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![]() | On 30 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Timeline of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict to History of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Where are the previous discussions from this page? -- MZMcBride 01:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
All three of these articles seem to discuss the same things in varying degrees of detail. Let's merge all three of them under the name of "Arab-Israeli conflict." -- GHcool 18:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind. See talk page on Arab-Israeli conflict. -- GHcool 03:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think Operation Summer Rains should be added to the history or is it just a part of the al-Aqsa Intifada? -- GHcool 03:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I am changing the following from the Mandate section:
The Jewish leadership (Yishuv) "adopted a policy of restraint (havlaga) and static defense in response to Arab attacks."[3]
to read:
Some of Jewish leadership (Yishuv) "adopted a policy of restraint (havlaga) and static defense in response to Arab attacks."[3] However, during this same period, the Irgun, led attacks on the Arab population in which more than 250 Arabs were killed.
Also, I've changed the following from the 1948 section:
The Arabs had rejected the plan while the Jews had accepted it. Arab militias had begun campaigns to control territory inside and outside the designated borders, and an open war between the two populations emerged.
to read:
By March of 1948 however, the US was actively seeking a UN approved trusteeship rather than immediate partition. The Jewish leadership rejected this. By now, both Jewish and Arab militias had begun campaigns to control territory inside and outside the designated borders, and an open war between the two populations emerged.
EllenS 02:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
EllenS 02:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sticking a POV template on this article until further notice. There's quite a bit of POV that seems to have crept into some sections. Gatoclass 16:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh heck, I just spent 20 minutes explaining the reasons and this blasted website ate it. I really can't be bothered detailing all the problems again. But basically, the Arabs are getting the blame in section after section. This is a very one sided account of the conflict. Gatoclass 07:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's try again.
1. Six day war. All the belligerent actions of the Arabs are recorded, but not those by the Israelis, such as their reprisal raids on Syria and Jordan or their brinkmanship on the Syrian border. Also, the faulty soviet intelligence given to the Egyptians is not mentioned. This has the effect of placing all the blame for the war on the Arabs. It's a one sided account.
2. Yom Kippur war. All it tells us is that the Arabs mounted a suprise attack on Israel. Fails to mention that they were trying to recapture their own territory held by Israel in violation of 242 and after Sadat's land-for-peace offers were rebuffed. So again, the Arabs are painted as going to war for no reason at all.
3. First intifada. What caused it? I quote: "the failure of the PLO to achieve any kind of meaningful diplomatic solution to the Palestinian issue." The Israelis, apparently, bear no responsibility at all for the lack of progress. Beginning to see a pattern here?
6. Oslo peace process. What went wrong? Well apparently the problem was that it was met by "a wave of violence" from Palestinian fanatics. Actually, violence declined greatly in the Oslo years, so this is not even correct. But why doesn't Netanyahu's and Barak's expansion of the settlements get a mention?
7. Second intifada. A list of all the violent things Palestinians did. That's about it for this section. Totally one sided yet again.
8. Arab peace initiative. Why couldn't Israel accept? Because the Palestinians won't end terrorism. And look! Saudi Arabia funds Hamas, proving once more that Arabs can't be trusted.
And so on... Gatoclass 07:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Gato, the article on the yom-kippour war just states the attacker and the defender. I believe you make a good fuss out of nothing much.
3. First intifada. What caused it? I quote: "the failure of the PLO to achieve any kind of meaningful diplomatic solution to the Palestinian issue." The Israelis, apparently, bear no responsibility at all for the lack of progress. Beginning to see a pattern here?
Well either you misread or you just want to prove your point since it is written:
The First Intifada, 1987-1993, began as an uprising [...] against the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip after the failure of the PLO to achieve any kind of meaningful diplomatic solution to the Palestinian issue.
As I see it the First Intifada was caused by the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank after the failure of a diplomatic sln of the Palestinian issue.
7. Second intifada. A list of all the violent things Palestinians did. That's about it for this section. Totally one sided yet again.
I agree with you that the section on Palestinian violence should be summarized and there should be something about Israeli retaliation.
8. Arab peace initiative. Why couldn't Israel accept? Because the Palestinians won't end terrorism. And look! Saudi Arabia funds Hamas, proving once more that Arabs can't be trusted.
What are you saying here? You are just disagreeing with what Shimon Perez said, or what Bush said, not with the section, so I dont see why this is POV. Please keep your personal opinion of the conflict to yourself and stick to the facts. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 09:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I've done a rewrite of this section which I think gives a more detailed and balanced picture. I thought I might as well post it here first to get some feedback. Please note that in addition to the extra detail, I've striven hard to make it as NPOV as possible, by avoiding as far as possible blame or implied blame of either side, even where it could reasonably be argued that blame exists. I figure that people who want more info can always go and read the dedicated article on the six day war. I've yet to include refs BTW, but all of this stuff is easily sourced. Anyhow, here it is (revised proposal as of 25th June):
The Six Day War of June 1967 was arguably the most decisive war in the conflict, with the most far-reaching effects. Causes of the war are well established, but the question of which side bears most responsibility for its occurence is still a keenly debated topic.
In 1955, Israel and the Arab states had agreed in principle to the US-sponsored Johnston water allocation plan for the region, but in the wake of the Suez war the Arab states ended their cooperation. Israel continued construction of its national water carrier in conformity with the now defunct agreement, and completed it in 1964, but Syria now objected to the scheme and in 1965 iniiated a scheme of its own aimed at reducing supply to the Israeli carrier. Israel responded by shelling and bombing the Syrian construction works, forcing the Syrians to abandon their plan.
Territorial disputes between Israel and Syria were also growing. Ever since the 1949 armistice, Israeli and Syria had been separated by a UN-monitored demilitarized zone, but both sides laid claim to territories within the zone and could not agree on a means of demarcation. When Israel began making de facto claims on the DMZ by cultivating it for Israeli use, the Syrians responded with artillery fire, triggering numerous armed exchanges between the two sides. These border skirmishes, along with defeat in the "water war", spurred the Syrians to begin sponsoring cross-border raids against Israel by Palestinian miltants. While such raids did little damage, they also served to heighten tensions.
