This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
History of the Jews in Leeds is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.YorkshireWikipedia:WikiProject YorkshireTemplate:WikiProject YorkshireYorkshire articles
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Today I put together the page "The Jews of Leeds" with sources/references to the stories of the Jews of that city. Whilst ending major edits i was twice presented with conflicting versions, and accepted some additions - categories. However I did not see why the title should be changed to Jews in Leeds, which to my ears is a bit curt or comical, like Jews in space. No reason was given. I see that most similar wiki articles use "of" but some use "in". meantime we have ended with one fuller version "The Jews of Leeds" with the first title which I prefer; and I shorter version i.e. with a lot of text / references missing "Jews in Leeds". I hope someone can help and authorise deletion of the shorter article. Thank you.
Philip Sugarman (
talk)
21:59, 26 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Philip Sugarman: I felt that Jews in Leeds was a better title because this would be more consistent with the current format on Wikipedia. I've now looked and perhaps another title I might suggest is "History of the Jews in Leeds", as some articles about Jews take on this title format. Let me know what you think.
747pilot (
talk)
23:54, 26 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Philip Sugarman,
747pilot, and
Mccapra: Please sort this out! I was drawn here because one version of the article linked to an article I had created so I was alerted to the link; I then edited to clarify the lead of one version, and discovered there are two parallel articles. It may be that an administrator needs to help, to sort out the history, so that we end up with ONE article which reflects that the article was
created by Philip at 15:13 yesterday. It was moved while he was still actively working on it (Hint: {{in use}} is useful to add as it warns people that you are still working on an article), resulting in the muddle we are currently seeing.
PamD08:00, 27 December 2021 (UTC)reply
For now, I've redirected the shorter article to the longer, to avoid further editing of two parallel articles, but the history needs to be merged to give due credit to the article creator and other editors. I've re-done my edit but there is interesting data to add from 2011 census data for "City of Leeds", "Leeds built-up area", and "Alwoodley ward" which I don't have time to do right now.
PamD08:10, 27 December 2021 (UTC)reply
expansion of this page
I have added about 85 summary bio to the notable people collection, nearly all fully referenced, esp from Palgrave dictionary of Anglo-Jewry.
Have re-edited demography to be more concise but kept all figures and key wording.
Have been gathering suggestions from the Leeds Jewish Facebook group and various contacts.
There has been a dispute about mentioning the 1/8th Jewish by descent Jack Straw, which has been noted now on the page, and also Arthur Louis Aaron. The latter, despite being noted Jewish by the Association of Jewish Ex-servicemen, has a detailed genealogy supplied by his family which appears to exclude completely that his parents and grandparents were anything other than baptised locals. I have referenced this as best I can.
@
Philip Sugarman: I've seen this page develop since having my attention drawn when it linked to a page I had created (probably
this one), but I'm increasingly uneasy about it. It seems to be a very large list of people, some but not all of whom are included in
List of people from Leeds, some but not all of whom meet Wikipedia's "notability" requirements (as evidenced by their having articles), and who have nothing in common except their religion/heritage and a connection with Leeds. We do not have a "List of notable Roman Catholics / Quakers / Muslims (etc) from Leeds (or any other city)", or a "List of notable Jews from xyz" for any other city value of "xyz", as far as I can see. I can see that a lot of work has gone into this list but I suspect that someone will arrive sooner or later and argue for its deletion. It is also formatted in a rather non-standard way: there are rules for when bold is used (see
MOS:BOLD), and for how to format lists, and this article does not comply. I'm sure there's scope for a much broader article about the history of the Leeds Jewish community, its moves around Leeds, its Synagogues, cemeteries, schools and other institutions, but the long list of individuals seems inappropriate. I see we have
List of British Jews: it would be useful to compare your additions with that list and add them there if they seem appropriate and are missing, as well as making sure they are all categorised as
Category:People from Leeds (I picked the first blue-linked name I found in "Community Leaders", and
Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog doesn't seem to be in that category, though, increasing the sample size to two, the first politician
Irwin Bellow, Baron Bellwin is in several "xyz from Leeds" categories.) I'm sure there are politico-religious sensitivities to tiptoe around, here, so I'll sit back and wait to see what happens, having chipped in a few population stats etc.
PamD18:18, 30 December 2021 (UTC)reply
There are also quite a few typos, sentences which don't make sense, dates of living people shown as "(1952-)" where Wikipedia always uses "(born 1952)" (I have corrected some which you have then undone; see
MOS:TOPRESENT). ... AH, I see you're correcting some typos as I type, notably Mik Kaminski!
