This article was nominated for deletion on 22 December 2023. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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The usual suspects applied for the deletion of this page. Allow for a "Hamas massacres on 7 October 2023" page, and I'd be happy to discuss it. That would be a less disingenuous attempt at whitewashing and worth considering. Attacking military bases is one thing, although one can apply the rules of war - or not; attacking civilian towns for murder & hostage-taking goes under "terrorism" and is another biest altogether. Arminden ( talk) 12:41, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Ayenaee, is the list of casualties (given at Holit_massacre#Details_of_casualties_and_hostages_unfolding_over_time) appropriate, given WP:MEMORIAL? VR talk 01:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
I will be adding text to the story as I proceed with the update. At that point I could discard the list. But for list/table oriented people (like me) the complexity of the text becomes difficult to follow without the visual aid. So the aim is not to memorialize but to make the article accessible to more people. Ayenaee ( talk) 06:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. I was very tempted to close as "no consensus" on the grounds that not a single !voter cited the correct controlling policy, which is WP:NDESC. WP:COMMONNAME and WP:POVNAME do not apply and were not fashioned for the circumstances of this discussion.
But NDESC does rely on WP:NPOV, and that still leaves the characterization of reliable sources as the controlling factor, although in a slightly broader manner than supporters suggest. I might have entertained the argument that, by nature of being a descriptive title, NDESC considers the content in the article in whole, instead of the specific turns of phrase journalists choose. The citation of The Guardian was particularly sloppy, given that the article also refers to it as a part of a pattern of "assuault"s and takes the tone of horror in covering the entire tragedy. Overall, however, the tenor of the arguments in support are solid. The opposition, by contrast, leaned largely on a pragmatic assessment of the events of the attack. Combined with the opposition being outnumbered 5 to 9, I see consensus to move. No prejudice against an RM from "Holit attack" towards something like BarrelProof's "Attack on Holit kibbutz". theleekycauldron ( talk • she/her) 01:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved - It was a common ground of people on both sides of the discussion that "attack" likely prevails over "massacre" in descriptions of this event in reliable sources numerically. This was by itself a very strong argument in favour of moving that would take a strong numerical and/or argumentative showing in the other direction to close as not moved.
The strongest point in opposition was essentially about whether "attack" was also an accurate descriptor. Ayenaee argued very forcefully and convincingly that it was a massacre (and I agree: it was a massacre, and I thank Ayenaee for their contribution to this discussion). For this reason, it was hard to give a lot of weight to the argument that "massacre" is a POV name, since it is clearly accurate given the facts. Showing that it was a POV name would require casting doubt on it having been a massacre from non-fringe viewpoints, but this was not done and likely could not be done.
However the argument that was less developed in this discussion was about whether it was inaccurate to describe it as an attack. To overcome the point about "attack" being the WP:COMMONNAME it was necessary not just to show that "massacre" was accurate, but to show that the name we would otherwise favour under WP:COMMONNAME was inaccurate to the extent that "massacre" should be favoured. However, this was not shown decisively. As פעמי-עליון pointed out - every massacre is also an attack.