In November 1966 in response to a minelaying raid attributed to such militants, Israel launched a brigade-sized military assault on the Jordanian village of Samu, from which the raid was presumed to have originated. The Israeli raid triggered a campaign of mockery in the Arab world against Egyptian President Nasser, the self-styled pan-Arab leader. In April 1967, another border clash between Israel and Syria resulted in an aerial dogfight over Damascus in which six Syrian jets were shot down, increasing pressure on Nasser to make a concrete gesture of support for his Syrian ally.
On May 17, Nasser asked the UN peacekeeping force on the Egypt-Israeli border to leave, and moved several divisions into the Sinai within striking distance of Israel. On May 22, he went further by reimposing the pre-Suez blockade of Israeli shipping through the Straits of Tiran - an action which the Israelis had long avowed would be considered by them a casus belli. On May 30, Jordan joined the Egypt-Syria mutual defence pact.
On June 5, citing the Egyptian naval blockade and fears of a combined Arab invasion, Israel launched what it termed a pre-emptive strike on the Arab alliance. The attack began with a massive air assault on Egyptian and thereafter Syrian airfields, catching and destroying the Arab air forces on the ground and thereby establishing total air superiority for the rest of the campaign. A lightning armoured assault on Egyptian forces in the Sinai followed. On June 6, the Israeli offensive was expanded to include Jordan, and on June 9 Syria. In just six days of war, Israel captured Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria. The status of these captured territories would do much to shape the course of the conflict in coming years.
Failure of peace talks
A week after the end of the war, the Israeli cabinet met and agreed in principle to return the Golan Heights to Syria and the Sinai peninsula to Egypt in exchange for comprehensive peace treaties with both countries. The offer however did not include return of either the Gaza Strip to Egypt or the West Bank to Jordan. While the cabinet decision was never submitted to the Arabs as a formal offer, it appears the Egyptians were informed of it via the US and rejected it as a basis for negotiations. The Arabs wanted a full withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the recent war as a basis for peace talks, which the Israelis in turn were not prepared to consider.
By July, the Israeli cabinet was having second thoughts about its initial proposal, and agreeing to the establishment of Israeli settlements not only in the West Bank, but also in the Golan Heights. In late August, the Arab League met at Khartoum and issued the "three noes" - no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel and no recognition of Israel. In spite of its apparent hardline position, the Khartoum resolution did not rule out indirect negotiations or the possibility of a diplomatic settlement. The resolution however did persuade Israel to formally withdraw its initial terms as outlined by the June cabinet meeting.
The Arabs feared that direct negotiations with the Israelis would enable the latter to dictate terms. They wanted to negotiate terms through the UN, which they felt would help guarantee their rights. The Israeli position was a mirror image of the Arab. The Israelis wanted direct negotiations, and feared that a UN-brokered agreement would be both unrealistic and to their disadvantage. In the event, indirect UN-brokered peace talks were initiated through the auspices of the Jarring mission, which the Israelis only participated in with great reluctance and which were thereby probably doomed to failure. The Israelis instead held secret direct negotiatons with Jordan over the future status of the West Bank, but with neither party able to agree on a settlement, the conflict was set to continue.
Gatoclass 04:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
This looks good to me. There are some problems though with your earlier edits in the "Arab-Israeli Conflict" The Straits of Tiran and even the Suez Canal closures before the 1956 war were an on again, off again thing, the S of T one first occurring in 1950 IIRC. This was partially due to international pressure or not, like SC 95 which insisted the canal be open. On the other hand, the British agreed in 1951 that Egypt had some rights of searching shipping going through the straits, though. The Constantinople Convention applies to the canal, not the straits. Israel's main import in the early 50s through the straits was cement carried on non-Israeli ships, Israeli-flagged shipping through either waterway being relatively unimportant. Israel was using it to build the port, which had not existed before. The port wasn't really operating til shortly before the war, so the idea that it was of actual current economic importance before this war is foolish - of course it became important, as a conduit for most of Israel's oil imports after this war. I'm mentioning this because there were some recent edits to the Suez War article which grossly exaggerated the economic importance. If you are interested and have the time you might want to look at that article. A good accessible source on the maritime issues is Fred Khoury's great old book The Arab-Israeli Dilemma; I was planning on writing something on the confusing maritime & legal issues a long time ago, based on this and on the J N Moore Arab Israeli international law readings & documents volumes. Again, I like what you did for the 6-day here, although that article can be such an edit-war zoo I don't have high hopes of much of it migrating there, as a summary or something. John Z 07:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe that this should be implemented for now since the current version is not at all acceptable as it is. Especially for the part about Jordan's attack on Israel and Syria shelling the border as the cause of the invasion of the Golan heights and the West Bank plus the part that puts forward Egypt troops in the Sinai and lack of a diplomatic resolution as the starting cause of the conflict. I do not need to say that the attacks from Jordan was due to the alliance of Jordan to Egypt, and Nasser exhorting Hussein to attack; an alliance, in part caused by the Israeli-Jordanian conflict, initiated by Israel after heavy reprisals of terrorist attacks passing through Jordan from Syria. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 13:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Your article is complete but it has too many details that are quite unecessary since they are already covered on the 6 day war page. We just need a good wrap up of the war and a good wrap up of the events that led to it(notice the repetition). 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 08:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm tempted to delete the section on the Hamas-Fatah conflict since I don't believe that it fits under the rubric of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It seems more localized to the Palestinian people only. Perhaps in the future if and when Israel becomes more directly involved in the conflict, it might be worth mentioning here, but right now I don't see how this is part of the Arab-Israeli conflict any more than changes in Israeli administration are part of the overall conflict. I'm willing to hear other opinions before deleting it. -- GHcool 22:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
A couple of days ago, I tried to remove the NPOV tag at the top of the article page citing that there is currently no discussion on the talk page concerning this article's NPOV or lack thereof. Gatoclass reverted this action saying, "Yes, there is still a dispute. There's a lot of work to do on this page, and it's going to take quite a while to fix it." So my question to Gatoclass and others is what can/should be done in order to get that ugly NPOV tag off the page? -- GHcool 18:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
if there is no NPOV problem being disputed (and make no mistake, there currently is not)
How you come to this conclusion I can't imagine. I'm asserting that there is an NPOV problem, hence there is an NPOV dispute. If anybody disputes NPOV, it's self evident there is a dispute.
if you are serious about making the article NPOV, you could change the stuff within the article that you don't like.
