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Either this article is mislabelled, or it needs more work. At the time of this comment, all it contains are various personages who have been suggested as either the basis of the Arthurian legend or have been identified with Arthur. (This is not to say this information should be removed; it is important in its own right.)
What this article should address is the following:
As a result, the theories about the historical Arthur boil down to these:
(The last option IMHO, is the least likely, but many naively hold to it.)
This subject is a very complex one, & I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few flamewars over ths article before it becomes worth nominating as a Featured Article. -- llywrch 18:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Llywrch, your arguments seem to be the result of a good research of the subject. Perhaps they could form the basis of an article similar in intent to Historicity of Jesus. Presenting arguments for and against the existance of an at least semi-legendary figure.
But I hope you will find some time to address some counter-arguments.
1)The given period ( 480 - 540) is indeed not among the best documented periods of European history. But not exactly a "dark age". As it includes the reigns of at least two celebrated rulers: Clovis I (reigned 481 - 511) and Justinian I (reigned 527 - 565).
2)The "contemporary" would-be sources Gildas and Procopius are somewhat problematic:
His reference is not unlike Nick Mason or Bob Marley referencing their own births occuring on the same year/s as the Battle of the Bulge. A passing reference with no detail.
Vortigern Studies] gives the translated text as follows:
"From that time on now the citizens, now the enemy, were victorious ... right up until the year of the siege of Badon Hill, almost the last, not the least, slaughter of the villains, and this the forty-fourth year begins (as I know) with one month already elapsed, which is also [that] of my birth."
Vortigern Studies] gives the translated text as follows: "Three very populous nations inhabit the Island of Brittia, and one king is set over each of them. And the names of these nations are Angles, Frisians, and Britons who have the same name as the island. So great apparently is the multitude of these peoples that every year in large groups they migrate from there with their women and children and go to the Franks. And they [the Franks] are settling them in what seems to be the more desolate part of their land, and as a result of this they say they are gaining possession of the island. So that not long ago the king of the Franks actually sent some of his friends to the Emperor Justinian in Byzantium, and despatched with them the men of the Angles, claiming that this island [Britain], too, is ruled by him. Such then are the matters concerning the island called Brittia."
Neither author sets to detail the history of Britain during this period. And Procopius gets the name wrong.
3)The texts interpritated as historical evidence of Arthur indeed date from at least two centuries after his supposed death. But the same probably is true about Hengest and Horsa. This does not proove the texts to be completely false but cast doubt on their accuracy.
4)One could argue that few works of ancient and medieval history were written with the intent to "document events accurately".
Herodotus was often unsure of the actual course of events and resolved to offer competing versions for them, presenting his own conclusions at the end. He lists as historical figures Io and Europa. His dialogues between Solon and Croesus seem to be instructions on morality and happiness. Not unlike the intentions of Plutarch. And several tales were apparently included for the sake of entertainment.
Thucydides and Suetonius feature "heroes" in the forms of cunning politicians such as Pericles and Caesar Augustus.
Court historians such as Manetho, Eusebius of Caesarea and Procopius tend to read as propaganda.
Unbiased presentation of events seems a rather modern goal for historians.
5) Actually the theories may not be mutualy exclusive. The complex traditions included in the Matter of Britain may equally contain historical traditions, forgeries by nobles claiming descent from figures such as Bors and Morgan le Fay, religious tales of paganism and Christianity alike and naturally the fictions of such worthies as Geoffrey of Monmouth and Thomas Malory. Arthur may be a composite figure rather than a singular historical or fictional character.
6)Who does seriously believe that any of the romance writers accurately depicted 6th century Britain? User: Dimadick
Comments: Apart from that Joseph of Arimathea myth, what links Glastonbury in any way, shape or form to Avalon before the advent of the Plantagenets' propaganda machine? I doubt there's much that can be described as definitive.
Do we also need to mention all later additions (like the Grail) that distract from the earlier elements which are closer to being genuine; it's an article on the HISTORICITY of Arthur.
The bit about Merlin mentions Myrddin Emrys but dates both Merlins to well after the Arthurian period. This ignores the identification of Emrys with Ambrosius.
I'm very much in agreement with llywrch. This article should give an account of the various sources for Arthur, and then deconstruct each of them. I don't see a problem keeping all the "might have beens", but if this is an article on historicity it should focus on the sources. Harthacanute 23:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"The location of Riothamus’s army was betrayed to the Visigoths by the jealous Praetorian Prefect of Gaul, and Euric defeated him in a battle in Burgundy. Riothamus was last seen retreating near a town called Avallon"
Praetorian prefect? I was under the impression that the Praetorians were disbanded in the 4th century. Fred26 20:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I am currently rewriting Áedán mac Gabráin, so I have perused Zeigler's article on Artuir, which struck me being built on rather shaky foundations, but the sections in this article would be improved by following Zeigler. I have also changed to the "normal" orthography for their names, as above. The variants "mac Gabran" and "mac A(ei)dan" are barbarisms, but Artuir is more debatable: if editors prefer Artur then that is a perfectly acceptable form. The date of Artuir mac Áedáin's death is uncertain, but the one source which gives it - the Annals of Tigernach - has 594: "Iugulacio filiorum Aedan .i. Bran & Domungort & Eochaid Fínd & Artur ...". Artuir is also mentioned by Adomnán and is given as a son of Áedán in the Senchus fer n-Alban. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I wrote this piece before noticing that there was another piece below dealing with the same figure! D'oh! Anyway you can make use of it as you feel fit....all the information is from the the Legend of King Arthur website and Michael Wood's In Search of Myths and Heroes.
The key problem with identifying a historical Arthur is the date and the name. It is generally agreed that all the early sources date the historical Arthur to a time after the end of the British Roman Empire, and before the Angles and the Saxons stabilised their power and begain what is now known as Anglo-Saxon Britain: i.e a period between the 4th and the 6th century. The key problem, thereofore, is that there is only one historical figure (noted in contemporary historical documents) who has the name Arthur (as the name would have been written at the time: Artuir). This is Artuir, the eldest son of Aedan mac Gabrain, King of Dalriada which was a Scottish Gaelic speaking (but probably Christian) Kingdom "between the walls" i.e. located between the Antonine Wall and Hadrian's Wall. This tribe was most active between the end of the 6th century BC and the beginning of the 7th century BC.
Interestingly, this is the same part of Britain that the earliest records of Myrddin (now known as Merlin come from). Moreover, the very earliest references to Arthur's last battle describe it as being at Camlann. Assuming that this is not simply an invented name (and this is of course a possibility) this has been tentatively identified as Camboglanna near Hadrian's Wall. There is also some even more tentative evidence showing that this historical Arthur may have had a sister named Morgen (who became Morgan Le Fay), and even, perhaps, a wife whose name was etymologically related to Guinevere.
The disadvantage of this theory is that one loses almost all the legend. This Arthur did not die fighting the Angles or the Saxons but the Picts. Nor was he King (or even leader) of the Britains: Dalriada was a small Kingdom even by the standards of the day. On the other hand it has been argued that Camelot could be identified with the Roman Fort of Camelon: thereby creating genuine historical analogues for Morgan le fay, Guinevere, Camelot, and possibly Merlin and Mordred.
The vast advantage of this theory is that, to repeat, there is literally only one genuine historical figure from the correct time period who has the name Arthur and it is Arthur of Dalriada. Of course it is likely that over the years, elements from other historical figures (such as Lucius Castus) were added to make up the legend as we have it today. This is the solution to the mystery favoured by Michael Wood in his book "In Search of Myths and Heroes". See also [ 1].' User:BScotland 17:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This is true, of course, but the article overleaf needs clean up (as regards Artuir) and people can feel free to cannibalise what I wrote when they do this. One thing that has to be sorted out, however. According to the website http://www.legendofkingarthur.com there is ONE and ONE ONLY Arthur in this period (i.e. that is represented in more or less contemporary documents). However, other sites claim that this is not correct. Which of these claims is true? If it's not true that the idea that Artuir is 'our' Arthur becomes much less strong. This should be cleared up by someone who knows what they are talking about, I think BScotland, 8th April 2006
These webpages offer critiques of these theories:
Excerpts:
The main problem with this theory is, however, the 1000 years of silent transmission of these Scythian folktales as central to the Arthurian legend that the authors require us to accept, both in Britain and on the continent -- all the 'Scythian' elements appear in the post-Galfridian works, from Chrétien de Troyes onwards, and some of the most striking apparent parallels between the Arthurian legend and the eastern Batraz story make their very first appearances in Malory's Le Morte Darthur!
...none of the "most important of Arthurian themes" are even hinted at in the reasonably large body of insular Arthurian traditions that we have preserved in Culhwch, Pa gur?, the Triads etc. -- Arthur, as he appears in non-Galfridian [ed. deriving from Geoffrey of Monmouth] tradition, looks like an entirely insular figure with an insular cycle (see Padel, 1994, 1995; Bromwich and Evans, 1992; Ford, 1983; Edel, 1983; etc.) and it is only in post-Galfridian materials that he gains what Littleton and Malcor see as the 'essential elements' of his legend when making him simply Batraz by another name...
Excerpts:
She [Malcor] submits that Artorius commanded the Sarmatians in Britain in the late second century. As far as I can tell, the reason for believing this is that Artorius served on the Danube frontier, and was probably involved in dealing with the Sarmatians there. Yet if you look at what she says about his earlier career, she argues that he must have got to know the Sarmatians when he was on the Danube [The author says the Sarmatian recruiting and placement as depicted in the film were totally wrong - well, read the piece], because we know he later took command of them! Can we say 'circular argument', children?
...[Malcor's] second article [ [1] ] is equally circular in its logic, demonstrating that Artorius' life has parallels with Arthur's by reconstructing the Roman's biography from Arthurian sources! She even includes Badon in Artorius' battles, despite the fact that we know this battle took place in the post-Roman period. And I do wonder, if Artorius had such a glorious career, why is it that his name leaves no trace in the historical record, only being known from epigraphy.
Someone should probably read and integrate them into the article; I don't have the time right now. Uthanc 23:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
As some Arthurian literary material passed through Breton hands it may be worth adding a piece on the Alan settlement in Armorica (Brittany) in the Late Roman period. Many counts of Brittany were named Alan, so their impact on Breton culture was not negligible. It is therefore possible that Iranian steppe traditions entered the Arthurian corpus through Alan influence in Brittany not Sarmatian influence within Britain itself.
Urselius 12:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
This section has a lot of irrelevant and nonfactual information - I will try to clean this up a bit. Cagwinn ( talk) 01:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
King Arthur was supposedly referred to by some writers as the Bear of Britain (Mythological basis section) Supposedly? Either a writer did (so the reference can be found) or did not. What's the source? Totnesmartin 17:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that the bottom section about the Historical basis for other parts of Arthurian legend may do better as a separate article Historical basis for Arthurian legend. This would allow for expansion of the section and better organization, as well as being another step towards removal of the cleanup tag on this article. This article would be a sub article summarized in the newly-created article with a link provided. Wrad 05:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I can see where this guy comes from. The way the last section is now is really not much more than the list page. It doesn't fit in this article at all. The new article I'm thinking of would be different, it would be a central place to summarize the most significant parts of historical basis for Arthurian legend, not a character by character account. I'm sure there is plenty of literature for it. Wrad 17:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The Early Welsh poem 'Llongborth,' which describes a battle at a port-settlement mentions Arthur. It also calls him "emperor." The poem is a praise-poem and elegy for a king called Geraint/Gereint (Gerontius), who is often identified with Gereint of Dumnonia. Some reference to this poem would be a useful addition to the early sources section.
Urselius 08:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The relevant verse from the poem:
In Llongborth I saw Arthur's Heroes who cut with steel. The Emperor, ruler of our labour
The poem is found in The Black Book of Carmarthen, compiled around 1250, from earlier documents. As Yr Gododdin was similarly copied at much the same time, circa 1250, it seems illogical to include the one and not the other. An early date for the poem is supported by the use of the name Llongborth, which means "naval-port," or "port of warships" incorporating part of the Latin term "navis longa" meaning warship.
Urselius 10:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The story of Gerontius the British Magister Militum (Field Marshal) of Constantine III, should be added to the section on emperors. Gerontius was instrumental in securing Gaul for Constantine III, but then rebelled in Spain and elevated his son Maximus to the Imperial throne. After the fall of Gerontius, Maximus seems to have joined one of the barbarian groups in Spain, he might be the same Maximus captured in 422, and executed. If so a British born former Roman Emperor was still alive into the 420s. This Maximus is a sort of mirror image to the earlier emperor, Magnus Maximus was born in Spain and elevated in Britain, the later Maximus seems to have been born in Britain and elevated in Spain.
The name Gerontius as Geraint was popular in Britain in the next few generations and is a name which re-occurs in the royal family of Dumnonia, to which tradition connects King Arthur.