I did consider a relisting of this discussion, however the recent surge in voting in favour of the move makes it unlikely that the outcome would be changed. If any one on this thread would prefer an admin close to this controversial discussion, come and find me on my talk page and I will happily vacate and give you the opportunity to get that - but you may be waiting some time as there is a month+ backlog in RM discussions needing closing.( non-admin closure) FOARP ( talk) 15:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Holit massacre → Holit attack – The term "massacre" is loaded and thus WP:POVNAME. That would be ok if there was a "significant majority" of sources that called it that, but there aren't. Of the sources that were quoted for SIGCOV at the article's AfD, most used the word "attack" (emphasis mine):
Hi FOARP, thank you for your effort on this close and your compliment. But with all due respect I appeal to you to reverse your decision and let an admin close, even if that takes some, it’s important enough to wait. The outcome of this close is difficult not only because it’s a CTOP, but because it has implications for all articles about warlike action related to unarmed citizens (existing and future). So although I respect your thinking, I would like the close to be by an admin, making the unassailable interpretation of COMMON official having considered these implications, if that’s the outcome. I’ll put this on your talk page as well, I just want my appeal to be here for other participants to see. Thanks again. Ayenaee ( talk) 16:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
I'd just like to state for posterity that had FOARP not explicitly stated that they were vacating their own review, I would have simply upheld their close the same way I would opine on it if it were challenged at AN: they were within their discretion to make the close, despite not being an admin. It is only them voluntarily agreeing to have someone else make the close, and not just review theirs, that made me write a rationale of my own. theleekycauldron ( talk • she/her) 03:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Below are the resources which I will be using to update the article as per my AfD pledge:
Title (Source, Date, lang) |
Referenced information (editor summary) | ||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Attack | |||||||||||||||||
«Мы все тогда немножко умерли». Как три русскоязычные семьи из кибуца Холит пережили резню 7 октября (“We all died a little then.” How three Russian-speaking families from Kibbutz Holit survived the October 7 massacre) (detaly.co.il, 12 December 2023, ru) [1] |
Michael Raitzin:
Anat Dymshits:
Daniel Kukushkin:
Desire to return to the kibbutz
| ||||||||||||||||
Раненный террористами шахматист организовал кружок прямо в больнице (A chess player wounded by terrorists organized a club right in the hospital) (detaly.co.il, 4 November 2023, ru) [2] |
| ||||||||||||||||
"В тот день у меня внутри что-то умерло". Интервью с выжившими в кибуце Холит ( NEWSru, 23 October 2023, ru) [3] |
Some overlap with Detaly article, but introduces new facts
Daniel Kukushkin:
Olga Chagin (Daniel’s mother)
| ||||||||||||||||
הטרגדיה הגדולה של הקיבוץ הקטן: בעקבות מסלול הדמים של המתקפה בחולית (The great tragedy of the small kibbutz: following the bloody trail of the attack in Holit) ( Mako, 20 October 2023, he) [4] |
General
Nir and Adam (husband and wife with children)
Yuval and Ilan Rabivo (husband and wife with children)
Naama and Gideon Kovani (husband and wife with children)
Rotem Mathias
Shimon Azoulai
Shir Azoulai
| ||||||||||||||||
All-woman Israeli Tank Crews Killed 50 Terrorists Over 17 Hours of Combat on October 7 ( Haaretz, 26 October 2023, en) [5] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Israel-Palestine war: Devastation in Israel's kibbutz Holit ( WION News, 13 October 2023, en) [6] |
Walkthrough showing three burnt out houses and walls with bullet holes | ||||||||||||||||
Israeli volunteers clean up kibbutz attacked by Hamas fighters on October 7 ( Al Jazeera, 27 October 2023, en) [7] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Killed / Injured / Captive | |||||||||||||||||
פורסמו שמותיהם של נרצחי קיבוץ חולית (Names of murdered Kibbutz Holit members published) ( Ynet.com, 8 October 2023, he) [8] |
Killed:
Missing:
| ||||||||||||||||
Israel's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hamas Attacks, Massacres and the Israel-Hamas War ( Haaretz, 19 October 2023, en) [9] |
Killed at Holit:
| ||||||||||||||||
Mother killed protecting son with body, father killed, son injured but survives | |||||||||||||||||