Which is exactly what I'm proposing to do. I've simply said it's going to take me a little while to get it done. I'll try to set some time aside tonight or tomorrow for finalizing a proposal for the six day war, then we can discuss the proposed changes, after which we can move onto other issues. Regards, Gatoclass 02:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the only issues that needs to be tackled is the second intifada and then we can remove the NPOV tag if nobody objects. I put a suggestion for the intifada feel free to change it if you want, but I strongly support Gatoclass issue on that section and I feel we should change it to bring this article up to par ( Patrick.N.L ( talk) 07:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC))
This section need to be combed a lot. First it has already been noted that this section was POV. Nothing is false in this section, it is just that there are details about only one side of the conflict. Logically, the details should amount to less than on a page about the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict history; this is not the case! I would suggest that shorter is better, first it will solve POV problem, second it will be easier and faster to read through, and reader can always find complete info on the page of the intifada.
As first draft for a more neutral section I would suggest this(taken mostly from the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict history)
The al-Aqsa Intifada was a wave of violence which began in September 2000 between Palestinian Arabs and Israelis; it is also called the Second Intifada. Many Palestinians consider the intifada to be a war of national liberation against foreign occupation, whereas many Israelis consider it to be a terrorist campaign. B'Tselem, estimated the death toll to be 3,396 Palestinians and 994 Israelis [6]. The Intifada also created "heavy economic losses to both sides" of the conflict.[4] 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 06:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Who believes in the Israeli perspectives should say yes. Heroes who have cut off the Egyptian third army and were able to destroy it but were fool enough not to do so...never the less, they even gave the Egyptians back the Suez Canal. think that's surprising?...here is the kicker, they even left the Sinai with it's tourist attracting sites, and oil fields which were their only long term source!!, they even kicked their own citizens out of the Sinai. Of course all of that is because they love Egyptians, and the proof of that is that the percentage of them visiting Egypt is less 3 times than that of the Egyptians. A missing part of the story is then why the heck did not they do so from the beginning, and why did they occupy the Sinai in the first place? but of course the one who believes what was mentioned above would say maybe those ideas did not pass through their minds it the time, or that they changed their opinions, and decided that they had had enough war with the Egyptians so give the a NARROW STRIPE (WHICH IS 15 KILOMETERS WIDE, AND 163 KILOS LONG!!). donot be surprised when such a person is asked then why didnot they just SPARE Egypt, but at least keep the October 24 lines, or the October 22's? where the answer would be they did not like Africa聽:)D. A person who believes in the Egyptian perspective such as me, would be believing in the following: the Egyptian light armed infantry faced the heavily fortified bar-lev line, and won within 6 hours. artillery unites along with the air force had the major rule in tiring the Israeli reserve in the Sinai. the commandos held back the Israeli reserve until the armored forces finally crossed the canal. the out-dated Egyptian armour was aided by the anti-tank infantry who were the main reason for Israeli armour set backs. in the second phase of the war, the Egyptian armour advanced in a major attack to help the Syrians, that attack was repelled. finally, the Israeli forces found a weakly defended gape between the 2 Egyptian armies which was actually used for transporting supplies. out numbered, and out gunned, the small force there was taken by the IDF which crossed in the narrow gape. Not a matter of surprise, the UN led by USA finally realized whoa, there is a war up there and made the first cease fire decision. the decision was not respected by the Israeli side which attacked cities of the canal, but failed to hold them due to the civil defense forces supplied by the army. the rest is the same in the Israeli version. The IDF cut off supplies on the 3rd army, but latter, in return of sparing the Israeli POWs, the 3rd army was supplied with food, water, and other non-military needs. finally, the war ended with the Israeli side withdrawing not "allowing the Egyptians to get back so, and so..." as deep as approximately. one third of the Sinai, the land appandoned by the IDF was occupied by Egyptian forces, and the canal is back into service under Egyptian control. other long-term results of the war were fare more better case for the Egyptian side.a and I tell u what, u have the absolute right to believe the perspective u want, but if u want a real neutral source, I recommend the american government documentaries which stayed classified for a period, now it can be found, and downloaded from the George Washington university web site. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by One last pharaoh ( talk 鈥 contribs) 18:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, why did u delete the editors name??? One last pharaoh ( talk) 23:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
the American government documentaries can never be trusted as they were clearly on the Israeli side and even till now it is better for them that the arabs remained discouraged and fearing Israel so beside if the Israeli had the power to destroy the third army why didn't they at the very least push them back or stop them from gainng ground (after the third army was encircled it kept gaining ground) it should be noted though that egypt had the power to close the gab and later destroy the divisions that crossed however for political reasons which Sadat saw (that man is a diplomatic genius but i really hate him) a total victory was impossible and inflicting such a blow on the Israeli would have probably make the peace process impossible and Israel would then keep Sinai and with the destruction of the USSR that would be Egypt's end so the best solution for Egypt to get Sinai back and for Israel to avoid humiliating defeat and heavy casualties was to return Sinai to Egypt and to have peace with them thus neutralizing its most dangerous enemy in the area back then in 1973 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Nightshadow 2007 ( talk 鈥 contribs) 16:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Pharaoh, you can't be serious. "rv. vandalism, ur personal interest or opinion is not supposed to influence the article". Vandalism? The phrase you keep inserting, with emphasis yet, simply has no logical connection with the preceding phrase or the context. Or am I missing something? Israel didn't have 264,000 troops in the peninsula, or even mobilized, so what, then, is the relevancy? This is about improving the article, not about my "personal interest or opinion". What about your own, for that matter? Why not try explaining and justifying your edit, rather than attacking other editors? Hertz1888 ( talk) 15:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Quoting WP:VAND: "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." Hertz1888 ( talk) 15:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Claiming Palestine as a big motive for al-Qa'eda seems quite incorrect, since Bin Ladin barely mentioned Palestine at all for many years (in clear contrast to the burning grievance he expressed over the issue of the stationing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia). Al-Qa'eda conspicuously failed to launch any attack aimed mainly at Israelis or Jews until over ten years after the organization was founded (i.e. the Kenyan hotel bombings). At most, generalized overall Arab or Muslim resentments made it easier to find recruits for al-Qa'eda -- but saying that al-Qae'da attacked New York "beacause" of Palestine seems pretty much nonsensical. AnonMoos ( talk) 18:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Some snippets from Time Magazine to use as food for thought:
At London, in an address before a session of the World Zionist Organization, Sir Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner of Palestine, waxed enthusiastic over the upbuilding of the Jewish National Home and the general progress of Palestine. Said he:
"The industrial exposition in Tel-Aviv revealed the development of Palestinian industry, and was a convincing indication that Palestine may become the industrial centre of the Middle East within our generation."
