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I have elected that this article undergo a peer review: Wikipedia:Peer review/Hollywood North/archive1. The talk page was archived because it was oversized, and also to give our reviewers an 'untainted' opinion of the article. Editors interested in reviewing previous conversations may visit the archived discussions via the archive box to the right. Mkdw talk 11:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
note: "Hollywood North" is not a film industry term. Variety, the most well-known and respected film industry trade magazine does not refer to Canada or any of its cities or Provences as "Hollywood North" but rather as Canada's more well-known slang term, "The Great White North". This article is an advertisement for Canada in the guise of information about a "so-called" film industry term which is not even used in the film industry. It is, however, an advertising term that has been coined by Canadians who are trying to use subsidy schemes and attempting the misappropriation of the "Hollywood" name itself to try to lure U.S. film productions away from the real Hollywood. This is confusing (as there is already a "Hollywood" as well as a very real city of "North Hollywood"); and to call Canada "Hollywood" is just not factual, but misleading. This page should be renamed "The Great White North Film Production" or deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Donteatyellowsnow ( talk • contribs)
Top Entertainment Industry Mag, Variety references to "The Great White North" and does NOT reference "Hollywood North" when referring to Canada.
Videotron won't pay in fund fracas Cabler unhappy with fund's management
"Videotron, one of Canada's leading cable operators, has decided to stop financing the Canadian Television Fund, one of the main motors of TV production in the Great White North."
Posted: Wed., Jan. 24, 2007, 4:00pm PT
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117958021.html
Posted: Wed., Jan. 10, 2007, 2:14pm PT
Alliance Atlantis sold for $2 billion CanWest and Goldman Sachs pony up
"CanWest, which has print and broadcasting assets in Canada and radio and television interests in Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, missed the boat on the pay television explosion in Canada. However, the AAC acquisition further entrenches CanWest as one of the two largest media companies in the Great White North."
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117957101.html
WGN to 'Gas' up on Canuck series World Brief
Posted: Sun., Nov. 26, 2006, 6:17pm PT
"'Corner Gas' draws around 1.5 million viewers in the Great White North; the fourth season is airing on CTV. Created by and starring Brent Butt, the sitcom is about life in the fictional prairie town of Dog River, Saskatchewan."
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117954523.html
Donteatyellowsnow 04:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Variety magazine - Canucks consider their options: "Hollywood North has in fact geared up for an unprecedented surge in film and TV service work"
Variety magazine - Exex seek Calif. job growth, tourism boost: Eisner calls for relief to stop runaway film prod'n: According to Eisner, it can be $4 million-$6 million cheaper to shoot a film in Canada. "The issue is real and should be addressed. It's almost become part of the entertainment culture that there's a Hollywood and there's a Hollywood in the North."
-- Ckatz chat spy 04:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a vote for all. A disambig. link is a great idea and contributes to Wikipedia's clickability. However, what that disambig links to is another question. We'll vote:
From the Protologism article in Wiktionary[:
How humorous that this term would be invoked by someone complaining about lack of citability. The ongoing superfluous and very POV alterations of this article by Yellowsnow are well into the pale of the well-defined term "Vandalism", however.... Skookum1 00:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
See Hollywood (disambiguation) for a full listing of the many places named Hollywood, or with names derived from the Hollywood film industry (e.g. Bollywood, Lollywood....there's also "Brollywood", another nickname for Vancouver but that doesn't have as much currency as HN). And also see, as Mkdw as already pointed you to, WP:SNOW, meaning that you're way out of line and your deletion agenda "doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell". Skookum1 03:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy to include San Francisco, Santa Barbara, Ulan Bataar, Narvik or anywhere else in the article if there is something behind it. I've looked into the sources for the recent edits and I'm finding that they don't support the assertions made in the article. I’ll start with the section that my heading comes from.
Again, your bias leads you to delete and put anything I edit under a microscope after-the-fact. A microscope that NONE of your sources could hold up to (and why this page was up for deletion as the "nonsense" in the first place).
Yet what about these "so-called" sources which you don't ever question (just to name A HALF DOZEN... there's more):
8. ^ CBC: Searched for 'Hollywood North'. CBC News. Retrieved on 2007-01-02. (how can a search count as a source? -- this is nonsense. AND the search was limited to just CBC news. Again, Canadian bias)
9. ^ "Hollywood North Vancouver". Google Inc.. Retrieved on 2007-01-01. (ditto: a search used as a source when half the searches turn up PR sites and/or people selling something regarding almost anything. PLUS it is limited to Vancouver.)
11. ^ New numbers confirm Toronto's rank as Hollywood North. City of Toronto. Retrieved on 2007-01-01. (propaganda: use of the term by the very people benefiting/creating the use of the term does not count as a source for reference).
13. ^ "Hollywood North Toronto". Google Inc.. Retrieved on 2007-01-01. (again a search is used as a reference and is limited to those containing Toronto -- bias, vague, not a real source)
14. ^ a b Hollywood North: The Canadian film industry. Statistics Canada. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (Statistics and propaganda from the Canadian government which is benefiting financially from the subsidy scheme).
26. ^ Some 'useless' facts about Vancouver. Vancouver dot Travel. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (Okay: this reference is CALLED "USELESS FACTS" it is also a travel-realted reference. You did NOT question this though!)
27. ^ Mayor's Office Release. City of Vancouver. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (again... propaganda/PR in an effort to promote his city for film business/ runaway productions)
32. ^ What Makes Canada Cool. Canadacool.com. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (This is the equivalent of "Useless Facts" - It is vague and undetermined what if anything really is "cool" and totally subjective)
Unlike most of my sources you have cited NONE absolutely NONE that define the term "Hollywood North" or that even discuss it. You have framed all of your research around Canada only. That is why there needs to be another page dedicated to all these lists of useless production statistics about Canada called "The Canadian Film Industry" and this page should just be about the colloquialism "Hollywood North" which has been used to describe just about any location outside of Hollywood, California that is to the North.
I've just replaced San Francisco with Greed as the earliest film to be shot in San Francisco (it predates the former by twelve years).
I have two concerns about the quote from the San Francisco travel book ("Some of filmdom's most important studios are camped in the Bay Area and the local film industry is frequently referred to as 'Hollywood North'."):
1) The quote provides no indication as to how long San Francisco has been refered to as Hollywood North. True, American feature films have been shot in the city for over eight decades, but this in no way means that San Francisco has been known as Hollywood North for a similar length of time. I am hoping that the guide provides more information than what is contained in the quote.
2) In his posting of 22:49, 30 January 2007, JGGardiner relates that s/he was unable to locate the quote in the book. Would Donteatyellowsnow please provide a page number? Victoriagirl 01:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The absurdity of Donteatyellowsnow's claims and accusations increases with each examination of his/her "contributions". The amount of energy put into researching non sequitur facts, then posing them as distractions, has been rather interesting, and it's true that casual use of Hollywood North, in the days of Mary Pickford and Charlie Chaplin, might have included Stockton and SF; but SF never went around promoting itself as Hollywood North - which granted is certainly done by Toronto, and incraesingly to a degree by Vancouver (but with a different context and origin). Yellowsnow's problem is that such promotions are not valid because he/she says they're not, because it's some kinf of insult to Hollywood or whatever. In my mental notes on this in the last few days, following the resumed edit war, I've begun to refer to Yellowsnow as "the Dissembler from the LA Film Office" or some other Cailfornia-industry body intent on undermining the perceieved threat of the Hollywood North "brand" to Hollywood's presumed integrity and uniqueness. We can't help what has become a common term, albeit with different meanings in Vancouver vs Toronto and also as it happens on the occasional bit of casual use for places within the US. As for Brollywood, Bollywood and Lollywood, what's the name of that big studio near London, one of the older film sound stages/backlots in the UK - "somethingwood Studios", just can't remember its name right now. Point is I think Donteatyellowsnow may be a professional p.r. person who's been assigned to "go after" the Hollywood North label. A simple LA-fanatic and cinephile mania isn't enough to warrant or justify or account for the nasty behaviour and outright dissembling of the last few weeks; I think there's a budget at work here, but can't guess at whose. Not specifically, but I've seen all the hallmarks of professional p.r./advertising campaigns at play here. Still makes me wonder which corporate network was the point of origin that IP address SPA, possible sockpuppet, that appeared on the RD. I'm amused that Yellowsnow has now fessed up to US usages, howevermuch obscure, for Hollywood North as within the US. Maybe he's meaning Mary Tyler Moore's Minneapolis-St. Paul? :-) Skookum1 08:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
A REMINDER:
Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.
"In 2000, cuts to Toronto's film and television subsidies meant that the nickname of "Hollywood North" was still primarily associated with Vancouver" appears in the "Toronto" section. The source actually only says that the venture has declined but it only implies a decline in the use of the term and does not note it directly. Although it is a logical step, I'm concerned that is a bit of WP:OR. I won't remove it for now because it is probably worth noting the decline but it should be rewritten to maintain consistency with the source. And yes, I am aware that it was likely placed by a Canadian (without having checked). -- JGGardiner 09:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I am going to remove the Sundance (Entertainment Tonight) reference that I had a problem with above. Besides the source problem, it appears as a single usage anyway. If somebody would like to note that the term is also used in such an ad hoc fashion, that's fine but I don't think that we need to list every instance of that use. -- JGGardiner 09:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have just deleted the 'Origin of the term "Hollywood North"' section and thought it best to discuss my reasoning. The first paragraph was removed because the reference, a travel guide entitled San Francisco, appears not to contain the information that has been quoted. Requests for a page reference, made to to the editor who supplied this information, have gone unanswered. [7] [8] The second paragraph does not refer to the origin of the term. This information has been moved to the 'San Francisco and the Silicon Valley' section.
Two changes have been made to the 'Canada and Runaway production' section. The first concerns the removal of the statement that Canadians "appropriated" the term "Hollywood North". One cannot appropriate a term unless it was already in use. Though I think it likely that "Hollywood North" existed as a term prior to its use in reference to Toronto, Vancouver or the Canadian film industry, no verifiable information has yet been supplied. I have also removed the claim that the term has "allegedly" been in use since 1981. The reference, a Globe and Mail article from 8 September 1981, backs up this information.
Other changes are, I feel, self-evident: two citation requests and the removal of redundant links. Victoriagirl 20:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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We have to remember that, as Wikipedia editors, we can not make our own authoritative statements. Saying that something is the "first-known" of whatever qualifies. We can say that Jean Doe says it is but we can't say it ourselves. Because we are not experts. "First-known" means known to mankind. The Lonely Planet book is just the first known to DEYS and the rest of us here. Not to put down google searches but our research efforts are not exactly exhaustive. =) -- JGGardiner 08:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
This section had many huge NPOV issues such as using 'Canadians' in a general term instead of Canada or Canadian Government. Other problems included words such as 'self-claimed', 'self-given', etc. and until references can be found have been removed. However those statement words have a WP:SNOW chance of being references because they're impossible to prove and many US references refer to Canada as Hollywood North. I also have a problem with "Pay Television" by The Globe and Mail, 8 September 1981 pg 7 reference as The Globe and Mail does not mark its pages as such. A7, B2 etc. are page numbers in which Global Media uses to number their newspapers. Also the date stamp is in the American format which makes me think that is a falsified reference. Mkdw talk 22:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Also there are no references that refer to San Fran as Hollywood North. This section should be deleted. If you do a google search "Hollywood North San Francisco" there are 0 search results. Mkdw talk 22:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of reaching consensus, I'd like to begin discussion about what information concerning the film Hollywood North should be included in the article. The setting and period of this film has twice been removed [16] [17]. I question these deletions:
1) No explanation has been given for the removal of information that the film takes place in Toronto. As the city is one of several locations that has been tagged with the term "Hollywood North", it would appear that this fact is highly relevant.