PamD18:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)reply
use of blogspot
for Julie Grant's link with Leeds and membership of a Jewish youth club have used a blogspot reference which seems reliable, details fit with other online sources e.g. link with Frankie Vaughan. Happy if anyone has a better reference, i cannot find a biography
Philip Sugarman (
talk)
18:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd agree with a split, though I'm not convinced about the appropriateness of the massive list of people in any case (as I expressed above, a while back). There is no similar list for any other city/religion combination, as far as I can see (except Hull, with similar edit history).
History of the Jews in New York City is strong on history (and parks) but light on individual biographical listings, as is
History of the Jews in Geneva. I'm sure there's scope for a splendid comprehensive educational database celebrating the Jewish community of Leeds, but just not sure that it's appropriate for Wikipedia to be hosting it: perhaps one of the schools or synagogues would support such a project. We have a category system, and that should suffice. But, as I said above "I'm sure there are politico-religious sensitivities to tiptoe around, here, so I'll sit back and wait to see what happens". What happened was that the article grew hugely, with a lot of careful work going into it, but I remain unconvinced that the long biographical list ought to be here. Splitting would be good, certainly.
PamD17:26, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
I agree with your concerns about the sheer size of the article and proposed list; many of those included are also likely not notable. I proposed splitting this article and the other as a compromise measure with Philip Sugarman, as, in my opinion, large portions of the article should likely be removed. Certainly, in a list format, a lot of the background material included for each entry would be removed.
Lkb335 (
talk)
18:22, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll note that, before a split, some cleanup will be necessary; working on removing bloat and overcitation from the article right now.
Lkb335 (
talk)
19:46, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Declaring I am neither Jewish nor from the area so no affected loyalties, I think it is overlong in context with the rest of the article and includes people who (at least currently) have no article in wikipedia so do not fit easily fit the notability guideline criteria. I agree to a split from this article with the History concentrating on chronology and the development of the community.
Cloptonson (
talk)
17:39, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
As an update:
scope_creep and I have been removing bloat, overcitation, and non-notable entries from the Notable People section, in addition to general copyediting. After that is complete, I'll move forward with the split. We're almost done, I think.
Lkb335 (
talk)
14:10, 7 April 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Lkb335:@
PamD: I've removed three or four unreliable references, leaving two entries with a cn tag. I think they were using the JewishVirtualLibrary links, which is non-RS as an unreliable sourced. They will need referenced when the split is completed. The lord mayor should be fairly easy to fill, but other one I'm not sure. I'll take a look at it nearer the time. scope_creepTalk08:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)reply
This came up as a random article needing copyedit for me. I have changed (yyyy-) to (born yyyy) as discussed above. Apart from the redlinks, I don't think there are other c/e issues, and have removed the tag. The redlinks are a problem. I've removed a handful who do not look notable, but there are certainly more who could come off, and also some who on the information and reference here do look notable and who could have articles created.
Tacyarg (
talk)
15:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Keep for later use
Malcolm Chaikin (1923–2012) He became Australia's youngest-ever professor, in textile technology; later pro-vice-chancellor, University of New South Wales, Australia.[1]
Basil Gillinson (1925–2001) studied at Leeds School of Architecture, and with fellow Jewish architect Clifford Harry Barnett (born 1927) ran a practice in Leeds known for the
Merrion Centre in Leeds, and many other landmark UK modernist leisure facilities.[2]
Jay Rayner (born 1966) son of
Claire Rayner is now a broadcaster, writer, journalist, food critic, novelist and Jazz band pianist, in London. Day of Atonement (1998) was shortlisted for the Jewish Quarterly Prize for Fiction.[7]>
Jon Silkin (1930–97) was a London-born poet, lecturer, and founder/editor of literary magazine Stand. He took a late English degree and a Fellowship at
Leeds University, where the archives of Stand are now held.[8]
Jonathan Silver (1949–97) Bradford-born he studied Art History & Textiles at Leeds. He grew and sold a string of businesses, and developed Salts Mill, Saltaire, as art gallery, performance venue and shopping centre, before Saltaire village became a World Heritage Site.[9]
Alan Yentob (born 1947) television executive and presenter, studied law at
Leeds, and was involved in student drama. He later received an honorary degree.[12]
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
History of the Jews in Leeds is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.YorkshireWikipedia:WikiProject YorkshireTemplate:WikiProject YorkshireYorkshire articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
Today I put together the page "The Jews of Leeds" with sources/references to the stories of the Jews of that city. Whilst ending major edits i was twice presented with conflicting versions, and accepted some additions - categories. However I did not see why the title should be changed to Jews in Leeds, which to my ears is a bit curt or comical, like Jews in space. No reason was given. I see that most similar wiki articles use "of" but some use "in". meantime we have ended with one fuller version "The Jews of Leeds" with the first title which I prefer; and I shorter version i.e. with a lot of text / references missing "Jews in Leeds". I hope someone can help and authorise deletion of the shorter article. Thank you.
