This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There. At least it's out of the way. - Silence 03:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
"Revert obsolete "an historical" phrasing. Until we start using "an horrendous", "an hospitable", "an hilarious", etc., no." Or until we start talking about non-toxic erbicides, orrible monsters, etc. P0M 04:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
"A historical" is just plain wrong. "An historical" is the correct way. If wikipedia uses "a historical" it will just make wikipedia look ignorant. 207.157.121.50 02:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey
It's not "just plain wrong." The word "an" has as its sole reason for existence the avoidance of problems involved in pronouncing two vowel sounds in sequence. Saying "a ape", "a edition," "a initiative," "a opinion," "a Uzi", etc. can be done, but I suspect there is even an instinctive tendency to stick some consonant sound between, e.g., "a" and "edition." If I try to say "a edition" at normal speed I find myself saying "a yedition." The same "y" sound (or a glottal stop) comes up in the middle of "I imagine." If one drops one's "Hs" and says "erb" rather than "herb" (As in 'Erb Teagarten), then it is natural and appropriate to use "an." Using "an" before "history" is just as senseless as saying "an yellow blossom." Following rules blindly makes for wierd spellings, too. ;-) P0M 19:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anybody here know how the Martin (atheist)-Parrish (Christian) debate of 1993-1994 ended?
From this link we know that Parrish (Christian) seemed to have had the last say: Martin -Parrish debate.
I am interested to know because it offers very good material for this article.
Parrish's first critique appears here: Parrish's book review. Arturo Cruz 06:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Let's not get into a revert war. At least, not until we've tried talking this over. :) My latest edit was my attempt at a compromise: I conceded that not all three points are insignificantly disputed, and moved "perceived" to the factor of there not being any physical evidence of Jesus' existence (since many Christians claim surviving relics provide this evidence, though all of these relics are heavily disputed). "Perceived" isn't necessary to mention in reference to the other two factors, since next to no one seriously believes that there are detailed contemporary accounts of Jesus' life from sources other than his followers, and just as few seriously believe that there are no similarities between the Gospels and various contemporary mythologies, even most of those who believe that the Gospels are the literal truth (and who have at least some background in those fields, of course).
The fact that your latest edit said "NPOV The dissent IS VERY significant, it's arrogant to pretend it's insignificant on ALL these "factors"" makes me think that you didn't read my last edit, since it didn't say that all of those factors are more or less undisputed (as much as anything relating to Biblical historicity is, at least), just two of them.
However, either way I agree entirely with Paul Barlow's edit summary ("the passage is a summary of an argument. "Perceived" is redundant."); thanks for explaining my original reason for removing "perceived" from the passage much better than I did. And, again, the "perceived" is still there in both of our edits: we've just moved it to the only factoid it (arguably) applies to in a meaningful way. - Silence 21:04, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Well you still seem to be making an assumption that only your pov on Josephus is valid, about what is a very controversial matter, one that Josephus on Jesus in fact leaves open. Josephus was not Christian, but may well have written a paragraph, with minimal detail, on Jesus, something like the Arabic version. The Greek versions were obviously the same passage, heavily interpolated by a Christian translator. The point of the edit seems to be making the case that there was definitely NO serious corroborating evidence from non-Christians --- which is definitely only a perception, and sort of dismissing the entire above section with a single wave. Codex Sinaiticus 01:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
No, really it's only a reognition that the point IS disputed and should be worded neutrally and not make assumptions on behalf of the reader! Codex Sinaiticus 01:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Some scholars argue that Jesus may never have existed outside of the mythological realm at all, based on a lack of reliable physical evidence, a lack of detailed contemporary accounts of Jesus' life from sources other than Jesus' followers, and similarities between early Christian writings and many contemporary mythological accounts.
I'd just like to point out that even if Josephus actually wrote about Jesus, he could in no way be considered a contemporary account; Josephus was not even born when Jesus was supposed to have been put to death, and he wrote over 60 years after that. Jayjg (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
"detailed contemporary accounts of Jesus' life from sources other than his followers" If such accounts exist, *please* name them in the article. Thank you. -- DavidCary 03:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that it is ridiculous to think that Jesus is simply inspired by myths. I might point out that many of these myths probably were made up after the historical accounts of Jesus were written. Also, even if they were there "before" the historical accounts, it is completely logical to believe that the similarities between the accounts and mythology are coincidental. There are many examples of this. The similarities between two stories that were written at different times don't mean that events from one of the stories were plagarised by the other; it is most likely that the author of the one accused of plagarism simply had not heard of the other story, or he had but did not realize how similar his story was to the other, much less with a historical account! Scorpionman 02:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
An school of thought starting in the 19th century that has to be presented in Wikipedia: see: http://www.radikalkritik.de/ Andreas 23:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe the following sentence from the first paragraph is editorial in nature and biased towards those who dispute Jesus' existence. If no one objects, I propose to delete it. Does anyone mind?
As a Lutheran, I'm not sure of the last statement, but you are welcome to your opinion. 8-) As one of German ancestry, I suspect he and his scholastic collegues had too high a view of literate cultures and too low a view oral cultures. They also assert Pontius Pilate didn't exist -- until a plaque in Caesarea turned up with his name on it in the 1960s. 8-)
I'm not questioning the usefulness of this article, although almost all scholars, including secular ones, believe that there is no question that Jesus existed, was born in Palestine during the last years of the reign of Herod the Great and died in Jerusalem by crucifixion during the reign of Tiberius Caesar. See my tour of encyclopedia articles on the talk:Jesus page.
If you'd like, I can cite one scholar after another, including those who have little respect for the reliability of the Gospels. I am unaware of anyone with scholarly credentials writing in the last fifty years who advocates the position that Jesus did not exist. I'd appreciate any citations to that effect if I'm wrong.
The details of his life beyond this are in dispute by all manner of scholars at almost all points, but that is not the declared purpose of this article. This article is supposed to be about the existence of Jesus, the evidence for and against it and the opinion of those who question it. The article on the Historical Jesus is for that purpose.
