBN or WorldCat id on the Internet. Knife-in-the-drawer ( talk) 02:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
First, you have to understand who were the (European) Huns. They were not Xiongnu, nor they were Turks. Huns were conglomeration of Yuezhi-Usun-Asi tribes. Usuns were tochars who were turkisized as early as 4 BC and they spoke a form of Turkic language, Yuezhi are more controversial, probably they spoke a mixture of Tocharian - protoTurkic - protoMongolian. When these tribes move to Kazahstan, an Iranian substratum was added. In modern (Danube) Bulgarian language there are many tocharian words even today. Volga Bulgars probably originated from Usuns, they didn't practiced artificial cranial deformation, while Danube Bulgars have their origin in Yuezhi and their language was less Turkisized. 93.152.143.113 ( talk) 02:28, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm too tired to search for sources, but someone could add the information that nobody knows Attila's Hunnic name. Attila is Gothic and means "little father". Sorte Slyngel ( talk) 01:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
I found a source and edited this article, and the source tells me Hunnic is a Uralic language.
Here is the source: (In Hungarian): http://filozofia.wplanet.hu/tag_va.html HorseSnack ( talk) 14:31, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Hunnic language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:53, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
3oun= jyt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB90:67A:7E8F:6CEE:786A:E1B8:7E85 ( talk) 02:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
The article claims that the Huns called their language Hunlir tel. But since we know only 36 words that are attributed to this language (33 of which are proper names), this seems to have no backing. So, does any person have a citation for this claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.116.59 ( talk) 17:14, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Jingiby:, you recently added a link to Altaic languages into the lead of this article. The lead of the article Altaic languages, however, says that this theory is "now widely seen as discredited". I'm wondering whether it's appropriate to link to it then. I actually removed a similar link from the article Huns just yesterday for the same reason.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 13:05, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
Can anyone find any reliable sources claiming that the Huns spoke Uralic? If not, I think the section ought to be removed.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (
link)
Can anyone verify that "Mukhamediev, Azgar (1995). Zăkiev, M. Z., ed. Problemy lingvoėtnoistorii tatarskogo naroda. Kazan. p. 195." is a reliable source? If not, the information provided from this source (which seems suspicious) should be removed from the article.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 18:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Hungarian Turcologist Gyula Németh makes the following statement on the language of the Huns of Europe in his article titled What Language Speaked by Huns in 1939: Based on all these, we can say that the ruling clan of the European Huns and of course the Hun people also spoke the Turkish language, more precisely, they were Turkic as a people. [19 ] Lajos Ligeti also makes the following determinations about the language of the European Huns in the article Attila and the Historical Origins of the Huns: ... the conclusion that can be drawn from the existing ones, we are confronted with a Turkic-speaking people in both regions. [19] Péter Váczy supports Latin writers in Anthropology in his article Huns in Europe; Huns were Turks. But what was Turkish was not only their external appearance, but their language was also Turkish. makes the definition. [19]
Some historians such as Karl Heinrich Menges and Omeljan Pritsak have stated that the possible origins of the language are close to Mongolian or Turkic languages, based on special names in Hunca and for ethnological reasons. [20] It was argued by Menges that this language might have been a combination of the Mongolian and Turkic languages. [20] Pritsak 33 Hunca analyzed the proper name and claimed that the language was not Turkic, but could be a language found between Turkic languages and Mongolian, closer to Turkic languages such as Pre-Bulgarian and Yakut. [21]
Otto Maenchen-Helfen has argued that many Hunca proper names may have Turkic origin. [22] Denis Sinor and Hyun Jin Kim also reached the same conclusion, although they stated that it is very difficult to classify the language due to the lack of resources, and claimed that at least part of the ruling segment is of Turkic origin. [6] [23] Although historian Peter Heather described Turkic origins as the best guess, in 1995 [24] declared that he was skeptical about these theories [16] and stated that in 2010 Hunca was never known. [17] Metehan Uygur7 ( talk) 09:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm sorry I didn't see it, but I'd appreciate it if you'd add what I wrote. Metehan Uygur7 ( talk) 23:37, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
In many topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Jingiby ( talk) 12:20, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Why mentioning Yeniseian but ignoring Iranian. That is in no way NPOV. But POV. Sorry, but what is your problem? Orange172212 ( talk) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC) @ Ermenrich: your thoughts, you seem to be the most reliable user here, unlike some other feelings motivated editors, which do not even care to read the respective sources. Pinging also @ TaivoLinguist: recently involved in the discussion in Hunno-Bulgar languages. Orange172212 ( talk) 12:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)Alternative hypotheses include their identification with the speakers of Eastern Iranian (Bailey, 1985: 25) or groups of “Paleo-Asiatic”, namely Yeniseian, origin (Vovin, 2000, 2002; Vovin et al., 2016, an idea going back to Ligeti, 1950, and Pulleyblank, 1962).