Urselius 08:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
A great many sights in Scotland bare Arthurian names, many of his ancestors and conntemporaries were from that area of Scotland and north England, ( Hen Ogledd. Also, the many Welsh legends of him were actually carried there by northern settlers fleeing from Pictish and Irish incursions. Alistair Moffat in his "Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms" makes a very good case for this, and even locates his "Camelot." He is very realistic, pointing out the many false parts of the legends and relying on historical fact. Perhaps this should be one of the subsections. -- -G.T.N. ( talk) 23:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
This thing's getting pretty big, and there is so much more to be said about each theory. Perhaps we ought to split it up into separate articles, such as one on mythological Arthur and one on historical Arthur, or separate ones for each century and a mythological article. We might even make articles on theories by country of origin. Just a thought. Any ideas? -- -G.T.N. ( talk) 22:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Taken logically the inscription "Arthnou father of a descendant of Coll" would imply that Arthnou's wife and child were the descendants of Coll, not that Arthnou himself was.
Urselius ( talk) 14:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
What is the Major Chronicle Annals? --- G. T. N. —Preceding comment was added at 17:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
With regards to the following sentence, "Gildas in his De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae (or On the Ruin and Conquest of Britain) does mention a British king Cuneglasus who had been "charioteer to the bear"; the Brythonic word for bear was "Art"," I'd like to point out that "Art" was an Irish name attested to at least as far back as Art mac Cuinn, supposed High King of Ireland and son of Conn of the Hundred Battles (Cuinn = Conn), known mainly because of his more famous son, Cormac. Arthur is first mentioned by name with the qualification that he was not one of the kings of the Britons but "dux bellorum", their field commander. There certainly were enough Irish to go around: the Ulaidh in modern Galloway, the Ui Echach Cobo on the Isle of Mann, the Dal Riata in Earra Gaidheal (East Gaels), Ath Fodhla (New Ireland), the Ui Bairrche, Strath Eireann (valley of the Irish), Gowrie (from Cenel Gabhrain), Angus (Oengus), the Lemnaig, the Eoghanachta Magh Geirginn in Fortriu, the other Eoghanachta in Ceredigion and Dyfneint (Dumnonia), the Laighn in the Lleyn peninsula, the Feni in Gwynedd (Venedotia), the Deisi in Dyfed and Brycheiniog, and the Ui Liathin in Dyfneint. The place-names from the North I mention were in use at the time of Arthur or shortly thereafter and date from that time.
Of course, in earlier centuries numerous groups from Britain had invaded/settled in Ireland and assimilated: Galenga (Galeoin), Gangani, Ui Baircche (Brigantes), Fir Bolg/Belgae, Fir Domnan (Dumnonii), Fir Manach (Manapii), and three groups of Corieltauvi. Meanwhile, the Picts, or Cruithne, or Pretani, had identifiable tribes (Fineachan, Ui Eachach Cobo, Dal nAraidi, Connaill Muirtheimhne, Cineal Foghartaigh, Loigis, Sogain, and Fothairt) surviving to this day in family names (O’Lynch, MacCartan, MacGenis, O’Mannin, O’More, O’Nolan, O’Doran, O’Lawlor, and O’Dowling, among others); the influence went both ways. ( Natty4bumpo) 1503 EDT, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
To clarify, what I mean is that the historical Arthur may have been the son of one of the colonists from Ireland, rather than Irish-born himself. Consider, for example, the early story of his interaction with Brychan (Briocan, son of the Irish Deisi king of Dyfed) of Brycheiniog. He may have even started out with guerrilla warfare much like the later William Wallace, who was himself not one of the "kings" or lords of his country but rather "Guardian of Scotland", then had better luck with more conventional tactics than the latter did, sort of like Robert the Bruce. Natty4bumpo ( talk) 17:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I'll concede from the beginning that other people may be much better informed than I am on this topic, so I'm fully prepared to be corrected here. However, I am unaware of a historians' consensus on Norma Lorre Goodrich. For that matter, I'm unaware of any real consensus on anything regarding the historicity of King Arthur (hence the nature of this article). If there is a conflict between sources, then both views are given their appropriate weights. If Goodrich is a fringe author or not reliable for some other reason, then I agree she's omitted entirely. I'm not aware that's the case though. Is it? DCB4W ( talk) 15:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
: Over the years the questions about and analyses of her work on Arthur has helped me to define the very nature of bad scholarship, as opposed to passable fiction, about King Arthur.
Goodrich is, I'm afraid, not in any way an acceptable academic reference for anything other than her own theory, and needs to be removed. As requested by Doug on-list, I'll cite from one particularly telling review:
And so on... This is from Rosemary Morris's review of Goodrich's Arthur book, in the well-regarded and learned journal Albion, 19.3 (1987), pp. 391-3 [Morris is a very highly respected academic, incidentally, and author of such widely-cited works as The Character of King Arthur (1985)]. Cheers, Hrothgar cyning ( talk) 14:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
"Allen J. Frantzen The American Historical Review, Vol. 92, No. 3 (Jun., 1987), pp. 641-642". dougweller ( talk) 06:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I've removed Goodrich, again.
'during his alleged lifetime' begs the question. As someone elsewhere has asked, " What document in
the “traditional cycle of legends” states that Arthur was a “Romano”-British leader? Geoffrey states that King Aldroen reigned in Britain fourth after Conan Meriodoc, which might suggest he was fourth in descent and so the brother to the Constantine in Welsh genealogies who was fourth in descent from Kynan. And Conan/Kynan fought for Magnus Maximus according to Geoffrey and Welsh legend. Does that make Arthur “Romano”?"
And another comment from a practising archaeologist about a possible archaeological scenario:
"In the early fifth century (if not slightly before), the provincial governments of Maxima Caesariensis and Flavia Caesariensis began to employ small numbers of mercenary soldiers, initially in coastal locations, to help with defence against increasing sea-borne raids (by Picts, Scots, even Saxons). In the chaos of the economic collapse of the early decades of the fifth century, urban communities (no longer effectively controlled by whatever remnants of provincial government carried on after the administrative staff had ceased receiving their salaries) also began to employ mercenaries against increasing piracy, now reaching inland, and perhaps even localised civil unrest and a return to Iron Age raiding practices. This takes us up to the 440s. Then we have a revolt of at least some of the mercenaries, followed by a generation or so of warfare. The mercenary communities are successful in expanding the areas they control. Perhaps they invite kinsfolk across from north Germany and Scandinavia. But the archaeological correlate of a greater westward distribution of material culture is largely illusory: instead, it's spreading out from urban centres (Dorchester-on-Thames is the example par excellence) and filling in the gaps. Some of this is accomplished by new settlement but some of it is also accomplished by the uptake of germanic ways of doing things by the indigenes (I happen to think that the majority can be attributed to this, but that's something that will continue to be controversial until we have decent DNA analysis of ancient bone, not modern populations).
By the end of the fifth century, the distribution of this germanic style material culture is virtually at its greatest extent, covering an area east of a line from Dorset to the River Trent and from there up the east side of the Pennines to Lindisfarne. It's effectively the three late Roman provinces of Maxima Caesariensis, Flavia Caesariensis and Britannia Secunda; Britannia Prima is untouched by the new material, as is Valentia (if we can identify this with Cheshire, Lancashire and Cumbria). What I think we've seen in the east is the slow destruction of the infrastructure of Roman (or sub-Roman) government in these areas and its replacement by a more haphazard, locally based and fragmented tribalism. Two two western provinces maintain their coherence (can we portray Ambrosius Aurelianus as a governor of Britannia Prima and Arthur as his magister militum? I know it's been suggested before).
The 'westward expansion' does not come to an end with the fifth century: instead, the processes by which Britannia Prima and Valentia disappear and fragment are those 'civil wars' described by Gildas. There never was a 'westward expansion': instead it was the replacement of a centralised, Roman provincial government by urban local government, slowly infiltrated by soldiers of germanic descent and their war-bands, creating proto-kingdoms whose origin myths were framed around the heroic, militaristic deeds of ancestors (real or imagined) from continental Europe. The spread of germanic material culture is to do with emulation, as I've said before. "
Dougweller ( talk) 18:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
In two different paragraphs, in adjacent sections, the article states flatly that Hengist and Horsa were historicized from two Anglo-Saxon horse gods, and were never real people, and that they were in fact real Saxon leaders. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The section on Lucius Artorius Castus contains way too much hypothetical/speculative information - it is in desperate need of a re-write. For the past several days I have been editing the standalone Lucius Artorius Castus Wikipedia entry and have gotten it into much more cohesive and factual state - it would be great if I could get some feedback on it and maybe we can incorporate some of the information here. Cagwinn ( talk) 04:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
This section is in pretty abysmal shape - especially the table - there's a lot of misinformation and mispellings of names. I suggest that it all be scrapped, or at least get a major overhaul, since the majority of these other characters are not really relevant to the historocity of Arthur himself (obvious exceptions being Ambrosius and Medraut, who are at least mentioned in early histories or chronicles. -Cagwinn 66.28.99.139 ( talk) 01:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Why is there a section on Maximus here? No serious scholar has suggested that he was the "real Arthur", so it seems silly to me that he is even mentioned here. Cagwinn ( talk) 19:02, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I think this article is flawed in that we jump from discussing the traditional 5th-6th century Arthur to proposing all of these other "real" Arthurs without any explanation as to why the traditional Arthur should be rejected. Also, most (if not all) of these identifications with other "Arthurs" are dubious at best (and only have the support of pseudo-scholars) and I think it is ridiculous to give them all equal billing here, as if they are all valid, alternative candidates (the Athrwys identification, for example, is completely bogus and based on misreadings of old documents and allegedly forged "artifacts" produced by Blackett and Wilson - it does not really belong in this article). Cagwinn ( talk) 15:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
The words Sassanian and Sassenachs are the references to the same people,being the tribesmen of Khosroau(Crosroes)Persian Emporer of the modern day Iraq.The Oxford dictionary states that the 'Sassenach' was the German (and Celtic) term of Saxon.When these Sassanian Saxons swarmed into the depopulated area of central Europe they lived in the forests west of the Elbe and South coast of the Baltic between the Engrian tribes (Angles)and the Frisians of the Netherlands.They had no towns or cities and lived in groups in the forests and became mainly pirates as described by Charlemagne's historians.They landed on the shores of Britain occupying Essex, London, Sussex and Hampshire (wessex).Their brutality and merciless slaughter gave the name Assassins to the dictionary.They slaughtered every Briton south of the Thames from Dover to Dorset.as described by Gildas.Due to the collapsing Roman empire, the youth of Britons was removed to the continent, never to return.King Brude and his pictish war parties sent regular forays slaughtering the remaining Romans and Britons nobility. Ambrosius sent several appeals to Rome for assistance. It appears that Marcian a Roman emperor must have initiated a deal with the Engrians. This is the logical explanation as the Engrian,now referred to as Angles, were called Mercians.Bede states that the Angles came in their entirety leaving not a stick behind them.The Engrians gave England its name and kept the detestable Saxons in check at all times until the death of Offa's daughter and the influx of Danes.When Offa's daughter died the Saxons kidnapped her daughter and imprisoned her in Winchester. When the Great King Canute ruled England, he made good laws that were not equalled until the 19th century. When Canute left, there was no one but the Wessex royals to hand over to, causing great concern to English and the clergy.The Normans(northmen) where Saxons and their matrimonial arrangements caused the loss of the nation and a 1000 years of slavery.At one time Offa' warriors along side the Britons went into Somerset area and attacked the army of Egbert and exiled him. Offa's men also went into the Isle of Wight and removed the Sussex Saxons who were attacking the the Jutish inhabiants, and likewise in Kent,and Tyne side. William of Malmesbury in 1130ad, told the story of the great deeds of Offa but it was related either purposely, so not to be accused of treason, or because of the difficulty of pronouncing 'th', Offa was assumed to be Arthur. I rest my case. Brodie MacBrude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.35.157 ( talk) 01:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
As our article Battle of Badon states, this date is uncertain. We shouldn't be adding one specific claim, ie " that might have taken place in 482 AD, according to one recent estimate.Ó Cróinín, Dáibhí and McCarthy, Daniel, pp. 237-8, particrly as this is pretty dubious: Barbarian migrations and the Roman West, 376-568 By Guy Halsall where Halsall says on p 522 "13 McCarthy and O Croinin (15*87-8), pp. 237-S, who argue for a date for Badon of February 482 on the basis of an interpretation of Gildas' statement about Badon as meaning tbat it took place forty-four years and one month into a chronological cycle. The eighty-four-year Easter cycle available at the time would begin the cycle in 438. This is interesting but I am not sure the text supports the reading." (sorry about the OCR errors)
Anglo-Saxon England By Malcolm Godden, Simon Keynes "-' O Croinin, 'barly Irish Annals Irom kaster-1 ables . pp. • i -8 and 80—3. See also, D. McCarthy and 6 D. Croinin, The "lost" Irish 84-year Easter Table Rediscovered", Peritia f>—7 (1087-8), 22"-42. McKittcrick questions O Croiiiin's assumption that extant Easter tables acquired their marginal annal entries from their exemplars rather than being copied retrospectively from another source (all his examples survive in other forms); McKitierick, History end Memory, ." Dougweller ( talk) 12:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I inserted some more references to other historical characters with Art- Arth- names during the period of the VI and VII centuries. I located them at the Artuir mac Aedain section, but it can be moved or expanded as well. Galdaran ( talk) 03:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I would like to point out that another very credible Arthur figure is given by cerdic of Wessex by Rudmin&Rudmin in http://celtic-twilight.com/camelot/rudmin/index.htm . This paper is being refernced more and more in published books ( for example, Ashley, _The Mammoth_Book_of_King_Arthur_, as well as other research papers available online. As such, it is possible that this deserves a mention under alternative historical Arthurs. Since I am a relative of the authors, I DON'T think it is appropriate for me to insert this to the main page. But perhaps this should be considered. 2600:1003:B10B:D6E4:CC9C:8484:B08C:104A ( talk) 14:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)mjr
This article has always lacked any clear focus and for too long it has served as a COATRACK collecting various non-notable identifications. The "Debated historicity" section of the main King Arthur article is much better. Ideally, this article should spend less time listing off "alternative" theories and more time discussing the evidence and theories of Arthur's historicity. It should be separated into different sections:
...preferably in that order. Thoughts?-- Cúchullain t/ c 17:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
We need to make the distinction here between what's credible and what's notable. An idea can be the latter without being the former. I agree with Cagwinn and others on the removal of the Athrwys and Owain Ddantgwyn sections. They are sourced nearly exclusively to the authors' own works rather than independent sources, which violates [[WP:NOTABILITY],
WP:FRINGE, and
WP:UNDUE. Obviously, however, both the
Sarmatian hypothesis and the "Artognou stone" are notable and appropriate to include here. The Sarmatian hypothesis, for instance, has been discussed in various reliable publications, and has an entry in the New Arthurian Encyclopedia. The "Artognou stone" and its claimed connections to Arthur have also been discussed in a number of sources. The fact that these theories are now rejected has no bearing on their notability to the subject at hand. The Historia Brittonum is also dismissed as reliable for this period of history, should we exclude that too?
