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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
You are the one who showed up at an article that had been basically static for months (if not years), and started making extremely aggressive edits to have it follow your original research POV.
I changed the article to have separate "technical" and "usage" threads because I thought (see comments above from User:Sdedeo 03:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC), and you 12:36, 6 September 2005, at #Peer review results) that that was something you thought would be an improvement; it also seemed to me (see my comments above) that it would make it easier to straighten this issue of "what influenced what" out if we separate the technical and usage threads.
However, I see that you have seen fit to completely discard the hours of work I put into that (keeping much of your text, moving other text to articles where it seemed more appropriate, etc), and simply reverted to your preferred version. (In this light, the irony of your comments about "Unanamous editing is not a good thing" is fairly stunning.)
I never consented to your massive rewrite (I don't have time to monitor every page on a daily basis, I've been busy with material elsewhere, as well as duties such as maintaining RfD). You and one other editor (Sdedeo) is not "consensus" - I don't concur, and I'll bet CoolCaesar (when he has time to drop in) won't agree either.
Since you don't like my version, and I don't like yours, we should simply revert to the last version before this dispute started (edit by User:Nixdorf on 21:33, 25 August 2005), and discuss the matter before making any changes at all to the prior content. Noel (talk) 17:15, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me point out to you that the notice box at the head of this page (the same one that was there when I made the edit)says only Please read this talk page discussion before making substantial changes. So your claim that it said I needed to discuss on the talk page before making substantial changes is incorrect. As should be completely obvious from that fact that I posted a lengthy note at 02:00, 15 September 2005, shortly before I did the edit to the article, I had read the talk page. Noel (talk) 18:48, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I've reverted to Squeakbox's version of September 4 and protected. Why doesn't everybody calm down and work this out? I know nothing of the subject, so I shall retreat. Notify me if you've worked it out and I'll unprotect. john k 18:27, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, I figure the first thing is to work out what structure the article should have. It seems to me that there are several possibilities:
Did I miss any reasonable ones? I don't have any particular preference among these, any would be fine with me, but I think readers might find #1 a bit confusing. Noel (talk) 18:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of moving this section to the bottom so that recent arrivals will see it. Noel (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
At the moment, we only have two pictures for the article. Both are escentialy showing early network maps, but are not really giving any tangiable content to the article. Nor do we have any information from cited sources as to what these maps are off. I'm still not sure of the interpretation of these as Internet maps. We've no texts to go with them to explain what they mean, or even what they are mapping. IntFeb82's date and content, showing what I assume are MilNet hosts prior to the MilNet split, does seem to imply this is, rather than a map of 'The Internet', a map of the TCP/IP testing network within ARPANET. Since IntCirca85 comes from a period where the Cern based Internet was growing, I feel that this would be better titled 'The ARPANet based Internet'. Noel, can you tell us where these maps came from, and if there are full descriptions of what they are actualy showing, or cites to go with them?
I don't think we need two network maps, since a second one adds nothing to the article. We need a few pictures on other topics to show. Network equipment used, early web pages and so on. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 03:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
At first, this statement by you irritated me (since it basically implies that I'm either a) incompetent, or b) mendacious), but on reflection I'm glad you made it, because it's a perfect example of the kind of egregious and ridiculous behaviour you engage in. It will therefore be a great education to everyone reading this, as a perfect example what we have to deal with from you.
First, I never said anything like [I] don't know what they are. (I know perfectly well what they show.) What I said was I don't know which meetings I was at that I got them at, a totally different thing. You seem (perenially) to mis-read or mis-interpret even the simplest declaratory English sentences.
Second, as to what they actually are (and show), if you would bother to do the slightest bit of investigation, you could verify that description I gave of them is correct. (For the '85 one, try reading, say, RFC 900, and read the list of assigned IP class A and B network numbers, which you can cross-check with the map.)
Third, since you seem unwilling to accept them (since I can't provide the exact date/place I got them - what's next, wanting my lunch menu and the name of the waitress for the days I received them?), let me point you at the Proceedings (note: 13MB pdf file) of the Second meeting of the Internet Engineering Task Force, held at the Ballistics Research Laboratory on 8-9 April, 1986, where you will find the very map I labelled "circa 1985" reproduced on page 118, part of a presentation entitled (humourously) "The Internet Through the Ages", by Bob Hinden. (Which also helps to verify my description of what it shows.)
Fourth, when you say it's not really apropriate for you to make any interpretation as to what they, that's equally untrue. See, in a legal proceeding, I would be characterized as an expert witness on this matter. If you look at the list of attendees given on page 9 of those Proceedings, you will find me listed. (This meeting may have been the place my copy came from: I still have my hardcopy of the Proceedings, but the attached presentations are no longer with it.) In other words, I was at the table when Bob gave that presentation.
A more perfect illustration of your willingness to use any excuse, no matter how flimsy or ridiculous, to accept any information that contradicts your erroneous POV would be hard to arrange. When I said I personally scanned them in from original hardcopies that are in my files (emphasis added), most people would find that good enough. But apparently not you.
