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Jpgordon and others evidently continue to insist on reverting all citations to IHR, with one line of "argument" being that empirical research supports a logically necessary conclusion as opposed to a merely empirical conclusion, such that any need for further inquiry or examination of the particular circumstances of the citation is unnecessary. The other line of argument appeals to the WP:RS policy on "extremist and fringe sources" (which is rather surprising given that that particular policy explicitly allows exceptions to a no cite policy (e.g. when "those claims have also been published by reliable sources")).
If we assume that IHR is "extremist and fringe" by supposing that it declares in bold on the top of its webpage that the number of Holocaust victims is zero, then if we also accept that "mainstream" and reliable sources consider the number of Holocaust victims to be 6 million, it seems to me that considering just historical accuracy, the Nizkor Project, which declares in bold on the top of its webpage that the number of victims is 12 million, is equally "extremist and fringe". Both contentions are equally "lies", if that's the sort of language that is appropriate. Why, in that case, wouldn't the "no cite" policy apply to both? Is historical accuracy not, in fact, the real issue here? Looking at an article on Nizkor.org that's cited multiple times on Wikipedia (and this Talk page), the article says the claim of an unnamed "denier" that "The four million figure at Auschwitz was a widely held notion" is "clearly false". Yet the Auschwitz Museum itselfdescribes the "figure of 4,000,000 Auschwitz victims" as "widely-circulated", and, furthermore, "was often cited in the literature over several postwar decades". That isn't the only point on which the Nizkor article is contradicted by the Auschwitz Museum article, either.
I'm not claiming here that Nizkor.org is necessarily unreliable (although I will readily admit to believing that the Auschwitz Museum's website is likely more reliable). Unlike Jpgordon et al, I don't believe necessary inferences can be drawn from contingent evidence; - I'd rather look at things on a case by case basis than make sweeping generalizations about a website's reliability. But, it being clear that my citing IHR would start a revert war, and with the reverter remaining unwilling to discuss such reversion, I am curious as to whether any reversion, or even just a "reliable source?" note, on my part of Nizkor's headline claim that there were "12 million Holocaust victims who suffered and died" (or less featured claims cited to nizkor.org) would provoke a revert war. What, exactly, are the parameters here? To what extent does don't question how unreliable the bad guys are extend to don't question how reliable the good guys are? In sum, it remains unclear just how far the dismissal of inquiry and investigation extends. Perhaps it is still possible to get some consensus re this nizkor.org issue, if not re the ihr.org issue. Bdell555 ( talk) 15:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Wiki's "Reliable Sources" have been proven to be anything but reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.134.207 ( talk) 03:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Just the fact that the Jewish people claim they are God's "Chosen Ones" should raise many RED flags on anything they say, especially since God is a myth too and CANNOT BE PROVEN to have said anything ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.134.207 ( talk) 03:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
There can never be any reasoned analysis of the Holocaust because IT NEVER HAPPENED and it is MAKE-BELIEVE, and I'm Jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.134.207 ( talk) 03:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
this page is extemely biased. instead of going into details of why holocaust deniers/revionists believe what they believe, it instead discredits them. no matter what your personal beliefs on this subject is, they should have a fair say. its not like they are asking for another holocaust to occur, they are asking for a real, provable truth on this. which is understandable and respectable. 72.89.79.140 ( talk) 06:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is riven with bias against holocaust denial. Wikipedia is a place to go for reasoned analysis of topical subjects. It confounds me that it was even nominated as a 'good article'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Walkerb ( talk • contribs) 02:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
it's because these ideas are generaly frowned upon. i do agree that all article should be un-biased, no matter how distasteful the subject matter is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.226.101 ( talk) 14:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
there should be a support for holocaust revisionism or denial as many editors insist on it being called in addition to criticism. Both a critcism and support page for these ideas should exist, with each side arguing against, debunking, or critically examining the arguments of the other to present a MORE COMPLETE picture of holocaust revisionism/denial. Of course third party sources as well as other wikirules should apply. I humbly submit that in certain historical contexts, it was once (and may still be) thought blasphemous, unfaithful, and downright evil to believe the world was round or that minorities deserved equal rights or that abortion should be a right of all women. Not that holocaust revisionism/denial is anything approaching 100% correct - but that if a notable debate exists, it should be documented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.230.2 ( talk) 17:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Is it the case that as soon as a scholar (self-professed or otherwise) or institution (like IHR) begins to question or undermine certain parameters like the the 5-6 million figure that they become ostracized and disreputable? If the flat-earth society majority discredits and ignores any dissent as unreliable, untrustworthy, unscientific, etc. does that mean that wikipedia should not have an entry about those institutions or persons' views (no matter how incorrect they may be) even if those views are published, numerous, noteworthy, and relevant to the article? For example look at the page on Intelligent Design in wikipedia - although "scientific consensus" appears to stand against "creation science" - and the article definatively and clearly expresses this point numerous times, there is also a page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design_movement that explores (in detail) the viewpoints and positions of the supporters. For example this passage - "Though not all intelligent design proponents are theistic or motivated by religious fervor, the majority of the principal intelligent design advocates (including Michael Behe, William Dembski, Jonathan Wells, and Stephen C. Meyer) are Christians and have stated that in their view the intelligent designer is clearly God. The response of intelligent design proponents to critics and media who discuss their religious motivations has been to cite it as proof of bias and part of a hostile agenda. The Discovery Institute provided the conservative Accuracy in Media a file of complaints about the way their representatives have been treated by the media, especially by National Public Radio." Perhaps a Holocaust Revisionist/Denial page? Although I believe information in the parent to begin with is necessary about documenting the "movement/group/whathaveyou." Still I feel that a "Support for Holocaust Revisionism/Denial" section to this article would immediately be taken down - is this incorrect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.230.2 ( talk) 17:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
As an objective reader who is still curious about holocaust denial, I wanted to make the tone of the page more objective, so I started with the introduction, editing some subjective quantifying words such as "generally" as well as adding the claim that "a sizeable minority believe the holocaust revisionists."
I do not believe everything the revisionists say. For example, I don't believe that the holocaust is a jewish lie. Although as a skeptic of history, I reserve judgment on any controversy. That the holocaust happened to millions of jews at the hands of the nazis in death camps is something I put quite a bit of faith in.
I did want to improve the integrity of this article, since this area of historical debate consists of quite a bit of feces-flinging and I believe that by using more truthful and objective terms, the holocaust deniers can be made to look more fanatic.