The Hunnic titles are common titles of the nomadic steppe world. Most of them are attested in Turkic, but their ultimate origins may lie outside the Turkic family, as is most likely the case for the title of khagan (χαγάνος, chaganus) < ? Middle Iranian *hva-kama- ‘self-ruler, emperor’ (Dybo, Reference Dybo2007: 119–120)... Following Benveniste (Reference Benveniste1966), Dybo (Reference Dybo2007: 106–107) considers Turkic *χatun ‘king's wife’ a word of ultimate Eastern Iranian origin, borrowed presumably from Early Saka *hvatuñ, cf. the attested Soghdian words xwt'w ‘ruler’ (< *hva-tāvya-) and xwt'yn ‘wife of the ruler’ (< *hva-tāvyani). For a possible Eastern Iranian etymology of another title, khagan, see Section 2.2.
The few common nouns that were recorded as part of the European Hunnic vocabulary are all of local origin, and the personal names of the Huns include items that are connected to the Indo-European languages of Europe (Germanic and Ossetic, in particular). This implies a crucial role of Western Eurasian components in the formation of the Huns. The titles of the Huns are broadly related to the steppe nomadic world, but no specific connection with the early Turkic speakers of eastern steppe (respectively the Xiongnu as their historical and archaeological counterpart) can be firmly established on this basis. The ambiguity of possible interpretations is as much the case for the Hunnic personal names for which a Turkic origin was previously proposed. To sum up, while historical and archaeological evidence may imply the inclusion of some steppe component among the Huns, the very limited linguistic and genetic data do not provide support for linking this component with the eastern part of the Eurasian steppe, or the Xiongnu specifically.
Recent research has revealed that in chapter 96 of the Book of Han (Han-shu), entitled "Western Regions", the Xiong-nu gave the title "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" to a ruler of the Lesser Wu-sun Kun-mo, a descendant of a Xiong-nu princess, who was killed in 30 BC as a result of a throne dispute. In chapter 50 of the Tongdian, Chinese sources clearly define the meaning of "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" as "wolf". With this military-political title, the Wu-sun were declared the protector of the western region of the Xiong-nu territories. For the same reason, this title was given to the ruler of the western wing of the state in the Gokturks, Seljuks, Khwarazmians, Mongols and Anatolian Turkish beyliks. In addition, the word "böri" is a word used in all Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Korean, Japanese, Manchu- Tungus with the meaning of "wolf". These results may have revealed a connection with Altaic languages, especially Turkic languages.
@Kansas Bear @Ermenrich Why is not this text about Hunnic language? -- Philosophia091 ( talk) 19:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
These results may have revealed a connection with Altaic languages, especially Turkic languages.) is not obvious given the preceding content of the paragraph. You may need to draw those connections more clearly, and you will definitely need to cite a reliable source that has drawn those connections. ( This is not just your own conclusion, is it?) WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 20:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Mnkhprre: - why are you adding this here? There's nothing to suggest that a Runic inscription from Syria has anything to do with the language spoken by Attila's Huns. This is probably WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, not to mention WP:FRINGE.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hunnic language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I made some large changes to this article. The existing content I merely rewrote (not all of it, just parts) in more neuteral language.
I also added information about a Hungarian dr. Csaba Detre's claims of new Hunnic language vocabulary and grammar information find.
Please feel free to whip it into shape. I do believe that the information that is there is worth keeping. Despite the obviousness of Detre's Hun - Hungarian sympathies, the actual vocabulary does not readily bend to his pseudoscientific aims and may therefore be real. (Being a Hungarian speaker familiar with this sort of pseudoscientific stuff, I would expect far more convincing Hun - Hungarian matches than Detre is able to present.)
Additional information about the existence/authenticity of the Codex Isfahan and Codex Crete would be good. Perhaps some Arabic wikipedia editors could help... Zacharia Rhetor does bring up some arabic pages, and, of course, Isfahan is in Iran.
-- 69.158.25.93 18:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo, How do you figure that none of the content I added was worth keeping in any form? Just curious.
Oh, and your "more ballanced" info is a bit off. On what source are you basing the statement that the Hun language is *at all* related to Hungarian? Csaba Detre's document (about which you removed all information) certainly suggests so. But I do not think it is widely accepted by any linguists.
Even the Turkic connection is rather weakly established on account of the extremely low number of vocabulary items (and next to no other information) we have from the language. -- 69.158.25.93 20:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
He actually appears to be a legitimate and (seemingly respected) geologist. ( http://www.sulinet.hu/eletestudomany/archiv/1998/9827/foldunk/foldunk.html ) Tellingly though, he appears to have no linguistics or history qualifications/experience. -- 70.49.194.205 02:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
This page, which appears to have no relation to Csaba Detre or his work, speaks of the Codex Isfahan, describing it in a manner that gives credence to dr. Detre.