So therefore, to say it is difficult to determine is a value judgment held by only a very few. In fact, it has always been a minority view. So it is very biased, a little on the lecturing side, too, to make this claim. The sentence should go and the reader allowed to draw their own conclusion from a balanced presentation of the evidence. -- CTSWyneken 14:31, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the attempt. The problem is that by far most scholars think that the existence of Jesus is very easy to determine. If you'd like, I can quote a few of the most prominent on this score. So, the statement is, in fact, a POV, and a very small minority one at that. To take it out does not harm the sense of the rest of the article, which describes both sides of the issue. To leave it in is to give the impression that scholarship generally supports the notion, which it does not.
As to the reliability of the texts, many people find them quite reliable. NPOV demands more that just a claim that they are not. In an encyclopedia like this, who is right and wrong is the judgment call of reader. Were it not, I would argue to delete the whole article, since the scholarly opinion of today is that Jesus' existence is settled fact. But some scholars had in the past argued the other way, so NPOV demands the question be explored.
So, let's delete the sentence. Save the arguments about where and when Jesus was born for other articles, as the scope paragraph at the beginning of our article suggests. -- CTSWyneken 21:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be great store set in not offending Christians in the comments and within the Article, however, the word Pagan is used in the article:
Here's what the opening paragraph of the Wikipidia page has to say about the word Pagan: Within a Christian context, paganism (from Latin paganus) and heathenry are catch-all terms which have come to connote a broad set of spiritual/religious beliefs and practices of a natural religion, as opposed to the Abrahamic religions based on scriptures. These beliefs, which are not necessarily compatible with each other, are usually characterized by polytheism and animism. Often, the term has pejorative connotations, comparable to infidel and Kafir in Islam.
It would appear that Pagan is an offensive word to millions of people around the world. My own view is that it is rather condesending. It is also very nondescript. But most of all, in an encyclopedia, simply to jumble up "suggested facts" into a nondescriptive term like Paganism does nothing to allow further research. Infact its lack of citation actually stifels further research. It appears to be used, whether intentionally or not, as a gratuituous comment.
Please consider rewriting for clarity of research or removal from the article for its offensive implications.
Like I said, many of us find the expression Pagan offensive. What are the names of the Pagan religions being reffered to in the article. I bet the people wo worshipped in those religions have a word for them. Its interesting that there is a big warning at the front of the Historicity article, via that page I arrived in this discussion page. But a satanish perspective can be kept out an article on Jesus....see somewhere above in the endless discussion. It seems there is great care taken not to offend Christians. Why is the same courtisy not extended to others, i.e., the majority of the population of the world. I have the impression that the article on historicity was written by someone with a Bias, who has convinced themselves of their extensive knowledge. But who has failed to write a neutral article. My next question is, why is this article even written, what is its relevance in an encyclopedia or any neutral medium outside of a Christian debating society for that matter.
The article is about as clear and informative on the "Historicity" of Jesus, as the use of the word "Pagan" is, to discribe Zoroastrianism, Summerian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Hinduism, Buddism,Druidism etc etc etc world religions. If I didnt know any better, I would be left believing that the majority of humanity is and always has been members af a great Pagan religion.
The neutrality is compromised and the writers have left themselves exposed to the criticism of having an agenda or even worse, not having a good grasp of their subject.
Pagan, is a word which can be used to discribe me, by condecending christians. I have been called this by christians and I am offended by it. Would you please extend the same courtisy to me and others like me, as you have to christians. BUt not wishing to censor your article, I would suggest you reference the religions you are referring to.
"I have the impression that the article on historicity was written by someone with a Bias, who has convinced themselves of their extensive knowledge." Yes, you are absolutely correct. You may be astonished to learn that 100% of all Wikipedia articles are written by one or more human beings. According to WP:NPOV, every Wikipedia editor has a bias. I have the impression that other encyclopedias also include articles written by human beings. Please help us improve this and other articles. -- DavidCary 03:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The intro to the srticle (the bit in italics) says it's concerned with the actual historical existence of the man Jesus; but the article then forgets this and spends its entire length discussing his nature instead. It needs to be substantially shortened and focussed on what it claims to be about.
My edit summary on this date at 18:46 should have read "removed 'linkfarm' template"...my mistake. KHM03 18:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The edits made by myself (and apparently one or two others) were to remove inaccuracies and the extreme POV bent apparent in the article. Much in the article was only nominally related; lengthy discussions of peripheral issues added nothing but POV to the article; unsupported claims are also not needed. Please discuss before restoring POV. Thanks... KHM03 22:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't care how long they were there...they're still POV. The article isn't about Josephus...mention what he has to offer and move on, don't dawdle. The stuff was deleted because it wasn't germaine to the subject at hand, not to cover anything up. Let the "Jesus didn't exist" position argue for itself; don't try and shore it up. KHM03 23:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
But the idea that Jesus didn't exist is so fringe, such a tiny, tiny minority, that mainstream scholarship doesn't even give it credence. Even the "liberal" Jesus Seminar affirms that he existed. It idn't mainstream and barely scholarly. We need to be honest about that reality. KHM03 23:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
stantive in respect to the field, for example, New Perspectives on Paul is pushed mainly by two individuals, BOTH of whom ( James Dunn, who is the Durham University Professor of Theology, and Tom Wright (theologian), who is the current Bishop of Durham) are at Durham University, and BOTH of whom are part of its theology department, and BOTH of whom live within 1 mile of each other. Mainstream scholarship DOES give the Jesus-didn't-exist view credence, but, much in the same was as the Omphalos hypothesis, it isn't very practical to considering other theological questions - "how does Jesus fit into the problem of evil? the question can't be asked, he didn't exist. do you suppose Jesus spoke aramaic or hebrew? no he didn't, he didn't exist. was Jesus a vegetarian? no, he didn't exist" and for this reason it is put to one side - not discounted just something that gets too much in the way of carrying out other theological study for it to be practical to involve it, much in the same way as people disregard Quantum Electrodynamics when trying to work out which fuse has blown, or disregard Biochemistry when considering whether it is better to have chips or ice cream for dinner. The Jesus Seminar consisted predominantly of Christians; for it to have concluded that Jesus didn't exist, regardless of the merit of the position, is frankly ridiculous.