2) The year in which the film takes place - 1979 - was removed with the explanation "confusing if the film was made in 1979 - irrelevant fact". In fact, the film was released in 2003, a fact contained in the article. I think the year in which the film takes place is relevant, particularly as it relates to the Canadian industry as it existed in the 'seventies (and not 2003). I think the previous wording ("A movie, Hollywood North, starring Matthew Modine, was released in 2003. It was set in Toronto in 1979, detailing the struggles of two Canadian film producers.") was in no way confusing.
Finally, I would propose that the words "fictional feature film" be replaced by the more accurate " mockumentary" or "mockumentary feature film".
I look forward to hearing from other users on these issues. Victoriagirl 07:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Given the attempts by most contributors to this article to reach some sort of balanced, encyclopedic article have been mostly frustrated, I suggest that it's time to take this article to Wikipedia:Request comment on articles. The commentary on that dispute resolution procedure suggests getting a third opinion (I had also thought of asking for the assistance of an "outside" admin, like someone listed in Australian Wikipedia administrators or something similar). Any thoughts? Agent 86 08:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The Judy Steed reference doesn't have a link, an ISBN, a name of the article or a name of the publication. I think this should be removed if it cannot be verified.
Also I disagree with all the moves to put San Francisco at the bottom of the page when clearly that was the FIRST KNOWN use of the slang "Hollywood North" as San Francisco has had a thriving film community for much longer than the 10 years that Canada has tried to create one. Also it is stated in print that San Francisco is KNOWN as that, that is a definition and is the first definition. Nobody here has any print definition of Canada or any of the competing Canadian cities that defines any of them as "Hollywood North". Mere mentions of the name don't count (per Wiki rules of source criteria). Therefore SF should come first in the order of this page and all other cities should be considered for removal unless there is a PRINT definition, not just 'mention' (since you guys deleted the other U.S. cities such as Seattle).
I also think that this might be a good time to break Hollywood North off from the statistics of various filmmaking locations. Maybe this page should just be about the slang term and be a sort of disamb. page and have links to the various other filmmaking pages (i.e. Canadian film industry and U.S. ones) or whatnot. Some of the stats are also questionable and read as advertisements or are unproveable (such as many in the Toronto section -- ie. about the realtively new Toronto film fest being a precursor to the Oscars or even that it is the "premiere" film festival of North America (kind of a Johnny Come Lately in that respect -- with many other film festivals having much more weight and longer histories). BTW, how do those stats separate American exports (ie. runaway prods) from true "Toronto" productions (they are all glommed in there together as if they are one and the same stats). If an American film shoots in Toronto it is not a "Canadian export" necessarily -- so those stats are likely misleading. Donteatyellowsnow
The source that is cited for this is the arts and culture page for Toronto and does not say any of this: "Toronto is the third-largest television production centre in North America,[31] just behind Vancouver and Los Angeles; the city ranks second as an exporter of televison programming in North America.[32]" ^ Toronto Facts. City of Toronto. Retrieved on 2007-01-14. I think this should be deleted. Or re-sourced. - Donteatyellowsnow
I'm not real sure why film festival posters are doing on this article? At least the Toronto section mentions their festival, but I didn't see a link to the Vancouver one. Regardless, I think this article is suppose to be about the film making industry and references to any film festivals from SF, Toronto, and Vancouver should go (both pics and content). Film festivals are about showing the films, not making them, and since they are all "internationl" festivals that means at least some of the films were not made in the city holding the festival. Otherwise maybe Seattle needs to be added, they have a film festival, they're north of Hollywood, and some movies are filmed there too. Aboutmovies 04:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The toronto film festival is actually pretty relevant when relating the term hollywood north to toronto. That term experiences greater usage amongst the public and media during the festival as well one of the factors for the media labelling of toronto as hollywood north has to do with all the publicity that surrounds the TIFF. Not to mention the festivals relation as the un-official start of the oscar races.
-- Duhon, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Worth a comment here that Donteatyellowsnow, during the AFD or another round of this page's sorry fracas, went looking for trouble and found some other articles which he had to take a poke at; as I recall it was the List of ghost towns article, where you'll find a piqued and nasty comment edit by DEYS in the edit history, about a topic area he knows absolutely nothing about (which I do). So here we have another example of DEYS doing "predatory" Wiki-ing - going after an opponent, either by digging up what he thinks is dirt on them, or by finding other articles to stalk them at. Minor stalking, perhaps, as with the ghost towns edit, and more pathetically amusing than anything else. Donteatyellowsnow can associate himself all he wants with the puerile bleatings of HongQiGong and his simplistic condemnations of me, or with Aboutmovies' attempts to wage wordwar against me on Talk:Oregon Country - where, in the wake of the latest round of accusations and sophomoric dissembling on terms I got tired for the fracas and did the "disengage" (well, except for a bit below...). I have better and far more worthwhile things to do on this planet than argue with sophomoric nitpickers (on Oregon Country and as in HongQiGong's case - though both antagaonists have degrees, you'd never know it with some comments/references made....I don't have a degree, so don't need an excuse ;-) and paranoid childishness (Donteatyellowsnow and a certain rp) that also happens to be associated with SPA-type activity and a particlar agenda (DYES' is trivial by comparison to many others, granted). And yes, these other topics don't belong in this discussion but Doneatyellowsnow thinks that they do, and that character assassination is not only a legimate pasttime but also relevant to getting rid of one of his more pointed critics in this discussion. Pointed, and I've even held my tongue becawsue the inanity and virulent hostility of Donteatyellowsnow's activities is naueating (and no, Langara College, he's not the only one here with a professional interest in the film industry - there's at least two others of us - and "professional" is hardly a word I would use to describe Donteatyellowsnow, except in the capacity/context of "professional p.r. man" or "professional spin doctor". A lot of the twisting of truth and hateful, whiney invective inserted into the article by DYES reminds me of nothing so much as American-style political attack ads, in fact; and I don't need to go looking in DYES' edit history to find ugly things about him to point out; you don't have to read far into the edit history of the article or the talkpage here to find some bit of perverse nuttiness and deceitful, manipulating edits done by DYES. So he can go and join HongQiGong's little hate-Skookum1 club (and it's Skookum1, not "SKOOKUM") and pretend to be all morally superior in the same end of the self-righteous mudpatch. Oh, I'm sorry was that a personal attack? Maybe you should try not making them youself, then, DYES? Trying to provoke me into a block? Hell, even in the last week, while just watching you nonsense going on here, I've still contributed and edited in other areas as I'm not an SPA (as you are); your campaign here has nothing to do with truth, but with an attempt to distort and evenb denounce the truth (which you also sought to get deleted), and built on a clear and well-articulated group hatred of Canadians and the Canadian film industry by someone with ties or some other strange form of jingoistic loyalty to Hollywood; it's got "agenda" written all over it, as well as rather elaborate measures and drastic edits and attack attitudes right and left. Skookum1
I'm bored with it, and with you; and can't see how Wikipedia can survive in the long run if belligerent, half-informed combatants with axes to grind (including yourself, HongQiGong, etc) can be stubborn and vocal - and childish and stubborn and rude - enough to make sure they get their way, as all the sane people will have left; or gone insane trying to communicate with the incommunicable. Whatever. Go play some mah johngg with HongQiGong and talk over the burning issues of Chinese immigration to Canada (a topic I'm sure you're interested in and must know a lot about, which HQG doesn't despite knowing all about it, or rather only what he wants to know about it...), and maybe brush up on the Oregon Treaty and the Oregon boundary dispute so you can wade into the fray and "fight the good fight" there, too. Speaking of people being canvassed to take on the big skookum in the fray (hi Aboutmovies; recusing myself from Wiki overall lately, and bored with the nitpicking; JQ Adams isn't exactly a "diplomat" , and citing another American source is still yet more evidence of the APOV tilt that you can't seem to see or think outside of, never mind that you theory about "joint occupation" is, ultimately, original research...and also POV because it was a political rant you cited, not a diplomatic note or correspondence). But back to DYES - you've had no problems deleting and distorting history here; why not do it all over Wikipedia? Skookum1 08:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Skookum1 08:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Getting back on point, the question is ‘what are film festival posters doing as illustrations on this article?’ I think the posters should be taken out. In Vancouver, VIFF has virtually nothing to do with Hollywood productions filming in the City. The Vancouver festival screens hundreds of films each year from all over the world, of which no more than two or three are Hollywood productions. The Toronto festival is a bit different, because while it also screens hundreds of films from all over the world, it tends to include a dozen or so high-profile Hollywood productions. Much of the news coverage of TIFF, therefore, focuses on the Hollywood stars attending premieres of their movies in Toronto. But even that is only peripherally related to the concept of Hollywood north; i.e. Hollywood productions being filmed in Toronto.-- Mathew5000 20:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
All these articles make mention of "hollywood north" when discussing the TIFF [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] I find it highly naieve that you believe that there is no relation to the festival and the nickname "hollywood north" in toronto, it is very well documented. the fact that the festival plays heavilly into the oscar races is another factor to its Hollywood connection. the TIFF plays moreso to the hollywood crowds than does cannes even. TIFF has never been labeled as "cannes west" its an entirely different entity. I will try to explain in the article more the connection between the festival and the term to make it more clear.-- Duhon 14 February 2007
The funniest bit I've seen all night is on one of DEYS' recruitment canvasses, which I happened to look at:
there are a handful of them that associate with him
Meaning me, of course. ROTFL. I'm not actually sure any of the other BC/Canadian Wikipedians want to be associated with me; we just all happen to give a shit about BC-related articles and that's why we're "fed-up Canadians". I'm fed up with the Americanization of the history of the Oregon boundary dispute, and of American jingoism rampant (well, sometimes soft-pedalled and even unintentional, but still biased when not fully jingoite) throughout most articles involving cross-border issues. Hell, we haven't even started on
Salmon War yet, huh?
