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Military use: Robert Chew acquired the nickname "The Scotsman" for consistently wearing a kilt in the months he oversaw Norway's return to civil rule after WW2. Bergen library — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:799:E9F:FB01:40CE:CA07:FFD9:EB55 ( talk) 09:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
I made some minor edits. I removed a reference in the Great Kilt section since it claimed the term derived from the Norse word 'kjalta' which contradicts what was actually *cited* at the top of the article that it derives from the world 'kilting.' Furthermore, just because it derives from that word does not give "strong indication" that the Norse people observed Picts wearing kilts, by any means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.39.212.101 ( talk) 05:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
It was President Woodrow Wilson, the son of a Scots-Irish Presbyterian minister, said: "Every line in America's history is a line coloured by Scottish blood." In keeping with his sentiments, many recognize North American (U.S. and Canadian) history and the Colonial activity of Britain in the 1600's were directly influenced by a chain of events that transpired in Britain, predating the English Civil War (1642-1651). The obvious diasporal link between Britain and it's many Colonies gives the citizen's of Canada, the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and other previous Colonies a lirect link to a common history and heritage, regardless of their particular race or bloodline. The Tartan Day [1] Resolution [2], passed by the U.S. Congress in 1998 outlines the facts and details relating to U.S. history being intertwined with Scot's history. Many Americans without direct Scottish ancestry have taken to wearing non-tartan casual kilts as well as traditional kilts sportng appropriate district tartans; The
American National Tartan [3], the Canadian National Tartan [4] or a state [5]/provincial [6], club or military service tartan (U.S. Military Tartans [7]). Many see this as a way of celebrating our common Scots heritage.
The above was taken from the kilt article. It may properly belong under History of the kilt. However, it needs to be sourced and it seems more about general Scottish/Celtic cultural growth and not so specifically about the kilt. Also, about the section header: if there has been a revival, doesn't that mean there was a previous 'vival'? When was the vival?
I do suspect there has been some growth of interest in the kilt in recent years, but shouldn't this be supportable with industry statistics on sales, eh? JFPerry 13:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I just LO-O-OVE this ARTICLE! Bye, y'all! Wumbo 3:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but could some material from the Thomas Rawlinson article be incorporated into this article, please! It would really help me out. Thanks! Skrooball 19:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The above comments are now redundant. The current Thomas Rawlinson article includes the facts of the Ivan Baillie letter ascribing the invention of the modern kilt to Rawlinson, together with the assertion that the lower half of the belted plaid was worn on its own before Rawlinson's kilt, both with citations to their sources. The fact that Rawlinson's kilt had sewn-in pleats like a modern kilt, while the abbreviated belted plaid which may have been worn earlier did not, is also made. Robocon1 ( talk) 18:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The article says "Scottish troops last wore kilts in combat during WWI. In particular, the ferocious tactics of the Royal Highland Regiment led to their acquiring the nickname "Ladies from Hell" from the German troops that faced them in the trenches." but there are photographic sources such as photo (which shows Scottish POWs in 1940) wearing kilts at least into early WWII.
There are also photo's of Scottinh officers wearing kilts during Market-Garden, in 1944. These may hve been individual choices rather than unit orders, but they were kilyts worn in combat. Jahb ( talk) 20:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
What evidence is there that the Kilt or the Plaid was an "ancient" item of clothing? I mean actual historical evidence? As far as I'm aware the plaid is actually a relatively modern invention of the 16th century.
this article does not in anyway mention the irish. kilts are just as irish as they are scottish, and frankly i am sick of the implication that its a wholly scottish garment. furthormore the article doesn't go nearly far enough back. it makes insufficient mention of any related garments before the great kilt. trews and so called saffron shirts are to my understanding both possible predecessors. also just to sound as biased as humanly possible, most sources i've run across point to an irish origin for the kilt.