The notion that Jesus didn't exist is a tiny minority in academia. Fringe. Not taken too seriously by respected academics. We needn't argue about that; it's reality. So, let's present the view (or views) which scholars do affirm. I'll grant you that academia by and large does not affirm the deity of Christ, which is a faith affirmation. And it can say little conclusively about his resurrection, which, again, is in the realm of faith, other than to say that something apparently happened which inspired the early Church. But academia does affirm that Jesus lived, and he lived in first century Palestine and was a Jew. There's no serious dispute about that. Now, there are those who hold these fringe views - such as "Jesus never existed" - tiny minorities who have found little acceptance in academia. Should we mention them? Yes. Certainly. But let's not pretend that their ideas are mainstream or that they are held in high regard by legitimate scholars. Let's call these views what they are - fringe minorities - and move on. If the arguments have merit, evidence will grow, academia will become convinced, and time will prove them correct. To date, that hasn't happened. Not even close. Let's just be honest about that. Fair? I'm not "evangelizing" the "Jesus existed" position; I'm simply stating the position of mainstream scholars. Your beef is with the academy, not with me. KHM03 02:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
-- eleuthero 04:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC) -- Clinkophonist 11:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
So now you are disputing factual accuracy as well? Eh? What is factually inaccurate? Clinkophonist 23:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The truth is that most historians (secular and religious) believe that while the Gospels are certainly not written as strict history or biography, they are still invaluable sources of historical information. You dispute that...you're inaccurate. Also, Bible scholars do not by and large consider the Gospels "distorted" (weasel word, there), nor do they by and large reject the supernatural and miraculous (though they may have differing explanations for them). You dispute that...you're inaccurate. I edited the sections to make them NPOV...you preferred the POV versions. You can't dispute that. KHM03 02:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see a similar edit of the Pauline epistle section. There seems to be the same variety of bias there. "majority of modern scholars" is highly deceptive ignoring whole traditions of Christians as well as a number of individual scholars within traditions that make no statement one way or the other.-- eleuthero 04:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Everything on page is not wrong...but how it is presented is pretty much disingenuous and POV, I think. Bible scholars - including many in the more liberal Jesus Seminar - do not outrightly dismiss the supernatural events in Jesus' life; they may have other explanations or at times say nothing at all. The line about "secular" scholars is also inaccurate, unsourced, and misleading, for it implies that secular scholars hold one thing and religious scholars another, calling into question the academic integrity of the religious scholars, which is WAY over the line POV. I'm sorry you disagree with the inaccuracies I pointed out...but that doesn't change their veracity. Much of what I deleted existed - seemingly - only to push or imply a particular POV. Is the discussion that graffiti in 1st century Palestine reveals little of value regarding Jesus really necessary? What's the point? Does the article suffer by its deletion? I think it's stronger and more concise. I may agree to remove the "totally disputed" template (providing more misleading information isn't inserted) and replace it with a "POV" template, which is completely justifiable. KHM03 11:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
"Palatine"...forgive me when I type quickly. Obviously, I disagree with you. I was able to point out "weasel words" which demonstrated both inaccuracy and POV. KHM03 15:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The Jesus Seminar, a very liberal group of Biblical scholars (particularly Jesus scholars), has affirmed his existence (though they have challenged the orthodox view of Jesus). Crossan and Borg are two of the seminar's most prominent scholars who affirm his existence and consider the non-existence view fringe. N.T. Wright. E.P. Sanders. Dale Allison. Robert Gagnon. All are living and are acknowledged scholars & authorities. Known names in the field. You have cited Earl Doherty...not a Biblical or Jesus scholar, whose work is not taken seriously in the "Jesus research" field. Can you name someone who actually is taken seriously?
My point is that we shouldn't simply ignore the theory that Jesus never existed, as far out as it may be. But we need to recongnize that it is a minority, fringe theory, with which the "top minds" in the field obviously disagree. Let's not portray it as a major scholarly view, for that wouldn't be accurate. Mention it...explain it...even link to the "Jesus Myth" article where the theory is discussed in greater detail...but when it comes to whether or not Jesus existed, the vast majority of scholars say, "YES!" They may not affirm the orthodox, divine Jesus, but very, very few actually doubt that he lived. Let's be honest about that. KHM03 12:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not citing Earl Doherty as the source, just the position he was the first figure to notably support in the modern world. Earl Doherty is NOT it. It isn't attack Earl Doherty himself and use that to justify disregarding the argument he proposes (commonly known as a Personal Attack, and regarded as fallacious/false/falsehood). His argument is proposed by other figures, for example.
The Jesus Seminar never met to consider the question "did Jesus exist", but instead to consider "what was Jesus really like". It wasn't in their remit. Just like the Hutton Enquiry didn't consider the question "is the government to blame; did they leak his name; was Gilligans report factual", but instead "how much blame should be put on the media, particularly the BBC". The Jesus Seminar is irrelevant as to the question of "did Jesus exist", only having something to say on "what was Jesus really like". and "what is likely to have been genuinely said"; they began with the axiom "Jesus existed" - its an axiom, not a conclusion.
You still haven't produced someone who actually attacks the position. "Do you support X" is NOT the same as "Do you attack Y" even if "Y is the oppositite of X" - "we support the belief in Jesus' existance" is NOT "the position that Jesus didn't exist is untenable, and poor scholarship". These contain substantively different words, and meaning. So I ask you again, who, being still alive, and from the world of academic biblical scholarship (not amateurs such as Kenneth Kitchen, a professional Egyptologist), actively attacks the "Jesus Myth" position?
And can I take your lack of a response to the not fully reliable point to be your conceding that most...think...not fully reliable is factual? Clinkophonist 12:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Rather than "heretical", which, while true, may also be interpreted as POV, could we label these "Gnostic texts" or "Non-canonical texts"? KHM03 07:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, most importantly, calling many of these texts "heretical" is simply a matter of historical accuracy...they were deemed heretical by the early Church and have carried that label for 2000 years. There may be information of value in them, but that doesn't change their status. I just thought another term might be better (such as "non-canonical"). Is heretical best? What's the community's opinion? KHM03 12:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to respond in bullets for clarity:
Clinkophonist: Please work with the community on this article. The page was changed as other editors (inc. myself) sought to remove the evident POV and inaccuracies. Most of the critical information is still in the article...just the POV stuff has been removed. There's no need for you to fly solo on this article. Let's all work together...it's possible that what you consider NPOV is actually very POV, isn't it? That's what I think we're dealing with. So let's all be part of an editing team here and not simply revert other editors' work. Thanks... KHM03 12:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
You are the one doing the major deletionism. I will continue to protect the text against your campaign of censorship. Clinkophonist 11:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
And the POV implication is that "secular" historians are unbiased and therefore have greater academic integrity than historians who hold a religious faith. That's not only completely untrue, it is POV. A simple change can eliminate that, which is what we're trying to do. Constant reverts to the POV version are not helpful. KHM03 14:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The implication KHM refers to, lies in the ambiguity of the term "secular". This is often perceived as neutral, but a historian who rejects the supernatural or the special status of Jesus (as in the opening paragraph) is not more neutral as a historian who (as a Christian) accepts Jesus as the Messiah. If such a man were termed more accurately as adhering to another, non-Christian religion (be it another religion or atheism), aynone could the question-begging and unsubstantial quality of the passge. The neutral position would be to leave it open or, and this is the actually useful thing to do as a historian, to say that he and his followers considered him the Messiah. Str1977 15:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
But Str1977's analysis is correct: the implication is that secular=neutral and religious=biased. Both can be biased; both can also be objective. I, for one, am trained in history and theology, and while I refute the idea that Jesus' miracles can be explained rationally, affirm them as a matter of faith. But to simply say "they didn't happen" can't objectively be proven without the invention of a time machine. So...the implication remains, and that's POV, and that's why we keep editing it to be NPOV. Thanks... KHM03 16:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Secular in this context means simply "does not start with a religious-view-based axiom". It does not mean that they do not consider questions of miracles, and many do. But it does mean that they avoid circular arguments and don't assume from the start that they are true before even investigating them. Clinkophonist 19:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I deleted most of the section on Josephus not because there was anything especially wrong with it, but because it seemed to duplicate the detailed discussion in the separate article. It was nearly as long as the main article itself. If I did remove anything that isn't in Josephus on Jesus, it should probably be added to that article rather than put back here. Wesley 17:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Just mentioning "Josephus appears to have wrote a passage about Jesus, but its a bit dodgy" isn't exactly covering, even in a summary, what is the main piece of evidence that "Many Christians use...as evidence that the New Testament is not the only contemporary document concerning Jesus".
Its the main piece of evidence quoted; it deserves more than a passing mention, even in a summary. What are the "internal indicators"? just leaving "internal indicators" makes it look like it is some vague and obscure thing which isn't at all obvious, which is highly misleading. Even just pointing out that Josephus remained a devout Jew would give an idea about what is so dodgy about it. And another important point is who first mentioned it, and why, and who didn't mention it. The dodgy arabic version (that's the 10th century one by Agapius for those who aren't sure what is being referred to) is also important enough to warrent mention, even if briefly. Clinkophonist 12:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The article is looking far more NPOV and without some of the accuracy issues; I would be willing to remove the "totally disputed" notice at the top if there are no other objections. KHM03 17:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Sadly, it can't happen until you're finished inserting your POV edits and inaccuracies. I guess we'll just wait till your finished and start working with others. Too bad; a real shame. KHM03 13:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Attempted some compromise / conciliatory edits on 15 Dec. Doesn't look as if Clinkophonist wants to do the same...I hope I'm wrong. KHM03 19:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I may have missed something...but does that help? KHM03 20:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Very hard to follow when you reply intext like that. But I'll try and respond.
In short, you must realize that the dominat view of experts is that Jesus existed. To say so is not POV, it's just the way it is. Someone could deny that JFK existed, but that doesn't make it so. We need to treat the "he never existed" school honestly, in context...as a minority view that doesn't carry much weight in academia. Respectfully, KHM03 23:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Clinkophonist 10:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
There's this article: Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism linked to from here and from a bunch of old talk pages, which contains a very dubious section about some serpent-god Herrut. This all stems from me finding that Herrut fella, finding absolutely no basis for him or the supposed myth in any Egyptology sources, and subsequently finding a whole lot of Christianity and Jesus related articles that reference the myth.
I've made a case against the whole thing in Talk:Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism, but since that place is deserted I figure I should also mention it here. BTW just to be clear I have no interest in historicity of Jesus, I just hate to see pseuo-Egyptian crap made up all over the place to support crazy theories. I'd like to get some consensus on what to do with that section over on that other page. Flyboy Will 20:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Friends:
From the summary at the beginning of the article, this text is supposed to be about whether Jesus existed or not and the Historical Jesus article about the discussion of what Jesus said, did or what happened to him. If this is the case, alot of the material here should be shifted to the Historical Jesus article, if it is not there already. Does anyone mind if I move and/or delete such tangental material to the Historical Jesus article? I would take care that we loose none of the discussion in the process. -- CTSWyneken 13:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
The difficulty of distinguishing which parts of Jesus' life may be historical and which may be unhistorical is one of the main obstacles for Biblical historians. Even accurate accounts of events in Jesus' life may have changed in subtle ways during re-tellings. Others may have been exaggerated on purpose, and some may even have been totally invented, possibly reinterpreted from older stories - virgin births and dying/reborn gods were common features of Pagan godmen myths, such as Osiris-Dionysus. Some notable historians have affirmed the resurrection of Jesus such as A. N. Sherwin-White, Thomas Arnold, and Michael Grant.