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/1000ad.htm
The texts (or words) are not readily understandable in Hungarian, contrary to the above. It is "attributed to the White Huns". So it sounds like that while there is no agreement, the Codex Isfahan may well contain a Hunnic vocabulary list and grammar information.
It is worth noting that this document is totally unknown in Hungary as an instance of "early Hungarian linguistic record". It is known only through Detre's work, and for not yet a full year. Regardless of whether or not it is Hunnic, I have considerable difficulty accepting it to be old Hungarian. I have a copy of "A MAGYAR NYELV kézikönyve" ("The Handbook of the Hungarian Language"), a 600 page linguistics work published by the Hungarian Scientific Academy (Magyar Tudományos Akadémia), and it does not have anything about the Codex Isfahan in it. This is rather strange, considering that if the Codex Isfahan contents are Hungarian, they are the oldest surviving record of the language. (and yes, there is mention of numerous other early records of Hungarian, all of which are from after 1000 AD though)
I am increasingly of the opinion, that information about Detre's document should make it into this article; however guardedly or hostilely qualified as "preliminary" or "questionable". Perhaps when Ghirlandajo is finished bulldozing the article, we could add something in, Stacey. -- 70.49.159.78 22:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Prof. Alfréd Tóth! Replying for your answer: The Codex of Isfahan was found in 1860. It is a Hunnic-Armenic grammar and vocabulary. Lot of parts are published from this vocabulary, where the most ancient Hungarian words could be found and the whole Hungarian grammar is included. Its date is V. century A.D. There is a second exemplar in the Bibliothec of Jerevan, and there is a IX century Turkish translation too in the library of Jerevan. Csaba Detre lived as a geograph in Isfahan for twenty years, he is of Armenic origin, and he copied lot of parts from the codex. It is an existing reality, the Detre is a good scientist. Yours: Kiszely István
-- 218.20.119.88 ( talk) 20:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The Huns were allied with the Magyars (Hungarians) - what does this mean ? the Huns from 400 were allied with the Magyars from 900 ? is there a historic source atesting this alliance ? Criztu 12:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Magyars (Hungarians) in the 5th century were allied with Huns, and there is hystorical source for that.and one more thing: the hungarian language contains 90% of hunnic names,for example: Attila,Csaba, Szabolcs, Ellák, Zoltán,Aladár, Emöke and I could write more...
Everything I have seen on the topic states that there are less than four attested Hunnic words that are not proper names, for example strava, "funeral". Furthermore in the case of proper names, as for example Attila itself, I have seen numerous proposed etymological explanations, some of which link, for example, the Turkic ata "father" with the Gothic diminutive suffix -ila as found in e.g. the name Ulfilas. Therefore I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to state with any certainty to which language family Hunnic may have belonged.-- KASchmidt 10:02, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
This article desperately needs sourced vocabulary lists. No one can say anything about the language unless the examples are given. Also it is not clearwhich kinds of Huns are being inferred here. The European Huns of Attila? The Huns of the Caucasus & Caspo-Aral region who bothered kingdoms like Armenia & Persia? Or the Huns that broke into northern India & Pakistan? Or the Huns that harrassed northern China? Each of these groups have names and terms which have survived and there is no reason to assume they all belong to the same language family. Lists please!
-- Unsigned
The jury is still out on this. Gathering evidence points to the possibility that they spoke a Yeneseian language, of which Ket is related/descended. Ligeti showed a Chinese transliterated Xiong-nu word meaning 'high boot' can be traced to Ket. See the talk page for Xiongnu for the reference. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 20:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Some Russian linguist, I believe Dul'zon, in Ketskiy Yazyk (Ket Language), stated that Ket and Hunnic are closely related, that the Ket and Huns left their home in what is now eastern Mongolia together and only split when they reached the Yenisei River. I also read in an older book on the Huns that the only affinity shown by the Hunnic language was to the Yeniseian languages. Mikenassau 16:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
There was 2 diferent nation of huns.
East(black): they languange is close the Kumi chuvas. It is remain in "codex chumanorum".
West(white): They languange is same the
khazarsμαζαροισ/(VII.Konstantin)
.