I'm afraid I must strongly disagree with the idea that kilts are as Irish as they are scottish. The simple fact is that they are not and never have been. Here in Ireland where I live the kilt is seen as a Scottish item of clothing. It is only worn by pipe bands and more recently at weddings.
There is no historical evidence of the kilt being worn in Ireland before the end of the 19th century, and even then it was limited to mainly boys Irish Dancing costumes and some Catholic Private schools, as a symbol of pan-celticsm. It has been all but abandoned in Irish Dancing, thanks largely to Riverdance.
The historical garment of Ireland is the Léine which was basically a long shirt or tunic sometimes worn with a belt around the waste. It in no way resembled or is connected to the kilt we know today.
The notion that kilts are Irish seems to originate with the Irish-Americans keen to have an outward symbol of their celtic origins. Nothing wrong with this and a good choice, unfortunately it seems to have sprung a need for Irish-Americans to concoct a mythology around it's "ancient origins" in order to justify it's wearing. Where as here in Ireland we know it's not really anything to do with us but wear it mostly for fun at weddings and even at that very rarely.
I attended a wedding in Mayo two years ago at Ballintubber Abbey to be precise. The bride was a born and bred Mayo woman the groom an Irish-American from upstate New York. On the bride's (i.e Irish) side of the church there was not one kilt amongst the guests or family, on the American side all the men wore kilts !. At the reception afterwards the American's were more than surprised to find out that no one wore kilts in Ireland, apart from pipers.
The kilt as we know it today originated in the Scottish Highlands of the 16th century, was modified to what we know now in the 18th Century, took off as the national dress of Scotland after 1822 and George IV's visit and got the British establishment seal of approval in Victorian Britain.
In the islands of Britain and Ireland it has been adopted in the late 20th century amongst other celtic nations as a pan celtic symbol, but everyone is aware that it's history is firmly rooted in the Scottish Highlands.
You'll have to get over it my friend can't change reality to suit romantic notions.
EddieLu 15:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi a careful reading of my comment and you would have noticed my line "There is no historical evidence of the kilt being worn in Ireland before the end of the 19th century". So the photo in your local pub fits in perfectly with my point. There was a bit of a pan celtic revival at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries here in Ireland. The saffron kilt was adopted as a symbol by some as a resistance to British rule, it wasn't widespread but was taken up by some private Catholic Schools, I believe the one that Padraig Pearse taught is one such, was used as a boys Irish Dancing costume, and did occasionally appear at political meetings. Once things got serious after 1916 the Irish had other things to worry about. The only notable Irish lord or chieftain that I have heard of wearing a kilt in the early 20thc was Sir Shane Leslie 3rd Baronet of Castle Leslie in Monaghan, at the time he was considered quite eccentric (indeed his son Jack Leslie who is 90 is famous for being an ardent clubber as in House/Acid music) Sir Shane was a fervent Nationalist and stood as a Nationalist candidate in 1910, his kilt wearing was the outward sign of his celtic nationalism. Anyway next time your in the pub have a pint for me and I'll do the same for you in Ireland, cheers. EddieLu 15:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC) check out the following [8] EddieLu 11:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Two book reviews which you may wish to note of Trevor Ropers book http://www.nysun.com/arts/hugh-trevor-ropers-the-invention-of-scotland/82417/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/06/08/botre108.xml rumjal 09:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I just reverted a couple edits by Steafan31 ( [9], [10], [11]). The edits were pretty extreme and the source is suspect being only a Victorian newspaper clipping. Stating there are old Gaelic manuscripts with images of kilts dating from the 800s; Scottish kings wearing kilts in 1000s and 1100s; also the bit about James V in 1538 is garbled - the account isn't regarding a kilt but of a velvet jacket and tartan hose.-- Celtus ( talk) 06:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the reliability of this newspaper, it received contributions from historians and other interested parties who would write for it, sending in articles from Scotland and of course Gaelic Canada. The [ newspaper] itself ran from 1892 to 1904.-- Steafan31 ( talk) 12:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
No where does this article mention that the English invented the kilt; see Hugh Trevor Roper et al. This is a serious failing. 195.217.128.36 ( talk) 07:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
erm, maybe if you actually tried reading the article you would understand that the English did not 'invent' the kilt. In reality, the modern kilt evolved from the belted plaid, now called the 'great kilt'. The Trevor-Roper material is explored in the article.