What We Know About the Americans Missing or Killed in the Attack on Israel (Mathias) ( NYT, 11 October 2023, en) [10] |
[Deborah] Shachar Mathias
| ||||||||||||||||
He listened, helpless, as Hamas closed in on his family: ‘They came to kill’ ( Washington Post, 10 October 2023, en) [11] |
| ||||||||||||||||
‘My parents sacrificed their lives for me’: agony of 16-year-old survivor of Hamas attack ( The Guardian, 14 October 2023, en) [12] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Man killed protects woman friend with body - friend captured, woman neighbor killed in front of children - children captured, woman friend takes children and escapes | |||||||||||||||||
What We Know About the Americans Missing or Killed in the Attack on Israel (Katsman) ( NYT, 11 October 2023, en) [10] |
Hayim Katsman
| ||||||||||||||||
He was a peace activist with a PhD. In dying, Hayim Katsman saved 3 other lives ( Forward.com, 12 October 2023, en)<ref="saved3"> "He was a peace activist with a PhD. In dying, Hayim Katsman saved 3 other lives". Forward.com. 12 October 2023. Retrieved 4 January 2024.</ref> |
| ||||||||||||||||
‘Do not use our pain to bring death’: plea to Israel from peace activists’ grieving families ( The Guardian, 19 October 2023, en) [13] |
| ||||||||||||||||
My Brother Was Slaughtered on October 7. I Know He Would Be Calling for a Cease-Fire. ( The Nation, 9 November 2023, en) [14] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Loved ones recount horrifying murder of Canadian Adi Vital-Kaploun who was shot by Hamas in front of children ( The Globe and Mail, 13 October 2023, en) [15] |
| ||||||||||||||||
IDF says Hamas video purporting to show 3 hostages being released is propaganda ( Ynet.com, 12 October 2023, en) [16] |
Video description by editor (announcer audio not translated)
Hamas viewpoint
IDF says
Avital Aladjem says
What happened to Kaploun-Vital
Verifiable facts (all resources in article not just this one)
| ||||||||||||||||
Holocaust survivor killed | |||||||||||||||||
Holocaust Survivors in Israel Faced Fresh Horror When Hamas Attacked ( NYT, 9 November 2023, en) [17] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Bedouin family kidnapped | |||||||||||||||||
Israel-Hamas deal: These are the 8 hostages released on Thursday ( Jerusalem Post, 30 November 2023, en) [18] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Hamas hostages: Stories of the people taken from Israel ( BBC, 22 December 2023, en) [19] |
Yosef 53, Hamza 22, Bilal 18, Aisha 16 | ||||||||||||||||
Freed hostage Bilal Ziyadne: Hamas said they were kidnapping us even though we’re Arab ( Times of Israel, 10 December 2023, en) [20] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Thai employee injured | |||||||||||||||||
Traumatized Thai farmers recount horror of Hamas massacre as families wait for news of loved ones held hostage ( Ynet.com, 30 October 2023, he) [21] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Argentinian-Israeli’s killed | |||||||||||||||||
4 Argentine Israelis dead, others missing from kibbutzes after Hamas attack ( Ynet.com, 8 October 2023, he) [22] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Israeli children and Hamas soldiers | |||||||||||||||||
Hamas post video of ‘Israeli‘ children from Kibbutz Holit ( Roya TV, ar,en) [23] |
The scare quotes around the word Israeli in the title, and translations, are from Roya TV not the original video.
| ||||||||||||||||
IDF official X account retweets Hamas video with commentary ( X (twitter), 8 October 2023, en) [24] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Video: Hamas releases footage of children 'held hostage' during attack on Israel ( Khaleej Times, 14 October 2023, en) [25] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Aftermath | |||||||||||||||||
נשיא המדינה ורעייתו נפגשו עם ילדי קיבוץ חולית המטופלים בשיטת ״חיבוקי״ שפותח על ידי עמותת ׳תלם׳ (The President of the State and his wife met with the children of Kibbutz Holit who are being treated with the "hug" method developed by the Telam association) ( President of Israel, 20 November 2023, he) [26] |
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
Ayenaee ( talk) 17:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Hi Loksmythe, thank you for your edit of the article where you removed the sentence "His family are calling for a cease fire, as they are certain he would" from the main image caption with the edit summary "editorializing". I apply WP:0RR (except for vandalism, BLP etc) which means I use BD[R] rather than WP:BRD. So I don’t revert, go straight to discussion, and then only revert if there’s consensus. So this is the “D” of BDR.
