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During the recent deletion discussion, many expressed discontent with the current title, including people arguing for deletion as well as people arguing for inclusion, specifically that the word 'history' was misleading in this case, that the article was more about Jews and Israelis in Nepal, and not about the history of the Jews in that land, which -- I think most agreed -- is unsubstantial, and limited to the past few decades. I think there is agreement that there is not a strong permanent presence of Jews in Nepal, although a strong tourist population as well as Jewish outreach organizations such as Chabad. It is likely that the term 'history' caused the deletion discussion to begin in the first place. User @ Nyttend: proposed renaming or moving the article to Judaism in Nepal which seems, in my view, to accurately and succinctly describe the article. The question, then: should we change the article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 12:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
There is now an official WP:Deletion review, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30#History of the Jews in Nepal. Thanks, IZAK ( talk) 13:27, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
I haven't included Olga Murray and her Nepal Youth Foundation. It looks like an important and valuable charity, and the founder is of Jewish background, but the connection is perhaps not strong enough.-- Pharos ( talk) 23:42, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
A lot of the recently added material has nothing to do with history, and is more WP:RECENTISM and news articles. The entire History_of_the_Jews_in_Nepal#Security_issues section for example.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 09:34, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
As per comment on
Spikenard talk page
[1], Old Testament and New Testament differ with respect to plant, so how this should be characterized or what the relevance is to this article is questionable considering that the individual mentioned is 11th century (which is after the Radhanite era).
"Karim" are described as being mentioned in Islamic sources, and not as "Jewish".--
Ubikwit
連絡
見学/迷惑
07:03, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
For some or other odd reason many people do not understand that for many, Israel and Israelis are very secular and thus have nothing to do with Judaism! Israel is the Jewish state but the majority of its Jews do not adhere to Judaism. So it is absurd to make this into an article about "Judaism" when the Israelis do not practice it and often know nothing about it. In addition this article also discusses topics not related to Judaism, such as Islamic terrorists targeting of Jews that has nothing to do with Judaism as such. Thus Jewish history is the correct all-inclusive nomenclature for this article just as it is for virtually all articles about "History of the Jews in ____" in Category:Jewish history by country. Finally WP:CONSENSUS at both Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal (AFD) and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30 (DRV) clearly established that this article remains as History of the Jews in Nepal. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 01:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
NOTE: The majority of LEGITIMATE WP:CONSENSUS is on the side of History of the Jews in Nepal based on the 9 Keep votes (versus 6 Deletes) at the AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal and the 14 Keep votes (versus the 8 Deletes) (I tried to count them as best I could) at the DRV Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30. The closing of the RFC above #RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'? is OUT OF ORDER because it was started on 30 June 2014 and closed on 12 August 2014 during which time the official DRV was opened on the same day on 30 June 2014 and closed on 8 July 2014 that should have shut off the DRV or at least made it moot and irrelevant, but it got dragged out for over another month and a half, not taking into account that it was put out of business by the DRV, and then just by dint of laziness and lack of attention or just ignorance on the part of the closer, the RFC was left open just long enough for just 5 votes to Support the RFC versus 2 Opposing since the majority of users would have seen the notice on 1 July 2014 Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#DRV that the main debate was moved over to the DRV: "There is now an official WP:Deletion review, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30#History of the Jews in Nepal". Trickery and fraud does not create "consensus" and results that are illegitimate have no validity. IZAK ( talk) 09:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
While I recognize the futility of arguing with the legions of partisans of this article, nonetheless my intellectual integrity behooves me to point out the error of this lead.
"In modern times, significant numbers of Israelis and Jewish people have visited Nepal... " The contention that significant numbers of Jewish people - as distinct from Israelis - have visited Nepal is completely unsupported by the article, and purely speculative. If the author is counting Israelis as Jews - something that User:IZAK rightly doubts - then the lead could read "significant numbers of Israeli Jews". As written, it suggests that a significant number of Jews who are not Israelis have visited, something which, as I have said, is totally unsupported.
"... historically Judaism has not been one of the region's central religions and there has not been much of a Jewish presence in this region." "Not much" means some. This is not merely unsupported, but explicitly contradicted in the article. The article quotes scholar Eliahu Birnboim that "There was never a Jewish community in Nepal, not in the past and not in the present," as well as the Nepalese census of 2011.