Why do some people feel content to post comments in the discussion page without even reading the article in question? Beats me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.156.207 ( talk) 12:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually the Wikipedia article "The Kilt" mentions that an English Quaker invemted the small kilt [ Hobsbawm & Ranger 1983, pp. 22–23.]. Acorn897 ( talk) 22:59, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This is the relevant section from the source used in this article, from the website of the Scottish Tartans Museum, North Carolina: One story commonly repeated is that an Englishman named Thomas Rawlinson opened an iron-smelting factory in the Highlands around the year 1730. His workers all dressed in the belted plaids, which proved too hot and cumbersome for close work in his factory. He solved the problem by cutting the garment in half. The lower part could now be worn separately and the upper part discarded when coming indoors. This is considered proof that an Englishman invented the Scottish national dress. The problem with this story is that we know of numerous illustrations of Highlanders wearing the only the bottom part of the belted plaid that date long before Rawlinson ever set foot in Scotland.(...) I will not go into detailed evidence of the wearing of the phillabeg here, but I will say that there is some suggestion of its use in the late 17th century, and it was definitely being worn in the early 18th century. It most likely came about as a natural evolution of the belted plaid and Rawlinson probably observed its and quickly deduced its usefulness in his situation and introduced it among his workers. ENDS
1. The account in Hobsbawm & Ranger's The Invention of Tradition is the first documented evidence of something like a modern kilt, published in the Edinburgh Magazine, 1785. It is stated that it was not challenged at the time. The Invention of Tradition is a properly referenced academic textbook published by the Cambridge University Press.
2. Hobsbawm & Ranger states that Rawlinson's philibeg "was achieved by separating the the skirt from the plaid and and converting it into a distinct garment, with pleats already sewn." But the source used for this article, the website of a tartan museum in the USA, claims that the first 'tailored' kilt is from 1792 and is an exhibit in their museum. It could therefore be said to be in their interest to rubbish competing evidence. There are no references to the sources of the information for the tartan museum's text, or for their statement that the philibeg was worn in the late 17th century. "Evidence" for this often seems to consist of illustrations of the period, the details of which, being woodcuts, are open to differing interpretations. Hobsbawm & Ranger also states that the first painting of a recognizable modern kilt, not a belted plaid, is of the son of the clan chief who was a friend of Rawlinson's.
Can anyone supply a properly referenced academic source which provides documentary evidence as good as Hobsbawm & Ranger for the philibeg with sewn pleats, or the philibeg itself, being in use before Rawlinson's version? Robocon1 ( talk) 19:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Apologies, I now notice that the oldest tailored kilt is with the Scottish Tartans Authority, not the Scottish Tartans Museum. The problem remains that the bulk of this article is taken from the website of a tartan museum in North Carolina rather than a recognised source such as a textbook or encyclopedia. Robocon1 ( talk) 13:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
No-one having come up with any source other than the Scottish Tartans Museum website, I have just edited The small kilt or walking kilt section to reflect the fact that Baillie's account is not 'a story' that has been disproved (see
Thomas Rawlinson, Talk: Accuracy Redux) and that it's the first documented evidence of a tailored kilt with sewn in pleats like a modern kilt. I've left in the Scottish Tartan Museum reference to the bottom half of the belted plaid being worn in the 1690s pending some definitive evidence being cited
Robocon1 (
talk) 12:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Vikings did not wear kilts, they wore long tunics or shirts over trews: http://sciencenordic.com/what-vikings-really-looked http://www.danishnet.com/info.php/vikings/clothing-137.html This was a style of dress for men common across medieval Europe. A kilt is a pleated garment which is not worn over trousers. The fact that a Scottish word may be derived from an Old Norse word proves nothing. Many words of Norse derivation occur in Scottish Gaelic, northern English dialects and modern English, because of Viking settlement. For instance, the modern Lowland Scots dialect word for a cushion is the same as the word in modern Swedish: kudde. That doesn't mean that Swedish Vikings invented the cushion and took it to Scotland. Robocon1 ( talk) 21:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
This page was identified as including a disambiguation error based on the term "AIX".
