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Under the "Allied undertakings to benefit from German know-how" section it mentions that the Yak-9 was built with German know how and was indeed a virtual copy of the P.011-45, but the link it provides clearly shows the Yak to be a piston engine plane developed long before the end of the war.
-- Agent of Fortune 09:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Terrible and egregious POV, particularly in the first few paragraphs. The comments below give a flavour of what I'm talking about. Most of the faulty information (which I realise is ported from the Luftwaffe page) was contributed by User:Trekphiler some months ago ( see this edit summary). Clearly, the article is not encyclopaedic the way it is now written. I would (and will) change it myself if necessary but I bet there are a whole bunch of wikipedians who know much more about this than I do and can do the article justice. Sad to see this text (on Luftwaffe) pointed at from the main page yesterday- not a good advert for our encyclopaedia at all. Examples include: Faulty German intelligence and poor leadership did as much to save Fighter Command as Dowding's careful husbanding of his precious pilots...The entry of the United States into the conflict in December 1941 drew American bomber forces into the same futile project....it produced a calamity with overtones of Haig in World War I. Futile project? Overtones of Haig? Come on. Whether true or not, the POV is clear and these statements are not properly verified. Badgerpatrol 01:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that the article should be extended to cover the period to 1935, including Luftwaffe participation in the Spanish Civil War. Andreas 10:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the pictures in this article aren't the best possible. Now there are pictures of Ju-287, me-262 and He-219, all of which were mere curiosities, and not a single picture of Me-109 or Focke-Wulf 190, which were the most important German planes in the war. Latre 18:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, why isn't there a single picture of Hermann Goering? Surely the chief of the Luftwaffe during WW2 deserves to have his picture somewhere in the article? HuronKing, October 25th 2006
i am not entirely convinced that the battle of Britain was the begining of the end for the Luftwaffe. Whilst it's true that they lost many experienced aircrew in what turned out to be a futile battle of attrition, they were again to repeat thier spectacular air successes they had experienced during Poland and France in Russia. Also what about the defense of their homeland. American bombers received such a mauling from german fighters (once they realised how to attack them properly) that daylight operations over Germany were almost cancelled until the arrival of long range allied fighters. one of the main problems of the luftwaffe apart from having the wrong man in control (Goering and Udet) was a paradox to their initial success. Whilst the allies concentrated on making many aircraft designed for teh same role Spitfire, hurricane etc the Germans simply relied on one or two types eg fw190 or me109. whilst many of the multitude of allied aircraft eventually bore fruit eg mosquito, the Germans found their aircarft could only be upgraded to a limited degree the me109 being a classic case in point whilst still flying at the end of the war it was bascically obselete. The other problem was of course production only matching that of the allies in 1944 ironically as the allies concentrated their war effort on aircraft production.
Mr phils
17:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This image shows a caricature of a jew in a Luftwaffe training document. This should go towards creation of a subsection on the nazi focus of the luftwaffe, some details of which I left mention of over @ Talk:Luftwaffe#Historical Revisionism. Dee Mac Con Uladh 15:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
81.152.120.67 12:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)== Changes ==
When I first saw this article I was shocked at the poor content, lack of depth and factual information which was particularly annoying for us Luftwaffe enthusiasts. I have added quite a bit of information and extra sources. But this page is in dire need of images of standard aircraft of the time. I have tried but my computer skills are not so good, it was a pitty I had a great picture of a Dornier Do17P 'Condor Legion' for the Spanish Civil War section. 81.152.120.67 12:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm in the process of expanding and changing this article. I have cleared up most of the above, added the needed citations and deleted the POV ish style language. I will keep an eye on it. I think the last section should be under further reading so i will create a section for it. I will also correct the ref's and notes. Dapi89 23:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a huge backlog of things I'm supposed to be doing. Maybe I'll fix your Biblio section sometime in the next two or three weeks... sorry I can't do more... -- Ling.Nut 00:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm curently expanding this section. Hopefully I'll have completed it within the next few days to cover 1942 onwards Dapi89 16:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC).
1- Done (I could only see one example )
2- Done - I think. Dapi89 19:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to grant this article GA status, and I hope that doesn't seem churlish given the level of effort that seems to have gone into it. The main criteria I can see that it fails on are being well written and being too broad in coverage (doesn't stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details). I will explain these points in more detail below:
Essentially, there is too much content, and the content is too sloppy - the whole article needs to be "tightened" up - I would say this needs to be a two stage process - identify content that can be removed - both entire sections that don't fit within the article scope and also where too much detail is provided within a given section where the section itself is relevant. (this content could be moved to daughter articles rather than being lost entirely) Secondly, I would then advise a really good copyedit. This is not the fault of the primary author, who has done sterling work on this article - it is simply a necessity that whoever you are somebody else copyedits your work to catch grammatical errors, fix ambiguity of prose etc etc. Trim it done, tidy it up and I would say it will be GA on its way to FA. Tighten, tighten, tighten! :-) Many thanks - PocklingtonDan ( talk) 14:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Dissapointed to say the least. The spelling as regard to sirens I didnt put in. I don't agree with this article having too much detail. The name of the article suggests there should be heavy detail about its combat operations, and I dont think that 83 citations (mostly from me) is that bad, even for an article this long. It had been neglected and contained much POV when I started the massive revamp a couple of months ago - in short it was a mess. I disagree with "content being too sloppy". It is well ordered and described in considerable detail the contribution to the campaigns. The french and Western Campaign is just justifiably lengthy - it was one of the most important operations during the war. Overall simply skipping the detail and producing in a simplistic article won't give readers much. Really disappointed. Dapi89 18:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi Bzuk.
