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The deceased's only official name is Shouwa now, so that's where the article should be. Common use is not always correct. — Nightstallion 18:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's article location is based upon common use, not some abstract standard of correctness. And what is correct in Japan is not necessarily what is correct outside Japan. And outside Japan he's still pretty much always called Hirohito. You can rant about this being "incorrect" all you like, but it's the way of the world. And if you want to move the article, do a proper move proposal with a vote, since this is certain to be controversial - you don't just get to make the decision unilaterally. john k 18:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Taking up a long series of opinions expressed over several years is not a good way to determine the consensus. Why not have a proper vote on the subject, if you want to get it moved? The clear result of your survey of past discussions appears to be "no consensus". Certainly we can't establish a consensus from these past discussions. Why not start it anew and try to get new people into the discussion? john k 19:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, no, a simple majority is not what is required. What is required is some kind of consensus. It doesn't necessarily have to be unanimity. It could even be a simple majority, if there's a consensus ahead of time that the issue can be decided by majority vote. But a fair, open process is absolutely necessary, and some agreement ahead of time of what kind of support for a change would be necessary to allow the page to be moved. john k 19:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Svitrigaila - you present a lot of good arguments for use of Showa, and some bad ones (the case is not analogous to popes, who are, of course, most commonly known by their regnal name, and universally referred to that way in the media.) There is something to be said for consistency, but I think you go too far in trying to argue that Hirohito is "wrong". It is not incorrect to call him Hirohito in English, and it is not only the media, but also scholarly works that do so. I would add that the case is hardly clear-cut for all emperors - Meiji and Taisho are certainly sometimes referred to as Mutsuhito and Yoshihito. And of course, when the current emperor dies, I suspect he will still normally be called "Akihito," as we currently call him, rather than "Heisei". Anyway, let's get some outside input here. john k 16:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
English is no longer the posession of British or American people. Not a few Japanese speak English and read the English version of Wikipedia, and they never use the term Hirohito because that sounds very rude. As American local English or British local English, you may use this wording as this article's title. However, if we treat English as an international language, we should use the term Emperor Showa instead. Tenpa 15:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, just like him. Good point. As usual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.110.244 ( talk) 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I've never been happy about the Wikipedia naming policy (I'd rather have articles at the most accurate name, and redirects from the 'common' name, so that e.g. the article would be at Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici, with a redirect from Lorenzo de' Medici), but as long as we have the 'most common version' rule, let's follow it. Basically nobody in the world of 'English as a principal language' speakers, other than people with some special interest in Japan, will know who 'Emperor Showa' is. End of discussion. Feel free to try and change the general policy - I'd be more than happy to support you in that (and of course we'd change this to 'Emperor Showa' if it passed). Noel (talk) 12:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I am Japanese. It translates with the machine. I'm sorry in strange English. I think that Emperor Showa is good of the title in my conception. Some Japanese put the meaning of contempt and call His Majesty by the name of Hirohito. And, cannot Hirohito be forwarded to Emperor Showa?Therefore, when the title can be gotten as Emperor Showa, it is glad. However, I do not intend to do to insist strongly. It would be greatly appreciated if the annotation could be applied for how named Hirohito to call when there is a thing taken in the meaning of contempt in Japan or. -- 220.254.0.4 ( talk) 18:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Which form is closer to the original meaning? I have heard both versions. Since "Shōwa" also characterizes his era, I think the second one is more correct, because "Shōwa" is not just a name like "(Emperor) Hirohito". -- megA 12:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
As I understand things, Emperor Shōwa is in fact correct usage for English, and other languages in Europe use analogous practices. The Japanese people actually refer to current Emperor Akihito, for legal purposes, as H. M. The Present Emperor (今上天皇陛下 Kinjō tennō heika ?); birth and incorporation dates since 1989 are filed by the form the (z) Day of the (y) Month of the (x) Year of Peace Attained (平成(x)年(y)月(z)日 Heisei (x)-nen (y)-katsu (z)-nichi ?)" where x= the current Gregorian year minus 1,988--Japanese legal practice since ancient times, accounting for current reigns. B. C. Schmerker ( talk) 05:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the article, "[t]he central question is how much real control the Emperor had over the Japanese military during the two wars." I think the answer is that the Emperor had considerable power. The most compelling piece of circumstantial evidence on this point is the manner in which the war ended. After (and only after) the two atomic bombs had been dropped, the Emperor told the people it was time to surrender, and they did. If he could direct the surrender of the nation in so expeditious a manner, he had great power. If he had been only a figurehead, under the total control of the military, he could not have done that, and he would have been denied the opportunity to broadcast to the people on that topic. Thus, I conclude as follows: either (a) as long as things were going well, he supported the military and did not exercise his power, or (b) he fully supported the military and its actions, and surrendered only when he saw that the situation was hopeless.