As I said in a previous summary, both sections could use improvement (as could the rest of the article), but cleanup is the solution, not outright removal.-- Cúchullain t/ c 12:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
There are some historians who consider "King Arthur" to be a composite of multiple real individuals--possibly over multiple periods--with their separate lives and activities folded by oral tradition into a single legendary individual. This idea should be explored, although I'm not the one to do that.
Personally, I find the positing that Arthur either corresponded to a specific individual or no one at all to be a false dichotomy.
RobertGustafson ( talk) 04:35, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
on the page it says that arthur's name was not mentioned: 'or any other surviving work until 820,' However the Gogodin by Anerin metions his name. Aneditor (talk tome) 10:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
This is probably a stupid question, but the opening sentence reads
The historical basis for King Arthur It is know that the historian King arthur Had a Bad temper when it can to a knight miss Behavior their is even stories of him Murdering Hundreds of Knights just because they did heir job wrong.Historian can as yet say nothing of value about him"
That sounds just a bit off to me, but I don't have the source. Anyone be able to change that? Vyselink ( talk) 03:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
NVM. I checked the edit history and some idiot IP screwed with things. I've since reverted. Vyselink ( talk) 03:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
See Talk:King Arthur#Cuneglas and his article. We've probably completely established what the line in Gildas meant,—it's simultaneously equating Cuneglas with Boötes driving the Great Wain ( Ursa Major) and "Arcturus" guarding the "Bear" (alt names for both figures at the time, though now Arcturus is usually only one of the stars), calling him lord of Din Arth, a Sub-Roman fortress that commanded the coast near the mouth of the Clwyd—although it's possible there might be a fourth or fifth level to the pun as well, if "Arcturus" was his or "Bear" someone else's nickname. For what it's worth, " Arcturus" is one of the linguistically viable candidates for Arthur having originated as someone's epithet. — LlywelynII 01:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm new to the King Arthur project, but I would like to get things going. There are some theories proposed by Rachel Bromwich and others about a Northern Arthur. The theory is discussed on the Arthuriana page: http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/historicity/arthurappendix.htm. Would it be OK to include a summary of this theory? Another proponent is Dr. Flint Johnson, who advocates these theories in the works Origins of Arthurian Romances (2012) and Evidence of Arthur (2014). Would these be considered credible enough to use in the article? PhiChiPsiOmega ( talk) 01:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The third reference says "Green 1998; Padel 1994; Green 2007b, chapters five and seven." but there is no indication of what works are actually intended. DuncanHill ( talk) 01:23, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move per request.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 22:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Historical basis for King Arthur → Historicity of King Arthur – In the interests of WP:CONSISTENCY, this is the only article named "Historical basis for" something. Unless there's a nuance between "Historical basis for" and "Historicity of" that I'm overlooking, I suggest bringing this title in line with Historicity of Jesus and Historicity of Muhammad. These seem to be the only directly comparable articles, and this one is in Category:Historicity already. -- BDD ( talk) 13:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Cunotamos as 'Great Dog' is surely incorrect. The first syllable is akin to modern Welsh 'cyn' = fore, before. Cf. Welsh 'cyntaf' = first. The personal name really means 'foremost'. WallHeath ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:30, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
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That section badly needs to be trimmed, probably by merger to other articles. It's the longest section in the article, and is about 25–30% of the total article aside from the lead, but is not a strong theory, and half the material in the section is off-topic (because there is no actual connection between Casta and Sarmatians in Britain). See also previous discussions on this page about focus, splitting, merging, etc.
We should have an article (and probably do somewhere) on the theory that Alan–Sarmatian–Nart Roman conscripts had a strong influence on the Arthurian legends; this material should merge there, as it has nothing to do with historicity of Arthur. I see no material on this at
Nart sagas, so much of it should probably go there, as it is a
WP:COATRACK in this article. (The theory is dubious but vaguely possible. It seems more likely that similar legends were in various places and survive to the present in fragmentary form that isn't universally consistent, producing coincidental, isolated pockets of similarity. If this didn't happen, then Joseph Campbell, Robert Graves, and James George Frazer would have had a whole lot less to write about. There's also a lot of confirmation bias at work; fans of the Sarmatian hyphothesis don't have an answer for the fact that the Nart sagas are missing an endless list of other elements from the Arthurian cycle, like an immortal wizard, a prophecy of the king's return, a round table, yadda yadda.)
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
18:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
There's another well-developed idea, that Arthur was actually a king or warlord in the Strathyclyde and Northumbria area, which was Brythonic in that era. I read a book on this some time around the early 2000s, but mis-remember which one it was, and I don't know how well it's been received since publication. Some aspects of it were that it's more plausible as a location of "Camelot" than places like Colchester because it's removed from Anglo-Saxon-invaded areas; it might explain the presence of many Northern British names in the stories, which aren't as Welsh-dominated as is commonly believed; the area is still close enough to Glastonbury for common Arthurian association of the place to remain plausible; and the Isle of Man is nearby and could have been the Arthurian Avalon. I don't recall what evidence was presented in detail for the overall idea. Someone hot to work on this article, however, could get into this and include this hypothesis for completeness, since it's the most recent one, and it may have had an influence on the short-lived semi-recent TV series (the one with Eva Green). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
SNAAAAKE!!, the following lead sentence is a bit long: "Arthur first appears in historical context as a soldier fighting against the invading Saxons in 5th-6th century Sub-Roman Britain in a text written more than three centuries after his supposed period of activity." Consider the following: "In historical context, Arthur first appears in 5th-6th century Sub-Roman Britain as a soldier fighting against the invading Saxons. The text depicts an era more than three centuries after his supposed period of activity." I felt clarity was needed to distinguish whether the text was actually written/authored three centuries after his supposed period of activity or if the written text just depicts that time frame.
Atsme
✍🏻
📧
18:45, 12 October 2018 (UTC) Nevermind. 16:27, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I just noticed Riothamus lacks references. But there are some at /info/en/?search=Riothamus#Riothamus_as_King_Arthur_or_Ambrosius_Aurelianus SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 17:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Higham, Nicholas J., King Arthur: The Making of the Legend, Yale University Press, 2018, p. 39:
Section and issue.
Another potential candidate for the historical King Arthur has to be Ardaric, King of the Gepids. If so, the legend of King Arthur would not be rooted in indigenous British history, but would instead be, somewhat ironically, a Germanic import. In other words, not only would King Arthur not really have repelled Germanic invaders, his legend, paradoxically, may have arrived along with those invaders. Nevertheless, it is by no means uncommon for a people to hear a tale which originated elsewhere, and then to refashion that tale so it better suits their needs and aspirations as a people.
The likeness between the name “Ardaric” (or “Ardaricus”) and “Arthur” or (“Arturius”) is plain to observe. Given that the exact origin of the name “Arthur” remains a matter of intense debate, the name “Ardaric” must be seen as a plausible candidate. Moreover, it is not particularly likely that the actual name of the historical figure would have been properly preserved in oral or literary tradition by the time the alleged events relating to King Arthur were finally recorded. After all, it was a full 300 years between when Arthur is first mentioned in any surviving text (Historia Brittonum, 9th Century) [1], and when he is alleged to have actually lived (late 5th, early 6th Century). [2] As a name passes through time and space, it is bound to be gnarled and deformed.
It is also quite possible that the glaring similarities between the names “Arthur” and “Ardaric” simply impelled local peoples to assign King Ardaric the name “Arthur” (or "Arturius"). There is certainly nothing stopping a people from assigning foreign military commanders more familiar local names. In other words, “Arthur” may very well be a Celtic or native British name, assigned to a somewhat exotic, albeit storied military commander who possessed a name that sounded something like, or even a lot like, a locally used name. When people enter new countries or regions the local people often distort their names to reflect local norms, and in some cases give them entirely new names. Thus, the name “Ardaric” does not have to be the etymological source of the name “Arthur” for the historical King Ardaric to be the inspiration for the myth of King Arthur.
Furthermore, the name Ardaric is assumed to represent Germanic Hardu-reiks ("hart" in Old High German, meaning "brave" or "strong", combined with "reiks", Gothic for "ruler" or "king", closely related to Celtic "rig" or "rix"). [3] [4] Danish historian Gudmund Schütte tentatively identified the Heiðrek of Germanic legend with the historical Gepid king, Ardaric. [5] [6] King Heidrek was one of the main players in the Hervarar Saga concerning the magic sword, Tyrfing. [7] Therefore, both King Ardaric and King Arthur are claimed to have possessed magic swords. Since there are only so many “magic swords” in European mythology, the coincidence is a considerable one.
Thus, we have undeniable similarities in name, we have clear parallels in what they represent as noble military underdogs, in both cases an autochthonous king whose people were being dominated and subjugated, rising up and repelling allochthonous invading hordes (Ardaric and his allies defeated the Huns at the Battle of Nedao in 454 AD [8]), we have historical concurrency in that both Ardaric and Arthur are said to have lived during roughly the same time period (Ardaric lived during the mid 5th Century, whereas Arthur is said to have lived during the late 5th, early 6th Century), and we have a strong coincidence in that both are said to have been European kings who wielded a magic sword (Excalibur and Tyrfing).
It is impossible to think that news of Ardaric’s victory over the Huns would not have circulated widely throughout Europe, especially amongst Germanic peoples speaking mutually intelligible Germanic tongues. We should therefore expect those accounts to have been recycled and reformulated over the centuries in whatever lands Germanic peoples found themselves. Anglo-Saxon invaders/settlers of the British Isles, who would have begun arriving in the mid 5th Century, right around when Ardaric defeated the Huns in East-Central Europe, most certainly would have possessed and brought with them some knowledge of his momentous mutiny against, and military triumph over, his Hunnish overlords. That story may very well have trickled down into Celtic Briton communities, perhaps even serving as inspiration for native clans restless and discontent under Anglo-Saxon rule.
King Ardaric of the Gepids must therefore be viewed as a potential historical candidate for the legend of King Arthur. Indeed, Ardaric seems perhaps the most plausible candidate of all the leading candidates, and the one who has perhaps the most in common with the fictive British king of lore.
Debate on whether too much synthesis and original research:
Firstly, there is no actual ban on original research and synthesis on Wikipedia. There is only a professed ban on it. It is not a real ban, in part because it is virtually impossible to enforce. The notion that there is no allowance for original thought on Wikipedia is just laughable. I see original thought on here all the time. Everyone does. Moderators on here seem to be very selective about what they will allow and why.