Profoundly disapproving of the Zionist policy of discrimination against Arab labor, he concluded that Jewish nationalism encouraged Arab nationalism, while the depressing of Arab wages made conflict inevitable. Jews who had been persecuted in Germany now persecuted Arabs and preached a doctrine of racial purity as relentless as the one under which they had suffered. A little dizzy from following this vicious circle all the way around, Gessner came reluctantly to a doubtful conclusion: "If we can't get along with the Arabs, we have failed."
They talked confidently鈥攊ndeed, stridently鈥攐f a state of ten million, not necessarily confined to the present boundaries of Israel. It was a bad joke, and also a sober observation, that the idea of Drang nach Osten lived in the new nation of Hitler's victims. As they looked around them at a disorganized and unproductive Arab world, Israelis showed some of the reactions of the prewar Germans looking around a disorganized and unproductive Europe. The new blood of nationalism ran fast and hot in Israel; sometimes it seemed to be gushing out on the ground. Pleading for more understanding and tolerance of Israel, one sympathetic observer warned: "This could become an ugly little Spartan state."
-- Stor stark7 Speak 15:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Article has a robust discussion of Arab violence but just one 'afterthought' sentence about Jewish violence. Without that sentence, this would be a public relations release. Content needed by someone with a complete understanding of this history. A neutrality alert seems appropriate. RaqiwasSushi ( talk) 23:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
The claim made in this edit is false, hence my revert. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 13:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Zero talk 13:57, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
We still can't say in the neutral voice of the encyclopedia that "about 300,000 Arabs emigrated into Palestine", as the actual evidence, as presented by multiple WP:RS says that Arab emigration was pretty much negligible. I will supply such sources upon request. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 00:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I objected to the phrasing in these edits because describing the Arab residents of Ottoman Palestine as "Palestinian Arabs" (and linking to the Palestinian people article) implies that the modern day Palestinian identity described in the Palestinian people existed since the 1880s. It did not. It would be more accurate to describe the conflict as between Jews and Arabs, rather than as Jews and Palestinian Arabs. -- GHcool ( talk) 19:29, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that Michael Oren's work which suggests 300,000 Arabs immigrated to Palestine also claimed an initial population of Palestine 300,000, 50%, lower than all the other sources. Is this correct, can someone with access to the source check and if so modify the text added by GHcool to show that Oren's claims go against established history. Thanks, Sepsis II ( talk) 22:57, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
All my changes were explained. GHcool's revert without explanation and including removal of new high-quality material without even mentioning it was really quite beyond the pale. Let's look in more detail at my edits:
Zero talk 00:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
The actual population counts made in the 1881-2 Ottoman census were published by Kemal Karpat, International Journal of Middle East Studies, vol. 9 (1978), pp. 237鈥274. The relevant numbers are Kudus (Jerusalem) special district 234,770, Akko sanjak 75,882, Belka (Nablus) sanjak 115,314. Total 425,966, which included about 10,000 Jews. These are people actually counted (family heads written down in a register). McCarthy argues that there was undercounting of women and children and adjusts the numbers upwards by about 10%. Not all scholars agree with McCarthy's adjustments, but nobody claims that the counts were too high. Since the main purpose of the census was collecting taxes and young men for military service, there was a strong incentive to under-report. On the other hand, I should mention that the census was not conducted all at once but was a process that lasted several years. It is easy to find other writings from serious demographers in support of similar numbers and I don't see why we should report impossibly low numbers from people with no expertise in the subject who don't even say where they got their numbers from. Zero talk 01:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Given the importance of the conflict articles to our project I had hoped for more feedback at this RFC, but I think I overcomplicated the description. Some editors may also be thinking "we've been just fine for 10 years so is there really a problem here that needs solving"? I would like to encourage more editors to contribute.
The core issue behind the RFC question is that most readers know very little about the conflict and therefore need one single summary article to read and begin their journey, and we need that single summary article to broadly match the picture that the 1,000s of books summarizing this conflict take. Instead we have sat for many years with three primary articles ( IPC since 48, AIC since 48 and ICMP 20-48) which are fine but are missing something above them to thread them together into the 100-year-narrative of the conflict presented by the vast majority of books on the topic.
I recognize that many editors may find the question is a little more dry and boring than many of the debates around here, but its importance to the average Wikipedia reader can hardly be overstated.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) 鈥 Nnadigoodluck 鈻鈻鈻 12:46, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
History of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈫 Timeline of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈥 Per general title structure of similar timeline articles on conflicts, such as Timeline of the Syrian Civil War, Timeline of the Iraq War, etc GreyShark ( dibra) 11:11, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) 鉂澂鉂 Raydann (Talk) 14:49, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Timeline of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈫
History of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈥 This is not a timeline. The reason that Timeline should be in the name of the article was that Per general title structure of similar timeline articles on conflicts, such as Timeline of the
Syrian Civil War,
Timeline of the Iraq War, etc
; but Wikipedia has other articles called
History of the War in Afghanistan (2001鈥2021) and
History of the Israeli鈥揚alestinian conflict. See
WP:CONSISTENT and
WP:CRITERION
Parham wiki (
talk) 17:19, 30 September 2023 (UTC) 鈥斅Relisting.聽
鈥 robertsky (
talk)
20:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
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![]() | On 30 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Timeline of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict to History of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Where are the previous discussions from this page? -- MZMcBride 01:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
All three of these articles seem to discuss the same things in varying degrees of detail. Let's merge all three of them under the name of "Arab-Israeli conflict." -- GHcool 18:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind. See talk page on Arab-Israeli conflict. -- GHcool 03:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think Operation Summer Rains should be added to the history or is it just a part of the al-Aqsa Intifada? -- GHcool 03:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I am changing the following from the Mandate section:
The Jewish leadership (Yishuv) "adopted a policy of restraint (havlaga) and static defense in response to Arab attacks."[3]
to read:
Some of Jewish leadership (Yishuv) "adopted a policy of restraint (havlaga) and static defense in response to Arab attacks."[3] However, during this same period, the Irgun, led attacks on the Arab population in which more than 250 Arabs were killed.