Thanks! I'll wait a day or two in case someone else wants to chime in.-- CTSWyneken 22:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
What do we need to do to get this removed? KHM03 21:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be something about Robert Graves' "King Jesus" in this article? Its scholarship is simply stunning. (from User:213.48.73.94)
I can only ask: If this is a serious article about the "Historicity of Jesus" where is the mention about Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera which in a few ancient fragemnts of christian opponents is claimed to have raped or seduced "Holy Mary" before her pregnacy ? One can say that is was simple slander (debatable) but there is not a SINGLE mention of it in this article. Flamarande 20:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
None of the contemporary sources quoted in this article are contemporary - i.e. at the same time as. All of them post-date the alleged date of Christ's life. The heading Contemporary sources is therefore misleading. Ian Cairns 00:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There. At least it's out of the way. - Silence 03:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
"Revert obsolete "an historical" phrasing. Until we start using "an horrendous", "an hospitable", "an hilarious", etc., no." Or until we start talking about non-toxic erbicides, orrible monsters, etc. P0M 04:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
"A historical" is just plain wrong. "An historical" is the correct way. If wikipedia uses "a historical" it will just make wikipedia look ignorant. 207.157.121.50 02:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey
It's not "just plain wrong." The word "an" has as its sole reason for existence the avoidance of problems involved in pronouncing two vowel sounds in sequence. Saying "a ape", "a edition," "a initiative," "a opinion," "a Uzi", etc. can be done, but I suspect there is even an instinctive tendency to stick some consonant sound between, e.g., "a" and "edition." If I try to say "a edition" at normal speed I find myself saying "a yedition." The same "y" sound (or a glottal stop) comes up in the middle of "I imagine." If one drops one's "Hs" and says "erb" rather than "herb" (As in 'Erb Teagarten), then it is natural and appropriate to use "an." Using "an" before "history" is just as senseless as saying "an yellow blossom." Following rules blindly makes for wierd spellings, too. ;-) P0M 19:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anybody here know how the Martin (atheist)-Parrish (Christian) debate of 1993-1994 ended?
From this link we know that Parrish (Christian) seemed to have had the last say: Martin -Parrish debate.
I am interested to know because it offers very good material for this article.
Parrish's first critique appears here: Parrish's book review. Arturo Cruz 06:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Let's not get into a revert war. At least, not until we've tried talking this over. :) My latest edit was my attempt at a compromise: I conceded that not all three points are insignificantly disputed, and moved "perceived" to the factor of there not being any physical evidence of Jesus' existence (since many Christians claim surviving relics provide this evidence, though all of these relics are heavily disputed). "Perceived" isn't necessary to mention in reference to the other two factors, since next to no one seriously believes that there are detailed contemporary accounts of Jesus' life from sources other than his followers, and just as few seriously believe that there are no similarities between the Gospels and various contemporary mythologies, even most of those who believe that the Gospels are the literal truth (and who have at least some background in those fields, of course).
The fact that your latest edit said "NPOV The dissent IS VERY significant, it's arrogant to pretend it's insignificant on ALL these "factors"" makes me think that you didn't read my last edit, since it didn't say that all of those factors are more or less undisputed (as much as anything relating to Biblical historicity is, at least), just two of them.
However, either way I agree entirely with Paul Barlow's edit summary ("the passage is a summary of an argument. "Perceived" is redundant."); thanks for explaining my original reason for removing "perceived" from the passage much better than I did. And, again, the "perceived" is still there in both of our edits: we've just moved it to the only factoid it (arguably) applies to in a meaningful way. - Silence 21:04, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Well you still seem to be making an assumption that only your pov on Josephus is valid, about what is a very controversial matter, one that Josephus on Jesus in fact leaves open. Josephus was not Christian, but may well have written a paragraph, with minimal detail, on Jesus, something like the Arabic version. The Greek versions were obviously the same passage, heavily interpolated by a Christian translator. The point of the edit seems to be making the case that there was definitely NO serious corroborating evidence from non-Christians --- which is definitely only a perception, and sort of dismissing the entire above section with a single wave. Codex Sinaiticus 01:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
No, really it's only a reognition that the point IS disputed and should be worded neutrally and not make assumptions on behalf of the reader! Codex Sinaiticus 01:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Some scholars argue that Jesus may never have existed outside of the mythological realm at all, based on a lack of reliable physical evidence, a lack of detailed contemporary accounts of Jesus' life from sources other than Jesus' followers, and similarities between early Christian writings and many contemporary mythological accounts.
I'd just like to point out that even if Josephus actually wrote about Jesus, he could in no way be considered a contemporary account; Josephus was not even born when Jesus was supposed to have been put to death, and he wrote over 60 years after that. Jayjg (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
"detailed contemporary accounts of Jesus' life from sources other than his followers" If such accounts exist, *please* name them in the article. Thank you. -- DavidCary 03:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that it is ridiculous to think that Jesus is simply inspired by myths. I might point out that many of these myths probably were made up after the historical accounts of Jesus were written. Also, even if they were there "before" the historical accounts, it is completely logical to believe that the similarities between the accounts and mythology are coincidental. There are many examples of this. The similarities between two stories that were written at different times don't mean that events from one of the stories were plagarised by the other; it is most likely that the author of the one accused of plagarism simply had not heard of the other story, or he had but did not realize how similar his story was to the other, much less with a historical account! Scorpionman 02:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
An school of thought starting in the 19th century that has to be presented in Wikipedia: see: http://www.radikalkritik.de/ Andreas 23:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe the following sentence from the first paragraph is editorial in nature and biased towards those who dispute Jesus' existence. If no one objects, I propose to delete it. Does anyone mind?
As a Lutheran, I'm not sure of the last statement, but you are welcome to your opinion. 8-) As one of German ancestry, I suspect he and his scholastic collegues had too high a view of literate cultures and too low a view oral cultures. They also assert Pontius Pilate didn't exist -- until a plaque in Caesarea turned up with his name on it in the 1960s. 8-)
I'm not questioning the usefulness of this article, although almost all scholars, including secular ones, believe that there is no question that Jesus existed, was born in Palestine during the last years of the reign of Herod the Great and died in Jerusalem by crucifixion during the reign of Tiberius Caesar. See my tour of encyclopedia articles on the talk:Jesus page.
If you'd like, I can cite one scholar after another, including those who have little respect for the reliability of the Gospels. I am unaware of anyone with scholarly credentials writing in the last fifty years who advocates the position that Jesus did not exist. I'd appreciate any citations to that effect if I'm wrong.
The details of his life beyond this are in dispute by all manner of scholars at almost all points, but that is not the declared purpose of this article. This article is supposed to be about the existence of Jesus, the evidence for and against it and the opinion of those who question it. The article on the Historical Jesus is for that purpose.