There is no definitive proof that the European Huns and the Ephthalites (White Huns) were related. What is "Kumi chuvas"? The Codex Cumanicus describes a z-Turkic language. The Chuvash language is r-Turkic. Therefore the Codex cannot contain remnants of Chuvash. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Another emerging and disputed theory from the previously unknown Esfahan codex suggests that the Hunnic language was Ugric in character. This codex, from an Armenian monestary in Persia, was supposedly discovered in the 1970s but the discovery was suppressed. Conveniently the manuscript has disappeared since then and is thought to be for sale to the highest bidder. In the provisional edition of an upcoming publication on the topic, a few pages show that some words are very similar with the ancient Hungarian language. The Hunnic words were discovered accidentally and were written in ancient Armenian letters from the 4th or 5th century. The first major interpretations are under way by Dr. Csaba Detre.
Strava is said to be Hunnic word for "funeral". Despite Huns were allegedly a Turkic people, this word sounds rather Russian to me (AFAIK, Turkish doesn't have initial consonant clusters). Is it possible that the Huns were ancestors of Slavs?-- Al-Bargit 17:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Of course Huns were not Slavs. Slavs are white Europeans, Huns are Asian. Europeans borrowed many Hun and Magyar words, it is not necessarily the case that it is the opposite way. -- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 21:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
-- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 15:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I just noticed that the editor who added the following paragraph to the article got the meaning wrong (the problem is with the part I've italicized below):
"1997 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica reasons that "It is assumed that the Huns also were speakers of an r- and l-type Turkic language and that their migration was responsible for the appearance of this language in the West. The r- and l-type language is now documented only by Chuvash, a language considered as a descendant of a Volga-Bulgarian language. The rest of the Turkic languages are of the z- and s-type". However, this is contrary to the 2007 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica which states that "Attempts at interpreting earlier materials as Turkic (e.g., the identification of Hunnic elements in Chinese sources from the 4th century AD) have failed.""
The quoted sentence belongs to the Linguistic History subsection of an overview article of the Turkic language family. The subsection is two paragraphs long, first of which briefly talks about the interrelations within the family, and the second outlining the development of branches and the earliest written sources. The actual context of the cited sentence is as follows, at the beginning of the second paragraph (link to the whole text: [1]):
"The linguistic history of the Turkic languages can be followed in written sources from the 8th century on. Attempts at interpreting earlier materials as Turkic (e.g., the identification of Hunnic elements in Chinese sources from the 4th century AD) have failed. The Uighur, Oghuz, Kipchak, and Bolgar branches were already differentiated in the oldest known period. In subsequent centuries, Turkic underwent further divergence corresponding to its gradual diffusion."
As I get this, the earliest written sources associated with the Turkic family date from the 8th century. The attempts as interpreting earlier materials (e.g. materials in Chinese sources from the 4th century AD) as Turkic (e.g. searching for Hunnic elements within these sources) failed. As I understand, for trying to follow the history of Turkic languages in sources earlier than the 8th century, linguists refer to sources external to Turkic speakers of the period, such as 4th century Chinese sources, and within these, look for possibly noted Turkic elements, for the Chinese case Hunnic elements, as the Chinese of the period were in contact with Hunnic speakers.
I honestly believe that this was a misunderstanding of the cited source. Seeing that there is nothing contrary to the information presented in the prior edition of the same encyclopedia, I'm removing the last sentence. I hope I explained the situation clearly enough. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 04:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 16:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Is it just me or does the Altaic template seem useless, especially applied on language pages where the Infobox clearly displays language association? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I support Sborsody's removing the bogus word list of unsourced "hunnic" words relating Hunnic to Hungarian. Consistent with that, I have eliminated form the article all references to Hungarian: Hungarian is a Uralic language, not a Turkic one, though it has a certain amount of Turkic loan-words. The Oghur languages to which Hunnic belongs are Turkic. There is no direct relationship between Uralic and Turkic though a distant relationship has once been assumed to exist via a hypothetical Ural-Altaic. Eklir ( talk) 07:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
MagyarTurk keeps adding it back in. The list is: Tengri,Kut,Kız,Katun,Tug,Büyü,Orda,Bar,Böri,Tat,Tok,El,Kılıç,kezi,veri. MagyarTurk is now attempting to add Dr. Csaba Detre as a source for this. 1) These words don't even show up in Detre's list and 2) Detre's work is considered original research and unverifiable as discussed previously on this talk page. As much fun as the Esfahani Codex is, it hasn't been peer-reviewed. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 23:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The article states that the Hun language was spoken from China to Europe, yet there is not a single mention of Xiongnu in the article. Furthermore, if you are going to claim it being spoken in China, then it should be known many Chinese and even Mongolian researchers today believe Huns are the ancestors of Hungarians (Magyars). I just bought several books on my trip to China on the subject (written not long ago), and while there are no English translations yet available, I could provide the names and backgrounds of said authors for anyone who is interested. One of the books even has two chapters in it titled "Not the ancestors of Turks" and "Not the ancestors of Mongols" -- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 13:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
What is this? Are there some other sources for it? As I see the publication appeared in 1995, did it gain some acceptation since then? Dzsoker ( talk) 17:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC) There are series of inscriptions in east Gothic or early Turkic on silver plates in runic script found near Kazan that mention Diggiz Qaghan, that appear to be in reference to Dengizich. The plates are real, and there are other artifacts as well that are clearly Hunnic associated with them from a period around when he would have died and later. Do not extrapolate too much from it but the artifacts are there, and some have inscriptions in a runic style alphabet. It would be great if we could get access to them and pictures of them from the Kazan museum or ministry of culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.197.7 ( talk) 09:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
If some Turkic adopted few words from Huns who preceded them it does not change the obvious fact Hunnic language is Ugric . Why should ansectors of Hungarians talk on different language? Edelward ( talk) 14:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
This what says in this article
Mugel[1] (or Muageris) was the successor of Grod (or Grodas), a Hunnic ruler, from the neighborhood of the city of Bosporus [Boon Phoros: "cattle tax"] in Patria Onoguria. His reign lasted only 2 years, from AD 528 to 530. After him, the dominion of Patria Onoguria over northern Oghuric tribes, from the southern Russian steppes to the western Ukraine, diminished and were aggregated by the Pseudo-Avars before restoration under Gokturk rule.