John Paul Parks ( talk) 12:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Hirohito was the compete ruler of Japan.He was a "God on earth" by the japaneses.Perhaps, Hirohito sent to death more people than Hitler and Mussolini togheter, but during the Cold war, "Uncle Sam" needed a friend in Japan.In politics, there's no friends or foes;there's interests and targets.The atomic bombs sent to be forgotten, all Hirihito's war crimes, since 1931.Only not nobles such as Tojo went to the gallows. Agre22 ( talk) 22:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)agre22
Do you really think Hirohito send more people to death than Musolini or Hitler? check your facts-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 16:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous IP made the following edit: [1]. As this is contrary to how I learned Japanese history, I checked the first resource. It is rather deceiving without the full quote:
Two words of caution are called for here. First, I call Emperor Shōwa "Hirohito" throughout this article because that is how he is best known outside Japan among non-Japan specialists.
The last bit among non-Japan specialists really needs to be quoted here. Also, it makes no claim about the "English-speaking world". Also, the reference should explicitly state that this is from page 6 instead of forcing the reader to search throughout the whole article for it.
Here is another resource:
The emperor himself lives namelessly ("His Majesty the Emperor") but intimately with the name of his death. Thus, he who was known in the West as Hirohito became Emperor Shōwa on January 7, 1989 [...].
The book is titled In the Realm of a Dying Emperor: Japan at Century's End by Norma Field (ISBN: 978-0679741893); page 20.
I am not very good with editing Wikipedia, so I hope that someone can deal with these issues appropriately. 124.212.180.93 ( talk) 13:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Was the Emperor's birthday on April 29 a national holiday in Japan? Or did he have an 'official birthday' on a different date, when the celebrations were held? Something similar to this happens for Elizabeth II of Great Britain. 86.143.70.75 ( talk) 09:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The image claims his coronation was in 1926; when in fact, it was in 1928. GoodDay ( talk) 22:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Twice in the last eight days I've reversed drive-by edits that removed "/Hirohito" from the article's infobox header. I strongly feel the header should indicate both names "Emperor Shōwa" and "Hirohito" until such time as the editors reach a consensus to favor one name over the other. Although I doubt the drive-by editors will pay attention to this discussion, I urge all to exercise restraint, patience, and respect for their fellow editors. -- Meyer ( talk) 05:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I have streamlined the article lead with the following goals:
-- Meyer ( talk) 18:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I was going to be bold and do this, but it seems controversial so I'll float it here first. I think the order of the names in the infobox should be changed to put Showa first. My reason is that all previous Japanese imperial infoboxes have the era name exclusively. Now, I can see why in the case of this article we should have Hirohito there as well, but it seems more consistent and reasonable to at least put Showa first. Template:Emperors_of_Japan also uses Showa (exclusively), so we should adjust this article to reflect that usage. Orpheus ( talk) 06:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
The order of the names in the infobox header should correspond with the article name and the information presented in the article lead. As the discussion archives show, these elements have been developed based on consensus reached over long years of acrimony and multiple polls. Please do not change any of these elements until there is discussion to document a significant shift in that consensus. Reverting the infobox header. -- Meyer ( talk) 04:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus for move.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 00:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
See above section for latest start of discussion. Orpheus ( talk) 00:29, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I would prefer Hirohito to Emperor Showa however I would someone to clarify that calling him Hirohito is not the same as calling President Bush, Bush. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 12:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
When he was born, he was named Hirohiro. It's a name called imina/諱. He was also given the title Michinomiya. While he was a boy, he was called Prince Michi/Michinomiya or His Royal Highness Michi/Michinomiya denka. When he became the crown prince at the age of eighteen, his name became Crown Prince Hirohito. Imina/諱/いみな [2] is a real name of a noble person and only the holder of the name can use it. People called him the Crown Prince/kotaishi/皇太子 or His Royal Highness Crown Prince/kotaishi denka/皇太子殿下. And when he became Emperor, people called him the His Majesty the Emperor/tenno heika/天皇陛下 or referred as the current emperor/kinjoutennnou/今上天皇. When he died, his official name became Emperor Showa. Japanese people do not use Hirohito when refer to him. Unlike the English speaking world, just calling his/her first name without kun or san except family members or very close friends is very impolite in most occasions in Japan, though the article title of the current Emperor is Akihito. See the Imperial names and the Historical names sections in Japanese name and Japanese honorifics#Royal and official titles too. Oda Mari ( talk) 17:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
" The Emperor's favorite pastime, pursued since childhood, is the study of marine biology. He spends two afternoons a week in his laboratory. On his periodic field trips he is so impatient to peer into the dredges to see what they have brought up from the sea bottom that he sometimes bumps heads with his fellow scientists. Occasionally Hirohito reaches into a dredge and gets nipped by a crab.