Please let me insert my edits. I am not doing this to be anti-semitic, but rather to improve the objective language of this article and to add a valuable point - that some 20% of americans doubt the holocaust. This point has currencey for all who are interested in holocaust denial - the deniers, defenders and the genuinely interested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Circuitcheckr ( talk • contribs) 16:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
In what sense is the entire article encyclopaedic? Any one desirous of learning about the corpus of Holocaust denial/revisionism is met with a bank of criticism of said subject. Shouldn't this be reserved for the "Criticism of Holocaust denial" article? what's the point of two articles if they both have the same purpose? If the goal of WP is to inform, this article falls far short of it. It does not allow the reader to examine the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 04:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
It should be logical that if the article is about Holocaust revisionism/denial then it should cover the subject thoroughly without editorializing. Or, it should be about the PHENOMENON of Holocaust denial, which is clearly delusional, and should be labeled as such. Or, the majority of the article should be played "straight," from the viewpoint of the proponents, with a smaller section on criticism. The Bigfoot article, for example, spends more time dispensing with the notion of a Sasquatch than it does describing one. Of course, there is virtually no evidence available to discuss on Bigfoot/Sasquatch. However, concerning the Holocaust there is a vast body of evidence. This article needs to make clear at the outset that its purpose is absolutely to condemn Holocaust denial and that it sees no compelling need to treat the subject the slightest bit seriously, since it is inherently and inalterably false. Then it wouldn't be POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 14:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
So under that rubric the name of the article should be "Holocaust denial phenomenon" or "Study of Holocaust denial." For example, the article on Portland cement is about its use, technology, application, etc., not about whether people disagree with Portland cement. I'd say that is more the model that should be used for a good WP article. For example, the WP article on witchcraft is largely about witchcraft, pure and simple, even though the majority of the world doesn't believe in it or even condemns it. That might be another model for this article, because as it stands now it is basically POV, which you haven't even bothered to dispute. I don't have much more to say to you or anyone who posts terse, dismissive responses. Please put mre effort into this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 15:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. It would seem that pre-deciding that it's pseudohistory is itself POV, but, as you point out, virtually all legitimate scholars have one point of view. I should point out that they are "legitimate" because largely they are on the government payroll in various countries and wouldn't have a job if they engaged in major revisions, such as re-examination of the often conflicting and at times impossible testimonial evidence. More importantly, why doesn't this article discuss the legitimate revisions that have already taken place since the Nuremberg trials? The Auschwitz museum has reduced the number of dead estimate from 4 million to 1.5. Dachau no longer claims that the gas chamber was used for killing. Unfortunately, now I have to leave off for several days as I am going camping. I'll check back.
The reason I don't make any additions to the article is that I have done so in the past and they have been swiftly reversed. It might help if the category of Pseudohistory were clearly demarcated near the top of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 17:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I personally can not remain silent to this. This article is grossly biased it is far to opinionated to be an adequate example. There is evidence to support both sides and because one chooses to investigate the other does not make them anti-semitic its not a hatred its a passion for investigating how something really happened. Further more should this not be a catergory of the holocaust article it is after all related to the holocaust and is a very important topic that should be considered with even the basics examinations into the subject. I would also say I put myself in this Holocaust revisionist category hell I do not say it does not happen but that it was grossly exagerated I do not believe the proof can be one hundred percent valid either. If all these people died... how did such a large number of them remain to flee into other countries? They did not just come out of no where. Further more why does this seem so incredibly descriminatory against people who investigate the subject. It is to grossly one sided and I know I am typing things that have been said before but how can I not when we have this plainly offensive article? Yes bad things happen but why is it so important to say they happened exactly how they happened its similar to the catholic churchs reaction to all those emerging sects. Little arguements and disputes lead to instability and what not but does not most people agree a more tolerant outlook is better then a hard blocked wall? Come now this is a place where facts and theories should be layed down without biased analysed surely and true many of these denials have been proven wrong but that is not reason to sway on the whole subject entirely things need to be questioned. Please try not to discredit people who have put so much effort into checking the numbers and the statistics. This... article almost made me feel sick. I thought wiki was the one place that would look at controversal topics in a sensible sense rather then taking sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KnivesFF7 ( talk • contribs) 13:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I realise that many anti-semitic consider such a notion to be valid, but i still can not understand why the denial of Holocaust leads to the logical conclusion to term it as anti-semitic? Lets take an example. There are people who consider that their own government could be responsible for the events that lead to and occured in September 11, 2001. Now i realize that these people may be labeled as consipiracy theorists by some, yet the taught might not occur to those "some" to consider these people to be terrorist or supporters of terrorism. Is it because their search for the truth appears genuine and even perhaps bordering an obsession, that we may simply label them as consipiracy theorists and not go further and say that since they are denying the "truth", <<they can only be doing that for one and only one reason alone, to support the terrorist>> ? I realize that most likely, people who could entertain the notion; Holocaust to be non exsistant, or perhaps in lesser magnitude, are considered anti-semitic's, people who perhaps even consider themselves anti-semitic. But there should be a distinction between what individuals consider and what groups of people consider. Can't a person who is not anti-semitic be able to consider such a notion? There are people whose purpose is the search for the truth. If they consider their own reasearch, which leads them to consider the magnitude of the Holocaust to be questionable, are these people too placed in the same booth as those who deny wholly that the event occured? Will we label them aswell as anti-semitic? Then offcourse we have those who question everything, just to question everything because for them its all a "big conspiracy". We may realize that they could be just misguided by their own reasoning abilities, but we would not go as far to label such people who have spesific agenda to target a spesific group, a hateful act. Now it may be unclear, and things might start to get blurry. I must admit i myself am now uncertain where i am heading with this, maybe the reader may be able help me clearify my own thoughts! (It is irrelevant if i consider Holocaust to have occured or not. I only wish to understand why Holocaust denial is considered anti-semitic) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.88.188.231 ( talk) 18:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