Not so long ago, historical research concluded the term magyar[2] derived from the name of (prince) Muageris, by arguing that "Muageris" had to be a personal name taken from the descriptive designation of a people. Edelward ( talk) 15:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
"reverted to Eurasian steppe - identification of Huns with Xiongnu is uncertain and even if true does not imply that they spoke the same language"
The article says that the Hunnic language is considered to belong to the "Oghur" branch of Turkic languages. It seems there is no problem making this statement without any evidence to support it. Perhaps I am missing something about how some theories are accepted without any evidence, yet other theories with evidence are omitted. -- Xiaogoudelaohu ( talk) 23:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
hunnic confederation consist of utrigur and kutrigur tribes. ogur turkic r sound transforms to z sound in modern turkic. so oghur people are oghuz people. and kutrigur means kotuz (nine) oghuz, utrigur means utuz (thirty) oghuz. oghuz or oghur words came from turkic ok (arrow). in turkic tribal confederations each clan represented with an arrow. like onok (ten arrows), onogur, tokuz oghuz tribal unions. so there is some evidence that suggest hunnic tribes contained at least large proportion of turkic stock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.66.126 ( talk) 22:59, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
The addition needs work. Here's what is at issue:
If we do not handle these issues, this article looks POV-ish. We need to decide if this article is going to focus only on the European Huns or try to bridge both. Quite a bit of information about the Xiongnu language is contained within the Xiongnu article. It could possibly be moved here if we decide to keep the wider scope. -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 18:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
There are a number of issues raised in the discussion:
Does anyone watching this article have a source that includes our meager corpus of likely Hunnic words / names? I think they would make a nice addition to the article. At the same time, what about that Diggiz plate? Is there any further info to be had on it? Trigaranus ( talk) 16:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
"For the subjects of the Huns, swept together from various lands, speak, besides their own barbarous tongues, either Hunnic or Gothic, or--as many as have commercial dealings with the western Romans--Latin"
The above quote mentions that Hunnic, Gothic and Latin were spoken, not that the lingua franca was Gothic. A better source should be found to support such claims.
It is likely as the Goths were a big part of the Hunnic empire but that is besides the point as the source being used makes no mention of which language is the lingua franca, Hun, Latin or Gothic. If anything it mentions Hunnic, Gothic and Latin being equally spoken as well as the native languages of the various groups that made up the confederation. Sigurd Dragon Slayer ( talk) 12:47, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Turkish name Onur is not related to Hunor. It is a French word "honneur". -- 78.183.235.226 ( talk) 10:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Gothic is mentioned as being spoken as a second language by (some) subjects of the Huns. I have rephrased the comment more cautiously. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:02, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Gothic and Latin are also discussed as a languages along with Hunnic used by subjects specifically in the context of commercial dealings. It makes sense, you have the Goths in the court, multiethnic slaves from the pontic and other regions, and a large group of languages in the horde. It is a familiar pattern from the Eurasian steppe as per Mallory and Anthony and voluminous work in Chinese, Russian and western sources on this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.197.7 ( talk) 09:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I have removed a comment based on an 1882 reference, diff is http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hunnic_language&action=historysubmit&diff=473492610&oldid=473414260. For several reasons I suggest that it should stay removed.
