This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Where are you getting 1854-90 for Indian Wars? - Hephaestos 01:19, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I have big problems with this page. The title expresses a blatant POV, namely that every military action ever taken by the United States was "Imperialist" (whatever that means). We already have a page about the military history of the United States, and that seems to cover all the events mentioned on this page just fine. If anything, this page should be a redirect to the US military history, and nothing more. user:J.J.
On the other hand, people who live in other parts of the world find this sort of information very useful to have around. If you want to delete this page (for that is what turning it into a redirect to a page on a different topic amounts to) then list it in the ordinary way on VFD, and see if you can achieve a consensus. (BTW, I think the title sucks, but can't think of a better one at this moment.) Tannin 17:21, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Some advice for those who are working on this page:
It's an important subject and certainly ought to be dealt with here on the Wikipedia. In itself, this list of military interventions is highly informative. However, the title of the page sucks (imperialism is one of those taboo words that you just can't use if you want people to take you seriously - even when it is entirely appropriate). Something better is required. Secondly, it needs some top and tail. Why is this list significant? Who selected these particular events? What is the common thread that binds them all together? My advice to you (the people working on this page) is to sort these to problems out, or else be prepared to spend the rest of your lives defending this page's right to exist against those who like to pretend that none of this stuff ever happened. And anyway it was all an accident. Honest! Tannin
I don't quite understand why there's so much opposition to a page entitled history of US Imperialism when no one's said a word about Spanish Empire, Portuguese Empire, or British Empire. Part of being NPOV means not letting national feeling interfere with judgement. Although I admit that there is an intrinsic POV element in the idea of a History of US Imperialism, doesn't the fact that many (most?) people across the globe view us as imperalist warrant some sort of explanation/historical background? As the year progresses I'll be working on this article slowly; maybe when it's more developed you'll be able to see exactly what sort of content I'm aiming for. All I ask is that you keep an open mind. -- Alex S 14:50, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I'm not creating this page because it's my "personal view," I'm creating it to give a sense of historical background to a view that many people (especially outside the US) share. I'm not trying to prove that the US is or was an imperialist power, I'm just laying out the arguments for those who believe so and the arguments against such a conception. There's nothing inherently non-NPOV about opinions and arguments, as long as they're presented as such. That's what I'm doing. -- Alex S 04:27, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Don't you know anything about history? The British dreamed about acquiring the land for the Cape-to-Cairo railway for decades, all very much in public, and they were very forthright about their superiority, the need to "civilize" the locals, the need to forestall competition from other European countries, and so forth. They were very proud of their empire - for instance Canada printed the slogan "we hold a vaster empire than has been" on its Christmas stamp of 1898, the slogan itself being from a poem composed for Victoria's jubilee in 1887. By comparison, it took years of drum-beating about Spanish misdeeds, some sleight-of-hand by Teddy R., and further drum-beating after the explosion of the Maine just to get public support for a war with Spain, support which turned back to indifference in a couple years. US imperialism is a serious subject that deserves to be treated seriously, not as list of superficial bullet points. Stan 17:25, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I agree, this Vietnam / Iraq / Afghanistan stuff is total crap, and simply has no place on this page. An encyclopedia is not a place where people put down their wacky conspiracy theories and try to pass them off as fact. I mean, it's like putting "some people consider the Israeli Government to be the secret puppet-masters of the world. Of course they deny this but how do we know for sure!?! " on the Israel page. It's nonsense. I'm deleting it, and this time I hope it will stay deleted. user:J.J.