"... holocaust denial claims imply or openly state that ... Jewish conspiracy' is surely unfair. Holocaust denial in general may be due to misinformation, belief in a conspiracy by other groups, or any number of other possibilities - let us not forget the number of Jews who were themselves victims due to the fact that, like most people of the time, they could not believe that the ongoing genocide was really happening - simply because normal people find it hard to swallow that man could commit such inhumanity to man. This may be naive, but it is not due to any flaw of character. To me, the really dangerous anti-Semite is surely not the duped disbeliever but the ardent supporter of the Holocaust. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew schaug ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Just what I was going to post. I think this can be classified as not neutral/bias? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.191.224 ( talk) 13:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg, Please stop undoing my relatively trivial edits, removing references to the inherent "Antisemitism" of this theory. The article at large (and title thereof) more than states the commonly held belief that this is a "denial" of "truth". That said, taking into consideration the concession that the word "denial" belongs in the title, there is no need to label this theory as "antisemitic" in the introductory paragraph. The cited source is POV and does not belong in an encyclopedic account of this theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.171.71.135 ( talk • contribs) 01:44, August 19, 2008
I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT WHY IS THAT A PERSON WHO DENIES THE SHOAH( HOLOCAUST) IS IMMEDIATLY LABELLED ANTISEMITIC SURELY A PERSON CAN DENY WHAT THEY LIKE, THE HOLOCAUST I THINK NEEDS A VERY SERIOUS REVISION 17:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys,
While I don't want to side with the Holocaust deniers, I do think there is a valid point in saying that the assertion "Holocaust denial is antisemitic" is an opinion rather than a fact. Any evaluation of a phenomenon as being of a particular nature necessarily involves a subjective value judgment. Thus, the assertion needs to be sourced as being the majority opinion rather than asserted as unassailable truth. That means, it is not sufficient to assert "HD is antisemitic" but, instead, we should assert something like "the overwhelming majority of group X characterizes HD as antisemitic". And then find a reliable source who says exactly that. To be pedantic, no number of sources that say "HD is antisemitic" is adequate sourcing for the assertion "the overwhelming majority of group X characterizes HD as antisemitic". We must find a source that says it explicitly. Even better would be someone who backs up the assertion with a quantitative survey of reliable sources such as historians. -- Richard ( talk) 19:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
If you think millions of Jews have deliberately lied about the holocaust you are, by definition, an antisemite.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
some people deny the existence of this talk section, apparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.209.3 ( talk) 18:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
"Among the evidence produced was film and stills that showed the existence of prisoner camps, as well as the testimony of those freed when the camps were entered."
This statement is not really valid argument unless someone knows of films and stills which the Soviets produced (though some might be skeptical of such). The article later notes that Rassinier was in Buchenwald and cites this as a basis for arguing that he therefore would not have seen extermination camps. But at the time Rassinier began writing there were many claims going around in the public domain which asserted that Buchenwald and all of the camps in the west had been death camps. This was one of the motives for Rassinier's decision to entertain revisionist ideas. Now the only films and stills which I've ever run across are those taken in the west at not only Buchenwald but also Dachau and Bergen-Belsen. These were not extermination camps and so films from such do not count as evidence (and the article tacitly recognizes this when commenting on Rassinier). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.137.134 ( talk) 03:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I found a passage attributed Andrew Mathis which says:
"Holocaust denial constitutes a conspiracy theory, and how the theory is distinctly American..."
Anyone familiar with revisionist literature will be aware that the major bulk of it very definitely does not come either from America or even in the English language. Italy has been the source of the major revisionist work in the last couple decades. Before that France had begun as the country from which the major revisionist efforts were being written. Simply by comparing who has produced what one will have to acknowledge that the USA has generally lagged behind such European countries in revisionist literature. While it's OK to quote whatever Mathis chooses to say, it should be clarified for the reader's benefit that most modern revisionism is distinctly Italian and all of it from the beginning has been distinctly European. That's not an issue of a POV, it's just what follows from a cursory check on the main revisionist literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.20 ( talk) 11:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Does this Wikipedia inform about the Italian revisionism? Xx236 ( talk) 10:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
He admitted he was wrong or missunderstood. To be notable one shoud have an opinion about the subject. Xx236 ( talk) 07:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC) According to [1] Ion Coja, Radu Theodoru, Albert Szabo, István Csurka are notorious deniers. They don't have their articles here. Xx236 ( talk) 09:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Category:Holocaust deniers includes 84 people. Why some of them are listed, the others aren't? Xx236 ( talk) 09:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Try Google "Ion Coja", you will find his "Holocaust in Romania ?", in English. He is known in Israel. He is a member of university staff. Dariusz Ratajczak is a night warden. Xx236 ( talk) 09:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
A notable denialist is a person, who denies the Holocaust. A person who quotes other denialists and later says Sorry, I forgot to declare that I was quoting is a coward, a conformist, maybe even an idiot, but not a notable denialist. If you loose your wallet, someone catches the wallet, you shout - It's mine, and the person returns your wallet - is he/she a notable thief? I doubt very much.
Dariusz Ratajczak has been nominated a notable denialist by media. This reminds me the novel The Lost Honour of Katharina Blum.
You are responsible when you quote - both Ratajczak and you in the same way. Don't tell me later I was only quoting BBC or NYT, I didn't know the subject.