In full it was: "However, there is a controversial and maybe not correct opinion regarding the word kamos, according to Hermann Vámbéry it would resemble the Turkic kimiz, a drink made of milk. The incorrectness of this opinion is given by the fact that the Hunnic kamos is made of barley and not milk. Still, a linguistic affinity with Turkic is existent.<ref>[http://books.google.de/books?ei=xtUhT-XgJY22hAeevK3fBA&id=570FAAAAQAAJ&dq=Der+Ursprung+der+Magyaren%3A+Eine+ethnologische+Studie Ármin Vámbéry, Der Ursprung der Magyaren: Eine ethnologische Studie, F.A. Brockhaus, 1882, p.28]</ref>"
This strikes me as internally inconsistent (first it says that the words could be related and then that they clearly aren't), and it seems to be an inappropriate use of a comment from 1882, admittedly by someone far better at the relevant languages than I will ever be. We should be documenting current scholarly consensus, and live arguments if there are any, using current sources. Even in this field, 1882 is not current scholarship. A minor issue is that I cannot find the text "kamos" or "kimiz" in the Google Book reference given. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised that Hunnic is classified as specifically Oghuric/Lir-Turkic by all the sources. As argued by O. Maenchen-Helfen here (in my view convincingly), the proper name Dengizich reflects *däŋiziq (or *deŋiziq; I'm not sure what the first vowel originally was) "little lake". However, *däŋiz (or *deŋiz), from Proto-Turkic *täŋiz (or *teŋiz, as in Old Turkic of the Orkhon inscriptions) is incompatible with Oghuric: one should expect *täŋir (or *teŋir, compare the loanword Hungarian tenger from Oghuric) instead. The (Common Turkic) z points to a non-Oghuric branch, and (provided that the spellings of the ancient sources really reflect a Turkic d) the initial d even seems to point specifically to the Oghuzic branch (compare Modern Anatolian Turkish deniz, where the old *ŋ has merged with n), although the same development of initial t is apparently found in non-Oghuzic languages ( Tuvan and Fuyü Gïrgïs) as well and thus may not be truly diagnostic.
(Note that this conclusion is strictly based on reasoning out of the available evidence; I was surprised by it myself, and I would be very interested to see the evidence cited by the sources for their differing classification; I am neutral politically and, lacking any personal connections with Turkey, have no horse in this game and am certainly not attempting to "prove that the Huns were the ancestors of the Turks (of Turkey)" or some such nonsense, just pointing something out.) -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 20:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
We have recently had the following removed on the grounds that it's a "bad source":
the inscription on the Khan Diggiz plate has been interpreted as giving the name of a known Western Hunnic king, Dengizich, son of Attila, in a form of Turkic.<ref>Azgar Mukhamadiev. "The Khan Diggiz Dish Inscription". Excerpts from the article "Turanian Writing", in: ''Problems Of Linguoethnohistory Of The Tatar People'', Kazan, 1995, pages 36–83 [http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/32WritingHuns/Diggiz3En.htm]</ref><ref>Muhamadiev A. ''"Ancient coins of Kazan"'', Kazan, 2005, pp. 37–41, ISBN 5-298-04057-8</ref>
It may be less than ideal, but it strikes me as reliable within Wikipedia's definition and at least slightly interesting in the context of this article. Should we perhaps have it back? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 16:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, it's an issue of how much weight we give to that view. This article does need to go over the various hypotheses to justify its existence. The lead is adequately summarizing the (lack of) academic consensus. It's a bit odd that the Dikkiz plate is not discussed by anyone else (besides Mukhamadiev). When was it discovered? Tijfo098 ( talk) 05:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC) There are a number of artifacts in the museum collections of Kazan that need to be independently verified for accuracy and it would be nice if you could get pictures of them to request to see the inscriptions I am sure it would help clear things up considerably. Some of the objects found in that collection are undeniable Hunnic cauldrons and ever early east gothic or what might be Hunnic inscriptions being interpreted as a Turkic language. It would be nice if someone here could ask the Kazan museum for photographs of the Hunnic objects in their archaeological collections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.197.7 ( talk) 09:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Dear Richard Keatinge, I do not understand your deletion of the referenced facts associated with the Hunnic language. If you have problems with any cited fact, we can discuss it further, but a wholesale deletion of the citation appears to be unjustified, rather the intent is to curtail the studies pertaining to the Huns and their language. You retained Pritsak's reference, for example, although Pritsak's study is miniscule in scope and the sources used, and was limited to the onomasticon, which is recognized to be only a supplementary material, to corroborate observations drawn from the other sources - historical, ethnological, archeological, etc. Please reconsider your deletion of the cited reference, or find reasons to refute any of the cited material. I will be more than glad to supply you with any additional pertaining material. Barefact ( talk) 22:36, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
"The literary records for Hunnish consist only of a few names and three non-Turkic words..."
Grant | Talk 12:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Second, current nationalist feelings are strong; some people are very keen to claim Huns as their ancestors and linguistic kin.