Now that we've (hopefully) settled that the map is real, etc, can we get back to discussing what the structure of the article ought to be? Noel (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
First, they didn't c[o]me from ARPANET (sic). They are hard copies. Someone personally gave them to me, several decades ago. How many times do I have to repeat this? (This ARPANET fixation of yours is really irritating. Please cease with it. Or are you just a troll? I'm starting to wonder.) I could explain to you why your proposed caption was inaccurate, but I am certain it would be a complete waste of my time, because you'd just come up with some other bullshit reply.
So, instead, whose word (if any, since you seem determined not to accept anything that conflicts with your fixed POV) will you take that they are correctly captioned? Maybe the current chair of the Internet Engineering Task Force, Brian Carpenter? He's a European (and ex-CERN to boot). If he's not good enough, how about Vint Cerf himself? This is not sarcasm - I know them both, and would gladly ask them if it will stop you from yammering about this.
And why the devil do we need to allow the user to make their own conclusion if they wish that they show an 'early Internet', when one of them comes from a 1986 presentation whose label is The Internet Through the Ages - a fact which anyone can verify by looking at the offical repository of the Proceedings of the Internet's engineering body? Noel (talk) 21:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
This has gone on a little too long, so let's try to settle this with a poll over the prefered article. (edited)
"Was ARPANET the sole significant contributor of culure and methods of use for the Internet as we know it today?"
Vote as '''yes''', or '''no''' Give full reasons for the choice. This is not to decide which version wins, it is to determine what the page should reflect and how. You may suggest changes or a rewrite. Please note, question is not "Was ARPANET the sole significant contributor of Technologies used for the Internet as we know it today.", which concensusus says is anwsered by Yes.
-- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 19:20, 16 September 2005 (UTC) edited 09:40, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Once again, your contentions are factually incorrect. Your statement:
is incorrect, because as the article mentions (and as I keep pointing out to you, although you seem to keep ignoring it - at least, I cannot offer any other explanation as to why you keep making inaccurate statements about it), the early CYCLADES network provided some important ideas.
Your principal statement:
is equally misguided. Nobody is trying to say that it was the sole "significant contributor". However, it was the most important - as the ISOC quote you yourself used on me indicates:
I couldn't have said it better myself. Noel (talk) 04:56, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Copied from above.
'Technical History' means 'A history that goes into technical details and methods'. This is not suitable for the article, as a Technical History would be over a managable length. The proper method is to link to articles on the specific technologies, and keep mention of technical details to as brief as they can be kept while the organisational, population and cultural issues will still make sence. Since readability is king, this is flexable to the needs of making a readable article. However, splitting technical details off to another seperate timeline in the article would defeat the point, and also make the article less readable. To get a whole picture, the reader would have to read a bit of the cultural history, then refer over to the technical history, then back to the culutural history. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 18:39, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
As I've been thinking about this, I've had an idea.
There were literally hundreds of computer networks around the world that the Internet "ate" as it grew. A lot of people know of the ones in their home country, but most industrial countries had them, as did many specialist fields. Many (most?) are now largely forgotten. I know of some of them, because I ran across them in my decades as a professional in the field, but I expect that even I know of only a fraction.
Here are some of the ones I recall: VNET and BITNET (both worldwide network using IBM protocols); SPAN (an international network for astronomers, used DECnet protocols IIRC); MERIT, in Michigan (a large network which used a home-grown protocol suite; its personnel later went on to man the T1 phase II NSFNet - phase I having been the Fuzzball-based 56K network); HEPnet (the high energy network, using DECnet protocols, IIRC; CERN was on that, I think); JANET (a large UK X.25 based network); ESnet (a network run by reseach organizations working for the US DoE; I think it ran DECnet, IIRC); JUNET (a Japanese network, don't know much about it - WIDE was the IP portion of it); MFEnet (a network in the US used by magnetic fusion people, started in '76, again DECnet IIRC); EARN (European academic/research network, don't remember much about it); SURFNET (in the Netherlands - they were a leading light in the formation RIPE, IIRC - another thing that ought to be covered); NSN (a NASA network, using ACTS satellite links);
There are some international efforts I recall, but don't know their names: I know New Zealand had a large DECnet network among universitites/research institions, and I assume Australia had some sort of networks too. I've heard of academic networks in Poland and the USSR, both of which are rumoured to have played roles in the political troubles there (the Polish one in Jaruzelski's crackdown, the Russian one in the KGB/Communist attempted coup), but I don't know any details.