Skookum1
08:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
"Canada, oh yeah, that's up north somewhere. Past Bakersfield, right?" The LA-myopia of the perspective that SF and other non-LA California cities are also Hollywood North, simply by being north of Hollywood, reminds me of those satirical maps/aerial views of the US that show up on New Yorker covers, with only Manhattan and the other boroughs, with a slim line of New Jersey in the distance, and only some indication the rest of the US, never mind the world exists. Something like the script in the CN Tower, if it's still playing since I heard it, that Yonge Street is the world's longest street because if runs all the way to Vancouver. The equivocation of the most widely-recognized meaning(s) of Hollywood North here is getting more than a bit annoying; the primary usages of Hollywood North do not concern casual quips or general references about an amorphous backlot consisting of the rest of the continent outside LA, they concern the Canadian film industry and the urban persona/naming/branding of Vancouver and Toronto in particular. Trying to please those who maintain those are inconsequential and that the real meaning is cities in northern California, or perhaps Seattle or Utah.....gimme a break. Actually, no, no one's giving anyone a break around here, huh? This whole affair is absurd but in and of itself will make an interesting bit of history one day, both on the film industry end of things and also within Wikipedia. The issue of film festivals raised by Aboutmovies above is actually one of the defining parameters of the difference between the usage as applied/used differently by/in/about Vancouver vs Toronto, which was a subject of discussion here before DYES raised the battle standard over whether or not the term/article should even exist, and how its mere usage by Canadians is an affront to the film industry; from my end so is Toronto's appropriation and recultivation of the term, but I can live with that as by definition a parallel, though derivative and different version/usage; whatever other casual uses it may have elsewhere, the Canadian milieu and the images of each of those two cities are primary; and one of the differences is that in TO the existence of TIFF is pointed at as a demonstration of WHY Toronto IS Hollywood North (as opposed to anywhere else that might claim the title, or have previously earned it....) when in Vancouver, VIFF has nothing to do with it except by way of somewhat common cocktail crowd, and the occasional luminary in town to shoot a flick who might show up at the gala, or at least promote their own films; the difference in the film festivals is their different repertoires/menus, also, with Vancouver specializing on world productions and experimental/political stuff, Toronto vying for a place as a "great mainstream festival" or whatever expression might be used. Toronto's vision of Hollywood North, is as I've said before, based oround glamour and glitter and, yes, sharing in the limelight of the Big Industry, while Vancouver's is about a working environment and no developed star machine/branding concerning the city; it's hardly something Tourism Vancouver promotes in the same was as Toronto's tourism marketing does there. That said, this is all irrespective of the ongoing problem with the dissembler who's been such a pain here; actually sorting out the defintions/usages is impossible in the current air of conflicting realities; what is happening here is that someone with POV agenda is successfully defraying proper editing and now is presuming to want moderation/conciliation at the same time as continuing to attack the article, as well as other editors, with relative impunity. There's a lot in the article I think is superfluous from the Vancouver end of what Hollywood North means to and about that city; but the same things absent in Vancouver's self-image as Hollywood North are what defines Toronto's own variant/cooptation. Yes, Toronto is wanting to steal Hollywood's thunder, branding-wise; Vancouver's context is rather than it's an extension of the LA machine, as opposed to being one of its own. And THAT difference is a much bigger and more relevant difference than any one-time or occasional use to refer to Spokane, Boise, Denver, Fargo or wherever..... Skookum1 05:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems especially in the case of san fransisco a city tour guide is being presented as a legitimate book [32] as well as the claim that this is the first written usage of the term hollywood north in 2004, even though the same travel book (toronto edition) as well in 2004 refers to toronto as being the "hollywood of the north" [33]
Are we actually going to be using these as legitimate sources for the article?
--- Duhon February 10th 2007
As someone who lives in San Francisco, I can honestly say I've never heard of our fair city referred to as "Hollywood North". There is a small neighborhood by Candlestick known as "Little Hollywood", Treasure Island is frequently used as a movie set, and there are a lot of filmmakers and support infrastructure in the area, but the use of the term and the industry's importance to San Francisco's economy are minor relative to, say, IT, Finance, professional services, biotech, tourism.
I would further say that, with respect to the Bay Area as a whole, North Bay and East Bay have more significance in this industry than does Silicon Valley. And anyone who says the Silicon Valley is most likely from Southern California, as any self-respecting Bay Area resident knows it is just Silicon Valley. Similar to how you drive on 101 in the Bay Area while you drive on the 101 in Los Angeles.
A quick Google search for "Hollywood North" AND "Canada" turned up three times as many hits as did a Google search for "Hollywood North" AND "San Francisco". This wikipedia article was actually the first entry for that latter query. Searches for "Hollywood North" AND "Vancouver" or "Hollywood North" AND "Toronto" also turned up about twice as many hits as did the search for San Francisco. Upon performing a simple search for "Hollywood North", all the top ten hits were Canada-based. Results for "Hollywood North" AND "Bay Area" and "Hollywood North" AND "Silicon Valley" were miniscule.
Thus, I would humbly suggest that, while San Francisco and the Bay Area should certainly be mentioned in this article, I do not think it should be placed of higher importance than sections devoted to Canada, regardless of the history of the term. Its use is clearly more linked to Canada than it is to San Francisco or the Bay Area.
-- DaveOinSF 06:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree the sheer amount of evidence and sources points to a stronger correlation between the term and Canada in general as opposed to NoCal. -- Brodey 06:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the statements that used [34] as a reference as you will see that paragraph one, line one, does not say the specified quote nor does the book even use Hollywood north. Langara College 00:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the version prior to Donteatyellowsnow's two edit earlier this evening. While I feel my edit summary adequately explained my reasoning, I thought it best to explain the changes here as well. Donteatyellowsnow's explanation for these edits was 1) restoring definition / removing broad statements and unsourced statements w/ factual" and 2) "reposition 1st city referred to as term in 1st position - pending further citation dev. on "1981" ref &/or actual Canadian definition ref". However, I do not feel that those edits are appropriate given the discussions on this page, and the contributions by a San Francisco-based editor. The rewrite of the lead paragraph, in which Vancouver and Toronto were placed before the California sites, was done by DaveOinSF, based on his information that the term "Hollywood North" is not in common use for the city. As for the "reposition" edit, this was done because "Dont" is challenging the validity of the Globe and Mail reference - a citation that has been properly formatted according to Wikipedia guidelines, and verified by a reputable contributor. Given these conditions, I felt it was appropriate to restore the previous version (incorporating "Dont"'s extra references) while we continue this discussion. Thoughts? -- Ckatz chat spy 05:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Y'know, one of the folks around here used to be a reporter and still has their own style guides; he won't have the San Francisco Chronicle's style guide but it's a propos at this point, given DEYS comment here, to call the editorial room of the Chronicle and ask if their style guide, or Associated Press' or anyone's in the US, has "Hollywood North" in it, and what they use it for...If San Francisco regards itself as Hollywood North, or anyone else but DEYS and the Lonely Planet guidebooks does, it's legitimate as another usage. But if Bakersfield and Stockton are somehow "Hollywood North" because of backlots there, might I suggest the Hollywood page be retitled "West Brooklyn" or "Staten Island West", because Hollywood was after all a series of runaway productions from the New York film industry of the time..... Skookum1 19:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I've introduced a reference indicating "Hollywood North" as a nickname for Vancouver. [35] In the interests of furthering this article along I thought I might present the quote on this page: "The idea that British Columbia's feature film industry is a dis-placed cinema is written into the nicknaming of Vancouver, the proviince's centre of film production, as 'Hollywood North' or 'Brollywood.'" [Mike Gasher. Hollywood North: The Feature Film Industry in British Columbia. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press, 2002. p. 8.] Victoriagirl 05:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Ckatz chat spy 20:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)"Take advantage of Vancouver's reputation as Hollywood North (sometimes called Brollywood North during the November rainy season.) These are some of Western Canada's best places for celebrity watching. After a hard day on the set, the movie crews and stars come to eat and relax, see and be seen."
It (Brollywood - I've never seen it in the "Brollywood North" combo though) surfaced, I remember, during the David Duchovny/Tia Leone thing years ago, i.e. Duchovny saying his wife didn't like the rain here, and the media jumping all over him about it. Brollywood is a straightforward take on the often-hundreds, or at least dozens, of umbrellas seen around each film set/circus during some of the "best" of our weather; it's more a reference to having to shoot in the rain, vs. Hollywood North describing the working environment in general. Still hear it now and then, always as a quip/joke in passing....never as a monicker/"tag" like Hollywood North. I may have an old copy of a start-up mag called Role-Call here from 1989, and I'll see if we used it in there (I was its editor), although I know "Hollywood North" was already current at the time, though in more of an awkward "gee - who, us?!" kind of way than a brag/boast or "theft" of Hollywood's allure; again the difference between Vancouver's and TO's usages of the term is the branchplant working environment on the one hand vs the glamour mill/media machine on the other. One is an attempt to ride on Hollywood's coattails and steal some spotlight; the other, original, Canadian usage (Vancouver), has to do with being dragged along behind Hollywood's coattails, and in the spotlight whether you like it or not. The funny part about DEYS' hostility towards me is that I actually agree that Toronto's use IS advertising/promotion, and in the worst way; but the broader general Canadian usage, and the original Vancouver usage, are NOT advertising/promotion but just a reflection of being backlots for LA (or Toronto, for that matter, as is often the case lately). Skookum1 20:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I just want to remind of everyone to mind the civility of their comments. I know that some editors feel that they’ve moved past the point of AGF in this discussion, and I can understand that. However, it is important that everyone maintain their civility even in those circumstances.
And please evaluate each edit on its own merit. Even a problematic editor or one not acting in good faith can make some good edits. So stick to the content not the contributors. I realize that this article has been a challenge for everyone but the best thing for the article is if everyone can maintain the community standards of the project.
I know that it is easy and I too have had to watch what I say and I edit a few posts before I’ve submitted them. When things are heated it is important to look at one’s own actions and make sure that they appropriate. And please remember that it is not acceptable to act badly towards an editor because they did the same to you first. It will take some conscious effort on the part of everyone involved, myself included, but I'd like to see this discussion turned around. Thanks everyone. -- JGGardiner 22:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to throw the cat among the pigeons, I was on a Seymour Street bus last night (not often downtown) and happened to notice the Hollywood North nightclub, which is upstairs in one of the only buildlings on the east side of Seymour between Robson and Smithe (the rest is parking lot or garage). It's not big deal on the Vancouver night life circuit (such as it is), but still in business. I say "still" because I remember it from the Expo summer (1986) when it was one of three clubs on Seymour dubbed "the Playpen", this particular one being "Playpen Central" (the Luv Affair, now extinct, was Playpen South, Systems - now The Drink - was Playpen North. I'll leave the reputation of this particular club aside but bringing it to mention its existence; and that its name was on that sign in at least 1986 (I saw it every day), and in those times in Vancouver if you did say Hollywood North you'd have to tell by context if it was the nightclub or the film industry association that was being made; but usually the former, in fact, although by the end of the next year the momentum on the latter side was on the roll. I should note that AFAIK the club wasn't named as a part of any attempt to ride the film industry's bandwagon, but had been arrived at independently; maybe even it's at fault in getting The Province to notice the name and hype it; although, again, the term was growing within the industry before the newspapers got wind of it - and who knows, maybe the presence of the club name helped move that along or even spawn it. I guess the way to prove the vintage of the club's name and sign is in city business license records (or BC liquor license records?). Skookum1 23:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Just saw WilyD's latest attempts to keep this page encyclopedic, and DEYS rapid-fire attempts to turn it back into an editorial on those mean ol' Canadians making life hard for the California film industry. DEYS' latest funny is his allegation in an edit comment that Americans aren't allowed to edit this page (which doesn't explain why he still can and does, huh?) and that his version of the article is "correct". This nuttiness has gone on long enough; I don't see what's going to be useful here - a mediation, an arbitration, or what? What I do think is that if DEYS pulls another sequence of edits like this morning, and takes that third step and violates the 3RR rule, then it's high time to try and get a block on this SPA. But in the meantime, it's fun picking apart his wildly paranoiac rationalizations and pretentious "correct definitions" which nobody else uses or has even heard. Whatever (Hi, yellowsnow! how's the watered-down beer?); the weird part here is I tried to pull a revert on one but WilyD beat me to it..... Skookum1 19:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
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Upon reading your entry on "Hollywood North", I would like to point out that San Francisco is not referred to as Hollywood North in entertainment circles here in California. Although I cannot cite a source, George Lucas foray into setting up his production studio in the Bay Area caused him to coin the term "his Hollywood North", a term which is attributed to the nickname as used for Vancouver, Canada. In fact, Toronto has laid claim to the name after it has been used and in existence for quite some time. I wanted to make some contributions to your entry but having read the discussion, the impression appears that you may not allow for any additional contribution to the subject and any efforts to add or edit will only be reverted.