Philip Sugarman (
talk)
21:59, 26 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Philip Sugarman: I felt that Jews in Leeds was a better title because this would be more consistent with the current format on Wikipedia. I've now looked and perhaps another title I might suggest is "History of the Jews in Leeds", as some articles about Jews take on this title format. Let me know what you think.
747pilot (
talk)
23:54, 26 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Philip Sugarman,
747pilot, and
Mccapra: Please sort this out! I was drawn here because one version of the article linked to an article I had created so I was alerted to the link; I then edited to clarify the lead of one version, and discovered there are two parallel articles. It may be that an administrator needs to help, to sort out the history, so that we end up with ONE article which reflects that the article was
created by Philip at 15:13 yesterday. It was moved while he was still actively working on it (Hint: {{in use}} is useful to add as it warns people that you are still working on an article), resulting in the muddle we are currently seeing.
PamD08:00, 27 December 2021 (UTC)reply
For now, I've redirected the shorter article to the longer, to avoid further editing of two parallel articles, but the history needs to be merged to give due credit to the article creator and other editors. I've re-done my edit but there is interesting data to add from 2011 census data for "City of Leeds", "Leeds built-up area", and "Alwoodley ward" which I don't have time to do right now.
PamD08:10, 27 December 2021 (UTC)reply
expansion of this page
I have added about 85 summary bio to the notable people collection, nearly all fully referenced, esp from Palgrave dictionary of Anglo-Jewry.
Have re-edited demography to be more concise but kept all figures and key wording.
Have been gathering suggestions from the Leeds Jewish Facebook group and various contacts.
There has been a dispute about mentioning the 1/8th Jewish by descent Jack Straw, which has been noted now on the page, and also Arthur Louis Aaron. The latter, despite being noted Jewish by the Association of Jewish Ex-servicemen, has a detailed genealogy supplied by his family which appears to exclude completely that his parents and grandparents were anything other than baptised locals. I have referenced this as best I can.
@
Philip Sugarman: I've seen this page develop since having my attention drawn when it linked to a page I had created (probably
this one), but I'm increasingly uneasy about it. It seems to be a very large list of people, some but not all of whom are included in
List of people from Leeds, some but not all of whom meet Wikipedia's "notability" requirements (as evidenced by their having articles), and who have nothing in common except their religion/heritage and a connection with Leeds. We do not have a "List of notable Roman Catholics / Quakers / Muslims (etc) from Leeds (or any other city)", or a "List of notable Jews from xyz" for any other city value of "xyz", as far as I can see. I can see that a lot of work has gone into this list but I suspect that someone will arrive sooner or later and argue for its deletion. It is also formatted in a rather non-standard way: there are rules for when bold is used (see
MOS:BOLD), and for how to format lists, and this article does not comply. I'm sure there's scope for a much broader article about the history of the Leeds Jewish community, its moves around Leeds, its Synagogues, cemeteries, schools and other institutions, but the long list of individuals seems inappropriate. I see we have
List of British Jews: it would be useful to compare your additions with that list and add them there if they seem appropriate and are missing, as well as making sure they are all categorised as
Category:People from Leeds (I picked the first blue-linked name I found in "Community Leaders", and
Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog doesn't seem to be in that category, though, increasing the sample size to two, the first politician
Irwin Bellow, Baron Bellwin is in several "xyz from Leeds" categories.) I'm sure there are politico-religious sensitivities to tiptoe around, here, so I'll sit back and wait to see what happens, having chipped in a few population stats etc.
PamD18:18, 30 December 2021 (UTC)reply
There are also quite a few typos, sentences which don't make sense, dates of living people shown as "(1952-)" where Wikipedia always uses "(born 1952)" (I have corrected some which you have then undone; see
MOS:TOPRESENT). ... AH, I see you're correcting some typos as I type, notably Mik Kaminski!