Third, the records of (European) Hunnic really are scanty and the only three recorded words have been identified as probably Slavic or something similar. The European Huns had swept up a wide variety of tribes (Germanic-speaking Goths and Iranian-speaking Alans are attested in large numbers) and even if their leading clans had originally spoken something pre-Turkic when they left the borders of China, they might well have shifted language by the time they reached the Danube centuries later. Or they might be speaking a changed version of their original language, heavily mixed with other language families.
That said, we may need some brief mention of the Yeniseian idea. Do you feel inclined to do a bold edit? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
User:Akocsg is continuing his POV editing by adding Turkic to the infobox, when clearly there are six different theories presented and referenced. Is Akocsg going to add the other theories to the infobox? -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 00:17, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
MY SOURCES ARE RELIABLE. They all cite proper books written my university professors. Please stop removing my edits. What is better. Teaching everyone only 3 words, medos, kamos and strava, or teaching everyone c.30 words like I added, plus how to conjugate verbs in the present tense, plus a few verbs plus how to say, Ito be able to + infitive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAddict2000 ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Because it is causing a Checkwiki error #70: "ISBN with wrong length", I removed the ISBN from the entry:
Mukhamadiev, Azgar G. 1995. "The inscription on the plate of Khan Diggiz." In: In: Problems of the lingo-ethno-history of the Tatar people. Kazan: Tatarskoe knizhnoe izd-vo, pp. 36–83. (ISBN 5-201-08300, in Russian). Translated from the Russian into English, www.turkicworld.org.[6]
I have tried unsuccessfully to locate the correct ISBN or WorldCat id on the Internet. Knife-in-the-drawer ( talk) 02:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
First, you have to understand who were the (European) Huns. They were not Xiongnu, nor they were Turks. Huns were conglomeration of Yuezhi-Usun-Asi tribes. Usuns were tochars who were turkisized as early as 4 BC and they spoke a form of Turkic language, Yuezhi are more controversial, probably they spoke a mixture of Tocharian - protoTurkic - protoMongolian. When these tribes move to Kazahstan, an Iranian substratum was added. In modern (Danube) Bulgarian language there are many tocharian words even today. Volga Bulgars probably originated from Usuns, they didn't practiced artificial cranial deformation, while Danube Bulgars have their origin in Yuezhi and their language was less Turkisized. 93.152.143.113 ( talk) 02:28, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm too tired to search for sources, but someone could add the information that nobody knows Attila's Hunnic name. Attila is Gothic and means "little father". Sorte Slyngel ( talk) 01:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
I found a source and edited this article, and the source tells me Hunnic is a Uralic language.
Here is the source: (In Hungarian): http://filozofia.wplanet.hu/tag_va.html HorseSnack ( talk) 14:31, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Hunnic language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:53, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
3oun= jyt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB90:67A:7E8F:6CEE:786A:E1B8:7E85 ( talk) 02:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
The article claims that the Huns called their language Hunlir tel. But since we know only 36 words that are attributed to this language (33 of which are proper names), this seems to have no backing. So, does any person have a citation for this claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.116.59 ( talk) 17:14, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Jingiby:, you recently added a link to Altaic languages into the lead of this article. The lead of the article Altaic languages, however, says that this theory is "now widely seen as discredited". I'm wondering whether it's appropriate to link to it then. I actually removed a similar link from the article Huns just yesterday for the same reason.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 13:05, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
Can anyone find any reliable sources claiming that the Huns spoke Uralic? If not, I think the section ought to be removed.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (
link)
Can anyone verify that "Mukhamediev, Azgar (1995). Zăkiev, M. Z., ed. Problemy lingvoėtnoistorii tatarskogo naroda. Kazan. p. 195." is a reliable source? If not, the information provided from this source (which seems suspicious) should be removed from the article.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 18:36, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Hungarian Turcologist Gyula Németh makes the following statement on the language of the Huns of Europe in his article titled What Language Speaked by Huns in 1939: Based on all these, we can say that the ruling clan of the European Huns and of course the Hun people also spoke the Turkish language, more precisely, they were Turkic as a people. [19 ] Lajos Ligeti also makes the following determinations about the language of the European Huns in the article Attila and the Historical Origins of the Huns: ... the conclusion that can be drawn from the existing ones, we are confronted with a Turkic-speaking people in both regions. [19] Péter Váczy supports Latin writers in Anthropology in his article Huns in Europe; Huns were Turks. But what was Turkish was not only their external appearance, but their language was also Turkish. makes the definition. [19]
