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I find it ironic that someone, who wrote a nice article on forceful conversion to Orthodoxy of the Kholm Governorate should be reverting a statement describing discrimination and persecution of Catholic Ukrainians in that area. Even though sources from Russian orthodox church site Iith respect to the persecutions, a solution might be to qualify the referenced statement - "according to..." and then include the info on persecutions. However this brings up another problem with the particular reference. The info doesn't come from, say, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's website but from one parish's web page. Adding "according to St. Mary's Church in Winnipeg persecutions etc. occurred" isn't right.
Since this article has seen quite an input from numerous users a suggestion to upgrade it to class A or GA? Can people identify which parts need to be worked on to achieve this? -- Kuban Cossack ( По-балакаем?) 16:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
According to the most recent independent survey of the Ukrainian population, one conducted in June and July of 2007 by the Ukrainian Sociological Service, Ukrainians identified their own church affiliation as follows:
That is, in this survey 32.4% of the Ukrainian population, or roughly 14 million people, identify themselves as members of the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarch (UOC-KP), while only 20.9%, or about 9 million, claim to be members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate, or UOC-MP).
The CIA World Factbook provides the following figures for religious affiliation in Ukraine:
While there have been fluctuations over the years, I am personally not aware of a single, independent survey of the Ukrainian population subsequent to 1997 which would indicate that the UOC-MP is larger than the UOC-KP. For example, in analyzing an earlier set of surveys, historian Andrew Wilson writes, in "The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation" (Yale University Press, 2002: pp 236-237):
"...According to the largest and most comprehensive poll undertaken in 1997, 65.7% of the sample considered themselves believers, and of these 62.5% expressed an allegiance to particular Church. Of the latter, 12.3% declared themselves supporters of the UOC-MP and a further 11.6% claimed to belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, although technically it no longer exists in Ukraine (its supporters can basically be grouped with those of the Moscow Patriarchate). An impressive 43% named the UOC-KP, and only 4% the Autocephalous Orthodox. Greek Catholics accounted for 14.3%, concentrated overwhelmingly in the western regions of Galicia and Transcarpathia."
According to Dr. Wilson's footnotes, the above figures are from a 1997 Socis-Gallup poll. Dr. Wilson adds, on page 361:
"According to another Sosis-Gallup poll in February 1998, 41% claimed no religion, 20.4% backed the UOC-KP, 7.5% the UOC-MP, 1.8% the UAOC and 6.3% the Greek Catholics..."
The fact that, despite the availability of objective data such as the above, the Moscow Patriarchate continues to claim to represent almost
70% of the Ukrainian population, would suggest that the claims provided by Moscow are extremely doubtful.
Bandurist ( talk) 16:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Makes sense. It is better to get some sense of re opinions before making changes that have a tendency of escalating matters.22:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Currently in the article we have UOC MP before UOC KP. This gives a distorted picture. Currently the UOC KP has more parishioners. I am calling a vote in order to see opinions regarding placement of UOC KP before UOC MP in the Lead.
Yes, there is a large part of people who do not identify with either Patriarchate, but there is no reason to assume that they would be divided any differently than those who do make a distinction. I think that in this kind of situation, their impartiality eliminates them from the decision-making process. We should focus on the facts that are clear - of the people who do choose a Patriarchate, more support the Kyiv Patriarchate, therefore that should be stated first.
Also, all other statistics being equal, alphabetically Kyiv is before Moscow, so it should come first. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I think that this article can be good or featured just with more references. -- Vojvodae ist 14:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I apologize if it is innapropriate to start a subheading for this discussion, but I wished to address some of the points raised by Faustian in the voting section in a greater detail than I thought appropriate at that place. First, I will address the questions regarding the survey data.
1. Regarding the survey commissioned by the UGCC, while I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the UGCC or the professional ability of the Ukrainian Sociological Survey, this survey is unusual in that, at the request of the UGCC, the choices given were "Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate" or "Ukrainian Orthodox Church"; "Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate)" was not an option. I believe that it can be inferred from this, if considered in comparison with other surveys, is that there are Ukrainians who would consider themselves followers of THE "Ukrainian Orthodox Church", but not of the "Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate". I suspect that the UGCC simply wanted to be cautiously respectful to the UOC(MP) and used their legal name. While I see nothing wrong with discussing this, or citing it, as long the difference is noted, I do not think this survey would fall in the category of "independent" surveys cited by Bandurist, as the UGCC had too much input in designing this question.