And looking through some of my huge stash of archaic documents, here are some more: BCnet, ARnet, Onet, RISQ, NSTN (a group of 5 Canadian regional research/educational networks; not sure what protocols they used); WIN (an X.25 network of educational institutions within Germany); NORDUnet (Scandanavia, ran X.25); EASInet (some sort of European network, forget what they did); DFN (Germany, ditto); SWITCH (Switzerland); GARR (Italy); EUnet (some sort of European educational and/or research network); DEnet (Denmark), FUNET (Finland) SURIS (Iceland), UNINETT (Norway), SUNET (Sweden) (all components of NORDUnet); TISN (a Japanese research network that ran DECnet); NACSIS (a Japanese educational X.25 network)
And I also notice, looking through this list, that I see primarily research/academic networks - commercial networks are basically not represented at all. And of course there are North American and Western Europe with plenty of names, but what of the rest of the world? And did Europe, etc have BBS's, etc and that sort of culture?
So, here's the point: there was an entire world of computer networks other there, AKAIK all of them later folded into the Internet. If we really want to cover the growth of computer networking as a social/etc phenonenon, it's hard to see how to cover all this work in the same article as the history of the Internet itself.
It would seem to me that there's a place here for an article on the growth of computer networking as a social/etc phenonenon, with a title of something like History of computer networking or History of computer networks or something. It would seem to me that the obvious way to organize it would be in several sections:
with listings for each network, and a few words about them (plus links to articles, when they exist), so that someone who wanted to read about the scope of computer networks before the Internet had one place to go to get a well-organized overview of 'the rest of computer networking'. (Such an article would, of course, be linked to from HotI.)
I think it would only make sense to mention in the "History of the Internet" article only those networks whose inclusion had an impact on the Internet; e.g. Usenet (netnews), AOL (chat rooms and IM; although AOL wasn't the inventor of either, I think it was AOL who really got them to take off), etc. Most of the networks I wrote of above were folded into the network with hardly a ripple on the Internet as a whole - who can point to an effect from MERIT, or JANET, or JUNET?
And the internationalization of the Internet should be covered in a more organized way - there's some attention paid to Europe at the momen, but I don't think anything's said about the Pacific Rim, Asia, etc. Noel (talk) 16:22, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
My version of the article had almost exactly the same factual content as your version.
As to NSFNet, Quote from p51 of Tanenbaum's Computer Networks, "The Software technology was different however: the fuzzballs spoke TCP/IP right from the start, making it th first TCP/IP WAN.", then on p52 "Sometime in the mid-1980s, people began viewing the collection of networks as an internet, and later as the Internet, although there was no official dedication with some politician breaking a bottle of champaign over a fuzzball." Now, it might be that he is mistaken in that claim, but it does seem prudent to assume he is correct. If people disagree over this, then it becomes a point of view issue, and should be balenced and report both.
Competing technologies does not equate to competing Networks. The networks, and the people who ran them co-operated to create the Internet. This was not like the space race.
Now, I would like to insist that you do list those errors you found, so that they may be corrected. It goes against the wiki spirit to say 'there are errors!' but not identify them so they can be fixed. Nor is it a reason to throw out a version of an article if it contains easy to fix errors but is otherwise fundamentaly sound.
If you can not provide a suitable list of reasons why the rewrite version [1] is an unsound article, then we must conclude the dispute. If you can provide the problems, then we can start fixing them.
'We should write a seperate technical history' is not a problem with the article itself, as it can be simply solved by creating a second article containing a detailed technical history of TCP/IP. I consider that discusion closed.
To sum up, there has been a demonstrated concensus in support of the article. The article was reviewed and found to be readable, and properly structured. If there are factual problems with the article, then they should be raised here, and fixed. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 10:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
In the course of searching for material on SATNET, I ran across a very well done proto-paper on the international connections to the development of the idea of internetworking (which I have mentioned here, well before the recent imbroglio, see e.g. Talk:History of the Internet/archive1#Creation Myths - Europeans did have a very important impact on the early days of the Internet (i.e. prior to 1980)). The paper is:
available here, among other locations.
This proto-paper provides a large amount of detail about the very early days, in the early 70's. It does rely heavily on recent communication with the people involved, which is a source which can have its problems (especially this long after the fact). The use of multiple contact points (as in this paper) diminishes the chance of problems, of course, but original contemporary documention is still the gold standard. (E.g. I recently contacted one of the people cited in this paper on another matter, and their recollections contained a number of errors which original documentation pointed out.)
Although I would differ with the author on a few minor points of emphasis and interpretation (and there are also a few very minor errors, which I have notified them about), I am broadly in agreement with the thrust of this paper, and recommend it as a resource. Noel (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Um... I'm confused. So you're agreeing that the article outright states that UK internet roll out was dependant on using the IPSS X.25 infrastructure, and that X.25 was prefered over the older network technologies. But X.25 is still unimportant and the rewrite unaceptable because of it? I think now you're flat refusing to accept that X.25 was used as a foundation technology in spreading the early internet.
Noel, can you also please stop editing my comments. If I want to indent, I will, but I was not replying solely to you. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 15:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Found some information about internet growth into Africa circa 1991. Yet again, this seems predicated on the X.25 IPSS Network for the internal infrastructure. And also significant use of UUCP for intermitantly connected machines, and direct dialing into overseas networks over the international phonelines. Global Networks for Africa -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 16:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
More on IPSS. Now that I know what to look for, it seems that the IPSS X.25 servide acted as the initial worldwide infrastructure that turned into the Internet.
