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If you have a question about the contents, please have the courtesy to ask here. I assure you I am not exaggerating the cultural context of the 70s. alteripse 01:59, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
DanP Your edits to the sections make it more bland and not as easy to understand the main points. What POV are you removing? Please go mess with other articles. alteripse 00:50, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Digging a bit deeper: who specifically says a group was constructing a culture of victimhood? Did the mentioned "patient advocacy groups" specifically state that as a goal, or is that someone else's interpretation of their actions? The point here is that the sentence states that this happened empirically, but not from whose point of view (I infer another point of view that this attitude arose out of larger societal forces and not by the actions of a specific group). The article would be better served to cite who (group, researcher, or person) draws this conclusion. Otherwise, I'm afraid it sounds like speculation (original research). Please note I'm not questioning accuracy, and I am not a subject matter expert -- I'm questioning sources, and point of view. Cleduc 23:01, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Groups like ISNA and academics like Fausto-Sterling taught intersex patients and the western public to see them as victims of medical treatment. It was one of the stated purposes of her articles and of organizations like those mentioned. You could describe it from a different pov of course. For example, These victims of the oppressive medical system that enforced society's heterosexual hegemony suffered in silent isolation until groups like ISNA connected them with each other, and raised their consciousness and political awareness. Heroic academics like FS championed their cause to the open-minded youth of the West, opening their eyes to the evil mutilations being perpetrated by the heterofascist and sadistic medical doctors... You may think I am exaggerating but I am not, and you can find examples of that kind of writing removed from various wikipedia articles. I am not making any of this up and the article describes all points of view; I did omit some of the more bizarre and ludicrous because the reality-oriented portion of isna advocacy was valuable and the organization has dissociated itself from some of the more preposterous claims (see their website). FS has admitted in print that her widely quoted statistics are very inaccurate and were basically invented by some undergraduates under her guidance trying to come up with the largest numbers possible for political advocacy purposes. (ref in the article I think-- if not I will put it in). The other article she is known for, in the NYAS magazine which she advocated social recognition of 5 sexes, has been repudiated by her and isna. It is hard to caricature some of these people because what they have actually published is so ridiculous. alteripse 21:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Well I have no evidence for explicitly calling them cynical. I assume the patient advocacy groups believed it just like the many of the people who leave impassioned but uniformed edits on this topic in wikipedia. What was striking was the ill-informed nature of much that was written with passion on this topic, even by academics. You can see examples in the intersexuality article regularly. The problem is that these are conditions that create unhappiness and problems for affected people and their families. Some of the surprising and distinctive aspects of the phenomenon were
I suppose I should rewrite and make some of these points more explicitly. It makes a good narrative but I was trying to describe all perspectives, not generate edit wars. alteripse 07:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
There's a disambig link to sex reassignment on this page. I read the (first) sentence in which it was contained and could not comfortably deduce from the text the appropriate ambig link. Please help. Thanks! Zue Jay ( talk) 06:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that Wikipedia needs at least a medical "stub" on the late Dr. Mark M. Ravitch, Professor of Surgery at Johns Hopkins, who wrote a book on this topic AND has been called "one of the founding fathers of modern pediatric surgery", though his application to Harvard Medical School was rejected. Instead, he attended Hopkins and became a celebrated professor of surery there, completing a surgical residency with the renowned Alfred Blalock.
He authored 453 papers, 101 book chapters, and 22 books. His pediatric surgical expertise was extensive (chest-wall deformities, genitalia, mechanical suturing).
He died in May, 1989.
Maynard S. Clark 16:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC) vegetarian
I support Ttintagel's recent edits to this article. Where words are replaced they are much more appropriate.
I have raised issues with some of these (removed) statements before:
and
are both highly inflammatory statements. There are many (many) references provided for this article, but the article is not encyclopedic in that it does not attribute the positions stated to the sources, or cite examples: instead it states that these things are authoritatively true. The article, as it stands, is not easily verifiable; the reader would have to consume the entire bibliography to figure out what reliable source (if any) holds which positions.
Furthermore, the article has style issues. There are several instances of non-encyclopedic tone, such as statements phrased as questions.
Finally, the references section is far, far too long: 1/3 of the article text (as already noted with {{ cleanup-references}}). The lengthy explanations provided there need to be incorporated into the article (if appropriate) or removed.
I look forward to working with all editors to improve this article. Cleduc 06:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
There should be a citation for the statement listing the most important findings of the studies discussed in the Outcomes and statistics section ("Perhaps the most striking findings from these reports are..."). It is important to know who made these conclusions (was it the study authors?) and also know who thinks that such conclusions are most important. BTW I am not trying to raise any neutrality issues here, just trying to improve article quality. Tomyhoi ( talk) 16:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
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If you have a question about the contents, please have the courtesy to ask here. I assure you I am not exaggerating the cultural context of the 70s. alteripse 01:59, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
DanP Your edits to the sections make it more bland and not as easy to understand the main points. What POV are you removing? Please go mess with other articles. alteripse 00:50, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Digging a bit deeper: who specifically says a group was constructing a culture of victimhood? Did the mentioned "patient advocacy groups" specifically state that as a goal, or is that someone else's interpretation of their actions? The point here is that the sentence states that this happened empirically, but not from whose point of view (I infer another point of view that this attitude arose out of larger societal forces and not by the actions of a specific group). The article would be better served to cite who (group, researcher, or person) draws this conclusion. Otherwise, I'm afraid it sounds like speculation (original research). Please note I'm not questioning accuracy, and I am not a subject matter expert -- I'm questioning sources, and point of view. Cleduc 23:01, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Groups like ISNA and academics like Fausto-Sterling taught intersex patients and the western public to see them as victims of medical treatment. It was one of the stated purposes of her articles and of organizations like those mentioned. You could describe it from a different pov of course. For example, These victims of the oppressive medical system that enforced society's heterosexual hegemony suffered in silent isolation until groups like ISNA connected them with each other, and raised their consciousness and political awareness. Heroic academics like FS championed their cause to the open-minded youth of the West, opening their eyes to the evil mutilations being perpetrated by the heterofascist and sadistic medical doctors... You may think I am exaggerating but I am not, and you can find examples of that kind of writing removed from various wikipedia articles. I am not making any of this up and the article describes all points of view; I did omit some of the more bizarre and ludicrous because the reality-oriented portion of isna advocacy was valuable and the organization has dissociated itself from some of the more preposterous claims (see their website). FS has admitted in print that her widely quoted statistics are very inaccurate and were basically invented by some undergraduates under her guidance trying to come up with the largest numbers possible for political advocacy purposes. (ref in the article I think-- if not I will put it in). The other article she is known for, in the NYAS magazine which she advocated social recognition of 5 sexes, has been repudiated by her and isna. It is hard to caricature some of these people because what they have actually published is so ridiculous. alteripse 21:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Well I have no evidence for explicitly calling them cynical. I assume the patient advocacy groups believed it just like the many of the people who leave impassioned but uniformed edits on this topic in wikipedia. What was striking was the ill-informed nature of much that was written with passion on this topic, even by academics. You can see examples in the intersexuality article regularly. The problem is that these are conditions that create unhappiness and problems for affected people and their families. Some of the surprising and distinctive aspects of the phenomenon were
I suppose I should rewrite and make some of these points more explicitly. It makes a good narrative but I was trying to describe all perspectives, not generate edit wars. alteripse 07:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
There's a disambig link to sex reassignment on this page. I read the (first) sentence in which it was contained and could not comfortably deduce from the text the appropriate ambig link. Please help. Thanks! Zue Jay ( talk) 06:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that Wikipedia needs at least a medical "stub" on the late Dr. Mark M. Ravitch, Professor of Surgery at Johns Hopkins, who wrote a book on this topic AND has been called "one of the founding fathers of modern pediatric surgery", though his application to Harvard Medical School was rejected. Instead, he attended Hopkins and became a celebrated professor of surery there, completing a surgical residency with the renowned Alfred Blalock.
He authored 453 papers, 101 book chapters, and 22 books. His pediatric surgical expertise was extensive (chest-wall deformities, genitalia, mechanical suturing).
He died in May, 1989.
Maynard S. Clark 16:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC) vegetarian
I support Ttintagel's recent edits to this article. Where words are replaced they are much more appropriate.
I have raised issues with some of these (removed) statements before:
and
are both highly inflammatory statements. There are many (many) references provided for this article, but the article is not encyclopedic in that it does not attribute the positions stated to the sources, or cite examples: instead it states that these things are authoritatively true. The article, as it stands, is not easily verifiable; the reader would have to consume the entire bibliography to figure out what reliable source (if any) holds which positions.
Furthermore, the article has style issues. There are several instances of non-encyclopedic tone, such as statements phrased as questions.
Finally, the references section is far, far too long: 1/3 of the article text (as already noted with {{ cleanup-references}}). The lengthy explanations provided there need to be incorporated into the article (if appropriate) or removed.
I look forward to working with all editors to improve this article. Cleduc 06:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
There should be a citation for the statement listing the most important findings of the studies discussed in the Outcomes and statistics section ("Perhaps the most striking findings from these reports are..."). It is important to know who made these conclusions (was it the study authors?) and also know who thinks that such conclusions are most important. BTW I am not trying to raise any neutrality issues here, just trying to improve article quality. Tomyhoi ( talk) 16:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
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