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Orange reports that there had been a consensus that this wording represents a NPOV; I wasn't objecting to the POV, but rather to the superfluity of the clause "and criticism" as a section heading. "Medican Analysis" does the job, as the critical aspect of that analysis is implied and manifest within the text. Naturezak ( talk) 20:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
The word analysis is fine by me. Peter morrell 07:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
agreed with orangemarlin. CONCLUSIONS--At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
"a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water"
I think that that number should be changed to 1060. -- 200.69.215.69 ( talk) 13:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It's supposedly a direct quote from Park. If we're going to quote him, we should quote him accurately, even if we think a different way of expressing his thoughts would be better. Otherwise we need to replace the quote with a paraphrase. Can someone find the source of the quote? I'm guessing it's his book Voodoo Science but don't have that handy. Raymond Arritt ( talk) 05:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
So where was this discussion? David D. (Talk) 12:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
<indent> But is it well known that large numbers foster any kind of understanding? To paraphrase one example of analogy I like: "A king once asked how long is eternity. His wisest advisor responded: Once every thousand years, a little bird sharpens his beak on a mountain made of diamond. When this activity has worn the mountain into a pebble, the first second of eternity will be over." He could have used numbers but would the king have been any wiser? David D. (Talk) 14:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
BTW please do not delete my comments agreed with orangemarlin. 'CONCLUSIONS--At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions' because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias.
thanks.-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
what was wrong with my last edit and I should be blocked ? (according to user orangemarlin) This is NOPV edit and supported by the already cited references. Who disagrees?
Meta-analyses, which compare the results of many studies, reported positive results, which were regarded as inconclusive and/or unconvincing, because they faced difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and the fact that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design.-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 19:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I see that the previous editor changed the sentence referring to the previous meta analyses t which are already included in the article. The statement referring to the recent metanalsyses was not changed.
This is the current version. Meta-analyses, which compare the results of many studies, face difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and the fact that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design.[13][14] However, a recent meta-analysis comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicines has shown that any effects are unlikely to be beyond that of placebo.[6]
And the proposed version.
Meta-analyses, which compare the results of many studies, reported positive results, which were regarded as inconclusive and/or unconvincing, because they faced difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and the fact that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design. However, a recent meta-analysis comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicines has shown that any effects are unlikely to be beyond that of placebo.[6]
Dont you think that the above is more consistent with the source ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.66.227.35 ( talk) 23:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
How about: Various publications using meta-analysis, a common approach to pooling the results of many studies, reported positive results from the use of homeopathy. Facing difficulty in controlling for publication bias and the flawed designs of the studies they analyzed, these reports were regarded as inconclusive and unconvincing. A 2005 meta-analysis published in the Lancet comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicine demonstrated that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from that of a placebo.[6] Ante lan talk 04:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually I did it. Thanks for your nice editing. Best.
I thought WP:Be_bold was a policy that applied to all pages, but apparently people who want to push quackery and suppress a factually correct article on the homoeopathy fraud get to create their own rules for this page only, like "don't make any edits whatsoever without posting them on the talk page to be pilloried by people who believe in magic first." Did I miss the announcement of this rule change? Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 04:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Is someone going to answer my question? Is this page part of Wikipedia and subject to the stated rules of Wikipedia, or have the homeopaths seceded from Wikipedia and started running this page as a fiefdom where they make whatever rules are beneficial to their pro-magic beliefs? Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 11:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I drop in on this page every once in a while, and it's striking to me how much the anti-homeopathic crowd insist on proclaiming once and for all that their view should be accepted as objective fact. There is so much opposition to homeopathy from entirely credible sources that it should suffice to explicitly state the references, but this doesn't seem adequate. All these shrill denunciasions, and the one from "Randy Blackamoor" almost seem comical. -- Leifern ( talk) 14:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Sigh.
-- Leifern ( talk) 14:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Without taking a stand on the particular edit in question, I want to say that I concur with Leifern's reading of Wikipedia policy. There is nothing in the policy referenced by Adam that suggests that the NPOV should ever be abandoned in favor of a SPOV. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. You can't get much clearer than that. If you think that SPOV is NPOV in a particular case, then you can make your argument using the terms of NPOV. If you think it is different, then you shouldn't be using it. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 16:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
At this point in time, there has been little progress in getting this article into a neutral article on a controversial subject. My position has been very clear. This article should not be promoting homeopathy, but it should also not present homeopathy as "inane" nonsense. There are numerous research studies that suggest that homeopathic effects are not merely attributable to placebo effects. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 18:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
This article is missing information about Hahnemann's development of homeopathic methods. Unless he drew it whole out of the ether, some further explanation is needed on this issue. What theoretical precursors helped him develop the system? Clarification here might provide a firmer footer for theoretical explanations of the system that, as stated now, seem unsupportable within known science. Naturezak ( talk) 20:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I shall compose and present here later a short para detailing the path Hahnemann took between 1783 and the first provings of 1790 and show his thinking and his methods and from which the 'homeopathic system' sprang forth. Peter morrell 07:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Peter, that sounds like a fine idea. The article now gives short shrift to the sources and precursors Hahnemann used. The history as given here implies that he conceived of the system out of the whole cloth after responding to Cullen's treatise. He however had many sources, and was not himself the original source the theory of medical similiars. An obvious place to start would be with the sources indicated in Emmans Dean, Michael (2001). "Homeopathy and "the progress of science"". History of science; an annual review of literature, research and teaching 39 (125 Pt 3): 255–83.:
Although Hahnemann’s sources are identified in everything he wrote, they have not been dealt with adequately by historians outside the homeopathic profession. For sources and precursors of the fundamental homeopathic principle, see Linn J. Boyd, A study of the simile in medicine (Philadelphia, 1936). For Hahnemann’s system as a whole, see: Harris Coulter, Divided legacy (II): The origins of modern Western medicine: J. B. Van Helmont to Claude Bernard (Washington, DC, 1977), 304–430. For an examination of the origins of Hahnemann’s research methods, pharmacology and disease theories, see: Michael E. Dean, “Homeopathy and alchemy: (1) A pharmacological gold standard”, The homeopath, no. 79 (2000), 22–27, and “Homeopathy and alchemy: (2) Contagion from miasms”, ibid., no. 80 (2001), 26–33. For subsequent influence on medicine, see: Harris Coulter, “Homoeopathic influences in nineteenth century allopathic therapeutics: A historical and philosophical study”, Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy, lxv (1972), 139–81, 207–44; Phillip A. Nicholls, Homoeopathy and the medical profession (London, 1988); John S. Haller, “Aconite: A case study in doctrinal conflict and the meaning of scientific medicine”, Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, lx (1984), 888–904; W. B. Fye, “Vasodilator therapy for angina pectoris: The intersection of homeopathy and scientific medicine”, Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, xlv (1990), 317–40. For Hahnemann’s use of within-patient placebo controls, see: Michael E. Dean, “A homeopathic origin for placebo controls: ‘An invaluable gift of God’”, Alternative therapies in health and medicine, vi (2000), 58–66, and subsequent debate: Michael E. Dean and Ted J. Kaptchuk, “Debate over the history of placebos in medicine”, Alternative therapies in health and medicine, vi (2000), 18–20.
The omission of these sources contributes to a non-NPOV perception that Hahnemann 'made it all up'. For that reason, I think a bit of information about his theoretical precursors would be helpful to the end of ensuring readers are not misled. Naturezak ( talk) 13:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Whoa! Hold on there, Bald Eagle! Yes it would all be fine and good to include all that stuff, but do you realise how long that would be? It would be a whole article in itself. I have so far written about 5 paragraphs about the origins of homeopathy, with little about his alleged precursors. It is not yet sourced and it only goes up to 1790. There is much left to add and then it needs sourcing. Perhaps you ask for too much. BTW some of those sources you mention are not ones I would use. I do not buy all that is written about his alleged precursors. Much of it is invented; dots joined up eagerly by non-historians on flimsy or non-existent evidence are hardly dots worth joining. If you follow. Hahnemann truly was a pioneer; there was little he had to go on. If he had so many so-called leads, then why did it take him about 20 years (c.1783-1801) to put it all together? Such a view simply doesn't stack up. More later on this forsure. Peter morrell 13:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I just put back the NPOV tag indicating that this article has a problem with neutrality. Within minutes, this was reverted with a comment "please engage in specific, constructive discussion instead of tagging". The problem is that I have been attempting to engage on this talk page since 6 December 2007 in specific, constructive discussion. I have given specific, constructive suggestions only to have homeopathy insulted as "inane" and specific research studies that I pointed to be mis-characterized as having conclusions that were not the very consclusions of the research that I quoted from the studies. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 01:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The article currently specifically highlights unfavourable studies, thus giving them undue weight. The neutrality tag specifically states not to remove it until consensus has been reached.
As I pointed out before, the article states: "The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible" as a statement of fact. I and other editors contend that NPOV standards require the statement to state: "Most scientists currently believe that the ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible". That is one example that I have pointed to that could easily be changed from POV to NPOV. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that "Most scientists believe..." is not neutral. Look at any other encyclopedia for examples how articles are written from a NPOV, with no indication in those articles what the personal opinions or beliefs of the editors of those articles are. That is how Wikipedia articles should be written, according to WP:NPOV.
