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The misuse to mean "upper class" has been mildly challenged. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition usage note supports the existence of the common misuse, though is not the source. -- Bitt 00:10, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The links that are supposed to be evidence of this misuse don't work or don't retrieve anything that refers to it. I've never heard this misuse either so I don't understand why the Wikipedia article refers to it. Maybe somebody somewhere didn't know what "hoi polloi" meant and was confused by it, but who cares? 65.114.23.6 22:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I vote to keep this note and paragraph. Apparently, I've been confused all my life on this, thinking hoi polloi was referring to rich opinion makers! Who knows where i got this from but evidently there is enough confusion out there and i must have picked up on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.195.85.166 ( talk) 04:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
It was surprised to hear someone on a TV documentary use hoi polloi to refer to the many. My immediate thought was that they were wrong. At about the same time my friend let out the same exclamation. We both immediately went to the web and both of us were amazed to realize our misuse for about fifty years. My background was working class Scotland. My father was a coal miner and when he referred to the hoi polloi it meant those who might have played polo or at the least employed a butler to get by in life. My friend is from a middle class Australian background, father being school headmaster, and she has a doctorate in sociology. Her experience of the meaning of hoi polloi was the same as mine. We are both from different parts of the world having different backgrounds and yet we had the same interpretation.
Language changes over time. When I was a young man an adult I was with was suddenly overcome with dizziness. He said, “I feel queer,” and he sat down until he had recovered. That would not be something most people would say today. We might read of a “terrific” fire or car accident in the newspaper and know the meaning to be horrifying which is not to be confused by you see a terrific newly released blockbuster movie. Same word different meaning. Walking though the mall you might overhear a sixteen year old say the word “sick” and you might not know whether they were talking about another really good movie, the health of one of their friends, or whether the stomach contents of one of their friends had just found their way to the floor. I hope alternative meaning of the word sick never becomes accepted usage, but queer, gay, terrific are all there.
The meanings of words are reinforced by the people who use them. Hoi polloi is not a well used term. The people who use it with different interpretations are unlikely to meet; polo players are unlikely to rub shoulders with coal miners. It’s possible that both usages will remain, neither one being wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.195.87 ( talk) 11:37, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd vote for including a reference to the "upper class" as an alternate usage. Although some people might consider this a misuse, words derive their meaning from the way they're used, not from the rules of grammarians. It's of course inconvenient that the "upper class" / "elite" use is the opposite of the original meaning. But even so, this use is well established, even though some people don't like it. See these references:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoi%20polloi , meaning #2. Also see the usage note. https://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/blog/article/155/
Omc ( talk) 16:03, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Would this not be better as a wiktionary article?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.110.86.44 ( talk • contribs) 18:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Does this article belong in any of these? I can find no phrases borrowed from other languages on those pages. Nor is it listed in the Wictionary idioms category. meco 17:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
List_of_idioms_in_the_English_language and Category:English phrases was what I was thinking of. The latter is perhaps illogical since Hoi Polloi is obviously a Greek expression, but I figured it should perhaps also be classified as an English phrase. The parallell to Latin phrases is alluring, but they are a gazillion whereas Hoi Polloi is virtually alone (and lost) in its Greek phrases category. meco 18:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems to be a problem with footnotes from #5 onwards. I don't know how to fix them. Nurg 04:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Surley A More World Wide Definition Than "Middle America" Would Be Better Understood —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.146.5.172 ( talk) 18:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
"Alternative gospel band Hoi Polloi was formed in New Zealand by vocalist Jenny Gullen, her husband, bassist Andrew Horst, guitarist David Ball and drummer Jozsef Fityus. Moving to the U.S., Hoi Polloi performed their first gig at the 1990 Cornerstone Festival and signed to the gospel label Reunion soon after. A restrictive contract, however, forced the band into two albums that overly polished their rugged, rootsy sound, Hoi Polloi (1992) and Spin Me (1993). Ball and Fityus returned to the homeland in 1994, forcing the recruitment of New Zealand native Scott Pearson on drums and American guitarist Troy Daugherty. In mid-1995, Hoi Polloi released Happy Ever After; its single "Tiptoe" spent eight weeks at the top of the Christian rock charts, and the album crossed over to college and commercial-alternative radio. ~ John Bush, All Music Guide"
The section on "Other Uses" contained rather too much detail on the Hoi Polloi band. I removed it, but I'll add it here in case someone decides to create an article on the band and could find the info useful. Galanskov 08:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not one to jump on the PC bandwagon in general, but in this case I find the picture to be innappropriate. The reasons that come to mind, once I start down that PC path, include the declaration that they are hoi polloi but the use of "perceived" in "perceived maltreatment" and that they are developing world people rather than westerners, since westerners make up most of Wikipedia's users - I can only imagine the response if the image showed protesting U.S. minorities, assuming someone noticed it. Now, all this hinges on the term being significantly derogatory, as I understand it to be. However, I'm not going to change it since I realize it might not have the connotations I have assumed it does (I suspect originally it was just descriptive), and because I can't think of an image to replace it with, let alone have one to use, not that every article must have an image. Any thoughts? -- Fitzhugh 01:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The use of the word "perceived" in the caption to the photograph is sarcastic and demeaning. I assume this is vandalism. Tudhaliya 19:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I also think the caption is inappropriate, and I'm not sure there is any great need for an image in this article anyway. A famous painting or something with "hoi polloi" in the name might make sense, but just taking an image of protesters and calling them "hoi polloi" seems to add a political slant to the article. Personally I think it would be better to have no image than one of this type. The image and caption were added last june in this edit by User:Johntex, who did a lot of work on this article, so I don't think it's a case of vandalism. Johntex apparently is still an active contributor so I'll mention this discussion on his talk page.-- Eloil 17:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the picture is much good, and it could be construed as POV. Also, I question the capitalization, namely 'Hoi Polloi', in its caption. Alpheus ( talk) 21:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I've never come across the English pronunciation "ho-ee poll-oo-ee". It's "hoy puh-loy", to rhyme with toy. My dictionary agrees. 143.252.80.100 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think "hoy pull-oy" (apologies for amateurish phonetics attempt) might be more accurate. By adding the l to the first syllable, then you get the double syllable effect, as in Greek (what some might call"ancient" Greek); with the l attached to the second syllable it becomes a single l. Just a thought... Professor J Lawrence ( talk) 12:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
There shouldn't be a stress accent on the Ancient Greek Pronunciation since a pitch accent was used instead. ΠΑΕ.ΠΑΟΚ ₯ ( talk) 20:46, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
I was surprised to find so many 19th century usages listed in the article, but no mention of Dryden's use in Dramatick Poesie, which to the best of my knowledge is the earliest use of the term in the English language.
I wasn't sure if it warranted a separate section just for that, so I added a sentence to the end of 19th century section. If anyone wants to rearrange the structure, be my guest. The text of Dramatick Poesie is available online. Follow the link to the wiki article and you'll find a link to the text at the bottom. Go there and search "hoi polloi" and you'll find the sentence in question. It's in ¶108. Iglew ( talk) 10:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, listed below. I will check back in seven days. If these issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far.
The article mentions that there's some debate over whether the English article, "the", is redundant or not. Surely a better reference for the debate can be found than a Google Fight? Like, perhaps, a link to a prominent debate? I believe this is well represented by the snarky entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary [2], but as a better might be found (say, in Oxford), I'll leave off editing.-- Rfsmit ( talk) 19:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
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The normal pronunciation would be /oi póloi/, not /hoi pəlói/. neither the /h/ needed to be pronouncde, nor the greek accent ever used.
It seems like a deliberate political move to have a one-time statement at the top of a list for common synonyms, especially following "express the same or similar distaste for the common people felt by those who believe themselves to be superior." Obviously Clinton's statement was offensive to many people, and I agree that it fits the bill, but it's not exactly a common turn of phrase. Furthermore, it also ascribes the statement to feelings of superiority, which has certainly been argued by many, when Clinton herself immediately followed it by saying "They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it." At any point, none of us are here to condemn or defend Hillary Clinton, and this seems like condemnation.
Perhaps we could put a link to the "Basket of Deplorables" article in the "see also" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flyest nihilist ( talk • contribs) 02:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Hoi polloi was one of the Language and literature good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
Wikipedians in Greece may be able to help! The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
The misuse to mean "upper class" has been mildly challenged. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition usage note supports the existence of the common misuse, though is not the source. -- Bitt 00:10, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The links that are supposed to be evidence of this misuse don't work or don't retrieve anything that refers to it. I've never heard this misuse either so I don't understand why the Wikipedia article refers to it. Maybe somebody somewhere didn't know what "hoi polloi" meant and was confused by it, but who cares? 65.114.23.6 22:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I vote to keep this note and paragraph. Apparently, I've been confused all my life on this, thinking hoi polloi was referring to rich opinion makers! Who knows where i got this from but evidently there is enough confusion out there and i must have picked up on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.195.85.166 ( talk) 04:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
It was surprised to hear someone on a TV documentary use hoi polloi to refer to the many. My immediate thought was that they were wrong. At about the same time my friend let out the same exclamation. We both immediately went to the web and both of us were amazed to realize our misuse for about fifty years. My background was working class Scotland. My father was a coal miner and when he referred to the hoi polloi it meant those who might have played polo or at the least employed a butler to get by in life. My friend is from a middle class Australian background, father being school headmaster, and she has a doctorate in sociology. Her experience of the meaning of hoi polloi was the same as mine. We are both from different parts of the world having different backgrounds and yet we had the same interpretation.
Language changes over time. When I was a young man an adult I was with was suddenly overcome with dizziness. He said, “I feel queer,” and he sat down until he had recovered. That would not be something most people would say today. We might read of a “terrific” fire or car accident in the newspaper and know the meaning to be horrifying which is not to be confused by you see a terrific newly released blockbuster movie. Same word different meaning. Walking though the mall you might overhear a sixteen year old say the word “sick” and you might not know whether they were talking about another really good movie, the health of one of their friends, or whether the stomach contents of one of their friends had just found their way to the floor. I hope alternative meaning of the word sick never becomes accepted usage, but queer, gay, terrific are all there.
The meanings of words are reinforced by the people who use them. Hoi polloi is not a well used term. The people who use it with different interpretations are unlikely to meet; polo players are unlikely to rub shoulders with coal miners. It’s possible that both usages will remain, neither one being wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.195.87 ( talk) 11:37, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd vote for including a reference to the "upper class" as an alternate usage. Although some people might consider this a misuse, words derive their meaning from the way they're used, not from the rules of grammarians. It's of course inconvenient that the "upper class" / "elite" use is the opposite of the original meaning. But even so, this use is well established, even though some people don't like it. See these references:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoi%20polloi , meaning #2. Also see the usage note. https://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/blog/article/155/
Omc ( talk) 16:03, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Would this not be better as a wiktionary article?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.110.86.44 ( talk • contribs) 18:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Does this article belong in any of these? I can find no phrases borrowed from other languages on those pages. Nor is it listed in the Wictionary idioms category. meco 17:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
List_of_idioms_in_the_English_language and Category:English phrases was what I was thinking of. The latter is perhaps illogical since Hoi Polloi is obviously a Greek expression, but I figured it should perhaps also be classified as an English phrase. The parallell to Latin phrases is alluring, but they are a gazillion whereas Hoi Polloi is virtually alone (and lost) in its Greek phrases category. meco 18:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems to be a problem with footnotes from #5 onwards. I don't know how to fix them. Nurg 04:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Surley A More World Wide Definition Than "Middle America" Would Be Better Understood —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.146.5.172 ( talk) 18:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
"Alternative gospel band Hoi Polloi was formed in New Zealand by vocalist Jenny Gullen, her husband, bassist Andrew Horst, guitarist David Ball and drummer Jozsef Fityus. Moving to the U.S., Hoi Polloi performed their first gig at the 1990 Cornerstone Festival and signed to the gospel label Reunion soon after. A restrictive contract, however, forced the band into two albums that overly polished their rugged, rootsy sound, Hoi Polloi (1992) and Spin Me (1993). Ball and Fityus returned to the homeland in 1994, forcing the recruitment of New Zealand native Scott Pearson on drums and American guitarist Troy Daugherty. In mid-1995, Hoi Polloi released Happy Ever After; its single "Tiptoe" spent eight weeks at the top of the Christian rock charts, and the album crossed over to college and commercial-alternative radio. ~ John Bush, All Music Guide"
The section on "Other Uses" contained rather too much detail on the Hoi Polloi band. I removed it, but I'll add it here in case someone decides to create an article on the band and could find the info useful. Galanskov 08:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not one to jump on the PC bandwagon in general, but in this case I find the picture to be innappropriate. The reasons that come to mind, once I start down that PC path, include the declaration that they are hoi polloi but the use of "perceived" in "perceived maltreatment" and that they are developing world people rather than westerners, since westerners make up most of Wikipedia's users - I can only imagine the response if the image showed protesting U.S. minorities, assuming someone noticed it. Now, all this hinges on the term being significantly derogatory, as I understand it to be. However, I'm not going to change it since I realize it might not have the connotations I have assumed it does (I suspect originally it was just descriptive), and because I can't think of an image to replace it with, let alone have one to use, not that every article must have an image. Any thoughts? -- Fitzhugh 01:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The use of the word "perceived" in the caption to the photograph is sarcastic and demeaning. I assume this is vandalism. Tudhaliya 19:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I also think the caption is inappropriate, and I'm not sure there is any great need for an image in this article anyway. A famous painting or something with "hoi polloi" in the name might make sense, but just taking an image of protesters and calling them "hoi polloi" seems to add a political slant to the article. Personally I think it would be better to have no image than one of this type. The image and caption were added last june in this edit by User:Johntex, who did a lot of work on this article, so I don't think it's a case of vandalism. Johntex apparently is still an active contributor so I'll mention this discussion on his talk page.-- Eloil 17:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the picture is much good, and it could be construed as POV. Also, I question the capitalization, namely 'Hoi Polloi', in its caption. Alpheus ( talk) 21:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I've never come across the English pronunciation "ho-ee poll-oo-ee". It's "hoy puh-loy", to rhyme with toy. My dictionary agrees. 143.252.80.100 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think "hoy pull-oy" (apologies for amateurish phonetics attempt) might be more accurate. By adding the l to the first syllable, then you get the double syllable effect, as in Greek (what some might call"ancient" Greek); with the l attached to the second syllable it becomes a single l. Just a thought... Professor J Lawrence ( talk) 12:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
There shouldn't be a stress accent on the Ancient Greek Pronunciation since a pitch accent was used instead. ΠΑΕ.ΠΑΟΚ ₯ ( talk) 20:46, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
I was surprised to find so many 19th century usages listed in the article, but no mention of Dryden's use in Dramatick Poesie, which to the best of my knowledge is the earliest use of the term in the English language.
I wasn't sure if it warranted a separate section just for that, so I added a sentence to the end of 19th century section. If anyone wants to rearrange the structure, be my guest. The text of Dramatick Poesie is available online. Follow the link to the wiki article and you'll find a link to the text at the bottom. Go there and search "hoi polloi" and you'll find the sentence in question. It's in ¶108. Iglew ( talk) 10:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, listed below. I will check back in seven days. If these issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far.
The article mentions that there's some debate over whether the English article, "the", is redundant or not. Surely a better reference for the debate can be found than a Google Fight? Like, perhaps, a link to a prominent debate? I believe this is well represented by the snarky entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary [2], but as a better might be found (say, in Oxford), I'll leave off editing.-- Rfsmit ( talk) 19:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
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The normal pronunciation would be /oi póloi/, not /hoi pəlói/. neither the /h/ needed to be pronouncde, nor the greek accent ever used.
It seems like a deliberate political move to have a one-time statement at the top of a list for common synonyms, especially following "express the same or similar distaste for the common people felt by those who believe themselves to be superior." Obviously Clinton's statement was offensive to many people, and I agree that it fits the bill, but it's not exactly a common turn of phrase. Furthermore, it also ascribes the statement to feelings of superiority, which has certainly been argued by many, when Clinton herself immediately followed it by saying "They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it." At any point, none of us are here to condemn or defend Hillary Clinton, and this seems like condemnation.
Perhaps we could put a link to the "Basket of Deplorables" article in the "see also" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flyest nihilist ( talk • contribs) 02:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)