The Emperor's scientific pursuits have earned him induction into Britain's 300-year-old Royal Society, a ceremony likely to be a high point of his European trip. Only British kings can pull rank to get into this learned group. The only other foreign monarch who is a member now is Sweden's King Gustav VI Adolf, a horticulturist."
Richardshusr made an interesting addition to the war crimes responsibility section about the influence of US war-time propaganda, but didn't indicate a source. I almost added a {{fact}} template, but saw that the entire section has been flagged for citations since last September. On a controversial article like this, additions without citations are almost valueless. Let's try to go the extra mile and cite sources whenever we add content. -- Meyer ( talk) 08:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
This article gets so much drive-by vandalism, it's a real pain to maintain. We could save a lot of rv's if we restricted updates to registered editors only (partial protection). However, the restriction would have to continue indefinitely, which goes against the grain of WP policy. Anyone else think it's worth making an exception to save all the scut work this page requires on an on-going basis? -- Meyer ( talk) 04:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
It would be more appropriate to discuss the Emperor's responsibility for war crimes in the name he used during war events and not the name granted to him posthumously. This works better as Hirohito is also his personal name.
As he stands to face the judgement of history, he will do so as Hirohito the man and not as the Emperor Showa, a name adopted upon his death.
Thus I would urge the edit of this section to drop the reference to Emperor Showa.
That said, given that the judgement of history is placed upon the conduct of the person in question directly by name, and not by title, should not the title "Emperor" also be dropped as being prejudicial--at least for the purposes of this section of the biography.
This is the case in comparable biographies on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.235.126 ( talk) 21:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
On 3 July editor Silverhorse changed some of the dates in the article body to day-month-year format. Seeing that the bulk of dates in the article body remained in month-day-year format, and not seeing any justification for a switch to day-month-year, I reversed Silverhorse's change and then "hand" edited a few pre-existing day-month-year dates in the infobox and lead. -- Meyer ( talk) 02:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee stated that when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one to the other without substantial reason. For example, with respect to British date formats as opposed to American it would be acceptable to change from American format to British if the article concerned a British subject. Edit warring over optional styles (such as 14 February and February 14) is unacceptable. If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor.
At 08:30, 25 November 2009, Wiggalama changed a sentence in the article lead that had previously indicated that Japan's surrender was unconditions to indicate that the surrender was conditional on the Emperor maintaining his position. I have modified the sentence to remove mention of the surrender terms for the following reasons:
-- Meyer ( talk) 02:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
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Discussed multiple times in recent months. Consensus was to not to change the name per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME Raul654 ( talk) 00:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
WP:AT states an article's name must be:
Reversal of revision 344337545In the subject revision, editor 161.73.57.98 made a series of changes including substitutions of "Emperor Shōwa" for "Hirohito" and generally imposing Japanese name usage on the article text. I reversed the revision because current concensus of editors is that both names are acceptable (see sections on move proposal and Hirohito's name above, and many places in the archives). -- Meyer ( talk) 07:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
01:07, 8 June 2010 ReversalI reversed the following three edits for the reasons indicated:
Concerning 203.141.154.203's edits, while I think the editor may have been acting in good faith, I think it is neither useful nor encyclopedic to pidgeon-hole something as complicated as a man's life or an era with a single, emotionally-charged, and ambiguous term like "fascist". Also, removing information about the postwar era from the lead was unjustified. -- Meyer ( talk) 01:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC) Requested move (October 2010)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Hirohito → Emperor Shōwa — His posthumous name and era are Showa, Hirohito is just a personal name, like Mutsuhito or Yoshihito. Gryffindor ( talk) 06:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
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I've read this section three or four times and frankly, it's pretty incoherent. It badly needs to be rewritten but, not being an expert on this history, I don't think I'm the one to do it. I was going to try to straighten out the syntax but I find that without better knowledge of the events covered, I can't even do that properly. Help, please. Gtimny ( talk) 14:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
It is inconceivable that General MacArthur would have left the Japanese Emporer waiting out in a hallway and snubbed him. For one thing, every Japanese newspaper would have run "The Great Snub" on their front page the next day. It would have caused a national uproar.