Secondly, I would like to add that the use "two to three days drive" in regards to the proximity of "Hollywood" to "Los Angeles" is trivial and should not be included. It is common practice in this industry to have things shipped, parceled out or flown. In many regards, equipment are rented at filming location (which is why Vancouver and Toronto are attractive for production).
The use of the term "Hollywood North" is highly debatable but the history behind the terminology should be included for historical purposes with an addendum to point out the dispute.
Inclusion of San Francisco should be rethought over as being "Hollywood North" since it is rarely, if ever, attributed as such and any such mention in the past was coincidental. Being in this industry here in California, we never refer to SF as being as such. However, the term is and has been attributed to the production centers in Vancouver. In addition, the City of Santa Barabara pens itself as Hollywood North due to the International Film Festival held there as well as a history in silent film making at the turn of the century.
Just my opinion and thoughts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KeroDoe ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The sections on Vancouver and Toronto contradict each other. In the Vancouver section it says: "Vancouver is North America's third-largest film centre,[23][24] just after Los Angeles and New York.[25][26][27] It is second to Los Angeles in television production in the world.[28]". On the other hand, the Toronto section claims: "Toronto ranks third in film and television production in North America[38] and ranks second as an exporter of television programming in North America.[39]. To me, these sentences have practically the same meaning. That's the problem of having to many references, it gives the illusion of accuracy but nobody cares whether the figures are actually correct or not. -- Voyager ( talk) 15:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Greetings & salutations. yesterday I added a link to a wikipedia article: List of films shot in Hamilton, Ontario and that link was removed by Ckatz with no explanation given for the removal. Also, keep in mind that in the "Canada" section of the article it states that Hollywood North "is now common for the term to be used to describe the entire Canadian film industry.[16][17]"...so with that I feel that link I added yesterday should not have been removed so I placed it back to the "See also" section of the article. Have a good day. Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 10:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree with your interpretation Nhl4hamilton. Just because the term is sometimes used to describe the Canadian industry as a whole, it doesn't mean that we have to deal with all of the minutiae of the industry. There are a million things that could be added if the door were really opened as you suggest. -- JGGardiner ( talk) 10:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
You should probably try to get Hamilton mentioned in the article with reliable sources first for the See also link to make any sense to the reader. Merely being in Canada does not automatically warrant inclusion. – Pomte 00:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Greetings. It was pointed out to me that the Internet Movie Database is not a good reliable source to use here on wikipedia. I would like to add a couple of sentences to the Canada section of this article that makes references to Hamilton, Onrario. What I would like to know is I have two sources that I would like to use for citations. One from the local Hamilton Spectator newspaper and the other from the Hamilton Film Office. Would these 2 sources be reliable ones to use here for citations in this article? Thanks. Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 03:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
t
Greetings. I've had some time to think over Ckatz idea of creating a seperate article titled List of Canadian Film Centres and I think it's a great idea. Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat 23:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
... welll i can't find a way to add a comment to i've added it here by "editing" a comment ...
Alliance Atlantis stopped all production in film (and almost all tv) in 2003 and though they continue to do distribution they should not be listed as a producer of films. i've made the changes in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.48.164 ( talk) 22:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 23:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I see we're close to a 3RR on this, I think needlessly. Hollywood North Report is indeed a major Canadian film industry website, even though only founded in 1999; not including it at least as a cite is an omission; it may be that it constitutes a spamlink if in the External Links, although IMO it's not; but it could at least be mentioned in the lead paragraph on the Canadian section where the Hollywood North book from 1981 is also mentioned. Skookum1 ( talk) 01:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, so much for that, I'm in no mood to have to deal with wiki-procedure because some fool arbitrarily put this on a list, and now there's elaborate procedure needed to get it reinstated. It's like saying "National Geographic" is a spam link for "Geography".....would somebody else please deal with this for me as I'm gonna get kinda testy if I have to argue for this link's obvious legitimacy? Reminds me of certain politicians who, under the Canadian system, can do things by fiat/unilteral action, then say "you can ask for a commission to get it changed back, but I might not agree to the commission" etc...too much arbitrary foolishness on Wikipedia is going to drive thos of us actually sane and knowledgeable away from this place..... Skookum1 ( talk) 07:50, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Despite the ambiguities, the general consensus is that the term "Hollywood North" is now attributed to multiple major film centers that is NOT Hollywood itself. I've been reading discussions debating in regards to where Hollywood North is attributed to and the origins of the term, I still find most of what I'm reading not being able to fully get the facts correct. Although it is claimed that the first appearance of the term was Mike Gasher's book, it is not. During the early 80's, Vancouver was starting to see a lot of Hollywood Runaway productions being filmed there. As an aspiring screenwriter, I took a lot of interest in the developing industry in Vancouver. The first time I saw the term "Hollywood North" first appeared in a new publication called Reel West and this is before Gasher's book was published and released. Out of curiosity, I purchased his book when it was first released with the thought that Gasher was "borrowing" the terminology or describing the Industry as it has now become to be known. Sadly, I cannot find any of these publications amongst my huge horde of stowed boxes but I do recall this clearly. In my opinion, Hollywood North was a media coinage and was directly referring to the burgeoning film industry in Vancouver. Having worked on the movie set of Runaway in 1984(no pun intended), those in the business here in California were already familiar with the term. I also recall at one point how the industry here was concerned about losing productions to Vancouver that Variety magazine then first used the term for their article. Again, I cannot directly cite this. Although Wikipedia allows inclusion only for verifiable information, I thought I would post this information and see if you can do your own research.
Finally, to include whatever city which has seen movie productions there is NOT a reason for inclusion. The use of the term is heavily used by the media as a way of describing the industry. When the movie For Keeps was filmed partly in Manitoba and the Press used the term, does that mean Winnipeg can also lay claim to being known as Hollywood North? It is a common term and its present use should not be a basis for including every film center on the wikipedia pages reflecting it as such. Hamilton, Santa Barbara and San Francisco, IMO, does not warrant inclusion on these pages. Since 1979, I have known Hollywood North to be Vancouver and Vancouver alone. Any other city using it is just hijacking the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KeroDoe ( talk • contribs) 01:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
LOL. Three days including traffic jams from Bakersfield I guess. Usually do-able in two days with a break around Eugene or Medford, admittedly with hard-ball driving (Eugene's a good 8-9 hrs from Vancouver, not including border-crossing times or Seattle traffic). We used to reckon on it taking about 22 hours or so to reach LA....driving at "Canadian speeds" though maybe. "Two to three days" I guess isn't too much; I winced at the three days, more like 2.5, at least via I-5 if not 101, with stop at Medford/Ashland and Stockton/Modesto.... Skookum1 ( talk) 16:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Montreal has never, or perhaps very rarely, been associated with the term Hollywood North; there were no citations for this usage in ref to that city present, nor are many likely to be found; the Frenc-language industry in particular does not affect the term; this is not about which Canadian cities have film productions, it's about places where the term Hollywood North has been used for. The Just for Laughs festival, for example, has nothing to do with film/TV anyway (other than it's taped and broadcast). Winnipeg and Halifax, however, have been associated with the Hollywood North idea, more along the lines of the Vancouver context than the Toronto one; Winnipeg more than Halifax, I think; I'm in Hali so will ask my industry contacts if they feel the term applies to them, but it's not hyped as such at all so I didn't even try to include it in the article. The blurbs about one-time usages in California in the lede continue to stick out as out-of-place and WP:Undue weight; Sundance is just Sundance, if there's a mention of it as Hollywood North that must be more to do with the transplanted glitz during the festival than with the workaday context in Vancouver which is the origin and primary usage of the term. Skookum1 ( talk) 11:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Please see here. Skookum1 ( talk) 00:13, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Haliwood is the local term in Halifax for its film industry; fairly citable, just noting it here for later article-creation use. Trailer Park Boys, LEXX, Paul Kimball's UFO/ghost shows etc etc etc. Skookum1 ( talk) 00:15, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
the cite from a Philadelphia paper says only "Toronto could easily claim the title of Hollywood North," while the article conflates this to "Since 1985, Toronto has associated itself with the nickname 'Hollywood North'". Sayiing some where could claim something and using that to "prove" that that city's rebranding effort dates back to 1985 is entirely spurious; I should remove the whole phrase because as a concept Hollywood North did not even become current until after that date, and only in reference to Vancouver (ever since when Toronto's been retooling its meaning, including puffy press making conflated claims exactly like this one). Skookum1 ( talk) 07:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
As far as the spam-based removal of the FILMPORT item re Toronto, from Hollywood North Report (an independent magazine), why was that reference considered spam and the one from PORTAL itself left intact, along with the press-release/spam-like quality of that whole bit of content, which is only there to promote Toronto's film industry and has nothing to do with Hollywood North as a concept/name? This article isn't about Toronto's film industry, it's about the term Hollywood North Skookum1 ( talk) 07:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Can someone explain why there are several books being mentioned in the article section of the article? None of these books link to their own pages and it is unclear what role they serve in the article aside from promotion of those books? If those books have had an impact or play a prominent role in relation to vancouver film it should be noted somehow. I have not seen other articles reffering to other books similar to its subject just for the sake of it. Brodey ( talk) 19:41, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
There is no problem with including references that are relevant to the article, however as mentioned these books seem to serve no purpose but to promote themselves. No explanation has been given as to the importance of any of these books especially the one listed in the opening paragraph. Why does that books deserve mention to the term in equal reference to vancouver and toronto and canada?? There is a film set in toronto called hollywood north, it is not placed in the header paragraph due to the fact it is not important enough on its own to the term "Hollywood North". It seems that any book with the title vancouver and "hollywood north" has been randomly thrown into the article. Brodey ( talk) 06:49, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
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I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Hollywood North and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. |
Looking over the references, one does not exist (labelled 30), see . That being said the reference formatting of the other book references appear to be sufficient, and one appears to link to a review to attest/verify that the book exists. That being said, it is the opinion of this editor that the mention of the books in the Vancouver section are not necessary, and if they are to be included anywhere in this article it is to verify article content as references themselves, or in a Further reading section. For information on including a Further reading section please see WP:FURTHER.— RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 19:20, 11 June 2011 (UTC) |
The books have been placed in a further reading section, if any one wants to find out more on the issues that is a place where they can look. Regardless of who wrote the book they seemed to just float in the article without actually being incorporated. Wikipeida 3rd opinion has been given it is the fairest view at this point compared to us just fighting it out. As for issues of bias if anyone was to look at the toronto section before a reformatting was started in the last few days they would be shocked at the state it was in, containing numerous factual inaccuracies that have been corrected. i.e 'Hollywood North' is new title it has adopted. Only if 30+ years or media reference is considered new I suppose. Either way we should calm down, all I want to see is fairness in the article, not at the cost of making this whole article into one giant puff piece. Brodey ( talk) 08:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I have elected that this article undergo a peer review: Wikipedia:Peer review/Hollywood North/archive1. The talk page was archived because it was oversized, and also to give our reviewers an 'untainted' opinion of the article. Editors interested in reviewing previous conversations may visit the archived discussions via the archive box to the right. Mkdw talk 11:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
note: "Hollywood North" is not a film industry term. Variety, the most well-known and respected film industry trade magazine does not refer to Canada or any of its cities or Provences as "Hollywood North" but rather as Canada's more well-known slang term, "The Great White North". This article is an advertisement for Canada in the guise of information about a "so-called" film industry term which is not even used in the film industry. It is, however, an advertising term that has been coined by Canadians who are trying to use subsidy schemes and attempting the misappropriation of the "Hollywood" name itself to try to lure U.S. film productions away from the real Hollywood. This is confusing (as there is already a "Hollywood" as well as a very real city of "North Hollywood"); and to call Canada "Hollywood" is just not factual, but misleading. This page should be renamed "The Great White North Film Production" or deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Donteatyellowsnow ( talk • contribs)
Top Entertainment Industry Mag, Variety references to "The Great White North" and does NOT reference "Hollywood North" when referring to Canada.