Another pathetic and amateurish thing about this article is that it completely overlooks the actions of the US in Latin America in the early part of this century, even though many of those actions are described in detail in the WP articles about the Navy ships that took part. Those actions are much more clearly imperialistic, but of course they're not front page news anymore, so it takes some actual research to learn about them. Stan 17:06, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Just one more comment; we shouldn't be making up our own stuff and throwing it around, we should be quoting from authorities, whether it be polls ("30% of Germans think the US is imperialist") or sources (for instance, one of my books quotes an 1890s-era Washington Post editorial opining that empire was a strange idea to Americans, but perhaps necessary), or books - there are certainly lots of those to choose from. No sentence without an authority to back it up! Stan 20:51, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I agree, but clearly since this is going to be a page that develops gradually, be patient about a ton of facts and figures at first. -- Alex S 12:40, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Interesting sidenote: On the United States of America page, there is a section entitled "Colonial Interests," which begins: "The United States has held the following countries as colonies or de facto colonies at various times..." Yet nobody protested the existance of such a section. I think a lot of the complaints about this page are based on context rather than actual historical disagreements. -- Alex S 05:13, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think I have made a fairly acceptable intro to the post WW2 accusations of American imperialism. I think it is important to portray these accusations as accusations, and make it clear that they are disputed, and not universially agreed upon. - user:J.J.
Maybe status quo was not the right term. I just meant that allegations of American "Imperialism" are stronger if the US can be proven to have actively sought a radical change to the country, like by overthrowing the president or something. But you make a good point.
Should The Kingdom of Hawaii became a republic in 1894 and in 1989 Hawaiian President Sanford Dole agreed to his nation's annexation by the United States. The republic ended in 1900 and the country became a territory of the US. read ... and in 1899 Hawaiian President ...? Kesuari 11.26 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- SimonP 22:27, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC)
Ugh. More back and forward normative debates. More moral judgments and catch-phrase throwing. This might as well be Hannity and Colmes on Fox News. While AlexS has been doing some serious work, this article isn't going to work out on Wiki. It's just going to become more of a breeding ground for partisan trolling and posturing. On one hand, you'll have a forum for Anti-Americanism, and, on the other, you'll have to deal with J.J.'s personal essays and rationalizations. The only way to create an atmosphere conductive to some real historical writing on the subject is to redirect it to a new article on the diplomatic and military history of the United States. If anyone wants to do so, I can recommend scores of sources with ISBN numbers. I can also provide links to articles online if users want to get the new article done fairly quickly. 172 01:53, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
maybe a "the neutrality of this article is disputed" is called for? based on this talk page at least... jengod 22:58, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)
The following isn't pretty or perfect, but it's better than the current title:
United States Policies Viewed as Imperialism
the inclusion of the history of such policies is clearly implied, I think. I'm new, and can't quite read whether there is a consensus regarding the original title, so I hesitate to edit it myself. But I do recommend someone second this motion and do so...
The title is fine (not my choice for an article entry, though), but I understand why some users are suspicious. When familiar only with the popular usage of "imperialism," general readers and students often use this term without knowing what it means. They assume that it is a pejorative term.
However, in diplomatic and military history, "imperialism" is a standard, value-neutral term. It merely refers to influence by nations or peoples over weaker nations or peoples. Dating from antiquity, imperialism has taken many forms. Thus, general readers often conflate imperialism and colonialism, which is properly used in a more restrictive sense.
Colonialism entails formal political control involving territorial annexation. Imperialism can be exercised formally or informally, directly or indirectly, politically or economically. One can say that colonialism is a form of imperialism, but not vice versa.
Having observed so many ridiculous, protracted edit wars stemming from the failure to understand standard, encyclopedic definitions, I would not have created this article. Given the likelihood of conflicts and misunderstanding on Wiki, a broader focus on the Military and diplomatic history of the United States, IMHO, would have worked out better. But you already have too much work here to change the title. Without a substantial rewrite, no other title is appropriate. While the title is going to raise eyebrows occasionally, it is not a violation of NPOV policies so long as the article stays on focus. 172 11:37, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I haven't added any content to this article (other than removing some irrelevant tangents). Nor was this my choice for an article. If users don't know the definition of the term, you can edit the article and add it to the intro. A word may be widely confused, but it's fine so long as this article uses properly. 172 03:08, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Where are you getting 1854-90 for Indian Wars? - Hephaestos 01:19, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I have big problems with this page. The title expresses a blatant POV, namely that every military action ever taken by the United States was "Imperialist" (whatever that means). We already have a page about the military history of the United States, and that seems to cover all the events mentioned on this page just fine. If anything, this page should be a redirect to the US military history, and nothing more. user:J.J.