Hi SaintPaulOfTarsus, thank you for your edit supplying the correct name of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade and the linked article which I’ve reviewed. If I may ask some questions for my education. I acknowledge my lack of knowledge of Hamas or it’s allies’ military structure, so I apologize if my questions seem obvious:
Thanks again for your help. Ayenaee ( talk) 17:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The second para of the lead has "Twelve residents including one member of the safety team were killed". "No organized defense" has the line "Avi Korin, the only member of the safety team mentioned". Is it clear what a "safety team" is? Sammy D III ( talk) 19:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
I’ve completed the update of the article. Ayenaee ( talk) 19:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 22 December 2023. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The usual suspects applied for the deletion of this page. Allow for a "Hamas massacres on 7 October 2023" page, and I'd be happy to discuss it. That would be a less disingenuous attempt at whitewashing and worth considering. Attacking military bases is one thing, although one can apply the rules of war - or not; attacking civilian towns for murder & hostage-taking goes under "terrorism" and is another biest altogether. Arminden ( talk) 12:41, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Ayenaee, is the list of casualties (given at Holit_massacre#Details_of_casualties_and_hostages_unfolding_over_time) appropriate, given WP:MEMORIAL? VR talk 01:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
I will be adding text to the story as I proceed with the update. At that point I could discard the list. But for list/table oriented people (like me) the complexity of the text becomes difficult to follow without the visual aid. So the aim is not to memorialize but to make the article accessible to more people. Ayenaee ( talk) 06:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. I was very tempted to close as "no consensus" on the grounds that not a single !voter cited the correct controlling policy, which is WP:NDESC. WP:COMMONNAME and WP:POVNAME do not apply and were not fashioned for the circumstances of this discussion.
But NDESC does rely on WP:NPOV, and that still leaves the characterization of reliable sources as the controlling factor, although in a slightly broader manner than supporters suggest. I might have entertained the argument that, by nature of being a descriptive title, NDESC considers the content in the article in whole, instead of the specific turns of phrase journalists choose. The citation of The Guardian was particularly sloppy, given that the article also refers to it as a part of a pattern of "assuault"s and takes the tone of horror in covering the entire tragedy. Overall, however, the tenor of the arguments in support are solid. The opposition, by contrast, leaned largely on a pragmatic assessment of the events of the attack. Combined with the opposition being outnumbered 5 to 9, I see consensus to move. No prejudice against an RM from "Holit attack" towards something like BarrelProof's "Attack on Holit kibbutz". theleekycauldron ( talk • she/her) 01:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved - It was a common ground of people on both sides of the discussion that "attack" likely prevails over "massacre" in descriptions of this event in reliable sources numerically. This was by itself a very strong argument in favour of moving that would take a strong numerical and/or argumentative showing in the other direction to close as not moved.
The strongest point in opposition was essentially about whether "attack" was also an accurate descriptor. Ayenaee argued very forcefully and convincingly that it was a massacre (and I agree: it was a massacre, and I thank Ayenaee for their contribution to this discussion). For this reason, it was hard to give a lot of weight to the argument that "massacre" is a POV name, since it is clearly accurate given the facts. Showing that it was a POV name would require casting doubt on it having been a massacre from non-fringe viewpoints, but this was not done and likely could not be done.
However the argument that was less developed in this discussion was about whether it was inaccurate to describe it as an attack. To overcome the point about "attack" being the WP:COMMONNAME it was necessary not just to show that "massacre" was accurate, but to show that the name we would otherwise favour under WP:COMMONNAME was inaccurate to the extent that "massacre" should be favoured. However, this was not shown decisively. As פעמי-עליון pointed out - every massacre is also an attack.