As for the 1997 meta-analysis in Lancet, there is a very significant statement:
Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, et al (1997). "Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials". Lancet 350 (9081): 834–43. [3] Linde and colleagues analysed 89 trials and found a mean odds ratio of 2.45 (95% confidence interval, 2.05–2.93), in favor of homeopathy. When considering just those trials of “high quality” and after correcting for publication bias, the findings actually remained statistically significant. The main conclusion was that the results "were not compatible with the hypothesis that the effects of homoeopathy are completely due to placebo." Arion 3x3 ( talk) 05:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
You are confused I am afraid. First, Wikipedia is not the same as other encyclopediae. Second, neutrality of other encyclopediae is not the same as WP:NPOV. Read these policies. They state, "The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly" and "articles should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." That is, in the medical and scientific fields, what fraction of the practitioners subscribe to homeopathy? A teeny tiny fraction, from my observations. I can estimate it for you if you like, but I would wager it is quite small. Now, we have to present homeopathy in proportion to the prominence of both the homeopathy supporters, and the detractors. That means, the article should be 99% against homeopathy. Instead, it is 60% for homeopathy. So please stop complaining and move on to something else.-- Filll ( talk) 05:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
It's been my experience, having been involved in numerous contentious debates especially related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, that the predominant view on issues generally carry more weight when their source is clearly stated than when they are asserted as fact. Bald assertions about controversial subjects discredit the views. It's harder to write NPOV, but we so what? Homeopathy as it is practiced today relies on a conceptual foundation, a defined set of practices, and a huge compilation of literature. Clearly, all these things are disputed. But I think it would be to overstate the state of the controversy by characterizing all these controversies as finally settled. Art Carlson's quotes are telling - the journals that are examining the efficacy of homeopathy are very careful about phrasing what has been proven, disproven, etc. Why should we subscribe to a lower standard? And I agree with Arion 3x3, it is telling that the "anti" homeopathic crowd is clearly more militant than anyone else here. As a matter of personal disclosure, I don't know if homeopathy works or not, and I think the field should be subject to skeptical scrutiny, like everything else. But I have also found that medical science in general understands far less than they understand, so I prefer to maintain an open, but skeptical mind about everything I hear. -- Leifern ( talk) 14:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
You are being admirably fair, Art, scrupulously fair, I would say. Maybe folks should read this [4] new item a response to the 'homeophobes' like Ben Goldacre who never tires of disputing homeopathy at every turn on theoretical grounds. It might throw some new stuff to the surface for folks to chew at! Peter morrell 16:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing whatsoever disgusting or trivial here. It has nothing to do with homophobia; if you actually read the article above you will see what homeophobes means. It is their name NOT mine. It is a perfectly valid term & etymologically correct. Peter morrell 18:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I see no need for a NPOV tag here. Lobojo ( talk) 18:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I invite everyone to read from WP:NPOVD#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F: Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
We have had the assertion on this page that "the article should be 99% against homeopathy" and that is absolutely wrong. It should be 100% neutral, presenting both sides of the controversy without bias. I gave an example of 3 specific studies that indicated results that could not be attributed to placebo effects. The response that I received was that the results of the studies were not as I stated. Yet I copied and pasted directly from the abstracts of those studies. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 20:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with 100% neutral and I agree with undue weight too but i don't think the point of all this is to have it 99% negative towards homeopathy. First, any description of homeopathy itself should not judge. Second, how would it even be possible for describe what homeopaths think in 1% of the article. I interpret undue weight as purely a guide to ensuring there is not a preponderance of opinion against the conventional view, i.e. we need some balance that reflects reality, however it's not quantifiable. David D. (Talk) 21:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Some premises I think we should agree on:
-- Leifern ( talk) 21:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
By ignoring studies, some of them of apparently of high quality in reputable journals, reporting a positive effect of homeopathy, we are simply perpetuating the wrong impression that "science" has not found anything positive about homeopathy. Here is just one example of a scientific research study supporting homeopathy :
It's about time to stop claiming that there are no scientific research studies supporting homeopathy. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The Life Science foundation seems to conduct and publish research for and about homeopathic treatments. For example, they are investigating spin coupling of electrons. We laugh now, but breakthroughs may result. Sounds like voodoo science to me, but if I were alive at the time of Darwin, who would have thunk my cousin's a monkey? If they are part of the Life Science Research Foundation, they are doing peer reviewed research. [5]. Ra2007 ( talk) 22:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are 5 more research studies suggesting that homeopathy is not simply a "placebo effect":
Gibson and colleagues in Glasgow performed a double blind controlled trial of homeopathic treatment in rheumatoid arthritis patients with careful assessment of progress. There were only 23 patients in each group, both had full homeopathic interviews but one treated group received placebo instead of remedy. 19 showed improvement in the treatment group compared to 5 in the placebo group. p=0.001.
This problem was reduced using homeopathic Caulophyllum compared with placebo. Veterinary experiments carry much dramatic effect as the placebo effect is considered less operative. A QED BBC TV Documentary program showed one half of a herd of cows being protected against mastitis by the addition of a few drops of Phytolacca 30c to their drinking trough while the other half of the herd using a non-treated trough continued to have the problem.
A study by David Reilly and colleagues in Glasgow set out to determine whether they could find any evidence to support the hypothesis that placebo response fully explains the clinical response to homeopathy. They couldn't. The study was a double blind controlled trial of 30c homeopathic potencies of mixed grasses and pollens compared to placebo. The improvement was significant for the treated group who even exhibited an initial aggravation of symptoms as might be expected for a homeopathic response. The trial was well conducted and to a high standard.
Fisher and colleagues found a significant improvement in fibrositis cases in a rheumatology clinic using 6c potencies of Rhus tox. when those patients had the well known modalities of being worse when cold and better with continued movement. Previous studies had failed to show any difference but hadn't taken care to use the homeopathic indications for Rhus tox.
A follow-up study by David Reilly and colleagues in Glasgow to the hayfever study of 1986. The study was a double blind controlled trial of a 30c homeopathic potency of house dust mite compared to placebo. Of the 28 patients used 77% showed an improvement compared to only 33% showing an improvement with placebo. p=0.08. The trial was very well conducted and to a very high standard. The study was supervised by a consultant respiratory physician who recruited the patients for the study.
If you think I just happened to find these, and there are no others, I will be happy to provide you with dozens more. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I will try and help organize people's thoughts into one concise play. If you think this article doesn't meet the rigors of WP:NPOV, please state why below in succinct, clear language and - if at all possible - please provide a suggestion as to how we can improve the article to meet the NPOV guidelines. In all statements, please be a specific as possible, providing quotes and references whenever possible. If we keep our thoughts organized and clear, I am sure we can work our way through removing the NPOV tag. Remember, per WP:NPOVD#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F, the tag should remain in tact until there is a consensus here to remove it. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
.It is becoming very difficult to argue though, that the moderation of the discussion in this talk page is sound, according to the wikipedia rules and it does not try to preserve the current POV.Very difficult. Administrator Kurykh shouldn't you protect the under dispute tag as well?
Otherwhise you could be considered that you are taking the side of the current POV on Homeopathy. Justify please -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 01:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Just I had a quastion on why a wiki rule is not applied and wanted a clear answer. I thought administrators would be able to explain why but I was wrong. Or the rule has changed and I m not aware of it. Well. Whoever follows the discsussion can come to his/her own conclusion.
So do you think that the controversy ( appeared in major sourses ) in the 2005 lancet metanalyses should be presented in the article? yes or no? thanks
Okay, I don't care which version is protected. What I do want is for editors who think there is a need for the tag to please list specific examples from the existing article where they feel NPOV is being violated. If no specific and reasonable examples can be given, then I too agree that there is no need for the NPOV tag. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
1. The controversy which the lancet 2005 studies have caused is not presented. All the sourses and references are in the talk page.
2. There are metanalyses published showing positive for homeopathy which are not included and individual studies as well. Individual studies are included in the article but only these showing negative. Positive individual studies have been excluded since they are not ............metanalyses.( For the negatives this excuse does not apply.)
I suggest that better wording would be: "Skeptics maintain that the majority of scientific and clinical studies have not provided any clear support for the claims of homeopathy."
Since there is a considerable amount of homeopathic research that has been carried out in France and Germany, and most has not been translated into English, the facts may actually be quite different than this article currently portrays. There may actually be a majority of scientific and clinical studies that provide clear support for the claims of homeopathy. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
3. Resaerch on the memory of water not even mentioned ( besides beneviste) - again from reliable sources.Look above.
4. Basic Homeopathic opinions about metanalyses have been excluded.
all the sourses available to the curious editors who will look at the talk page above.
First suggestion (let's go one at a time):
would be better phrased:
Since I've offered numerous suggestions before, let's see if doing one sentence at a time will be more productive. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 04:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it worth pointing out that 74.73.146.241 is User:Sm565 evading his block? The connection is quite clear per this diff. [7] FWIW, I can't participate in any dispute resolution until 1) any and all sockpuppetry stops, and 2) specific suggestions on fixing the article are put forth (though I think Arion's section above could be a good start). Skinwalker ( talk) 07:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Arion 3x3, for a concrete suggestion to work with. Plausibility is by its nature a judgment call. What else could possibly be meant by "X is scientifically implausible" other than "Mainstream science considers X to be scientifically implausible"? I have no particular objection to your proposal, other than that it is wordier, but I also don't think it adds any information or clarity. I could also live with either "modern pharmaceutical knowledge" or "current pharmaceutical knowledge", but I think "modern" is better. What distinction are you trying to make? Presumably that "current" sounds like a fashion which is bound to change next year. While that is in principle possible, science generally builds on what has gone before, so I think "modern" is a better choice. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 08:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
There are very important reasons for the choice of the words:
(1) The current wording makes it appear as an absolute statement of fact, and makes it appear as if the article, and by extensin Wikipedia, is making critical POV statements against homeopathy. By clarifying who is making the statement, that changes it from a biased POV sentence to a NPOV sentence that is merely reporting on current mainstream scientific opinion.
(2) The use of "current" rather than "modern" makes it more of a statement of what the knowledge is, rather than subtlely implying that homeopathy belongs in the realm of "outdated" (not-modern) knowledge. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 12:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The version by Trystan for the sentence is an improvement over that which is currently in the article. However, I suggest that the second verb ("are") in the sentence be removed:
"The mechanisms proposed to be at work in homeopathic practice are regarded by mainstream science as implausible [1] and inconsistent with modern pharmaceutical knowledge. [6]" Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
"The mechanisms proposed to be at work in homeopathic practice are scientifically implausible[2] and incompatible with modern pharmaceutical knowledge.[42]" presents the scientific consesus appropriately assertively. Naturezak ( talk) 19:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
So let's recap some of the suggestions and everyone say which one they support. Feel free to support more than one. Let's just add supports and no opposes. If I am missing a version which you would like to add, please do so. This is not a vote, but merely a straw poll to see which versions we should be focusing our energies on. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:33, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why incompatibility with pharmaceutics would be at all relevant. Such a compatibility is not claimed, after all. The first half of the statement seems sufficient. Guido den Broeder ( talk) 22:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The reference cited at the end of the mention of "pharmaceutical", Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice? [8] states:
(1) "The supposed implausibility of homeopathy, which is based on the argument that very dilute substances (diluted beyond Avogadro's number) cannot have biological activity, has been investigated by a number of scientists. Basic science research appears to suggest that the use of extremely dilute solutions may not be as implausible as has been claimed."
(2) "high quality research shows that homeopathic preparations do have measurable effects on biological systems"
(3) "In contrast to findings by Kleijnen and Linde, a 2005 meta-analysis by Shang et al that was published in Lancet found that the efficacy of homeopathic treatment was no different than placebo. However, this study has been highly criticized for being methodologically flawed on many levels. Of particular concern, the researchers eliminated 102 of 110 homeopathic trials and based their conclusions on only the 8 largest high-quality trials without clearly identifying the criteria by which these trials were selected or the identity of these trials. Odds ratios calculated before the exclusions (on all 110 trials) do not support their ultimate conclusion that homeopathic interventions are no better than placebo."
Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I concede that I missed that sentence in the "Pharmacy Practice" article, and I have moved my support to the sentence that includes that concept. I hope everyone did not miss the 3 important points that article made about homeopathy, especially the real story about that 2005 Lancet study. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
'Opposed to' doe not necessarily imply incompatibility. Pharmacology concerns itself with the medical effects of substances, while homeopathy concerns itself with the medical effects of imprints. These are opposites, but could in theory be complementary. Guido den Broeder ( talk) 13:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I hope we are not heading towards a completely confused, obfuscated piece of crud. It appears to me that is what is going on. Also, we are introducing more and more material claiming that homeopathy has some substantial scientific backing, when it fact it has none. No reliable studies of efficacy. No theory behind it that makes any sense. And we seem to be removing real science. This I find extremely troubling, on a GA article. I have avoiding battling infinitely here on this article, but I really find this disturbing. So many people are just here to push a POV, which is at odds with the principles of Wikipedia. Wikipedia was designed to frame topics according to the mainstream. And how does mainstream science and medicine regard homeopathy? Use your heads people, or this article will be delisted, and degrade into a disaster.
Or maybe we should just revert to the version 6 or 10 months ago? Would you jokers prefer that? Or maybe just delete it completely? Good heavens...use some common sense. Wikipedia has rules. It is not here to promote your personal pet project or your personal career or business.-- Filll ( talk) 17:32, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I think you are not quite understanding my point. The policy of WP is: NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a
reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth doesn't mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority.
There were reported to be 3000 homeopaths in the US in 1996 [9]. This compares with about 1,000,000 physicians, dentists, veterinarians, optometrists etc [10] [11] (about 900,000 of these are physicians). So by this measure, homeopaths represent about 0.3% of the medical community. There are about 2,000,000 scientists in the US., and this implies that the number of homeopaths compared to the science and the medical community is tiny. Homeopathy, which purports to be a medical technique, and have some scientific basis, is therefore a minority position. Homeopathy, by any reasonable measure, is not prominent in the scientific community or in the medical profession.
So if Homeopathy is to be represented according to its prominence, it is less than a 1% position.
And if you talk about the positive evidence for homeopathy, this is produced only by cherry picking, as near as I can tell, after having looked at dozens and dozens of these "studies". I have not seen any objective evaluation let alone a scientific evaluation demonstrating any evidence for its efficacy at all. So if you can find some, sure it might be cited. But where is it?-- Filll ( talk) 18:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I was not aware that there was a large cadre of anti-astronauts, well-backed with government programs and money, and very prominent in the culture. I was not aware that the engineering and scientific peer-reviewed literature was full of studies and papers demonstrating that travel to the moon was impossible or unreasonable. Please direct me to this. I must have missed something.--
Filll (
talk)
19:18, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid it seems your biases will not allow you to understand the policy or to be able to address the question in a rational fashion. I would have expected nothing less, I am sorry to say. Too bad. You are just going to have to bang your head on a brick wall pointlessly I guess.--
Filll (
talk)
20:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not assuming anything negative about you. It is just an observation that you seem unable or unwilling to understand the policies that Wikipedia operates under currently, for your own personal reasons. And although I continue to
WP:AGF, I will note that one is not required to do once someone has exhibited behavior and attitudes antithetical to this. Again, WP policy. Better learn it if you want to play here, and engage in
WP:DE and argumentation in the face of policy and evidence.--
Filll (
talk)
21:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
1.“In proportion to the prominence of each” doesn’t mean or even imply that the supporter’s views ( of the described subject for example, homeopathy ) should not be fully and accurately stated (using notable sources) This could be equal to censoship and could make the article incomplete. The example of the flat earth does not apply here.
This is an article on Homeopathy not on Medicine of which homeopathy could ( or not ) be a branch.The analogue is different.
In an article on Homeopathy the editors must state homeopaths views and then criticize them.Obvious. The editors could use even more space to include the skeptical view but they should not exclude homeopathic views (the way they do now) using the excuse that the article should have a skeptical tone. Nobody can seriously argue that views recorded in notable major sources should be excluded in order to give to the article a skeptical tone ( which is by definition violates the NPOV).
Arguing all the time that homeopathic views recorded on notable sources should be excluded in an article on Homeopathy weakens and discredits the skeptical view which is needed in order to make the article balanced, complete. and finally interesting. Sceptics have many good points -so work on fully presenting and even expanding them in the article. Nobody will disagree with with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.146.241 ( talk • contribs)
2. I thought Art Carlson's comment was helpful in clarifying Wiki policies: Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. "great detail" for the subject of the article. "appropriate reference" for the majority view-- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 01:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Since you want to change Wikipedia policy, as near as I can determine, you are clearly on the wrong talk page.-- Filll ( talk) 22:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
(1) A great example of how an article about homeopathy can present both sides of the controversy without taking sides is the excellent NPOV article "Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice?" [12]
(2) There was an inaccurate claim made by Filll that there were no reliable studies of efficacy for homeopathy.
He asked for "objective evaluation" and "a scientific evaluation demonstrating any evidence for its efficacy" - so here it is.
These are positive results confirming the efficacy of homeopathy. As the saying goes: "Nobody is as blind as the one who does not want to see." Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Which "recent, best-controlled trials"? Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The definition(s) of a "good" study -let alone the "best"- has been controversial. I don't suggest that the Lancet 2005 Metanalyses should not be mentioned. I see though that they are the only ones which clearly state that homeopathy effect = placebo.Furhtermore they have been critisized for being biased and generally were regarded as controversial. This critisism and controversy -as I read- can be found in mainstream sources (BBC etc ). Its critics say that the writers did not mentioned what studies were included in the final analysis and other things but I m not really qualified to say if they have a point. Critisism and the study itself should be included though since they are so notable. -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 03:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
[15] [16] [17] The last one is a very interesting dialogue.-- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 03:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
My main point is though that editor's job here is not to judge the meta analyses themselves but to report what notable sources say about them. -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 06:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
To accomplish this we use the authors conclusions not ours conclusions for what they could have meant ( since this would be original research) To avoid interpetaions influced by our personal bias, we try to use their wording as much as we can. It is simple, effective, NOPV and it simplifies our digital life ( leaving more time for other healthy activities ).Right? -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 06:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Given all the above comments and new ideas, can we please now have a suggestion to vote on as to how the body text might be improved to accommodate these diverse views about trials and their interpretation? the wording does not have to be too radical but should ideally embrace all views. as before, can someone suggest 2 or 3 alternative wordings that we can all vote on and then we can implement the democratic changes chosen. thanks Peter morrell 07:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok admittedly I gave more time to my own arguments here but I still believe my asseessment of the opposition's arguments is accurate. To be fair though, reading this page, the opposing view only seems to be held by Arion 3x3 and Leifern and 74.73.146.241 and of course since 74.73.146.241 is not logging in we do not know his user account name. Maybe I missed someone but that's all I see.
It seems to me that much of the discussion concerns whether opposing sources (to the Lancet review and other meta-analyses) should be included at all so I think no change will have to be included on the vote list. Perhaps a few possible options are:
I would vote for 2, 4 and 5 but not for no change. Our primary aim here is to give greater balance. A balanced view has to say that yes these are the views of meta-analyses but the matter is still unresolved because individual studies and meta-analyses are interpreted differently by both sides: there seems to be cherry-picking and selectivity operating on both sides of the fence. How much that is a political or a scientific issue is open to debate but all of this should somehow get a mention in any rewording...IMHO thanks Peter morrell 08:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Since I didn't formally give my vote. I'm content with 1, 4, 5 and strongly opposed to 2. 5 seems like the best option to me as it allows the study meta-analytic procedures to be detailed so readers can make up their own mind. We should probably get some more votes on different approaches and hear some ideas for other approaches not listed before we nail down a specific wording. JamesStewart7 ( talk) 08:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, this is the paragraph that needs rewording: Various publications using meta-analysis, a common approach to pooling the results of many studies, reported positive results from the use of homeopathy. Facing difficulty in controlling for publication bias and the flawed designs of the studies they analyzed, these reports were regarded as inconclusive and unconvincing.[13][14] A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicine demonstrated that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.[6] When a few other folks have had their say, can someone please make some versions of the above for voting purposes? thanks
While we are at it, can I also point out that this sentence that follows the above has no supporting citation and maybe ? should be removed: Homeopaths are also accused of giving 'false hope' to patients who might otherwise seek effective conventional treatments. Unless it can be sourced, then this reads like a POV claim. thank you Peter morrell 13:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
My suggested rewording, in response to Peter Morrell's request for rewrites:
The authors of some meta-analyses report positive results from the use of homeopathy, but critics maintain that many of these studies are methodologically flawed.[13][14] A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet, of clinical trials comparing homeopathic remedies to conventional treatment, indicates that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.[6]
Of course, this is the sort of rewrite that should be happening in sandbox. Or shall we begin voting on even the smallest changes? Naturezak ( talk) 17:33, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks that seems fine to me. If you read further up, yes I know its a drag to do so, then you will see that small changes were requested for voting as a means to reach agreement. It seems a fine alternative to edit warring, don't you agree? Also, the idea was to split paragraphs down to sentences and reword them to the agreement of all. I can't see any big problem with such a genuinely democratic proposal. Regarding your comment about meta-analyses, again if you read above you will see that some studies were excluded from the meta-analyses so that it becomes a 'garbage in garbage out' scenario. Allegedly. Therefore, what was said is that the outcome of your meta-analysis is entirely dependent on what trials you put into it and the dispute concerns the trial ranges used by the two sides. One side claims that homeopathy shows above placebo responses and the other side shows no difference. For the sake of balance the proposal is to improve the wording of the paragraph to reflect these concerns. The proposal is NOT POV pushing or saying anything radical. It is designed to improve the text. I hope this clarifies. thank you Peter morrell 18:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a good idea Peter Morrell. This a good suggestion.I agree. I will post more later on. -- Radames1 ( talk) 20:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm having quite a bit of trouble following this talk page.
Given the rather heated and fast moving discussion, it makes it especially difficult to participate in a constructive way, as a lot of good points are getting lost and productive discussions getting muddled by later edits.-- Trystan ( talk) 17:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
User:74.73.146.241 has been blocked as an obvious reincarnation of User:Sm565/aka User:Orion4 evading his indef block. Hopefully the signal-to-noise ratio will rise as a result. I agree with Trystan, the methods that pro-homeopathy editors are using to present their case is very difficult to follow, and isn't going to lead to a resolution. Posting walls of text is not a good way to solve a problem. Skinwalker ( talk) 17:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
You might consider whether this WP:RS should be added to this article. Icy claim that water has memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthon01 ( talk • contribs) 04:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I see now that the material on Beneviste, which was summarized in this article, has been removed. Clearly, the POV warriors here have been on a course of action to destroy this article. Very interesting. I think this is spurring me to take action. Since people cannot act in a reasonable rational function and behave according to the rules of Wikipedia and
WP:NPOV, then we will have to have a response. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, frankly, to destroy a nice balanced article that was more than 50% pro-homeopathy, because you felt it was not pro enough. Sad, very sad...--
Filll (
talk)
15:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Homeopathic criticism of meta-analyses is that (a) these face difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and (b) that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design. Since JamesStewart7 has written "All the homeopaths I have heard are just pointing to "flawed design" without ever specifiying with this means." - I will again specify:
(1) Only when investigators chose to limit their analysis to large-scale studies in which primarily one homeopathic medicine was prescribed to every patient without the usual need for individualization of treatment common to quality homeopathic care did the statistical significance from homeopathic treatment vanish. While it is true that a single homeopathic medicine can sometimes be effective in the treatment of specific conditions, as observed in the Oscillococcinum trials in the treatment of influenza and influenza-like syndrome or Kali bichromicum in the treatment of people with COPD, this result is an exception to the rule.