In order to resolve this problem I have removed the wikilink from the term as I am unable to determine, from the context, which exact place it is referring to. If you wish to restore the link please ensure that the term and the link are fully resolved so that no further disambiguation occurs. Perry Middlemiss ( talk) 07:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Folklore sometimes has it that the plated-leather skirts of some types of Roman armour (e.g. the lorica segmentata and lorica squamata), worn by Romano-British soldiers at Hadrian's Wall and Antonine Wall, inspired Pictish immitation in the form of cloth kilts, while in reality there is no sure evidence of kilt-wearing in Scotland until the late 16th century. I know I read about this in a published source some time in the 1980s, though at this remove I have no idea what that book was. I imagine it has been covered in more than one source by now, and it is probably worth mentioning and effectively dismissing in our article. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Kilt#Thomas Rawlinson for a discussion that should be centralized at one place, as it affects three articles. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Our current text says: "A letter written by Ivan Baillie in 1768 and published in the Edinburgh Magazine in March 1785 states that the garment people would recognize as a kilt today was invented in the 1720s by Thomas Rawlinson, a Quaker from Lancashire." But other sources including Thomas Innes of Learney and J. G. Mackay put that publication in The Scots Magazine. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
We seem to have gotten Edinburgh Magazine from Thomas Rawlinson (industrialist) which cites no source for that. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
John Telfer Dunbar says it was Edinburgh Magazine. David Stewart of Garth says it was The Scots Magazine. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Military use: Robert Chew acquired the nickname "The Scotsman" for consistently wearing a kilt in the months he oversaw Norway's return to civil rule after WW2. Bergen library — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:799:E9F:FB01:40CE:CA07:FFD9:EB55 ( talk) 09:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
I made some minor edits. I removed a reference in the Great Kilt section since it claimed the term derived from the Norse word 'kjalta' which contradicts what was actually *cited* at the top of the article that it derives from the world 'kilting.' Furthermore, just because it derives from that word does not give "strong indication" that the Norse people observed Picts wearing kilts, by any means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.39.212.101 ( talk) 05:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
It was President Woodrow Wilson, the son of a Scots-Irish Presbyterian minister, said: "Every line in America's history is a line coloured by Scottish blood." In keeping with his sentiments, many recognize North American (U.S. and Canadian) history and the Colonial activity of Britain in the 1600's were directly influenced by a chain of events that transpired in Britain, predating the English Civil War (1642-1651). The obvious diasporal link between Britain and it's many Colonies gives the citizen's of Canada, the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and other previous Colonies a lirect link to a common history and heritage, regardless of their particular race or bloodline. The Tartan Day [1] Resolution [2], passed by the U.S. Congress in 1998 outlines the facts and details relating to U.S. history being intertwined with Scot's history. Many Americans without direct Scottish ancestry have taken to wearing non-tartan casual kilts as well as traditional kilts sportng appropriate district tartans; The
American National Tartan [3], the Canadian National Tartan [4] or a state [5]/provincial [6], club or military service tartan (U.S. Military Tartans [7]). Many see this as a way of celebrating our common Scots heritage.
The above was taken from the kilt article. It may properly belong under History of the kilt. However, it needs to be sourced and it seems more about general Scottish/Celtic cultural growth and not so specifically about the kilt. Also, about the section header: if there has been a revival, doesn't that mean there was a previous 'vival'? When was the vival?