I haven't found any English language text by Ratajaczak but there are many Ratajczak-experts here. Xx236 ( talk) 13:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(←)Xx236, I wonder if, when we're using the word notable, we're talking about the same thing? On Wikipedia, notable simply means there's enough published information in existence for us to write a decent article that's a distillation of reliable secondary sources. Outside Wikipedia, notable is often used to mean famous. The information about Dariusz Ratajczak on Wikipedia is certainly well-sourced enough to meet our definition of notability, even though he may not otherwise be especially famous (or infamous!). As Lebob-BE has said, the fact that people you regard as more well-known Holocaust deniers aren't on the list doesn't mean they aren't notable too - it just means that no-one has written an article about them yet. EyeSerene talk 12:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
You act as post-colonialists, you impose your image of my world. I don't like to be a post-slave, even if the masters from BBC or NYT are somtimes generous. Xx236 ( talk) 14:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
this is a misquote. what david irving said is that more people died on the backseat of Ted Kennedy's care that went into the river at Chappaquiddick than died in "that" gas chamber, referring to the gas chamber at Auschwitz which was reconstructed after the war. "that" gas chamber didnt kill anyone. here is the video that clarifies Irving's remarks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n8FlkiWLKA
this quote needs to be reworded. any suggestions? Statesboropow ( talk) 03:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
what better source than david irving himself being interviewed and the words straight from the mans mouth? Statesboropow ( talk) 17:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
that has got to be the dumbest thing i have ever heard. now you tell david irving what he thinks? i think he is a very smart, articulate man. and if he is so crazy, they wouldnt put him in jail. 72.45.61.254 ( talk) 03:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
i'd be willing to bet that it couldnt be shown that david irving has ever lied about anything he has written about. he has over 30 books to his credit and anyone who has seen him talk can ttell that he is very well educated on the story of Nazi Germany. and at the end of the day, all he is doing is giving his opinion on an historical event. and for that he has been jailed, threatened and god knows what else. if Wikipedia was forced by law to profess a certain opinion i am sure you'd be in an uproar about it. Statesboropow ( talk) 03:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
i cant believ that you and i agree that jailing people for holocaust "denial" is stupid. i am done on this issue. just thought it could be improved. Statesboropow ( talk) 04:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Am I to assume from what I'm reading here that there exists Wikipedia rules that effectively implies certain newspapers' articles take precedent over video footage of the same event? If so, then who decided which newspapers (and hence ALL of its articles and journalists past, present and future) are considered reliable, and on what detailed analysis did they base this on? -- Angryjames ( talk) 12:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I have corrected the quote, changing it to the words spoken in the interview cited in the opening post (it occurs at 6.20 approx.). They are the actual words of Irving, so I don't understand Lebob-BE objection against using it. The original version of the quote was also not accurate when compared against the cited German source (the article by Karl Pfeifer) - the quote in that source is almost word-for-word the same as that given in Irving's interview. Quotations have to be accurate, if they are not then they shouldn't be presented as quotations. Meowy 01:23, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Tried to edit a simple typo and could not find it amid the blizzard of notes. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 23:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
mentions only the jewish victims. if more than just jewish victims died, then isnt denying the Holocaust also a denial of the non-Jewish victims? Statesboropow ( talk) 03:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
no. and i havent seen anything that would lead me to believe that anyone who talks about the holocaust cares to share the misery with anyone other than the jewish victims. i have heard over and over again "six million jews". yes, the jews suffered, but so did a lot of others, and right along side of the Jewish souls too. it may be seen as a silly example, but watch "Dead Man Walking" with Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon and there is only mention of the Jews. i know that innocent jews died and suffered greatly as a people. but i am angered when only their suffering is mentioned. sorry if that offends you. Statesboropow ( talk) 05:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
well jpgordon, who are you to tell me to go away? why dont you go away? the holocaust wasnt a uniquely jewish experience and i think people resent that. i know i do. maybe the article can be revised to be a little more fair? Statesboropow ( talk) 03:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
holocaust "denial", if there is such a thing, cant be about the Jews when they only make up 55% of the victims. 72.45.61.254 Statesboropow ( talk) 03:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC) 03:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
This is a very interesting point. Deniers (for want of a better term) put forward precisely this argument. It is undeniable that the term "Holocaust" carries considerable weight and that no equivalent term that includes all casualties (or other casualties) exists. It is also the cause of much resentment which fuels the denier argument. The fact remains that for whatever reasons (and there are many good reasons) the term "Holocaust" exists and means what it does. What is perhaps more interesting for the denier argument is that the term is, as I understand it, a fairly modern concoction. I don't believe the Wiki entry for it states the origins of the word, nor the time period in which it was first introduced. -- Angryjames ( talk) 10:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
All I need is a quote showing that he has personally dedicated to any of the numbers (below 5 mil) he cites, and I will stop removing him from the list. forestPIG (grunt) 17:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Last time I looked his thesis was not available in English. I guess he now finds it an embarassment, but the title is a strong indicator as to the content and various people quote its content. There are a lot of russian speakers in Israel so Israeli information is likely to be accurate.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 21:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Well Lipstadt is right that the list is very Euro-centric. It probably should include more non-Europeans... I guess Abbas is more of a former denier than a present one. But he is important.
Abbas is 'important' because what? it paints a Palestenian leader as what anti-semitic? Fact is he does not deny the holocaust. He questions whether the facts around it are used for poltical purposes related to Israel - the editing of this article is good example of that. The Iranian leader falls in the same boat but I wouldnt attempt to argue about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.232.135 ( talk) 15:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Telaviv1 (
talk)
13:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
This whole article is so heavily tied up that it will never achieve being truly neutral, but one can hope.
While historical revisionism is the re-examination of accepted history, with an eye towards updating it with newly discovered, more accurate, or less-biased information, deniers seek evidence to support a preconceived theory, omitting substantial facts.
(Do I have to explain why that is... problematic? It's well-sourced, but it claims what is ultimately a value judgement as fact, and is a broad generalization of a group.)
I don't dare change it, lest I be spat upon from both sides of the gallery.
All I ask is that someone who lurks around here takes a look at this and really thinks about it, especially considering the intrinsic value of the words, and tone. 24.205.50.170 ( talk) 22:37, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I took a crack at simplifying and cleaning up this article. There's still a long way to go. There are many statements are that not well supported by the sources, and there was a lot of material which was tangential to the overall article. One of the biggest problems is that the overall structure of the article is that hideous amounts of text are submerged in footnotes. Much is simply redundant -- it is unnecessary to quote verbatim from every source. Also, the extensive source quotes actually obsure the article sources, because they are submerged in the textual quotations. Large amounts of material could be moved to other articles, and for David Irving I did so. There were also a number of statements like "so and so, Holocaust denier, claimed Holocaust did not happen". I changed a lot of those to just "so and so said Holocaust did not happened." I think that sufficient given the overall completely irrefutable prove of the Holocaust. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 05:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Not talking about the nazi-KKK photo ... the whole article must be canceled and rewritten, it's so disappointing. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tetox (
talk •
contribs)
00:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
— Tetox ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I rewrote the first three sections, that is, I left the text intact, joined up a paragraph or two. Mainly I cut out all the quotations from the sources and reworked the citation format so the can be more readily identified by future editors. I also combined a large number of duplicative citations, many of which had duplicate quotations as well. I printed out this article before this edit and it was 30 pages long, far too much of which was consumed by the footnote quotations. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 03:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
NO!!!!! THE RIGHT TRANSLATION IS ON THE WEB: On voit peut-être mieux ce que signifie cetteméthode historique: elle dans notre société de représentation et de spectacle, une tentative d'extermination sur le papier qui relaie l'extermination réelle and the translation of the translater in English [5] (the paragraph On the revisionist method at the end of it after point 8) It will perhaps now be better perceived what such a historical method signifies: in our spectacle-oriented society, it is an attempt at extermination on paper that pursues in another register the actual work of extermination. José Fontaine ( talk) 11:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
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Jpgordon and others evidently continue to insist on reverting all citations to IHR, with one line of "argument" being that empirical research supports a logically necessary conclusion as opposed to a merely empirical conclusion, such that any need for further inquiry or examination of the particular circumstances of the citation is unnecessary. The other line of argument appeals to the WP:RS policy on "extremist and fringe sources" (which is rather surprising given that that particular policy explicitly allows exceptions to a no cite policy (e.g. when "those claims have also been published by reliable sources")).