Also, I've changed the following from the 1948 section:
The Arabs had rejected the plan while the Jews had accepted it. Arab militias had begun campaigns to control territory inside and outside the designated borders, and an open war between the two populations emerged.
to read:
By March of 1948 however, the US was actively seeking a UN approved trusteeship rather than immediate partition. The Jewish leadership rejected this. By now, both Jewish and Arab militias had begun campaigns to control territory inside and outside the designated borders, and an open war between the two populations emerged.
EllenS 02:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
EllenS 02:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sticking a POV template on this article until further notice. There's quite a bit of POV that seems to have crept into some sections. Gatoclass 16:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh heck, I just spent 20 minutes explaining the reasons and this blasted website ate it. I really can't be bothered detailing all the problems again. But basically, the Arabs are getting the blame in section after section. This is a very one sided account of the conflict. Gatoclass 07:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's try again.
1. Six day war. All the belligerent actions of the Arabs are recorded, but not those by the Israelis, such as their reprisal raids on Syria and Jordan or their brinkmanship on the Syrian border. Also, the faulty soviet intelligence given to the Egyptians is not mentioned. This has the effect of placing all the blame for the war on the Arabs. It's a one sided account.
2. Yom Kippur war. All it tells us is that the Arabs mounted a suprise attack on Israel. Fails to mention that they were trying to recapture their own territory held by Israel in violation of 242 and after Sadat's land-for-peace offers were rebuffed. So again, the Arabs are painted as going to war for no reason at all.
3. First intifada. What caused it? I quote: "the failure of the PLO to achieve any kind of meaningful diplomatic solution to the Palestinian issue." The Israelis, apparently, bear no responsibility at all for the lack of progress. Beginning to see a pattern here?
6. Oslo peace process. What went wrong? Well apparently the problem was that it was met by "a wave of violence" from Palestinian fanatics. Actually, violence declined greatly in the Oslo years, so this is not even correct. But why doesn't Netanyahu's and Barak's expansion of the settlements get a mention?
7. Second intifada. A list of all the violent things Palestinians did. That's about it for this section. Totally one sided yet again.
8. Arab peace initiative. Why couldn't Israel accept? Because the Palestinians won't end terrorism. And look! Saudi Arabia funds Hamas, proving once more that Arabs can't be trusted.
And so on... Gatoclass 07:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Gato, the article on the yom-kippour war just states the attacker and the defender. I believe you make a good fuss out of nothing much.
3. First intifada. What caused it? I quote: "the failure of the PLO to achieve any kind of meaningful diplomatic solution to the Palestinian issue." The Israelis, apparently, bear no responsibility at all for the lack of progress. Beginning to see a pattern here?
Well either you misread or you just want to prove your point since it is written:
The First Intifada, 1987-1993, began as an uprising [...] against the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip after the failure of the PLO to achieve any kind of meaningful diplomatic solution to the Palestinian issue.
As I see it the First Intifada was caused by the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank after the failure of a diplomatic sln of the Palestinian issue.
7. Second intifada. A list of all the violent things Palestinians did. That's about it for this section. Totally one sided yet again.
I agree with you that the section on Palestinian violence should be summarized and there should be something about Israeli retaliation.
8. Arab peace initiative. Why couldn't Israel accept? Because the Palestinians won't end terrorism. And look! Saudi Arabia funds Hamas, proving once more that Arabs can't be trusted.
What are you saying here? You are just disagreeing with what Shimon Perez said, or what Bush said, not with the section, so I dont see why this is POV. Please keep your personal opinion of the conflict to yourself and stick to the facts. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 09:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I've done a rewrite of this section which I think gives a more detailed and balanced picture. I thought I might as well post it here first to get some feedback. Please note that in addition to the extra detail, I've striven hard to make it as NPOV as possible, by avoiding as far as possible blame or implied blame of either side, even where it could reasonably be argued that blame exists. I figure that people who want more info can always go and read the dedicated article on the six day war. I've yet to include refs BTW, but all of this stuff is easily sourced. Anyhow, here it is (revised proposal as of 25th June):
The Six Day War of June 1967 was arguably the most decisive war in the conflict, with the most far-reaching effects. Causes of the war are well established, but the question of which side bears most responsibility for its occurence is still a keenly debated topic.
In 1955, Israel and the Arab states had agreed in principle to the US-sponsored Johnston water allocation plan for the region, but in the wake of the Suez war the Arab states ended their cooperation. Israel continued construction of its national water carrier in conformity with the now defunct agreement, and completed it in 1964, but Syria now objected to the scheme and in 1965 iniiated a scheme of its own aimed at reducing supply to the Israeli carrier. Israel responded by shelling and bombing the Syrian construction works, forcing the Syrians to abandon their plan.
Territorial disputes between Israel and Syria were also growing. Ever since the 1949 armistice, Israeli and Syria had been separated by a UN-monitored demilitarized zone, but both sides laid claim to territories within the zone and could not agree on a means of demarcation. When Israel began making de facto claims on the DMZ by cultivating it for Israeli use, the Syrians responded with artillery fire, triggering numerous armed exchanges between the two sides. These border skirmishes, along with defeat in the "water war", spurred the Syrians to begin sponsoring cross-border raids against Israel by Palestinian miltants. While such raids did little damage, they also served to heighten tensions.