This section, as currently written, also does not match General MacArthur's own description of what happened in his great memoirs, Reminiscences. In it, he writes that the Emporer (not out in the hallway, but on an officially received visit that was previously scheduled and well known to the press) requested an interview with the Supreme Commander, MacArthur. He writes that the emporer said, "I come to you, General MacArthur, to offer myself to the judgment of the powers you represent as the one to bear sole responsibility for every political and military decision made and action taken by my people in the conduct of war." [page 288] There are of course photos of the Emperor on this visit to meet MacArthur.
"Taking responsiblity" is quite different from an apology, and especially in the Asian tradition.
MacArthur further writes that taking such responsibility was "clearly belied by facts of which I was fully aware," meaning the general was convinced -- and already had evidence -- that Hirohito was NOT responsible for the war crimes.
"The Emperor called on me often after that" indicates, again, that he would never have been snubbed and left out in the hallway. The idea is absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starhistory22 ( talk • contribs) 09:07, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Japan was doing basic research on the atomic bomb,[28] However Hirohito was opposed to the atomic bomb plan from the beginning. The Emperor thought that use of an atomic bomb would bring about the extermination of mankind. Research of the Japanese atomic bomb was finally abolished by command of the Emperor.
The sources here aren't great. Are there any non-Japanese sources? I can't even begin to evaluate whether they are reliable and I'm a bit suspicious. Doesn't sound right to me — the "extermination of mankind" seems to come from his surrender announcement, which is a very different context than the wartime program. (Obviously the fact that the sources are in Japanese doesn't mean they are necessarily unreliable, but certainly on such a key topic there are more sources than just that?) -- Mr.98 ( talk) 03:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
The deceased's only official name is Shouwa now, so that's where the article should be. Common use is not always correct. — Nightstallion 18:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's article location is based upon common use, not some abstract standard of correctness. And what is correct in Japan is not necessarily what is correct outside Japan. And outside Japan he's still pretty much always called Hirohito. You can rant about this being "incorrect" all you like, but it's the way of the world. And if you want to move the article, do a proper move proposal with a vote, since this is certain to be controversial - you don't just get to make the decision unilaterally. john k 18:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Taking up a long series of opinions expressed over several years is not a good way to determine the consensus. Why not have a proper vote on the subject, if you want to get it moved? The clear result of your survey of past discussions appears to be "no consensus". Certainly we can't establish a consensus from these past discussions. Why not start it anew and try to get new people into the discussion? john k 19:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, no, a simple majority is not what is required. What is required is some kind of consensus. It doesn't necessarily have to be unanimity. It could even be a simple majority, if there's a consensus ahead of time that the issue can be decided by majority vote. But a fair, open process is absolutely necessary, and some agreement ahead of time of what kind of support for a change would be necessary to allow the page to be moved. john k 19:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Svitrigaila - you present a lot of good arguments for use of Showa, and some bad ones (the case is not analogous to popes, who are, of course, most commonly known by their regnal name, and universally referred to that way in the media.) There is something to be said for consistency, but I think you go too far in trying to argue that Hirohito is "wrong". It is not incorrect to call him Hirohito in English, and it is not only the media, but also scholarly works that do so. I would add that the case is hardly clear-cut for all emperors - Meiji and Taisho are certainly sometimes referred to as Mutsuhito and Yoshihito. And of course, when the current emperor dies, I suspect he will still normally be called "Akihito," as we currently call him, rather than "Heisei". Anyway, let's get some outside input here. john k 16:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