So therefore, to say it is difficult to determine is a value judgment held by only a very few. In fact, it has always been a minority view. So it is very biased, a little on the lecturing side, too, to make this claim. The sentence should go and the reader allowed to draw their own conclusion from a balanced presentation of the evidence. -- CTSWyneken 14:31, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the attempt. The problem is that by far most scholars think that the existence of Jesus is very easy to determine. If you'd like, I can quote a few of the most prominent on this score. So, the statement is, in fact, a POV, and a very small minority one at that. To take it out does not harm the sense of the rest of the article, which describes both sides of the issue. To leave it in is to give the impression that scholarship generally supports the notion, which it does not.
As to the reliability of the texts, many people find them quite reliable. NPOV demands more that just a claim that they are not. In an encyclopedia like this, who is right and wrong is the judgment call of reader. Were it not, I would argue to delete the whole article, since the scholarly opinion of today is that Jesus' existence is settled fact. But some scholars had in the past argued the other way, so NPOV demands the question be explored.
So, let's delete the sentence. Save the arguments about where and when Jesus was born for other articles, as the scope paragraph at the beginning of our article suggests. -- CTSWyneken 21:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be great store set in not offending Christians in the comments and within the Article, however, the word Pagan is used in the article:
Here's what the opening paragraph of the Wikipidia page has to say about the word Pagan: Within a Christian context, paganism (from Latin paganus) and heathenry are catch-all terms which have come to connote a broad set of spiritual/religious beliefs and practices of a natural religion, as opposed to the Abrahamic religions based on scriptures. These beliefs, which are not necessarily compatible with each other, are usually characterized by polytheism and animism. Often, the term has pejorative connotations, comparable to infidel and Kafir in Islam.
It would appear that Pagan is an offensive word to millions of people around the world. My own view is that it is rather condesending. It is also very nondescript. But most of all, in an encyclopedia, simply to jumble up "suggested facts" into a nondescriptive term like Paganism does nothing to allow further research. Infact its lack of citation actually stifels further research. It appears to be used, whether intentionally or not, as a gratuituous comment.
Please consider rewriting for clarity of research or removal from the article for its offensive implications.
Like I said, many of us find the expression Pagan offensive. What are the names of the Pagan religions being reffered to in the article. I bet the people wo worshipped in those religions have a word for them. Its interesting that there is a big warning at the front of the Historicity article, via that page I arrived in this discussion page. But a satanish perspective can be kept out an article on Jesus....see somewhere above in the endless discussion. It seems there is great care taken not to offend Christians. Why is the same courtisy not extended to others, i.e., the majority of the population of the world. I have the impression that the article on historicity was written by someone with a Bias, who has convinced themselves of their extensive knowledge. But who has failed to write a neutral article. My next question is, why is this article even written, what is its relevance in an encyclopedia or any neutral medium outside of a Christian debating society for that matter.
The article is about as clear and informative on the "Historicity" of Jesus, as the use of the word "Pagan" is, to discribe Zoroastrianism, Summerian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Hinduism, Buddism,Druidism etc etc etc world religions. If I didnt know any better, I would be left believing that the majority of humanity is and always has been members af a great Pagan religion.
The neutrality is compromised and the writers have left themselves exposed to the criticism of having an agenda or even worse, not having a good grasp of their subject.
Pagan, is a word which can be used to discribe me, by condecending christians. I have been called this by christians and I am offended by it. Would you please extend the same courtisy to me and others like me, as you have to christians. BUt not wishing to censor your article, I would suggest you reference the religions you are referring to.
"I have the impression that the article on historicity was written by someone with a Bias, who has convinced themselves of their extensive knowledge." Yes, you are absolutely correct. You may be astonished to learn that 100% of all Wikipedia articles are written by one or more human beings. According to WP:NPOV, every Wikipedia editor has a bias. I have the impression that other encyclopedias also include articles written by human beings. Please help us improve this and other articles. -- DavidCary 03:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The intro to the srticle (the bit in italics) says it's concerned with the actual historical existence of the man Jesus; but the article then forgets this and spends its entire length discussing his nature instead. It needs to be substantially shortened and focussed on what it claims to be about.
My edit summary on this date at 18:46 should have read "removed 'linkfarm' template"...my mistake. KHM03 18:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The edits made by myself (and apparently one or two others) were to remove inaccuracies and the extreme POV bent apparent in the article. Much in the article was only nominally related; lengthy discussions of peripheral issues added nothing but POV to the article; unsupported claims are also not needed. Please discuss before restoring POV. Thanks... KHM03 22:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't care how long they were there...they're still POV. The article isn't about Josephus...mention what he has to offer and move on, don't dawdle. The stuff was deleted because it wasn't germaine to the subject at hand, not to cover anything up. Let the "Jesus didn't exist" position argue for itself; don't try and shore it up. KHM03 23:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
But the idea that Jesus didn't exist is so fringe, such a tiny, tiny minority, that mainstream scholarship doesn't even give it credence. Even the "liberal" Jesus Seminar affirms that he existed. It idn't mainstream and barely scholarly. We need to be honest about that reality. KHM03 23:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
stantive in respect to the field, for example, New Perspectives on Paul is pushed mainly by two individuals, BOTH of whom ( James Dunn, who is the Durham University Professor of Theology, and Tom Wright (theologian), who is the current Bishop of Durham) are at Durham University, and BOTH of whom are part of its theology department, and BOTH of whom live within 1 mile of each other. Mainstream scholarship DOES give the Jesus-didn't-exist view credence, but, much in the same was as the Omphalos hypothesis, it isn't very practical to considering other theological questions - "how does Jesus fit into the problem of evil? the question can't be asked, he didn't exist. do you suppose Jesus spoke aramaic or hebrew? no he didn't, he didn't exist. was Jesus a vegetarian? no, he didn't exist" and for this reason it is put to one side - not discounted just something that gets too much in the way of carrying out other theological study for it to be practical to involve it, much in the same way as people disregard Quantum Electrodynamics when trying to work out which fuse has blown, or disregard Biochemistry when considering whether it is better to have chips or ice cream for dinner. The Jesus Seminar consisted predominantly of Christians; for it to have concluded that Jesus didn't exist, regardless of the merit of the position, is frankly ridiculous.