Secondly, a strict prohibition on synthesis and original research on this topic is simply absurd. This entire article is almost all laughable speculation. Everyone reading understands that the claims are but hypotheses and the conclusions drawn are highly speculative. The only limitation imposed on additions to this article should be plausibility of the conclusion and reliability of the premises (good citation).
I have cited my truth claims (the "facts" that constitute my premises) and Ardaric is at least as plausible a historical candidate as the others mentioned on this list. No more should be required. It is not like there is a glut of potential historical figures out there, or that this article is at risk of becoming excessively lengthy or overfilled with candidates. People are not exactly coming out of the woodwork on this one to add to the list. There is simply no reason to limit the candidates only to those unlikely candidates some scholar has speculatively put forth at some point in the past. The nature of the article (conjecture) is inconsistent with the no synthesis, no original thought standard. It is simply an absurd standard in light of the topic. It makes zero sense. It is completely unsuited for a subject such as this. Indeed, developing an argument and citing the premises adequately is no different than what the original authors being cited have themselves done, although my contribution is more thorough and persuasive than some of those citations, since some of those authors are engaged in what is, frankly, wild speculation, with little basis in anything substantive.
Anyhow, the essence of this article is speculation, not fact. That distinguishes articles like this from most other wikipedia articles, which are very much fact-centered. The nature of the article must influence rules on contributions. It must. Conjecture does not become more reliable simply because someone wrote it down in a book somewhere. It is still conjecture. Since all the people on this list are conjecture, not fact, or anything remotely akin to it, plausibility (coupled with adequate citation) should be the primary limitation on additions. My candidate is more than plausible. Indeed, he is arguably more plausible than the other candidates on the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6c67:5d7f:a300:5dec:70df:24d4:1a5f ( talk • contribs) 00:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
References
1) The ban is not real. It is essentially fictive. It is a vague, general rule that is and must invariably be selectively applied. It is meant to deter claims with insufficient basis in fact or research (the premises to my thesis are basically all sourced). The rule is not meant to be enforced strictly. Applying the rule in this context is particularly absurd. *All of the candidates are highly conjectural already.* This isn't an article about facts, it is an article about possibilities.
2) "Reputable", "published" sources. LOL. Baseless conjecture that was once written down in a book. Literally anywhere, any time, any book, and no matter how baseless the conjecture = "Reputable", "published". Laughable. Truly laughable.
3) Oh, I'm sure you would be happy to block me. There is a very strong authoritarian streak amongst wikipedia mods. It is quite obvious that people who go around policing wikipedia articles in their free time (not sure they have any other time) are being strongly selected for certain personality traits (not unlike certain professions - consider law enforcement). You folks clearly lust over power and control. The thought of it in your hands just makes you giddy, doesn't it? I suspect this is due to a lack of power over your own lives. Pitiful really. Needless to say, you should be kept as far away from power as humanly possible.
4) There is no reason to limit the list to those folks who authors have previously speculated could be the historical inspiration for King Arthur. All the candidates are highly, highly speculative. Plausible candidates should not be kept off the list when implausible candidates are already on it. They especially should not be kept off the list simply because no one has made the claim prior, or made a compelling argument for the claim. It is irrational, unnecessary, & unbefitting the issue.
Good day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6c67:5d7f:a300:5dec:70df:24d4:1a5f ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't say my comments were anything new. Whether they are new or not does not make them any less true. My arguments are particularly strong in this context, since the candidates are obviously hypothetical and based in conjecture.
- I did improve the article. I added a very plausible historical figure to an utterly wanting list. You made it worse because you enjoy enforcing "rules" that are utterly inappropriate for the context, and which are not really rules so much as guidelines. Indeed, you yourself are now saying they are basically "guidelines". Except the very nature of guidelines is such that they are not hard rules, which is and was my very point.
- You revealed that you enjoyed throwing your weight around on here ("I am happy to" - a very revealing choice of words), which I have no doubt is true, and then when I called you out on it, you pretended you didn't really enjoy it. Whatever you say, man.
- The prohibition on drawing conclusions not contained in the source material is essential to maintaining Wikipedia's reliability as an encyclopedia (I understand that). Wikipedia doesn't want contributors stating more than what is claimed in the source material, because that is problematic in truth-centered, fact-oriented contexts. However, that restriction is meant for articles that are actually asserting things, and as such are truth-centered. This article is simply not asserting [objective] truths (as is the case with most encyclopedia articles), it is merely putting forth and/or documenting hypotheses. Everyone reading the article understands that. As such, Wikipedia's credibility would not and could not be harmed by including some original research and original thought on such subjects. Wikipedia can't get some fact (or historical matter) wrong that is not anything remotely like a fact. As such, its reputation and trustworthiness could not possibly suffer thereby. Contributors also can not assert some truth (conclusion) inappropriately where they are not even asserting a truth, so much as setting forth a claim that all reasonable observers would understand to be an obviously unsubstantiated, and perhaps even unsubstantiatable, hypothesis. Open speculation can not be unreliable because the nature of speculation is such that what is being claimed is uncertain.
- I understand that original thought/research is not appropriate for most wikipedia/encyclopedia articles/contexts, but it should be tolerated here. My contribution is a fair one. I'm wasting time? I think you are. The addition should never have been removed, and we should not be quibbling about it here. The contribution should have been tolerated from the outset, and it should be put back up. You are just following rules for the sake of following rules, without regard for context and whether those rules are appropriate for the context, and despite the fact that they are not really even rules so much as guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6c67:5d7f:a300:5dec:70df:24d4:1a5f ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
The article states "The academic consensus today is that King Arthur was a mythological or folkloric figure, and not an actual individual." This, however, is not true. Aside from citing only a single source in making such a grand assertion, nowhere else aside from Wikipedia makes the same claim. Rather the direct contrary and, on the King Arthur page (before I began editing) it has long stated that "because historical documents for the post-Roman period are scarce, a definitive answer to the question of Arthur's historical existence is unlikely." In short, there is a glaring disconnect between the Historicity of King Arthur page and that of many established Encyclopædias such Britannica as well as with the Wiki's own page on King Arthur. Ghmyrtle, Doug Weller, I await your judgement.-- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 19:38, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
"The historicity of King Arthur has been debated both by academics and popular writers. While there have been many suggestions that the character of Arthur may be based on one or more real historical figures, the view of most academic historians today is that King Arthur was a mythological or folkloric figure."
I think it is worth adding the views of other historians.
In the 21st century opinion has moved decisively in favour of the skeptics such as Myres and Dumville.
I agree with Ghmyrtle, and you bring up an excellent point Dudley Miles. I propose that a section be added to the article detailing the historiography of the academic debate regarding King Arthur's existence. -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 14:21, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The academic consensus seems to pivot on a lack of mention in Gildas and Bedes. Yet the earliest title attributed to Arthur in Historia Brittonum is dux bellorum and in Annales Cambriae is soldier - a title attributed to him in some Welsh folktales as well - in other words a military commander serving a leader. He could have served leaders like Ambrosius or the kings Gildas condemns and so not necessarily worth mention in a list of leaders. Another possibility is that 'Arthur' is a nickname derived from 'bear' and he is in the text under his real name - he could be Ambrosius, or alternatively one of the kings condemned is called a dragon (for pendragon?) and another called a bear (for Arthur?) either one could be him. For an alternative to this Graham Phillips who I know is not very reputable but makes the simple suggestion that he is the unnamed uncle connecting the two. And then there is there Caradoc of Llancarfans 'Life' which while as fanciful as Monmouth could just like Monmouth have a kernel of truth from sources now lost in its claim of a personal connection and conflict between the Arthur and Gildas - if so that would explain the lack of mention, and if Arthur has a connection to those two kings it would even explain the hate directed at them too. Has any of this been considered in academia, is there any way to include it? LamontCranston ( talk) 11:28, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy says that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." WP:PSTS
Several of the sources that recent versions of the article cites are not of high quality:
That doesn't mean that what these sources say is wrong, but that they are not good sources for this information, and should not be used in the article. -- Macrakis ( talk) 15:37, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles, Ghmyrtle, Nicknack009, and Bard Cadarn: as you all have been involved in a related discussion, would you please look at these two articles, including my recent edits to Breeze whose article I think is still problematical? He seems overused at Camlann. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 12:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC) I knew I forgot one, sorry User:Macrakis. Doug Weller talk 12:16, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
It claims/implies that King Arthur was not just not an actual single person, but not even a character inspired by any historical figure or even any previous legend at all, and states that's what scientists believe today as in the current century (quote: "or a composite of any of these people as well as other figures and myths. Academic historians have not supported these hypotheses in the 21st century"). Not only it's very dubious (since many other Arthurian characters are clearly based on / inspired by figures considered historical and by legendary characters, not invented from thin air), but here's for example Miles Russell in 2020 (and more exactly 1 day ago) identifying what he believes were the 5 historical inspirations for the version by Geoffrey: https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/where-is-camelot-where-arthurs-court-camelot-castle/ (scroll down for the video, apparently YouTube is blacklisted on Wikipedia which is ridiculous). -- 5.173.106.61 ( talk) 20:00, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
"Historia Brittonum lists 12 battles fought by Arthur and gives him the title of dux bellorum (war commander or leader), saying that Arthur fought "alongside the kings of the Britons", rather than that Arthur was himself a king."
This statement is not exactly true. The Nennius text is in Latin. And it is somewhat ambiguous since it can be read to mean 'Arthur fought alongside the other kings of the Britons but he was their war leader'.
In other words it can be read to mean that Arthur too was a king, but it was he who led all the other kings in the war.
Always worth checking the original text. 78.150.38.110 ( talk) 19:11, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The fundamental problem is not accurately quoting an English translation of what 'Nennius' wrote, but establishing what 'Nennius actually meant when he wrote: "tunc Arthur pugnabat contra illos in illis diebus cum regibus Brittonum, sed ipse erat dux bellorum".
'dux bellorum' for example is not self-evidently a formal title but just as plausibly is no more than a generic term for something like 'commander in chief'.
Nor does Nennius actually state that Arthur wasn't one of the Kings of the Britons. This awkward Latin sentence can easily be read as implicitly meaning that that he was one of them, but that in the war he led them all.
Safest to simply and factually say that what Nennius meant is not clear and thus debateable, that differing interpretations are possible, and to quote the Latin original alongside more than one English translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.38.110 ( talk) 09:56, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
That alternative interpretation of what Nennius meant can be found (and quoted from) on page 111 of Rodney Castleden's book King Arthur the Truth Behind the Legend. It can be read on-line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.217.179 ( talk) 12:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I repeat what i said in the talk page of the Battle Camlann:
Andrew Breeze argued about an historical Arthur in 537, and commented (in a paper in 2015, and his book "Battles of Britain" in 2020) of the coincidence of dates between the following events:
-535-536 : /info/en/?search=Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536
-c. 536: global famine caused by the volcanic winter (18 months without summer), recorded by Procopius.
-De Exedio of Gildas would have been written in 536, because he mentioned in the text :‘certain thick mist and black night’ which ‘sits upon the whole island’ of Britain. but no famine
-537: Welsh Annal(Annales Cambriae) about "great mortality in Britain and Ireland", and Camlann.
Breeze interpretation is that the volcanic winter caused a famine(historical),and that the famine would have caused Camlann (Breeze argued that it was a cattle raid in North Britain).
Research in Norway concluded that the climate event of 535-536 was also catastrophic there, the famine(and perhaps the Justinian plague of 542 ) halved the population and make a great loss of technology for centuries:
About Britain I found the next research about the matter:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0078172X.2016.1195600?journalCode=ynhi20 :Breeze paper of 2015
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328448644_Camlann_and_537 : counter-arguments of Breeze paper, disputing his interpretation of the "cattle raid", but agree with an historical Camlann (but with uncertain date).
I'm not expert in the matter, but the period (mid VI century) was very dramatic:
1.-In 535-536 happened the volcanic winter(because a volcano in Central America), a global event(recorded in Byzantium and China), with subsequent famine.
2.-In 541 happened the Justinian Plague in all Europe: /info/en/?search=Plague_of_Justinian
3.- And next, TWO additional volcanic winters happened in 539/540 and 547: /info/en/?search=Late_Antique_Little_Ice_Age
I don't know if there exists more recent research about this period (mid VI century) in Britain. So I added the Breeze arguments to the historicity section. My personal opinion: The Arthurian debate has begun again.
>>The connection to dateable historical weather/famine/disease events is definitely interesting. Hopefully more work will be published either supporting or discrediting the idea.
And, of course, the Battle of Camlann could be historical even if Arthur is not.
(Just to make my own bias clear, I think there was in one sense a historical Arthur - in the sense, and only the sense, that the Battle of Badon is historical even if Camlann isn't, and somebody had to be the Romano-British commander, and Arthur is the only name we have - but that nothing historical can be now known about him. The composite-character idea makes way more sense to me than any of the specific identifications.)