2. In any survey of religious self-profession, there will be a larger number of "nones" if the survey uses a two-step process (asking first if the people belong to a certain church, and then asking which church) then with a one-step process (just asking people which church, possibly with "none of the above" or "other" as alternatives). This is true everywhere, and not unique to Ukraine. Dr. Brian Grim of the Pew Forum published an example showing how, in Bulgaria, the number of 'nones' were more than 7 times higher when using a two step survey process compared with a one step process, among the exact same population. The fact that many people will, in some surveys, give an answer like "Orthodox of no jurisdiction" does not mean that the relative size data is not accurate.
Regarding ranking church strength based on number of registered parishes or clergy, there are a number of flaws which would seem to make this inherently unreliable. For example:
1. The allocation of church buildings in Ukraine is decided in the first instance by local authorities, and is therefore subject to influence outside of the local congregations. For example, in a case decided on June 14, 2007 and cited in the U.S. State Department's International Religious Freedom Report (2007), the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the Kyiv city administration was violating the rights of the faithful of the Svyato-Mykhaylivska parish by not allowing them to reregister from the UOC-MP to the UOC-KP. That is, the faithful of that parish overwhelmingly wish to be a part of the UOC-KP, but the civil authorities force their church (and its priest) to remain in the UOC-MP. In fact, even though a survey in December of 2006 showed that 52% of the adults in Kyiv suported the Kyivan Patriarchate, compared to only 8% for the Moscow Patriarchate, the Kyiv City Council that same year granted Moscow title to 10 churches and only 1 to the Kyivan Patriarchate. There is evidence here and elsewhere that the number of faithful does not, at least in places, correlate with the number of parishes.
2. Legally, all that is required to register a parish in Ukraine are the signatures of 10 adult citizens. There is therefore clearly at least an opportunity to inflate the number of parishes by registering "paper parishes".
3. As elsewhere in the world, parishes vary in size and commitment. I believe that there are actually more registered Protestant parishes and clergy than for the UGCC, yet I do not believe that anyone would claim that there are more Protestant faithful than Greek Catholic in Ukraine.
4. In terms of possession of buildings and clergy, the UOC-MP in most places became the 'de facto' inheritor of the Russian Orthodox Church, which was the only church legally tolerated throughout most of the Soviet Era.
Given the inherent problems with basing church strength on a secondary figure like number of parishes or clergy, and given the consistency of multiple sets of scientific survey data, there seems to be no clear reason to consider using parish size or number of clergy as an exception in this case. Qe2 ( talk) 16:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
How about something like this, with citations for all data and quotes, in the "Modern Times" section:
Qe2 ( talk) 15:29, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent) Hello, I think that we are getting too much into this voting - I believe that it was about which church should be stated first in the lead. I think that the case has been made for mentioning the Kyiv Patriarchate first, if only because the majority of decided parishoners go to the Kyiv Patriarchate church. Can we at least agree on the lead? Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 11:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
The "Post Soviet Period" section of this article seems to require a great deal of work. Would it help if we could here create an outline of the events that should be included? From my perspective, notable ommissions are (1) the establishment of the UAOC in 1990 and its election of Mystyslav as the first Patriarch of Kyiv, (2) the November 1-3 1991 All Ukraine Sobor of the UOC which unanimously called for the autocephaly of the UOC, and (3) the 1992 Unification Sobor which created the UOC-KP from portions of the UOC and UAOC. Qe2 ( talk) 16:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I have just discovered the article Religion_in_Ukraine, which seems to overlap the Modern Times section of this article. Should we consider these together? Qe2 ( talk) 13:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
In the weblink section there is also one to Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Canonical, but this church isn't mentioned in the text at all. The article sounds very strange, like exaggerated advocacy for a small group, so the real circumstances and importance should be clarified here. -- Ikar.us ( talk) 18:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Is this article ready for FA voting?-- Vojvodae please be free to write :) 17:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure) Simplexity22 ( talk) 13:47, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
History of Christianity in Ukraine →
Christianity in Ukraine –
WP:CONCISE. No such article. Should be available first, before any eventual separate history article is needed.
PPEMES (
talk) 09:50, 16 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
b
uidh
e
05:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Can someone draw me a diagram of the splits and mergers of the Ukrainian Church? All these recent changes are getting hard to follow. Thanks.
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
Ukrainian Orthodox Church and has thus listed it
for discussion. This discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 6#Ukrainian Orthodox Church until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Heanor (
talk)
19:52, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ukrainian Orthodox Church (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
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I find it ironic that someone, who wrote a nice article on forceful conversion to Orthodoxy of the Kholm Governorate should be reverting a statement describing discrimination and persecution of Catholic Ukrainians in that area. Even though sources from Russian orthodox church site Iith respect to the persecutions, a solution might be to qualify the referenced statement - "according to..." and then include the info on persecutions. However this brings up another problem with the particular reference. The info doesn't come from, say, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's website but from one parish's web page. Adding "according to St. Mary's Church in Winnipeg persecutions etc. occurred" isn't right.
Since this article has seen quite an input from numerous users a suggestion to upgrade it to class A or GA? Can people identify which parts need to be worked on to achieve this? -- Kuban Cossack ( По-балакаем?) 16:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
According to the most recent independent survey of the Ukrainian population, one conducted in June and July of 2007 by the Ukrainian Sociological Service, Ukrainians identified their own church affiliation as follows:
That is, in this survey 32.4% of the Ukrainian population, or roughly 14 million people, identify themselves as members of the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarch (UOC-KP), while only 20.9%, or about 9 million, claim to be members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate, or UOC-MP).
The CIA World Factbook provides the following figures for religious affiliation in Ukraine:
While there have been fluctuations over the years, I am personally not aware of a single, independent survey of the Ukrainian population subsequent to 1997 which would indicate that the UOC-MP is larger than the UOC-KP. For example, in analyzing an earlier set of surveys, historian Andrew Wilson writes, in "The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation" (Yale University Press, 2002: pp 236-237):
"...According to the largest and most comprehensive poll undertaken in 1997, 65.7% of the sample considered themselves believers, and of these 62.5% expressed an allegiance to particular Church. Of the latter, 12.3% declared themselves supporters of the UOC-MP and a further 11.6% claimed to belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, although technically it no longer exists in Ukraine (its supporters can basically be grouped with those of the Moscow Patriarchate). An impressive 43% named the UOC-KP, and only 4% the Autocephalous Orthodox. Greek Catholics accounted for 14.3%, concentrated overwhelmingly in the western regions of Galicia and Transcarpathia."
According to Dr. Wilson's footnotes, the above figures are from a 1997 Socis-Gallup poll. Dr. Wilson adds, on page 361:
"According to another Sosis-Gallup poll in February 1998, 41% claimed no religion, 20.4% backed the UOC-KP, 7.5% the UOC-MP, 1.8% the UAOC and 6.3% the Greek Catholics..."
The fact that, despite the availability of objective data such as the above, the Moscow Patriarchate continues to claim to represent almost
70% of the Ukrainian population, would suggest that the claims provided by Moscow are extremely doubtful.
Bandurist ( talk) 16:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Makes sense. It is better to get some sense of re opinions before making changes that have a tendency of escalating matters.22:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Currently in the article we have UOC MP before UOC KP. This gives a distorted picture. Currently the UOC KP has more parishioners. I am calling a vote in order to see opinions regarding placement of UOC KP before UOC MP in the Lead.
Yes, there is a large part of people who do not identify with either Patriarchate, but there is no reason to assume that they would be divided any differently than those who do make a distinction. I think that in this kind of situation, their impartiality eliminates them from the decision-making process. We should focus on the facts that are clear - of the people who do choose a Patriarchate, more support the Kyiv Patriarchate, therefore that should be stated first.
Also, all other statistics being equal, alphabetically Kyiv is before Moscow, so it should come first. Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 09:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I think that this article can be good or featured just with more references. -- Vojvodae ist 14:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I apologize if it is innapropriate to start a subheading for this discussion, but I wished to address some of the points raised by Faustian in the voting section in a greater detail than I thought appropriate at that place. First, I will address the questions regarding the survey data.
1. Regarding the survey commissioned by the UGCC, while I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the UGCC or the professional ability of the Ukrainian Sociological Survey, this survey is unusual in that, at the request of the UGCC, the choices given were "Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate" or "Ukrainian Orthodox Church"; "Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate)" was not an option. I believe that it can be inferred from this, if considered in comparison with other surveys, is that there are Ukrainians who would consider themselves followers of THE "Ukrainian Orthodox Church", but not of the "Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate". I suspect that the UGCC simply wanted to be cautiously respectful to the UOC(MP) and used their legal name. While I see nothing wrong with discussing this, or citing it, as long the difference is noted, I do not think this survey would fall in the category of "independent" surveys cited by Bandurist, as the UGCC had too much input in designing this question.