I do suspect there has been some growth of interest in the kilt in recent years, but shouldn't this be supportable with industry statistics on sales, eh? JFPerry 13:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I just LO-O-OVE this ARTICLE! Bye, y'all! Wumbo 3:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but could some material from the Thomas Rawlinson article be incorporated into this article, please! It would really help me out. Thanks! Skrooball 19:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The above comments are now redundant. The current Thomas Rawlinson article includes the facts of the Ivan Baillie letter ascribing the invention of the modern kilt to Rawlinson, together with the assertion that the lower half of the belted plaid was worn on its own before Rawlinson's kilt, both with citations to their sources. The fact that Rawlinson's kilt had sewn-in pleats like a modern kilt, while the abbreviated belted plaid which may have been worn earlier did not, is also made. Robocon1 ( talk) 18:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The article says "Scottish troops last wore kilts in combat during WWI. In particular, the ferocious tactics of the Royal Highland Regiment led to their acquiring the nickname "Ladies from Hell" from the German troops that faced them in the trenches." but there are photographic sources such as photo (which shows Scottish POWs in 1940) wearing kilts at least into early WWII.
There are also photo's of Scottinh officers wearing kilts during Market-Garden, in 1944. These may hve been individual choices rather than unit orders, but they were kilyts worn in combat. Jahb ( talk) 20:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
What evidence is there that the Kilt or the Plaid was an "ancient" item of clothing? I mean actual historical evidence? As far as I'm aware the plaid is actually a relatively modern invention of the 16th century.
this article does not in anyway mention the irish. kilts are just as irish as they are scottish, and frankly i am sick of the implication that its a wholly scottish garment. furthormore the article doesn't go nearly far enough back. it makes insufficient mention of any related garments before the great kilt. trews and so called saffron shirts are to my understanding both possible predecessors. also just to sound as biased as humanly possible, most sources i've run across point to an irish origin for the kilt.
I'm afraid I must strongly disagree with the idea that kilts are as Irish as they are scottish. The simple fact is that they are not and never have been. Here in Ireland where I live the kilt is seen as a Scottish item of clothing. It is only worn by pipe bands and more recently at weddings.
There is no historical evidence of the kilt being worn in Ireland before the end of the 19th century, and even then it was limited to mainly boys Irish Dancing costumes and some Catholic Private schools, as a symbol of pan-celticsm. It has been all but abandoned in Irish Dancing, thanks largely to Riverdance.
The historical garment of Ireland is the Léine which was basically a long shirt or tunic sometimes worn with a belt around the waste. It in no way resembled or is connected to the kilt we know today.
The notion that kilts are Irish seems to originate with the Irish-Americans keen to have an outward symbol of their celtic origins. Nothing wrong with this and a good choice, unfortunately it seems to have sprung a need for Irish-Americans to concoct a mythology around it's "ancient origins" in order to justify it's wearing. Where as here in Ireland we know it's not really anything to do with us but wear it mostly for fun at weddings and even at that very rarely.
I attended a wedding in Mayo two years ago at Ballintubber Abbey to be precise. The bride was a born and bred Mayo woman the groom an Irish-American from upstate New York. On the bride's (i.e Irish) side of the church there was not one kilt amongst the guests or family, on the American side all the men wore kilts !. At the reception afterwards the American's were more than surprised to find out that no one wore kilts in Ireland, apart from pipers.
The kilt as we know it today originated in the Scottish Highlands of the 16th century, was modified to what we know now in the 18th Century, took off as the national dress of Scotland after 1822 and George IV's visit and got the British establishment seal of approval in Victorian Britain.
In the islands of Britain and Ireland it has been adopted in the late 20th century amongst other celtic nations as a pan celtic symbol, but everyone is aware that it's history is firmly rooted in the Scottish Highlands.
You'll have to get over it my friend can't change reality to suit romantic notions.