The lead should read like this:
"In modern times, significant numbers of Israelis have visited Nepal for purposes of travel and tourism and spirituality and have had an impact on tourism and culture, although historically there has never been a Jewish community in Nepal."
-- Ravpapa ( talk) 13:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I think I have made my position clear in this matter: I am indifferent to the name of the article. It has no content, and therefore should have no name. It should be deleted.
Izak, by insisting on this spurious and embarrassing article, you are missing an opportunity. Rewrite the article about the only thing that is notable in it - the story of Chabad House in Katmandu. Get rid of everything else. Then offer it up for a name change to "Chabad House in Nepal". You can then be rid of all the trumped-up pseudofacts that make the current version of the article so offensive to everyone. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 08:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
The article currently mentions exactly two Jews who are not Israelis who are or were associated with Nepal: Sylvain Levi and Horace Kadoorie. There is also a quote from Gordis that some American Buddhists of Jewish extraction have visited Nepal - but there is no supporting evidence, there are no numbers, and the quote is completely unsupported. Everything else in the article is about Israelis - much of it already adequately covered in other Wikipedia articles.
So perhaps you want to call the article "Israelis and two Jews in Nepal"? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 17:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
To be more precise, the 2 other Chabad houses apart from Kathmandu are temporary and open according to the tourist season. The 3rd Chabad house in Manang is only active on the holiday of Passover providing the Israelis trekking a place to celebrate the holiday in the middle of trekking. TMLN123 ( talk) 09:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
What is the relevance of the section "Israelis and Nepal" to the article? There seems to be no content related to Judaism in that section now that the embassy connection to the sponsoring of the seder celebration has been moved to religious life, where it belongs.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 03:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for posting yet again, after I promised not to. But I really do have to point out that, however passionate your comment may be, it only accentuates the failing of this article. You ask, "How do you propose to deal with those Jews, Jewish scholars, and Israeli Jews who have a ... connection with Nepal ... " Well, the article mentions exactly one Jewish scholar (Levi), and exactly one non-Israeli Jew (Horace Kadoorie) with any connection to Nepal. You ask "If Jews reject Judaism and accept Buddhism and spend years in Nepal is that part of this topic or not?" But in fact, the only mention of such people is a a two-word reference in the quote from Gordis, which is presented pretty much as conjecture, not provable fact.
Of Israelis (who, I know, I know, are also Jews) there is a good deal of mention.
What you need to support the central premise of this article - that there is a relationship between Judaism or Jews in general and Nepal - is some hard facts. Like, "Researcher Moishe Zukhmir estimates that there are 500 Americans of Jewish origin studying in Buddhist monasteries in Nepal." Or, "Rabbi Chezky estimates that about 80 percent of attendees at the Seder were Israelis, the rest (about 300) were Americans and other nationalities."
Do you have such quotes? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 10:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Jews are Jews be they Israeli not. That's why Jewish history always covers all topics like this. You know, the more I think about, as I try to understand why some people are so anti this article, I come to the conclusion that it's from two core sources. One source for the objections is from an Israeli-Zionist POV that is just plain mad that so many young Israelis choose to go to places like Nepal for their spiritual pilgrimages that so outrages the Israeli-Zionists because it is a slap in the face of their notion that "Zionism is ubber alles". The second source for the opposition to this topic seems to come from some so-called "orientalists" who are outraged that Jews and Israelis are treading on the "holy ground" of what is supposed to be a holy "shangri la" when they would much prefer that it be a case of "no Jews welcome" in this exotic place reserved for those with a "higher-consciousness" and a "higher wisdom" that does not feel comfortable with mundane Jewish backpackers and cooky Chabadniks floating around the place cheapening the whole aura of the place. So what you then have is a weird "alliance" between nationalistic Zionists out to protect the "purity" of their dream joining with people who just don't like pesky Jews floating around in all nooks and crannies who don't even like Zionists, but when it comes to some topics both sides will unite to fight the common enemy: Valid Jewish presence and Jewish history in places like Nepal, all backed up with good enough WP:V & WP:RS to withstand an AFD, an DRV, and various other efforts to demolish this poor little article that stands like a meek little hero in a Tintin comic book, like poor little Chang Chong-Chen in the The Blue Lotus and in Tintin in Tibet facing all sorts of enemies that want to do it in for no good reasons. Just some thoughts on this ongoing debate that should have ended by now but just keeps going on and on... IZAK ( talk) 03:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I should give some references for my recent changes, which are explained inadequately in the edit comments.