(2) In this article's "Research on medical effectiveness" section there is the statement "'Systematic reviews conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial" followed by links to specific studies such as "Homeopathy for chronic asthma" [23]. In that very article, there is the very significant statement: "Standardised treatments in these trials are unlikely to represent common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised."
Unless JamesStewart7 and others understand that "common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised" means that there usually is no one specific homeopathic remedy that is used to treat a specific condition, then they will continue to miss the point. This key feature of homeopathy cannot be ignored in such trials, and those same flawed trials obviously cannot be used as an argument against homeopathic efficacy!
An encyclopedia article on homeopathy or any other subject should not be turned into a battleground of special interests seeking to have their own biased version prevail. As I have said before, this article must not be either a pro or anti homeopathy article, but a neutrally presented exposition of the subject, with opposing and supporting data presented in their own respective sections. It is also not the role of any editor here to PASS JUDGMENT on which research data passes their personal litmus test to qualify for inclusion in this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The majority view is that homeopathy is the purest crap, the biggest load of hooey on the planet and a vile cruel ugly dangerous hoax perpetuated by cranks, charlatans, crooks, and quacks. That is the majority view. By the rules of WP:NPOV, about 99% of the article should include material that supports this viewpoint. However, we were happy with 40% or so and allowed it to go through to GA. Now I see that POV warriors were not happy with their 60% and have attacked it and continue to attack it. Ok, so be it. The situation is clear and steps will have to be taken.-- Filll ( talk) 20:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Art, you seem to be going out of your way to avoid understanding. I have more than 6 times as many edits as you do, so I think I know a bit more about Wikipedia and its policies than you do. So do not presume to lecture me about it and think you can fool me.
Let's use our heads here, shall we?
Now that is pretty simple logic. If you dispute any of those, please provide peer-reviewed WP:RS sources backing up your position and claims. If you can convince me or any of the other more neutral editors that somehow homeopathy is more prominent than it appears to be, or that the allopathic view is different, then we might change our minds. Otherwise, we won't. Fair?
The crude estimates of "pro" and "con" that we went through before were because of whining of homeopaths that complained that how unfair it was to have an article that was only 60% pro-homeopathy. That is more than fair. And the whining and complaining appeared to be just pure BS. Nonsense. Ridiculous. It was not 50-50. It was more than half pro-homeopathy. And it is now headed well into the toilet, being further and further unbalanced, and more and more positive for homeopathy, and all dissent and evidence to the contrary deleted.
And the current march towards squelching all dissent and all science and all input from reason and rationality and statistics to promote the wonders of this fantastic cure known as homeopathy has to stop. This is not a commercial advertising venue. If you want to advertise homeopathy, buy a website. We will not be doing it here on Wikipedia.-- Filll ( talk) 22:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Well let's consider the alternate universe where what you propose are the principles and policies under which Wikipedia operates. In that universe, an article on
Holocaust denial, or even on the
Holocaust itself, might not mention all the existing historical and scholarly evidence that the Holocaust occurred. An article on the
9/11 Conspiracy Theory or even on the
9/11 Terrorist Attack might only discuss how this attack was an inside job, and never mention the evidence against this. An article on the
Moon Landing Hoax or even the
Moon Landing might only have material from conspiracy theorists, and contain no information whatsoever from regular news media or scientists. An article on
Cold Fusion might include no discussion of the failures of any other laboratories to reproduce the results of Pons and Fleishman. And on and on... The problem is, although eventually we might have good evidence for homeopathic efficacy, we do not have it now. And so, to bury any of the contrary evidence that homeopathy does not work or has no reason to work and has never been unequivocally shown to work in scientific tests does our readers a disservice. It turns this article from a rational objective document, to an instrument for the promotion of homepathy and to deceive our readers. This is not the proper and appropriate policy of any encyclopedia, and in particular, Wikipedia with its special policies. And to deny these, in the face of dozens if not hundreds of patient explanations and re-explanations, is to court negative consequences.--
Filll (
talk)
02:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Let's also remember that there is no such thing as "allopathic medicine"--that's a term for "real, scientific medicine" used by homeopaths, chiropractors, crystal-healers, and other charlatans, designed to equate the entirety of actual medicine with "just another opinion." Anyone who uses the term is crusading for an incorrect magical viewpoint and cannot be trusted to make good-faith or NPOV edits. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 03:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Radames1 ( talk) 06:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who wants a "criticism section" is not understanding the policies of Wikipedia. All this willfull fighting and arguing about the clear principles and policies of Wikipedia really is disappointing. Learn about Wikipedia before you start spilling nonsense on these talk pages. A criticism section violates WP:LEAD, WP:NPOV and several other WP policies. Template:Criticism-section indicates that criticism sections are frowned upon, according to the principles of Wikipedia. This even is reflected in statements of Jimbo. So if you want that to change the principles under which Wikipedia operates, you should go to one of the policy pages and endeavor to change the policy there. This is not the place to do it if that is your goal. You are on the wrong page if that is the case.-- Filll ( talk) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I want to add my opinion. I think that in an article about homeopathy, basic principles of homeopathy should be included and explained analytically. Not doing so is a violation of neutral point of view. (NPOV) Homeopathic doctors or supporter 's views of meta - analyses and criticisms should be included - if the sources are notable and serious. Otherwise the article will not be fair and objective.
I did not know this study about water memory. I have to look at it. But if it is published in a notable source and the article refers to the memory of water, it should be included. If there is criticism for this study it should be included it to.
I thought that critics of homeopathy want to include its views in order to expose them using scientific arguments. If homeopath' s arguments and counter criticism have no scientific basis, homeopathy will debunk itself. I suppose that will be an easy task for critics of Homeopathy. More later.-- Radames1 ( talk) 05:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
By the way Radames1, if you look a little deeper, that paper and a few others came out about water memory. This was then checked carefully by others and even the authors of that paper. No one could confirm it in more careful experiments. And everyone involved had their career destroyed, more or less because they had involved themselves with what is essentially a fraud.-- Filll ( talk) 16:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
“ | Such strongly critical or downright sarcastic or ironic stances do not appear entirely justified: the concept of the "memory of water" is no more than a metaphor denoting the hypothesis whereby the physicochemical properties of water can be modified by a solute and remain so for a certain period of time even in the absence of the solute itself. If this were true, biology and medicine would undergo not a revolution, but certainly a significant increase in knowledge and in the related applications. It is not a matter here of postulating an "entity" (memory) which may reside in the water, but of studying the physicochemical properties of water itself. In this sense, talking about memory is not so very different from talking about temperature, dielectric constants, viscosity, and other properties.
An example may serve to clarify the concept here: if we take a little water and put it in the freezer, after a certain period of time it will freeze. On removing the water from the freezer, it will be observed that the block of ice, though now exposed to room temperature, will remain a block of ice for some time. Thus, there exists in water a property which enables it to "remember" for a certain amount of time that it has been kept in the freezer. For those who find this example self-evident, we can give another: if we take a tape coated with ferric hydroxide and subject it, as it is running, to a series of differences in potential in precise succession, changes in charge occur on the magnetic substrate; the tape will remember those changes for hundreds of years. It is not the memory of water, in this case, but the memory of iron, which consists in a particular form that the magnetic substrate assumes on the tape. |
” |
— Paolo Bellavite, M.D. and Andrea Signorini, M.D., The Emerging Science of Homeopathy: Complexity, Biodynamics, and Nanopharmacology, 2002, pp.68-69 |
— Whig ( talk) 04:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The quote from Drs. Bellavite and Signorini is a good reminder that thermodynamics applies to water, though most people don't need this reminder. Their analogy is not very good with regards to homeopathic principles, however, and fails to convince me at all. If this requires explanation, I'll gladly spell it out. Also, for what it's worth, I fail to see how this long quotation in any way responds to Filll's initial point. Ante lan talk 06:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that Carlson's suggestion is the most balanced: "The policy on undue weight says "on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint". @Filll: what you say or what I could say about the memory of water do not count. Only what notable sources state count about the memory of water. So Rey study published in the reputable Physica A should be included.If you have any notable sources which criticize it please let us know ( Try to be more friendly next time - thanks )-- Radames1 ( talk) 06:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
This is pure nonsense. I am shocked the Beneviste affair was edited out of the article. I will continue to preach the value of science and reason, no matter what. And those of you who oppose science and reason will have to deal with the consenquences. There is no place for you here on Wikipedia.--
Filll (
talk)
15:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
No place for people who oppose science and reason on Wikipedia? But Wikipedia isn't about facts, it's about who can make up the most rules to benefit their side and who has the most time during the day to sit on a talk page screaming about their magical beliefs. When you start a project dedicated to proving that autistic teenage anime fans know more about any given topic than professors in the field, of course you're going to attract mostly crazy people who believe mostly crazy things. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 20:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Please lighten up, Filll, the Benveniste stuff went months ago after a disagreement I think instigated by one of your science buddies so it has nothing to do with so-called 'pro-homeopaths' as you have implied. It's months back; I suggested it should go back and I think Adam said no. So that was that; check the records and it is all there. There was disagrreement and it just never got put back in. It's no bigdeal; just put it back. Nobody is trying to chuck science or crit out of the article, please be a bit more reasonable. The atmosphere here has got very unpleasant of late. merry Xmas! Peter morrell 16:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Readers maybe interested in this new article published today in the UK [25] showing the UK government's plans to regulate Alt med. It also contains some interesting current data about alt med in the UK. Peter morrell 08:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and another! [26] Peter morrell 14:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to homeopathy and haven't done all my research yet. But the main article is clearly bias and should be re-written objectively. Another thing to think about is that there's lots of money in the phramaceutical industry, so whether homeopathic methods work or not they are going to try to supress it. Half of the negative comments on here are probably from people affiated with the pharm industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.145.185 ( talk) 18:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Smith Jones ( talk) 03:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
which does NOT justify the tactics used by Big Pharma to contorl and abuse dissidents. Smith Jones ( talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)Italic text Smith Jones ( talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
shang
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | → | Archive 30 |
Orange reports that there had been a consensus that this wording represents a NPOV; I wasn't objecting to the POV, but rather to the superfluity of the clause "and criticism" as a section heading. "Medican Analysis" does the job, as the critical aspect of that analysis is implied and manifest within the text. Naturezak ( talk) 20:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
The word analysis is fine by me. Peter morrell 07:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
agreed with orangemarlin. CONCLUSIONS--At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
"a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water"
I think that that number should be changed to 1060. -- 200.69.215.69 ( talk) 13:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It's supposedly a direct quote from Park. If we're going to quote him, we should quote him accurately, even if we think a different way of expressing his thoughts would be better. Otherwise we need to replace the quote with a paraphrase. Can someone find the source of the quote? I'm guessing it's his book Voodoo Science but don't have that handy. Raymond Arritt ( talk) 05:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
So where was this discussion? David D. (Talk) 12:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
<indent> But is it well known that large numbers foster any kind of understanding? To paraphrase one example of analogy I like: "A king once asked how long is eternity. His wisest advisor responded: Once every thousand years, a little bird sharpens his beak on a mountain made of diamond. When this activity has worn the mountain into a pebble, the first second of eternity will be over." He could have used numbers but would the king have been any wiser? David D. (Talk) 14:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
BTW please do not delete my comments agreed with orangemarlin. 'CONCLUSIONS--At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions' because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias.
thanks.-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
what was wrong with my last edit and I should be blocked ? (according to user orangemarlin) This is NOPV edit and supported by the already cited references. Who disagrees?