Seems that X.25 turns out to be very important indeed. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 16:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
In the course of what turned out to be an extended email discussion with Yakov Rekhter, about the exact importance of the phase-II NSFNET (i.e. the T1 version) in the evolution of the Internet, he made useful point about the evolution of the routing (i.e. path selection, not packet forwarding), the importance of which hadn't really struck me before.
He pointed out that work associated with the T1 NSFNET produced a routing system for the Internet as a whole which was much more suitable to a network in which the overall connectivity model was mesh-oriented, as opposed to the hub-and-spoke model used by the Internet when the ARPANET was the core long-haul backbone in it.
Here's the conclusion of the discussion:
The BGP, developed by Yakov and others to replace the previous EGP-2 has much greater capabilities, and really was a key step in the development (as big as Van Jacobsen's TCP congestion control stuff). Noel (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm fed up with the petty bickering, deadlock and personal attacks. Noel, you win, edit the page as you wish. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 01:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Is there still a dispute? I suppose the easiest way to find out is to unprotect and then sit back and watch. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 19:20, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Oddly the page is still stuck on a version we know to have poor readability, be inacurate and omit significant sections of the history. Getting very tempted to return to editing the page. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 08:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay. The page seems abandoned on this old version. I'm withdrawing my retreat from editing, since we really need to update to remove the errors and readability problems on this page. (We definatly don't need that lengthy OSI rant back in the page!) Noel, I'll be tagging this with the 'two versions'. Before making any revert or rewrite, list a *full* list of your complaints with the page, how you wish to fix them, and full cites to support on this talk page, and give it at least a full day for a responce.
Incidently, I've also uncovered that the early TCP/IP development is substantuialy predicated on the Xerox Parc work on Xerox Network Services and PARC Universal Packet (Soon to be merged since they are escentialy the same article). Most specificaly in the use of the Routing Information Protocol. This really is a melting pot development, not a 'space race' style compertition. That said, not sure if its significant enough to warrent a mention. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 17:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
If you must work on this page, I suggest you use the procedure I outlined in the section above (which see for more details): suggest a particular change you want to make, and we'll discuss it, and then insert it. Noel (talk) 11:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I've restored protection. Evidently the dispute is still ongoing. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
At User:Essjay's suggestion, I have filed a RfM. See WP:RfM#Pending. Noel (talk) 13:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for being a newcomer here, I have seen the edits popping all over this article but never paid close attention to it for a long time.
I just can't get a grip about what the dispute here is all about. Could you line up the controversial issues, one by one, so we could at least get some consensus on a few of them? Nixdorf 18:35, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, right now, your guess is as good as mine. I'm not entirely sure what Noel still finds objectionable which I havent adressed. His complaints above were, to sum up,
I am not sure where Noel's claim of 'original research' is, since these were all based on referenced research. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 19:43, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
OK so I take this to mean that the core of this dispute is what to give credit to as being the true origin of the Internet: the ARPANET or NSFNet.
The way we would resolve this if we tried to work as historians would be to start with citing your sources with complete references to source texts, then, indicate which are primary sources, i.e. documents that were produced at the time of the actual events or very close in time and which are secondary sources, which includes any books, papers or whatever written post-1970 or so.
The common critical method in history is not to rely on people because of their merit (i.e. "this person was involved in this thing in that year and s/he claims...") but first and foremost on primary sources, i.e. that person should provide some document from the time that states it is really true. A persons memory easily fills in the blanks with anecdotes and interpolated information.
Agreed? If so, then bring in the sources. Nixdorf 18:00, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
In intrests of keeping this co-ordinated, please see my responces on
Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Jnc_and_Barberio#Disputes --
John R. Barberio
talk,
contribs 19:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
List here all primary sources you can find relating to the history of the Internet, arranged in date order.
Unfortunatly, Mediation stalled. The mediator has suggested that we return to editing the page, and ensure to use full cites.
Unless anyone has objections, I'm going to edit the page a lot to get it to a standard where we can put it on the Featured Article path. I'll try to keep any new information added since mediation started. And we'll be restoring some info that was reverted during the mediation process.
Things that I would like to happen, and urge people to research :
I'd love to see this article be a Main Page featured article some day. -- Barberio 12:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
For my own reference, and to use as a cite, The Evolution of Packet Switching, paper from 1978 detailing the networks of the time. Appears to authoritivly dismiss 'X.25 developed from TELENET'. -- Barberio 22:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
As the mediator, I'd like to just say that the easiest way out of such disputes is to use citations as much as possible, and would therefore recommend using the Wikipedia:Footnotes structure within this article as much as possible (which is also the only way that you'll be able to make this article featured, if you'd like it to be). It's also particularly important to actually read the citations that another person gives you if you're arguing with them, otherwise you won't get anywhere.
For the record, the mediation can be found here. I link this only because many good points were raised and a lot of citations were given, and so will hopefully cut down a little on redundancy in these discussions.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
You are the one who showed up at an article that had been basically static for months (if not years), and started making extremely aggressive edits to have it follow your original research POV.