According to the national tourism statistics document for 2012, 7151 Israelis came to Nepal in 2012. This is 1.2 percent of total tourism to Nepal. Of these, 62 said their visit was for spiritual reasons ("pilgrimage"), or less than 1 percent. The average stay for an Israeli tourist was 16.25 days, compared to 20.23 days for Australians, 21.65 days for Finns, 20.12 days for Danes. In other words, Israelis do not stay in Nepal any longer than other tourists, and shorter than many other nationalities.
In light of these statistics, it is impossible to call the Israeli tourist presence in Nepal "significant". These statistics also call into question the reliability of Birnbaum as a source, as they contradict at least two of his specific factual claims. They also contradict the contention of Gordis, at least regarding Israelis. Whether Gordis is correct about Americans is questionable, but I have not pursued the question.
In any case, I am deleting the first part of the Gordis quote. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 18:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I see, IZAK, that you have reverted the edits I made. Excepting the last edit, about which you are right (see post above), all of the edits were to correct factual errors, or to correct misleading syntax based on factual errors. I list them here:
Please correct these factual errors in the article. Thank you. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 06:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I have reorganized the article so that it is not so negative, is actually relevant to the subject, and is factually accurate. I have, I think, preserved all of the content of the original version, except for the section on the conversion centers, which, as I pointed out earlier on this talk page, is incorrect. I also restored some of the material I had deleted earlier, by putting it into a context that makes sense.
My hope had been to reach this reorganization through dialogue with Izak, who has invested a lot of work in the article. Discussion with him has proven difficult, though I respect the passion he expresses for the advancement of this and other articles with Jewish content. After his last post, I felt that progress might be better made by proceeding on my own, and I have done so.
The article, of course, is still open for revision and improvement. No urgency, though, as Izak points out, Jewish holidays are upon us and a lot of us will be busy with other things. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 12:31, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
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It is requested that an image or photograph of Judaism in Nepal be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Nepal may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 19 June 2014 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for deletion review on 30 June 2014. The result of the discussion was keep endorsed. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
During the recent deletion discussion, many expressed discontent with the current title, including people arguing for deletion as well as people arguing for inclusion, specifically that the word 'history' was misleading in this case, that the article was more about Jews and Israelis in Nepal, and not about the history of the Jews in that land, which -- I think most agreed -- is unsubstantial, and limited to the past few decades. I think there is agreement that there is not a strong permanent presence of Jews in Nepal, although a strong tourist population as well as Jewish outreach organizations such as Chabad. It is likely that the term 'history' caused the deletion discussion to begin in the first place. User @ Nyttend: proposed renaming or moving the article to Judaism in Nepal which seems, in my view, to accurately and succinctly describe the article. The question, then: should we change the article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 12:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
There is now an official WP:Deletion review, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30#History of the Jews in Nepal. Thanks, IZAK ( talk) 13:27, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
I haven't included Olga Murray and her Nepal Youth Foundation. It looks like an important and valuable charity, and the founder is of Jewish background, but the connection is perhaps not strong enough.-- Pharos ( talk) 23:42, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
A lot of the recently added material has nothing to do with history, and is more WP:RECENTISM and news articles. The entire History_of_the_Jews_in_Nepal#Security_issues section for example.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 09:34, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
As per comment on
Spikenard talk page
[1], Old Testament and New Testament differ with respect to plant, so how this should be characterized or what the relevance is to this article is questionable considering that the individual mentioned is 11th century (which is after the Radhanite era).