Videotron won't pay in fund fracas Cabler unhappy with fund's management
"Videotron, one of Canada's leading cable operators, has decided to stop financing the Canadian Television Fund, one of the main motors of TV production in the Great White North."
Posted: Wed., Jan. 24, 2007, 4:00pm PT
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117958021.html
Posted: Wed., Jan. 10, 2007, 2:14pm PT
Alliance Atlantis sold for $2 billion CanWest and Goldman Sachs pony up
"CanWest, which has print and broadcasting assets in Canada and radio and television interests in Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, missed the boat on the pay television explosion in Canada. However, the AAC acquisition further entrenches CanWest as one of the two largest media companies in the Great White North."
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117957101.html
WGN to 'Gas' up on Canuck series World Brief
Posted: Sun., Nov. 26, 2006, 6:17pm PT
"'Corner Gas' draws around 1.5 million viewers in the Great White North; the fourth season is airing on CTV. Created by and starring Brent Butt, the sitcom is about life in the fictional prairie town of Dog River, Saskatchewan."
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117954523.html
Donteatyellowsnow 04:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Variety magazine - Canucks consider their options: "Hollywood North has in fact geared up for an unprecedented surge in film and TV service work"
Variety magazine - Exex seek Calif. job growth, tourism boost: Eisner calls for relief to stop runaway film prod'n: According to Eisner, it can be $4 million-$6 million cheaper to shoot a film in Canada. "The issue is real and should be addressed. It's almost become part of the entertainment culture that there's a Hollywood and there's a Hollywood in the North."
-- Ckatz chat spy 04:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a vote for all. A disambig. link is a great idea and contributes to Wikipedia's clickability. However, what that disambig links to is another question. We'll vote:
From the Protologism article in Wiktionary[:
How humorous that this term would be invoked by someone complaining about lack of citability. The ongoing superfluous and very POV alterations of this article by Yellowsnow are well into the pale of the well-defined term "Vandalism", however.... Skookum1 00:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
See Hollywood (disambiguation) for a full listing of the many places named Hollywood, or with names derived from the Hollywood film industry (e.g. Bollywood, Lollywood....there's also "Brollywood", another nickname for Vancouver but that doesn't have as much currency as HN). And also see, as Mkdw as already pointed you to, WP:SNOW, meaning that you're way out of line and your deletion agenda "doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell". Skookum1 03:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy to include San Francisco, Santa Barbara, Ulan Bataar, Narvik or anywhere else in the article if there is something behind it. I've looked into the sources for the recent edits and I'm finding that they don't support the assertions made in the article. I’ll start with the section that my heading comes from.
Again, your bias leads you to delete and put anything I edit under a microscope after-the-fact. A microscope that NONE of your sources could hold up to (and why this page was up for deletion as the "nonsense" in the first place).
Yet what about these "so-called" sources which you don't ever question (just to name A HALF DOZEN... there's more):
8. ^ CBC: Searched for 'Hollywood North'. CBC News. Retrieved on 2007-01-02. (how can a search count as a source? -- this is nonsense. AND the search was limited to just CBC news. Again, Canadian bias)
9. ^ "Hollywood North Vancouver". Google Inc.. Retrieved on 2007-01-01. (ditto: a search used as a source when half the searches turn up PR sites and/or people selling something regarding almost anything. PLUS it is limited to Vancouver.)
11. ^ New numbers confirm Toronto's rank as Hollywood North. City of Toronto. Retrieved on 2007-01-01. (propaganda: use of the term by the very people benefiting/creating the use of the term does not count as a source for reference).
13. ^ "Hollywood North Toronto". Google Inc.. Retrieved on 2007-01-01. (again a search is used as a reference and is limited to those containing Toronto -- bias, vague, not a real source)
14. ^ a b Hollywood North: The Canadian film industry. Statistics Canada. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (Statistics and propaganda from the Canadian government which is benefiting financially from the subsidy scheme).
26. ^ Some 'useless' facts about Vancouver. Vancouver dot Travel. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (Okay: this reference is CALLED "USELESS FACTS" it is also a travel-realted reference. You did NOT question this though!)
27. ^ Mayor's Office Release. City of Vancouver. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (again... propaganda/PR in an effort to promote his city for film business/ runaway productions)
32. ^ What Makes Canada Cool. Canadacool.com. Retrieved on 2006-12-24. (This is the equivalent of "Useless Facts" - It is vague and undetermined what if anything really is "cool" and totally subjective)
Unlike most of my sources you have cited NONE absolutely NONE that define the term "Hollywood North" or that even discuss it. You have framed all of your research around Canada only. That is why there needs to be another page dedicated to all these lists of useless production statistics about Canada called "The Canadian Film Industry" and this page should just be about the colloquialism "Hollywood North" which has been used to describe just about any location outside of Hollywood, California that is to the North.
I've just replaced San Francisco with Greed as the earliest film to be shot in San Francisco (it predates the former by twelve years).
I have two concerns about the quote from the San Francisco travel book ("Some of filmdom's most important studios are camped in the Bay Area and the local film industry is frequently referred to as 'Hollywood North'."):
1) The quote provides no indication as to how long San Francisco has been refered to as Hollywood North. True, American feature films have been shot in the city for over eight decades, but this in no way means that San Francisco has been known as Hollywood North for a similar length of time. I am hoping that the guide provides more information than what is contained in the quote.
2) In his posting of 22:49, 30 January 2007, JGGardiner relates that s/he was unable to locate the quote in the book. Would Donteatyellowsnow please provide a page number? Victoriagirl 01:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The absurdity of Donteatyellowsnow's claims and accusations increases with each examination of his/her "contributions". The amount of energy put into researching non sequitur facts, then posing them as distractions, has been rather interesting, and it's true that casual use of Hollywood North, in the days of Mary Pickford and Charlie Chaplin, might have included Stockton and SF; but SF never went around promoting itself as Hollywood North - which granted is certainly done by Toronto, and incraesingly to a degree by Vancouver (but with a different context and origin). Yellowsnow's problem is that such promotions are not valid because he/she says they're not, because it's some kinf of insult to Hollywood or whatever. In my mental notes on this in the last few days, following the resumed edit war, I've begun to refer to Yellowsnow as "the Dissembler from the LA Film Office" or some other Cailfornia-industry body intent on undermining the perceieved threat of the Hollywood North "brand" to Hollywood's presumed integrity and uniqueness. We can't help what has become a common term, albeit with different meanings in Vancouver vs Toronto and also as it happens on the occasional bit of casual use for places within the US. As for Brollywood, Bollywood and Lollywood, what's the name of that big studio near London, one of the older film sound stages/backlots in the UK - "somethingwood Studios", just can't remember its name right now. Point is I think Donteatyellowsnow may be a professional p.r. person who's been assigned to "go after" the Hollywood North label. A simple LA-fanatic and cinephile mania isn't enough to warrant or justify or account for the nasty behaviour and outright dissembling of the last few weeks; I think there's a budget at work here, but can't guess at whose. Not specifically, but I've seen all the hallmarks of professional p.r./advertising campaigns at play here. Still makes me wonder which corporate network was the point of origin that IP address SPA, possible sockpuppet, that appeared on the RD. I'm amused that Yellowsnow has now fessed up to US usages, howevermuch obscure, for Hollywood North as within the US. Maybe he's meaning Mary Tyler Moore's Minneapolis-St. Paul? :-) Skookum1 08:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
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"In 2000, cuts to Toronto's film and television subsidies meant that the nickname of "Hollywood North" was still primarily associated with Vancouver" appears in the "Toronto" section. The source actually only says that the venture has declined but it only implies a decline in the use of the term and does not note it directly. Although it is a logical step, I'm concerned that is a bit of WP:OR. I won't remove it for now because it is probably worth noting the decline but it should be rewritten to maintain consistency with the source. And yes, I am aware that it was likely placed by a Canadian (without having checked). -- JGGardiner 09:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I am going to remove the Sundance (Entertainment Tonight) reference that I had a problem with above. Besides the source problem, it appears as a single usage anyway. If somebody would like to note that the term is also used in such an ad hoc fashion, that's fine but I don't think that we need to list every instance of that use. -- JGGardiner 09:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have just deleted the 'Origin of the term "Hollywood North"' section and thought it best to discuss my reasoning. The first paragraph was removed because the reference, a travel guide entitled San Francisco, appears not to contain the information that has been quoted. Requests for a page reference, made to to the editor who supplied this information, have gone unanswered. [7] [8] The second paragraph does not refer to the origin of the term. This information has been moved to the 'San Francisco and the Silicon Valley' section.
Two changes have been made to the 'Canada and Runaway production' section. The first concerns the removal of the statement that Canadians "appropriated" the term "Hollywood North". One cannot appropriate a term unless it was already in use. Though I think it likely that "Hollywood North" existed as a term prior to its use in reference to Toronto, Vancouver or the Canadian film industry, no verifiable information has yet been supplied. I have also removed the claim that the term has "allegedly" been in use since 1981. The reference, a Globe and Mail article from 8 September 1981, backs up this information.
Other changes are, I feel, self-evident: two citation requests and the removal of redundant links. Victoriagirl 20:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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We have to remember that, as Wikipedia editors, we can not make our own authoritative statements. Saying that something is the "first-known" of whatever qualifies. We can say that Jean Doe says it is but we can't say it ourselves. Because we are not experts. "First-known" means known to mankind. The Lonely Planet book is just the first known to DEYS and the rest of us here. Not to put down google searches but our research efforts are not exactly exhaustive. =) -- JGGardiner 08:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
This section had many huge NPOV issues such as using 'Canadians' in a general term instead of Canada or Canadian Government. Other problems included words such as 'self-claimed', 'self-given', etc. and until references can be found have been removed. However those statement words have a WP:SNOW chance of being references because they're impossible to prove and many US references refer to Canada as Hollywood North. I also have a problem with "Pay Television" by The Globe and Mail, 8 September 1981 pg 7 reference as The Globe and Mail does not mark its pages as such. A7, B2 etc. are page numbers in which Global Media uses to number their newspapers. Also the date stamp is in the American format which makes me think that is a falsified reference. Mkdw talk 22:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Also there are no references that refer to San Fran as Hollywood North. This section should be deleted. If you do a google search "Hollywood North San Francisco" there are 0 search results. Mkdw talk 22:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of reaching consensus, I'd like to begin discussion about what information concerning the film Hollywood North should be included in the article. The setting and period of this film has twice been removed [16] [17]. I question these deletions:
1) No explanation has been given for the removal of information that the film takes place in Toronto. As the city is one of several locations that has been tagged with the term "Hollywood North", it would appear that this fact is highly relevant.