English is no longer the posession of British or American people. Not a few Japanese speak English and read the English version of Wikipedia, and they never use the term Hirohito because that sounds very rude. As American local English or British local English, you may use this wording as this article's title. However, if we treat English as an international language, we should use the term Emperor Showa instead. Tenpa 15:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, just like him. Good point. As usual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.110.244 ( talk) 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I've never been happy about the Wikipedia naming policy (I'd rather have articles at the most accurate name, and redirects from the 'common' name, so that e.g. the article would be at Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici, with a redirect from Lorenzo de' Medici), but as long as we have the 'most common version' rule, let's follow it. Basically nobody in the world of 'English as a principal language' speakers, other than people with some special interest in Japan, will know who 'Emperor Showa' is. End of discussion. Feel free to try and change the general policy - I'd be more than happy to support you in that (and of course we'd change this to 'Emperor Showa' if it passed). Noel (talk) 12:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I am Japanese. It translates with the machine. I'm sorry in strange English. I think that Emperor Showa is good of the title in my conception. Some Japanese put the meaning of contempt and call His Majesty by the name of Hirohito. And, cannot Hirohito be forwarded to Emperor Showa?Therefore, when the title can be gotten as Emperor Showa, it is glad. However, I do not intend to do to insist strongly. It would be greatly appreciated if the annotation could be applied for how named Hirohito to call when there is a thing taken in the meaning of contempt in Japan or. -- 220.254.0.4 ( talk) 18:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Which form is closer to the original meaning? I have heard both versions. Since "Shōwa" also characterizes his era, I think the second one is more correct, because "Shōwa" is not just a name like "(Emperor) Hirohito". -- megA 12:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
As I understand things, Emperor Shōwa is in fact correct usage for English, and other languages in Europe use analogous practices. The Japanese people actually refer to current Emperor Akihito, for legal purposes, as H. M. The Present Emperor (今上天皇陛下 Kinjō tennō heika ?); birth and incorporation dates since 1989 are filed by the form the (z) Day of the (y) Month of the (x) Year of Peace Attained (平成(x)年(y)月(z)日 Heisei (x)-nen (y)-katsu (z)-nichi ?)" where x= the current Gregorian year minus 1,988--Japanese legal practice since ancient times, accounting for current reigns. B. C. Schmerker ( talk) 05:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the article, "[t]he central question is how much real control the Emperor had over the Japanese military during the two wars." I think the answer is that the Emperor had considerable power. The most compelling piece of circumstantial evidence on this point is the manner in which the war ended. After (and only after) the two atomic bombs had been dropped, the Emperor told the people it was time to surrender, and they did. If he could direct the surrender of the nation in so expeditious a manner, he had great power. If he had been only a figurehead, under the total control of the military, he could not have done that, and he would have been denied the opportunity to broadcast to the people on that topic. Thus, I conclude as follows: either (a) as long as things were going well, he supported the military and did not exercise his power, or (b) he fully supported the military and its actions, and surrendered only when he saw that the situation was hopeless.
John Paul Parks ( talk) 12:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Hirohito was the compete ruler of Japan.He was a "God on earth" by the japaneses.Perhaps, Hirohito sent to death more people than Hitler and Mussolini togheter, but during the Cold war, "Uncle Sam" needed a friend in Japan.In politics, there's no friends or foes;there's interests and targets.The atomic bombs sent to be forgotten, all Hirihito's war crimes, since 1931.Only not nobles such as Tojo went to the gallows. Agre22 ( talk) 22:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)agre22
Do you really think Hirohito send more people to death than Musolini or Hitler? check your facts-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 16:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous IP made the following edit: [1]. As this is contrary to how I learned Japanese history, I checked the first resource. It is rather deceiving without the full quote:
Two words of caution are called for here. First, I call Emperor Shōwa "Hirohito" throughout this article because that is how he is best known outside Japan among non-Japan specialists.
The last bit among non-Japan specialists really needs to be quoted here. Also, it makes no claim about the "English-speaking world". Also, the reference should explicitly state that this is from page 6 instead of forcing the reader to search throughout the whole article for it.
Here is another resource:
The emperor himself lives namelessly ("His Majesty the Emperor") but intimately with the name of his death. Thus, he who was known in the West as Hirohito became Emperor Shōwa on January 7, 1989 [...].
The book is titled In the Realm of a Dying Emperor: Japan at Century's End by Norma Field (ISBN: 978-0679741893); page 20.
I am not very good with editing Wikipedia, so I hope that someone can deal with these issues appropriately. 124.212.180.93 ( talk) 13:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Was the Emperor's birthday on April 29 a national holiday in Japan? Or did he have an 'official birthday' on a different date, when the celebrations were held? Something similar to this happens for Elizabeth II of Great Britain. 86.143.70.75 ( talk) 09:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The image claims his coronation was in 1926; when in fact, it was in 1928. GoodDay ( talk) 22:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Twice in the last eight days I've reversed drive-by edits that removed "/Hirohito" from the article's infobox header. I strongly feel the header should indicate both names "Emperor Shōwa" and "Hirohito" until such time as the editors reach a consensus to favor one name over the other. Although I doubt the drive-by editors will pay attention to this discussion, I urge all to exercise restraint, patience, and respect for their fellow editors. -- Meyer ( talk) 05:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I have streamlined the article lead with the following goals:
-- Meyer ( talk) 18:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I was going to be bold and do this, but it seems controversial so I'll float it here first. I think the order of the names in the infobox should be changed to put Showa first. My reason is that all previous Japanese imperial infoboxes have the era name exclusively. Now, I can see why in the case of this article we should have Hirohito there as well, but it seems more consistent and reasonable to at least put Showa first. Template:Emperors_of_Japan also uses Showa (exclusively), so we should adjust this article to reflect that usage. Orpheus ( talk) 06:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
The order of the names in the infobox header should correspond with the article name and the information presented in the article lead. As the discussion archives show, these elements have been developed based on consensus reached over long years of acrimony and multiple polls. Please do not change any of these elements until there is discussion to document a significant shift in that consensus. Reverting the infobox header. -- Meyer ( talk) 04:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus for move.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 00:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
See above section for latest start of discussion. Orpheus ( talk) 00:29, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I would prefer Hirohito to Emperor Showa however I would someone to clarify that calling him Hirohito is not the same as calling President Bush, Bush. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! ( talk) 12:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
When he was born, he was named Hirohiro. It's a name called imina/諱. He was also given the title Michinomiya. While he was a boy, he was called Prince Michi/Michinomiya or His Royal Highness Michi/Michinomiya denka. When he became the crown prince at the age of eighteen, his name became Crown Prince Hirohito. Imina/諱/いみな [2] is a real name of a noble person and only the holder of the name can use it. People called him the Crown Prince/kotaishi/皇太子 or His Royal Highness Crown Prince/kotaishi denka/皇太子殿下. And when he became Emperor, people called him the His Majesty the Emperor/tenno heika/天皇陛下 or referred as the current emperor/kinjoutennnou/今上天皇. When he died, his official name became Emperor Showa. Japanese people do not use Hirohito when refer to him. Unlike the English speaking world, just calling his/her first name without kun or san except family members or very close friends is very impolite in most occasions in Japan, though the article title of the current Emperor is Akihito. See the Imperial names and the Historical names sections in Japanese name and Japanese honorifics#Royal and official titles too. Oda Mari ( talk) 17:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
" The Emperor's favorite pastime, pursued since childhood, is the study of marine biology. He spends two afternoons a week in his laboratory. On his periodic field trips he is so impatient to peer into the dredges to see what they have brought up from the sea bottom that he sometimes bumps heads with his fellow scientists. Occasionally Hirohito reaches into a dredge and gets nipped by a crab.
The Emperor's scientific pursuits have earned him induction into Britain's 300-year-old Royal Society, a ceremony likely to be a high point of his European trip. Only British kings can pull rank to get into this learned group. The only other foreign monarch who is a member now is Sweden's King Gustav VI Adolf, a horticulturist."
Richardshusr made an interesting addition to the war crimes responsibility section about the influence of US war-time propaganda, but didn't indicate a source. I almost added a {{fact}} template, but saw that the entire section has been flagged for citations since last September. On a controversial article like this, additions without citations are almost valueless. Let's try to go the extra mile and cite sources whenever we add content. -- Meyer ( talk) 08:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
This article gets so much drive-by vandalism, it's a real pain to maintain. We could save a lot of rv's if we restricted updates to registered editors only (partial protection). However, the restriction would have to continue indefinitely, which goes against the grain of WP policy. Anyone else think it's worth making an exception to save all the scut work this page requires on an on-going basis? -- Meyer ( talk) 04:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
It would be more appropriate to discuss the Emperor's responsibility for war crimes in the name he used during war events and not the name granted to him posthumously. This works better as Hirohito is also his personal name.
As he stands to face the judgement of history, he will do so as Hirohito the man and not as the Emperor Showa, a name adopted upon his death.
Thus I would urge the edit of this section to drop the reference to Emperor Showa.
