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1. This is not a fan page. Everything in a Wikipedia article must meet the standard of notability, which basically means have proven real-world significance (mentions in reputable newspapers and similarly fact-checked sources, usually). These are not always, or even often, going to be the things a fandom considers important. |
2. As per the table headers, only recurring roles—that is, roles that the same actor appears in over more than one episode—are listed for both starring and supporting cast. This was decided upon by consensus of the editors most familiar with the article, and reaffirmed by experienced editors on review. Essentially, it's the most objective way to determine which roles are important enough to be listed. As per above, "fan favourite" isn't an acceptable criteria (and "my favourite" is even less so). Otherwise... well, there were literally hundreds of roles over the course of five series, many of which were un-named. There's simply no way to note them all without the article being completely overwhelmed by irrelevant detail. |
3. To avoid creating similar chaos, the cast lists are also organized according to a purely objective ranking of importance. Starring cast are defined as per the show's own credits and then listed alphabetically; supporting cast with speaking roles are ranked below them, first by number of recurring roles, then by length of service. If you are still passionately convinced that [insert your favourite supporting player here] is being unfairly kept down and/or deserves extra-special notice, please consider editing/creating their own article, which can then be linked from this one. |
4. This is a Featured Article, meaning many experienced editors have reviewed it and determined that the version you're reading is among the very best of Wikipedia's several million articles. Therefore, any changes/additions are going to be reviewed that much more carefully—but that's not to say they can't be made. The talkpage below is a forum to which you are not only invited but encouraged, absolutely, to dispute edits, raise questions and just generally make the case for anything you like. All we ask is that you first take a look through the previous discussions to see if your question etc. has already been raised. |
5. Yes, they've made a new series. No, it's not exactly series 6 of this one. In fact, the differences between this series and the new one are significant enough that the latter now has its own article, at Horrible Histories (2015 TV series). Interested editors are cheerfully invited to add any and all info there. |
I've been keeping an eye on this article off-and-on for the last year or so, as a fan of the series and as an editor/creator of some related articles (those for the cast and Yonderland, for instance). At this point I'm confident that I'm experienced enough to at least significantly help to fix the major problems, as listed in the warning template at the top -- especially as I've been reading the talk-page discussion above, also reviewing the recent edit history, and find they also agree with my own assessment of what the issues are and what needs to be done to fix them.
As far as I can tell there's been no further discussion of what to do with the article within the last six months or so. Thus I'd like to propose that, as soon as I can get to it (probably in the next few days), I'll begin an extensive rewrite, subject of course to the longer-term editors' consensus at all times. It's a brilliant show, almost certainly destined to become a classic of children's TV, and it deserves the best Wiki article possible. Shoebox2 ( talk) 13:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
could that include a rewrite of the DVD section to include up-to-date information on the DVD releases, including boxsets? Visokor ( talk) 13:58, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Right, out-denting for new question: how much detail is too much? Specifically, is it strictly necessary to list every single parody inspiration the show ever had (as per 1st paragraph under "Sketches") or every single character the main cast ever played? Asking because it's technically encyclopedic information (and clearly represents a lot of painstaking work) but in practice reads as just meaninglessly huge walls of text that're easier to skip then get anything useful from. I'm thinking reducing both to several major hilights (I've got a pretty good idea of what those are to start) would be a lot more meaningful. Shoebox2 talk 00:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Meanwhile -- on the subject of massive chunks of detailed text -- agreed that there's way too much emphasis on the Q&A & Masterclass conference, and will be cutting a lot of it (might leave it in as sourcing for a few technical/production points not easily found elsewhere). Besides the general problem with primary sourcing I don't like relying so heavily on just one or two POVs, even if one of them is the series producer. Also planning to summarise critical reaction under one heading and generally introduce a much more linear history of the show's production. Shoebox2 talk 00:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
[Out-denting for final announcement] OK, after carefully taking into account everyone's feedback and input, I think what I have here is a draft ready to be pasted into mainspace -- after a few final cosmetic tweaks anyway -- as of tomorrow (Sunday) evening. I'm still hoping to eventually pursue Good Article status, but my main concern for now is to see the article repaired, and I'm satisfied that that's been accomplished.
With that in mind... I have read
WP:OWN, and believe I understand it fully... but may need to ask for a teeny bit of patience, regardless. :) Also, to request, please and thanks, that going forward any substantial changes or additions be at least run past the talkpage here prior to posting. I don't by any means claim that my version is the ideal one, or beyond improvement; but I have spent a solid week rescuing an article on a subject I feel strongly about, taken care to have it vetted by interested and experienced editors, and will continue to fight workEditing because damnit, I'm doing it already... as necessary for its improvement. Many thanks again for everyone's goodwill,
Shoebox2
talk 04:40, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
See notes above re: my upcoming struggle with WP:OWN, also the many thanks for the help and support. :)
Below, noting a couple outstanding issues that came up during the rewrite process:
1) Images -- The ones in the article now (save for the title card at the top) were sourced and placed by User:Coin945. I'm not sure they're 100% suitable, but admit to finding the whole question of Wiki-images a bit daunting, so would welcome any further input. (Update: OK, have now received further input, from the editors at WP:NFCR, and in substantial agreement with their assessment, and on previous assurances from Coin945, have removed most of the current images... so we're back to square one. Honestly, I'm not sure if any other images at this point are going to enhance the article -- as was mentioned in the image review discussion, pics of people in historical costume aren't exactly going to act as a huge insight in an article about an historical sketch show.)
2) Sourcing -- The previous version of the article had all of 111 sources, and that with heavy reliance on maybe five-ten. I've reduced it to 70-odd. Again, I'll absolutely admit this is by no means my area of expertise and welcome input (especially as regards the need to source awards/nominations), but am also pretty sure that that number doesn't need to dramatically go up again, nor that the wholly uncontroversial material in the Format section especially needs extra citations.
3) Level of detail -- By my best estimate I've removed 30,000+ words from the article, most of which was fancruft-y stuff that -- by consensus, as far as I can tell from the previous talkpage conversations above -- was actually heavily obscuring the readers' getting a decent handle on what the show is all about. What's left is based on and sourced in what's either obviously important to same, standard to Wiki TV articles as far as I can tell, or what reliable media commentaries have considered important. It's also been vetted by interested and experienced Wiki-editors. Please, going forward can we ensure that any further information meets at least one and preferably more of this criteria before it's added?