Meta-analyses, which compare the results of many studies, reported positive results, which were regarded as inconclusive and/or unconvincing, because they faced difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and the fact that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design.-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 19:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I see that the previous editor changed the sentence referring to the previous meta analyses t which are already included in the article. The statement referring to the recent metanalsyses was not changed.
This is the current version. Meta-analyses, which compare the results of many studies, face difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and the fact that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design.[13][14] However, a recent meta-analysis comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicines has shown that any effects are unlikely to be beyond that of placebo.[6]
And the proposed version.
Meta-analyses, which compare the results of many studies, reported positive results, which were regarded as inconclusive and/or unconvincing, because they faced difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and the fact that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design. However, a recent meta-analysis comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicines has shown that any effects are unlikely to be beyond that of placebo.[6]
Dont you think that the above is more consistent with the source ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.66.227.35 ( talk) 23:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
How about: Various publications using meta-analysis, a common approach to pooling the results of many studies, reported positive results from the use of homeopathy. Facing difficulty in controlling for publication bias and the flawed designs of the studies they analyzed, these reports were regarded as inconclusive and unconvincing. A 2005 meta-analysis published in the Lancet comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicine demonstrated that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from that of a placebo.[6] Ante lan talk 04:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually I did it. Thanks for your nice editing. Best.
I thought WP:Be_bold was a policy that applied to all pages, but apparently people who want to push quackery and suppress a factually correct article on the homoeopathy fraud get to create their own rules for this page only, like "don't make any edits whatsoever without posting them on the talk page to be pilloried by people who believe in magic first." Did I miss the announcement of this rule change? Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 04:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Is someone going to answer my question? Is this page part of Wikipedia and subject to the stated rules of Wikipedia, or have the homeopaths seceded from Wikipedia and started running this page as a fiefdom where they make whatever rules are beneficial to their pro-magic beliefs? Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 11:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I drop in on this page every once in a while, and it's striking to me how much the anti-homeopathic crowd insist on proclaiming once and for all that their view should be accepted as objective fact. There is so much opposition to homeopathy from entirely credible sources that it should suffice to explicitly state the references, but this doesn't seem adequate. All these shrill denunciasions, and the one from "Randy Blackamoor" almost seem comical. -- Leifern ( talk) 14:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Sigh.
-- Leifern ( talk) 14:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Without taking a stand on the particular edit in question, I want to say that I concur with Leifern's reading of Wikipedia policy. There is nothing in the policy referenced by Adam that suggests that the NPOV should ever be abandoned in favor of a SPOV. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. You can't get much clearer than that. If you think that SPOV is NPOV in a particular case, then you can make your argument using the terms of NPOV. If you think it is different, then you shouldn't be using it. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 16:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
At this point in time, there has been little progress in getting this article into a neutral article on a controversial subject. My position has been very clear. This article should not be promoting homeopathy, but it should also not present homeopathy as "inane" nonsense. There are numerous research studies that suggest that homeopathic effects are not merely attributable to placebo effects. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 18:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
This article is missing information about Hahnemann's development of homeopathic methods. Unless he drew it whole out of the ether, some further explanation is needed on this issue. What theoretical precursors helped him develop the system? Clarification here might provide a firmer footer for theoretical explanations of the system that, as stated now, seem unsupportable within known science. Naturezak ( talk) 20:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I shall compose and present here later a short para detailing the path Hahnemann took between 1783 and the first provings of 1790 and show his thinking and his methods and from which the 'homeopathic system' sprang forth. Peter morrell 07:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Peter, that sounds like a fine idea. The article now gives short shrift to the sources and precursors Hahnemann used. The history as given here implies that he conceived of the system out of the whole cloth after responding to Cullen's treatise. He however had many sources, and was not himself the original source the theory of medical similiars. An obvious place to start would be with the sources indicated in Emmans Dean, Michael (2001). "Homeopathy and "the progress of science"". History of science; an annual review of literature, research and teaching 39 (125 Pt 3): 255–83.:
Although Hahnemann’s sources are identified in everything he wrote, they have not been dealt with adequately by historians outside the homeopathic profession. For sources and precursors of the fundamental homeopathic principle, see Linn J. Boyd, A study of the simile in medicine (Philadelphia, 1936). For Hahnemann’s system as a whole, see: Harris Coulter, Divided legacy (II): The origins of modern Western medicine: J. B. Van Helmont to Claude Bernard (Washington, DC, 1977), 304–430. For an examination of the origins of Hahnemann’s research methods, pharmacology and disease theories, see: Michael E. Dean, “Homeopathy and alchemy: (1) A pharmacological gold standard”, The homeopath, no. 79 (2000), 22–27, and “Homeopathy and alchemy: (2) Contagion from miasms”, ibid., no. 80 (2001), 26–33. For subsequent influence on medicine, see: Harris Coulter, “Homoeopathic influences in nineteenth century allopathic therapeutics: A historical and philosophical study”, Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy, lxv (1972), 139–81, 207–44; Phillip A. Nicholls, Homoeopathy and the medical profession (London, 1988); John S. Haller, “Aconite: A case study in doctrinal conflict and the meaning of scientific medicine”, Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, lx (1984), 888–904; W. B. Fye, “Vasodilator therapy for angina pectoris: The intersection of homeopathy and scientific medicine”, Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, xlv (1990), 317–40. For Hahnemann’s use of within-patient placebo controls, see: Michael E. Dean, “A homeopathic origin for placebo controls: ‘An invaluable gift of God’”, Alternative therapies in health and medicine, vi (2000), 58–66, and subsequent debate: Michael E. Dean and Ted J. Kaptchuk, “Debate over the history of placebos in medicine”, Alternative therapies in health and medicine, vi (2000), 18–20.
The omission of these sources contributes to a non-NPOV perception that Hahnemann 'made it all up'. For that reason, I think a bit of information about his theoretical precursors would be helpful to the end of ensuring readers are not misled. Naturezak ( talk) 13:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Whoa! Hold on there, Bald Eagle! Yes it would all be fine and good to include all that stuff, but do you realise how long that would be? It would be a whole article in itself. I have so far written about 5 paragraphs about the origins of homeopathy, with little about his alleged precursors. It is not yet sourced and it only goes up to 1790. There is much left to add and then it needs sourcing. Perhaps you ask for too much. BTW some of those sources you mention are not ones I would use. I do not buy all that is written about his alleged precursors. Much of it is invented; dots joined up eagerly by non-historians on flimsy or non-existent evidence are hardly dots worth joining. If you follow. Hahnemann truly was a pioneer; there was little he had to go on. If he had so many so-called leads, then why did it take him about 20 years (c.1783-1801) to put it all together? Such a view simply doesn't stack up. More later on this forsure. Peter morrell 13:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I just put back the NPOV tag indicating that this article has a problem with neutrality. Within minutes, this was reverted with a comment "please engage in specific, constructive discussion instead of tagging". The problem is that I have been attempting to engage on this talk page since 6 December 2007 in specific, constructive discussion. I have given specific, constructive suggestions only to have homeopathy insulted as "inane" and specific research studies that I pointed to be mis-characterized as having conclusions that were not the very consclusions of the research that I quoted from the studies. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 01:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The article currently specifically highlights unfavourable studies, thus giving them undue weight. The neutrality tag specifically states not to remove it until consensus has been reached.
As I pointed out before, the article states: "The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible" as a statement of fact. I and other editors contend that NPOV standards require the statement to state: "Most scientists currently believe that the ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible". That is one example that I have pointed to that could easily be changed from POV to NPOV. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that "Most scientists believe..." is not neutral. Look at any other encyclopedia for examples how articles are written from a NPOV, with no indication in those articles what the personal opinions or beliefs of the editors of those articles are. That is how Wikipedia articles should be written, according to WP:NPOV.