2. In any survey of religious self-profession, there will be a larger number of "nones" if the survey uses a two-step process (asking first if the people belong to a certain church, and then asking which church) then with a one-step process (just asking people which church, possibly with "none of the above" or "other" as alternatives). This is true everywhere, and not unique to Ukraine. Dr. Brian Grim of the Pew Forum published an example showing how, in Bulgaria, the number of 'nones' were more than 7 times higher when using a two step survey process compared with a one step process, among the exact same population. The fact that many people will, in some surveys, give an answer like "Orthodox of no jurisdiction" does not mean that the relative size data is not accurate.
Regarding ranking church strength based on number of registered parishes or clergy, there are a number of flaws which would seem to make this inherently unreliable. For example:
1. The allocation of church buildings in Ukraine is decided in the first instance by local authorities, and is therefore subject to influence outside of the local congregations. For example, in a case decided on June 14, 2007 and cited in the U.S. State Department's International Religious Freedom Report (2007), the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the Kyiv city administration was violating the rights of the faithful of the Svyato-Mykhaylivska parish by not allowing them to reregister from the UOC-MP to the UOC-KP. That is, the faithful of that parish overwhelmingly wish to be a part of the UOC-KP, but the civil authorities force their church (and its priest) to remain in the UOC-MP. In fact, even though a survey in December of 2006 showed that 52% of the adults in Kyiv suported the Kyivan Patriarchate, compared to only 8% for the Moscow Patriarchate, the Kyiv City Council that same year granted Moscow title to 10 churches and only 1 to the Kyivan Patriarchate. There is evidence here and elsewhere that the number of faithful does not, at least in places, correlate with the number of parishes.
2. Legally, all that is required to register a parish in Ukraine are the signatures of 10 adult citizens. There is therefore clearly at least an opportunity to inflate the number of parishes by registering "paper parishes".
3. As elsewhere in the world, parishes vary in size and commitment. I believe that there are actually more registered Protestant parishes and clergy than for the UGCC, yet I do not believe that anyone would claim that there are more Protestant faithful than Greek Catholic in Ukraine.
4. In terms of possession of buildings and clergy, the UOC-MP in most places became the 'de facto' inheritor of the Russian Orthodox Church, which was the only church legally tolerated throughout most of the Soviet Era.
Given the inherent problems with basing church strength on a secondary figure like number of parishes or clergy, and given the consistency of multiple sets of scientific survey data, there seems to be no clear reason to consider using parish size or number of clergy as an exception in this case. Qe2 ( talk) 16:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
How about something like this, with citations for all data and quotes, in the "Modern Times" section:
Qe2 ( talk) 15:29, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent) Hello, I think that we are getting too much into this voting - I believe that it was about which church should be stated first in the lead. I think that the case has been made for mentioning the Kyiv Patriarchate first, if only because the majority of decided parishoners go to the Kyiv Patriarchate church. Can we at least agree on the lead? Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 11:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
The "Post Soviet Period" section of this article seems to require a great deal of work. Would it help if we could here create an outline of the events that should be included? From my perspective, notable ommissions are (1) the establishment of the UAOC in 1990 and its election of Mystyslav as the first Patriarch of Kyiv, (2) the November 1-3 1991 All Ukraine Sobor of the UOC which unanimously called for the autocephaly of the UOC, and (3) the 1992 Unification Sobor which created the UOC-KP from portions of the UOC and UAOC. Qe2 ( talk) 16:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I have just discovered the article Religion_in_Ukraine, which seems to overlap the Modern Times section of this article. Should we consider these together? Qe2 ( talk) 13:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
In the weblink section there is also one to Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Canonical, but this church isn't mentioned in the text at all. The article sounds very strange, like exaggerated advocacy for a small group, so the real circumstances and importance should be clarified here. -- Ikar.us ( talk) 18:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Is this article ready for FA voting?-- Vojvodae please be free to write :) 17:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on History of Christianity in Ukraine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure) Simplexity22 ( talk) 13:47, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
History of Christianity in Ukraine →
Christianity in Ukraine –
WP:CONCISE. No such article. Should be available first, before any eventual separate history article is needed.
PPEMES (
talk) 09:50, 16 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
b
uidh
e
05:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Can someone draw me a diagram of the splits and mergers of the Ukrainian Church? All these recent changes are getting hard to follow. Thanks.
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
Ukrainian Orthodox Church and has thus listed it
for discussion. This discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 6#Ukrainian Orthodox Church until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Heanor (
talk)
19:52, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ukrainian Orthodox Church (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)