If we assume that IHR is "extremist and fringe" by supposing that it declares in bold on the top of its webpage that the number of Holocaust victims is zero, then if we also accept that "mainstream" and reliable sources consider the number of Holocaust victims to be 6 million, it seems to me that considering just historical accuracy, the Nizkor Project, which declares in bold on the top of its webpage that the number of victims is 12 million, is equally "extremist and fringe". Both contentions are equally "lies", if that's the sort of language that is appropriate. Why, in that case, wouldn't the "no cite" policy apply to both? Is historical accuracy not, in fact, the real issue here? Looking at an article on Nizkor.org that's cited multiple times on Wikipedia (and this Talk page), the article says the claim of an unnamed "denier" that "The four million figure at Auschwitz was a widely held notion" is "clearly false". Yet the Auschwitz Museum itselfdescribes the "figure of 4,000,000 Auschwitz victims" as "widely-circulated", and, furthermore, "was often cited in the literature over several postwar decades". That isn't the only point on which the Nizkor article is contradicted by the Auschwitz Museum article, either.
I'm not claiming here that Nizkor.org is necessarily unreliable (although I will readily admit to believing that the Auschwitz Museum's website is likely more reliable). Unlike Jpgordon et al, I don't believe necessary inferences can be drawn from contingent evidence; - I'd rather look at things on a case by case basis than make sweeping generalizations about a website's reliability. But, it being clear that my citing IHR would start a revert war, and with the reverter remaining unwilling to discuss such reversion, I am curious as to whether any reversion, or even just a "reliable source?" note, on my part of Nizkor's headline claim that there were "12 million Holocaust victims who suffered and died" (or less featured claims cited to nizkor.org) would provoke a revert war. What, exactly, are the parameters here? To what extent does don't question how unreliable the bad guys are extend to don't question how reliable the good guys are? In sum, it remains unclear just how far the dismissal of inquiry and investigation extends. Perhaps it is still possible to get some consensus re this nizkor.org issue, if not re the ihr.org issue. Bdell555 ( talk) 15:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Wiki's "Reliable Sources" have been proven to be anything but reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.134.207 ( talk) 03:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Just the fact that the Jewish people claim they are God's "Chosen Ones" should raise many RED flags on anything they say, especially since God is a myth too and CANNOT BE PROVEN to have said anything ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.134.207 ( talk) 03:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
There can never be any reasoned analysis of the Holocaust because IT NEVER HAPPENED and it is MAKE-BELIEVE, and I'm Jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.134.207 ( talk) 03:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
this page is extemely biased. instead of going into details of why holocaust deniers/revionists believe what they believe, it instead discredits them. no matter what your personal beliefs on this subject is, they should have a fair say. its not like they are asking for another holocaust to occur, they are asking for a real, provable truth on this. which is understandable and respectable. 72.89.79.140 ( talk) 06:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is riven with bias against holocaust denial. Wikipedia is a place to go for reasoned analysis of topical subjects. It confounds me that it was even nominated as a 'good article'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Walkerb ( talk • contribs) 02:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
it's because these ideas are generaly frowned upon. i do agree that all article should be un-biased, no matter how distasteful the subject matter is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.226.101 ( talk) 14:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
there should be a support for holocaust revisionism or denial as many editors insist on it being called in addition to criticism. Both a critcism and support page for these ideas should exist, with each side arguing against, debunking, or critically examining the arguments of the other to present a MORE COMPLETE picture of holocaust revisionism/denial. Of course third party sources as well as other wikirules should apply. I humbly submit that in certain historical contexts, it was once (and may still be) thought blasphemous, unfaithful, and downright evil to believe the world was round or that minorities deserved equal rights or that abortion should be a right of all women. Not that holocaust revisionism/denial is anything approaching 100% correct - but that if a notable debate exists, it should be documented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.230.2 ( talk) 17:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Is it the case that as soon as a scholar (self-professed or otherwise) or institution (like IHR) begins to question or undermine certain parameters like the the 5-6 million figure that they become ostracized and disreputable? If the flat-earth society majority discredits and ignores any dissent as unreliable, untrustworthy, unscientific, etc. does that mean that wikipedia should not have an entry about those institutions or persons' views (no matter how incorrect they may be) even if those views are published, numerous, noteworthy, and relevant to the article? For example look at the page on Intelligent Design in wikipedia - although "scientific consensus" appears to stand against "creation science" - and the article definatively and clearly expresses this point numerous times, there is also a page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design_movement that explores (in detail) the viewpoints and positions of the supporters. For example this passage - "Though not all intelligent design proponents are theistic or motivated by religious fervor, the majority of the principal intelligent design advocates (including Michael Behe, William Dembski, Jonathan Wells, and Stephen C. Meyer) are Christians and have stated that in their view the intelligent designer is clearly God. The response of intelligent design proponents to critics and media who discuss their religious motivations has been to cite it as proof of bias and part of a hostile agenda. The Discovery Institute provided the conservative Accuracy in Media a file of complaints about the way their representatives have been treated by the media, especially by National Public Radio." Perhaps a Holocaust Revisionist/Denial page? Although I believe information in the parent to begin with is necessary about documenting the "movement/group/whathaveyou." Still I feel that a "Support for Holocaust Revisionism/Denial" section to this article would immediately be taken down - is this incorrect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.230.2 ( talk) 17:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
As an objective reader who is still curious about holocaust denial, I wanted to make the tone of the page more objective, so I started with the introduction, editing some subjective quantifying words such as "generally" as well as adding the claim that "a sizeable minority believe the holocaust revisionists."
I do not believe everything the revisionists say. For example, I don't believe that the holocaust is a jewish lie. Although as a skeptic of history, I reserve judgment on any controversy. That the holocaust happened to millions of jews at the hands of the nazis in death camps is something I put quite a bit of faith in.
I did want to improve the integrity of this article, since this area of historical debate consists of quite a bit of feces-flinging and I believe that by using more truthful and objective terms, the holocaust deniers can be made to look more fanatic.