2) The year in which the film takes place - 1979 - was removed with the explanation "confusing if the film was made in 1979 - irrelevant fact". In fact, the film was released in 2003, a fact contained in the article. I think the year in which the film takes place is relevant, particularly as it relates to the Canadian industry as it existed in the 'seventies (and not 2003). I think the previous wording ("A movie, Hollywood North, starring Matthew Modine, was released in 2003. It was set in Toronto in 1979, detailing the struggles of two Canadian film producers.") was in no way confusing.
Finally, I would propose that the words "fictional feature film" be replaced by the more accurate " mockumentary" or "mockumentary feature film".
I look forward to hearing from other users on these issues. Victoriagirl 07:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Given the attempts by most contributors to this article to reach some sort of balanced, encyclopedic article have been mostly frustrated, I suggest that it's time to take this article to Wikipedia:Request comment on articles. The commentary on that dispute resolution procedure suggests getting a third opinion (I had also thought of asking for the assistance of an "outside" admin, like someone listed in Australian Wikipedia administrators or something similar). Any thoughts? Agent 86 08:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The Judy Steed reference doesn't have a link, an ISBN, a name of the article or a name of the publication. I think this should be removed if it cannot be verified.
Also I disagree with all the moves to put San Francisco at the bottom of the page when clearly that was the FIRST KNOWN use of the slang "Hollywood North" as San Francisco has had a thriving film community for much longer than the 10 years that Canada has tried to create one. Also it is stated in print that San Francisco is KNOWN as that, that is a definition and is the first definition. Nobody here has any print definition of Canada or any of the competing Canadian cities that defines any of them as "Hollywood North". Mere mentions of the name don't count (per Wiki rules of source criteria). Therefore SF should come first in the order of this page and all other cities should be considered for removal unless there is a PRINT definition, not just 'mention' (since you guys deleted the other U.S. cities such as Seattle).
I also think that this might be a good time to break Hollywood North off from the statistics of various filmmaking locations. Maybe this page should just be about the slang term and be a sort of disamb. page and have links to the various other filmmaking pages (i.e. Canadian film industry and U.S. ones) or whatnot. Some of the stats are also questionable and read as advertisements or are unproveable (such as many in the Toronto section -- ie. about the realtively new Toronto film fest being a precursor to the Oscars or even that it is the "premiere" film festival of North America (kind of a Johnny Come Lately in that respect -- with many other film festivals having much more weight and longer histories). BTW, how do those stats separate American exports (ie. runaway prods) from true "Toronto" productions (they are all glommed in there together as if they are one and the same stats). If an American film shoots in Toronto it is not a "Canadian export" necessarily -- so those stats are likely misleading. Donteatyellowsnow
The source that is cited for this is the arts and culture page for Toronto and does not say any of this: "Toronto is the third-largest television production centre in North America,[31] just behind Vancouver and Los Angeles; the city ranks second as an exporter of televison programming in North America.[32]" ^ Toronto Facts. City of Toronto. Retrieved on 2007-01-14. I think this should be deleted. Or re-sourced. - Donteatyellowsnow
I'm not real sure why film festival posters are doing on this article? At least the Toronto section mentions their festival, but I didn't see a link to the Vancouver one. Regardless, I think this article is suppose to be about the film making industry and references to any film festivals from SF, Toronto, and Vancouver should go (both pics and content). Film festivals are about showing the films, not making them, and since they are all "internationl" festivals that means at least some of the films were not made in the city holding the festival. Otherwise maybe Seattle needs to be added, they have a film festival, they're north of Hollywood, and some movies are filmed there too. Aboutmovies 04:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The toronto film festival is actually pretty relevant when relating the term hollywood north to toronto. That term experiences greater usage amongst the public and media during the festival as well one of the factors for the media labelling of toronto as hollywood north has to do with all the publicity that surrounds the TIFF. Not to mention the festivals relation as the un-official start of the oscar races.
-- Duhon, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Worth a comment here that Donteatyellowsnow, during the AFD or another round of this page's sorry fracas, went looking for trouble and found some other articles which he had to take a poke at; as I recall it was the List of ghost towns article, where you'll find a piqued and nasty comment edit by DEYS in the edit history, about a topic area he knows absolutely nothing about (which I do). So here we have another example of DEYS doing "predatory" Wiki-ing - going after an opponent, either by digging up what he thinks is dirt on them, or by finding other articles to stalk them at. Minor stalking, perhaps, as with the ghost towns edit, and more pathetically amusing than anything else. Donteatyellowsnow can associate himself all he wants with the puerile bleatings of HongQiGong and his simplistic condemnations of me, or with Aboutmovies' attempts to wage wordwar against me on Talk:Oregon Country - where, in the wake of the latest round of accusations and sophomoric dissembling on terms I got tired for the fracas and did the "disengage" (well, except for a bit below...). I have better and far more worthwhile things to do on this planet than argue with sophomoric nitpickers (on Oregon Country and as in HongQiGong's case - though both antagaonists have degrees, you'd never know it with some comments/references made....I don't have a degree, so don't need an excuse ;-) and paranoid childishness (Donteatyellowsnow and a certain rp) that also happens to be associated with SPA-type activity and a particlar agenda (DYES' is trivial by comparison to many others, granted). And yes, these other topics don't belong in this discussion but Doneatyellowsnow thinks that they do, and that character assassination is not only a legimate pasttime but also relevant to getting rid of one of his more pointed critics in this discussion. Pointed, and I've even held my tongue becawsue the inanity and virulent hostility of Donteatyellowsnow's activities is naueating (and no, Langara College, he's not the only one here with a professional interest in the film industry - there's at least two others of us - and "professional" is hardly a word I would use to describe Donteatyellowsnow, except in the capacity/context of "professional p.r. man" or "professional spin doctor". A lot of the twisting of truth and hateful, whiney invective inserted into the article by DYES reminds me of nothing so much as American-style political attack ads, in fact; and I don't need to go looking in DYES' edit history to find ugly things about him to point out; you don't have to read far into the edit history of the article or the talkpage here to find some bit of perverse nuttiness and deceitful, manipulating edits done by DYES. So he can go and join HongQiGong's little hate-Skookum1 club (and it's Skookum1, not "SKOOKUM") and pretend to be all morally superior in the same end of the self-righteous mudpatch. Oh, I'm sorry was that a personal attack? Maybe you should try not making them youself, then, DYES? Trying to provoke me into a block? Hell, even in the last week, while just watching you nonsense going on here, I've still contributed and edited in other areas as I'm not an SPA (as you are); your campaign here has nothing to do with truth, but with an attempt to distort and evenb denounce the truth (which you also sought to get deleted), and built on a clear and well-articulated group hatred of Canadians and the Canadian film industry by someone with ties or some other strange form of jingoistic loyalty to Hollywood; it's got "agenda" written all over it, as well as rather elaborate measures and drastic edits and attack attitudes right and left. Skookum1
I'm bored with it, and with you; and can't see how Wikipedia can survive in the long run if belligerent, half-informed combatants with axes to grind (including yourself, HongQiGong, etc) can be stubborn and vocal - and childish and stubborn and rude - enough to make sure they get their way, as all the sane people will have left; or gone insane trying to communicate with the incommunicable. Whatever. Go play some mah johngg with HongQiGong and talk over the burning issues of Chinese immigration to Canada (a topic I'm sure you're interested in and must know a lot about, which HQG doesn't despite knowing all about it, or rather only what he wants to know about it...), and maybe brush up on the Oregon Treaty and the Oregon boundary dispute so you can wade into the fray and "fight the good fight" there, too. Speaking of people being canvassed to take on the big skookum in the fray (hi Aboutmovies; recusing myself from Wiki overall lately, and bored with the nitpicking; JQ Adams isn't exactly a "diplomat" , and citing another American source is still yet more evidence of the APOV tilt that you can't seem to see or think outside of, never mind that you theory about "joint occupation" is, ultimately, original research...and also POV because it was a political rant you cited, not a diplomatic note or correspondence). But back to DYES - you've had no problems deleting and distorting history here; why not do it all over Wikipedia? Skookum1 08:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC) Skookum1 08:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Getting back on point, the question is ‘what are film festival posters doing as illustrations on this article?’ I think the posters should be taken out. In Vancouver, VIFF has virtually nothing to do with Hollywood productions filming in the City. The Vancouver festival screens hundreds of films each year from all over the world, of which no more than two or three are Hollywood productions. The Toronto festival is a bit different, because while it also screens hundreds of films from all over the world, it tends to include a dozen or so high-profile Hollywood productions. Much of the news coverage of TIFF, therefore, focuses on the Hollywood stars attending premieres of their movies in Toronto. But even that is only peripherally related to the concept of Hollywood north; i.e. Hollywood productions being filmed in Toronto.-- Mathew5000 20:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
All these articles make mention of "hollywood north" when discussing the TIFF [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] I find it highly naieve that you believe that there is no relation to the festival and the nickname "hollywood north" in toronto, it is very well documented. the fact that the festival plays heavilly into the oscar races is another factor to its Hollywood connection. the TIFF plays moreso to the hollywood crowds than does cannes even. TIFF has never been labeled as "cannes west" its an entirely different entity. I will try to explain in the article more the connection between the festival and the term to make it more clear.-- Duhon 14 February 2007
The funniest bit I've seen all night is on one of DEYS' recruitment canvasses, which I happened to look at:
there are a handful of them that associate with him
Meaning me, of course. ROTFL. I'm not actually sure any of the other BC/Canadian Wikipedians want to be associated with me; we just all happen to give a shit about BC-related articles and that's why we're "fed-up Canadians". I'm fed up with the Americanization of the history of the Oregon boundary dispute, and of American jingoism rampant (well, sometimes soft-pedalled and even unintentional, but still biased when not fully jingoite) throughout most articles involving cross-border issues. Hell, we haven't even started on
Salmon War yet, huh?