As for the 1997 meta-analysis in Lancet, there is a very significant statement:
Linde K, Clausius N, Ramirez G, et al (1997). "Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials". Lancet 350 (9081): 834–43. [3] Linde and colleagues analysed 89 trials and found a mean odds ratio of 2.45 (95% confidence interval, 2.05–2.93), in favor of homeopathy. When considering just those trials of “high quality” and after correcting for publication bias, the findings actually remained statistically significant. The main conclusion was that the results "were not compatible with the hypothesis that the effects of homoeopathy are completely due to placebo." Arion 3x3 ( talk) 05:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
You are confused I am afraid. First, Wikipedia is not the same as other encyclopediae. Second, neutrality of other encyclopediae is not the same as WP:NPOV. Read these policies. They state, "The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly" and "articles should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." That is, in the medical and scientific fields, what fraction of the practitioners subscribe to homeopathy? A teeny tiny fraction, from my observations. I can estimate it for you if you like, but I would wager it is quite small. Now, we have to present homeopathy in proportion to the prominence of both the homeopathy supporters, and the detractors. That means, the article should be 99% against homeopathy. Instead, it is 60% for homeopathy. So please stop complaining and move on to something else.-- Filll ( talk) 05:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
It's been my experience, having been involved in numerous contentious debates especially related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, that the predominant view on issues generally carry more weight when their source is clearly stated than when they are asserted as fact. Bald assertions about controversial subjects discredit the views. It's harder to write NPOV, but we so what? Homeopathy as it is practiced today relies on a conceptual foundation, a defined set of practices, and a huge compilation of literature. Clearly, all these things are disputed. But I think it would be to overstate the state of the controversy by characterizing all these controversies as finally settled. Art Carlson's quotes are telling - the journals that are examining the efficacy of homeopathy are very careful about phrasing what has been proven, disproven, etc. Why should we subscribe to a lower standard? And I agree with Arion 3x3, it is telling that the "anti" homeopathic crowd is clearly more militant than anyone else here. As a matter of personal disclosure, I don't know if homeopathy works or not, and I think the field should be subject to skeptical scrutiny, like everything else. But I have also found that medical science in general understands far less than they understand, so I prefer to maintain an open, but skeptical mind about everything I hear. -- Leifern ( talk) 14:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
You are being admirably fair, Art, scrupulously fair, I would say. Maybe folks should read this [4] new item a response to the 'homeophobes' like Ben Goldacre who never tires of disputing homeopathy at every turn on theoretical grounds. It might throw some new stuff to the surface for folks to chew at! Peter morrell 16:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing whatsoever disgusting or trivial here. It has nothing to do with homophobia; if you actually read the article above you will see what homeophobes means. It is their name NOT mine. It is a perfectly valid term & etymologically correct. Peter morrell 18:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I see no need for a NPOV tag here. Lobojo ( talk) 18:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I invite everyone to read from WP:NPOVD#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F: Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
We have had the assertion on this page that "the article should be 99% against homeopathy" and that is absolutely wrong. It should be 100% neutral, presenting both sides of the controversy without bias. I gave an example of 3 specific studies that indicated results that could not be attributed to placebo effects. The response that I received was that the results of the studies were not as I stated. Yet I copied and pasted directly from the abstracts of those studies. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 20:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with 100% neutral and I agree with undue weight too but i don't think the point of all this is to have it 99% negative towards homeopathy. First, any description of homeopathy itself should not judge. Second, how would it even be possible for describe what homeopaths think in 1% of the article. I interpret undue weight as purely a guide to ensuring there is not a preponderance of opinion against the conventional view, i.e. we need some balance that reflects reality, however it's not quantifiable. David D. (Talk) 21:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Some premises I think we should agree on:
-- Leifern ( talk) 21:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
By ignoring studies, some of them of apparently of high quality in reputable journals, reporting a positive effect of homeopathy, we are simply perpetuating the wrong impression that "science" has not found anything positive about homeopathy. Here is just one example of a scientific research study supporting homeopathy :
It's about time to stop claiming that there are no scientific research studies supporting homeopathy. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The Life Science foundation seems to conduct and publish research for and about homeopathic treatments. For example, they are investigating spin coupling of electrons. We laugh now, but breakthroughs may result. Sounds like voodoo science to me, but if I were alive at the time of Darwin, who would have thunk my cousin's a monkey? If they are part of the Life Science Research Foundation, they are doing peer reviewed research. [5]. Ra2007 ( talk) 22:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are 5 more research studies suggesting that homeopathy is not simply a "placebo effect":
Gibson and colleagues in Glasgow performed a double blind controlled trial of homeopathic treatment in rheumatoid arthritis patients with careful assessment of progress. There were only 23 patients in each group, both had full homeopathic interviews but one treated group received placebo instead of remedy. 19 showed improvement in the treatment group compared to 5 in the placebo group. p=0.001.
This problem was reduced using homeopathic Caulophyllum compared with placebo. Veterinary experiments carry much dramatic effect as the placebo effect is considered less operative. A QED BBC TV Documentary program showed one half of a herd of cows being protected against mastitis by the addition of a few drops of Phytolacca 30c to their drinking trough while the other half of the herd using a non-treated trough continued to have the problem.
A study by David Reilly and colleagues in Glasgow set out to determine whether they could find any evidence to support the hypothesis that placebo response fully explains the clinical response to homeopathy. They couldn't. The study was a double blind controlled trial of 30c homeopathic potencies of mixed grasses and pollens compared to placebo. The improvement was significant for the treated group who even exhibited an initial aggravation of symptoms as might be expected for a homeopathic response. The trial was well conducted and to a high standard.
Fisher and colleagues found a significant improvement in fibrositis cases in a rheumatology clinic using 6c potencies of Rhus tox. when those patients had the well known modalities of being worse when cold and better with continued movement. Previous studies had failed to show any difference but hadn't taken care to use the homeopathic indications for Rhus tox.
A follow-up study by David Reilly and colleagues in Glasgow to the hayfever study of 1986. The study was a double blind controlled trial of a 30c homeopathic potency of house dust mite compared to placebo. Of the 28 patients used 77% showed an improvement compared to only 33% showing an improvement with placebo. p=0.08. The trial was very well conducted and to a very high standard. The study was supervised by a consultant respiratory physician who recruited the patients for the study.
If you think I just happened to find these, and there are no others, I will be happy to provide you with dozens more. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I will try and help organize people's thoughts into one concise play. If you think this article doesn't meet the rigors of WP:NPOV, please state why below in succinct, clear language and - if at all possible - please provide a suggestion as to how we can improve the article to meet the NPOV guidelines. In all statements, please be a specific as possible, providing quotes and references whenever possible. If we keep our thoughts organized and clear, I am sure we can work our way through removing the NPOV tag. Remember, per WP:NPOVD#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F, the tag should remain in tact until there is a consensus here to remove it. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
.It is becoming very difficult to argue though, that the moderation of the discussion in this talk page is sound, according to the wikipedia rules and it does not try to preserve the current POV.Very difficult. Administrator Kurykh shouldn't you protect the under dispute tag as well?
Otherwhise you could be considered that you are taking the side of the current POV on Homeopathy. Justify please -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 01:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Just I had a quastion on why a wiki rule is not applied and wanted a clear answer. I thought administrators would be able to explain why but I was wrong. Or the rule has changed and I m not aware of it. Well. Whoever follows the discsussion can come to his/her own conclusion.
So do you think that the controversy ( appeared in major sourses ) in the 2005 lancet metanalyses should be presented in the article? yes or no? thanks
Okay, I don't care which version is protected. What I do want is for editors who think there is a need for the tag to please list specific examples from the existing article where they feel NPOV is being violated. If no specific and reasonable examples can be given, then I too agree that there is no need for the NPOV tag. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
1. The controversy which the lancet 2005 studies have caused is not presented. All the sourses and references are in the talk page.
2. There are metanalyses published showing positive for homeopathy which are not included and individual studies as well. Individual studies are included in the article but only these showing negative. Positive individual studies have been excluded since they are not ............metanalyses.( For the negatives this excuse does not apply.)
I suggest that better wording would be: "Skeptics maintain that the majority of scientific and clinical studies have not provided any clear support for the claims of homeopathy."
Since there is a considerable amount of homeopathic research that has been carried out in France and Germany, and most has not been translated into English, the facts may actually be quite different than this article currently portrays. There may actually be a majority of scientific and clinical studies that provide clear support for the claims of homeopathy. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
3. Resaerch on the memory of water not even mentioned ( besides beneviste) - again from reliable sources.Look above.
4. Basic Homeopathic opinions about metanalyses have been excluded.
all the sourses available to the curious editors who will look at the talk page above.
First suggestion (let's go one at a time):
would be better phrased:
Since I've offered numerous suggestions before, let's see if doing one sentence at a time will be more productive. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 04:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it worth pointing out that 74.73.146.241 is User:Sm565 evading his block? The connection is quite clear per this diff. [7] FWIW, I can't participate in any dispute resolution until 1) any and all sockpuppetry stops, and 2) specific suggestions on fixing the article are put forth (though I think Arion's section above could be a good start). Skinwalker ( talk) 07:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Arion 3x3, for a concrete suggestion to work with. Plausibility is by its nature a judgment call. What else could possibly be meant by "X is scientifically implausible" other than "Mainstream science considers X to be scientifically implausible"? I have no particular objection to your proposal, other than that it is wordier, but I also don't think it adds any information or clarity. I could also live with either "modern pharmaceutical knowledge" or "current pharmaceutical knowledge", but I think "modern" is better. What distinction are you trying to make? Presumably that "current" sounds like a fashion which is bound to change next year. While that is in principle possible, science generally builds on what has gone before, so I think "modern" is a better choice. -- Art Carlson ( talk) 08:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
There are very important reasons for the choice of the words:
(1) The current wording makes it appear as an absolute statement of fact, and makes it appear as if the article, and by extensin Wikipedia, is making critical POV statements against homeopathy. By clarifying who is making the statement, that changes it from a biased POV sentence to a NPOV sentence that is merely reporting on current mainstream scientific opinion.
(2) The use of "current" rather than "modern" makes it more of a statement of what the knowledge is, rather than subtlely implying that homeopathy belongs in the realm of "outdated" (not-modern) knowledge. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 12:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The version by Trystan for the sentence is an improvement over that which is currently in the article. However, I suggest that the second verb ("are") in the sentence be removed:
"The mechanisms proposed to be at work in homeopathic practice are regarded by mainstream science as implausible [1] and inconsistent with modern pharmaceutical knowledge. [6]" Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
"The mechanisms proposed to be at work in homeopathic practice are scientifically implausible[2] and incompatible with modern pharmaceutical knowledge.[42]" presents the scientific consesus appropriately assertively. Naturezak ( talk) 19:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
So let's recap some of the suggestions and everyone say which one they support. Feel free to support more than one. Let's just add supports and no opposes. If I am missing a version which you would like to add, please do so. This is not a vote, but merely a straw poll to see which versions we should be focusing our energies on. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:33, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why incompatibility with pharmaceutics would be at all relevant. Such a compatibility is not claimed, after all. The first half of the statement seems sufficient. Guido den Broeder ( talk) 22:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The reference cited at the end of the mention of "pharmaceutical", Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice? [8] states:
(1) "The supposed implausibility of homeopathy, which is based on the argument that very dilute substances (diluted beyond Avogadro's number) cannot have biological activity, has been investigated by a number of scientists. Basic science research appears to suggest that the use of extremely dilute solutions may not be as implausible as has been claimed."
(2) "high quality research shows that homeopathic preparations do have measurable effects on biological systems"
(3) "In contrast to findings by Kleijnen and Linde, a 2005 meta-analysis by Shang et al that was published in Lancet found that the efficacy of homeopathic treatment was no different than placebo. However, this study has been highly criticized for being methodologically flawed on many levels. Of particular concern, the researchers eliminated 102 of 110 homeopathic trials and based their conclusions on only the 8 largest high-quality trials without clearly identifying the criteria by which these trials were selected or the identity of these trials. Odds ratios calculated before the exclusions (on all 110 trials) do not support their ultimate conclusion that homeopathic interventions are no better than placebo."
Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I concede that I missed that sentence in the "Pharmacy Practice" article, and I have moved my support to the sentence that includes that concept. I hope everyone did not miss the 3 important points that article made about homeopathy, especially the real story about that 2005 Lancet study. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
'Opposed to' doe not necessarily imply incompatibility. Pharmacology concerns itself with the medical effects of substances, while homeopathy concerns itself with the medical effects of imprints. These are opposites, but could in theory be complementary. Guido den Broeder ( talk) 13:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I hope we are not heading towards a completely confused, obfuscated piece of crud. It appears to me that is what is going on. Also, we are introducing more and more material claiming that homeopathy has some substantial scientific backing, when it fact it has none. No reliable studies of efficacy. No theory behind it that makes any sense. And we seem to be removing real science. This I find extremely troubling, on a GA article. I have avoiding battling infinitely here on this article, but I really find this disturbing. So many people are just here to push a POV, which is at odds with the principles of Wikipedia. Wikipedia was designed to frame topics according to the mainstream. And how does mainstream science and medicine regard homeopathy? Use your heads people, or this article will be delisted, and degrade into a disaster.
Or maybe we should just revert to the version 6 or 10 months ago? Would you jokers prefer that? Or maybe just delete it completely? Good heavens...use some common sense. Wikipedia has rules. It is not here to promote your personal pet project or your personal career or business.-- Filll ( talk) 17:32, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I think you are not quite understanding my point. The policy of WP is: NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a
reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth doesn't mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority.
There were reported to be 3000 homeopaths in the US in 1996 [9]. This compares with about 1,000,000 physicians, dentists, veterinarians, optometrists etc [10] [11] (about 900,000 of these are physicians). So by this measure, homeopaths represent about 0.3% of the medical community. There are about 2,000,000 scientists in the US., and this implies that the number of homeopaths compared to the science and the medical community is tiny. Homeopathy, which purports to be a medical technique, and have some scientific basis, is therefore a minority position. Homeopathy, by any reasonable measure, is not prominent in the scientific community or in the medical profession.
So if Homeopathy is to be represented according to its prominence, it is less than a 1% position.
And if you talk about the positive evidence for homeopathy, this is produced only by cherry picking, as near as I can tell, after having looked at dozens and dozens of these "studies". I have not seen any objective evaluation let alone a scientific evaluation demonstrating any evidence for its efficacy at all. So if you can find some, sure it might be cited. But where is it?-- Filll ( talk) 18:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I was not aware that there was a large cadre of anti-astronauts, well-backed with government programs and money, and very prominent in the culture. I was not aware that the engineering and scientific peer-reviewed literature was full of studies and papers demonstrating that travel to the moon was impossible or unreasonable. Please direct me to this. I must have missed something.--
Filll (
talk)
19:18, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid it seems your biases will not allow you to understand the policy or to be able to address the question in a rational fashion. I would have expected nothing less, I am sorry to say. Too bad. You are just going to have to bang your head on a brick wall pointlessly I guess.--
Filll (
talk)
20:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not assuming anything negative about you. It is just an observation that you seem unable or unwilling to understand the policies that Wikipedia operates under currently, for your own personal reasons. And although I continue to
WP:AGF, I will note that one is not required to do once someone has exhibited behavior and attitudes antithetical to this. Again, WP policy. Better learn it if you want to play here, and engage in
WP:DE and argumentation in the face of policy and evidence.--
Filll (
talk)
21:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
1.“In proportion to the prominence of each” doesn’t mean or even imply that the supporter’s views ( of the described subject for example, homeopathy ) should not be fully and accurately stated (using notable sources) This could be equal to censoship and could make the article incomplete. The example of the flat earth does not apply here.
This is an article on Homeopathy not on Medicine of which homeopathy could ( or not ) be a branch.The analogue is different.
In an article on Homeopathy the editors must state homeopaths views and then criticize them.Obvious. The editors could use even more space to include the skeptical view but they should not exclude homeopathic views (the way they do now) using the excuse that the article should have a skeptical tone. Nobody can seriously argue that views recorded in notable major sources should be excluded in order to give to the article a skeptical tone ( which is by definition violates the NPOV).
Arguing all the time that homeopathic views recorded on notable sources should be excluded in an article on Homeopathy weakens and discredits the skeptical view which is needed in order to make the article balanced, complete. and finally interesting. Sceptics have many good points -so work on fully presenting and even expanding them in the article. Nobody will disagree with with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.146.241 ( talk • contribs)
2. I thought Art Carlson's comment was helpful in clarifying Wiki policies: Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. "great detail" for the subject of the article. "appropriate reference" for the majority view-- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 01:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Since you want to change Wikipedia policy, as near as I can determine, you are clearly on the wrong talk page.-- Filll ( talk) 22:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
(1) A great example of how an article about homeopathy can present both sides of the controversy without taking sides is the excellent NPOV article "Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice?" [12]
(2) There was an inaccurate claim made by Filll that there were no reliable studies of efficacy for homeopathy.
He asked for "objective evaluation" and "a scientific evaluation demonstrating any evidence for its efficacy" - so here it is.
These are positive results confirming the efficacy of homeopathy. As the saying goes: "Nobody is as blind as the one who does not want to see." Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Which "recent, best-controlled trials"? Arion 3x3 ( talk) 03:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The definition(s) of a "good" study -let alone the "best"- has been controversial. I don't suggest that the Lancet 2005 Metanalyses should not be mentioned. I see though that they are the only ones which clearly state that homeopathy effect = placebo.Furhtermore they have been critisized for being biased and generally were regarded as controversial. This critisism and controversy -as I read- can be found in mainstream sources (BBC etc ). Its critics say that the writers did not mentioned what studies were included in the final analysis and other things but I m not really qualified to say if they have a point. Critisism and the study itself should be included though since they are so notable. -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 03:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
[15] [16] [17] The last one is a very interesting dialogue.-- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 03:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
My main point is though that editor's job here is not to judge the meta analyses themselves but to report what notable sources say about them. -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 06:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
To accomplish this we use the authors conclusions not ours conclusions for what they could have meant ( since this would be original research) To avoid interpetaions influced by our personal bias, we try to use their wording as much as we can. It is simple, effective, NOPV and it simplifies our digital life ( leaving more time for other healthy activities ).Right? -- 74.73.146.241 ( talk) 06:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Given all the above comments and new ideas, can we please now have a suggestion to vote on as to how the body text might be improved to accommodate these diverse views about trials and their interpretation? the wording does not have to be too radical but should ideally embrace all views. as before, can someone suggest 2 or 3 alternative wordings that we can all vote on and then we can implement the democratic changes chosen. thanks Peter morrell 07:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok admittedly I gave more time to my own arguments here but I still believe my asseessment of the opposition's arguments is accurate. To be fair though, reading this page, the opposing view only seems to be held by Arion 3x3 and Leifern and 74.73.146.241 and of course since 74.73.146.241 is not logging in we do not know his user account name. Maybe I missed someone but that's all I see.
It seems to me that much of the discussion concerns whether opposing sources (to the Lancet review and other meta-analyses) should be included at all so I think no change will have to be included on the vote list. Perhaps a few possible options are:
I would vote for 2, 4 and 5 but not for no change. Our primary aim here is to give greater balance. A balanced view has to say that yes these are the views of meta-analyses but the matter is still unresolved because individual studies and meta-analyses are interpreted differently by both sides: there seems to be cherry-picking and selectivity operating on both sides of the fence. How much that is a political or a scientific issue is open to debate but all of this should somehow get a mention in any rewording...IMHO thanks Peter morrell 08:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Since I didn't formally give my vote. I'm content with 1, 4, 5 and strongly opposed to 2. 5 seems like the best option to me as it allows the study meta-analytic procedures to be detailed so readers can make up their own mind. We should probably get some more votes on different approaches and hear some ideas for other approaches not listed before we nail down a specific wording. JamesStewart7 ( talk) 08:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, this is the paragraph that needs rewording: Various publications using meta-analysis, a common approach to pooling the results of many studies, reported positive results from the use of homeopathy. Facing difficulty in controlling for publication bias and the flawed designs of the studies they analyzed, these reports were regarded as inconclusive and unconvincing.[13][14] A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicine demonstrated that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.[6] When a few other folks have had their say, can someone please make some versions of the above for voting purposes? thanks
While we are at it, can I also point out that this sentence that follows the above has no supporting citation and maybe ? should be removed: Homeopaths are also accused of giving 'false hope' to patients who might otherwise seek effective conventional treatments. Unless it can be sourced, then this reads like a POV claim. thank you Peter morrell 13:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
My suggested rewording, in response to Peter Morrell's request for rewrites:
The authors of some meta-analyses report positive results from the use of homeopathy, but critics maintain that many of these studies are methodologically flawed.[13][14] A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet, of clinical trials comparing homeopathic remedies to conventional treatment, indicates that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.[6]
Of course, this is the sort of rewrite that should be happening in sandbox. Or shall we begin voting on even the smallest changes? Naturezak ( talk) 17:33, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks that seems fine to me. If you read further up, yes I know its a drag to do so, then you will see that small changes were requested for voting as a means to reach agreement. It seems a fine alternative to edit warring, don't you agree? Also, the idea was to split paragraphs down to sentences and reword them to the agreement of all. I can't see any big problem with such a genuinely democratic proposal. Regarding your comment about meta-analyses, again if you read above you will see that some studies were excluded from the meta-analyses so that it becomes a 'garbage in garbage out' scenario. Allegedly. Therefore, what was said is that the outcome of your meta-analysis is entirely dependent on what trials you put into it and the dispute concerns the trial ranges used by the two sides. One side claims that homeopathy shows above placebo responses and the other side shows no difference. For the sake of balance the proposal is to improve the wording of the paragraph to reflect these concerns. The proposal is NOT POV pushing or saying anything radical. It is designed to improve the text. I hope this clarifies. thank you Peter morrell 18:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a good idea Peter Morrell. This a good suggestion.I agree. I will post more later on. -- Radames1 ( talk) 20:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm having quite a bit of trouble following this talk page.
Given the rather heated and fast moving discussion, it makes it especially difficult to participate in a constructive way, as a lot of good points are getting lost and productive discussions getting muddled by later edits.-- Trystan ( talk) 17:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
User:74.73.146.241 has been blocked as an obvious reincarnation of User:Sm565/aka User:Orion4 evading his indef block. Hopefully the signal-to-noise ratio will rise as a result. I agree with Trystan, the methods that pro-homeopathy editors are using to present their case is very difficult to follow, and isn't going to lead to a resolution. Posting walls of text is not a good way to solve a problem. Skinwalker ( talk) 17:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
You might consider whether this WP:RS should be added to this article. Icy claim that water has memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthon01 ( talk • contribs) 04:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I see now that the material on Beneviste, which was summarized in this article, has been removed. Clearly, the POV warriors here have been on a course of action to destroy this article. Very interesting. I think this is spurring me to take action. Since people cannot act in a reasonable rational function and behave according to the rules of Wikipedia and
WP:NPOV, then we will have to have a response. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, frankly, to destroy a nice balanced article that was more than 50% pro-homeopathy, because you felt it was not pro enough. Sad, very sad...--
Filll (
talk)
15:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Homeopathic criticism of meta-analyses is that (a) these face difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and (b) that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design. Since JamesStewart7 has written "All the homeopaths I have heard are just pointing to "flawed design" without ever specifiying with this means." - I will again specify:
(1) Only when investigators chose to limit their analysis to large-scale studies in which primarily one homeopathic medicine was prescribed to every patient without the usual need for individualization of treatment common to quality homeopathic care did the statistical significance from homeopathic treatment vanish. While it is true that a single homeopathic medicine can sometimes be effective in the treatment of specific conditions, as observed in the Oscillococcinum trials in the treatment of influenza and influenza-like syndrome or Kali bichromicum in the treatment of people with COPD, this result is an exception to the rule.