Please let me insert my edits. I am not doing this to be anti-semitic, but rather to improve the objective language of this article and to add a valuable point - that some 20% of americans doubt the holocaust. This point has currencey for all who are interested in holocaust denial - the deniers, defenders and the genuinely interested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Circuitcheckr ( talk • contribs) 16:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
In what sense is the entire article encyclopaedic? Any one desirous of learning about the corpus of Holocaust denial/revisionism is met with a bank of criticism of said subject. Shouldn't this be reserved for the "Criticism of Holocaust denial" article? what's the point of two articles if they both have the same purpose? If the goal of WP is to inform, this article falls far short of it. It does not allow the reader to examine the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 04:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
It should be logical that if the article is about Holocaust revisionism/denial then it should cover the subject thoroughly without editorializing. Or, it should be about the PHENOMENON of Holocaust denial, which is clearly delusional, and should be labeled as such. Or, the majority of the article should be played "straight," from the viewpoint of the proponents, with a smaller section on criticism. The Bigfoot article, for example, spends more time dispensing with the notion of a Sasquatch than it does describing one. Of course, there is virtually no evidence available to discuss on Bigfoot/Sasquatch. However, concerning the Holocaust there is a vast body of evidence. This article needs to make clear at the outset that its purpose is absolutely to condemn Holocaust denial and that it sees no compelling need to treat the subject the slightest bit seriously, since it is inherently and inalterably false. Then it wouldn't be POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 14:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
So under that rubric the name of the article should be "Holocaust denial phenomenon" or "Study of Holocaust denial." For example, the article on Portland cement is about its use, technology, application, etc., not about whether people disagree with Portland cement. I'd say that is more the model that should be used for a good WP article. For example, the WP article on witchcraft is largely about witchcraft, pure and simple, even though the majority of the world doesn't believe in it or even condemns it. That might be another model for this article, because as it stands now it is basically POV, which you haven't even bothered to dispute. I don't have much more to say to you or anyone who posts terse, dismissive responses. Please put mre effort into this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 15:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. It would seem that pre-deciding that it's pseudohistory is itself POV, but, as you point out, virtually all legitimate scholars have one point of view. I should point out that they are "legitimate" because largely they are on the government payroll in various countries and wouldn't have a job if they engaged in major revisions, such as re-examination of the often conflicting and at times impossible testimonial evidence. More importantly, why doesn't this article discuss the legitimate revisions that have already taken place since the Nuremberg trials? The Auschwitz museum has reduced the number of dead estimate from 4 million to 1.5. Dachau no longer claims that the gas chamber was used for killing. Unfortunately, now I have to leave off for several days as I am going camping. I'll check back.
The reason I don't make any additions to the article is that I have done so in the past and they have been swiftly reversed. It might help if the category of Pseudohistory were clearly demarcated near the top of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.158.55.154 ( talk) 17:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I personally can not remain silent to this. This article is grossly biased it is far to opinionated to be an adequate example. There is evidence to support both sides and because one chooses to investigate the other does not make them anti-semitic its not a hatred its a passion for investigating how something really happened. Further more should this not be a catergory of the holocaust article it is after all related to the holocaust and is a very important topic that should be considered with even the basics examinations into the subject. I would also say I put myself in this Holocaust revisionist category hell I do not say it does not happen but that it was grossly exagerated I do not believe the proof can be one hundred percent valid either. If all these people died... how did such a large number of them remain to flee into other countries? They did not just come out of no where. Further more why does this seem so incredibly descriminatory against people who investigate the subject. It is to grossly one sided and I know I am typing things that have been said before but how can I not when we have this plainly offensive article? Yes bad things happen but why is it so important to say they happened exactly how they happened its similar to the catholic churchs reaction to all those emerging sects. Little arguements and disputes lead to instability and what not but does not most people agree a more tolerant outlook is better then a hard blocked wall? Come now this is a place where facts and theories should be layed down without biased analysed surely and true many of these denials have been proven wrong but that is not reason to sway on the whole subject entirely things need to be questioned. Please try not to discredit people who have put so much effort into checking the numbers and the statistics. This... article almost made me feel sick. I thought wiki was the one place that would look at controversal topics in a sensible sense rather then taking sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KnivesFF7 ( talk • contribs) 13:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I realise that many anti-semitic consider such a notion to be valid, but i still can not understand why the denial of Holocaust leads to the logical conclusion to term it as anti-semitic? Lets take an example. There are people who consider that their own government could be responsible for the events that lead to and occured in September 11, 2001. Now i realize that these people may be labeled as consipiracy theorists by some, yet the taught might not occur to those "some" to consider these people to be terrorist or supporters of terrorism. Is it because their search for the truth appears genuine and even perhaps bordering an obsession, that we may simply label them as consipiracy theorists and not go further and say that since they are denying the "truth", <<they can only be doing that for one and only one reason alone, to support the terrorist>> ? I realize that most likely, people who could entertain the notion; Holocaust to be non exsistant, or perhaps in lesser magnitude, are considered anti-semitic's, people who perhaps even consider themselves anti-semitic. But there should be a distinction between what individuals consider and what groups of people consider. Can't a person who is not anti-semitic be able to consider such a notion? There are people whose purpose is the search for the truth. If they consider their own reasearch, which leads them to consider the magnitude of the Holocaust to be questionable, are these people too placed in the same booth as those who deny wholly that the event occured? Will we label them aswell as anti-semitic? Then offcourse we have those who question everything, just to question everything because for them its all a "big conspiracy". We may realize that they could be just misguided by their own reasoning abilities, but we would not go as far to label such people who have spesific agenda to target a spesific group, a hateful act. Now it may be unclear, and things might start to get blurry. I must admit i myself am now uncertain where i am heading with this, maybe the reader may be able help me clearify my own thoughts! (It is irrelevant if i consider Holocaust to have occured or not. I only wish to understand why Holocaust denial is considered anti-semitic) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.88.188.231 ( talk) 18:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