Cheers, Shoebox2 talk 13:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
It should be noted that most if not all of these were previously suggested during my recent rewrite. I've made notes below as to why I didn't use each one. Shoebox2 talk 16:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Several quotes, links and comments
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Look, Coin, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, but trying to catalogue every single random online mention of the show isn't helping anything. We already have a lengthy and legitimate reception/criticism section in the article. At this point any additions made to it are going to have to come from legitimate, notable commentators who have both authority on the subject and something interesting to say on it. Shoebox2 talk 16:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
The Terrible Treasures bit hangs off the end. I should know... I put it there in the first place when I wrote it. These should be more than enough for some sort of paragraph.section about all the interactive/web content and games provided by the TV show.-- Coin945 ( talk) 18:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Several quotes and links
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I've commenced merging/rewriting, having given it a week as promised and no objections as yet (or response at all other than Coin's, actually). Results (for Series One half-way through Two) can now be found in my sandbox. Summary of the proposed changes can be found on the episode article's talkpage. Feedback welcome either here or there. Thanks, Shoebox2 talk 04:33, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and submitted the Good Article nomination. Now that the rewrite's completed and everyone interested has had a chance to tweak and improve, I'm genuinely curious how close we all are to being rewarded for the hard work. :) Shoebox2 talk 19:54, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Congrats on getting it prep'd Span ( talk) 01:45, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Christine ( talk · contribs) 06:05, 25 January 2014 (UTC) Hi, I'm reviewing this article. Please note that this review is being used for the GA Recruitment Centre [4], so there will be more explanations included. It's my practice to first fill out the template, and then include a more thorough prose and source review. I look forward to this review, since my niche on WP is American (and one Aussie) children's TV shows. It should be fun learning about UK kiddie's TV. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 06:05, 25 January 2014 (UTC) 699 0180 GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Interesting and fun article, very close to GA. There are a few issues that are easily addressed.
Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 00:35, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I tend to be somewhat thorough in my prose reviews, but I promise that the end result is a stronger article. I review articles with the perspective of someday going through the FAC process (which this article has the potential for), so I try to prepare the nominator for it. Consequently, some of my comments and suggestions apply to the FA criteria, but again, the goal is a higher quality article. I go through each section, like they do in FAC. Please feel free to disagree; if you give me a good and logical reason not to follow my suggestions, I usually accept it. I look at the lead last, since I like to be more familiar with the article before I judge if it summarises the article. Let's begin.
I think that you should seriously consider changing the structure of this article. According to MOS:TV, "The structure of television articles, season/series articles, and episode articles are all relatively identical. The sections below will map out the basic structure for these articles. The basic order of these pages tends to follow: Lead, episode plot, production, and critical reception; with any other miscellaneous sections coming afterward. This is because Wikipedia uses plot information as context for understanding the real world information in the article" Children's TV shows require a different structure, of course; instead of a plot section, we need to include "Format". (It's my educated opinion that for these kinds of shows, format is king.) In the kids' TV show articles I've written (i.e., Sesame Street and Blue's Clues, both of which are FAs), I've placed the "Format" section after the "History" section, which you call "Background", since I don't think that you need to have an understanding of the shows' format to understand the show's context; rather, I think that an understanding of the genesis and development of the show is necessary to understand everything that follows, including the format.
This is the structure I advise for this article: I'd put your "Background" section first. Then I'd put your "Format" section second. For the SS and BC articles, and on the advice of other editors, I included an "Educational goals" section after because including a discussion about curriculum and the producers' goals seemed to fit best here. Your "Content" section seems to discuss the producers' goals; I'll leave it up to you to rename it. Then I'd move the "Production details" below "Content". Actually, the section you've named "Production details" reads more like "Production history"; I suggest you move it further down in the article in the the MOS refers to as a miscellaneous section. "Process" seems like it would go in "Production details", with "Music" and "Cast" as subsections, although I think that your "Cast" section is fine as a stand-alone section. The order of the rest of the sections look fine.
At this point, I'd go through the sections, but I think that I'll stop for now, to give you time to re-structure, if you wish, since if you re-structure, you may need to move some of the content around. Remember that these are just suggestions. I make them because I'm not sure that FAC reviewers would find the current structure of this article acceptable, since it doesn't follow the MOS. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Again, my apologies that this has taken so long. Now I'll start on the thorough prose review, in which I'll go through each section and make suggestions. Thanks for following my suggestions about structure; I agree that it looks much stronger now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 22:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Background
Agreed, both good (in fact, rather embarrassingly obvious in hindsight) ideas. Done.
I've rearranged and slightly reworded these sentences along the lines suggested.
I've never been particularly happy with this sentence myself. It's an attempt to concisely summarise the idea that producers wanted to ensure the show would be recognizable as and respectful of the already familiar, best-beloved concept. ('Determined', meanwhile, isn't so much a Briticism as a symptom of my fondness for obscure word usages. Will try and keep that to a minimum going forward.) Think I've now come up with a clearer variant with your help.
Used this nearly verbatim. Much nicer phrasing.
Another sentence I've been wondering uneasily about for some time. Happily revamped along the lines suggested.
Yeah, I had a feeling after reading WP:MOS that my sentence length was going to get me into trouble. :) Will go through the rest of the article and attempt to mitigate similiar issues. Meantime, have split this sentence into its component clauses (the approval of the adult-focused creative team and the 'grossology' are actually two different things; I agree that possibly wasn't clear enough, but do think it's important to keep them separate.)
Nnngggghhh... OK. I think the original version gets the point across more elegantly, but can also see your technical points. Decent compromise hopefully achieved. :)
Have separated this sentence into component clauses. I still think it's worth separately hilighting the two concepts -- the fact that the team specifically watched Life of Brian etc initially to set the tone, and then the ongoing influences.
That's all I have time for now, so I'll stop here and continue at a later time, probably tomorrow. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Looking forward to it. Meantime, as noted, I'll go through and see if I can head off any further problems along the lines mentioned. Thanks again, Shoebox2 talk 15:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC Format
Heh... you want exhaustive, you should've seen the original list it was cut down from. But yeah, a few more can be taken out. Have reduced the list to only those eras seen over all five series, and linked those last two as requested. ETA: Added a few important later ones back in, hopefully in a way that will still maintain readability. I feel like it's useful to help demonstrate the scope of the series' ambitions.
Reworded along the lines suggested above, with minor modifications; I think 'within living memory' is more to the point, and it wasn't really a 'focus', more a matter of a handful of sketches. ETA: Removed the first bit altogether. Deary eventually broke that rule himself, and it's always bugged me anyway that the claim wasn't sourced -- in fact there's no real evidence that the TV show producers were following that concept specifically.
Pretty much, yes. As noted in the article, the choice of time periods was overwhelmingly derived directly from the books, with a few unique ones added in the last two series. Which ones were used seems to have had no particular rhyme or reason beyond the natural 'we haven't tried this yet..." inherent a five-year run.
Beyond that, episodes were cut together by the producers, entirely on their whim, after the sketches were filmed en masse. Meaning any era was just as likely to show up next as any other, and no quota of appearances per episode or series was imposed. (If you look closely it's possible to discern creative commonalities in the content of some episodes, but it's not something any but the most devoted fan would pick up.) Basically, the show resembles a conventional British sketch-comedy much more than it does an 'educational' series. I've added what I hope is a bit of clarification to this effect in the article. ETA: Also renamed the 'Educational Goals' section to more accurately indicate what the show was trying to do. 'Goals' implies a level of deliberate structure and care that this show just doesn't have.