Some historians such as Karl Heinrich Menges and Omeljan Pritsak have stated that the possible origins of the language are close to Mongolian or Turkic languages, based on special names in Hunca and for ethnological reasons. [20] It was argued by Menges that this language might have been a combination of the Mongolian and Turkic languages. [20] Pritsak 33 Hunca analyzed the proper name and claimed that the language was not Turkic, but could be a language found between Turkic languages and Mongolian, closer to Turkic languages such as Pre-Bulgarian and Yakut. [21]
Otto Maenchen-Helfen has argued that many Hunca proper names may have Turkic origin. [22] Denis Sinor and Hyun Jin Kim also reached the same conclusion, although they stated that it is very difficult to classify the language due to the lack of resources, and claimed that at least part of the ruling segment is of Turkic origin. [6] [23] Although historian Peter Heather described Turkic origins as the best guess, in 1995 [24] declared that he was skeptical about these theories [16] and stated that in 2010 Hunca was never known. [17] Metehan Uygur7 ( talk) 09:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm sorry I didn't see it, but I'd appreciate it if you'd add what I wrote. Metehan Uygur7 ( talk) 23:37, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
In many topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Jingiby ( talk) 12:20, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Why mentioning Yeniseian but ignoring Iranian. That is in no way NPOV. But POV. Sorry, but what is your problem? Orange172212 ( talk) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC) @ Ermenrich: your thoughts, you seem to be the most reliable user here, unlike some other feelings motivated editors, which do not even care to read the respective sources. Pinging also @ TaivoLinguist: recently involved in the discussion in Hunno-Bulgar languages. Orange172212 ( talk) 12:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)Alternative hypotheses include their identification with the speakers of Eastern Iranian (Bailey, 1985: 25) or groups of “Paleo-Asiatic”, namely Yeniseian, origin (Vovin, 2000, 2002; Vovin et al., 2016, an idea going back to Ligeti, 1950, and Pulleyblank, 1962).
The Hunnic titles are common titles of the nomadic steppe world. Most of them are attested in Turkic, but their ultimate origins may lie outside the Turkic family, as is most likely the case for the title of khagan (χαγάνος, chaganus) < ? Middle Iranian *hva-kama- ‘self-ruler, emperor’ (Dybo, Reference Dybo2007: 119–120)... Following Benveniste (Reference Benveniste1966), Dybo (Reference Dybo2007: 106–107) considers Turkic *χatun ‘king's wife’ a word of ultimate Eastern Iranian origin, borrowed presumably from Early Saka *hvatuñ, cf. the attested Soghdian words xwt'w ‘ruler’ (< *hva-tāvya-) and xwt'yn ‘wife of the ruler’ (< *hva-tāvyani). For a possible Eastern Iranian etymology of another title, khagan, see Section 2.2.
The few common nouns that were recorded as part of the European Hunnic vocabulary are all of local origin, and the personal names of the Huns include items that are connected to the Indo-European languages of Europe (Germanic and Ossetic, in particular). This implies a crucial role of Western Eurasian components in the formation of the Huns. The titles of the Huns are broadly related to the steppe nomadic world, but no specific connection with the early Turkic speakers of eastern steppe (respectively the Xiongnu as their historical and archaeological counterpart) can be firmly established on this basis. The ambiguity of possible interpretations is as much the case for the Hunnic personal names for which a Turkic origin was previously proposed. To sum up, while historical and archaeological evidence may imply the inclusion of some steppe component among the Huns, the very limited linguistic and genetic data do not provide support for linking this component with the eastern part of the Eurasian steppe, or the Xiongnu specifically.
Recent research has revealed that in chapter 96 of the Book of Han (Han-shu), entitled "Western Regions", the Xiong-nu gave the title "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" to a ruler of the Lesser Wu-sun Kun-mo, a descendant of a Xiong-nu princess, who was killed in 30 BC as a result of a throne dispute. In chapter 50 of the Tongdian, Chinese sources clearly define the meaning of "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" as "wolf". With this military-political title, the Wu-sun were declared the protector of the western region of the Xiong-nu territories. For the same reason, this title was given to the ruler of the western wing of the state in the Gokturks, Seljuks, Khwarazmians, Mongols and Anatolian Turkish beyliks. In addition, the word "böri" is a word used in all Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Korean, Japanese, Manchu- Tungus with the meaning of "wolf". These results may have revealed a connection with Altaic languages, especially Turkic languages.
@Kansas Bear @Ermenrich Why is not this text about Hunnic language? -- Philosophia091 ( talk) 19:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
These results may have revealed a connection with Altaic languages, especially Turkic languages.) is not obvious given the preceding content of the paragraph. You may need to draw those connections more clearly, and you will definitely need to cite a reliable source that has drawn those connections. ( This is not just your own conclusion, is it?) WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 20:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Mnkhprre: - why are you adding this here? There's nothing to suggest that a Runic inscription from Syria has anything to do with the language spoken by Attila's Huns. This is probably WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, not to mention WP:FRINGE.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)