"... holocaust denial claims imply or openly state that ... Jewish conspiracy' is surely unfair. Holocaust denial in general may be due to misinformation, belief in a conspiracy by other groups, or any number of other possibilities - let us not forget the number of Jews who were themselves victims due to the fact that, like most people of the time, they could not believe that the ongoing genocide was really happening - simply because normal people find it hard to swallow that man could commit such inhumanity to man. This may be naive, but it is not due to any flaw of character. To me, the really dangerous anti-Semite is surely not the duped disbeliever but the ardent supporter of the Holocaust. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew schaug ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Just what I was going to post. I think this can be classified as not neutral/bias? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.191.224 ( talk) 13:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg, Please stop undoing my relatively trivial edits, removing references to the inherent "Antisemitism" of this theory. The article at large (and title thereof) more than states the commonly held belief that this is a "denial" of "truth". That said, taking into consideration the concession that the word "denial" belongs in the title, there is no need to label this theory as "antisemitic" in the introductory paragraph. The cited source is POV and does not belong in an encyclopedic account of this theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.171.71.135 ( talk • contribs) 01:44, August 19, 2008
I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT WHY IS THAT A PERSON WHO DENIES THE SHOAH( HOLOCAUST) IS IMMEDIATLY LABELLED ANTISEMITIC SURELY A PERSON CAN DENY WHAT THEY LIKE, THE HOLOCAUST I THINK NEEDS A VERY SERIOUS REVISION 17:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi guys,
While I don't want to side with the Holocaust deniers, I do think there is a valid point in saying that the assertion "Holocaust denial is antisemitic" is an opinion rather than a fact. Any evaluation of a phenomenon as being of a particular nature necessarily involves a subjective value judgment. Thus, the assertion needs to be sourced as being the majority opinion rather than asserted as unassailable truth. That means, it is not sufficient to assert "HD is antisemitic" but, instead, we should assert something like "the overwhelming majority of group X characterizes HD as antisemitic". And then find a reliable source who says exactly that. To be pedantic, no number of sources that say "HD is antisemitic" is adequate sourcing for the assertion "the overwhelming majority of group X characterizes HD as antisemitic". We must find a source that says it explicitly. Even better would be someone who backs up the assertion with a quantitative survey of reliable sources such as historians. -- Richard ( talk) 19:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
If you think millions of Jews have deliberately lied about the holocaust you are, by definition, an antisemite.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 15:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
some people deny the existence of this talk section, apparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.209.3 ( talk) 18:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
"Among the evidence produced was film and stills that showed the existence of prisoner camps, as well as the testimony of those freed when the camps were entered."
This statement is not really valid argument unless someone knows of films and stills which the Soviets produced (though some might be skeptical of such). The article later notes that Rassinier was in Buchenwald and cites this as a basis for arguing that he therefore would not have seen extermination camps. But at the time Rassinier began writing there were many claims going around in the public domain which asserted that Buchenwald and all of the camps in the west had been death camps. This was one of the motives for Rassinier's decision to entertain revisionist ideas. Now the only films and stills which I've ever run across are those taken in the west at not only Buchenwald but also Dachau and Bergen-Belsen. These were not extermination camps and so films from such do not count as evidence (and the article tacitly recognizes this when commenting on Rassinier). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.137.134 ( talk) 03:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I found a passage attributed Andrew Mathis which says:
"Holocaust denial constitutes a conspiracy theory, and how the theory is distinctly American..."
Anyone familiar with revisionist literature will be aware that the major bulk of it very definitely does not come either from America or even in the English language. Italy has been the source of the major revisionist work in the last couple decades. Before that France had begun as the country from which the major revisionist efforts were being written. Simply by comparing who has produced what one will have to acknowledge that the USA has generally lagged behind such European countries in revisionist literature. While it's OK to quote whatever Mathis chooses to say, it should be clarified for the reader's benefit that most modern revisionism is distinctly Italian and all of it from the beginning has been distinctly European. That's not an issue of a POV, it's just what follows from a cursory check on the main revisionist literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.20 ( talk) 11:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Does this Wikipedia inform about the Italian revisionism? Xx236 ( talk) 10:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
He admitted he was wrong or missunderstood. To be notable one shoud have an opinion about the subject. Xx236 ( talk) 07:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC) According to [1] Ion Coja, Radu Theodoru, Albert Szabo, István Csurka are notorious deniers. They don't have their articles here. Xx236 ( talk) 09:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Category:Holocaust deniers includes 84 people. Why some of them are listed, the others aren't? Xx236 ( talk) 09:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Try Google "Ion Coja", you will find his "Holocaust in Romania ?", in English. He is known in Israel. He is a member of university staff. Dariusz Ratajczak is a night warden. Xx236 ( talk) 09:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
A notable denialist is a person, who denies the Holocaust. A person who quotes other denialists and later says Sorry, I forgot to declare that I was quoting is a coward, a conformist, maybe even an idiot, but not a notable denialist. If you loose your wallet, someone catches the wallet, you shout - It's mine, and the person returns your wallet - is he/she a notable thief? I doubt very much.
Dariusz Ratajczak has been nominated a notable denialist by media. This reminds me the novel The Lost Honour of Katharina Blum.
You are responsible when you quote - both Ratajczak and you in the same way. Don't tell me later I was only quoting BBC or NYT, I didn't know the subject.