Skookum1
08:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
"Canada, oh yeah, that's up north somewhere. Past Bakersfield, right?" The LA-myopia of the perspective that SF and other non-LA California cities are also Hollywood North, simply by being north of Hollywood, reminds me of those satirical maps/aerial views of the US that show up on New Yorker covers, with only Manhattan and the other boroughs, with a slim line of New Jersey in the distance, and only some indication the rest of the US, never mind the world exists. Something like the script in the CN Tower, if it's still playing since I heard it, that Yonge Street is the world's longest street because if runs all the way to Vancouver. The equivocation of the most widely-recognized meaning(s) of Hollywood North here is getting more than a bit annoying; the primary usages of Hollywood North do not concern casual quips or general references about an amorphous backlot consisting of the rest of the continent outside LA, they concern the Canadian film industry and the urban persona/naming/branding of Vancouver and Toronto in particular. Trying to please those who maintain those are inconsequential and that the real meaning is cities in northern California, or perhaps Seattle or Utah.....gimme a break. Actually, no, no one's giving anyone a break around here, huh? This whole affair is absurd but in and of itself will make an interesting bit of history one day, both on the film industry end of things and also within Wikipedia. The issue of film festivals raised by Aboutmovies above is actually one of the defining parameters of the difference between the usage as applied/used differently by/in/about Vancouver vs Toronto, which was a subject of discussion here before DYES raised the battle standard over whether or not the term/article should even exist, and how its mere usage by Canadians is an affront to the film industry; from my end so is Toronto's appropriation and recultivation of the term, but I can live with that as by definition a parallel, though derivative and different version/usage; whatever other casual uses it may have elsewhere, the Canadian milieu and the images of each of those two cities are primary; and one of the differences is that in TO the existence of TIFF is pointed at as a demonstration of WHY Toronto IS Hollywood North (as opposed to anywhere else that might claim the title, or have previously earned it....) when in Vancouver, VIFF has nothing to do with it except by way of somewhat common cocktail crowd, and the occasional luminary in town to shoot a flick who might show up at the gala, or at least promote their own films; the difference in the film festivals is their different repertoires/menus, also, with Vancouver specializing on world productions and experimental/political stuff, Toronto vying for a place as a "great mainstream festival" or whatever expression might be used. Toronto's vision of Hollywood North, is as I've said before, based oround glamour and glitter and, yes, sharing in the limelight of the Big Industry, while Vancouver's is about a working environment and no developed star machine/branding concerning the city; it's hardly something Tourism Vancouver promotes in the same was as Toronto's tourism marketing does there. That said, this is all irrespective of the ongoing problem with the dissembler who's been such a pain here; actually sorting out the defintions/usages is impossible in the current air of conflicting realities; what is happening here is that someone with POV agenda is successfully defraying proper editing and now is presuming to want moderation/conciliation at the same time as continuing to attack the article, as well as other editors, with relative impunity. There's a lot in the article I think is superfluous from the Vancouver end of what Hollywood North means to and about that city; but the same things absent in Vancouver's self-image as Hollywood North are what defines Toronto's own variant/cooptation. Yes, Toronto is wanting to steal Hollywood's thunder, branding-wise; Vancouver's context is rather than it's an extension of the LA machine, as opposed to being one of its own. And THAT difference is a much bigger and more relevant difference than any one-time or occasional use to refer to Spokane, Boise, Denver, Fargo or wherever..... Skookum1 05:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems especially in the case of san fransisco a city tour guide is being presented as a legitimate book [32] as well as the claim that this is the first written usage of the term hollywood north in 2004, even though the same travel book (toronto edition) as well in 2004 refers to toronto as being the "hollywood of the north" [33]
Are we actually going to be using these as legitimate sources for the article?
--- Duhon February 10th 2007
As someone who lives in San Francisco, I can honestly say I've never heard of our fair city referred to as "Hollywood North". There is a small neighborhood by Candlestick known as "Little Hollywood", Treasure Island is frequently used as a movie set, and there are a lot of filmmakers and support infrastructure in the area, but the use of the term and the industry's importance to San Francisco's economy are minor relative to, say, IT, Finance, professional services, biotech, tourism.
I would further say that, with respect to the Bay Area as a whole, North Bay and East Bay have more significance in this industry than does Silicon Valley. And anyone who says the Silicon Valley is most likely from Southern California, as any self-respecting Bay Area resident knows it is just Silicon Valley. Similar to how you drive on 101 in the Bay Area while you drive on the 101 in Los Angeles.
A quick Google search for "Hollywood North" AND "Canada" turned up three times as many hits as did a Google search for "Hollywood North" AND "San Francisco". This wikipedia article was actually the first entry for that latter query. Searches for "Hollywood North" AND "Vancouver" or "Hollywood North" AND "Toronto" also turned up about twice as many hits as did the search for San Francisco. Upon performing a simple search for "Hollywood North", all the top ten hits were Canada-based. Results for "Hollywood North" AND "Bay Area" and "Hollywood North" AND "Silicon Valley" were miniscule.
Thus, I would humbly suggest that, while San Francisco and the Bay Area should certainly be mentioned in this article, I do not think it should be placed of higher importance than sections devoted to Canada, regardless of the history of the term. Its use is clearly more linked to Canada than it is to San Francisco or the Bay Area.
-- DaveOinSF 06:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree the sheer amount of evidence and sources points to a stronger correlation between the term and Canada in general as opposed to NoCal. -- Brodey 06:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the statements that used [34] as a reference as you will see that paragraph one, line one, does not say the specified quote nor does the book even use Hollywood north. Langara College 00:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the version prior to Donteatyellowsnow's two edit earlier this evening. While I feel my edit summary adequately explained my reasoning, I thought it best to explain the changes here as well. Donteatyellowsnow's explanation for these edits was 1) restoring definition / removing broad statements and unsourced statements w/ factual" and 2) "reposition 1st city referred to as term in 1st position - pending further citation dev. on "1981" ref &/or actual Canadian definition ref". However, I do not feel that those edits are appropriate given the discussions on this page, and the contributions by a San Francisco-based editor. The rewrite of the lead paragraph, in which Vancouver and Toronto were placed before the California sites, was done by DaveOinSF, based on his information that the term "Hollywood North" is not in common use for the city. As for the "reposition" edit, this was done because "Dont" is challenging the validity of the Globe and Mail reference - a citation that has been properly formatted according to Wikipedia guidelines, and verified by a reputable contributor. Given these conditions, I felt it was appropriate to restore the previous version (incorporating "Dont"'s extra references) while we continue this discussion. Thoughts? -- Ckatz chat spy 05:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Y'know, one of the folks around here used to be a reporter and still has their own style guides; he won't have the San Francisco Chronicle's style guide but it's a propos at this point, given DEYS comment here, to call the editorial room of the Chronicle and ask if their style guide, or Associated Press' or anyone's in the US, has "Hollywood North" in it, and what they use it for...If San Francisco regards itself as Hollywood North, or anyone else but DEYS and the Lonely Planet guidebooks does, it's legitimate as another usage. But if Bakersfield and Stockton are somehow "Hollywood North" because of backlots there, might I suggest the Hollywood page be retitled "West Brooklyn" or "Staten Island West", because Hollywood was after all a series of runaway productions from the New York film industry of the time..... Skookum1 19:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I've introduced a reference indicating "Hollywood North" as a nickname for Vancouver. [35] In the interests of furthering this article along I thought I might present the quote on this page: "The idea that British Columbia's feature film industry is a dis-placed cinema is written into the nicknaming of Vancouver, the proviince's centre of film production, as 'Hollywood North' or 'Brollywood.'" [Mike Gasher. Hollywood North: The Feature Film Industry in British Columbia. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press, 2002. p. 8.] Victoriagirl 05:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Ckatz chat spy 20:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)"Take advantage of Vancouver's reputation as Hollywood North (sometimes called Brollywood North during the November rainy season.) These are some of Western Canada's best places for celebrity watching. After a hard day on the set, the movie crews and stars come to eat and relax, see and be seen."
It (Brollywood - I've never seen it in the "Brollywood North" combo though) surfaced, I remember, during the David Duchovny/Tia Leone thing years ago, i.e. Duchovny saying his wife didn't like the rain here, and the media jumping all over him about it. Brollywood is a straightforward take on the often-hundreds, or at least dozens, of umbrellas seen around each film set/circus during some of the "best" of our weather; it's more a reference to having to shoot in the rain, vs. Hollywood North describing the working environment in general. Still hear it now and then, always as a quip/joke in passing....never as a monicker/"tag" like Hollywood North. I may have an old copy of a start-up mag called Role-Call here from 1989, and I'll see if we used it in there (I was its editor), although I know "Hollywood North" was already current at the time, though in more of an awkward "gee - who, us?!" kind of way than a brag/boast or "theft" of Hollywood's allure; again the difference between Vancouver's and TO's usages of the term is the branchplant working environment on the one hand vs the glamour mill/media machine on the other. One is an attempt to ride on Hollywood's coattails and steal some spotlight; the other, original, Canadian usage (Vancouver), has to do with being dragged along behind Hollywood's coattails, and in the spotlight whether you like it or not. The funny part about DEYS' hostility towards me is that I actually agree that Toronto's use IS advertising/promotion, and in the worst way; but the broader general Canadian usage, and the original Vancouver usage, are NOT advertising/promotion but just a reflection of being backlots for LA (or Toronto, for that matter, as is often the case lately). Skookum1 20:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I just want to remind of everyone to mind the civility of their comments. I know that some editors feel that they’ve moved past the point of AGF in this discussion, and I can understand that. However, it is important that everyone maintain their civility even in those circumstances.
And please evaluate each edit on its own merit. Even a problematic editor or one not acting in good faith can make some good edits. So stick to the content not the contributors. I realize that this article has been a challenge for everyone but the best thing for the article is if everyone can maintain the community standards of the project.
I know that it is easy and I too have had to watch what I say and I edit a few posts before I’ve submitted them. When things are heated it is important to look at one’s own actions and make sure that they appropriate. And please remember that it is not acceptable to act badly towards an editor because they did the same to you first. It will take some conscious effort on the part of everyone involved, myself included, but I'd like to see this discussion turned around. Thanks everyone. -- JGGardiner 22:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to throw the cat among the pigeons, I was on a Seymour Street bus last night (not often downtown) and happened to notice the Hollywood North nightclub, which is upstairs in one of the only buildlings on the east side of Seymour between Robson and Smithe (the rest is parking lot or garage). It's not big deal on the Vancouver night life circuit (such as it is), but still in business. I say "still" because I remember it from the Expo summer (1986) when it was one of three clubs on Seymour dubbed "the Playpen", this particular one being "Playpen Central" (the Luv Affair, now extinct, was Playpen South, Systems - now The Drink - was Playpen North. I'll leave the reputation of this particular club aside but bringing it to mention its existence; and that its name was on that sign in at least 1986 (I saw it every day), and in those times in Vancouver if you did say Hollywood North you'd have to tell by context if it was the nightclub or the film industry association that was being made; but usually the former, in fact, although by the end of the next year the momentum on the latter side was on the roll. I should note that AFAIK the club wasn't named as a part of any attempt to ride the film industry's bandwagon, but had been arrived at independently; maybe even it's at fault in getting The Province to notice the name and hype it; although, again, the term was growing within the industry before the newspapers got wind of it - and who knows, maybe the presence of the club name helped move that along or even spawn it. I guess the way to prove the vintage of the club's name and sign is in city business license records (or BC liquor license records?). Skookum1 23:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Just saw WilyD's latest attempts to keep this page encyclopedic, and DEYS rapid-fire attempts to turn it back into an editorial on those mean ol' Canadians making life hard for the California film industry. DEYS' latest funny is his allegation in an edit comment that Americans aren't allowed to edit this page (which doesn't explain why he still can and does, huh?) and that his version of the article is "correct". This nuttiness has gone on long enough; I don't see what's going to be useful here - a mediation, an arbitration, or what? What I do think is that if DEYS pulls another sequence of edits like this morning, and takes that third step and violates the 3RR rule, then it's high time to try and get a block on this SPA. But in the meantime, it's fun picking apart his wildly paranoiac rationalizations and pretentious "correct definitions" which nobody else uses or has even heard. Whatever (Hi, yellowsnow! how's the watered-down beer?); the weird part here is I tried to pull a revert on one but WilyD beat me to it..... Skookum1 19:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
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Upon reading your entry on "Hollywood North", I would like to point out that San Francisco is not referred to as Hollywood North in entertainment circles here in California. Although I cannot cite a source, George Lucas foray into setting up his production studio in the Bay Area caused him to coin the term "his Hollywood North", a term which is attributed to the nickname as used for Vancouver, Canada. In fact, Toronto has laid claim to the name after it has been used and in existence for quite some time. I wanted to make some contributions to your entry but having read the discussion, the impression appears that you may not allow for any additional contribution to the subject and any efforts to add or edit will only be reverted.