I changed the article to have separate "technical" and "usage" threads because I thought (see comments above from User:Sdedeo 03:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC), and you 12:36, 6 September 2005, at #Peer review results) that that was something you thought would be an improvement; it also seemed to me (see my comments above) that it would make it easier to straighten this issue of "what influenced what" out if we separate the technical and usage threads.
However, I see that you have seen fit to completely discard the hours of work I put into that (keeping much of your text, moving other text to articles where it seemed more appropriate, etc), and simply reverted to your preferred version. (In this light, the irony of your comments about "Unanamous editing is not a good thing" is fairly stunning.)
I never consented to your massive rewrite (I don't have time to monitor every page on a daily basis, I've been busy with material elsewhere, as well as duties such as maintaining RfD). You and one other editor (Sdedeo) is not "consensus" - I don't concur, and I'll bet CoolCaesar (when he has time to drop in) won't agree either.
Since you don't like my version, and I don't like yours, we should simply revert to the last version before this dispute started (edit by User:Nixdorf on 21:33, 25 August 2005), and discuss the matter before making any changes at all to the prior content. Noel (talk) 17:15, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me point out to you that the notice box at the head of this page (the same one that was there when I made the edit)says only Please read this talk page discussion before making substantial changes. So your claim that it said I needed to discuss on the talk page before making substantial changes is incorrect. As should be completely obvious from that fact that I posted a lengthy note at 02:00, 15 September 2005, shortly before I did the edit to the article, I had read the talk page. Noel (talk) 18:48, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I've reverted to Squeakbox's version of September 4 and protected. Why doesn't everybody calm down and work this out? I know nothing of the subject, so I shall retreat. Notify me if you've worked it out and I'll unprotect. john k 18:27, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, I figure the first thing is to work out what structure the article should have. It seems to me that there are several possibilities:
Did I miss any reasonable ones? I don't have any particular preference among these, any would be fine with me, but I think readers might find #1 a bit confusing. Noel (talk) 18:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of moving this section to the bottom so that recent arrivals will see it. Noel (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
At the moment, we only have two pictures for the article. Both are escentialy showing early network maps, but are not really giving any tangiable content to the article. Nor do we have any information from cited sources as to what these maps are off. I'm still not sure of the interpretation of these as Internet maps. We've no texts to go with them to explain what they mean, or even what they are mapping. IntFeb82's date and content, showing what I assume are MilNet hosts prior to the MilNet split, does seem to imply this is, rather than a map of 'The Internet', a map of the TCP/IP testing network within ARPANET. Since IntCirca85 comes from a period where the Cern based Internet was growing, I feel that this would be better titled 'The ARPANet based Internet'. Noel, can you tell us where these maps came from, and if there are full descriptions of what they are actualy showing, or cites to go with them?
I don't think we need two network maps, since a second one adds nothing to the article. We need a few pictures on other topics to show. Network equipment used, early web pages and so on. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 03:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
At first, this statement by you irritated me (since it basically implies that I'm either a) incompetent, or b) mendacious), but on reflection I'm glad you made it, because it's a perfect example of the kind of egregious and ridiculous behaviour you engage in. It will therefore be a great education to everyone reading this, as a perfect example what we have to deal with from you.
First, I never said anything like [I] don't know what they are. (I know perfectly well what they show.) What I said was I don't know which meetings I was at that I got them at, a totally different thing. You seem (perenially) to mis-read or mis-interpret even the simplest declaratory English sentences.
Second, as to what they actually are (and show), if you would bother to do the slightest bit of investigation, you could verify that description I gave of them is correct. (For the '85 one, try reading, say, RFC 900, and read the list of assigned IP class A and B network numbers, which you can cross-check with the map.)
Third, since you seem unwilling to accept them (since I can't provide the exact date/place I got them - what's next, wanting my lunch menu and the name of the waitress for the days I received them?), let me point you at the Proceedings (note: 13MB pdf file) of the Second meeting of the Internet Engineering Task Force, held at the Ballistics Research Laboratory on 8-9 April, 1986, where you will find the very map I labelled "circa 1985" reproduced on page 118, part of a presentation entitled (humourously) "The Internet Through the Ages", by Bob Hinden. (Which also helps to verify my description of what it shows.)
Fourth, when you say it's not really apropriate for you to make any interpretation as to what they, that's equally untrue. See, in a legal proceeding, I would be characterized as an expert witness on this matter. If you look at the list of attendees given on page 9 of those Proceedings, you will find me listed. (This meeting may have been the place my copy came from: I still have my hardcopy of the Proceedings, but the attached presentations are no longer with it.) In other words, I was at the table when Bob gave that presentation.
A more perfect illustration of your willingness to use any excuse, no matter how flimsy or ridiculous, to accept any information that contradicts your erroneous POV would be hard to arrange. When I said I personally scanned them in from original hardcopies that are in my files (emphasis added), most people would find that good enough. But apparently not you.