On the other hand, people who live in other parts of the world find this sort of information very useful to have around. If you want to delete this page (for that is what turning it into a redirect to a page on a different topic amounts to) then list it in the ordinary way on VFD, and see if you can achieve a consensus. (BTW, I think the title sucks, but can't think of a better one at this moment.) Tannin 17:21, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Some advice for those who are working on this page:
It's an important subject and certainly ought to be dealt with here on the Wikipedia. In itself, this list of military interventions is highly informative. However, the title of the page sucks (imperialism is one of those taboo words that you just can't use if you want people to take you seriously - even when it is entirely appropriate). Something better is required. Secondly, it needs some top and tail. Why is this list significant? Who selected these particular events? What is the common thread that binds them all together? My advice to you (the people working on this page) is to sort these to problems out, or else be prepared to spend the rest of your lives defending this page's right to exist against those who like to pretend that none of this stuff ever happened. And anyway it was all an accident. Honest! Tannin
I don't quite understand why there's so much opposition to a page entitled history of US Imperialism when no one's said a word about Spanish Empire, Portuguese Empire, or British Empire. Part of being NPOV means not letting national feeling interfere with judgement. Although I admit that there is an intrinsic POV element in the idea of a History of US Imperialism, doesn't the fact that many (most?) people across the globe view us as imperalist warrant some sort of explanation/historical background? As the year progresses I'll be working on this article slowly; maybe when it's more developed you'll be able to see exactly what sort of content I'm aiming for. All I ask is that you keep an open mind. -- Alex S 14:50, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I'm not creating this page because it's my "personal view," I'm creating it to give a sense of historical background to a view that many people (especially outside the US) share. I'm not trying to prove that the US is or was an imperialist power, I'm just laying out the arguments for those who believe so and the arguments against such a conception. There's nothing inherently non-NPOV about opinions and arguments, as long as they're presented as such. That's what I'm doing. -- Alex S 04:27, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Don't you know anything about history? The British dreamed about acquiring the land for the Cape-to-Cairo railway for decades, all very much in public, and they were very forthright about their superiority, the need to "civilize" the locals, the need to forestall competition from other European countries, and so forth. They were very proud of their empire - for instance Canada printed the slogan "we hold a vaster empire than has been" on its Christmas stamp of 1898, the slogan itself being from a poem composed for Victoria's jubilee in 1887. By comparison, it took years of drum-beating about Spanish misdeeds, some sleight-of-hand by Teddy R., and further drum-beating after the explosion of the Maine just to get public support for a war with Spain, support which turned back to indifference in a couple years. US imperialism is a serious subject that deserves to be treated seriously, not as list of superficial bullet points. Stan 17:25, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I agree, this Vietnam / Iraq / Afghanistan stuff is total crap, and simply has no place on this page. An encyclopedia is not a place where people put down their wacky conspiracy theories and try to pass them off as fact. I mean, it's like putting "some people consider the Israeli Government to be the secret puppet-masters of the world. Of course they deny this but how do we know for sure!?! " on the Israel page. It's nonsense. I'm deleting it, and this time I hope it will stay deleted. user:J.J.
Another pathetic and amateurish thing about this article is that it completely overlooks the actions of the US in Latin America in the early part of this century, even though many of those actions are described in detail in the WP articles about the Navy ships that took part. Those actions are much more clearly imperialistic, but of course they're not front page news anymore, so it takes some actual research to learn about them. Stan 17:06, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Just one more comment; we shouldn't be making up our own stuff and throwing it around, we should be quoting from authorities, whether it be polls ("30% of Germans think the US is imperialist") or sources (for instance, one of my books quotes an 1890s-era Washington Post editorial opining that empire was a strange idea to Americans, but perhaps necessary), or books - there are certainly lots of those to choose from. No sentence without an authority to back it up! Stan 20:51, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I agree, but clearly since this is going to be a page that develops gradually, be patient about a ton of facts and figures at first. -- Alex S 12:40, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Interesting sidenote: On the United States of America page, there is a section entitled "Colonial Interests," which begins: "The United States has held the following countries as colonies or de facto colonies at various times..." Yet nobody protested the existance of such a section. I think a lot of the complaints about this page are based on context rather than actual historical disagreements. -- Alex S 05:13, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think I have made a fairly acceptable intro to the post WW2 accusations of American imperialism. I think it is important to portray these accusations as accusations, and make it clear that they are disputed, and not universially agreed upon. - user:J.J.
Maybe status quo was not the right term. I just meant that allegations of American "Imperialism" are stronger if the US can be proven to have actively sought a radical change to the country, like by overthrowing the president or something. But you make a good point.
Should The Kingdom of Hawaii became a republic in 1894 and in 1989 Hawaiian President Sanford Dole agreed to his nation's annexation by the United States. The republic ended in 1900 and the country became a territory of the US. read ... and in 1899 Hawaiian President ...? Kesuari 11.26 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- SimonP 22:27, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC)
Ugh. More back and forward normative debates. More moral judgments and catch-phrase throwing. This might as well be Hannity and Colmes on Fox News. While AlexS has been doing some serious work, this article isn't going to work out on Wiki. It's just going to become more of a breeding ground for partisan trolling and posturing. On one hand, you'll have a forum for Anti-Americanism, and, on the other, you'll have to deal with J.J.'s personal essays and rationalizations. The only way to create an atmosphere conductive to some real historical writing on the subject is to redirect it to a new article on the diplomatic and military history of the United States. If anyone wants to do so, I can recommend scores of sources with ISBN numbers. I can also provide links to articles online if users want to get the new article done fairly quickly. 172 01:53, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
maybe a "the neutrality of this article is disputed" is called for? based on this talk page at least... jengod 22:58, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)
The following isn't pretty or perfect, but it's better than the current title:
United States Policies Viewed as Imperialism
the inclusion of the history of such policies is clearly implied, I think. I'm new, and can't quite read whether there is a consensus regarding the original title, so I hesitate to edit it myself. But I do recommend someone second this motion and do so...
The title is fine (not my choice for an article entry, though), but I understand why some users are suspicious. When familiar only with the popular usage of "imperialism," general readers and students often use this term without knowing what it means. They assume that it is a pejorative term.
However, in diplomatic and military history, "imperialism" is a standard, value-neutral term. It merely refers to influence by nations or peoples over weaker nations or peoples. Dating from antiquity, imperialism has taken many forms. Thus, general readers often conflate imperialism and colonialism, which is properly used in a more restrictive sense.
Colonialism entails formal political control involving territorial annexation. Imperialism can be exercised formally or informally, directly or indirectly, politically or economically. One can say that colonialism is a form of imperialism, but not vice versa.
Having observed so many ridiculous, protracted edit wars stemming from the failure to understand standard, encyclopedic definitions, I would not have created this article. Given the likelihood of conflicts and misunderstanding on Wiki, a broader focus on the Military and diplomatic history of the United States, IMHO, would have worked out better. But you already have too much work here to change the title. Without a substantial rewrite, no other title is appropriate. While the title is going to raise eyebrows occasionally, it is not a violation of NPOV policies so long as the article stays on focus. 172 11:37, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I haven't added any content to this article (other than removing some irrelevant tangents). Nor was this my choice for an article. If users don't know the definition of the term, you can edit the article and add it to the intro. A word may be widely confused, but it's fine so long as this article uses properly. 172 03:08, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)