That said, given that the judgement of history is placed upon the conduct of the person in question directly by name, and not by title, should not the title "Emperor" also be dropped as being prejudicial--at least for the purposes of this section of the biography.
This is the case in comparable biographies on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.235.126 ( talk) 21:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
On 3 July editor Silverhorse changed some of the dates in the article body to day-month-year format. Seeing that the bulk of dates in the article body remained in month-day-year format, and not seeing any justification for a switch to day-month-year, I reversed Silverhorse's change and then "hand" edited a few pre-existing day-month-year dates in the infobox and lead. -- Meyer ( talk) 02:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee stated that when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one to the other without substantial reason. For example, with respect to British date formats as opposed to American it would be acceptable to change from American format to British if the article concerned a British subject. Edit warring over optional styles (such as 14 February and February 14) is unacceptable. If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor.
At 08:30, 25 November 2009, Wiggalama changed a sentence in the article lead that had previously indicated that Japan's surrender was unconditions to indicate that the surrender was conditional on the Emperor maintaining his position. I have modified the sentence to remove mention of the surrender terms for the following reasons:
-- Meyer ( talk) 02:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
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Discussed multiple times in recent months. Consensus was to not to change the name per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME Raul654 ( talk) 00:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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WP:AT states an article's name must be:
Reversal of revision 344337545In the subject revision, editor 161.73.57.98 made a series of changes including substitutions of "Emperor Shōwa" for "Hirohito" and generally imposing Japanese name usage on the article text. I reversed the revision because current concensus of editors is that both names are acceptable (see sections on move proposal and Hirohito's name above, and many places in the archives). -- Meyer ( talk) 07:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
01:07, 8 June 2010 ReversalI reversed the following three edits for the reasons indicated:
Concerning 203.141.154.203's edits, while I think the editor may have been acting in good faith, I think it is neither useful nor encyclopedic to pidgeon-hole something as complicated as a man's life or an era with a single, emotionally-charged, and ambiguous term like "fascist". Also, removing information about the postwar era from the lead was unjustified. -- Meyer ( talk) 01:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC) Requested move (October 2010)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Hirohito → Emperor Shōwa — His posthumous name and era are Showa, Hirohito is just a personal name, like Mutsuhito or Yoshihito. Gryffindor ( talk) 06:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
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I've read this section three or four times and frankly, it's pretty incoherent. It badly needs to be rewritten but, not being an expert on this history, I don't think I'm the one to do it. I was going to try to straighten out the syntax but I find that without better knowledge of the events covered, I can't even do that properly. Help, please. Gtimny ( talk) 14:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
It is inconceivable that General MacArthur would have left the Japanese Emporer waiting out in a hallway and snubbed him. For one thing, every Japanese newspaper would have run "The Great Snub" on their front page the next day. It would have caused a national uproar.
This section, as currently written, also does not match General MacArthur's own description of what happened in his great memoirs, Reminiscences. In it, he writes that the Emporer (not out in the hallway, but on an officially received visit that was previously scheduled and well known to the press) requested an interview with the Supreme Commander, MacArthur. He writes that the emporer said, "I come to you, General MacArthur, to offer myself to the judgment of the powers you represent as the one to bear sole responsibility for every political and military decision made and action taken by my people in the conduct of war." [page 288] There are of course photos of the Emperor on this visit to meet MacArthur.
"Taking responsiblity" is quite different from an apology, and especially in the Asian tradition.
MacArthur further writes that taking such responsibility was "clearly belied by facts of which I was fully aware," meaning the general was convinced -- and already had evidence -- that Hirohito was NOT responsible for the war crimes.
"The Emperor called on me often after that" indicates, again, that he would never have been snubbed and left out in the hallway. The idea is absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starhistory22 ( talk • contribs) 09:07, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Japan was doing basic research on the atomic bomb,[28] However Hirohito was opposed to the atomic bomb plan from the beginning. The Emperor thought that use of an atomic bomb would bring about the extermination of mankind. Research of the Japanese atomic bomb was finally abolished by command of the Emperor.
The sources here aren't great. Are there any non-Japanese sources? I can't even begin to evaluate whether they are reliable and I'm a bit suspicious. Doesn't sound right to me — the "extermination of mankind" seems to come from his surrender announcement, which is a very different context than the wartime program. (Obviously the fact that the sources are in Japanese doesn't mean they are necessarily unreliable, but certainly on such a key topic there are more sources than just that?) -- Mr.98 ( talk) 03:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)