I haven't found any English language text by Ratajaczak but there are many Ratajczak-experts here. Xx236 ( talk) 13:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(←)Xx236, I wonder if, when we're using the word notable, we're talking about the same thing? On Wikipedia, notable simply means there's enough published information in existence for us to write a decent article that's a distillation of reliable secondary sources. Outside Wikipedia, notable is often used to mean famous. The information about Dariusz Ratajczak on Wikipedia is certainly well-sourced enough to meet our definition of notability, even though he may not otherwise be especially famous (or infamous!). As Lebob-BE has said, the fact that people you regard as more well-known Holocaust deniers aren't on the list doesn't mean they aren't notable too - it just means that no-one has written an article about them yet. EyeSerene talk 12:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
You act as post-colonialists, you impose your image of my world. I don't like to be a post-slave, even if the masters from BBC or NYT are somtimes generous. Xx236 ( talk) 14:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
this is a misquote. what david irving said is that more people died on the backseat of Ted Kennedy's care that went into the river at Chappaquiddick than died in "that" gas chamber, referring to the gas chamber at Auschwitz which was reconstructed after the war. "that" gas chamber didnt kill anyone. here is the video that clarifies Irving's remarks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n8FlkiWLKA
this quote needs to be reworded. any suggestions? Statesboropow ( talk) 03:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
what better source than david irving himself being interviewed and the words straight from the mans mouth? Statesboropow ( talk) 17:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
that has got to be the dumbest thing i have ever heard. now you tell david irving what he thinks? i think he is a very smart, articulate man. and if he is so crazy, they wouldnt put him in jail. 72.45.61.254 ( talk) 03:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
i'd be willing to bet that it couldnt be shown that david irving has ever lied about anything he has written about. he has over 30 books to his credit and anyone who has seen him talk can ttell that he is very well educated on the story of Nazi Germany. and at the end of the day, all he is doing is giving his opinion on an historical event. and for that he has been jailed, threatened and god knows what else. if Wikipedia was forced by law to profess a certain opinion i am sure you'd be in an uproar about it. Statesboropow ( talk) 03:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
i cant believ that you and i agree that jailing people for holocaust "denial" is stupid. i am done on this issue. just thought it could be improved. Statesboropow ( talk) 04:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Am I to assume from what I'm reading here that there exists Wikipedia rules that effectively implies certain newspapers' articles take precedent over video footage of the same event? If so, then who decided which newspapers (and hence ALL of its articles and journalists past, present and future) are considered reliable, and on what detailed analysis did they base this on? -- Angryjames ( talk) 12:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I have corrected the quote, changing it to the words spoken in the interview cited in the opening post (it occurs at 6.20 approx.). They are the actual words of Irving, so I don't understand Lebob-BE objection against using it. The original version of the quote was also not accurate when compared against the cited German source (the article by Karl Pfeifer) - the quote in that source is almost word-for-word the same as that given in Irving's interview. Quotations have to be accurate, if they are not then they shouldn't be presented as quotations. Meowy 01:23, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Tried to edit a simple typo and could not find it amid the blizzard of notes. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 23:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
mentions only the jewish victims. if more than just jewish victims died, then isnt denying the Holocaust also a denial of the non-Jewish victims? Statesboropow ( talk) 03:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
no. and i havent seen anything that would lead me to believe that anyone who talks about the holocaust cares to share the misery with anyone other than the jewish victims. i have heard over and over again "six million jews". yes, the jews suffered, but so did a lot of others, and right along side of the Jewish souls too. it may be seen as a silly example, but watch "Dead Man Walking" with Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon and there is only mention of the Jews. i know that innocent jews died and suffered greatly as a people. but i am angered when only their suffering is mentioned. sorry if that offends you. Statesboropow ( talk) 05:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
well jpgordon, who are you to tell me to go away? why dont you go away? the holocaust wasnt a uniquely jewish experience and i think people resent that. i know i do. maybe the article can be revised to be a little more fair? Statesboropow ( talk) 03:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
holocaust "denial", if there is such a thing, cant be about the Jews when they only make up 55% of the victims. 72.45.61.254 Statesboropow ( talk) 03:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC) 03:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
This is a very interesting point. Deniers (for want of a better term) put forward precisely this argument. It is undeniable that the term "Holocaust" carries considerable weight and that no equivalent term that includes all casualties (or other casualties) exists. It is also the cause of much resentment which fuels the denier argument. The fact remains that for whatever reasons (and there are many good reasons) the term "Holocaust" exists and means what it does. What is perhaps more interesting for the denier argument is that the term is, as I understand it, a fairly modern concoction. I don't believe the Wiki entry for it states the origins of the word, nor the time period in which it was first introduced. -- Angryjames ( talk) 10:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
All I need is a quote showing that he has personally dedicated to any of the numbers (below 5 mil) he cites, and I will stop removing him from the list. forestPIG (grunt) 17:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Last time I looked his thesis was not available in English. I guess he now finds it an embarassment, but the title is a strong indicator as to the content and various people quote its content. There are a lot of russian speakers in Israel so Israeli information is likely to be accurate.
Telaviv1 ( talk) 21:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Well Lipstadt is right that the list is very Euro-centric. It probably should include more non-Europeans... I guess Abbas is more of a former denier than a present one. But he is important.
Abbas is 'important' because what? it paints a Palestenian leader as what anti-semitic? Fact is he does not deny the holocaust. He questions whether the facts around it are used for poltical purposes related to Israel - the editing of this article is good example of that. The Iranian leader falls in the same boat but I wouldnt attempt to argue about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.232.135 ( talk) 15:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Telaviv1 (
talk)
13:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
This whole article is so heavily tied up that it will never achieve being truly neutral, but one can hope.
While historical revisionism is the re-examination of accepted history, with an eye towards updating it with newly discovered, more accurate, or less-biased information, deniers seek evidence to support a preconceived theory, omitting substantial facts.
(Do I have to explain why that is... problematic? It's well-sourced, but it claims what is ultimately a value judgement as fact, and is a broad generalization of a group.)
I don't dare change it, lest I be spat upon from both sides of the gallery.
All I ask is that someone who lurks around here takes a look at this and really thinks about it, especially considering the intrinsic value of the words, and tone. 24.205.50.170 ( talk) 22:37, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I took a crack at simplifying and cleaning up this article. There's still a long way to go. There are many statements are that not well supported by the sources, and there was a lot of material which was tangential to the overall article. One of the biggest problems is that the overall structure of the article is that hideous amounts of text are submerged in footnotes. Much is simply redundant -- it is unnecessary to quote verbatim from every source. Also, the extensive source quotes actually obsure the article sources, because they are submerged in the textual quotations. Large amounts of material could be moved to other articles, and for David Irving I did so. There were also a number of statements like "so and so, Holocaust denier, claimed Holocaust did not happen". I changed a lot of those to just "so and so said Holocaust did not happened." I think that sufficient given the overall completely irrefutable prove of the Holocaust. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 05:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Not talking about the nazi-KKK photo ... the whole article must be canceled and rewritten, it's so disappointing. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tetox (
talk •
contribs)
00:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
— Tetox ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I rewrote the first three sections, that is, I left the text intact, joined up a paragraph or two. Mainly I cut out all the quotations from the sources and reworked the citation format so the can be more readily identified by future editors. I also combined a large number of duplicative citations, many of which had duplicate quotations as well. I printed out this article before this edit and it was 30 pages long, far too much of which was consumed by the footnote quotations. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 03:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
NO!!!!! THE RIGHT TRANSLATION IS ON THE WEB: On voit peut-être mieux ce que signifie cetteméthode historique: elle dans notre société de représentation et de spectacle, une tentative d'extermination sur le papier qui relaie l'extermination réelle and the translation of the translater in English [5] (the paragraph On the revisionist method at the end of it after point 8) It will perhaps now be better perceived what such a historical method signifies: in our spectacle-oriented society, it is an attempt at extermination on paper that pursues in another register the actual work of extermination. José Fontaine ( talk) 11:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)