Now that we've (hopefully) settled that the map is real, etc, can we get back to discussing what the structure of the article ought to be? Noel (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
First, they didn't c[o]me from ARPANET (sic). They are hard copies. Someone personally gave them to me, several decades ago. How many times do I have to repeat this? (This ARPANET fixation of yours is really irritating. Please cease with it. Or are you just a troll? I'm starting to wonder.) I could explain to you why your proposed caption was inaccurate, but I am certain it would be a complete waste of my time, because you'd just come up with some other bullshit reply.
So, instead, whose word (if any, since you seem determined not to accept anything that conflicts with your fixed POV) will you take that they are correctly captioned? Maybe the current chair of the Internet Engineering Task Force, Brian Carpenter? He's a European (and ex-CERN to boot). If he's not good enough, how about Vint Cerf himself? This is not sarcasm - I know them both, and would gladly ask them if it will stop you from yammering about this.
And why the devil do we need to allow the user to make their own conclusion if they wish that they show an 'early Internet', when one of them comes from a 1986 presentation whose label is The Internet Through the Ages - a fact which anyone can verify by looking at the offical repository of the Proceedings of the Internet's engineering body? Noel (talk) 21:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
This has gone on a little too long, so let's try to settle this with a poll over the prefered article. (edited)
"Was ARPANET the sole significant contributor of culure and methods of use for the Internet as we know it today?"
Vote as '''yes''', or '''no''' Give full reasons for the choice. This is not to decide which version wins, it is to determine what the page should reflect and how. You may suggest changes or a rewrite. Please note, question is not "Was ARPANET the sole significant contributor of Technologies used for the Internet as we know it today.", which concensusus says is anwsered by Yes.
-- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 19:20, 16 September 2005 (UTC) edited 09:40, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Once again, your contentions are factually incorrect. Your statement:
is incorrect, because as the article mentions (and as I keep pointing out to you, although you seem to keep ignoring it - at least, I cannot offer any other explanation as to why you keep making inaccurate statements about it), the early CYCLADES network provided some important ideas.
Your principal statement:
is equally misguided. Nobody is trying to say that it was the sole "significant contributor". However, it was the most important - as the ISOC quote you yourself used on me indicates:
I couldn't have said it better myself. Noel (talk) 04:56, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Copied from above.
'Technical History' means 'A history that goes into technical details and methods'. This is not suitable for the article, as a Technical History would be over a managable length. The proper method is to link to articles on the specific technologies, and keep mention of technical details to as brief as they can be kept while the organisational, population and cultural issues will still make sence. Since readability is king, this is flexable to the needs of making a readable article. However, splitting technical details off to another seperate timeline in the article would defeat the point, and also make the article less readable. To get a whole picture, the reader would have to read a bit of the cultural history, then refer over to the technical history, then back to the culutural history. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 18:39, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
As I've been thinking about this, I've had an idea.
There were literally hundreds of computer networks around the world that the Internet "ate" as it grew. A lot of people know of the ones in their home country, but most industrial countries had them, as did many specialist fields. Many (most?) are now largely forgotten. I know of some of them, because I ran across them in my decades as a professional in the field, but I expect that even I know of only a fraction.
Here are some of the ones I recall: VNET and BITNET (both worldwide network using IBM protocols); SPAN (an international network for astronomers, used DECnet protocols IIRC); MERIT, in Michigan (a large network which used a home-grown protocol suite; its personnel later went on to man the T1 phase II NSFNet - phase I having been the Fuzzball-based 56K network); HEPnet (the high energy network, using DECnet protocols, IIRC; CERN was on that, I think); JANET (a large UK X.25 based network); ESnet (a network run by reseach organizations working for the US DoE; I think it ran DECnet, IIRC); JUNET (a Japanese network, don't know much about it - WIDE was the IP portion of it); MFEnet (a network in the US used by magnetic fusion people, started in '76, again DECnet IIRC); EARN (European academic/research network, don't remember much about it); SURFNET (in the Netherlands - they were a leading light in the formation RIPE, IIRC - another thing that ought to be covered); NSN (a NASA network, using ACTS satellite links);
There are some international efforts I recall, but don't know their names: I know New Zealand had a large DECnet network among universitites/research institions, and I assume Australia had some sort of networks too. I've heard of academic networks in Poland and the USSR, both of which are rumoured to have played roles in the political troubles there (the Polish one in Jaruzelski's crackdown, the Russian one in the KGB/Communist attempted coup), but I don't know any details.
And looking through some of my huge stash of archaic documents, here are some more: BCnet, ARnet, Onet, RISQ, NSTN (a group of 5 Canadian regional research/educational networks; not sure what protocols they used); WIN (an X.25 network of educational institutions within Germany); NORDUnet (Scandanavia, ran X.25); EASInet (some sort of European network, forget what they did); DFN (Germany, ditto); SWITCH (Switzerland); GARR (Italy); EUnet (some sort of European educational and/or research network); DEnet (Denmark), FUNET (Finland) SURIS (Iceland), UNINETT (Norway), SUNET (Sweden) (all components of NORDUnet); TISN (a Japanese research network that ran DECnet); NACSIS (a Japanese educational X.25 network)
And I also notice, looking through this list, that I see primarily research/academic networks - commercial networks are basically not represented at all. And of course there are North American and Western Europe with plenty of names, but what of the rest of the world? And did Europe, etc have BBS's, etc and that sort of culture?