Vultur~enwiki (
talk)
02:18, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 |
Either this article is mislabelled, or it needs more work. At the time of this comment, all it contains are various personages who have been suggested as either the basis of the Arthurian legend or have been identified with Arthur. (This is not to say this information should be removed; it is important in its own right.)
What this article should address is the following:
As a result, the theories about the historical Arthur boil down to these:
(The last option IMHO, is the least likely, but many naively hold to it.)
This subject is a very complex one, & I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few flamewars over ths article before it becomes worth nominating as a Featured Article. -- llywrch 18:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Llywrch, your arguments seem to be the result of a good research of the subject. Perhaps they could form the basis of an article similar in intent to Historicity of Jesus. Presenting arguments for and against the existance of an at least semi-legendary figure.
But I hope you will find some time to address some counter-arguments.
1)The given period ( 480 - 540) is indeed not among the best documented periods of European history. But not exactly a "dark age". As it includes the reigns of at least two celebrated rulers: Clovis I (reigned 481 - 511) and Justinian I (reigned 527 - 565).
2)The "contemporary" would-be sources Gildas and Procopius are somewhat problematic:
His reference is not unlike Nick Mason or Bob Marley referencing their own births occuring on the same year/s as the Battle of the Bulge. A passing reference with no detail.
Vortigern Studies] gives the translated text as follows:
"From that time on now the citizens, now the enemy, were victorious ... right up until the year of the siege of Badon Hill, almost the last, not the least, slaughter of the villains, and this the forty-fourth year begins (as I know) with one month already elapsed, which is also [that] of my birth."
Vortigern Studies] gives the translated text as follows: "Three very populous nations inhabit the Island of Brittia, and one king is set over each of them. And the names of these nations are Angles, Frisians, and Britons who have the same name as the island. So great apparently is the multitude of these peoples that every year in large groups they migrate from there with their women and children and go to the Franks. And they [the Franks] are settling them in what seems to be the more desolate part of their land, and as a result of this they say they are gaining possession of the island. So that not long ago the king of the Franks actually sent some of his friends to the Emperor Justinian in Byzantium, and despatched with them the men of the Angles, claiming that this island [Britain], too, is ruled by him. Such then are the matters concerning the island called Brittia."
Neither author sets to detail the history of Britain during this period. And Procopius gets the name wrong.
3)The texts interpritated as historical evidence of Arthur indeed date from at least two centuries after his supposed death. But the same probably is true about Hengest and Horsa. This does not proove the texts to be completely false but cast doubt on their accuracy.
4)One could argue that few works of ancient and medieval history were written with the intent to "document events accurately".
Herodotus was often unsure of the actual course of events and resolved to offer competing versions for them, presenting his own conclusions at the end. He lists as historical figures Io and Europa. His dialogues between Solon and Croesus seem to be instructions on morality and happiness. Not unlike the intentions of Plutarch. And several tales were apparently included for the sake of entertainment.
Thucydides and Suetonius feature "heroes" in the forms of cunning politicians such as Pericles and Caesar Augustus.
Court historians such as Manetho, Eusebius of Caesarea and Procopius tend to read as propaganda.
Unbiased presentation of events seems a rather modern goal for historians.
5) Actually the theories may not be mutualy exclusive. The complex traditions included in the Matter of Britain may equally contain historical traditions, forgeries by nobles claiming descent from figures such as Bors and Morgan le Fay, religious tales of paganism and Christianity alike and naturally the fictions of such worthies as Geoffrey of Monmouth and Thomas Malory. Arthur may be a composite figure rather than a singular historical or fictional character.
6)Who does seriously believe that any of the romance writers accurately depicted 6th century Britain? User: Dimadick
Comments: Apart from that Joseph of Arimathea myth, what links Glastonbury in any way, shape or form to Avalon before the advent of the Plantagenets' propaganda machine? I doubt there's much that can be described as definitive.
Do we also need to mention all later additions (like the Grail) that distract from the earlier elements which are closer to being genuine; it's an article on the HISTORICITY of Arthur.
The bit about Merlin mentions Myrddin Emrys but dates both Merlins to well after the Arthurian period. This ignores the identification of Emrys with Ambrosius.
I'm very much in agreement with llywrch. This article should give an account of the various sources for Arthur, and then deconstruct each of them. I don't see a problem keeping all the "might have beens", but if this is an article on historicity it should focus on the sources. Harthacanute 23:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"The location of Riothamus’s army was betrayed to the Visigoths by the jealous Praetorian Prefect of Gaul, and Euric defeated him in a battle in Burgundy. Riothamus was last seen retreating near a town called Avallon"
Praetorian prefect? I was under the impression that the Praetorians were disbanded in the 4th century. Fred26 20:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I am currently rewriting Áedán mac Gabráin, so I have perused Zeigler's article on Artuir, which struck me being built on rather shaky foundations, but the sections in this article would be improved by following Zeigler. I have also changed to the "normal" orthography for their names, as above. The variants "mac Gabran" and "mac A(ei)dan" are barbarisms, but Artuir is more debatable: if editors prefer Artur then that is a perfectly acceptable form. The date of Artuir mac Áedáin's death is uncertain, but the one source which gives it - the Annals of Tigernach - has 594: "Iugulacio filiorum Aedan .i. Bran & Domungort & Eochaid Fínd & Artur ...". Artuir is also mentioned by Adomnán and is given as a son of Áedán in the Senchus fer n-Alban. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I wrote this piece before noticing that there was another piece below dealing with the same figure! D'oh! Anyway you can make use of it as you feel fit....all the information is from the the Legend of King Arthur website and Michael Wood's In Search of Myths and Heroes.
The key problem with identifying a historical Arthur is the date and the name. It is generally agreed that all the early sources date the historical Arthur to a time after the end of the British Roman Empire, and before the Angles and the Saxons stabilised their power and begain what is now known as Anglo-Saxon Britain: i.e a period between the 4th and the 6th century. The key problem, thereofore, is that there is only one historical figure (noted in contemporary historical documents) who has the name Arthur (as the name would have been written at the time: Artuir). This is Artuir, the eldest son of Aedan mac Gabrain, King of Dalriada which was a Scottish Gaelic speaking (but probably Christian) Kingdom "between the walls" i.e. located between the Antonine Wall and Hadrian's Wall. This tribe was most active between the end of the 6th century BC and the beginning of the 7th century BC.
Interestingly, this is the same part of Britain that the earliest records of Myrddin (now known as Merlin come from). Moreover, the very earliest references to Arthur's last battle describe it as being at Camlann. Assuming that this is not simply an invented name (and this is of course a possibility) this has been tentatively identified as Camboglanna near Hadrian's Wall. There is also some even more tentative evidence showing that this historical Arthur may have had a sister named Morgen (who became Morgan Le Fay), and even, perhaps, a wife whose name was etymologically related to Guinevere.
The disadvantage of this theory is that one loses almost all the legend. This Arthur did not die fighting the Angles or the Saxons but the Picts. Nor was he King (or even leader) of the Britains: Dalriada was a small Kingdom even by the standards of the day. On the other hand it has been argued that Camelot could be identified with the Roman Fort of Camelon: thereby creating genuine historical analogues for Morgan le fay, Guinevere, Camelot, and possibly Merlin and Mordred.
The vast advantage of this theory is that, to repeat, there is literally only one genuine historical figure from the correct time period who has the name Arthur and it is Arthur of Dalriada. Of course it is likely that over the years, elements from other historical figures (such as Lucius Castus) were added to make up the legend as we have it today. This is the solution to the mystery favoured by Michael Wood in his book "In Search of Myths and Heroes". See also [ 1].' User:BScotland 17:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This is true, of course, but the article overleaf needs clean up (as regards Artuir) and people can feel free to cannibalise what I wrote when they do this. One thing that has to be sorted out, however. According to the website http://www.legendofkingarthur.com there is ONE and ONE ONLY Arthur in this period (i.e. that is represented in more or less contemporary documents). However, other sites claim that this is not correct. Which of these claims is true? If it's not true that the idea that Artuir is 'our' Arthur becomes much less strong. This should be cleared up by someone who knows what they are talking about, I think BScotland, 8th April 2006
These webpages offer critiques of these theories:
Excerpts:
The main problem with this theory is, however, the 1000 years of silent transmission of these Scythian folktales as central to the Arthurian legend that the authors require us to accept, both in Britain and on the continent -- all the 'Scythian' elements appear in the post-Galfridian works, from Chrétien de Troyes onwards, and some of the most striking apparent parallels between the Arthurian legend and the eastern Batraz story make their very first appearances in Malory's Le Morte Darthur!
...none of the "most important of Arthurian themes" are even hinted at in the reasonably large body of insular Arthurian traditions that we have preserved in Culhwch, Pa gur?, the Triads etc. -- Arthur, as he appears in non-Galfridian [ed. deriving from Geoffrey of Monmouth] tradition, looks like an entirely insular figure with an insular cycle (see Padel, 1994, 1995; Bromwich and Evans, 1992; Ford, 1983; Edel, 1983; etc.) and it is only in post-Galfridian materials that he gains what Littleton and Malcor see as the 'essential elements' of his legend when making him simply Batraz by another name...
Excerpts:
She [Malcor] submits that Artorius commanded the Sarmatians in Britain in the late second century. As far as I can tell, the reason for believing this is that Artorius served on the Danube frontier, and was probably involved in dealing with the Sarmatians there. Yet if you look at what she says about his earlier career, she argues that he must have got to know the Sarmatians when he was on the Danube [The author says the Sarmatian recruiting and placement as depicted in the film were totally wrong - well, read the piece], because we know he later took command of them! Can we say 'circular argument', children?
...[Malcor's] second article [ [1] ] is equally circular in its logic, demonstrating that Artorius' life has parallels with Arthur's by reconstructing the Roman's biography from Arthurian sources! She even includes Badon in Artorius' battles, despite the fact that we know this battle took place in the post-Roman period. And I do wonder, if Artorius had such a glorious career, why is it that his name leaves no trace in the historical record, only being known from epigraphy.
Someone should probably read and integrate them into the article; I don't have the time right now. Uthanc 23:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
As some Arthurian literary material passed through Breton hands it may be worth adding a piece on the Alan settlement in Armorica (Brittany) in the Late Roman period. Many counts of Brittany were named Alan, so their impact on Breton culture was not negligible. It is therefore possible that Iranian steppe traditions entered the Arthurian corpus through Alan influence in Brittany not Sarmatian influence within Britain itself.
Urselius 12:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
This section has a lot of irrelevant and nonfactual information - I will try to clean this up a bit. Cagwinn ( talk) 01:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
King Arthur was supposedly referred to by some writers as the Bear of Britain (Mythological basis section) Supposedly? Either a writer did (so the reference can be found) or did not. What's the source? Totnesmartin 17:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that the bottom section about the Historical basis for other parts of Arthurian legend may do better as a separate article Historical basis for Arthurian legend. This would allow for expansion of the section and better organization, as well as being another step towards removal of the cleanup tag on this article. This article would be a sub article summarized in the newly-created article with a link provided. Wrad 05:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I can see where this guy comes from. The way the last section is now is really not much more than the list page. It doesn't fit in this article at all. The new article I'm thinking of would be different, it would be a central place to summarize the most significant parts of historical basis for Arthurian legend, not a character by character account. I'm sure there is plenty of literature for it. Wrad 17:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The Early Welsh poem 'Llongborth,' which describes a battle at a port-settlement mentions Arthur. It also calls him "emperor." The poem is a praise-poem and elegy for a king called Geraint/Gereint (Gerontius), who is often identified with Gereint of Dumnonia. Some reference to this poem would be a useful addition to the early sources section.
Urselius 08:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The relevant verse from the poem:
In Llongborth I saw Arthur's Heroes who cut with steel. The Emperor, ruler of our labour
The poem is found in The Black Book of Carmarthen, compiled around 1250, from earlier documents. As Yr Gododdin was similarly copied at much the same time, circa 1250, it seems illogical to include the one and not the other. An early date for the poem is supported by the use of the name Llongborth, which means "naval-port," or "port of warships" incorporating part of the Latin term "navis longa" meaning warship.
Urselius 10:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The story of Gerontius the British Magister Militum (Field Marshal) of Constantine III, should be added to the section on emperors. Gerontius was instrumental in securing Gaul for Constantine III, but then rebelled in Spain and elevated his son Maximus to the Imperial throne. After the fall of Gerontius, Maximus seems to have joined one of the barbarian groups in Spain, he might be the same Maximus captured in 422, and executed. If so a British born former Roman Emperor was still alive into the 420s. This Maximus is a sort of mirror image to the earlier emperor, Magnus Maximus was born in Spain and elevated in Britain, the later Maximus seems to have been born in Britain and elevated in Spain.
The name Gerontius as Geraint was popular in Britain in the next few generations and is a name which re-occurs in the royal family of Dumnonia, to which tradition connects King Arthur.