(2) In this article's "Research on medical effectiveness" section there is the statement "'Systematic reviews conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial" followed by links to specific studies such as "Homeopathy for chronic asthma" [23]. In that very article, there is the very significant statement: "Standardised treatments in these trials are unlikely to represent common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised."
Unless JamesStewart7 and others understand that "common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised" means that there usually is no one specific homeopathic remedy that is used to treat a specific condition, then they will continue to miss the point. This key feature of homeopathy cannot be ignored in such trials, and those same flawed trials obviously cannot be used as an argument against homeopathic efficacy!
An encyclopedia article on homeopathy or any other subject should not be turned into a battleground of special interests seeking to have their own biased version prevail. As I have said before, this article must not be either a pro or anti homeopathy article, but a neutrally presented exposition of the subject, with opposing and supporting data presented in their own respective sections. It is also not the role of any editor here to PASS JUDGMENT on which research data passes their personal litmus test to qualify for inclusion in this article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The majority view is that homeopathy is the purest crap, the biggest load of hooey on the planet and a vile cruel ugly dangerous hoax perpetuated by cranks, charlatans, crooks, and quacks. That is the majority view. By the rules of WP:NPOV, about 99% of the article should include material that supports this viewpoint. However, we were happy with 40% or so and allowed it to go through to GA. Now I see that POV warriors were not happy with their 60% and have attacked it and continue to attack it. Ok, so be it. The situation is clear and steps will have to be taken.-- Filll ( talk) 20:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Art, you seem to be going out of your way to avoid understanding. I have more than 6 times as many edits as you do, so I think I know a bit more about Wikipedia and its policies than you do. So do not presume to lecture me about it and think you can fool me.
Let's use our heads here, shall we?
Now that is pretty simple logic. If you dispute any of those, please provide peer-reviewed WP:RS sources backing up your position and claims. If you can convince me or any of the other more neutral editors that somehow homeopathy is more prominent than it appears to be, or that the allopathic view is different, then we might change our minds. Otherwise, we won't. Fair?
The crude estimates of "pro" and "con" that we went through before were because of whining of homeopaths that complained that how unfair it was to have an article that was only 60% pro-homeopathy. That is more than fair. And the whining and complaining appeared to be just pure BS. Nonsense. Ridiculous. It was not 50-50. It was more than half pro-homeopathy. And it is now headed well into the toilet, being further and further unbalanced, and more and more positive for homeopathy, and all dissent and evidence to the contrary deleted.
And the current march towards squelching all dissent and all science and all input from reason and rationality and statistics to promote the wonders of this fantastic cure known as homeopathy has to stop. This is not a commercial advertising venue. If you want to advertise homeopathy, buy a website. We will not be doing it here on Wikipedia.-- Filll ( talk) 22:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Well let's consider the alternate universe where what you propose are the principles and policies under which Wikipedia operates. In that universe, an article on
Holocaust denial, or even on the
Holocaust itself, might not mention all the existing historical and scholarly evidence that the Holocaust occurred. An article on the
9/11 Conspiracy Theory or even on the
9/11 Terrorist Attack might only discuss how this attack was an inside job, and never mention the evidence against this. An article on the
Moon Landing Hoax or even the
Moon Landing might only have material from conspiracy theorists, and contain no information whatsoever from regular news media or scientists. An article on
Cold Fusion might include no discussion of the failures of any other laboratories to reproduce the results of Pons and Fleishman. And on and on... The problem is, although eventually we might have good evidence for homeopathic efficacy, we do not have it now. And so, to bury any of the contrary evidence that homeopathy does not work or has no reason to work and has never been unequivocally shown to work in scientific tests does our readers a disservice. It turns this article from a rational objective document, to an instrument for the promotion of homepathy and to deceive our readers. This is not the proper and appropriate policy of any encyclopedia, and in particular, Wikipedia with its special policies. And to deny these, in the face of dozens if not hundreds of patient explanations and re-explanations, is to court negative consequences.--
Filll (
talk)
02:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Let's also remember that there is no such thing as "allopathic medicine"--that's a term for "real, scientific medicine" used by homeopaths, chiropractors, crystal-healers, and other charlatans, designed to equate the entirety of actual medicine with "just another opinion." Anyone who uses the term is crusading for an incorrect magical viewpoint and cannot be trusted to make good-faith or NPOV edits. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 03:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Radames1 ( talk) 06:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who wants a "criticism section" is not understanding the policies of Wikipedia. All this willfull fighting and arguing about the clear principles and policies of Wikipedia really is disappointing. Learn about Wikipedia before you start spilling nonsense on these talk pages. A criticism section violates WP:LEAD, WP:NPOV and several other WP policies. Template:Criticism-section indicates that criticism sections are frowned upon, according to the principles of Wikipedia. This even is reflected in statements of Jimbo. So if you want that to change the principles under which Wikipedia operates, you should go to one of the policy pages and endeavor to change the policy there. This is not the place to do it if that is your goal. You are on the wrong page if that is the case.-- Filll ( talk) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I want to add my opinion. I think that in an article about homeopathy, basic principles of homeopathy should be included and explained analytically. Not doing so is a violation of neutral point of view. (NPOV) Homeopathic doctors or supporter 's views of meta - analyses and criticisms should be included - if the sources are notable and serious. Otherwise the article will not be fair and objective.
I did not know this study about water memory. I have to look at it. But if it is published in a notable source and the article refers to the memory of water, it should be included. If there is criticism for this study it should be included it to.
I thought that critics of homeopathy want to include its views in order to expose them using scientific arguments. If homeopath' s arguments and counter criticism have no scientific basis, homeopathy will debunk itself. I suppose that will be an easy task for critics of Homeopathy. More later.-- Radames1 ( talk) 05:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
By the way Radames1, if you look a little deeper, that paper and a few others came out about water memory. This was then checked carefully by others and even the authors of that paper. No one could confirm it in more careful experiments. And everyone involved had their career destroyed, more or less because they had involved themselves with what is essentially a fraud.-- Filll ( talk) 16:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
“ | Such strongly critical or downright sarcastic or ironic stances do not appear entirely justified: the concept of the "memory of water" is no more than a metaphor denoting the hypothesis whereby the physicochemical properties of water can be modified by a solute and remain so for a certain period of time even in the absence of the solute itself. If this were true, biology and medicine would undergo not a revolution, but certainly a significant increase in knowledge and in the related applications. It is not a matter here of postulating an "entity" (memory) which may reside in the water, but of studying the physicochemical properties of water itself. In this sense, talking about memory is not so very different from talking about temperature, dielectric constants, viscosity, and other properties.
An example may serve to clarify the concept here: if we take a little water and put it in the freezer, after a certain period of time it will freeze. On removing the water from the freezer, it will be observed that the block of ice, though now exposed to room temperature, will remain a block of ice for some time. Thus, there exists in water a property which enables it to "remember" for a certain amount of time that it has been kept in the freezer. For those who find this example self-evident, we can give another: if we take a tape coated with ferric hydroxide and subject it, as it is running, to a series of differences in potential in precise succession, changes in charge occur on the magnetic substrate; the tape will remember those changes for hundreds of years. It is not the memory of water, in this case, but the memory of iron, which consists in a particular form that the magnetic substrate assumes on the tape. |
” |
— Paolo Bellavite, M.D. and Andrea Signorini, M.D., The Emerging Science of Homeopathy: Complexity, Biodynamics, and Nanopharmacology, 2002, pp.68-69 |
— Whig ( talk) 04:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The quote from Drs. Bellavite and Signorini is a good reminder that thermodynamics applies to water, though most people don't need this reminder. Their analogy is not very good with regards to homeopathic principles, however, and fails to convince me at all. If this requires explanation, I'll gladly spell it out. Also, for what it's worth, I fail to see how this long quotation in any way responds to Filll's initial point. Ante lan talk 06:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that Carlson's suggestion is the most balanced: "The policy on undue weight says "on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint". @Filll: what you say or what I could say about the memory of water do not count. Only what notable sources state count about the memory of water. So Rey study published in the reputable Physica A should be included.If you have any notable sources which criticize it please let us know ( Try to be more friendly next time - thanks )-- Radames1 ( talk) 06:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
This is pure nonsense. I am shocked the Beneviste affair was edited out of the article. I will continue to preach the value of science and reason, no matter what. And those of you who oppose science and reason will have to deal with the consenquences. There is no place for you here on Wikipedia.--
Filll (
talk)
15:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
No place for people who oppose science and reason on Wikipedia? But Wikipedia isn't about facts, it's about who can make up the most rules to benefit their side and who has the most time during the day to sit on a talk page screaming about their magical beliefs. When you start a project dedicated to proving that autistic teenage anime fans know more about any given topic than professors in the field, of course you're going to attract mostly crazy people who believe mostly crazy things. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 20:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Please lighten up, Filll, the Benveniste stuff went months ago after a disagreement I think instigated by one of your science buddies so it has nothing to do with so-called 'pro-homeopaths' as you have implied. It's months back; I suggested it should go back and I think Adam said no. So that was that; check the records and it is all there. There was disagrreement and it just never got put back in. It's no bigdeal; just put it back. Nobody is trying to chuck science or crit out of the article, please be a bit more reasonable. The atmosphere here has got very unpleasant of late. merry Xmas! Peter morrell 16:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Readers maybe interested in this new article published today in the UK [25] showing the UK government's plans to regulate Alt med. It also contains some interesting current data about alt med in the UK. Peter morrell 08:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and another! [26] Peter morrell 14:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to homeopathy and haven't done all my research yet. But the main article is clearly bias and should be re-written objectively. Another thing to think about is that there's lots of money in the phramaceutical industry, so whether homeopathic methods work or not they are going to try to supress it. Half of the negative comments on here are probably from people affiated with the pharm industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.145.185 ( talk) 18:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Smith Jones ( talk) 03:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
which does NOT justify the tactics used by Big Pharma to contorl and abuse dissidents. Smith Jones ( talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)Italic text Smith Jones ( talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
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was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).