All sketches within a given era tended to be featured together. But otherwise, again, there was no set structure; Tudor segments might be followed by Ancient Egypt which in turn would be followed by the Stone Age and then the Victorians.
As the later 'Educational Goals' section also hopefully makes clear, any actual teaching was done on an informal and decidedly unprofessional basis. There was no vetting to determine optimal audience impact, in the Sesame Street vein; British children's edutainment just doesn't work that way, or at least has distinctly different priorities re: what's considered optimal. As it was once explained to me, the British emphasis is on avoiding modelling dangerous/destructive behaviours that could plausibly be imitated (and/or would advance understanding unacceptably, ie. swearing or sexual activity) otherwise it's largely assumed that the kiddies will either be OK with it or won't get it anyway.
Bear in mind that Doctor Who, for all its intense and often dark sci-fi/fantasy themes, is still considered 'family entertainment' in UK terms. HH, meanwhile, in only the third episode happily explained the Vikings' concept of heaven and Hell to seven-year-olds, complete with cute (and frankly hilarious) little Up/Down infographics... then followed that up with a sketch featuring Nero using Christians as 'Roman candles' (although in that case they did spare audiences the visuals).
'Specific' switched out for 'recognizable', which was the intended concept. 'Programming' refers to TV, now that I come to think of it. Edited a bit to make all that clearer.
Fixed ref to Eccleston, that was a problem caused by the restructuring. I'm going to argue that 'deeply' and 'unabashedly' help enhance understanding of the subject. Removed the rest without qualm, tho.
Erm... off the top of my head, basically, as bolstered by, if I may say so, my unusually detailed knowledge of the show (having previously undertaken an episode-by-episode review of same, like so: http://hhreviews.wordpress.com/. No I don't have a life, thanks for asking.)
Again, the list here has already been reduced considerably from a massive, uber-fancrufty wall o'text that attempted to catalogue every single possible sketch inspiration. I've tried to refocus on only the legitimately notable recurring sketches (they're easy to pick out in context, as the most frequently-seen and/or elaborate) and mention only those parody inspirations that are really, really obvious. I can see myself removing a few entries if the list is too long (or changing the descriptions if too informal), but all the details in this section can be verified as important plot points by even a casual viewer of the show.
Music
The idea is that the music stood out as notable and popular to the extent that they devoted an entire prestigious public concert to it... however, on second thought, yes that is a bit obscure as written. I've clarified it while keeping the Prom info in-place; an attempt to move it to the Reception section just felt too weird, as if I were suddenly switching focus to an entire other production in the middle of this one.
Slight problem; I have added a ref for the song-per-episode and the format of same, but there is none for the missing song in S01E05 (in fact the ref in question refers to 'every episode' having a song). It's a bit hard to explain, but most media commentators came to the show around Series Two or later, after the music really started to become special. Frankly nobody but devout fans really care about the Series One songs save for 'Born 2 Rule'; they're otherwise so comparatively nondescript that a missing one just isn't worthy of note. Could we consider this a plot point, verifiable at the source? ETA: I do have a source indicating a missing song, but not where it's missing from: http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/16/horrible-histories-mourned-after-last-episode-airs-3885552/ . Otherwise, the episode itself is on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMXi5UAkm70
'These' are indeed the previously-mentioned songs, have clarified and moved the YouTube ref to a less confusing spot. Think the paragraphing works better as-is, tho.
I'm going to argue this one. 'Recognisable' helps make the point that the parody was deliberate, and understood as such. The plural on 'Georges' I think is OK, as it seems to be acceptable if not actually common UK usage, and in fact is used within the song in question ("We were born to rule over you/Georges I, III, IV and II...").
Not sure how broad a source you need here? I've provided a ref for the existence and name of these specials, in the form of an episode guide from the generally respectable British Comedy Guide, is this OK? Will keep looking for something more substantial.
Another sentence I was never happy with. :) Ended up rewriting the entire section pretty extensively in the wake of fixing the Prom ref, hopefully all is much clearer and more informative now.
Done.
Really glad you liked it. :) Have taken up your suggested phrasing in turn... would be very willing to include a note as well, how do I go about doing that?
Educational goals
From the context of the source the specific reference is to a formal teaching lesson plan, such as would be applied by government authority to UK grade-school settings. Asked if the show is consciously following 'the school curriculum', the interviewee (Jenner) essentially laughs and says no, they're just out for the funny. I frankly have no idea how to summarize this concisely and was hoping the info at the 'curriculum' article would do the job for me. ETA: Have now attempted a rewrite myself along the lines suggested.
So you're not going to let me off the hook on this one, eh? *pauses hopefully, while making doe eyes* ... Fine. :) Will need to go back and review a few things, but that should be doable. ETA: Reviewed and done.
The sentence is actually complete, just maybe obscure phrasing-wise ('song' and 'sketch' are the nouns, 'champion' is the verb). Have reworded it a bit more conventionally.
Right, so I clearly have a problem. :) I can't help it, short sentences tend to feel stiff and boring to me. Your suggestion here, however, doesn't, and so has been happily adopted mostly as-is.
Sure, again, makes sense. High time I realised this isn't my blog. :)
Cast
Done.
Much better phrasing, adopted as-is.
They created both Yonderland and Bill explicitly so they could continue working together as a troupe. Have reworded that a bit for more clarity.
I'm almost done, but I'll stop here for now. I may have more time to finish the prose review, and start on the source review, day after tomorrow. Again, thanks for your patience with how slow this has been. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Reception
Agreed, removed.
Much better phrasing, used verbatim.
Yes, afraid so, except the couple of specials to air this year (combining a mix of old and new sketches). I don't mention specific reasons why in the article because there's never actually been a formal 'this is why we stopped' announcement -- just informal statements from producer Norris -- but the generally accepted gist seems to be that they'd just run out of facts they could make funny, and Norris at least was concerned about the quality potentially dropping off because of it. There was much lamenting across the UK when the end was announced and even more when it aired, believe me. As for an earlier mention, the lead does say right off the top that it ran for five series, with dates. Will that do? And, come to think of it, should I elaborate on those reasons why after all?
Spin-offs: You should have some prose in this section. I suggest that you include at least a few sentences about the shows.
Agreed, done.
Finished with prose review. Now, I'll move onto a source review. I've already seen some issues, which I'll address next. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Lead
Done.
Given that I've now added content to the 'Spinoffs' section, is the lead paragraph OK? I wouldn't be crushed to remove it, as it still has very little to do with the article, but was told that it's best practice to make mention of any associated programs in the lead.
I've added a sentence or two as per (my understanding of) suggested. Not sure how to go about further working the 'Reception' content in beyond what I've already said re: critical praise. From what I can tell from the WP:MOS the lead is already dangerously close to overlong -- can you advise? (Maybe this is where we sacrifice the spinoff info?)
Christine (Figureskatingfan) (
talk) 23:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
*phew* OK, all done. I wasn't able to find all the info for every ref but it's complete and consistent as I can make it.
Fixed.
Removed -- I left it in there thinking it would be nice to have an actual book as a ref, but on closer inspection it's really just the briefest of mentions, so.
Found the same press release being hosted by what seems like a much more respectable aggregation site. Is this OK? As you say, there're dozens of alternate cites for the bare statement itself, but I like having the extra info in the release.
Found a new YouTube version. Have cited it pointedly as a DVD extra clip, hopefully that helps the credibility a bit.
Huh, not sure who added that. As originally written, the statement was I figured already supported by the entire section immediately following. Is a cite needed beyond that? This one is just a recap of the same cited/quoted articles, so doesn't support the specific statement anyway.
Repaired.
Understood, will continue to improve the reliability as suggested.
Review is now complete. Again, thanks for your patience with how long it's taken. I've had fun and I hope that we've made a better article. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 01:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Ah, the ol' Gordian knot approach, works for me. :) Have reworked the header along the lines suggested.
Done.
Once you take care of these few issues, it's good to go and I will pass to GA. Nice work! Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi. Coin945 here. An on-again-off-again editor of this page. (Cleaned up much of the fancruft back in the day, but apparently added some of my own. Kudos to Shoebox for taking the reins off of me and turning my mediocre article into GA standard stuff. :D). My role no longer includes editing this page, but seeing viewing the sources I couldnt help noticing some things.-- Coin945 ( talk) 11:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Hmmmm. It still works just fine for me -- and I've tried it now in Chrome, Firefox and IE. Did you test it in a different browser? It's a very basic mp3 file, so should be playable under most standard PC/mobile circumstances. Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's one of the inconsistencies that as noted above I'm still in the process of fixing. Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
As far as I can tell from WP:CITE/ES, there doesn't seem to be a particularly favoured standard, but the one in use on this page seems to follow the guidelines pretty closely. At any rate, for the moment--as per the notes from an experienced GA/FA reviewer above--I'm just trying to ensure all cites are as complete as possible, which should be easy enough to build on in the event the article does move to FA review and encounters specifically concerned editors there. :) Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
From the edit history (including Coco's efforts) it appears there were originally individual sources for most if not all of the individual awards, before someone swopped them out wholesale for the LionTV link. I agree that although it's not apparently a GA requirement each award should ideally have its own cite, and if you can find the remaining ones, please do. ETA: Never mind, found them myself. In fact, three were already covered by an existing BAFTA reference. Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Came across these whole scouting Google books for a different article. Who knows.. Maybe they have some useful info. (There's a bit in one about the Stephen fry version - sown thing that I know was a topic for debate during the ga review).-- Coin945 ( talk) 03:40, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
...and I'm thinking it would be helpful to get consensus on what to do about it now, prior to airing, to prevent this article being unnecessarily disfigured all over again.
Invited to the discussion: ( Cocolacoste— Figureskatingfan— Coin945— Spanglej)
Essentially: Lion TV and the CBBC have contrived to relaunch live-action sketch-based Horrible Histories, but in most important respects an all-new version--as it would have to be, given the original five series wrapped up with a very deliberate grand finale. Hence the 'sixth series' will in fact involve an entirely different format as enacted by a largely all-new production team and starring cast. On the other hand, it's clearly set within the same universe; several of the writers will be returning, a few castmembers will be making re-appearances as familiar characters (notably Farnaby as Death) and the song parodies will still be a feature.
All of this, needless to say, is inevitably going to be a nightmare to try and shoehorn into this already teetering-on-the-verge-of-overlong article. Frankly, while I still have great affection for the show, I don't want to spend the rest of my writing life sorting through cast list chaos. So what I'd really like to do, and personally think there's easily enough justification for, is to give the revived HH similar treatment to Horrible Histories with Stephen Fry: a brief overview in this article with a link to a more detailed standalone page--perhaps called, in line with this one, Horrible Histories (2015 TV series). I'd be pleased to set up the skeleton of same--infobox etc.--and let any and all freshly-enthused editors have at it from there.
Thing is, as usual, I'm not sure of Wikiprecedent for this sort of thing, and glancing through the article on revived TV series didn't make it quite as clear-cut as I hoped it would. So I'm open to any and all advice and guidance... Thanks, Shoebox2 talk 01:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
...with, again, my profuse apologies for the delay. :) It's at Horrible Histories (2015 TV series), as discussed. I've included all relevant points as I understand them; interested editors are, of course, welcome to build on that foundation, and a note to that effect will be added to the FAQ above. Thanks, Shoebox2 talk 21:07, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I think they are doing series 6 with new cast. -- 137.44.126.255 ( talk) 23:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's on the BBC Media page - and it's been filmed; mix of new and old cast. 80.189.41.134 ( talk) 10:39, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
With a sixth series on the way, with an almost entirely new regular cast, just thinking that trying to fit all the different performers into one section of an article could get increasingly confusing. Particularly confusing is the different categories of actors such as; "starring" actors (i.e. Martha Howe Douglas, Matt Baynton etc.), "regular" supporting cast (Lawry Lewin, Dominique Moore etc), "minor" supporting cast (Javone Prince, Lisa Devlin etc), recurring guest stars (David Baddiel, Meera Syal, League of Gents. etc) and one off guest stars (Alexei Sayle, Chris Addison etc.). To add to the chaos the new series completely revamps the original starring lineup (Baynton, Farnabay, Howe-Douglas, Howick, Rickard & Willbond) with only Farnabay and Howick returning. As well as these two the new lineup now also features Naz Osmanoglu, Adam Riches and Tom Stourtan. To make matters even more confusing, supporting actors from previous series, Jalaal Hartley and Jessica Ransom, are now promoted to starring performers, somewhat reverse of Sarah Hadland's case. Additionally Lawry Lewin, from series 2 to 5 returns as a supporting performer. Bearing all of this in mind, i was think weather it would be a good idea to give the cast members an article of their own, i.e. List of Horrible Histories cast members. This make it far easier to break down the categories of performers. The show had definitely run for long enough and received more than enough popularity for a stand alone cast article. If you think this is a good idea i'll get started as soon as possible, but might need a little help as i am not an experienced user :) User:Xpion ( talk • contribs) 13:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
One episode features a sketch of "The Black Spot" by pirates to mark a man for death. However, the black spot is an entirely fictional literary device invented by the author of Treasure Island. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.73.136 ( talk) 00:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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"Jenner" is referenced 4 times in the article without a first mention or credit as historical consultant. I don't know enough about the history to edit, but it's a huge omission. Greg Jenner Illtud ( talk) 08:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
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1. This is not a fan page. Everything in a Wikipedia article must meet the standard of notability, which basically means have proven real-world significance (mentions in reputable newspapers and similarly fact-checked sources, usually). These are not always, or even often, going to be the things a fandom considers important. |
2. As per the table headers, only recurring roles—that is, roles that the same actor appears in over more than one episode—are listed for both starring and supporting cast. This was decided upon by consensus of the editors most familiar with the article, and reaffirmed by experienced editors on review. Essentially, it's the most objective way to determine which roles are important enough to be listed. As per above, "fan favourite" isn't an acceptable criteria (and "my favourite" is even less so). Otherwise... well, there were literally hundreds of roles over the course of five series, many of which were un-named. There's simply no way to note them all without the article being completely overwhelmed by irrelevant detail. |
3. To avoid creating similar chaos, the cast lists are also organized according to a purely objective ranking of importance. Starring cast are defined as per the show's own credits and then listed alphabetically; supporting cast with speaking roles are ranked below them, first by number of recurring roles, then by length of service. If you are still passionately convinced that [insert your favourite supporting player here] is being unfairly kept down and/or deserves extra-special notice, please consider editing/creating their own article, which can then be linked from this one. |
4. This is a Featured Article, meaning many experienced editors have reviewed it and determined that the version you're reading is among the very best of Wikipedia's several million articles. Therefore, any changes/additions are going to be reviewed that much more carefully—but that's not to say they can't be made. The talkpage below is a forum to which you are not only invited but encouraged, absolutely, to dispute edits, raise questions and just generally make the case for anything you like. All we ask is that you first take a look through the previous discussions to see if your question etc. has already been raised. |
5. Yes, they've made a new series. No, it's not exactly series 6 of this one. In fact, the differences between this series and the new one are significant enough that the latter now has its own article, at Horrible Histories (2015 TV series). Interested editors are cheerfully invited to add any and all info there. |
I've been keeping an eye on this article off-and-on for the last year or so, as a fan of the series and as an editor/creator of some related articles (those for the cast and Yonderland, for instance). At this point I'm confident that I'm experienced enough to at least significantly help to fix the major problems, as listed in the warning template at the top -- especially as I've been reading the talk-page discussion above, also reviewing the recent edit history, and find they also agree with my own assessment of what the issues are and what needs to be done to fix them.
As far as I can tell there's been no further discussion of what to do with the article within the last six months or so. Thus I'd like to propose that, as soon as I can get to it (probably in the next few days), I'll begin an extensive rewrite, subject of course to the longer-term editors' consensus at all times. It's a brilliant show, almost certainly destined to become a classic of children's TV, and it deserves the best Wiki article possible. Shoebox2 ( talk) 13:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
could that include a rewrite of the DVD section to include up-to-date information on the DVD releases, including boxsets? Visokor ( talk) 13:58, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Right, out-denting for new question: how much detail is too much? Specifically, is it strictly necessary to list every single parody inspiration the show ever had (as per 1st paragraph under "Sketches") or every single character the main cast ever played? Asking because it's technically encyclopedic information (and clearly represents a lot of painstaking work) but in practice reads as just meaninglessly huge walls of text that're easier to skip then get anything useful from. I'm thinking reducing both to several major hilights (I've got a pretty good idea of what those are to start) would be a lot more meaningful. Shoebox2 talk 00:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Meanwhile -- on the subject of massive chunks of detailed text -- agreed that there's way too much emphasis on the Q&A & Masterclass conference, and will be cutting a lot of it (might leave it in as sourcing for a few technical/production points not easily found elsewhere). Besides the general problem with primary sourcing I don't like relying so heavily on just one or two POVs, even if one of them is the series producer. Also planning to summarise critical reaction under one heading and generally introduce a much more linear history of the show's production. Shoebox2 talk 00:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
[Out-denting for final announcement] OK, after carefully taking into account everyone's feedback and input, I think what I have here is a draft ready to be pasted into mainspace -- after a few final cosmetic tweaks anyway -- as of tomorrow (Sunday) evening. I'm still hoping to eventually pursue Good Article status, but my main concern for now is to see the article repaired, and I'm satisfied that that's been accomplished.
With that in mind... I have read
WP:OWN, and believe I understand it fully... but may need to ask for a teeny bit of patience, regardless. :) Also, to request, please and thanks, that going forward any substantial changes or additions be at least run past the talkpage here prior to posting. I don't by any means claim that my version is the ideal one, or beyond improvement; but I have spent a solid week rescuing an article on a subject I feel strongly about, taken care to have it vetted by interested and experienced editors, and will continue to fight workEditing because damnit, I'm doing it already... as necessary for its improvement. Many thanks again for everyone's goodwill,
Shoebox2
talk 04:40, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
See notes above re: my upcoming struggle with WP:OWN, also the many thanks for the help and support. :)
Below, noting a couple outstanding issues that came up during the rewrite process:
1) Images -- The ones in the article now (save for the title card at the top) were sourced and placed by User:Coin945. I'm not sure they're 100% suitable, but admit to finding the whole question of Wiki-images a bit daunting, so would welcome any further input. (Update: OK, have now received further input, from the editors at WP:NFCR, and in substantial agreement with their assessment, and on previous assurances from Coin945, have removed most of the current images... so we're back to square one. Honestly, I'm not sure if any other images at this point are going to enhance the article -- as was mentioned in the image review discussion, pics of people in historical costume aren't exactly going to act as a huge insight in an article about an historical sketch show.)
2) Sourcing -- The previous version of the article had all of 111 sources, and that with heavy reliance on maybe five-ten. I've reduced it to 70-odd. Again, I'll absolutely admit this is by no means my area of expertise and welcome input (especially as regards the need to source awards/nominations), but am also pretty sure that that number doesn't need to dramatically go up again, nor that the wholly uncontroversial material in the Format section especially needs extra citations.
3) Level of detail -- By my best estimate I've removed 30,000+ words from the article, most of which was fancruft-y stuff that -- by consensus, as far as I can tell from the previous talkpage conversations above -- was actually heavily obscuring the readers' getting a decent handle on what the show is all about. What's left is based on and sourced in what's either obviously important to same, standard to Wiki TV articles as far as I can tell, or what reliable media commentaries have considered important. It's also been vetted by interested and experienced Wiki-editors. Please, going forward can we ensure that any further information meets at least one and preferably more of this criteria before it's added?
Cheers, Shoebox2 talk 13:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
It should be noted that most if not all of these were previously suggested during my recent rewrite. I've made notes below as to why I didn't use each one. Shoebox2 talk 16:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
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Look, Coin, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, but trying to catalogue every single random online mention of the show isn't helping anything. We already have a lengthy and legitimate reception/criticism section in the article. At this point any additions made to it are going to have to come from legitimate, notable commentators who have both authority on the subject and something interesting to say on it. Shoebox2 talk 16:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
The Terrible Treasures bit hangs off the end. I should know... I put it there in the first place when I wrote it. These should be more than enough for some sort of paragraph.section about all the interactive/web content and games provided by the TV show.-- Coin945 ( talk) 18:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Several quotes and links
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I've commenced merging/rewriting, having given it a week as promised and no objections as yet (or response at all other than Coin's, actually). Results (for Series One half-way through Two) can now be found in my sandbox. Summary of the proposed changes can be found on the episode article's talkpage. Feedback welcome either here or there. Thanks, Shoebox2 talk 04:33, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and submitted the Good Article nomination. Now that the rewrite's completed and everyone interested has had a chance to tweak and improve, I'm genuinely curious how close we all are to being rewarded for the hard work. :) Shoebox2 talk 19:54, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Congrats on getting it prep'd Span ( talk) 01:45, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Christine ( talk · contribs) 06:05, 25 January 2014 (UTC) Hi, I'm reviewing this article. Please note that this review is being used for the GA Recruitment Centre [4], so there will be more explanations included. It's my practice to first fill out the template, and then include a more thorough prose and source review. I look forward to this review, since my niche on WP is American (and one Aussie) children's TV shows. It should be fun learning about UK kiddie's TV. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 06:05, 25 January 2014 (UTC) 699 0180 GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Interesting and fun article, very close to GA. There are a few issues that are easily addressed.
Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 00:35, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I tend to be somewhat thorough in my prose reviews, but I promise that the end result is a stronger article. I review articles with the perspective of someday going through the FAC process (which this article has the potential for), so I try to prepare the nominator for it. Consequently, some of my comments and suggestions apply to the FA criteria, but again, the goal is a higher quality article. I go through each section, like they do in FAC. Please feel free to disagree; if you give me a good and logical reason not to follow my suggestions, I usually accept it. I look at the lead last, since I like to be more familiar with the article before I judge if it summarises the article. Let's begin.
I think that you should seriously consider changing the structure of this article. According to MOS:TV, "The structure of television articles, season/series articles, and episode articles are all relatively identical. The sections below will map out the basic structure for these articles. The basic order of these pages tends to follow: Lead, episode plot, production, and critical reception; with any other miscellaneous sections coming afterward. This is because Wikipedia uses plot information as context for understanding the real world information in the article" Children's TV shows require a different structure, of course; instead of a plot section, we need to include "Format". (It's my educated opinion that for these kinds of shows, format is king.) In the kids' TV show articles I've written (i.e., Sesame Street and Blue's Clues, both of which are FAs), I've placed the "Format" section after the "History" section, which you call "Background", since I don't think that you need to have an understanding of the shows' format to understand the show's context; rather, I think that an understanding of the genesis and development of the show is necessary to understand everything that follows, including the format.
This is the structure I advise for this article: I'd put your "Background" section first. Then I'd put your "Format" section second. For the SS and BC articles, and on the advice of other editors, I included an "Educational goals" section after because including a discussion about curriculum and the producers' goals seemed to fit best here. Your "Content" section seems to discuss the producers' goals; I'll leave it up to you to rename it. Then I'd move the "Production details" below "Content". Actually, the section you've named "Production details" reads more like "Production history"; I suggest you move it further down in the article in the the MOS refers to as a miscellaneous section. "Process" seems like it would go in "Production details", with "Music" and "Cast" as subsections, although I think that your "Cast" section is fine as a stand-alone section. The order of the rest of the sections look fine.
At this point, I'd go through the sections, but I think that I'll stop for now, to give you time to re-structure, if you wish, since if you re-structure, you may need to move some of the content around. Remember that these are just suggestions. I make them because I'm not sure that FAC reviewers would find the current structure of this article acceptable, since it doesn't follow the MOS. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Again, my apologies that this has taken so long. Now I'll start on the thorough prose review, in which I'll go through each section and make suggestions. Thanks for following my suggestions about structure; I agree that it looks much stronger now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 22:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Background
Agreed, both good (in fact, rather embarrassingly obvious in hindsight) ideas. Done.
I've rearranged and slightly reworded these sentences along the lines suggested.
I've never been particularly happy with this sentence myself. It's an attempt to concisely summarise the idea that producers wanted to ensure the show would be recognizable as and respectful of the already familiar, best-beloved concept. ('Determined', meanwhile, isn't so much a Briticism as a symptom of my fondness for obscure word usages. Will try and keep that to a minimum going forward.) Think I've now come up with a clearer variant with your help.
Used this nearly verbatim. Much nicer phrasing.
Another sentence I've been wondering uneasily about for some time. Happily revamped along the lines suggested.
Yeah, I had a feeling after reading WP:MOS that my sentence length was going to get me into trouble. :) Will go through the rest of the article and attempt to mitigate similiar issues. Meantime, have split this sentence into its component clauses (the approval of the adult-focused creative team and the 'grossology' are actually two different things; I agree that possibly wasn't clear enough, but do think it's important to keep them separate.)
Nnngggghhh... OK. I think the original version gets the point across more elegantly, but can also see your technical points. Decent compromise hopefully achieved. :)
Have separated this sentence into component clauses. I still think it's worth separately hilighting the two concepts -- the fact that the team specifically watched Life of Brian etc initially to set the tone, and then the ongoing influences.
That's all I have time for now, so I'll stop here and continue at a later time, probably tomorrow. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Looking forward to it. Meantime, as noted, I'll go through and see if I can head off any further problems along the lines mentioned. Thanks again, Shoebox2 talk 15:39, 3 February 2014 (UTC Format
Heh... you want exhaustive, you should've seen the original list it was cut down from. But yeah, a few more can be taken out. Have reduced the list to only those eras seen over all five series, and linked those last two as requested. ETA: Added a few important later ones back in, hopefully in a way that will still maintain readability. I feel like it's useful to help demonstrate the scope of the series' ambitions.
Reworded along the lines suggested above, with minor modifications; I think 'within living memory' is more to the point, and it wasn't really a 'focus', more a matter of a handful of sketches. ETA: Removed the first bit altogether. Deary eventually broke that rule himself, and it's always bugged me anyway that the claim wasn't sourced -- in fact there's no real evidence that the TV show producers were following that concept specifically.
Pretty much, yes. As noted in the article, the choice of time periods was overwhelmingly derived directly from the books, with a few unique ones added in the last two series. Which ones were used seems to have had no particular rhyme or reason beyond the natural 'we haven't tried this yet..." inherent a five-year run.
Beyond that, episodes were cut together by the producers, entirely on their whim, after the sketches were filmed en masse. Meaning any era was just as likely to show up next as any other, and no quota of appearances per episode or series was imposed. (If you look closely it's possible to discern creative commonalities in the content of some episodes, but it's not something any but the most devoted fan would pick up.) Basically, the show resembles a conventional British sketch-comedy much more than it does an 'educational' series. I've added what I hope is a bit of clarification to this effect in the article. ETA: Also renamed the 'Educational Goals' section to more accurately indicate what the show was trying to do. 'Goals' implies a level of deliberate structure and care that this show just doesn't have.
All sketches within a given era tended to be featured together. But otherwise, again, there was no set structure; Tudor segments might be followed by Ancient Egypt which in turn would be followed by the Stone Age and then the Victorians.
As the later 'Educational Goals' section also hopefully makes clear, any actual teaching was done on an informal and decidedly unprofessional basis. There was no vetting to determine optimal audience impact, in the Sesame Street vein; British children's edutainment just doesn't work that way, or at least has distinctly different priorities re: what's considered optimal. As it was once explained to me, the British emphasis is on avoiding modelling dangerous/destructive behaviours that could plausibly be imitated (and/or would advance understanding unacceptably, ie. swearing or sexual activity) otherwise it's largely assumed that the kiddies will either be OK with it or won't get it anyway.
Bear in mind that Doctor Who, for all its intense and often dark sci-fi/fantasy themes, is still considered 'family entertainment' in UK terms. HH, meanwhile, in only the third episode happily explained the Vikings' concept of heaven and Hell to seven-year-olds, complete with cute (and frankly hilarious) little Up/Down infographics... then followed that up with a sketch featuring Nero using Christians as 'Roman candles' (although in that case they did spare audiences the visuals).
'Specific' switched out for 'recognizable', which was the intended concept. 'Programming' refers to TV, now that I come to think of it. Edited a bit to make all that clearer.
Fixed ref to Eccleston, that was a problem caused by the restructuring. I'm going to argue that 'deeply' and 'unabashedly' help enhance understanding of the subject. Removed the rest without qualm, tho.
Erm... off the top of my head, basically, as bolstered by, if I may say so, my unusually detailed knowledge of the show (having previously undertaken an episode-by-episode review of same, like so: http://hhreviews.wordpress.com/. No I don't have a life, thanks for asking.)
Again, the list here has already been reduced considerably from a massive, uber-fancrufty wall o'text that attempted to catalogue every single possible sketch inspiration. I've tried to refocus on only the legitimately notable recurring sketches (they're easy to pick out in context, as the most frequently-seen and/or elaborate) and mention only those parody inspirations that are really, really obvious. I can see myself removing a few entries if the list is too long (or changing the descriptions if too informal), but all the details in this section can be verified as important plot points by even a casual viewer of the show.
Music
The idea is that the music stood out as notable and popular to the extent that they devoted an entire prestigious public concert to it... however, on second thought, yes that is a bit obscure as written. I've clarified it while keeping the Prom info in-place; an attempt to move it to the Reception section just felt too weird, as if I were suddenly switching focus to an entire other production in the middle of this one.
Slight problem; I have added a ref for the song-per-episode and the format of same, but there is none for the missing song in S01E05 (in fact the ref in question refers to 'every episode' having a song). It's a bit hard to explain, but most media commentators came to the show around Series Two or later, after the music really started to become special. Frankly nobody but devout fans really care about the Series One songs save for 'Born 2 Rule'; they're otherwise so comparatively nondescript that a missing one just isn't worthy of note. Could we consider this a plot point, verifiable at the source? ETA: I do have a source indicating a missing song, but not where it's missing from: http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/16/horrible-histories-mourned-after-last-episode-airs-3885552/ . Otherwise, the episode itself is on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMXi5UAkm70
'These' are indeed the previously-mentioned songs, have clarified and moved the YouTube ref to a less confusing spot. Think the paragraphing works better as-is, tho.
I'm going to argue this one. 'Recognisable' helps make the point that the parody was deliberate, and understood as such. The plural on 'Georges' I think is OK, as it seems to be acceptable if not actually common UK usage, and in fact is used within the song in question ("We were born to rule over you/Georges I, III, IV and II...").
Not sure how broad a source you need here? I've provided a ref for the existence and name of these specials, in the form of an episode guide from the generally respectable British Comedy Guide, is this OK? Will keep looking for something more substantial.
Another sentence I was never happy with. :) Ended up rewriting the entire section pretty extensively in the wake of fixing the Prom ref, hopefully all is much clearer and more informative now.
Done.
Really glad you liked it. :) Have taken up your suggested phrasing in turn... would be very willing to include a note as well, how do I go about doing that?
Educational goals
From the context of the source the specific reference is to a formal teaching lesson plan, such as would be applied by government authority to UK grade-school settings. Asked if the show is consciously following 'the school curriculum', the interviewee (Jenner) essentially laughs and says no, they're just out for the funny. I frankly have no idea how to summarize this concisely and was hoping the info at the 'curriculum' article would do the job for me. ETA: Have now attempted a rewrite myself along the lines suggested.
So you're not going to let me off the hook on this one, eh? *pauses hopefully, while making doe eyes* ... Fine. :) Will need to go back and review a few things, but that should be doable. ETA: Reviewed and done.
The sentence is actually complete, just maybe obscure phrasing-wise ('song' and 'sketch' are the nouns, 'champion' is the verb). Have reworded it a bit more conventionally.
Right, so I clearly have a problem. :) I can't help it, short sentences tend to feel stiff and boring to me. Your suggestion here, however, doesn't, and so has been happily adopted mostly as-is.
Sure, again, makes sense. High time I realised this isn't my blog. :)
Cast
Done.
Much better phrasing, adopted as-is.
They created both Yonderland and Bill explicitly so they could continue working together as a troupe. Have reworded that a bit for more clarity.
I'm almost done, but I'll stop here for now. I may have more time to finish the prose review, and start on the source review, day after tomorrow. Again, thanks for your patience with how slow this has been. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Reception
Agreed, removed.
Much better phrasing, used verbatim.
Yes, afraid so, except the couple of specials to air this year (combining a mix of old and new sketches). I don't mention specific reasons why in the article because there's never actually been a formal 'this is why we stopped' announcement -- just informal statements from producer Norris -- but the generally accepted gist seems to be that they'd just run out of facts they could make funny, and Norris at least was concerned about the quality potentially dropping off because of it. There was much lamenting across the UK when the end was announced and even more when it aired, believe me. As for an earlier mention, the lead does say right off the top that it ran for five series, with dates. Will that do? And, come to think of it, should I elaborate on those reasons why after all?
Spin-offs: You should have some prose in this section. I suggest that you include at least a few sentences about the shows.
Agreed, done.
Finished with prose review. Now, I'll move onto a source review. I've already seen some issues, which I'll address next. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Lead
Done.
Given that I've now added content to the 'Spinoffs' section, is the lead paragraph OK? I wouldn't be crushed to remove it, as it still has very little to do with the article, but was told that it's best practice to make mention of any associated programs in the lead.