I was hoping you would have a look at the above article. I have undergone a massive editorial edit over the past few months. It seems to have failed a GA rating because it has "too much detail" in it! Could you have a look and tell me what you think? RegardsDapi89 18:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Based on a cursory read of the article, I would say that the following main points should be considered:
Length: the amount of detail is sufficient for an encyclopedic article but adding or expanding the article will lead to a call to create separate "sub-articles." Tone: A number of instances of editorializing are noted without adequate citations to corroborate the statement. A general rule for a GA candidate is to have a minimum of one citation per paragraph and more if there are contentious areas to consider. I counted eight "redlinks" which are not usually a problem but indicates that the Wiki links are not always as strong as they could be. Style: A divergence in writing styles is not as noticeable given that there are many authors/editors at work here, but an experienced editor can make a difference in at least establishing a consistent style, for example using an active "voice" throughout. The use of paragraphing is not consistent and the excessive number of "spellos" and "typos" jumped out at me. Notes/References Style guide usage: I am not a fan of the Harvard template used in the article and if I was rewriting it, I would ditch the present templates and "scratch" cite/reference the entire article. The repeat note from a single source is also apparent and should be incorporated in the usual Wiki note wherein the repeated citations are grouped together. Although there is a "Notes" section, this is not found in the style guides that Wikipedia advocates (although anything goes here as long as the main editing is consistent and follows a sensible pattern). There are minor variations noticed in the references that can be cleaned up but that is only a minor issue. The number of references seem somewhat limited in that there should be a wealth of reference material available in both generalized and specialized works. An inconsistency in coverage is also noted in that some of the sections established are overly long while others are much too short. Graphic "look": the use of photographs is effective but a change to the standard "thumb" size may have to be made if ten or more photographs are used. FWIW Bzuk 20:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC).
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Under the "Allied undertakings to benefit from German know-how" section it mentions that the Yak-9 was built with German know how and was indeed a virtual copy of the P.011-45, but the link it provides clearly shows the Yak to be a piston engine plane developed long before the end of the war.
-- Agent of Fortune 09:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Terrible and egregious POV, particularly in the first few paragraphs. The comments below give a flavour of what I'm talking about. Most of the faulty information (which I realise is ported from the Luftwaffe page) was contributed by User:Trekphiler some months ago ( see this edit summary). Clearly, the article is not encyclopaedic the way it is now written. I would (and will) change it myself if necessary but I bet there are a whole bunch of wikipedians who know much more about this than I do and can do the article justice. Sad to see this text (on Luftwaffe) pointed at from the main page yesterday- not a good advert for our encyclopaedia at all. Examples include: Faulty German intelligence and poor leadership did as much to save Fighter Command as Dowding's careful husbanding of his precious pilots...The entry of the United States into the conflict in December 1941 drew American bomber forces into the same futile project....it produced a calamity with overtones of Haig in World War I. Futile project? Overtones of Haig? Come on. Whether true or not, the POV is clear and these statements are not properly verified. Badgerpatrol 01:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that the article should be extended to cover the period to 1935, including Luftwaffe participation in the Spanish Civil War. Andreas 10:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the pictures in this article aren't the best possible. Now there are pictures of Ju-287, me-262 and He-219, all of which were mere curiosities, and not a single picture of Me-109 or Focke-Wulf 190, which were the most important German planes in the war. Latre 18:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, why isn't there a single picture of Hermann Goering? Surely the chief of the Luftwaffe during WW2 deserves to have his picture somewhere in the article? HuronKing, October 25th 2006
i am not entirely convinced that the battle of Britain was the begining of the end for the Luftwaffe. Whilst it's true that they lost many experienced aircrew in what turned out to be a futile battle of attrition, they were again to repeat thier spectacular air successes they had experienced during Poland and France in Russia. Also what about the defense of their homeland. American bombers received such a mauling from german fighters (once they realised how to attack them properly) that daylight operations over Germany were almost cancelled until the arrival of long range allied fighters. one of the main problems of the luftwaffe apart from having the wrong man in control (Goering and Udet) was a paradox to their initial success. Whilst the allies concentrated on making many aircraft designed for teh same role Spitfire, hurricane etc the Germans simply relied on one or two types eg fw190 or me109. whilst many of the multitude of allied aircraft eventually bore fruit eg mosquito, the Germans found their aircarft could only be upgraded to a limited degree the me109 being a classic case in point whilst still flying at the end of the war it was bascically obselete. The other problem was of course production only matching that of the allies in 1944 ironically as the allies concentrated their war effort on aircraft production.