So, here's the point: there was an entire world of computer networks other there, AKAIK all of them later folded into the Internet. If we really want to cover the growth of computer networking as a social/etc phenonenon, it's hard to see how to cover all this work in the same article as the history of the Internet itself.
It would seem to me that there's a place here for an article on the growth of computer networking as a social/etc phenonenon, with a title of something like History of computer networking or History of computer networks or something. It would seem to me that the obvious way to organize it would be in several sections:
with listings for each network, and a few words about them (plus links to articles, when they exist), so that someone who wanted to read about the scope of computer networks before the Internet had one place to go to get a well-organized overview of 'the rest of computer networking'. (Such an article would, of course, be linked to from HotI.)
I think it would only make sense to mention in the "History of the Internet" article only those networks whose inclusion had an impact on the Internet; e.g. Usenet (netnews), AOL (chat rooms and IM; although AOL wasn't the inventor of either, I think it was AOL who really got them to take off), etc. Most of the networks I wrote of above were folded into the network with hardly a ripple on the Internet as a whole - who can point to an effect from MERIT, or JANET, or JUNET?
And the internationalization of the Internet should be covered in a more organized way - there's some attention paid to Europe at the momen, but I don't think anything's said about the Pacific Rim, Asia, etc. Noel (talk) 16:22, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
My version of the article had almost exactly the same factual content as your version.
As to NSFNet, Quote from p51 of Tanenbaum's Computer Networks, "The Software technology was different however: the fuzzballs spoke TCP/IP right from the start, making it th first TCP/IP WAN.", then on p52 "Sometime in the mid-1980s, people began viewing the collection of networks as an internet, and later as the Internet, although there was no official dedication with some politician breaking a bottle of champaign over a fuzzball." Now, it might be that he is mistaken in that claim, but it does seem prudent to assume he is correct. If people disagree over this, then it becomes a point of view issue, and should be balenced and report both.
Competing technologies does not equate to competing Networks. The networks, and the people who ran them co-operated to create the Internet. This was not like the space race.
Now, I would like to insist that you do list those errors you found, so that they may be corrected. It goes against the wiki spirit to say 'there are errors!' but not identify them so they can be fixed. Nor is it a reason to throw out a version of an article if it contains easy to fix errors but is otherwise fundamentaly sound.
If you can not provide a suitable list of reasons why the rewrite version [1] is an unsound article, then we must conclude the dispute. If you can provide the problems, then we can start fixing them.
'We should write a seperate technical history' is not a problem with the article itself, as it can be simply solved by creating a second article containing a detailed technical history of TCP/IP. I consider that discusion closed.
To sum up, there has been a demonstrated concensus in support of the article. The article was reviewed and found to be readable, and properly structured. If there are factual problems with the article, then they should be raised here, and fixed. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 10:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
In the course of searching for material on SATNET, I ran across a very well done proto-paper on the international connections to the development of the idea of internetworking (which I have mentioned here, well before the recent imbroglio, see e.g. Talk:History of the Internet/archive1#Creation Myths - Europeans did have a very important impact on the early days of the Internet (i.e. prior to 1980)). The paper is:
available here, among other locations.
This proto-paper provides a large amount of detail about the very early days, in the early 70's. It does rely heavily on recent communication with the people involved, which is a source which can have its problems (especially this long after the fact). The use of multiple contact points (as in this paper) diminishes the chance of problems, of course, but original contemporary documention is still the gold standard. (E.g. I recently contacted one of the people cited in this paper on another matter, and their recollections contained a number of errors which original documentation pointed out.)
Although I would differ with the author on a few minor points of emphasis and interpretation (and there are also a few very minor errors, which I have notified them about), I am broadly in agreement with the thrust of this paper, and recommend it as a resource. Noel (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Um... I'm confused. So you're agreeing that the article outright states that UK internet roll out was dependant on using the IPSS X.25 infrastructure, and that X.25 was prefered over the older network technologies. But X.25 is still unimportant and the rewrite unaceptable because of it? I think now you're flat refusing to accept that X.25 was used as a foundation technology in spreading the early internet.
Noel, can you also please stop editing my comments. If I want to indent, I will, but I was not replying solely to you. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 15:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Found some information about internet growth into Africa circa 1991. Yet again, this seems predicated on the X.25 IPSS Network for the internal infrastructure. And also significant use of UUCP for intermitantly connected machines, and direct dialing into overseas networks over the international phonelines. Global Networks for Africa -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 16:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
More on IPSS. Now that I know what to look for, it seems that the IPSS X.25 servide acted as the initial worldwide infrastructure that turned into the Internet.
Seems that X.25 turns out to be very important indeed. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 16:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
In the course of what turned out to be an extended email discussion with Yakov Rekhter, about the exact importance of the phase-II NSFNET (i.e. the T1 version) in the evolution of the Internet, he made useful point about the evolution of the routing (i.e. path selection, not packet forwarding), the importance of which hadn't really struck me before.
He pointed out that work associated with the T1 NSFNET produced a routing system for the Internet as a whole which was much more suitable to a network in which the overall connectivity model was mesh-oriented, as opposed to the hub-and-spoke model used by the Internet when the ARPANET was the core long-haul backbone in it.
Here's the conclusion of the discussion:
The BGP, developed by Yakov and others to replace the previous EGP-2 has much greater capabilities, and really was a key step in the development (as big as Van Jacobsen's TCP congestion control stuff). Noel (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm fed up with the petty bickering, deadlock and personal attacks. Noel, you win, edit the page as you wish. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 01:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Is there still a dispute? I suppose the easiest way to find out is to unprotect and then sit back and watch. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 19:20, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Oddly the page is still stuck on a version we know to have poor readability, be inacurate and omit significant sections of the history. Getting very tempted to return to editing the page. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 08:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay. The page seems abandoned on this old version. I'm withdrawing my retreat from editing, since we really need to update to remove the errors and readability problems on this page. (We definatly don't need that lengthy OSI rant back in the page!) Noel, I'll be tagging this with the 'two versions'. Before making any revert or rewrite, list a *full* list of your complaints with the page, how you wish to fix them, and full cites to support on this talk page, and give it at least a full day for a responce.
Incidently, I've also uncovered that the early TCP/IP development is substantuialy predicated on the Xerox Parc work on Xerox Network Services and PARC Universal Packet (Soon to be merged since they are escentialy the same article). Most specificaly in the use of the Routing Information Protocol. This really is a melting pot development, not a 'space race' style compertition. That said, not sure if its significant enough to warrent a mention. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 17:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
If you must work on this page, I suggest you use the procedure I outlined in the section above (which see for more details): suggest a particular change you want to make, and we'll discuss it, and then insert it. Noel (talk) 11:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I've restored protection. Evidently the dispute is still ongoing. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
At User:Essjay's suggestion, I have filed a RfM. See WP:RfM#Pending. Noel (talk) 13:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for being a newcomer here, I have seen the edits popping all over this article but never paid close attention to it for a long time.
I just can't get a grip about what the dispute here is all about. Could you line up the controversial issues, one by one, so we could at least get some consensus on a few of them? Nixdorf 18:35, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, right now, your guess is as good as mine. I'm not entirely sure what Noel still finds objectionable which I havent adressed. His complaints above were, to sum up,
I am not sure where Noel's claim of 'original research' is, since these were all based on referenced research. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 19:43, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
OK so I take this to mean that the core of this dispute is what to give credit to as being the true origin of the Internet: the ARPANET or NSFNet.
The way we would resolve this if we tried to work as historians would be to start with citing your sources with complete references to source texts, then, indicate which are primary sources, i.e. documents that were produced at the time of the actual events or very close in time and which are secondary sources, which includes any books, papers or whatever written post-1970 or so.
The common critical method in history is not to rely on people because of their merit (i.e. "this person was involved in this thing in that year and s/he claims...") but first and foremost on primary sources, i.e. that person should provide some document from the time that states it is really true. A persons memory easily fills in the blanks with anecdotes and interpolated information.
Agreed? If so, then bring in the sources. Nixdorf 18:00, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
In intrests of keeping this co-ordinated, please see my responces on
Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Jnc_and_Barberio#Disputes --
John R. Barberio
talk,
contribs 19:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
List here all primary sources you can find relating to the history of the Internet, arranged in date order.
Unfortunatly, Mediation stalled. The mediator has suggested that we return to editing the page, and ensure to use full cites.
Unless anyone has objections, I'm going to edit the page a lot to get it to a standard where we can put it on the Featured Article path. I'll try to keep any new information added since mediation started. And we'll be restoring some info that was reverted during the mediation process.
Things that I would like to happen, and urge people to research :
I'd love to see this article be a Main Page featured article some day. -- Barberio 12:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
For my own reference, and to use as a cite, The Evolution of Packet Switching, paper from 1978 detailing the networks of the time. Appears to authoritivly dismiss 'X.25 developed from TELENET'. -- Barberio 22:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
As the mediator, I'd like to just say that the easiest way out of such disputes is to use citations as much as possible, and would therefore recommend using the Wikipedia:Footnotes structure within this article as much as possible (which is also the only way that you'll be able to make this article featured, if you'd like it to be). It's also particularly important to actually read the citations that another person gives you if you're arguing with them, otherwise you won't get anywhere.
For the record, the mediation can be found here. I link this only because many good points were raised and a lot of citations were given, and so will hopefully cut down a little on redundancy in these discussions.