In November 1966 in response to a minelaying raid attributed to such militants, Israel launched a brigade-sized military assault on the Jordanian village of Samu, from which the raid was presumed to have originated. The Israeli raid triggered a campaign of mockery in the Arab world against Egyptian President Nasser, the self-styled pan-Arab leader. In April 1967, another border clash between Israel and Syria resulted in an aerial dogfight over Damascus in which six Syrian jets were shot down, increasing pressure on Nasser to make a concrete gesture of support for his Syrian ally.
On May 17, Nasser asked the UN peacekeeping force on the Egypt-Israeli border to leave, and moved several divisions into the Sinai within striking distance of Israel. On May 22, he went further by reimposing the pre-Suez blockade of Israeli shipping through the Straits of Tiran - an action which the Israelis had long avowed would be considered by them a casus belli. On May 30, Jordan joined the Egypt-Syria mutual defence pact.
On June 5, citing the Egyptian naval blockade and fears of a combined Arab invasion, Israel launched what it termed a pre-emptive strike on the Arab alliance. The attack began with a massive air assault on Egyptian and thereafter Syrian airfields, catching and destroying the Arab air forces on the ground and thereby establishing total air superiority for the rest of the campaign. A lightning armoured assault on Egyptian forces in the Sinai followed. On June 6, the Israeli offensive was expanded to include Jordan, and on June 9 Syria. In just six days of war, Israel captured Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria. The status of these captured territories would do much to shape the course of the conflict in coming years.
Failure of peace talks
A week after the end of the war, the Israeli cabinet met and agreed in principle to return the Golan Heights to Syria and the Sinai peninsula to Egypt in exchange for comprehensive peace treaties with both countries. The offer however did not include return of either the Gaza Strip to Egypt or the West Bank to Jordan. While the cabinet decision was never submitted to the Arabs as a formal offer, it appears the Egyptians were informed of it via the US and rejected it as a basis for negotiations. The Arabs wanted a full withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the recent war as a basis for peace talks, which the Israelis in turn were not prepared to consider.
By July, the Israeli cabinet was having second thoughts about its initial proposal, and agreeing to the establishment of Israeli settlements not only in the West Bank, but also in the Golan Heights. In late August, the Arab League met at Khartoum and issued the "three noes" - no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel and no recognition of Israel. In spite of its apparent hardline position, the Khartoum resolution did not rule out indirect negotiations or the possibility of a diplomatic settlement. The resolution however did persuade Israel to formally withdraw its initial terms as outlined by the June cabinet meeting.
The Arabs feared that direct negotiations with the Israelis would enable the latter to dictate terms. They wanted to negotiate terms through the UN, which they felt would help guarantee their rights. The Israeli position was a mirror image of the Arab. The Israelis wanted direct negotiations, and feared that a UN-brokered agreement would be both unrealistic and to their disadvantage. In the event, indirect UN-brokered peace talks were initiated through the auspices of the Jarring mission, which the Israelis only participated in with great reluctance and which were thereby probably doomed to failure. The Israelis instead held secret direct negotiatons with Jordan over the future status of the West Bank, but with neither party able to agree on a settlement, the conflict was set to continue.
Gatoclass 04:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
This looks good to me. There are some problems though with your earlier edits in the "Arab-Israeli Conflict" The Straits of Tiran and even the Suez Canal closures before the 1956 war were an on again, off again thing, the S of T one first occurring in 1950 IIRC. This was partially due to international pressure or not, like SC 95 which insisted the canal be open. On the other hand, the British agreed in 1951 that Egypt had some rights of searching shipping going through the straits, though. The Constantinople Convention applies to the canal, not the straits. Israel's main import in the early 50s through the straits was cement carried on non-Israeli ships, Israeli-flagged shipping through either waterway being relatively unimportant. Israel was using it to build the port, which had not existed before. The port wasn't really operating til shortly before the war, so the idea that it was of actual current economic importance before this war is foolish - of course it became important, as a conduit for most of Israel's oil imports after this war. I'm mentioning this because there were some recent edits to the Suez War article which grossly exaggerated the economic importance. If you are interested and have the time you might want to look at that article. A good accessible source on the maritime issues is Fred Khoury's great old book The Arab-Israeli Dilemma; I was planning on writing something on the confusing maritime & legal issues a long time ago, based on this and on the J N Moore Arab Israeli international law readings & documents volumes. Again, I like what you did for the 6-day here, although that article can be such an edit-war zoo I don't have high hopes of much of it migrating there, as a summary or something. John Z 07:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe that this should be implemented for now since the current version is not at all acceptable as it is. Especially for the part about Jordan's attack on Israel and Syria shelling the border as the cause of the invasion of the Golan heights and the West Bank plus the part that puts forward Egypt troops in the Sinai and lack of a diplomatic resolution as the starting cause of the conflict. I do not need to say that the attacks from Jordan was due to the alliance of Jordan to Egypt, and Nasser exhorting Hussein to attack; an alliance, in part caused by the Israeli-Jordanian conflict, initiated by Israel after heavy reprisals of terrorist attacks passing through Jordan from Syria. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 13:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Your article is complete but it has too many details that are quite unecessary since they are already covered on the 6 day war page. We just need a good wrap up of the war and a good wrap up of the events that led to it(notice the repetition). 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 08:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm tempted to delete the section on the Hamas-Fatah conflict since I don't believe that it fits under the rubric of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It seems more localized to the Palestinian people only. Perhaps in the future if and when Israel becomes more directly involved in the conflict, it might be worth mentioning here, but right now I don't see how this is part of the Arab-Israeli conflict any more than changes in Israeli administration are part of the overall conflict. I'm willing to hear other opinions before deleting it. -- GHcool 22:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
A couple of days ago, I tried to remove the NPOV tag at the top of the article page citing that there is currently no discussion on the talk page concerning this article's NPOV or lack thereof. Gatoclass reverted this action saying, "Yes, there is still a dispute. There's a lot of work to do on this page, and it's going to take quite a while to fix it." So my question to Gatoclass and others is what can/should be done in order to get that ugly NPOV tag off the page? -- GHcool 18:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
if there is no NPOV problem being disputed (and make no mistake, there currently is not)
How you come to this conclusion I can't imagine. I'm asserting that there is an NPOV problem, hence there is an NPOV dispute. If anybody disputes NPOV, it's self evident there is a dispute.
if you are serious about making the article NPOV, you could change the stuff within the article that you don't like.