Urselius 08:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
A great many sights in Scotland bare Arthurian names, many of his ancestors and conntemporaries were from that area of Scotland and north England, ( Hen Ogledd. Also, the many Welsh legends of him were actually carried there by northern settlers fleeing from Pictish and Irish incursions. Alistair Moffat in his "Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms" makes a very good case for this, and even locates his "Camelot." He is very realistic, pointing out the many false parts of the legends and relying on historical fact. Perhaps this should be one of the subsections. -- -G.T.N. ( talk) 23:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
This thing's getting pretty big, and there is so much more to be said about each theory. Perhaps we ought to split it up into separate articles, such as one on mythological Arthur and one on historical Arthur, or separate ones for each century and a mythological article. We might even make articles on theories by country of origin. Just a thought. Any ideas? -- -G.T.N. ( talk) 22:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Taken logically the inscription "Arthnou father of a descendant of Coll" would imply that Arthnou's wife and child were the descendants of Coll, not that Arthnou himself was.
Urselius ( talk) 14:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
What is the Major Chronicle Annals? --- G. T. N. —Preceding comment was added at 17:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
With regards to the following sentence, "Gildas in his De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae (or On the Ruin and Conquest of Britain) does mention a British king Cuneglasus who had been "charioteer to the bear"; the Brythonic word for bear was "Art"," I'd like to point out that "Art" was an Irish name attested to at least as far back as Art mac Cuinn, supposed High King of Ireland and son of Conn of the Hundred Battles (Cuinn = Conn), known mainly because of his more famous son, Cormac. Arthur is first mentioned by name with the qualification that he was not one of the kings of the Britons but "dux bellorum", their field commander. There certainly were enough Irish to go around: the Ulaidh in modern Galloway, the Ui Echach Cobo on the Isle of Mann, the Dal Riata in Earra Gaidheal (East Gaels), Ath Fodhla (New Ireland), the Ui Bairrche, Strath Eireann (valley of the Irish), Gowrie (from Cenel Gabhrain), Angus (Oengus), the Lemnaig, the Eoghanachta Magh Geirginn in Fortriu, the other Eoghanachta in Ceredigion and Dyfneint (Dumnonia), the Laighn in the Lleyn peninsula, the Feni in Gwynedd (Venedotia), the Deisi in Dyfed and Brycheiniog, and the Ui Liathin in Dyfneint. The place-names from the North I mention were in use at the time of Arthur or shortly thereafter and date from that time.
Of course, in earlier centuries numerous groups from Britain had invaded/settled in Ireland and assimilated: Galenga (Galeoin), Gangani, Ui Baircche (Brigantes), Fir Bolg/Belgae, Fir Domnan (Dumnonii), Fir Manach (Manapii), and three groups of Corieltauvi. Meanwhile, the Picts, or Cruithne, or Pretani, had identifiable tribes (Fineachan, Ui Eachach Cobo, Dal nAraidi, Connaill Muirtheimhne, Cineal Foghartaigh, Loigis, Sogain, and Fothairt) surviving to this day in family names (O’Lynch, MacCartan, MacGenis, O’Mannin, O’More, O’Nolan, O’Doran, O’Lawlor, and O’Dowling, among others); the influence went both ways. ( Natty4bumpo) 1503 EDT, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
To clarify, what I mean is that the historical Arthur may have been the son of one of the colonists from Ireland, rather than Irish-born himself. Consider, for example, the early story of his interaction with Brychan (Briocan, son of the Irish Deisi king of Dyfed) of Brycheiniog. He may have even started out with guerrilla warfare much like the later William Wallace, who was himself not one of the "kings" or lords of his country but rather "Guardian of Scotland", then had better luck with more conventional tactics than the latter did, sort of like Robert the Bruce. Natty4bumpo ( talk) 17:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I'll concede from the beginning that other people may be much better informed than I am on this topic, so I'm fully prepared to be corrected here. However, I am unaware of a historians' consensus on Norma Lorre Goodrich. For that matter, I'm unaware of any real consensus on anything regarding the historicity of King Arthur (hence the nature of this article). If there is a conflict between sources, then both views are given their appropriate weights. If Goodrich is a fringe author or not reliable for some other reason, then I agree she's omitted entirely. I'm not aware that's the case though. Is it? DCB4W ( talk) 15:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
: Over the years the questions about and analyses of her work on Arthur has helped me to define the very nature of bad scholarship, as opposed to passable fiction, about King Arthur.
Goodrich is, I'm afraid, not in any way an acceptable academic reference for anything other than her own theory, and needs to be removed. As requested by Doug on-list, I'll cite from one particularly telling review:
And so on... This is from Rosemary Morris's review of Goodrich's Arthur book, in the well-regarded and learned journal Albion, 19.3 (1987), pp. 391-3 [Morris is a very highly respected academic, incidentally, and author of such widely-cited works as The Character of King Arthur (1985)]. Cheers, Hrothgar cyning ( talk) 14:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
"Allen J. Frantzen The American Historical Review, Vol. 92, No. 3 (Jun., 1987), pp. 641-642". dougweller ( talk) 06:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I've removed Goodrich, again.
'during his alleged lifetime' begs the question. As someone elsewhere has asked, " What document in
the “traditional cycle of legends” states that Arthur was a “Romano”-British leader? Geoffrey states that King Aldroen reigned in Britain fourth after Conan Meriodoc, which might suggest he was fourth in descent and so the brother to the Constantine in Welsh genealogies who was fourth in descent from Kynan. And Conan/Kynan fought for Magnus Maximus according to Geoffrey and Welsh legend. Does that make Arthur “Romano”?"
And another comment from a practising archaeologist about a possible archaeological scenario:
"In the early fifth century (if not slightly before), the provincial governments of Maxima Caesariensis and Flavia Caesariensis began to employ small numbers of mercenary soldiers, initially in coastal locations, to help with defence against increasing sea-borne raids (by Picts, Scots, even Saxons). In the chaos of the economic collapse of the early decades of the fifth century, urban communities (no longer effectively controlled by whatever remnants of provincial government carried on after the administrative staff had ceased receiving their salaries) also began to employ mercenaries against increasing piracy, now reaching inland, and perhaps even localised civil unrest and a return to Iron Age raiding practices. This takes us up to the 440s. Then we have a revolt of at least some of the mercenaries, followed by a generation or so of warfare. The mercenary communities are successful in expanding the areas they control. Perhaps they invite kinsfolk across from north Germany and Scandinavia. But the archaeological correlate of a greater westward distribution of material culture is largely illusory: instead, it's spreading out from urban centres (Dorchester-on-Thames is the example par excellence) and filling in the gaps. Some of this is accomplished by new settlement but some of it is also accomplished by the uptake of germanic ways of doing things by the indigenes (I happen to think that the majority can be attributed to this, but that's something that will continue to be controversial until we have decent DNA analysis of ancient bone, not modern populations).
By the end of the fifth century, the distribution of this germanic style material culture is virtually at its greatest extent, covering an area east of a line from Dorset to the River Trent and from there up the east side of the Pennines to Lindisfarne. It's effectively the three late Roman provinces of Maxima Caesariensis, Flavia Caesariensis and Britannia Secunda; Britannia Prima is untouched by the new material, as is Valentia (if we can identify this with Cheshire, Lancashire and Cumbria). What I think we've seen in the east is the slow destruction of the infrastructure of Roman (or sub-Roman) government in these areas and its replacement by a more haphazard, locally based and fragmented tribalism. Two two western provinces maintain their coherence (can we portray Ambrosius Aurelianus as a governor of Britannia Prima and Arthur as his magister militum? I know it's been suggested before).
The 'westward expansion' does not come to an end with the fifth century: instead, the processes by which Britannia Prima and Valentia disappear and fragment are those 'civil wars' described by Gildas. There never was a 'westward expansion': instead it was the replacement of a centralised, Roman provincial government by urban local government, slowly infiltrated by soldiers of germanic descent and their war-bands, creating proto-kingdoms whose origin myths were framed around the heroic, militaristic deeds of ancestors (real or imagined) from continental Europe. The spread of germanic material culture is to do with emulation, as I've said before. "
Dougweller ( talk) 18:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
In two different paragraphs, in adjacent sections, the article states flatly that Hengist and Horsa were historicized from two Anglo-Saxon horse gods, and were never real people, and that they were in fact real Saxon leaders. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The section on Lucius Artorius Castus contains way too much hypothetical/speculative information - it is in desperate need of a re-write. For the past several days I have been editing the standalone Lucius Artorius Castus Wikipedia entry and have gotten it into much more cohesive and factual state - it would be great if I could get some feedback on it and maybe we can incorporate some of the information here. Cagwinn ( talk) 04:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
This section is in pretty abysmal shape - especially the table - there's a lot of misinformation and mispellings of names. I suggest that it all be scrapped, or at least get a major overhaul, since the majority of these other characters are not really relevant to the historocity of Arthur himself (obvious exceptions being Ambrosius and Medraut, who are at least mentioned in early histories or chronicles. -Cagwinn 66.28.99.139 ( talk) 01:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Why is there a section on Maximus here? No serious scholar has suggested that he was the "real Arthur", so it seems silly to me that he is even mentioned here. Cagwinn ( talk) 19:02, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I think this article is flawed in that we jump from discussing the traditional 5th-6th century Arthur to proposing all of these other "real" Arthurs without any explanation as to why the traditional Arthur should be rejected. Also, most (if not all) of these identifications with other "Arthurs" are dubious at best (and only have the support of pseudo-scholars) and I think it is ridiculous to give them all equal billing here, as if they are all valid, alternative candidates (the Athrwys identification, for example, is completely bogus and based on misreadings of old documents and allegedly forged "artifacts" produced by Blackett and Wilson - it does not really belong in this article). Cagwinn ( talk) 15:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
The words Sassanian and Sassenachs are the references to the same people,being the tribesmen of Khosroau(Crosroes)Persian Emporer of the modern day Iraq.The Oxford dictionary states that the 'Sassenach' was the German (and Celtic) term of Saxon.When these Sassanian Saxons swarmed into the depopulated area of central Europe they lived in the forests west of the Elbe and South coast of the Baltic between the Engrian tribes (Angles)and the Frisians of the Netherlands.They had no towns or cities and lived in groups in the forests and became mainly pirates as described by Charlemagne's historians.They landed on the shores of Britain occupying Essex, London, Sussex and Hampshire (wessex).Their brutality and merciless slaughter gave the name Assassins to the dictionary.They slaughtered every Briton south of the Thames from Dover to Dorset.as described by Gildas.Due to the collapsing Roman empire, the youth of Britons was removed to the continent, never to return.King Brude and his pictish war parties sent regular forays slaughtering the remaining Romans and Britons nobility. Ambrosius sent several appeals to Rome for assistance. It appears that Marcian a Roman emperor must have initiated a deal with the Engrians. This is the logical explanation as the Engrian,now referred to as Angles, were called Mercians.Bede states that the Angles came in their entirety leaving not a stick behind them.The Engrians gave England its name and kept the detestable Saxons in check at all times until the death of Offa's daughter and the influx of Danes.When Offa's daughter died the Saxons kidnapped her daughter and imprisoned her in Winchester. When the Great King Canute ruled England, he made good laws that were not equalled until the 19th century. When Canute left, there was no one but the Wessex royals to hand over to, causing great concern to English and the clergy.The Normans(northmen) where Saxons and their matrimonial arrangements caused the loss of the nation and a 1000 years of slavery.At one time Offa' warriors along side the Britons went into Somerset area and attacked the army of Egbert and exiled him. Offa's men also went into the Isle of Wight and removed the Sussex Saxons who were attacking the the Jutish inhabiants, and likewise in Kent,and Tyne side. William of Malmesbury in 1130ad, told the story of the great deeds of Offa but it was related either purposely, so not to be accused of treason, or because of the difficulty of pronouncing 'th', Offa was assumed to be Arthur. I rest my case. Brodie MacBrude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.35.157 ( talk) 01:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
As our article Battle of Badon states, this date is uncertain. We shouldn't be adding one specific claim, ie " that might have taken place in 482 AD, according to one recent estimate.Ó Cróinín, Dáibhí and McCarthy, Daniel, pp. 237-8, particrly as this is pretty dubious: Barbarian migrations and the Roman West, 376-568 By Guy Halsall where Halsall says on p 522 "13 McCarthy and O Croinin (15*87-8), pp. 237-S, who argue for a date for Badon of February 482 on the basis of an interpretation of Gildas' statement about Badon as meaning tbat it took place forty-four years and one month into a chronological cycle. The eighty-four-year Easter cycle available at the time would begin the cycle in 438. This is interesting but I am not sure the text supports the reading." (sorry about the OCR errors)
Anglo-Saxon England By Malcolm Godden, Simon Keynes "-' O Croinin, 'barly Irish Annals Irom kaster-1 ables . pp. • i -8 and 80—3. See also, D. McCarthy and 6 D. Croinin, The "lost" Irish 84-year Easter Table Rediscovered", Peritia f>—7 (1087-8), 22"-42. McKittcrick questions O Croiiiin's assumption that extant Easter tables acquired their marginal annal entries from their exemplars rather than being copied retrospectively from another source (all his examples survive in other forms); McKitierick, History end Memory, ." Dougweller ( talk) 12:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I inserted some more references to other historical characters with Art- Arth- names during the period of the VI and VII centuries. I located them at the Artuir mac Aedain section, but it can be moved or expanded as well. Galdaran ( talk) 03:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I would like to point out that another very credible Arthur figure is given by cerdic of Wessex by Rudmin&Rudmin in http://celtic-twilight.com/camelot/rudmin/index.htm . This paper is being refernced more and more in published books ( for example, Ashley, _The Mammoth_Book_of_King_Arthur_, as well as other research papers available online. As such, it is possible that this deserves a mention under alternative historical Arthurs. Since I am a relative of the authors, I DON'T think it is appropriate for me to insert this to the main page. But perhaps this should be considered. 2600:1003:B10B:D6E4:CC9C:8484:B08C:104A ( talk) 14:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)mjr
This article has always lacked any clear focus and for too long it has served as a COATRACK collecting various non-notable identifications. The "Debated historicity" section of the main King Arthur article is much better. Ideally, this article should spend less time listing off "alternative" theories and more time discussing the evidence and theories of Arthur's historicity. It should be separated into different sections:
...preferably in that order. Thoughts?-- Cúchullain t/ c 17:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
We need to make the distinction here between what's credible and what's notable. An idea can be the latter without being the former. I agree with Cagwinn and others on the removal of the Athrwys and Owain Ddantgwyn sections. They are sourced nearly exclusively to the authors' own works rather than independent sources, which violates [[WP:NOTABILITY],
WP:FRINGE, and
WP:UNDUE. Obviously, however, both the
Sarmatian hypothesis and the "Artognou stone" are notable and appropriate to include here. The Sarmatian hypothesis, for instance, has been discussed in various reliable publications, and has an entry in the New Arthurian Encyclopedia. The "Artognou stone" and its claimed connections to Arthur have also been discussed in a number of sources. The fact that these theories are now rejected has no bearing on their notability to the subject at hand. The Historia Brittonum is also dismissed as reliable for this period of history, should we exclude that too?