"Karim" are described as being mentioned in Islamic sources, and not as "Jewish".--
Ubikwit
連絡
見学/迷惑
07:03, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
For some or other odd reason many people do not understand that for many, Israel and Israelis are very secular and thus have nothing to do with Judaism! Israel is the Jewish state but the majority of its Jews do not adhere to Judaism. So it is absurd to make this into an article about "Judaism" when the Israelis do not practice it and often know nothing about it. In addition this article also discusses topics not related to Judaism, such as Islamic terrorists targeting of Jews that has nothing to do with Judaism as such. Thus Jewish history is the correct all-inclusive nomenclature for this article just as it is for virtually all articles about "History of the Jews in ____" in Category:Jewish history by country. Finally WP:CONSENSUS at both Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal (AFD) and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30 (DRV) clearly established that this article remains as History of the Jews in Nepal. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 01:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
NOTE: The majority of LEGITIMATE WP:CONSENSUS is on the side of History of the Jews in Nepal based on the 9 Keep votes (versus 6 Deletes) at the AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal and the 14 Keep votes (versus the 8 Deletes) (I tried to count them as best I could) at the DRV Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30. The closing of the RFC above #RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'? is OUT OF ORDER because it was started on 30 June 2014 and closed on 12 August 2014 during which time the official DRV was opened on the same day on 30 June 2014 and closed on 8 July 2014 that should have shut off the DRV or at least made it moot and irrelevant, but it got dragged out for over another month and a half, not taking into account that it was put out of business by the DRV, and then just by dint of laziness and lack of attention or just ignorance on the part of the closer, the RFC was left open just long enough for just 5 votes to Support the RFC versus 2 Opposing since the majority of users would have seen the notice on 1 July 2014 Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#DRV that the main debate was moved over to the DRV: "There is now an official WP:Deletion review, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30#History of the Jews in Nepal". Trickery and fraud does not create "consensus" and results that are illegitimate have no validity. IZAK ( talk) 09:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
While I recognize the futility of arguing with the legions of partisans of this article, nonetheless my intellectual integrity behooves me to point out the error of this lead.
"In modern times, significant numbers of Israelis and Jewish people have visited Nepal... " The contention that significant numbers of Jewish people - as distinct from Israelis - have visited Nepal is completely unsupported by the article, and purely speculative. If the author is counting Israelis as Jews - something that User:IZAK rightly doubts - then the lead could read "significant numbers of Israeli Jews". As written, it suggests that a significant number of Jews who are not Israelis have visited, something which, as I have said, is totally unsupported.
"... historically Judaism has not been one of the region's central religions and there has not been much of a Jewish presence in this region." "Not much" means some. This is not merely unsupported, but explicitly contradicted in the article. The article quotes scholar Eliahu Birnboim that "There was never a Jewish community in Nepal, not in the past and not in the present," as well as the Nepalese census of 2011.
The lead should read like this:
"In modern times, significant numbers of Israelis have visited Nepal for purposes of travel and tourism and spirituality and have had an impact on tourism and culture, although historically there has never been a Jewish community in Nepal."
-- Ravpapa ( talk) 13:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I think I have made my position clear in this matter: I am indifferent to the name of the article. It has no content, and therefore should have no name. It should be deleted.
Izak, by insisting on this spurious and embarrassing article, you are missing an opportunity. Rewrite the article about the only thing that is notable in it - the story of Chabad House in Katmandu. Get rid of everything else. Then offer it up for a name change to "Chabad House in Nepal". You can then be rid of all the trumped-up pseudofacts that make the current version of the article so offensive to everyone. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 08:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
The article currently mentions exactly two Jews who are not Israelis who are or were associated with Nepal: Sylvain Levi and Horace Kadoorie. There is also a quote from Gordis that some American Buddhists of Jewish extraction have visited Nepal - but there is no supporting evidence, there are no numbers, and the quote is completely unsupported. Everything else in the article is about Israelis - much of it already adequately covered in other Wikipedia articles.
So perhaps you want to call the article "Israelis and two Jews in Nepal"? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 17:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
To be more precise, the 2 other Chabad houses apart from Kathmandu are temporary and open according to the tourist season. The 3rd Chabad house in Manang is only active on the holiday of Passover providing the Israelis trekking a place to celebrate the holiday in the middle of trekking. TMLN123 ( talk) 09:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
What is the relevance of the section "Israelis and Nepal" to the article? There seems to be no content related to Judaism in that section now that the embassy connection to the sponsoring of the seder celebration has been moved to religious life, where it belongs.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 03:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for posting yet again, after I promised not to. But I really do have to point out that, however passionate your comment may be, it only accentuates the failing of this article. You ask, "How do you propose to deal with those Jews, Jewish scholars, and Israeli Jews who have a ... connection with Nepal ... " Well, the article mentions exactly one Jewish scholar (Levi), and exactly one non-Israeli Jew (Horace Kadoorie) with any connection to Nepal. You ask "If Jews reject Judaism and accept Buddhism and spend years in Nepal is that part of this topic or not?" But in fact, the only mention of such people is a a two-word reference in the quote from Gordis, which is presented pretty much as conjecture, not provable fact.
Of Israelis (who, I know, I know, are also Jews) there is a good deal of mention.
What you need to support the central premise of this article - that there is a relationship between Judaism or Jews in general and Nepal - is some hard facts. Like, "Researcher Moishe Zukhmir estimates that there are 500 Americans of Jewish origin studying in Buddhist monasteries in Nepal." Or, "Rabbi Chezky estimates that about 80 percent of attendees at the Seder were Israelis, the rest (about 300) were Americans and other nationalities."
Do you have such quotes? -- Ravpapa ( talk) 10:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Jews are Jews be they Israeli not. That's why Jewish history always covers all topics like this. You know, the more I think about, as I try to understand why some people are so anti this article, I come to the conclusion that it's from two core sources. One source for the objections is from an Israeli-Zionist POV that is just plain mad that so many young Israelis choose to go to places like Nepal for their spiritual pilgrimages that so outrages the Israeli-Zionists because it is a slap in the face of their notion that "Zionism is ubber alles". The second source for the opposition to this topic seems to come from some so-called "orientalists" who are outraged that Jews and Israelis are treading on the "holy ground" of what is supposed to be a holy "shangri la" when they would much prefer that it be a case of "no Jews welcome" in this exotic place reserved for those with a "higher-consciousness" and a "higher wisdom" that does not feel comfortable with mundane Jewish backpackers and cooky Chabadniks floating around the place cheapening the whole aura of the place. So what you then have is a weird "alliance" between nationalistic Zionists out to protect the "purity" of their dream joining with people who just don't like pesky Jews floating around in all nooks and crannies who don't even like Zionists, but when it comes to some topics both sides will unite to fight the common enemy: Valid Jewish presence and Jewish history in places like Nepal, all backed up with good enough WP:V & WP:RS to withstand an AFD, an DRV, and various other efforts to demolish this poor little article that stands like a meek little hero in a Tintin comic book, like poor little Chang Chong-Chen in the The Blue Lotus and in Tintin in Tibet facing all sorts of enemies that want to do it in for no good reasons. Just some thoughts on this ongoing debate that should have ended by now but just keeps going on and on... IZAK ( talk) 03:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I should give some references for my recent changes, which are explained inadequately in the edit comments.
According to the national tourism statistics document for 2012, 7151 Israelis came to Nepal in 2012. This is 1.2 percent of total tourism to Nepal. Of these, 62 said their visit was for spiritual reasons ("pilgrimage"), or less than 1 percent. The average stay for an Israeli tourist was 16.25 days, compared to 20.23 days for Australians, 21.65 days for Finns, 20.12 days for Danes. In other words, Israelis do not stay in Nepal any longer than other tourists, and shorter than many other nationalities.
In light of these statistics, it is impossible to call the Israeli tourist presence in Nepal "significant". These statistics also call into question the reliability of Birnbaum as a source, as they contradict at least two of his specific factual claims. They also contradict the contention of Gordis, at least regarding Israelis. Whether Gordis is correct about Americans is questionable, but I have not pursued the question.
In any case, I am deleting the first part of the Gordis quote. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 18:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I see, IZAK, that you have reverted the edits I made. Excepting the last edit, about which you are right (see post above), all of the edits were to correct factual errors, or to correct misleading syntax based on factual errors. I list them here:
Please correct these factual errors in the article. Thank you. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 06:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I have reorganized the article so that it is not so negative, is actually relevant to the subject, and is factually accurate. I have, I think, preserved all of the content of the original version, except for the section on the conversion centers, which, as I pointed out earlier on this talk page, is incorrect. I also restored some of the material I had deleted earlier, by putting it into a context that makes sense.
My hope had been to reach this reorganization through dialogue with Izak, who has invested a lot of work in the article. Discussion with him has proven difficult, though I respect the passion he expresses for the advancement of this and other articles with Jewish content. After his last post, I felt that progress might be better made by proceeding on my own, and I have done so.
The article, of course, is still open for revision and improvement. No urgency, though, as Izak points out, Jewish holidays are upon us and a lot of us will be busy with other things. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 12:31, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Judaism in Nepal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)