PamD18:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)reply
use of blogspot
for Julie Grant's link with Leeds and membership of a Jewish youth club have used a blogspot reference which seems reliable, details fit with other online sources e.g. link with Frankie Vaughan. Happy if anyone has a better reference, i cannot find a biography
Philip Sugarman (
talk)
18:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I'd agree with a split, though I'm not convinced about the appropriateness of the massive list of people in any case (as I expressed above, a while back). There is no similar list for any other city/religion combination, as far as I can see (except Hull, with similar edit history).
History of the Jews in New York City is strong on history (and parks) but light on individual biographical listings, as is
History of the Jews in Geneva. I'm sure there's scope for a splendid comprehensive educational database celebrating the Jewish community of Leeds, but just not sure that it's appropriate for Wikipedia to be hosting it: perhaps one of the schools or synagogues would support such a project. We have a category system, and that should suffice. But, as I said above "I'm sure there are politico-religious sensitivities to tiptoe around, here, so I'll sit back and wait to see what happens". What happened was that the article grew hugely, with a lot of careful work going into it, but I remain unconvinced that the long biographical list ought to be here. Splitting would be good, certainly.
PamD17:26, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
I agree with your concerns about the sheer size of the article and proposed list; many of those included are also likely not notable. I proposed splitting this article and the other as a compromise measure with Philip Sugarman, as, in my opinion, large portions of the article should likely be removed. Certainly, in a list format, a lot of the background material included for each entry would be removed.
Lkb335 (
talk)
18:22, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll note that, before a split, some cleanup will be necessary; working on removing bloat and overcitation from the article right now.
Lkb335 (
talk)
19:46, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Declaring I am neither Jewish nor from the area so no affected loyalties, I think it is overlong in context with the rest of the article and includes people who (at least currently) have no article in wikipedia so do not fit easily fit the notability guideline criteria. I agree to a split from this article with the History concentrating on chronology and the development of the community.
Cloptonson (
talk)
17:39, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
As an update:
scope_creep and I have been removing bloat, overcitation, and non-notable entries from the Notable People section, in addition to general copyediting. After that is complete, I'll move forward with the split. We're almost done, I think.
Lkb335 (
talk)
14:10, 7 April 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Lkb335:@
PamD: I've removed three or four unreliable references, leaving two entries with a cn tag. I think they were using the JewishVirtualLibrary links, which is non-RS as an unreliable sourced. They will need referenced when the split is completed. The lord mayor should be fairly easy to fill, but other one I'm not sure. I'll take a look at it nearer the time. scope_creepTalk08:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)reply
This came up as a random article needing copyedit for me. I have changed (yyyy-) to (born yyyy) as discussed above. Apart from the redlinks, I don't think there are other c/e issues, and have removed the tag. The redlinks are a problem. I've removed a handful who do not look notable, but there are certainly more who could come off, and also some who on the information and reference here do look notable and who could have articles created.
Tacyarg (
talk)
15:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Keep for later use
Malcolm Chaikin (1923–2012) He became Australia's youngest-ever professor, in textile technology; later pro-vice-chancellor, University of New South Wales, Australia.[1]
Basil Gillinson (1925–2001) studied at Leeds School of Architecture, and with fellow Jewish architect Clifford Harry Barnett (born 1927) ran a practice in Leeds known for the
Merrion Centre in Leeds, and many other landmark UK modernist leisure facilities.[2]
Jay Rayner (born 1966) son of
Claire Rayner is now a broadcaster, writer, journalist, food critic, novelist and Jazz band pianist, in London. Day of Atonement (1998) was shortlisted for the Jewish Quarterly Prize for Fiction.[7]>
Jon Silkin (1930–97) was a London-born poet, lecturer, and founder/editor of literary magazine Stand. He took a late English degree and a Fellowship at
Leeds University, where the archives of Stand are now held.[8]
Jonathan Silver (1949–97) Bradford-born he studied Art History & Textiles at Leeds. He grew and sold a string of businesses, and developed Salts Mill, Saltaire, as art gallery, performance venue and shopping centre, before Saltaire village became a World Heritage Site.[9]
Alan Yentob (born 1947) television executive and presenter, studied law at
Leeds, and was involved in student drama. He later received an honorary degree.[12]