As I said in a previous summary, both sections could use improvement (as could the rest of the article), but cleanup is the solution, not outright removal.-- Cúchullain t/ c 12:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
There are some historians who consider "King Arthur" to be a composite of multiple real individuals--possibly over multiple periods--with their separate lives and activities folded by oral tradition into a single legendary individual. This idea should be explored, although I'm not the one to do that.
Personally, I find the positing that Arthur either corresponded to a specific individual or no one at all to be a false dichotomy.
RobertGustafson ( talk) 04:35, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
on the page it says that arthur's name was not mentioned: 'or any other surviving work until 820,' However the Gogodin by Anerin metions his name. Aneditor (talk tome) 10:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
This is probably a stupid question, but the opening sentence reads
The historical basis for King Arthur It is know that the historian King arthur Had a Bad temper when it can to a knight miss Behavior their is even stories of him Murdering Hundreds of Knights just because they did heir job wrong.Historian can as yet say nothing of value about him"
That sounds just a bit off to me, but I don't have the source. Anyone be able to change that? Vyselink ( talk) 03:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
NVM. I checked the edit history and some idiot IP screwed with things. I've since reverted. Vyselink ( talk) 03:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
See Talk:King Arthur#Cuneglas and his article. We've probably completely established what the line in Gildas meant,—it's simultaneously equating Cuneglas with Boötes driving the Great Wain ( Ursa Major) and "Arcturus" guarding the "Bear" (alt names for both figures at the time, though now Arcturus is usually only one of the stars), calling him lord of Din Arth, a Sub-Roman fortress that commanded the coast near the mouth of the Clwyd—although it's possible there might be a fourth or fifth level to the pun as well, if "Arcturus" was his or "Bear" someone else's nickname. For what it's worth, " Arcturus" is one of the linguistically viable candidates for Arthur having originated as someone's epithet. — LlywelynII 01:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm new to the King Arthur project, but I would like to get things going. There are some theories proposed by Rachel Bromwich and others about a Northern Arthur. The theory is discussed on the Arthuriana page: http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/historicity/arthurappendix.htm. Would it be OK to include a summary of this theory? Another proponent is Dr. Flint Johnson, who advocates these theories in the works Origins of Arthurian Romances (2012) and Evidence of Arthur (2014). Would these be considered credible enough to use in the article? PhiChiPsiOmega ( talk) 01:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The third reference says "Green 1998; Padel 1994; Green 2007b, chapters five and seven." but there is no indication of what works are actually intended. DuncanHill ( talk) 01:23, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move per request.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 22:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Historical basis for King Arthur → Historicity of King Arthur – In the interests of WP:CONSISTENCY, this is the only article named "Historical basis for" something. Unless there's a nuance between "Historical basis for" and "Historicity of" that I'm overlooking, I suggest bringing this title in line with Historicity of Jesus and Historicity of Muhammad. These seem to be the only directly comparable articles, and this one is in Category:Historicity already. -- BDD ( talk) 13:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Cunotamos as 'Great Dog' is surely incorrect. The first syllable is akin to modern Welsh 'cyn' = fore, before. Cf. Welsh 'cyntaf' = first. The personal name really means 'foremost'. WallHeath ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:30, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
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That section badly needs to be trimmed, probably by merger to other articles. It's the longest section in the article, and is about 25–30% of the total article aside from the lead, but is not a strong theory, and half the material in the section is off-topic (because there is no actual connection between Casta and Sarmatians in Britain). See also previous discussions on this page about focus, splitting, merging, etc.
We should have an article (and probably do somewhere) on the theory that Alan–Sarmatian–Nart Roman conscripts had a strong influence on the Arthurian legends; this material should merge there, as it has nothing to do with historicity of Arthur. I see no material on this at
Nart sagas, so much of it should probably go there, as it is a
WP:COATRACK in this article. (The theory is dubious but vaguely possible. It seems more likely that similar legends were in various places and survive to the present in fragmentary form that isn't universally consistent, producing coincidental, isolated pockets of similarity. If this didn't happen, then Joseph Campbell, Robert Graves, and James George Frazer would have had a whole lot less to write about. There's also a lot of confirmation bias at work; fans of the Sarmatian hyphothesis don't have an answer for the fact that the Nart sagas are missing an endless list of other elements from the Arthurian cycle, like an immortal wizard, a prophecy of the king's return, a round table, yadda yadda.)
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
18:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
There's another well-developed idea, that Arthur was actually a king or warlord in the Strathyclyde and Northumbria area, which was Brythonic in that era. I read a book on this some time around the early 2000s, but mis-remember which one it was, and I don't know how well it's been received since publication. Some aspects of it were that it's more plausible as a location of "Camelot" than places like Colchester because it's removed from Anglo-Saxon-invaded areas; it might explain the presence of many Northern British names in the stories, which aren't as Welsh-dominated as is commonly believed; the area is still close enough to Glastonbury for common Arthurian association of the place to remain plausible; and the Isle of Man is nearby and could have been the Arthurian Avalon. I don't recall what evidence was presented in detail for the overall idea. Someone hot to work on this article, however, could get into this and include this hypothesis for completeness, since it's the most recent one, and it may have had an influence on the short-lived semi-recent TV series (the one with Eva Green). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
SNAAAAKE!!, the following lead sentence is a bit long: "Arthur first appears in historical context as a soldier fighting against the invading Saxons in 5th-6th century Sub-Roman Britain in a text written more than three centuries after his supposed period of activity." Consider the following: "In historical context, Arthur first appears in 5th-6th century Sub-Roman Britain as a soldier fighting against the invading Saxons. The text depicts an era more than three centuries after his supposed period of activity." I felt clarity was needed to distinguish whether the text was actually written/authored three centuries after his supposed period of activity or if the written text just depicts that time frame.
Atsme
✍🏻
📧
18:45, 12 October 2018 (UTC) Nevermind. 16:27, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I just noticed Riothamus lacks references. But there are some at /info/en/?search=Riothamus#Riothamus_as_King_Arthur_or_Ambrosius_Aurelianus SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 17:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Higham, Nicholas J., King Arthur: The Making of the Legend, Yale University Press, 2018, p. 39:
Section and issue.
Another potential candidate for the historical King Arthur has to be Ardaric, King of the Gepids. If so, the legend of King Arthur would not be rooted in indigenous British history, but would instead be, somewhat ironically, a Germanic import. In other words, not only would King Arthur not really have repelled Germanic invaders, his legend, paradoxically, may have arrived along with those invaders. Nevertheless, it is by no means uncommon for a people to hear a tale which originated elsewhere, and then to refashion that tale so it better suits their needs and aspirations as a people.
The likeness between the name “Ardaric” (or “Ardaricus”) and “Arthur” or (“Arturius”) is plain to observe. Given that the exact origin of the name “Arthur” remains a matter of intense debate, the name “Ardaric” must be seen as a plausible candidate. Moreover, it is not particularly likely that the actual name of the historical figure would have been properly preserved in oral or literary tradition by the time the alleged events relating to King Arthur were finally recorded. After all, it was a full 300 years between when Arthur is first mentioned in any surviving text (Historia Brittonum, 9th Century) [1], and when he is alleged to have actually lived (late 5th, early 6th Century). [2] As a name passes through time and space, it is bound to be gnarled and deformed.
It is also quite possible that the glaring similarities between the names “Arthur” and “Ardaric” simply impelled local peoples to assign King Ardaric the name “Arthur” (or "Arturius"). There is certainly nothing stopping a people from assigning foreign military commanders more familiar local names. In other words, “Arthur” may very well be a Celtic or native British name, assigned to a somewhat exotic, albeit storied military commander who possessed a name that sounded something like, or even a lot like, a locally used name. When people enter new countries or regions the local people often distort their names to reflect local norms, and in some cases give them entirely new names. Thus, the name “Ardaric” does not have to be the etymological source of the name “Arthur” for the historical King Ardaric to be the inspiration for the myth of King Arthur.
Furthermore, the name Ardaric is assumed to represent Germanic Hardu-reiks ("hart" in Old High German, meaning "brave" or "strong", combined with "reiks", Gothic for "ruler" or "king", closely related to Celtic "rig" or "rix"). [3] [4] Danish historian Gudmund Schütte tentatively identified the Heiðrek of Germanic legend with the historical Gepid king, Ardaric. [5] [6] King Heidrek was one of the main players in the Hervarar Saga concerning the magic sword, Tyrfing. [7] Therefore, both King Ardaric and King Arthur are claimed to have possessed magic swords. Since there are only so many “magic swords” in European mythology, the coincidence is a considerable one.
Thus, we have undeniable similarities in name, we have clear parallels in what they represent as noble military underdogs, in both cases an autochthonous king whose people were being dominated and subjugated, rising up and repelling allochthonous invading hordes (Ardaric and his allies defeated the Huns at the Battle of Nedao in 454 AD [8]), we have historical concurrency in that both Ardaric and Arthur are said to have lived during roughly the same time period (Ardaric lived during the mid 5th Century, whereas Arthur is said to have lived during the late 5th, early 6th Century), and we have a strong coincidence in that both are said to have been European kings who wielded a magic sword (Excalibur and Tyrfing).
It is impossible to think that news of Ardaric’s victory over the Huns would not have circulated widely throughout Europe, especially amongst Germanic peoples speaking mutually intelligible Germanic tongues. We should therefore expect those accounts to have been recycled and reformulated over the centuries in whatever lands Germanic peoples found themselves. Anglo-Saxon invaders/settlers of the British Isles, who would have begun arriving in the mid 5th Century, right around when Ardaric defeated the Huns in East-Central Europe, most certainly would have possessed and brought with them some knowledge of his momentous mutiny against, and military triumph over, his Hunnish overlords. That story may very well have trickled down into Celtic Briton communities, perhaps even serving as inspiration for native clans restless and discontent under Anglo-Saxon rule.
King Ardaric of the Gepids must therefore be viewed as a potential historical candidate for the legend of King Arthur. Indeed, Ardaric seems perhaps the most plausible candidate of all the leading candidates, and the one who has perhaps the most in common with the fictive British king of lore.
Debate on whether too much synthesis and original research:
Firstly, there is no actual ban on original research and synthesis on Wikipedia. There is only a professed ban on it. It is not a real ban, in part because it is virtually impossible to enforce. The notion that there is no allowance for original thought on Wikipedia is just laughable. I see original thought on here all the time. Everyone does. Moderators on here seem to be very selective about what they will allow and why.
Secondly, a strict prohibition on synthesis and original research on this topic is simply absurd. This entire article is almost all laughable speculation. Everyone reading understands that the claims are but hypotheses and the conclusions drawn are highly speculative. The only limitation imposed on additions to this article should be plausibility of the conclusion and reliability of the premises (good citation).