The notion that Jesus didn't exist is a tiny minority in academia. Fringe. Not taken too seriously by respected academics. We needn't argue about that; it's reality. So, let's present the view (or views) which scholars do affirm. I'll grant you that academia by and large does not affirm the deity of Christ, which is a faith affirmation. And it can say little conclusively about his resurrection, which, again, is in the realm of faith, other than to say that something apparently happened which inspired the early Church. But academia does affirm that Jesus lived, and he lived in first century Palestine and was a Jew. There's no serious dispute about that. Now, there are those who hold these fringe views - such as "Jesus never existed" - tiny minorities who have found little acceptance in academia. Should we mention them? Yes. Certainly. But let's not pretend that their ideas are mainstream or that they are held in high regard by legitimate scholars. Let's call these views what they are - fringe minorities - and move on. If the arguments have merit, evidence will grow, academia will become convinced, and time will prove them correct. To date, that hasn't happened. Not even close. Let's just be honest about that. Fair? I'm not "evangelizing" the "Jesus existed" position; I'm simply stating the position of mainstream scholars. Your beef is with the academy, not with me. KHM03 02:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
-- eleuthero 04:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC) -- Clinkophonist 11:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
So now you are disputing factual accuracy as well? Eh? What is factually inaccurate? Clinkophonist 23:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The truth is that most historians (secular and religious) believe that while the Gospels are certainly not written as strict history or biography, they are still invaluable sources of historical information. You dispute that...you're inaccurate. Also, Bible scholars do not by and large consider the Gospels "distorted" (weasel word, there), nor do they by and large reject the supernatural and miraculous (though they may have differing explanations for them). You dispute that...you're inaccurate. I edited the sections to make them NPOV...you preferred the POV versions. You can't dispute that. KHM03 02:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see a similar edit of the Pauline epistle section. There seems to be the same variety of bias there. "majority of modern scholars" is highly deceptive ignoring whole traditions of Christians as well as a number of individual scholars within traditions that make no statement one way or the other.-- eleuthero 04:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Everything on page is not wrong...but how it is presented is pretty much disingenuous and POV, I think. Bible scholars - including many in the more liberal Jesus Seminar - do not outrightly dismiss the supernatural events in Jesus' life; they may have other explanations or at times say nothing at all. The line about "secular" scholars is also inaccurate, unsourced, and misleading, for it implies that secular scholars hold one thing and religious scholars another, calling into question the academic integrity of the religious scholars, which is WAY over the line POV. I'm sorry you disagree with the inaccuracies I pointed out...but that doesn't change their veracity. Much of what I deleted existed - seemingly - only to push or imply a particular POV. Is the discussion that graffiti in 1st century Palestine reveals little of value regarding Jesus really necessary? What's the point? Does the article suffer by its deletion? I think it's stronger and more concise. I may agree to remove the "totally disputed" template (providing more misleading information isn't inserted) and replace it with a "POV" template, which is completely justifiable. KHM03 11:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
"Palatine"...forgive me when I type quickly. Obviously, I disagree with you. I was able to point out "weasel words" which demonstrated both inaccuracy and POV. KHM03 15:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The Jesus Seminar, a very liberal group of Biblical scholars (particularly Jesus scholars), has affirmed his existence (though they have challenged the orthodox view of Jesus). Crossan and Borg are two of the seminar's most prominent scholars who affirm his existence and consider the non-existence view fringe. N.T. Wright. E.P. Sanders. Dale Allison. Robert Gagnon. All are living and are acknowledged scholars & authorities. Known names in the field. You have cited Earl Doherty...not a Biblical or Jesus scholar, whose work is not taken seriously in the "Jesus research" field. Can you name someone who actually is taken seriously?
My point is that we shouldn't simply ignore the theory that Jesus never existed, as far out as it may be. But we need to recongnize that it is a minority, fringe theory, with which the "top minds" in the field obviously disagree. Let's not portray it as a major scholarly view, for that wouldn't be accurate. Mention it...explain it...even link to the "Jesus Myth" article where the theory is discussed in greater detail...but when it comes to whether or not Jesus existed, the vast majority of scholars say, "YES!" They may not affirm the orthodox, divine Jesus, but very, very few actually doubt that he lived. Let's be honest about that. KHM03 12:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not citing Earl Doherty as the source, just the position he was the first figure to notably support in the modern world. Earl Doherty is NOT it. It isn't attack Earl Doherty himself and use that to justify disregarding the argument he proposes (commonly known as a Personal Attack, and regarded as fallacious/false/falsehood). His argument is proposed by other figures, for example.
The Jesus Seminar never met to consider the question "did Jesus exist", but instead to consider "what was Jesus really like". It wasn't in their remit. Just like the Hutton Enquiry didn't consider the question "is the government to blame; did they leak his name; was Gilligans report factual", but instead "how much blame should be put on the media, particularly the BBC". The Jesus Seminar is irrelevant as to the question of "did Jesus exist", only having something to say on "what was Jesus really like". and "what is likely to have been genuinely said"; they began with the axiom "Jesus existed" - its an axiom, not a conclusion.
You still haven't produced someone who actually attacks the position. "Do you support X" is NOT the same as "Do you attack Y" even if "Y is the oppositite of X" - "we support the belief in Jesus' existance" is NOT "the position that Jesus didn't exist is untenable, and poor scholarship". These contain substantively different words, and meaning. So I ask you again, who, being still alive, and from the world of academic biblical scholarship (not amateurs such as Kenneth Kitchen, a professional Egyptologist), actively attacks the "Jesus Myth" position?