Mr phils
17:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This image shows a caricature of a jew in a Luftwaffe training document. This should go towards creation of a subsection on the nazi focus of the luftwaffe, some details of which I left mention of over @ Talk:Luftwaffe#Historical Revisionism. Dee Mac Con Uladh 15:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
81.152.120.67 12:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)== Changes ==
When I first saw this article I was shocked at the poor content, lack of depth and factual information which was particularly annoying for us Luftwaffe enthusiasts. I have added quite a bit of information and extra sources. But this page is in dire need of images of standard aircraft of the time. I have tried but my computer skills are not so good, it was a pitty I had a great picture of a Dornier Do17P 'Condor Legion' for the Spanish Civil War section. 81.152.120.67 12:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm in the process of expanding and changing this article. I have cleared up most of the above, added the needed citations and deleted the POV ish style language. I will keep an eye on it. I think the last section should be under further reading so i will create a section for it. I will also correct the ref's and notes. Dapi89 23:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a huge backlog of things I'm supposed to be doing. Maybe I'll fix your Biblio section sometime in the next two or three weeks... sorry I can't do more... -- Ling.Nut 00:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm curently expanding this section. Hopefully I'll have completed it within the next few days to cover 1942 onwards Dapi89 16:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC).
1- Done (I could only see one example )
2- Done - I think. Dapi89 19:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to grant this article GA status, and I hope that doesn't seem churlish given the level of effort that seems to have gone into it. The main criteria I can see that it fails on are being well written and being too broad in coverage (doesn't stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details). I will explain these points in more detail below:
Essentially, there is too much content, and the content is too sloppy - the whole article needs to be "tightened" up - I would say this needs to be a two stage process - identify content that can be removed - both entire sections that don't fit within the article scope and also where too much detail is provided within a given section where the section itself is relevant. (this content could be moved to daughter articles rather than being lost entirely) Secondly, I would then advise a really good copyedit. This is not the fault of the primary author, who has done sterling work on this article - it is simply a necessity that whoever you are somebody else copyedits your work to catch grammatical errors, fix ambiguity of prose etc etc. Trim it done, tidy it up and I would say it will be GA on its way to FA. Tighten, tighten, tighten! :-) Many thanks - PocklingtonDan ( talk) 14:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Dissapointed to say the least. The spelling as regard to sirens I didnt put in. I don't agree with this article having too much detail. The name of the article suggests there should be heavy detail about its combat operations, and I dont think that 83 citations (mostly from me) is that bad, even for an article this long. It had been neglected and contained much POV when I started the massive revamp a couple of months ago - in short it was a mess. I disagree with "content being too sloppy". It is well ordered and described in considerable detail the contribution to the campaigns. The french and Western Campaign is just justifiably lengthy - it was one of the most important operations during the war. Overall simply skipping the detail and producing in a simplistic article won't give readers much. Really disappointed. Dapi89 18:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi Bzuk.
I was hoping you would have a look at the above article. I have undergone a massive editorial edit over the past few months. It seems to have failed a GA rating because it has "too much detail" in it! Could you have a look and tell me what you think? RegardsDapi89 18:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Based on a cursory read of the article, I would say that the following main points should be considered:
Length: the amount of detail is sufficient for an encyclopedic article but adding or expanding the article will lead to a call to create separate "sub-articles." Tone: A number of instances of editorializing are noted without adequate citations to corroborate the statement. A general rule for a GA candidate is to have a minimum of one citation per paragraph and more if there are contentious areas to consider. I counted eight "redlinks" which are not usually a problem but indicates that the Wiki links are not always as strong as they could be. Style: A divergence in writing styles is not as noticeable given that there are many authors/editors at work here, but an experienced editor can make a difference in at least establishing a consistent style, for example using an active "voice" throughout. The use of paragraphing is not consistent and the excessive number of "spellos" and "typos" jumped out at me. Notes/References Style guide usage: I am not a fan of the Harvard template used in the article and if I was rewriting it, I would ditch the present templates and "scratch" cite/reference the entire article. The repeat note from a single source is also apparent and should be incorporated in the usual Wiki note wherein the repeated citations are grouped together. Although there is a "Notes" section, this is not found in the style guides that Wikipedia advocates (although anything goes here as long as the main editing is consistent and follows a sensible pattern). There are minor variations noticed in the references that can be cleaned up but that is only a minor issue. The number of references seem somewhat limited in that there should be a wealth of reference material available in both generalized and specialized works. An inconsistency in coverage is also noted in that some of the sections established are overly long while others are much too short. Graphic "look": the use of photographs is effective but a change to the standard "thumb" size may have to be made if ten or more photographs are used. FWIW Bzuk 20:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC).