While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
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![]() | On 24 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Gay bishops to LGBT bishops. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Source for Barbara Harris being a lesbian? Evercat 01:57, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
for historical examples the use of the term gay or homosexual would be an anachronism
Hmm? In what way? People's understanding of homosexuality may have been different in the olden days, but it still existed, surely? I don't think such basic human attributes as their sexual urges have changed, at least not since prehistoric times... -- Oliver P. 23:39, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
So? The word didn't exist, but they were still homosexuals. The word "Elephant" didn't exist until the 14th century; does that mean it's an anachronism to call Abul-Abbas an Elephant? - Efghij 23:51, Aug 29, 2003 (UTC)
Simply put, the idea that a person is defined by their sexual object choice is a very modern one. To map that definition back onto a person who existed centuries before that idea did is an anachronism. -- Someone else 02:14, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, while it is as such anachronism, do you go to a Shakespeare article and find it written in "King James" English? No. There has to be a certain balance of authenticity and accessibility. If anything, the word of the time would have likely been sodomy. So maybe use that? Master Thief Garrett 22:38, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some sources for listing these people here would be good. Thier Wikipedia entries make no mention. DJ Clayworth 21:29, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
If Robinson's election receives the necessary consents, his consecration will be held November 2, 2003, and he would be installed as bishop on March 7, 2004. New Hampshire priest is first openly gay man elected bishop -- Ann O'nyme 23:08, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
After edition by Evercat:
But he's still active in 2000: Bishops follow deputies in dropping last resolve of sexuality resolution. -- Ann O'nyme 23:17, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Hrmm? Isn't this what just happened, on August 5? Evercat 00:04, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Moved from Homosexual bishops in keeping with our pluralization policy. - Efghij 01:24, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Nothing in the articles about Pope Benedict IX, Pope Julius III, Pope Leo X, Pope Paul II and Pope Sixtus IV makes any reference to their performing any homosexual acts. If they were, indeed, gay, their articles should say so, or their names should be removed from this list. RickK 01:45, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
So as not to be totally uninformative, I should append some additional comments from Leigh W. Rutledge's "New Book of Gay Lists": John XII "an insatiable bisexual...he was accused of running a brothel out of St. Peter's"; Benedict IX "turned the Lateran Palace into the site of lavish homosexual orgies"; Paul II "known to his cardinals as 'Our Lady of Pity' for his tendency to cry at the slightest provocation, he allegedly died of a heart attack while being sodomized by one of his favorite boys"; Sixtus IV "took one of his beautiful young nephews, Pietro Riario, as his lover"; Julius III "lovers with his bastard son Berruccino...appointed handsome teenage boys as cardinals and allegedly ...brought them together for orgies where he would watch them sodomize each other. Della Casa's famous poem "In Praise of Sodomy" [De laudibus sodomiae] was dedicated to him. -- Someone else 03:29, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The allegations against the list of Popes should be in their individual articles where sources can be given, allegations detailed, and opposing arguments presented. You can't do all of that in a list. In addition, these men were known primarily as Popes, not Bishops, and the fact that they may have had sexual relations with another man does not necessarily make them homosexual. They might be bisexual, they might be experimenters. It is misleading to characterize them as homosexual bishops when in fact one might have actually been a bisexual Pope. The information should be moved to an appropriate place other than homosexual bishop Ark30inf 02:29, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Further discussion moved here from Wikipedia:Votes for deletion
I removed from VfD because most folks seem to favour a title change over deletion. Still not sure we agree on what the title should be, though! :) Martin 22:26, 10 Sep 2003 (UTC)
See Talk:List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people. There has been a proposal to remove anyone from that list whose article does not mention that they are gay. We can't have it both ways. If those people are removed from the List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people, then the bishops should be moved from this list if their articles don't mention that they're gay. RickK 02:56, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I tried to clean this up a bit - I think the Gay Popes (or alleged at least) should go on the Gay popes page that there is, not here with no information. I hope I have improved on this article. JG of Borg 18:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This article needed a massive rewrite. There is no need to have a section on gay popes when there is a separate article. Likewise, the priesthood section was totally speculative. It took a paragraph to say that there are no known cases of openly or outed gay bishops in the RC church. (Of course there are gay bishops, but that it beyond the scope of Wikipedia) And who says that some of the abusive priests have "undoubtedly" become bishops? Carolynparrishfan 23:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
One would think that homosexuals in the episcopate were a novelty or peculiarly Anglican. I added some historical info. - there is a lot out there concerning the presence of gay men in the episcopacy, and the various reactions of their judicataries towards them. Fishhead64 19:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Information is correct, but it's not really neutral in presentation in my opinion. Any other thoughts. (About 2/3 of people...) 69.236.160.12 ( talk) 01:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I think that in certain cases, there were reports that one gay bishop had been succeeded by another gay bishop, in a strange phenomenon that might be called gay apostolic succession. For instance, take the series of affairs in the diocese of Palm Beach, where Anthony O'Connell suceeded Joseph Keith Symons as bishop. Is it possible that certain bishops are deliberately demanding that their episcopal successor be a homosexual just as they are ? With all the public tensions that we have seen in the Catholic Church in recent times, I feel that it is not at all unreasonable to presume that there is. ADM ( talk) 22:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
The "Ron Boston" mentioned in this section is simply not notable. The source is not reliable: it's just a blog which doesn't cite it's own sources, and its claims that Boston was a high ranking LDS official is ludicrousness (he was just the equivalent of a parish priest or a local pastor). Additionally there is no evidence demonstrated that this nn individual is deceased, so it fails both WP:N & WP:BLP. This "conversion" is so unremarkable and so poorly documented it does not not even qualifying for a passing mention as a WP:ONEVENT. The whole section should be replaced or removed. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 22:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
The grammar in the following sentence in the first paragraph "Homosexual activity was engaged in secretly" should be cleaned up. The adverb "secretly" modifies "engaged". Putting the word "in" between the two is either redundant, grammatically incorrect or both because "secretly" becomes a dangling modifier.
Better to just write "Homosexual activity was engaged in secret" or "Homosexual activity was engaged secretly". A third alternative is to change "secretly" to a noun, hence "Homosexual activity was engaged in secrecy". Neargonad ( talk) 22:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
In 2010/2011, bishop John Favalora in Florida was mentioned in a sex scandal in Florida.
Would it not be more appropriate to title this page "Homosexual Bishops", as that is the more correct term? "Gay bishops" could just redirect to that, and not the other way around. Timotheus1 ( talk) 04:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Wow, the article as it stands comes off as incredibly ignorant.
There is a HUGE distinction between being a homosexual and engaging in homosexual coitus. There are, no one would doubt, plenty of continent homosexually-oriented clergy, and there are plenty of heterosexual clergy who have engaged in homosexual activity (experimentally, on the down low, whatever). Conflating the two is just an embarrassment to Wikipedia.
From the first line: "The existence of homosexual bishops... [was] never... considered licit."
This couldn't be more wrong. See, for example, CCC 2357-2359. Homosexuality has always been accepted, at least officially. In the Catholic Church, since married men may not be ordained to the episcopate, ALL sexual activity of bishops is illicit, regardless of whether the partner is male or female. So, neither a bishop's orientation, nor the homosexual or heterosexual nature of a bishop's sexual activities is of any relevance whatsoever.
-- SlothMcCarty ( talk) 21:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
An editor is claiming that a sourced statement concerning Hipólito Reyes Larios violates BLP but has yet been able to point to the Wikipedia guidance that confirms this. In the absence of such guidance the text may remain in place. I would rather that editors avoid edit warring and address concerns constructively. Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:50, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
The three bishops elected in Toronto in the fall of 2016, including Bishop Robertson, were consecrated over the weekend, if someone wants to update that section of the article (since my doing so is apparently so objectionable). Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 14:26, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 13:23, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Gay bishops → LGBT bishops – The lead of this page starts off with: "This article largely discusses presence of openly lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender and queer bishops in churches governed under episcopal polities. The existence of LGBTQ bishops in the Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist and other traditions is a matter of historical record, though never, until recently, were LGBTQ clergy and bishops ordained by any of the main Christian denominations." It is therefore clear that the article encompasses more than simply gay bishops and that this is not the sole or even necessarily the primary focus of the page, as lesbian, bisexual and transgender are also primary points of focus. Helper201 ( talk) 22:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 24 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Gay bishops to LGBT bishops. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Source for Barbara Harris being a lesbian? Evercat 01:57, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
for historical examples the use of the term gay or homosexual would be an anachronism
Hmm? In what way? People's understanding of homosexuality may have been different in the olden days, but it still existed, surely? I don't think such basic human attributes as their sexual urges have changed, at least not since prehistoric times... -- Oliver P. 23:39, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)
So? The word didn't exist, but they were still homosexuals. The word "Elephant" didn't exist until the 14th century; does that mean it's an anachronism to call Abul-Abbas an Elephant? - Efghij 23:51, Aug 29, 2003 (UTC)
Simply put, the idea that a person is defined by their sexual object choice is a very modern one. To map that definition back onto a person who existed centuries before that idea did is an anachronism. -- Someone else 02:14, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, while it is as such anachronism, do you go to a Shakespeare article and find it written in "King James" English? No. There has to be a certain balance of authenticity and accessibility. If anything, the word of the time would have likely been sodomy. So maybe use that? Master Thief Garrett 22:38, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some sources for listing these people here would be good. Thier Wikipedia entries make no mention. DJ Clayworth 21:29, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
If Robinson's election receives the necessary consents, his consecration will be held November 2, 2003, and he would be installed as bishop on March 7, 2004. New Hampshire priest is first openly gay man elected bishop -- Ann O'nyme 23:08, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
After edition by Evercat:
But he's still active in 2000: Bishops follow deputies in dropping last resolve of sexuality resolution. -- Ann O'nyme 23:17, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Hrmm? Isn't this what just happened, on August 5? Evercat 00:04, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Moved from Homosexual bishops in keeping with our pluralization policy. - Efghij 01:24, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Nothing in the articles about Pope Benedict IX, Pope Julius III, Pope Leo X, Pope Paul II and Pope Sixtus IV makes any reference to their performing any homosexual acts. If they were, indeed, gay, their articles should say so, or their names should be removed from this list. RickK 01:45, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
So as not to be totally uninformative, I should append some additional comments from Leigh W. Rutledge's "New Book of Gay Lists": John XII "an insatiable bisexual...he was accused of running a brothel out of St. Peter's"; Benedict IX "turned the Lateran Palace into the site of lavish homosexual orgies"; Paul II "known to his cardinals as 'Our Lady of Pity' for his tendency to cry at the slightest provocation, he allegedly died of a heart attack while being sodomized by one of his favorite boys"; Sixtus IV "took one of his beautiful young nephews, Pietro Riario, as his lover"; Julius III "lovers with his bastard son Berruccino...appointed handsome teenage boys as cardinals and allegedly ...brought them together for orgies where he would watch them sodomize each other. Della Casa's famous poem "In Praise of Sodomy" [De laudibus sodomiae] was dedicated to him. -- Someone else 03:29, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The allegations against the list of Popes should be in their individual articles where sources can be given, allegations detailed, and opposing arguments presented. You can't do all of that in a list. In addition, these men were known primarily as Popes, not Bishops, and the fact that they may have had sexual relations with another man does not necessarily make them homosexual. They might be bisexual, they might be experimenters. It is misleading to characterize them as homosexual bishops when in fact one might have actually been a bisexual Pope. The information should be moved to an appropriate place other than homosexual bishop Ark30inf 02:29, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Further discussion moved here from Wikipedia:Votes for deletion
I removed from VfD because most folks seem to favour a title change over deletion. Still not sure we agree on what the title should be, though! :) Martin 22:26, 10 Sep 2003 (UTC)
See Talk:List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people. There has been a proposal to remove anyone from that list whose article does not mention that they are gay. We can't have it both ways. If those people are removed from the List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people, then the bishops should be moved from this list if their articles don't mention that they're gay. RickK 02:56, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I tried to clean this up a bit - I think the Gay Popes (or alleged at least) should go on the Gay popes page that there is, not here with no information. I hope I have improved on this article. JG of Borg 18:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This article needed a massive rewrite. There is no need to have a section on gay popes when there is a separate article. Likewise, the priesthood section was totally speculative. It took a paragraph to say that there are no known cases of openly or outed gay bishops in the RC church. (Of course there are gay bishops, but that it beyond the scope of Wikipedia) And who says that some of the abusive priests have "undoubtedly" become bishops? Carolynparrishfan 23:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
One would think that homosexuals in the episcopate were a novelty or peculiarly Anglican. I added some historical info. - there is a lot out there concerning the presence of gay men in the episcopacy, and the various reactions of their judicataries towards them. Fishhead64 19:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Information is correct, but it's not really neutral in presentation in my opinion. Any other thoughts. (About 2/3 of people...) 69.236.160.12 ( talk) 01:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I think that in certain cases, there were reports that one gay bishop had been succeeded by another gay bishop, in a strange phenomenon that might be called gay apostolic succession. For instance, take the series of affairs in the diocese of Palm Beach, where Anthony O'Connell suceeded Joseph Keith Symons as bishop. Is it possible that certain bishops are deliberately demanding that their episcopal successor be a homosexual just as they are ? With all the public tensions that we have seen in the Catholic Church in recent times, I feel that it is not at all unreasonable to presume that there is. ADM ( talk) 22:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
The "Ron Boston" mentioned in this section is simply not notable. The source is not reliable: it's just a blog which doesn't cite it's own sources, and its claims that Boston was a high ranking LDS official is ludicrousness (he was just the equivalent of a parish priest or a local pastor). Additionally there is no evidence demonstrated that this nn individual is deceased, so it fails both WP:N & WP:BLP. This "conversion" is so unremarkable and so poorly documented it does not not even qualifying for a passing mention as a WP:ONEVENT. The whole section should be replaced or removed. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 22:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
The grammar in the following sentence in the first paragraph "Homosexual activity was engaged in secretly" should be cleaned up. The adverb "secretly" modifies "engaged". Putting the word "in" between the two is either redundant, grammatically incorrect or both because "secretly" becomes a dangling modifier.
Better to just write "Homosexual activity was engaged in secret" or "Homosexual activity was engaged secretly". A third alternative is to change "secretly" to a noun, hence "Homosexual activity was engaged in secrecy". Neargonad ( talk) 22:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
In 2010/2011, bishop John Favalora in Florida was mentioned in a sex scandal in Florida.
Would it not be more appropriate to title this page "Homosexual Bishops", as that is the more correct term? "Gay bishops" could just redirect to that, and not the other way around. Timotheus1 ( talk) 04:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Wow, the article as it stands comes off as incredibly ignorant.
There is a HUGE distinction between being a homosexual and engaging in homosexual coitus. There are, no one would doubt, plenty of continent homosexually-oriented clergy, and there are plenty of heterosexual clergy who have engaged in homosexual activity (experimentally, on the down low, whatever). Conflating the two is just an embarrassment to Wikipedia.
From the first line: "The existence of homosexual bishops... [was] never... considered licit."
This couldn't be more wrong. See, for example, CCC 2357-2359. Homosexuality has always been accepted, at least officially. In the Catholic Church, since married men may not be ordained to the episcopate, ALL sexual activity of bishops is illicit, regardless of whether the partner is male or female. So, neither a bishop's orientation, nor the homosexual or heterosexual nature of a bishop's sexual activities is of any relevance whatsoever.
-- SlothMcCarty ( talk) 21:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
An editor is claiming that a sourced statement concerning Hipólito Reyes Larios violates BLP but has yet been able to point to the Wikipedia guidance that confirms this. In the absence of such guidance the text may remain in place. I would rather that editors avoid edit warring and address concerns constructively. Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:50, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
The three bishops elected in Toronto in the fall of 2016, including Bishop Robertson, were consecrated over the weekend, if someone wants to update that section of the article (since my doing so is apparently so objectionable). Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 14:26, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 13:23, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Gay bishops → LGBT bishops – The lead of this page starts off with: "This article largely discusses presence of openly lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender and queer bishops in churches governed under episcopal polities. The existence of LGBTQ bishops in the Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist and other traditions is a matter of historical record, though never, until recently, were LGBTQ clergy and bishops ordained by any of the main Christian denominations." It is therefore clear that the article encompasses more than simply gay bishops and that this is not the sole or even necessarily the primary focus of the page, as lesbian, bisexual and transgender are also primary points of focus. Helper201 ( talk) 22:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)