Which is exactly what I'm proposing to do. I've simply said it's going to take me a little while to get it done. I'll try to set some time aside tonight or tomorrow for finalizing a proposal for the six day war, then we can discuss the proposed changes, after which we can move onto other issues. Regards, Gatoclass 02:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the only issues that needs to be tackled is the second intifada and then we can remove the NPOV tag if nobody objects. I put a suggestion for the intifada feel free to change it if you want, but I strongly support Gatoclass issue on that section and I feel we should change it to bring this article up to par ( Patrick.N.L ( talk) 07:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC))
This section need to be combed a lot. First it has already been noted that this section was POV. Nothing is false in this section, it is just that there are details about only one side of the conflict. Logically, the details should amount to less than on a page about the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict history; this is not the case! I would suggest that shorter is better, first it will solve POV problem, second it will be easier and faster to read through, and reader can always find complete info on the page of the intifada.
As first draft for a more neutral section I would suggest this(taken mostly from the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict history)
The al-Aqsa Intifada was a wave of violence which began in September 2000 between Palestinian Arabs and Israelis; it is also called the Second Intifada. Many Palestinians consider the intifada to be a war of national liberation against foreign occupation, whereas many Israelis consider it to be a terrorist campaign. B'Tselem, estimated the death toll to be 3,396 Palestinians and 994 Israelis [6]. The Intifada also created "heavy economic losses to both sides" of the conflict.[4] 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Patrick.N.L ( talk 鈥 contribs) 06:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Who believes in the Israeli perspectives should say yes. Heroes who have cut off the Egyptian third army and were able to destroy it but were fool enough not to do so...never the less, they even gave the Egyptians back the Suez Canal. think that's surprising?...here is the kicker, they even left the Sinai with it's tourist attracting sites, and oil fields which were their only long term source!!, they even kicked their own citizens out of the Sinai. Of course all of that is because they love Egyptians, and the proof of that is that the percentage of them visiting Egypt is less 3 times than that of the Egyptians. A missing part of the story is then why the heck did not they do so from the beginning, and why did they occupy the Sinai in the first place? but of course the one who believes what was mentioned above would say maybe those ideas did not pass through their minds it the time, or that they changed their opinions, and decided that they had had enough war with the Egyptians so give the a NARROW STRIPE (WHICH IS 15 KILOMETERS WIDE, AND 163 KILOS LONG!!). donot be surprised when such a person is asked then why didnot they just SPARE Egypt, but at least keep the October 24 lines, or the October 22's? where the answer would be they did not like Africa聽:)D. A person who believes in the Egyptian perspective such as me, would be believing in the following: the Egyptian light armed infantry faced the heavily fortified bar-lev line, and won within 6 hours. artillery unites along with the air force had the major rule in tiring the Israeli reserve in the Sinai. the commandos held back the Israeli reserve until the armored forces finally crossed the canal. the out-dated Egyptian armour was aided by the anti-tank infantry who were the main reason for Israeli armour set backs. in the second phase of the war, the Egyptian armour advanced in a major attack to help the Syrians, that attack was repelled. finally, the Israeli forces found a weakly defended gape between the 2 Egyptian armies which was actually used for transporting supplies. out numbered, and out gunned, the small force there was taken by the IDF which crossed in the narrow gape. Not a matter of surprise, the UN led by USA finally realized whoa, there is a war up there and made the first cease fire decision. the decision was not respected by the Israeli side which attacked cities of the canal, but failed to hold them due to the civil defense forces supplied by the army. the rest is the same in the Israeli version. The IDF cut off supplies on the 3rd army, but latter, in return of sparing the Israeli POWs, the 3rd army was supplied with food, water, and other non-military needs. finally, the war ended with the Israeli side withdrawing not "allowing the Egyptians to get back so, and so..." as deep as approximately. one third of the Sinai, the land appandoned by the IDF was occupied by Egyptian forces, and the canal is back into service under Egyptian control. other long-term results of the war were fare more better case for the Egyptian side.a and I tell u what, u have the absolute right to believe the perspective u want, but if u want a real neutral source, I recommend the american government documentaries which stayed classified for a period, now it can be found, and downloaded from the George Washington university web site. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by One last pharaoh ( talk 鈥 contribs) 18:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, why did u delete the editors name??? One last pharaoh ( talk) 23:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
the American government documentaries can never be trusted as they were clearly on the Israeli side and even till now it is better for them that the arabs remained discouraged and fearing Israel so beside if the Israeli had the power to destroy the third army why didn't they at the very least push them back or stop them from gainng ground (after the third army was encircled it kept gaining ground) it should be noted though that egypt had the power to close the gab and later destroy the divisions that crossed however for political reasons which Sadat saw (that man is a diplomatic genius but i really hate him) a total victory was impossible and inflicting such a blow on the Israeli would have probably make the peace process impossible and Israel would then keep Sinai and with the destruction of the USSR that would be Egypt's end so the best solution for Egypt to get Sinai back and for Israel to avoid humiliating defeat and heavy casualties was to return Sinai to Egypt and to have peace with them thus neutralizing its most dangerous enemy in the area back then in 1973 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Nightshadow 2007 ( talk 鈥 contribs) 16:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Pharaoh, you can't be serious. "rv. vandalism, ur personal interest or opinion is not supposed to influence the article". Vandalism? The phrase you keep inserting, with emphasis yet, simply has no logical connection with the preceding phrase or the context. Or am I missing something? Israel didn't have 264,000 troops in the peninsula, or even mobilized, so what, then, is the relevancy? This is about improving the article, not about my "personal interest or opinion". What about your own, for that matter? Why not try explaining and justifying your edit, rather than attacking other editors? Hertz1888 ( talk) 15:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Quoting WP:VAND: "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." Hertz1888 ( talk) 15:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Claiming Palestine as a big motive for al-Qa'eda seems quite incorrect, since Bin Ladin barely mentioned Palestine at all for many years (in clear contrast to the burning grievance he expressed over the issue of the stationing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia). Al-Qa'eda conspicuously failed to launch any attack aimed mainly at Israelis or Jews until over ten years after the organization was founded (i.e. the Kenyan hotel bombings). At most, generalized overall Arab or Muslim resentments made it easier to find recruits for al-Qa'eda -- but saying that al-Qae'da attacked New York "beacause" of Palestine seems pretty much nonsensical. AnonMoos ( talk) 18:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Some snippets from Time Magazine to use as food for thought:
At London, in an address before a session of the World Zionist Organization, Sir Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner of Palestine, waxed enthusiastic over the upbuilding of the Jewish National Home and the general progress of Palestine. Said he:
"The industrial exposition in Tel-Aviv revealed the development of Palestinian industry, and was a convincing indication that Palestine may become the industrial centre of the Middle East within our generation."
Profoundly disapproving of the Zionist policy of discrimination against Arab labor, he concluded that Jewish nationalism encouraged Arab nationalism, while the depressing of Arab wages made conflict inevitable. Jews who had been persecuted in Germany now persecuted Arabs and preached a doctrine of racial purity as relentless as the one under which they had suffered. A little dizzy from following this vicious circle all the way around, Gessner came reluctantly to a doubtful conclusion: "If we can't get along with the Arabs, we have failed."
They talked confidently鈥攊ndeed, stridently鈥攐f a state of ten million, not necessarily confined to the present boundaries of Israel. It was a bad joke, and also a sober observation, that the idea of Drang nach Osten lived in the new nation of Hitler's victims. As they looked around them at a disorganized and unproductive Arab world, Israelis showed some of the reactions of the prewar Germans looking around a disorganized and unproductive Europe. The new blood of nationalism ran fast and hot in Israel; sometimes it seemed to be gushing out on the ground. Pleading for more understanding and tolerance of Israel, one sympathetic observer warned: "This could become an ugly little Spartan state."
-- Stor stark7 Speak 15:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Article has a robust discussion of Arab violence but just one 'afterthought' sentence about Jewish violence. Without that sentence, this would be a public relations release. Content needed by someone with a complete understanding of this history. A neutrality alert seems appropriate. RaqiwasSushi ( talk) 23:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
The claim made in this edit is false, hence my revert. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 13:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Zero talk 13:57, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
We still can't say in the neutral voice of the encyclopedia that "about 300,000 Arabs emigrated into Palestine", as the actual evidence, as presented by multiple WP:RS says that Arab emigration was pretty much negligible. I will supply such sources upon request. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 00:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I objected to the phrasing in these edits because describing the Arab residents of Ottoman Palestine as "Palestinian Arabs" (and linking to the Palestinian people article) implies that the modern day Palestinian identity described in the Palestinian people existed since the 1880s. It did not. It would be more accurate to describe the conflict as between Jews and Arabs, rather than as Jews and Palestinian Arabs. -- GHcool ( talk) 19:29, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that Michael Oren's work which suggests 300,000 Arabs immigrated to Palestine also claimed an initial population of Palestine 300,000, 50%, lower than all the other sources. Is this correct, can someone with access to the source check and if so modify the text added by GHcool to show that Oren's claims go against established history. Thanks, Sepsis II ( talk) 22:57, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
All my changes were explained. GHcool's revert without explanation and including removal of new high-quality material without even mentioning it was really quite beyond the pale. Let's look in more detail at my edits:
Zero talk 00:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
The actual population counts made in the 1881-2 Ottoman census were published by Kemal Karpat, International Journal of Middle East Studies, vol. 9 (1978), pp. 237鈥274. The relevant numbers are Kudus (Jerusalem) special district 234,770, Akko sanjak 75,882, Belka (Nablus) sanjak 115,314. Total 425,966, which included about 10,000 Jews. These are people actually counted (family heads written down in a register). McCarthy argues that there was undercounting of women and children and adjusts the numbers upwards by about 10%. Not all scholars agree with McCarthy's adjustments, but nobody claims that the counts were too high. Since the main purpose of the census was collecting taxes and young men for military service, there was a strong incentive to under-report. On the other hand, I should mention that the census was not conducted all at once but was a process that lasted several years. It is easy to find other writings from serious demographers in support of similar numbers and I don't see why we should report impossibly low numbers from people with no expertise in the subject who don't even say where they got their numbers from. Zero talk 01:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Given the importance of the conflict articles to our project I had hoped for more feedback at this RFC, but I think I overcomplicated the description. Some editors may also be thinking "we've been just fine for 10 years so is there really a problem here that needs solving"? I would like to encourage more editors to contribute.
The core issue behind the RFC question is that most readers know very little about the conflict and therefore need one single summary article to read and begin their journey, and we need that single summary article to broadly match the picture that the 1,000s of books summarizing this conflict take. Instead we have sat for many years with three primary articles ( IPC since 48, AIC since 48 and ICMP 20-48) which are fine but are missing something above them to thread them together into the 100-year-narrative of the conflict presented by the vast majority of books on the topic.
I recognize that many editors may find the question is a little more dry and boring than many of the debates around here, but its importance to the average Wikipedia reader can hardly be overstated.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) 鈥 Nnadigoodluck 鈻鈻鈻 12:46, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
History of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈫 Timeline of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈥 Per general title structure of similar timeline articles on conflicts, such as Timeline of the Syrian Civil War, Timeline of the Iraq War, etc GreyShark ( dibra) 11:11, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) 鉂澂鉂 Raydann (Talk) 14:49, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Timeline of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈫
History of the Arab鈥揑sraeli conflict 鈥 This is not a timeline. The reason that Timeline should be in the name of the article was that Per general title structure of similar timeline articles on conflicts, such as Timeline of the
Syrian Civil War,
Timeline of the Iraq War, etc
; but Wikipedia has other articles called
History of the War in Afghanistan (2001鈥2021) and
History of the Israeli鈥揚alestinian conflict. See
WP:CONSISTENT and
WP:CRITERION
Parham wiki (
talk) 17:19, 30 September 2023 (UTC) 鈥斅Relisting.聽
鈥 robertsky (
talk)
20:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)