I have cited my truth claims (the "facts" that constitute my premises) and Ardaric is at least as plausible a historical candidate as the others mentioned on this list. No more should be required. It is not like there is a glut of potential historical figures out there, or that this article is at risk of becoming excessively lengthy or overfilled with candidates. People are not exactly coming out of the woodwork on this one to add to the list. There is simply no reason to limit the candidates only to those unlikely candidates some scholar has speculatively put forth at some point in the past. The nature of the article (conjecture) is inconsistent with the no synthesis, no original thought standard. It is simply an absurd standard in light of the topic. It makes zero sense. It is completely unsuited for a subject such as this. Indeed, developing an argument and citing the premises adequately is no different than what the original authors being cited have themselves done, although my contribution is more thorough and persuasive than some of those citations, since some of those authors are engaged in what is, frankly, wild speculation, with little basis in anything substantive.
Anyhow, the essence of this article is speculation, not fact. That distinguishes articles like this from most other wikipedia articles, which are very much fact-centered. The nature of the article must influence rules on contributions. It must. Conjecture does not become more reliable simply because someone wrote it down in a book somewhere. It is still conjecture. Since all the people on this list are conjecture, not fact, or anything remotely akin to it, plausibility (coupled with adequate citation) should be the primary limitation on additions. My candidate is more than plausible. Indeed, he is arguably more plausible than the other candidates on the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6c67:5d7f:a300:5dec:70df:24d4:1a5f ( talk • contribs) 00:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
References
1) The ban is not real. It is essentially fictive. It is a vague, general rule that is and must invariably be selectively applied. It is meant to deter claims with insufficient basis in fact or research (the premises to my thesis are basically all sourced). The rule is not meant to be enforced strictly. Applying the rule in this context is particularly absurd. *All of the candidates are highly conjectural already.* This isn't an article about facts, it is an article about possibilities.
2) "Reputable", "published" sources. LOL. Baseless conjecture that was once written down in a book. Literally anywhere, any time, any book, and no matter how baseless the conjecture = "Reputable", "published". Laughable. Truly laughable.
3) Oh, I'm sure you would be happy to block me. There is a very strong authoritarian streak amongst wikipedia mods. It is quite obvious that people who go around policing wikipedia articles in their free time (not sure they have any other time) are being strongly selected for certain personality traits (not unlike certain professions - consider law enforcement). You folks clearly lust over power and control. The thought of it in your hands just makes you giddy, doesn't it? I suspect this is due to a lack of power over your own lives. Pitiful really. Needless to say, you should be kept as far away from power as humanly possible.
4) There is no reason to limit the list to those folks who authors have previously speculated could be the historical inspiration for King Arthur. All the candidates are highly, highly speculative. Plausible candidates should not be kept off the list when implausible candidates are already on it. They especially should not be kept off the list simply because no one has made the claim prior, or made a compelling argument for the claim. It is irrational, unnecessary, & unbefitting the issue.
Good day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6c67:5d7f:a300:5dec:70df:24d4:1a5f ( talk • contribs) 17:55, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- I didn't say my comments were anything new. Whether they are new or not does not make them any less true. My arguments are particularly strong in this context, since the candidates are obviously hypothetical and based in conjecture.
- I did improve the article. I added a very plausible historical figure to an utterly wanting list. You made it worse because you enjoy enforcing "rules" that are utterly inappropriate for the context, and which are not really rules so much as guidelines. Indeed, you yourself are now saying they are basically "guidelines". Except the very nature of guidelines is such that they are not hard rules, which is and was my very point.
- You revealed that you enjoyed throwing your weight around on here ("I am happy to" - a very revealing choice of words), which I have no doubt is true, and then when I called you out on it, you pretended you didn't really enjoy it. Whatever you say, man.
- The prohibition on drawing conclusions not contained in the source material is essential to maintaining Wikipedia's reliability as an encyclopedia (I understand that). Wikipedia doesn't want contributors stating more than what is claimed in the source material, because that is problematic in truth-centered, fact-oriented contexts. However, that restriction is meant for articles that are actually asserting things, and as such are truth-centered. This article is simply not asserting [objective] truths (as is the case with most encyclopedia articles), it is merely putting forth and/or documenting hypotheses. Everyone reading the article understands that. As such, Wikipedia's credibility would not and could not be harmed by including some original research and original thought on such subjects. Wikipedia can't get some fact (or historical matter) wrong that is not anything remotely like a fact. As such, its reputation and trustworthiness could not possibly suffer thereby. Contributors also can not assert some truth (conclusion) inappropriately where they are not even asserting a truth, so much as setting forth a claim that all reasonable observers would understand to be an obviously unsubstantiated, and perhaps even unsubstantiatable, hypothesis. Open speculation can not be unreliable because the nature of speculation is such that what is being claimed is uncertain.
- I understand that original thought/research is not appropriate for most wikipedia/encyclopedia articles/contexts, but it should be tolerated here. My contribution is a fair one. I'm wasting time? I think you are. The addition should never have been removed, and we should not be quibbling about it here. The contribution should have been tolerated from the outset, and it should be put back up. You are just following rules for the sake of following rules, without regard for context and whether those rules are appropriate for the context, and despite the fact that they are not really even rules so much as guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6c67:5d7f:a300:5dec:70df:24d4:1a5f ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
The article states "The academic consensus today is that King Arthur was a mythological or folkloric figure, and not an actual individual." This, however, is not true. Aside from citing only a single source in making such a grand assertion, nowhere else aside from Wikipedia makes the same claim. Rather the direct contrary and, on the King Arthur page (before I began editing) it has long stated that "because historical documents for the post-Roman period are scarce, a definitive answer to the question of Arthur's historical existence is unlikely." In short, there is a glaring disconnect between the Historicity of King Arthur page and that of many established Encyclopædias such Britannica as well as with the Wiki's own page on King Arthur. Ghmyrtle, Doug Weller, I await your judgement.-- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 19:38, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
"The historicity of King Arthur has been debated both by academics and popular writers. While there have been many suggestions that the character of Arthur may be based on one or more real historical figures, the view of most academic historians today is that King Arthur was a mythological or folkloric figure."
I think it is worth adding the views of other historians.
In the 21st century opinion has moved decisively in favour of the skeptics such as Myres and Dumville.
I agree with Ghmyrtle, and you bring up an excellent point Dudley Miles. I propose that a section be added to the article detailing the historiography of the academic debate regarding King Arthur's existence. -- Bard Cadarn ( talk) 14:21, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The academic consensus seems to pivot on a lack of mention in Gildas and Bedes. Yet the earliest title attributed to Arthur in Historia Brittonum is dux bellorum and in Annales Cambriae is soldier - a title attributed to him in some Welsh folktales as well - in other words a military commander serving a leader. He could have served leaders like Ambrosius or the kings Gildas condemns and so not necessarily worth mention in a list of leaders. Another possibility is that 'Arthur' is a nickname derived from 'bear' and he is in the text under his real name - he could be Ambrosius, or alternatively one of the kings condemned is called a dragon (for pendragon?) and another called a bear (for Arthur?) either one could be him. For an alternative to this Graham Phillips who I know is not very reputable but makes the simple suggestion that he is the unnamed uncle connecting the two. And then there is there Caradoc of Llancarfans 'Life' which while as fanciful as Monmouth could just like Monmouth have a kernel of truth from sources now lost in its claim of a personal connection and conflict between the Arthur and Gildas - if so that would explain the lack of mention, and if Arthur has a connection to those two kings it would even explain the hate directed at them too. Has any of this been considered in academia, is there any way to include it? LamontCranston ( talk) 11:28, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy says that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." WP:PSTS
Several of the sources that recent versions of the article cites are not of high quality:
That doesn't mean that what these sources say is wrong, but that they are not good sources for this information, and should not be used in the article. -- Macrakis ( talk) 15:37, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles, Ghmyrtle, Nicknack009, and Bard Cadarn: as you all have been involved in a related discussion, would you please look at these two articles, including my recent edits to Breeze whose article I think is still problematical? He seems overused at Camlann. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 12:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC) I knew I forgot one, sorry User:Macrakis. Doug Weller talk 12:16, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
It claims/implies that King Arthur was not just not an actual single person, but not even a character inspired by any historical figure or even any previous legend at all, and states that's what scientists believe today as in the current century (quote: "or a composite of any of these people as well as other figures and myths. Academic historians have not supported these hypotheses in the 21st century"). Not only it's very dubious (since many other Arthurian characters are clearly based on / inspired by figures considered historical and by legendary characters, not invented from thin air), but here's for example Miles Russell in 2020 (and more exactly 1 day ago) identifying what he believes were the 5 historical inspirations for the version by Geoffrey: https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/where-is-camelot-where-arthurs-court-camelot-castle/ (scroll down for the video, apparently YouTube is blacklisted on Wikipedia which is ridiculous). -- 5.173.106.61 ( talk) 20:00, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
"Historia Brittonum lists 12 battles fought by Arthur and gives him the title of dux bellorum (war commander or leader), saying that Arthur fought "alongside the kings of the Britons", rather than that Arthur was himself a king."
This statement is not exactly true. The Nennius text is in Latin. And it is somewhat ambiguous since it can be read to mean 'Arthur fought alongside the other kings of the Britons but he was their war leader'.
In other words it can be read to mean that Arthur too was a king, but it was he who led all the other kings in the war.
Always worth checking the original text. 78.150.38.110 ( talk) 19:11, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The fundamental problem is not accurately quoting an English translation of what 'Nennius' wrote, but establishing what 'Nennius actually meant when he wrote: "tunc Arthur pugnabat contra illos in illis diebus cum regibus Brittonum, sed ipse erat dux bellorum".
'dux bellorum' for example is not self-evidently a formal title but just as plausibly is no more than a generic term for something like 'commander in chief'.
Nor does Nennius actually state that Arthur wasn't one of the Kings of the Britons. This awkward Latin sentence can easily be read as implicitly meaning that that he was one of them, but that in the war he led them all.
Safest to simply and factually say that what Nennius meant is not clear and thus debateable, that differing interpretations are possible, and to quote the Latin original alongside more than one English translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.38.110 ( talk) 09:56, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
That alternative interpretation of what Nennius meant can be found (and quoted from) on page 111 of Rodney Castleden's book King Arthur the Truth Behind the Legend. It can be read on-line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.217.179 ( talk) 12:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I repeat what i said in the talk page of the Battle Camlann:
Andrew Breeze argued about an historical Arthur in 537, and commented (in a paper in 2015, and his book "Battles of Britain" in 2020) of the coincidence of dates between the following events:
-535-536 : /info/en/?search=Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536
-c. 536: global famine caused by the volcanic winter (18 months without summer), recorded by Procopius.
-De Exedio of Gildas would have been written in 536, because he mentioned in the text :‘certain thick mist and black night’ which ‘sits upon the whole island’ of Britain. but no famine
-537: Welsh Annal(Annales Cambriae) about "great mortality in Britain and Ireland", and Camlann.
Breeze interpretation is that the volcanic winter caused a famine(historical),and that the famine would have caused Camlann (Breeze argued that it was a cattle raid in North Britain).
Research in Norway concluded that the climate event of 535-536 was also catastrophic there, the famine(and perhaps the Justinian plague of 542 ) halved the population and make a great loss of technology for centuries:
About Britain I found the next research about the matter:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0078172X.2016.1195600?journalCode=ynhi20 :Breeze paper of 2015
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328448644_Camlann_and_537 : counter-arguments of Breeze paper, disputing his interpretation of the "cattle raid", but agree with an historical Camlann (but with uncertain date).
I'm not expert in the matter, but the period (mid VI century) was very dramatic:
1.-In 535-536 happened the volcanic winter(because a volcano in Central America), a global event(recorded in Byzantium and China), with subsequent famine.
2.-In 541 happened the Justinian Plague in all Europe: /info/en/?search=Plague_of_Justinian
3.- And next, TWO additional volcanic winters happened in 539/540 and 547: /info/en/?search=Late_Antique_Little_Ice_Age
I don't know if there exists more recent research about this period (mid VI century) in Britain. So I added the Breeze arguments to the historicity section. My personal opinion: The Arthurian debate has begun again.
>>The connection to dateable historical weather/famine/disease events is definitely interesting. Hopefully more work will be published either supporting or discrediting the idea.
And, of course, the Battle of Camlann could be historical even if Arthur is not.
(Just to make my own bias clear, I think there was in one sense a historical Arthur - in the sense, and only the sense, that the Battle of Badon is historical even if Camlann isn't, and somebody had to be the Romano-British commander, and Arthur is the only name we have - but that nothing historical can be now known about him. The composite-character idea makes way more sense to me than any of the specific identifications.)
Vultur~enwiki (
talk)
02:18, 24 April 2023 (UTC)