I did consider a relisting of this discussion, however the recent surge in voting in favour of the move makes it unlikely that the outcome would be changed. If any one on this thread would prefer an admin close to this controversial discussion, come and find me on my talk page and I will happily vacate and give you the opportunity to get that - but you may be waiting some time as there is a month+ backlog in RM discussions needing closing.( non-admin closure) FOARP ( talk) 15:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Holit massacre → Holit attack – The term "massacre" is loaded and thus WP:POVNAME. That would be ok if there was a "significant majority" of sources that called it that, but there aren't. Of the sources that were quoted for SIGCOV at the article's AfD, most used the word "attack" (emphasis mine):
Hi FOARP, thank you for your effort on this close and your compliment. But with all due respect I appeal to you to reverse your decision and let an admin close, even if that takes some, it’s important enough to wait. The outcome of this close is difficult not only because it’s a CTOP, but because it has implications for all articles about warlike action related to unarmed citizens (existing and future). So although I respect your thinking, I would like the close to be by an admin, making the unassailable interpretation of COMMON official having considered these implications, if that’s the outcome. I’ll put this on your talk page as well, I just want my appeal to be here for other participants to see. Thanks again. Ayenaee ( talk) 16:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
I'd just like to state for posterity that had FOARP not explicitly stated that they were vacating their own review, I would have simply upheld their close the same way I would opine on it if it were challenged at AN: they were within their discretion to make the close, despite not being an admin. It is only them voluntarily agreeing to have someone else make the close, and not just review theirs, that made me write a rationale of my own. theleekycauldron ( talk • she/her) 03:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Below are the resources which I will be using to update the article as per my AfD pledge:
Title (Source, Date, lang) |
Referenced information (editor summary) | ||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Attack | |||||||||||||||||
«Мы все тогда немножко умерли». Как три русскоязычные семьи из кибуца Холит пережили резню 7 октября (“We all died a little then.” How three Russian-speaking families from Kibbutz Holit survived the October 7 massacre) (detaly.co.il, 12 December 2023, ru) [1] |
Michael Raitzin:
Anat Dymshits:
Daniel Kukushkin:
Desire to return to the kibbutz
| ||||||||||||||||
Раненный террористами шахматист организовал кружок прямо в больнице (A chess player wounded by terrorists organized a club right in the hospital) (detaly.co.il, 4 November 2023, ru) [2] |
| ||||||||||||||||
"В тот день у меня внутри что-то умерло". Интервью с выжившими в кибуце Холит ( NEWSru, 23 October 2023, ru) [3] |
Some overlap with Detaly article, but introduces new facts
Daniel Kukushkin:
Olga Chagin (Daniel’s mother)
| ||||||||||||||||
הטרגדיה הגדולה של הקיבוץ הקטן: בעקבות מסלול הדמים של המתקפה בחולית (The great tragedy of the small kibbutz: following the bloody trail of the attack in Holit) ( Mako, 20 October 2023, he) [4] |
General
Nir and Adam (husband and wife with children)
Yuval and Ilan Rabivo (husband and wife with children)
Naama and Gideon Kovani (husband and wife with children)
Rotem Mathias
Shimon Azoulai
Shir Azoulai
| ||||||||||||||||
All-woman Israeli Tank Crews Killed 50 Terrorists Over 17 Hours of Combat on October 7 ( Haaretz, 26 October 2023, en) [5] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Israel-Palestine war: Devastation in Israel's kibbutz Holit ( WION News, 13 October 2023, en) [6] |
Walkthrough showing three burnt out houses and walls with bullet holes | ||||||||||||||||
Israeli volunteers clean up kibbutz attacked by Hamas fighters on October 7 ( Al Jazeera, 27 October 2023, en) [7] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Killed / Injured / Captive | |||||||||||||||||
פורסמו שמותיהם של נרצחי קיבוץ חולית (Names of murdered Kibbutz Holit members published) ( Ynet.com, 8 October 2023, he) [8] |
Killed:
Missing:
| ||||||||||||||||
Israel's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hamas Attacks, Massacres and the Israel-Hamas War ( Haaretz, 19 October 2023, en) [9] |
Killed at Holit:
| ||||||||||||||||
Mother killed protecting son with body, father killed, son injured but survives | |||||||||||||||||
What We Know About the Americans Missing or Killed in the Attack on Israel (Mathias) ( NYT, 11 October 2023, en) [10] |
[Deborah] Shachar Mathias
| ||||||||||||||||
He listened, helpless, as Hamas closed in on his family: ‘They came to kill’ ( Washington Post, 10 October 2023, en) [11] |
| ||||||||||||||||