I've added a sentence or two as per (my understanding of) suggested. Not sure how to go about further working the 'Reception' content in beyond what I've already said re: critical praise. From what I can tell from the WP:MOS the lead is already dangerously close to overlong -- can you advise? (Maybe this is where we sacrifice the spinoff info?)
Christine (Figureskatingfan) (
talk) 23:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
*phew* OK, all done. I wasn't able to find all the info for every ref but it's complete and consistent as I can make it.
Fixed.
Removed -- I left it in there thinking it would be nice to have an actual book as a ref, but on closer inspection it's really just the briefest of mentions, so.
Found the same press release being hosted by what seems like a much more respectable aggregation site. Is this OK? As you say, there're dozens of alternate cites for the bare statement itself, but I like having the extra info in the release.
Found a new YouTube version. Have cited it pointedly as a DVD extra clip, hopefully that helps the credibility a bit.
Huh, not sure who added that. As originally written, the statement was I figured already supported by the entire section immediately following. Is a cite needed beyond that? This one is just a recap of the same cited/quoted articles, so doesn't support the specific statement anyway.
Repaired.
Understood, will continue to improve the reliability as suggested.
Review is now complete. Again, thanks for your patience with how long it's taken. I've had fun and I hope that we've made a better article. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 01:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Ah, the ol' Gordian knot approach, works for me. :) Have reworked the header along the lines suggested.
Done.
Once you take care of these few issues, it's good to go and I will pass to GA. Nice work! Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 23:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi. Coin945 here. An on-again-off-again editor of this page. (Cleaned up much of the fancruft back in the day, but apparently added some of my own. Kudos to Shoebox for taking the reins off of me and turning my mediocre article into GA standard stuff. :D). My role no longer includes editing this page, but seeing viewing the sources I couldnt help noticing some things.-- Coin945 ( talk) 11:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Hmmmm. It still works just fine for me -- and I've tried it now in Chrome, Firefox and IE. Did you test it in a different browser? It's a very basic mp3 file, so should be playable under most standard PC/mobile circumstances. Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's one of the inconsistencies that as noted above I'm still in the process of fixing. Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
As far as I can tell from WP:CITE/ES, there doesn't seem to be a particularly favoured standard, but the one in use on this page seems to follow the guidelines pretty closely. At any rate, for the moment--as per the notes from an experienced GA/FA reviewer above--I'm just trying to ensure all cites are as complete as possible, which should be easy enough to build on in the event the article does move to FA review and encounters specifically concerned editors there. :) Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
From the edit history (including Coco's efforts) it appears there were originally individual sources for most if not all of the individual awards, before someone swopped them out wholesale for the LionTV link. I agree that although it's not apparently a GA requirement each award should ideally have its own cite, and if you can find the remaining ones, please do. ETA: Never mind, found them myself. In fact, three were already covered by an existing BAFTA reference. Shoebox2 talk 13:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Came across these whole scouting Google books for a different article. Who knows.. Maybe they have some useful info. (There's a bit in one about the Stephen fry version - sown thing that I know was a topic for debate during the ga review).-- Coin945 ( talk) 03:40, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
...and I'm thinking it would be helpful to get consensus on what to do about it now, prior to airing, to prevent this article being unnecessarily disfigured all over again.
Invited to the discussion: ( Cocolacoste— Figureskatingfan— Coin945— Spanglej)
Essentially: Lion TV and the CBBC have contrived to relaunch live-action sketch-based Horrible Histories, but in most important respects an all-new version--as it would have to be, given the original five series wrapped up with a very deliberate grand finale. Hence the 'sixth series' will in fact involve an entirely different format as enacted by a largely all-new production team and starring cast. On the other hand, it's clearly set within the same universe; several of the writers will be returning, a few castmembers will be making re-appearances as familiar characters (notably Farnaby as Death) and the song parodies will still be a feature.
All of this, needless to say, is inevitably going to be a nightmare to try and shoehorn into this already teetering-on-the-verge-of-overlong article. Frankly, while I still have great affection for the show, I don't want to spend the rest of my writing life sorting through cast list chaos. So what I'd really like to do, and personally think there's easily enough justification for, is to give the revived HH similar treatment to Horrible Histories with Stephen Fry: a brief overview in this article with a link to a more detailed standalone page--perhaps called, in line with this one, Horrible Histories (2015 TV series). I'd be pleased to set up the skeleton of same--infobox etc.--and let any and all freshly-enthused editors have at it from there.
Thing is, as usual, I'm not sure of Wikiprecedent for this sort of thing, and glancing through the article on revived TV series didn't make it quite as clear-cut as I hoped it would. So I'm open to any and all advice and guidance... Thanks, Shoebox2 talk 01:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
...with, again, my profuse apologies for the delay. :) It's at Horrible Histories (2015 TV series), as discussed. I've included all relevant points as I understand them; interested editors are, of course, welcome to build on that foundation, and a note to that effect will be added to the FAQ above. Thanks, Shoebox2 talk 21:07, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I think they are doing series 6 with new cast. -- 137.44.126.255 ( talk) 23:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's on the BBC Media page - and it's been filmed; mix of new and old cast. 80.189.41.134 ( talk) 10:39, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
With a sixth series on the way, with an almost entirely new regular cast, just thinking that trying to fit all the different performers into one section of an article could get increasingly confusing. Particularly confusing is the different categories of actors such as; "starring" actors (i.e. Martha Howe Douglas, Matt Baynton etc.), "regular" supporting cast (Lawry Lewin, Dominique Moore etc), "minor" supporting cast (Javone Prince, Lisa Devlin etc), recurring guest stars (David Baddiel, Meera Syal, League of Gents. etc) and one off guest stars (Alexei Sayle, Chris Addison etc.). To add to the chaos the new series completely revamps the original starring lineup (Baynton, Farnabay, Howe-Douglas, Howick, Rickard & Willbond) with only Farnabay and Howick returning. As well as these two the new lineup now also features Naz Osmanoglu, Adam Riches and Tom Stourtan. To make matters even more confusing, supporting actors from previous series, Jalaal Hartley and Jessica Ransom, are now promoted to starring performers, somewhat reverse of Sarah Hadland's case. Additionally Lawry Lewin, from series 2 to 5 returns as a supporting performer. Bearing all of this in mind, i was think weather it would be a good idea to give the cast members an article of their own, i.e. List of Horrible Histories cast members. This make it far easier to break down the categories of performers. The show had definitely run for long enough and received more than enough popularity for a stand alone cast article. If you think this is a good idea i'll get started as soon as possible, but might need a little help as i am not an experienced user :) User:Xpion ( talk • contribs) 13:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
One episode features a sketch of "The Black Spot" by pirates to mark a man for death. However, the black spot is an entirely fictional literary device invented by the author of Treasure Island. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.73.136 ( talk) 00:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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"Jenner" is referenced 4 times in the article without a first mention or credit as historical consultant. I don't know enough about the history to edit, but it's a huge omission. Greg Jenner Illtud ( talk) 08:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)