Secondly, I would like to add that the use "two to three days drive" in regards to the proximity of "Hollywood" to "Los Angeles" is trivial and should not be included. It is common practice in this industry to have things shipped, parceled out or flown. In many regards, equipment are rented at filming location (which is why Vancouver and Toronto are attractive for production).
The use of the term "Hollywood North" is highly debatable but the history behind the terminology should be included for historical purposes with an addendum to point out the dispute.
Inclusion of San Francisco should be rethought over as being "Hollywood North" since it is rarely, if ever, attributed as such and any such mention in the past was coincidental. Being in this industry here in California, we never refer to SF as being as such. However, the term is and has been attributed to the production centers in Vancouver. In addition, the City of Santa Barabara pens itself as Hollywood North due to the International Film Festival held there as well as a history in silent film making at the turn of the century.
Just my opinion and thoughts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KeroDoe ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The sections on Vancouver and Toronto contradict each other. In the Vancouver section it says: "Vancouver is North America's third-largest film centre,[23][24] just after Los Angeles and New York.[25][26][27] It is second to Los Angeles in television production in the world.[28]". On the other hand, the Toronto section claims: "Toronto ranks third in film and television production in North America[38] and ranks second as an exporter of television programming in North America.[39]. To me, these sentences have practically the same meaning. That's the problem of having to many references, it gives the illusion of accuracy but nobody cares whether the figures are actually correct or not. -- Voyager ( talk) 15:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Greetings & salutations. yesterday I added a link to a wikipedia article: List of films shot in Hamilton, Ontario and that link was removed by Ckatz with no explanation given for the removal. Also, keep in mind that in the "Canada" section of the article it states that Hollywood North "is now common for the term to be used to describe the entire Canadian film industry.[16][17]"...so with that I feel that link I added yesterday should not have been removed so I placed it back to the "See also" section of the article. Have a good day. Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 10:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree with your interpretation Nhl4hamilton. Just because the term is sometimes used to describe the Canadian industry as a whole, it doesn't mean that we have to deal with all of the minutiae of the industry. There are a million things that could be added if the door were really opened as you suggest. -- JGGardiner ( talk) 10:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
You should probably try to get Hamilton mentioned in the article with reliable sources first for the See also link to make any sense to the reader. Merely being in Canada does not automatically warrant inclusion. – Pomte 00:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Greetings. It was pointed out to me that the Internet Movie Database is not a good reliable source to use here on wikipedia. I would like to add a couple of sentences to the Canada section of this article that makes references to Hamilton, Onrario. What I would like to know is I have two sources that I would like to use for citations. One from the local Hamilton Spectator newspaper and the other from the Hamilton Film Office. Would these 2 sources be reliable ones to use here for citations in this article? Thanks. Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 03:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
t
Greetings. I've had some time to think over Ckatz idea of creating a seperate article titled List of Canadian Film Centres and I think it's a great idea. Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat 23:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
... welll i can't find a way to add a comment to i've added it here by "editing" a comment ...
Alliance Atlantis stopped all production in film (and almost all tv) in 2003 and though they continue to do distribution they should not be listed as a producer of films. i've made the changes in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.48.164 ( talk) 22:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Image:Hollywood North Movie.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 23:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I see we're close to a 3RR on this, I think needlessly. Hollywood North Report is indeed a major Canadian film industry website, even though only founded in 1999; not including it at least as a cite is an omission; it may be that it constitutes a spamlink if in the External Links, although IMO it's not; but it could at least be mentioned in the lead paragraph on the Canadian section where the Hollywood North book from 1981 is also mentioned. Skookum1 ( talk) 01:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, so much for that, I'm in no mood to have to deal with wiki-procedure because some fool arbitrarily put this on a list, and now there's elaborate procedure needed to get it reinstated. It's like saying "National Geographic" is a spam link for "Geography".....would somebody else please deal with this for me as I'm gonna get kinda testy if I have to argue for this link's obvious legitimacy? Reminds me of certain politicians who, under the Canadian system, can do things by fiat/unilteral action, then say "you can ask for a commission to get it changed back, but I might not agree to the commission" etc...too much arbitrary foolishness on Wikipedia is going to drive thos of us actually sane and knowledgeable away from this place..... Skookum1 ( talk) 07:50, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Despite the ambiguities, the general consensus is that the term "Hollywood North" is now attributed to multiple major film centers that is NOT Hollywood itself. I've been reading discussions debating in regards to where Hollywood North is attributed to and the origins of the term, I still find most of what I'm reading not being able to fully get the facts correct. Although it is claimed that the first appearance of the term was Mike Gasher's book, it is not. During the early 80's, Vancouver was starting to see a lot of Hollywood Runaway productions being filmed there. As an aspiring screenwriter, I took a lot of interest in the developing industry in Vancouver. The first time I saw the term "Hollywood North" first appeared in a new publication called Reel West and this is before Gasher's book was published and released. Out of curiosity, I purchased his book when it was first released with the thought that Gasher was "borrowing" the terminology or describing the Industry as it has now become to be known. Sadly, I cannot find any of these publications amongst my huge horde of stowed boxes but I do recall this clearly. In my opinion, Hollywood North was a media coinage and was directly referring to the burgeoning film industry in Vancouver. Having worked on the movie set of Runaway in 1984(no pun intended), those in the business here in California were already familiar with the term. I also recall at one point how the industry here was concerned about losing productions to Vancouver that Variety magazine then first used the term for their article. Again, I cannot directly cite this. Although Wikipedia allows inclusion only for verifiable information, I thought I would post this information and see if you can do your own research.
Finally, to include whatever city which has seen movie productions there is NOT a reason for inclusion. The use of the term is heavily used by the media as a way of describing the industry. When the movie For Keeps was filmed partly in Manitoba and the Press used the term, does that mean Winnipeg can also lay claim to being known as Hollywood North? It is a common term and its present use should not be a basis for including every film center on the wikipedia pages reflecting it as such. Hamilton, Santa Barbara and San Francisco, IMO, does not warrant inclusion on these pages. Since 1979, I have known Hollywood North to be Vancouver and Vancouver alone. Any other city using it is just hijacking the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KeroDoe ( talk • contribs) 01:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
LOL. Three days including traffic jams from Bakersfield I guess. Usually do-able in two days with a break around Eugene or Medford, admittedly with hard-ball driving (Eugene's a good 8-9 hrs from Vancouver, not including border-crossing times or Seattle traffic). We used to reckon on it taking about 22 hours or so to reach LA....driving at "Canadian speeds" though maybe. "Two to three days" I guess isn't too much; I winced at the three days, more like 2.5, at least via I-5 if not 101, with stop at Medford/Ashland and Stockton/Modesto.... Skookum1 ( talk) 16:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Montreal has never, or perhaps very rarely, been associated with the term Hollywood North; there were no citations for this usage in ref to that city present, nor are many likely to be found; the Frenc-language industry in particular does not affect the term; this is not about which Canadian cities have film productions, it's about places where the term Hollywood North has been used for. The Just for Laughs festival, for example, has nothing to do with film/TV anyway (other than it's taped and broadcast). Winnipeg and Halifax, however, have been associated with the Hollywood North idea, more along the lines of the Vancouver context than the Toronto one; Winnipeg more than Halifax, I think; I'm in Hali so will ask my industry contacts if they feel the term applies to them, but it's not hyped as such at all so I didn't even try to include it in the article. The blurbs about one-time usages in California in the lede continue to stick out as out-of-place and WP:Undue weight; Sundance is just Sundance, if there's a mention of it as Hollywood North that must be more to do with the transplanted glitz during the festival than with the workaday context in Vancouver which is the origin and primary usage of the term. Skookum1 ( talk) 11:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Please see here. Skookum1 ( talk) 00:13, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Haliwood is the local term in Halifax for its film industry; fairly citable, just noting it here for later article-creation use. Trailer Park Boys, LEXX, Paul Kimball's UFO/ghost shows etc etc etc. Skookum1 ( talk) 00:15, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
the cite from a Philadelphia paper says only "Toronto could easily claim the title of Hollywood North," while the article conflates this to "Since 1985, Toronto has associated itself with the nickname 'Hollywood North'". Sayiing some where could claim something and using that to "prove" that that city's rebranding effort dates back to 1985 is entirely spurious; I should remove the whole phrase because as a concept Hollywood North did not even become current until after that date, and only in reference to Vancouver (ever since when Toronto's been retooling its meaning, including puffy press making conflated claims exactly like this one). Skookum1 ( talk) 07:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
As far as the spam-based removal of the FILMPORT item re Toronto, from Hollywood North Report (an independent magazine), why was that reference considered spam and the one from PORTAL itself left intact, along with the press-release/spam-like quality of that whole bit of content, which is only there to promote Toronto's film industry and has nothing to do with Hollywood North as a concept/name? This article isn't about Toronto's film industry, it's about the term Hollywood North Skookum1 ( talk) 07:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Can someone explain why there are several books being mentioned in the article section of the article? None of these books link to their own pages and it is unclear what role they serve in the article aside from promotion of those books? If those books have had an impact or play a prominent role in relation to vancouver film it should be noted somehow. I have not seen other articles reffering to other books similar to its subject just for the sake of it. Brodey ( talk) 19:41, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
There is no problem with including references that are relevant to the article, however as mentioned these books seem to serve no purpose but to promote themselves. No explanation has been given as to the importance of any of these books especially the one listed in the opening paragraph. Why does that books deserve mention to the term in equal reference to vancouver and toronto and canada?? There is a film set in toronto called hollywood north, it is not placed in the header paragraph due to the fact it is not important enough on its own to the term "Hollywood North". It seems that any book with the title vancouver and "hollywood north" has been randomly thrown into the article. Brodey ( talk) 06:49, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
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I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Hollywood North and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. |
Looking over the references, one does not exist (labelled 30), see . That being said the reference formatting of the other book references appear to be sufficient, and one appears to link to a review to attest/verify that the book exists. That being said, it is the opinion of this editor that the mention of the books in the Vancouver section are not necessary, and if they are to be included anywhere in this article it is to verify article content as references themselves, or in a Further reading section. For information on including a Further reading section please see WP:FURTHER.— RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 19:20, 11 June 2011 (UTC) |
The books have been placed in a further reading section, if any one wants to find out more on the issues that is a place where they can look. Regardless of who wrote the book they seemed to just float in the article without actually being incorporated. Wikipeida 3rd opinion has been given it is the fairest view at this point compared to us just fighting it out. As for issues of bias if anyone was to look at the toronto section before a reformatting was started in the last few days they would be shocked at the state it was in, containing numerous factual inaccuracies that have been corrected. i.e 'Hollywood North' is new title it has adopted. Only if 30+ years or media reference is considered new I suppose. Either way we should calm down, all I want to see is fairness in the article, not at the cost of making this whole article into one giant puff piece. Brodey ( talk) 08:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)