‘My parents sacrificed their lives for me’: agony of 16-year-old survivor of Hamas attack ( The Guardian, 14 October 2023, en) [12] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Man killed protects woman friend with body - friend captured, woman neighbor killed in front of children - children captured, woman friend takes children and escapes | |||||||||||||||||
What We Know About the Americans Missing or Killed in the Attack on Israel (Katsman) ( NYT, 11 October 2023, en) [10] |
Hayim Katsman
| ||||||||||||||||
He was a peace activist with a PhD. In dying, Hayim Katsman saved 3 other lives ( Forward.com, 12 October 2023, en)<ref="saved3"> "He was a peace activist with a PhD. In dying, Hayim Katsman saved 3 other lives". Forward.com. 12 October 2023. Retrieved 4 January 2024.</ref> |
| ||||||||||||||||
‘Do not use our pain to bring death’: plea to Israel from peace activists’ grieving families ( The Guardian, 19 October 2023, en) [13] |
| ||||||||||||||||
My Brother Was Slaughtered on October 7. I Know He Would Be Calling for a Cease-Fire. ( The Nation, 9 November 2023, en) [14] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Loved ones recount horrifying murder of Canadian Adi Vital-Kaploun who was shot by Hamas in front of children ( The Globe and Mail, 13 October 2023, en) [15] |
| ||||||||||||||||
IDF says Hamas video purporting to show 3 hostages being released is propaganda ( Ynet.com, 12 October 2023, en) [16] |
Video description by editor (announcer audio not translated)
Hamas viewpoint
IDF says
Avital Aladjem says
What happened to Kaploun-Vital
Verifiable facts (all resources in article not just this one)
| ||||||||||||||||
Holocaust survivor killed | |||||||||||||||||
Holocaust Survivors in Israel Faced Fresh Horror When Hamas Attacked ( NYT, 9 November 2023, en) [17] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Bedouin family kidnapped | |||||||||||||||||
Israel-Hamas deal: These are the 8 hostages released on Thursday ( Jerusalem Post, 30 November 2023, en) [18] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Hamas hostages: Stories of the people taken from Israel ( BBC, 22 December 2023, en) [19] |
Yosef 53, Hamza 22, Bilal 18, Aisha 16 | ||||||||||||||||
Freed hostage Bilal Ziyadne: Hamas said they were kidnapping us even though we’re Arab ( Times of Israel, 10 December 2023, en) [20] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Thai employee injured | |||||||||||||||||
Traumatized Thai farmers recount horror of Hamas massacre as families wait for news of loved ones held hostage ( Ynet.com, 30 October 2023, he) [21] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Argentinian-Israeli’s killed | |||||||||||||||||
4 Argentine Israelis dead, others missing from kibbutzes after Hamas attack ( Ynet.com, 8 October 2023, he) [22] |
| ||||||||||||||||
Israeli children and Hamas soldiers | |||||||||||||||||
Hamas post video of ‘Israeli‘ children from Kibbutz Holit ( Roya TV, ar,en) [23] |
The scare quotes around the word Israeli in the title, and translations, are from Roya TV not the original video.
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IDF official X account retweets Hamas video with commentary ( X (twitter), 8 October 2023, en) [24] |
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Video: Hamas releases footage of children 'held hostage' during attack on Israel ( Khaleej Times, 14 October 2023, en) [25] |
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Aftermath | |||||||||||||||||
נשיא המדינה ורעייתו נפגשו עם ילדי קיבוץ חולית המטופלים בשיטת ״חיבוקי״ שפותח על ידי עמותת ׳תלם׳ (The President of the State and his wife met with the children of Kibbutz Holit who are being treated with the "hug" method developed by the Telam association) ( President of Israel, 20 November 2023, he) [26] |
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Ayenaee ( talk) 17:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Hi Loksmythe, thank you for your edit of the article where you removed the sentence "His family are calling for a cease fire, as they are certain he would" from the main image caption with the edit summary "editorializing". I apply WP:0RR (except for vandalism, BLP etc) which means I use BD[R] rather than WP:BRD. So I don’t revert, go straight to discussion, and then only revert if there’s consensus. So this is the “D” of BDR.
Hi SaintPaulOfTarsus, thank you for your edit supplying the correct name of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade and the linked article which I’ve reviewed. If I may ask some questions for my education. I acknowledge my lack of knowledge of Hamas or it’s allies’ military structure, so I apologize if my questions seem obvious:
Thanks again for your help. Ayenaee ( talk) 17:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The second para of the lead has "Twelve residents including one member of the safety team were killed". "No organized defense" has the line "Avi Korin, the only member of the safety team mentioned". Is it clear what a "safety team" is? Sammy D III ( talk) 19:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
I’ve completed the update of the article. Ayenaee ( talk) 19:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)