And can I take your lack of a response to the not fully reliable point to be your conceding that most...think...not fully reliable is factual? Clinkophonist 12:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Rather than "heretical", which, while true, may also be interpreted as POV, could we label these "Gnostic texts" or "Non-canonical texts"? KHM03 07:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, most importantly, calling many of these texts "heretical" is simply a matter of historical accuracy...they were deemed heretical by the early Church and have carried that label for 2000 years. There may be information of value in them, but that doesn't change their status. I just thought another term might be better (such as "non-canonical"). Is heretical best? What's the community's opinion? KHM03 12:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to respond in bullets for clarity:
Clinkophonist: Please work with the community on this article. The page was changed as other editors (inc. myself) sought to remove the evident POV and inaccuracies. Most of the critical information is still in the article...just the POV stuff has been removed. There's no need for you to fly solo on this article. Let's all work together...it's possible that what you consider NPOV is actually very POV, isn't it? That's what I think we're dealing with. So let's all be part of an editing team here and not simply revert other editors' work. Thanks... KHM03 12:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
You are the one doing the major deletionism. I will continue to protect the text against your campaign of censorship. Clinkophonist 11:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
And the POV implication is that "secular" historians are unbiased and therefore have greater academic integrity than historians who hold a religious faith. That's not only completely untrue, it is POV. A simple change can eliminate that, which is what we're trying to do. Constant reverts to the POV version are not helpful. KHM03 14:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The implication KHM refers to, lies in the ambiguity of the term "secular". This is often perceived as neutral, but a historian who rejects the supernatural or the special status of Jesus (as in the opening paragraph) is not more neutral as a historian who (as a Christian) accepts Jesus as the Messiah. If such a man were termed more accurately as adhering to another, non-Christian religion (be it another religion or atheism), aynone could the question-begging and unsubstantial quality of the passge. The neutral position would be to leave it open or, and this is the actually useful thing to do as a historian, to say that he and his followers considered him the Messiah. Str1977 15:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
But Str1977's analysis is correct: the implication is that secular=neutral and religious=biased. Both can be biased; both can also be objective. I, for one, am trained in history and theology, and while I refute the idea that Jesus' miracles can be explained rationally, affirm them as a matter of faith. But to simply say "they didn't happen" can't objectively be proven without the invention of a time machine. So...the implication remains, and that's POV, and that's why we keep editing it to be NPOV. Thanks... KHM03 16:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Secular in this context means simply "does not start with a religious-view-based axiom". It does not mean that they do not consider questions of miracles, and many do. But it does mean that they avoid circular arguments and don't assume from the start that they are true before even investigating them. Clinkophonist 19:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I deleted most of the section on Josephus not because there was anything especially wrong with it, but because it seemed to duplicate the detailed discussion in the separate article. It was nearly as long as the main article itself. If I did remove anything that isn't in Josephus on Jesus, it should probably be added to that article rather than put back here. Wesley 17:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Just mentioning "Josephus appears to have wrote a passage about Jesus, but its a bit dodgy" isn't exactly covering, even in a summary, what is the main piece of evidence that "Many Christians use...as evidence that the New Testament is not the only contemporary document concerning Jesus".
Its the main piece of evidence quoted; it deserves more than a passing mention, even in a summary. What are the "internal indicators"? just leaving "internal indicators" makes it look like it is some vague and obscure thing which isn't at all obvious, which is highly misleading. Even just pointing out that Josephus remained a devout Jew would give an idea about what is so dodgy about it. And another important point is who first mentioned it, and why, and who didn't mention it. The dodgy arabic version (that's the 10th century one by Agapius for those who aren't sure what is being referred to) is also important enough to warrent mention, even if briefly. Clinkophonist 12:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The article is looking far more NPOV and without some of the accuracy issues; I would be willing to remove the "totally disputed" notice at the top if there are no other objections. KHM03 17:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Sadly, it can't happen until you're finished inserting your POV edits and inaccuracies. I guess we'll just wait till your finished and start working with others. Too bad; a real shame. KHM03 13:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Attempted some compromise / conciliatory edits on 15 Dec. Doesn't look as if Clinkophonist wants to do the same...I hope I'm wrong. KHM03 19:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I may have missed something...but does that help? KHM03 20:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Very hard to follow when you reply intext like that. But I'll try and respond.
In short, you must realize that the dominat view of experts is that Jesus existed. To say so is not POV, it's just the way it is. Someone could deny that JFK existed, but that doesn't make it so. We need to treat the "he never existed" school honestly, in context...as a minority view that doesn't carry much weight in academia. Respectfully, KHM03 23:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Clinkophonist 10:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
There's this article: Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism linked to from here and from a bunch of old talk pages, which contains a very dubious section about some serpent-god Herrut. This all stems from me finding that Herrut fella, finding absolutely no basis for him or the supposed myth in any Egyptology sources, and subsequently finding a whole lot of Christianity and Jesus related articles that reference the myth.
I've made a case against the whole thing in Talk:Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism, but since that place is deserted I figure I should also mention it here. BTW just to be clear I have no interest in historicity of Jesus, I just hate to see pseuo-Egyptian crap made up all over the place to support crazy theories. I'd like to get some consensus on what to do with that section over on that other page. Flyboy Will 20:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Friends:
From the summary at the beginning of the article, this text is supposed to be about whether Jesus existed or not and the Historical Jesus article about the discussion of what Jesus said, did or what happened to him. If this is the case, alot of the material here should be shifted to the Historical Jesus article, if it is not there already. Does anyone mind if I move and/or delete such tangental material to the Historical Jesus article? I would take care that we loose none of the discussion in the process. -- CTSWyneken 13:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
The difficulty of distinguishing which parts of Jesus' life may be historical and which may be unhistorical is one of the main obstacles for Biblical historians. Even accurate accounts of events in Jesus' life may have changed in subtle ways during re-tellings. Others may have been exaggerated on purpose, and some may even have been totally invented, possibly reinterpreted from older stories - virgin births and dying/reborn gods were common features of Pagan godmen myths, such as Osiris-Dionysus. Some notable historians have affirmed the resurrection of Jesus such as A. N. Sherwin-White, Thomas Arnold, and Michael Grant.
Thanks! I'll wait a day or two in case someone else wants to chime in.-- CTSWyneken 22:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
What do we need to do to get this removed? KHM03 21:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be something about Robert Graves' "King Jesus" in this article? Its scholarship is simply stunning. (from User:213.48.73.94)
I can only ask: If this is a serious article about the "Historicity of Jesus" where is the mention about Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera which in a few ancient fragemnts of christian opponents is claimed to have raped or seduced "Holy Mary" before her pregnacy ? One can say that is was simple slander (debatable) but there is not a SINGLE mention of it in this article. Flamarande 20:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
None of the contemporary sources quoted in this article are contemporary - i.e. at the same time as. All of them post-date the alleged date of Christ's life. The heading Contemporary sources is therefore misleading. Ian Cairns 00:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)