EddieLu 15:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi a careful reading of my comment and you would have noticed my line "There is no historical evidence of the kilt being worn in Ireland before the end of the 19th century". So the photo in your local pub fits in perfectly with my point. There was a bit of a pan celtic revival at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries here in Ireland. The saffron kilt was adopted as a symbol by some as a resistance to British rule, it wasn't widespread but was taken up by some private Catholic Schools, I believe the one that Padraig Pearse taught is one such, was used as a boys Irish Dancing costume, and did occasionally appear at political meetings. Once things got serious after 1916 the Irish had other things to worry about. The only notable Irish lord or chieftain that I have heard of wearing a kilt in the early 20thc was Sir Shane Leslie 3rd Baronet of Castle Leslie in Monaghan, at the time he was considered quite eccentric (indeed his son Jack Leslie who is 90 is famous for being an ardent clubber as in House/Acid music) Sir Shane was a fervent Nationalist and stood as a Nationalist candidate in 1910, his kilt wearing was the outward sign of his celtic nationalism. Anyway next time your in the pub have a pint for me and I'll do the same for you in Ireland, cheers. EddieLu 15:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC) check out the following [8] EddieLu 11:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Two book reviews which you may wish to note of Trevor Ropers book http://www.nysun.com/arts/hugh-trevor-ropers-the-invention-of-scotland/82417/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/06/08/botre108.xml rumjal 09:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I just reverted a couple edits by Steafan31 ( [9], [10], [11]). The edits were pretty extreme and the source is suspect being only a Victorian newspaper clipping. Stating there are old Gaelic manuscripts with images of kilts dating from the 800s; Scottish kings wearing kilts in 1000s and 1100s; also the bit about James V in 1538 is garbled - the account isn't regarding a kilt but of a velvet jacket and tartan hose.-- Celtus ( talk) 06:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the reliability of this newspaper, it received contributions from historians and other interested parties who would write for it, sending in articles from Scotland and of course Gaelic Canada. The [ newspaper] itself ran from 1892 to 1904.-- Steafan31 ( talk) 12:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
No where does this article mention that the English invented the kilt; see Hugh Trevor Roper et al. This is a serious failing. 195.217.128.36 ( talk) 07:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
erm, maybe if you actually tried reading the article you would understand that the English did not 'invent' the kilt. In reality, the modern kilt evolved from the belted plaid, now called the 'great kilt'. The Trevor-Roper material is explored in the article.
Why do some people feel content to post comments in the discussion page without even reading the article in question? Beats me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.156.207 ( talk) 12:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually the Wikipedia article "The Kilt" mentions that an English Quaker invemted the small kilt [ Hobsbawm & Ranger 1983, pp. 22–23.]. Acorn897 ( talk) 22:59, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This is the relevant section from the source used in this article, from the website of the Scottish Tartans Museum, North Carolina: One story commonly repeated is that an Englishman named Thomas Rawlinson opened an iron-smelting factory in the Highlands around the year 1730. His workers all dressed in the belted plaids, which proved too hot and cumbersome for close work in his factory. He solved the problem by cutting the garment in half. The lower part could now be worn separately and the upper part discarded when coming indoors. This is considered proof that an Englishman invented the Scottish national dress. The problem with this story is that we know of numerous illustrations of Highlanders wearing the only the bottom part of the belted plaid that date long before Rawlinson ever set foot in Scotland.(...) I will not go into detailed evidence of the wearing of the phillabeg here, but I will say that there is some suggestion of its use in the late 17th century, and it was definitely being worn in the early 18th century. It most likely came about as a natural evolution of the belted plaid and Rawlinson probably observed its and quickly deduced its usefulness in his situation and introduced it among his workers. ENDS
1. The account in Hobsbawm & Ranger's The Invention of Tradition is the first documented evidence of something like a modern kilt, published in the Edinburgh Magazine, 1785. It is stated that it was not challenged at the time. The Invention of Tradition is a properly referenced academic textbook published by the Cambridge University Press.
2. Hobsbawm & Ranger states that Rawlinson's philibeg "was achieved by separating the the skirt from the plaid and and converting it into a distinct garment, with pleats already sewn." But the source used for this article, the website of a tartan museum in the USA, claims that the first 'tailored' kilt is from 1792 and is an exhibit in their museum. It could therefore be said to be in their interest to rubbish competing evidence. There are no references to the sources of the information for the tartan museum's text, or for their statement that the philibeg was worn in the late 17th century. "Evidence" for this often seems to consist of illustrations of the period, the details of which, being woodcuts, are open to differing interpretations. Hobsbawm & Ranger also states that the first painting of a recognizable modern kilt, not a belted plaid, is of the son of the clan chief who was a friend of Rawlinson's.
Can anyone supply a properly referenced academic source which provides documentary evidence as good as Hobsbawm & Ranger for the philibeg with sewn pleats, or the philibeg itself, being in use before Rawlinson's version? Robocon1 ( talk) 19:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Apologies, I now notice that the oldest tailored kilt is with the Scottish Tartans Authority, not the Scottish Tartans Museum. The problem remains that the bulk of this article is taken from the website of a tartan museum in North Carolina rather than a recognised source such as a textbook or encyclopedia. Robocon1 ( talk) 13:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
No-one having come up with any source other than the Scottish Tartans Museum website, I have just edited The small kilt or walking kilt section to reflect the fact that Baillie's account is not 'a story' that has been disproved (see
Thomas Rawlinson, Talk: Accuracy Redux) and that it's the first documented evidence of a tailored kilt with sewn in pleats like a modern kilt. I've left in the Scottish Tartan Museum reference to the bottom half of the belted plaid being worn in the 1690s pending some definitive evidence being cited
Robocon1 (
talk) 12:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Vikings did not wear kilts, they wore long tunics or shirts over trews: http://sciencenordic.com/what-vikings-really-looked http://www.danishnet.com/info.php/vikings/clothing-137.html This was a style of dress for men common across medieval Europe. A kilt is a pleated garment which is not worn over trousers. The fact that a Scottish word may be derived from an Old Norse word proves nothing. Many words of Norse derivation occur in Scottish Gaelic, northern English dialects and modern English, because of Viking settlement. For instance, the modern Lowland Scots dialect word for a cushion is the same as the word in modern Swedish: kudde. That doesn't mean that Swedish Vikings invented the cushion and took it to Scotland. Robocon1 ( talk) 21:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
This page was identified as including a disambiguation error based on the term "AIX".
In order to resolve this problem I have removed the wikilink from the term as I am unable to determine, from the context, which exact place it is referring to. If you wish to restore the link please ensure that the term and the link are fully resolved so that no further disambiguation occurs. Perry Middlemiss ( talk) 07:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Folklore sometimes has it that the plated-leather skirts of some types of Roman armour (e.g. the lorica segmentata and lorica squamata), worn by Romano-British soldiers at Hadrian's Wall and Antonine Wall, inspired Pictish immitation in the form of cloth kilts, while in reality there is no sure evidence of kilt-wearing in Scotland until the late 16th century. I know I read about this in a published source some time in the 1980s, though at this remove I have no idea what that book was. I imagine it has been covered in more than one source by now, and it is probably worth mentioning and effectively dismissing in our article. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Kilt#Thomas Rawlinson for a discussion that should be centralized at one place, as it affects three articles. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Our current text says: "A letter written by Ivan Baillie in 1768 and published in the Edinburgh Magazine in March 1785 states that the garment people would recognize as a kilt today was invented in the 1720s by Thomas Rawlinson, a Quaker from Lancashire." But other sources including Thomas Innes of Learney and J. G. Mackay put that publication in The Scots Magazine. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
We seem to have gotten Edinburgh Magazine from Thomas Rawlinson (industrialist) which cites no source for that. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
John Telfer Dunbar says it was Edinburgh Magazine. David Stewart of Garth says it was The Scots Magazine. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC)