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Cant believe such articles are allowed here! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hindu And the mention of this article is on Hinduism page! Sarvabhaum 17:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Have you read this article? What's your objection? swadhyayee 17:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes I have.My objection is existance of Anti-hindu article.This article is propogating hate about Hindu religion. Ok u mean anti-Hindu? no i have not and i dont want to. Sarvabhaum 18:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Hindu article is not against Hindu, it is about the phenomena of people propagating anti-Hindu ideas. You should read it, it is not against Hinduism. I feel, you should not object without seeing it. swadhyayee 02:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
This has reference to contents of article and recent edit of Magicalsaumi who has preferred not to chage or comment the "Satwik" food and "Gau Puja".
I feel, "Satwik" should be spelled as "Satvik".
It is im-proper to say that veg. food is "Satvik" or non-veg is avoided to stick to "Satvik" food. In no terms, non-veg. is accepted as food but the food is divided in 3 catagories i) Satvik 2) Rajsi and 3) Tamsi. They are described along with similar 3 catagories of faiths in Ch.17 of Srimad Bhagawad Geeta. So telling all veg. food is "Satvik" is grossly wrong.
Regarding cow not being worshipped but venerated is partial truth. There is a day ("Bal-Choth") when cow is worshipped. Cow is not worshipped the way idol is worshipped except on "Bal-Choth" or similar other days. Similarly, I think bullocks, elephants and snakes are also worshipped. One can not say, Hindus venerate snakes though there is "Nag-Puja". One may find idol of "Pothia" (bullock?)in any "Shiv" temple and customarily one has to show reverence to "Pothia" 1st than "Shiv". I think, the sages in order to protect birds and animals from killing placed some reverence in them. Like crows are considered to be "Pitrus", Eagle to be vehicle of "Vishnu" and so on. The true things should be properly expounded. swadhyayee 03:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry to have to dis-agree with you in certain respect. I would not agree to make the article to satisfy Catholic world. I think, our terminology should be extended to world over and let the world accept our terminology like Puja, Murti etc. There is world other than Catholics. Why any un-due importance to Catholic world? We have provided lot many words to English Dictionary. One of them being "Yoga" for instant illustration. I am sorry but your idea that Wikipedia contains many biased may also be your biased view. You may be right but we should not write this article keeping our presumed state of Catholicy world in mind. I have observed here that there is lot difference between British English and American English. It is un-fortunate that most of Americans think themselves to be better than the rest of world and pat their back in claiming they are native speakers. I am totally in dis-agreement for using "icon" in place of idol which is in use for long. There are some people with malice intention to prove that Hinduism has it's roots in christainity. Use of their words will only support such malice.
Regarding Veg. and Non- veg. food, I think, I will have to refer Geeta to comment but I am sure there is no mention of non-veg as food. Since, there is no mention of chemical being or not being a food, can we say that Geeta does not say chemical is not a food. Geeta has proclaimed "Ahimsa" being a divine virtue in Chapter 16. Is it not sufficient to say that Geeta does not accept non-veg as food? I will hopefully provide you with more illustrations. Have you checked Ch.17 about Satvik food as against Rajsi or Tamsi food? swadhyayee 03:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Cygnus_Hansa, 'Don't make Hinduism appear like a pagan, barbaric and foolish animism'. Have you gone off your rocker? You have said that you have done courses in Hinduism. Is this what those courses have taught you? Apparently you have not assimilated the teaching of your religion. There are millions of pagans and animists in India and probably in billions in the world. It is their concept of truth and their traditions. Please do not insult them by writing such prejudiced things. Aupmanyav 17:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the following edit from Magicalsaumy:
"Most contemporary Hindus would find calling Hinduism polytheistic as something ranging from indifferent, to wrong, to offensive. [1] [2]
"
for the following reasons:
"Q: Is Hinduism polytheistic?
A: Hinduism believes in one all-pervading Supreme Reality which in Sanskrit is called "Brahman". Brahman is that infinite, undivided, unchanging reality behind all that we experience, behind the entire universe. The infinite nature of Brahman prevents It from being comprehended by the mind, or described with words. The various gods and goddesses for which Hindiusm is famous, are therefore regarded as the highest representations of That which cannot be entirely represented. This allows the spiritual aspirant to choose the representation that most resonates with his or her heart. And knowing that Brahman can never be adequately represented promotes respect for the variety of ways in which It is represented and worshipped."
which (1) is already covered on the webpage, (2) says nothing about "Most contemporary Hindus" purported response to being called polytheistic, namely "indifferent, to wrong, to offensive".
Abecedare
05:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Also is "about.com" considered a RS source on wikipedia ? My reading is that it is not and should be removed too, but since I am not sure of this I'll wait for other editors' input. Abecedare 05:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
As I had indicated sometime ago, I have made several bold edits to make the article more encyclopedic and understandable to international viewers (not just observant Hindus). I have provided sufficient references, but I regret that the total quantity of edits is not conveniently possible to list here on the talk page. I will continue to make more edits, especially in the scriptures section. Cygnus_hansa 10:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello i got a question, in the the is stands: "Brahman is the Absolute Truth: it is pure existence, In this sense, the attributeless Brahman is called Parabrahman,
It is the supreme bliss. Parabrahman does not exist
nothing in the universe truly exists except Parabrahman".
If you read it says brahman is pure existance and braham is called "parabrahman" AND "parabrahman" aperantly doesn't exist, So i got a questin what is the sensce in that to belive in a god like dosen't exist...?
it can also be that is only i like being stupid.
well i will be happy if you can anserw my questing pritty quick.
Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cxw cs ( talk • contribs) 09:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
Hi, all I was wondering whether editors can replace the image (i.e., Khajuraho at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu#Religion_for_the_common_Hindu with a non-sexual image? It gives the wrong impression about the article, religion for the common Hindu.
Thanks.
Raj2004
11:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Gouranga updated the image.
Thanks.
Raj2004 23:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
i have uploaded 'aum' in saffron (bhagva).please change the original black pic with this pic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:242px-Aum.svg.png I am unable to do it. Sarvabhaum 11:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
In English this sentence is awkward:
since it uses the passive voice (one of my pet peeves, read my forthcoming book "The care and Feeding of Pet Peeves")
Since the reference for it specified swami vivekananda is the following sentence accurate
I ask because I like to replace passive voice construction whenver I find it.
TheRingess 00:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I see Cygnus's point. At the risk of returning to passive voice, we can say:
since we cannot simply state "The Vedas are eternal truths ..." but on the other hand Swami Vivekanand is unlikely to be the only one with this weird thought:-)
Note: I have also removed "the" from "the ancient sages".
Abecedare
03:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the definition of Hindu dharma, what sets it apart from Sikhism and Jainism and Buddhism, is the authority of the vedas. Though certainly Vivekananda and other vedantins would stress this more than most Hindus. The Vedas, still, however, define Hinduism.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
14:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I just realized nobody had touched this yet. "Hindus revere the Vedas as eternal truths, revealed to ancient sages (Ṛṣhis) through meditation, every kalpa" is how i've put it. Comments/objections? I've removed the passive voice, and showed its pervasiveness in Hindu philosophy.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
18:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
For of those of you who are not aware, there is a discussion over which design should be used for the Hinduism barnstar (there already seems to be consensus that we need the barnstar). The first/original barnstar with the green and white Aum was introduced by User:Srkris. The other two with yellow and red Oms were created by Priyanath. Any input is appreciated. Gizza Chat © 10:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
These are my observations when skimming through the article, and I thought it would be fruitful to discuss these here. Cheers, AppleJuggler 02:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes, it may be useful to be cite varied sources (e.g., likely a non-Hindu sage/guru/follower's writing, such as an academic source) to support conceptual statements (in addition to/as supplement to sources linked to Hindu organisations or people who are Hindu sages etc. -- the reason for this is obvious). AppleJuggler 03:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Good intentions do not always give good results. How can you distinguish between a Non-Hindu neutral source and malice one? It would be subjective. Very recently we had enthusiastic people trying to promote some Prof.Ninan whose intentions I feel are malice. Wish that you see last 10-15 days discussion. swadhyayee 03:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Following my comment above (on using varied sources to cite statements), I came across the following paragraph while reading an academic book on conversion. Perhaps someone can paraphrase this paragraph (don't plagiarise) to give more meat to the 'Conversion' section, or even other more general sections of the Hinduism Wiki. I type, for your reading, the following paragraphs from a chapter by Gabriel, T. 2006. Conversion from Hinduism and Sikhism to Christianity in India. Pp. 216-238 in C. Partridge and H. Reid, Finding and Losing Faith: Studies in Conversion. Milton Keynes, UK; Waynesboro, GA: Paternoster Press:
Cheers, AppleJuggler 03:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This was the version of the article of few days after it became featured. I brought this up so the current batch of editors keen to make it featured once again can look at how it once was. For obvious reasons, this version won't be featured now but it would be a good idea to take out anything (not necessarily info, maybe structure or prose) valuable from the old version and shove it the current one. Gizza Chat © 06:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Gizzaji, very nice idea showing us that. I am very impressed by the structure of that article as well as the use of quoting. I particularly like this section. Perhaps we should 'steal'. As I found the most appeal in the structure, perhaps we could compare the ToC of the old page to this one? ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 16:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Namaskar Shri Seadogji, and Shri Gizzaji. I do like the phrasing of that sentence you are referring to, and with a little refinement, I'd like to use that. As far as the denominations go, I had no idea that the article as it is was portraying the sectarian divisions as such; certainly both shaivites and vaishnavites must revere Shri Hanuman. I was very happy to see Karttikeya on your list, but I'm sure you know that outside of Shaiva Siddantha school, there is very little knowledge or reverence of him. As for the use of "ji", we are all contributers to Wikipedia, where all editors should be awarded equal respect, and even if not, both of you certainly have more seniority and experience here; this is not grhastha dharma, besides, even my great grand father who was a colonel of the Indian army at Kashmir would call me with 'ji'. Keep in mind: चैतन्यमात्मा caitanyamaatmaa (Shiva Sutras, first awakening, first sutra). I will leave it up to you to learn the meaning of this mantra.
ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 20:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Caste section POV disputed. I can't seem to find anything wrong, can anybody give some details as to why so we can fix this problem. — Seadog 20:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
What divinity? For an 'advaitist', there is no divinity. It is brahman, and there is no reason to call brahman divine. It is all the same everywhere. There is nothing undivine. So the question of the difference divine/undivine does not arise. It is only a hang-over from the unenlightened days. Aupmanyav 04:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not think there is anything old or modern, or orthodox or unorthodox in Hinduism. The 'Nasadeeya Sukta' said that the Gods came after the creation of the universe some 5,000 years ago. I believe the same in this 21st Century. Hinduism is a flowing river, philosophies come, philosophies prosper, philosophies become redundant, and arise again, all the time. Kanada theorised an atomic world in his Vaisesika Darshana more than 2000 years ago. I believe the same. In the interregnum there have been people who have searched and found God/Gods, they still do. There are others who still find solace in their village Gods as they used to do perhaps in stone age and sacrifice animals for them. I cannot claim that I am right and they are wrong. I have no such right or proof. Again, it is their truth and their tradition. Where do you put your finger? Aupmanyav 06:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Quoted from above:
DaGizza, we hindus are idol worshippers, we cremate our dead, we worship many Gods and some times even none. If any westerner does not like it, it is his/her problem. Should we be ashamed to own that we worship idols? Are we going to say to endear ourselves to westerners that we are not idol worshippers? At another time, Cygnus has been insisting on saying that hinduism is a monotheistic religion, which has been discussed many times in this page and rejected. The challenge still stands. If Cygnus is so ashamed of these things, he should probably join one of the Abrahamic religionsand rest in peace, in life and in death. I am ashamed to know of a hindu (is he one?) with such ideas. Still with the colonial mind set, trying to please his western masters? What else we should say to endear ourselves to the westerners? That Jesus is the tenth and the last avatara of Lord Vishnu?
Aupmanyav
17:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I think some un-necessary heat is generating out of personal attacks. I think Aupmanyav and Magicalsaumy both are right in part of their thinking. I don't think, Aupmanyav is supporting village Hindu traditions. There is too much of personal attack by Magicalsaumy in response to some attack from Aupmanyav. My earnest request to both these editors will be to strike out statements of personal attacks. Now, you both know each others view, my request to you would be to pl. strike out sentences of personal attacks.
I do not have context of the differences between them. I can see use of some Urdu like words by Magicalsaumy, however I am not in touch with scholarly words of Hindi. I can see hate in initial three sentences for Hindu believers. Any Hindu has some or other attachments to some or other Devtas and idol worship. Baring Dayanand Saraswati, I have not seen Hindu sages against idol worship. Idol worship is a science. For concentration, one needs an object. For sublimation of individual virtues, one need a form which can be seen possessing all virtues and the same would be possible through personification of God. Pandurang Shashtri used to give an analogy that if smoking gives strength to a smoker and so the smoker smokes, so what is wrong if a person believes in idol worship if the same give strength, hopes, sense of justice etc. to a person. My counter question to you Magicalsaumy would be, why do you hate Devta believers and idol worshippers? What gives you right to form a POV that those who do not believe in Hindu principles is not a Hindu? Even the sages have not claimed what you claim. I dis-agree with you that anyone can attempt to improve the image of Hinduism by super-imposing non-existing things. I think, there could hardly be anything which is not thought of thoroughly in Vedas. Magicalsaumy, you claim to honour/revere Hindu beliefs expounded in Vedas/Upnishads and simultaneously abhor idol worship and consider Ram & Krishna as cultural heroes than incarnation of God. I am sorry but I fail to understand your Hindu string. There could be no hate for other beliefs in any Hindu.
With due apology, if the knowledge generate hate in any one against others, the knowledge deserves to be cremated as per Hindu belief. Hope you know it. Pl. bear with me to be frank. swadhyayee 15:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Magicalsaumy, I share your views (that does not include your views about Aupmanyev, I have no observation). I also appreciate that you are linguistic scholar. No, I have not missed any of your last sentences. I just did not feel of commenting upon them. Neither of us rely upon villagers' Hinduism traditions. My knowledge is based on my exposure to Srimad Bhagawad Geeta. Again, Sanskrut has never been my subject. I have read Jnaneshwari & commentry by Shankaracharya. I do not know that while you tell that idol worship is not mentioned in Vedas whether the same exists there or not. I don't think, whether you can claim to have studied all 4 Vedas which is probably humanly impossible. Yet, I think, Lord Krishna in Geeta advocates to worship God. I am not a scholar and can't provide citations off hand. I do agree that you have freedom to express on talk pages but I don't think, talk pages are meant for personal attacks. Pl. read your comments peacefully some other time and see how much could you have avoided? In your comments you have attacked all Hindutvavadis. What is Hindutvavadi would be subjective. Are you referring to staunch Bajarang Dal or R.S.S. like political groups? Good, that you are Ph.D. in linguistic, with such qualification, you should be friend, philosopher and guide to others and not out to bite others. Hope you will appreciate my comments. You are a student, so still young. If, your study give you irritation towards others, you will lose your peace. If, you are Ph.D. in linguistic, you are our elder brother though I have crossed fifties. My whole hearted wishes to you to be friend, philosopher and guide to the world around. My last request to you would be, since you are online, pl. strike out your personal attack comments to Aupmanyav. swadhyayee 16:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very very much Magicalsaumy for spontaneous response to my request. If, I am not asking more, will you pl. consider whether "मैं आपकी तरह नाममात्र हिन्दू नहीँ हूँ क्योंकि मैं इसमें पैदा हुआ था और "विदेशी धर्मों में जाना गुनाह होगा"" could also be striked out and sentence beginning from "आपको परमेश्वर या उसके अस्तित्व पर यकीन नहीं है...." could be modified suitably? Thanks once again for your co-operation. swadhyayee 04:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Aupmanyav, An urge to you. Will you kindly re-check your comments to Magicalsaumy and strike out personal attacks? Hope you will do me a favour. swadhyayee 04:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you so much both - Magicalsaumy and Aupmanyavji for this favour of yours to me. Thank you very very much once again. Aupmanyavji, Pl. convey my belated compliments to your grand-daughter. swadhyayee 09:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
-o-o-o-
I am replying to Magicalsaumy's post. I have traslated Magicalsaumy's comments from Hindi to English, they are followed by my comments. If Magicalsaumy has any major complaint about the translation, he could point it out. I have not replied to those portions which he has already crossed out.
Aupmanyav ji, there is a great problem with you
Dear friend, that is your view point, there could be other view points where the problem could reside with you.
We are exactly opposite of each other.
We should respect our differences.
You consider hindu as an ethnic word and I consider it faith-based
hinduism is both, ethic as well as faith-based, or more exactly reason-based, otherwise there was no need for debates, as in Upanishads, and in various bhashyas.
Why do you love polytheism or idol worship
as for my personal belief, I am an atheist, I do not worship even one God what to talk of many. Consequently idols do not mean much for me. But then, I still consider myself as a hindu, so I would not belittle the beliefs of my co-religionists like you do. If they are polytheistic or idol worshippers, I respect their right to be so.
Because this makes you different from the Abrahamic religions
of course, my belief is different from those of Abrahamic religions, but it is not only this, there are other reasons as well. It would takes a few books if I mention all differences, but I would mention a few. Hinduism has freedom of religious belief, moksha in hinduism is not granted through a sole agent as in christianity, hinduism does not hate other religionists and would not want them to be either converted or killed as in christianity and islam.
There is this problem with hindutvavadis
first thing I am not a hindutvavadi, though I support BJP. I do not see any problem with people thinking about their religion with pride, especially if it is something like hinduism.
They present those things with with a lot of hullabaloo which gives them ethnicity
it does not apply to me firstly because I am not a hindutvavadi. That is how religions strengthen the belief of their adherents, otherwise why do christians, muslims, jains, and sikhs come up with religious processions.
I do not consider a born hindu as a hindu
that is your view. I would consider a born hindu as a hindu till the time that he renounces his religion.
In my view those who do not understand the principles of hinduism, should not call themselves hindus
It is not for everyone to understand all principles of hinduism. You need a life-time of study to do that. Similarly all christians or muslims or adherents of any other religion do not understand the minute details and philosophies of their religion. That is why you have theologists and maulanas who give out fatawas. Otherwise there would not have been any need for them.
They keep themselves attached to hinduism because they cannot do anything else, because they were born hindus
What if they are satisfied with the things as they are, why should they do anything. If anybody has problems with hinduism, he/she can leave the fold instantly, the Indian constitution gives them this freedom.
Their religion is to save the ideology they were born in
I do not see anything wrong with it. Hinduism will be saved or developed by hindus only, the christians or muslims will not do thisfor us.
For this they exaggerate things which make them different from foreign religions
some exaggeration cannot always be avoided, but there are solid differences.
As for me, I was born a hindu and my liking also is hindu
That is fine, it is the same with me also, it can be the same with other people also, why do you deny that and on what basis.
This is because I accept nyaya-vaisheshik and advaita to a great extent
well, thanks, that is great, what about Samkhya, Yoga, Poorva Mimamsa, and Uttara Mimamsa?.
And I respect hindu beliefs based on Veda-Upanishads
You don't. Ishavasya says you should neither worship manifest nor the unmanifest, how come you believe in a God and only in one God? As I have already mentions the second verse of the first hymn of the first chapter of the first mandala of RigVeda asks Agni to come with all Gods to a yagna.
Orthodox hindu faith
I have started a topic on this page about orthodox/unorthodox in hindu faith, nobody has posted in it till now, kindly say something there.
Some people think that since they were born in hinduism, accepting foreign religions will be a sin
Is it your invitation to people to accept foreign religions? Hinduism has no such stipulation. It would not like a person who does not believe in its philosophies to remain a hindu.
So remain a hindu and as far as possible, try to prove yourself different, but I do not believe this
You are welcome to your views. But how do you presume that those people who think that hinduism and Abrahamic religions have differences are actually hinduism haters?.
I do not engage in hypocrysy
why do you think that except for youself all others are hypocratic?.
I do not believe in lesser Gods because that does not go with my belief
Again, you are welcome to your views, but why should all hindus have your kind of views? I do not believe in any Gods, major or lesser, does that mean that everybody including yourself should have my kind of views.
The upanishads also sing praises of 'paramatma' and they have not written that those who do not believe in lesser Gods are not hindus
Upanishads were also written by humans. They had their views. That does not bar you from having different views. There are more than 108 Upanishads. All these do not speak in one voice. Think about Ishavasya Upanishad, mentioned earlier in this post, as to what should not be worshipped. Actually there is no bar at present also for someone to write a new Upanishad.
Therefore, I visit temples infrequently
then why do you go at all, same here but I go there to venerate the heroes and heroines of my culture, Rama, Krishna, Durga, Ganesha, Hanuman, etc..
You are completely the reverse
respect differences, munde munde matirbhinna, vipra bahudha vadanti.
You do not believe in 'Parameshwar' or its existence
yes, I do not believe in such a God, I believe in a Nirguna Brahman.
Because these are after all beliefs of Abrahamic religions
that is not correct, there are many variations of belief in hinduism, polytheists, dualists, monists, all believe in God, and I respect their belief. How does it matter if my personal beliefs are different.
Even then you worship Rama and Krishna because they are heroes of your culture, therefore, you engage in true hypocrasy
No, it is not like that. I worship Rama and Krishna and others with all my heart, because they have given identity to hindu religion and hindu culture. I also worship Chandrashekhar Azad, Rama Prasad Bismil, Shachindra Lahiri, and Ashfaq Ullah Khan, etc. because they gave their life for my country. There is no hypocrasy in this.
Yes, you like in engaging in hypocrasy of worshipping many Gods or idol worship because it proves you different from others
I have already mentioned that we are truly different from others. I worship my cultural heroes and the best thing is to have their idols or images. We have them in our Puja room and also on my computer. Why should you presume hypocrasy where there is none.
And you like to this extent that you would want to throw out Vedas, Parameshwar, Paramatma, Brahman, Upanishads from hindu religion
I would not like any such thing, I believe in the wisdom of Vedas and Upanishads, but do not believe them to be God-created like Quran, they were also written by men, but very wise men. You have included Brahman in the list. Yes, I do believe in a universal substrate which we call Brahman, but as one Upanishad mentioned, Brahman is nothing to be worshipped but to be understood. My views are in total consonence with my scriptures.
Now we come to polytheism, there is nothing wrong with it
You have been the most active in proving that hinduism is a monotheistic faith, how come you say now that there is nothing wrong with polytheism. If it was so why did you differ with me all this time? You accused me of supporting polytheism in the beginning of this very post.
But why, because this is based on an astik philosophy, Mimamsa
Hinduism has accepted Nireeshwar Samkhya also as an astik philosophy, it is one of the six.
Mimamsa has its own logic: Fine with me, except that I found other logics to be better
Of course, all Darshanas have their own logic, one is different from the other, you found some other to be better, I found some other to be better, but these are our personal beliefs, and hinduism does not interfere in this. Hinduism does not interfere even if you come up with a totally new logic. At the time Adi Sankara came up with his philosophy, it was new. When Sri Ramanuja, Sri Madhva, Sri Nimbarka, Sri Chaitanya, or Sri Vallabha, or any of the Shaiva or Shakta acharyas, Matsyendranatha, Gorakshanatha, etc. came up with their philosophies, it was new. Hinduism does not hate what is new.
If you have not noted, I have posted even in the Gods section in Buddhism with respect
You have done all that, but you have no respect for different beliefs of your own religion. As for me, I never visit any page apart from hinduism related pages, I have found what I was seeking in hinduism and have rejected all other religious beliefs after going through them.
With Swadhyayee, it is the problem of English language and Semantics
Oh yes, you have mentioned it many times.
And regarding language I am very particular
You don't seem to be with your cocktail of Hindi, Urdu, and English.
I will wait for your reply
I would not disappoint you any more, here is it.
Basically, Cygnus, you are young, immature, and confused. I have heard a quote somewhere that wisdom does not come before the age of 40 (barring, of course, exceptions and prodigies like Adi Sankara or Sant Jnaneshwar) and I have found it to be true. You have a lot to learn, and if you are receptive, you will learn. With best regards. Aupmanyav 10:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I expect apologies of Aupmanyavji for changing the text in a way that it would be better. I began as Aupmanyavji had put initial few words in capital. Aupmanyavji, using capital letters on internet means the writer is angry. I tried to change them to small letters as I am sure Aupmanyavji did not wish to exhibit his anger. I tried to make it better and probably has made it distracting a lot. I just tried to seperate translation from replies of Aupmanyavji. If Aupmanyavji, you want to remove my changes, you can use pop-up and in one mouse stroke, you can replace to your original one. If, you want me to bring it back to your original, pl. let me know on my talk page and I will do so. My apologies to all.
swadhyayee 14:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
In principle, I agree with you Baka. I feel there must be enough of interest generating ref. in this article to make the viewer go to other supplementary articles. swadhyayee 04:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
In the Article there is a subarticle on heaven and hell. I believe that this is giving the whole thing a an unneed Christian spin. Can someone please remove that and make the areticle even better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.198.48.71 ( talk) 10:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
Sorry I did not see this comment before restoring the deleted "Heaven and Hell" section. But I fail to see how saying the following puts a "Christian spin" on the issue:
The concepts of "Heaven" and "Hell" do not translate directly into Hinduism and reaching heaven is not necessarily considered the ultimate goal. This is because heaven and hell are believed to be temporary. The only thing that is considered eternal is divinity, which includes God as well as the ātman (the soul). Therefore the ultimate goal is to experience divinity.
Isn't the point of this wikipedia article to inform the reader, who may or may not be knowledgeable about the concept, about Hinduism ? And wouldn't a FAQ for such a reader be "Do Hindu's believe in Heaven and Hell" ? Of course, if you wish to improve this section based on reliable sources, you are welcome to do so, but I don't see how making the article less informative makes it better. Abecedare 17:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Namaste. Please see this discussion, and let us conclude upon an agreed phrasing and title; both had been questioned, and discussed upon, but only philosophically, and without enough proposals on actual phrasing for the article. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 16:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Throughtout the article various spellings used for concepts, devas etc. Eg. Sometimes "Ishvara" is written in IAST - iśvara. There are many of these all over the article. We need to have a standard method of writing Hindu terms. I prefer removing the diacritics and symbols because most people don't understand them. Hence Purānas goes to Puranas, Ṛiṣhis (which is wrong anyway, it should be Ṛṣis) goes to Rishis, pūjā goes to puja. What does everyone think? Gizza Chat © 02:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I think IAST ( as learnt from DaGizza) would be more appropriate. That helps someone to learn the pronounciation. I am not knowing how to use these fonts but I will learn. I feel providing pronounciation of words from other language is essential. swadhyayee 04:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Inside the article, I prefer Iast. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic) also provides useful formatting templates. As for article name such as Panini, i prefer some what simplied tranlisteration so that the user can just type in without accents and so on.-- D-Boy 05:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Namaskar. I would like to use the IAST (non simplified) transliterations. Each sanskrit mantra is very important, and we should do our very best to convey the most accurate sound possible in letters. I mentioned in one of the above discussions that Ṛṣi should not be Ṛiṣi. You can not have an i-vowel on the ṛ-vowel. However, after seeing the link provided by D-Boy, I can see why editors have been doing that. I am against the use of the simplified transliterations however. Perhaps, we should link to a pronunciation guide to the transliteration scheme we choose (I prefer IAST), or create one if it is not yet created.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
16:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Cant believe such articles are allowed here! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hindu And the mention of this article is on Hinduism page! Sarvabhaum 17:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Have you read this article? What's your objection? swadhyayee 17:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes I have.My objection is existance of Anti-hindu article.This article is propogating hate about Hindu religion. Ok u mean anti-Hindu? no i have not and i dont want to. Sarvabhaum 18:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Hindu article is not against Hindu, it is about the phenomena of people propagating anti-Hindu ideas. You should read it, it is not against Hinduism. I feel, you should not object without seeing it. swadhyayee 02:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
This has reference to contents of article and recent edit of Magicalsaumi who has preferred not to chage or comment the "Satwik" food and "Gau Puja".
I feel, "Satwik" should be spelled as "Satvik".
It is im-proper to say that veg. food is "Satvik" or non-veg is avoided to stick to "Satvik" food. In no terms, non-veg. is accepted as food but the food is divided in 3 catagories i) Satvik 2) Rajsi and 3) Tamsi. They are described along with similar 3 catagories of faiths in Ch.17 of Srimad Bhagawad Geeta. So telling all veg. food is "Satvik" is grossly wrong.
Regarding cow not being worshipped but venerated is partial truth. There is a day ("Bal-Choth") when cow is worshipped. Cow is not worshipped the way idol is worshipped except on "Bal-Choth" or similar other days. Similarly, I think bullocks, elephants and snakes are also worshipped. One can not say, Hindus venerate snakes though there is "Nag-Puja". One may find idol of "Pothia" (bullock?)in any "Shiv" temple and customarily one has to show reverence to "Pothia" 1st than "Shiv". I think, the sages in order to protect birds and animals from killing placed some reverence in them. Like crows are considered to be "Pitrus", Eagle to be vehicle of "Vishnu" and so on. The true things should be properly expounded. swadhyayee 03:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry to have to dis-agree with you in certain respect. I would not agree to make the article to satisfy Catholic world. I think, our terminology should be extended to world over and let the world accept our terminology like Puja, Murti etc. There is world other than Catholics. Why any un-due importance to Catholic world? We have provided lot many words to English Dictionary. One of them being "Yoga" for instant illustration. I am sorry but your idea that Wikipedia contains many biased may also be your biased view. You may be right but we should not write this article keeping our presumed state of Catholicy world in mind. I have observed here that there is lot difference between British English and American English. It is un-fortunate that most of Americans think themselves to be better than the rest of world and pat their back in claiming they are native speakers. I am totally in dis-agreement for using "icon" in place of idol which is in use for long. There are some people with malice intention to prove that Hinduism has it's roots in christainity. Use of their words will only support such malice.
Regarding Veg. and Non- veg. food, I think, I will have to refer Geeta to comment but I am sure there is no mention of non-veg as food. Since, there is no mention of chemical being or not being a food, can we say that Geeta does not say chemical is not a food. Geeta has proclaimed "Ahimsa" being a divine virtue in Chapter 16. Is it not sufficient to say that Geeta does not accept non-veg as food? I will hopefully provide you with more illustrations. Have you checked Ch.17 about Satvik food as against Rajsi or Tamsi food? swadhyayee 03:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Cygnus_Hansa, 'Don't make Hinduism appear like a pagan, barbaric and foolish animism'. Have you gone off your rocker? You have said that you have done courses in Hinduism. Is this what those courses have taught you? Apparently you have not assimilated the teaching of your religion. There are millions of pagans and animists in India and probably in billions in the world. It is their concept of truth and their traditions. Please do not insult them by writing such prejudiced things. Aupmanyav 17:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the following edit from Magicalsaumy:
"Most contemporary Hindus would find calling Hinduism polytheistic as something ranging from indifferent, to wrong, to offensive. [1] [2]
"
for the following reasons:
"Q: Is Hinduism polytheistic?
A: Hinduism believes in one all-pervading Supreme Reality which in Sanskrit is called "Brahman". Brahman is that infinite, undivided, unchanging reality behind all that we experience, behind the entire universe. The infinite nature of Brahman prevents It from being comprehended by the mind, or described with words. The various gods and goddesses for which Hindiusm is famous, are therefore regarded as the highest representations of That which cannot be entirely represented. This allows the spiritual aspirant to choose the representation that most resonates with his or her heart. And knowing that Brahman can never be adequately represented promotes respect for the variety of ways in which It is represented and worshipped."
which (1) is already covered on the webpage, (2) says nothing about "Most contemporary Hindus" purported response to being called polytheistic, namely "indifferent, to wrong, to offensive".
Abecedare
05:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Also is "about.com" considered a RS source on wikipedia ? My reading is that it is not and should be removed too, but since I am not sure of this I'll wait for other editors' input. Abecedare 05:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
As I had indicated sometime ago, I have made several bold edits to make the article more encyclopedic and understandable to international viewers (not just observant Hindus). I have provided sufficient references, but I regret that the total quantity of edits is not conveniently possible to list here on the talk page. I will continue to make more edits, especially in the scriptures section. Cygnus_hansa 10:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello i got a question, in the the is stands: "Brahman is the Absolute Truth: it is pure existence, In this sense, the attributeless Brahman is called Parabrahman,
It is the supreme bliss. Parabrahman does not exist
nothing in the universe truly exists except Parabrahman".
If you read it says brahman is pure existance and braham is called "parabrahman" AND "parabrahman" aperantly doesn't exist, So i got a questin what is the sensce in that to belive in a god like dosen't exist...?
it can also be that is only i like being stupid.
well i will be happy if you can anserw my questing pritty quick.
Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cxw cs ( talk • contribs) 09:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
Hi, all I was wondering whether editors can replace the image (i.e., Khajuraho at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu#Religion_for_the_common_Hindu with a non-sexual image? It gives the wrong impression about the article, religion for the common Hindu.
Thanks.
Raj2004
11:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Gouranga updated the image.
Thanks.
Raj2004 23:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
i have uploaded 'aum' in saffron (bhagva).please change the original black pic with this pic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:242px-Aum.svg.png I am unable to do it. Sarvabhaum 11:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
In English this sentence is awkward:
since it uses the passive voice (one of my pet peeves, read my forthcoming book "The care and Feeding of Pet Peeves")
Since the reference for it specified swami vivekananda is the following sentence accurate
I ask because I like to replace passive voice construction whenver I find it.
TheRingess 00:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I see Cygnus's point. At the risk of returning to passive voice, we can say:
since we cannot simply state "The Vedas are eternal truths ..." but on the other hand Swami Vivekanand is unlikely to be the only one with this weird thought:-)
Note: I have also removed "the" from "the ancient sages".
Abecedare
03:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the definition of Hindu dharma, what sets it apart from Sikhism and Jainism and Buddhism, is the authority of the vedas. Though certainly Vivekananda and other vedantins would stress this more than most Hindus. The Vedas, still, however, define Hinduism.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
14:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I just realized nobody had touched this yet. "Hindus revere the Vedas as eternal truths, revealed to ancient sages (Ṛṣhis) through meditation, every kalpa" is how i've put it. Comments/objections? I've removed the passive voice, and showed its pervasiveness in Hindu philosophy.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
18:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
For of those of you who are not aware, there is a discussion over which design should be used for the Hinduism barnstar (there already seems to be consensus that we need the barnstar). The first/original barnstar with the green and white Aum was introduced by User:Srkris. The other two with yellow and red Oms were created by Priyanath. Any input is appreciated. Gizza Chat © 10:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
These are my observations when skimming through the article, and I thought it would be fruitful to discuss these here. Cheers, AppleJuggler 02:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes, it may be useful to be cite varied sources (e.g., likely a non-Hindu sage/guru/follower's writing, such as an academic source) to support conceptual statements (in addition to/as supplement to sources linked to Hindu organisations or people who are Hindu sages etc. -- the reason for this is obvious). AppleJuggler 03:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Good intentions do not always give good results. How can you distinguish between a Non-Hindu neutral source and malice one? It would be subjective. Very recently we had enthusiastic people trying to promote some Prof.Ninan whose intentions I feel are malice. Wish that you see last 10-15 days discussion. swadhyayee 03:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Following my comment above (on using varied sources to cite statements), I came across the following paragraph while reading an academic book on conversion. Perhaps someone can paraphrase this paragraph (don't plagiarise) to give more meat to the 'Conversion' section, or even other more general sections of the Hinduism Wiki. I type, for your reading, the following paragraphs from a chapter by Gabriel, T. 2006. Conversion from Hinduism and Sikhism to Christianity in India. Pp. 216-238 in C. Partridge and H. Reid, Finding and Losing Faith: Studies in Conversion. Milton Keynes, UK; Waynesboro, GA: Paternoster Press:
Cheers, AppleJuggler 03:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This was the version of the article of few days after it became featured. I brought this up so the current batch of editors keen to make it featured once again can look at how it once was. For obvious reasons, this version won't be featured now but it would be a good idea to take out anything (not necessarily info, maybe structure or prose) valuable from the old version and shove it the current one. Gizza Chat © 06:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Gizzaji, very nice idea showing us that. I am very impressed by the structure of that article as well as the use of quoting. I particularly like this section. Perhaps we should 'steal'. As I found the most appeal in the structure, perhaps we could compare the ToC of the old page to this one? ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 16:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Namaskar Shri Seadogji, and Shri Gizzaji. I do like the phrasing of that sentence you are referring to, and with a little refinement, I'd like to use that. As far as the denominations go, I had no idea that the article as it is was portraying the sectarian divisions as such; certainly both shaivites and vaishnavites must revere Shri Hanuman. I was very happy to see Karttikeya on your list, but I'm sure you know that outside of Shaiva Siddantha school, there is very little knowledge or reverence of him. As for the use of "ji", we are all contributers to Wikipedia, where all editors should be awarded equal respect, and even if not, both of you certainly have more seniority and experience here; this is not grhastha dharma, besides, even my great grand father who was a colonel of the Indian army at Kashmir would call me with 'ji'. Keep in mind: चैतन्यमात्मा caitanyamaatmaa (Shiva Sutras, first awakening, first sutra). I will leave it up to you to learn the meaning of this mantra.
ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 20:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Caste section POV disputed. I can't seem to find anything wrong, can anybody give some details as to why so we can fix this problem. — Seadog 20:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
What divinity? For an 'advaitist', there is no divinity. It is brahman, and there is no reason to call brahman divine. It is all the same everywhere. There is nothing undivine. So the question of the difference divine/undivine does not arise. It is only a hang-over from the unenlightened days. Aupmanyav 04:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not think there is anything old or modern, or orthodox or unorthodox in Hinduism. The 'Nasadeeya Sukta' said that the Gods came after the creation of the universe some 5,000 years ago. I believe the same in this 21st Century. Hinduism is a flowing river, philosophies come, philosophies prosper, philosophies become redundant, and arise again, all the time. Kanada theorised an atomic world in his Vaisesika Darshana more than 2000 years ago. I believe the same. In the interregnum there have been people who have searched and found God/Gods, they still do. There are others who still find solace in their village Gods as they used to do perhaps in stone age and sacrifice animals for them. I cannot claim that I am right and they are wrong. I have no such right or proof. Again, it is their truth and their tradition. Where do you put your finger? Aupmanyav 06:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Quoted from above:
DaGizza, we hindus are idol worshippers, we cremate our dead, we worship many Gods and some times even none. If any westerner does not like it, it is his/her problem. Should we be ashamed to own that we worship idols? Are we going to say to endear ourselves to westerners that we are not idol worshippers? At another time, Cygnus has been insisting on saying that hinduism is a monotheistic religion, which has been discussed many times in this page and rejected. The challenge still stands. If Cygnus is so ashamed of these things, he should probably join one of the Abrahamic religionsand rest in peace, in life and in death. I am ashamed to know of a hindu (is he one?) with such ideas. Still with the colonial mind set, trying to please his western masters? What else we should say to endear ourselves to the westerners? That Jesus is the tenth and the last avatara of Lord Vishnu?
Aupmanyav
17:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I think some un-necessary heat is generating out of personal attacks. I think Aupmanyav and Magicalsaumy both are right in part of their thinking. I don't think, Aupmanyav is supporting village Hindu traditions. There is too much of personal attack by Magicalsaumy in response to some attack from Aupmanyav. My earnest request to both these editors will be to strike out statements of personal attacks. Now, you both know each others view, my request to you would be to pl. strike out sentences of personal attacks.
I do not have context of the differences between them. I can see use of some Urdu like words by Magicalsaumy, however I am not in touch with scholarly words of Hindi. I can see hate in initial three sentences for Hindu believers. Any Hindu has some or other attachments to some or other Devtas and idol worship. Baring Dayanand Saraswati, I have not seen Hindu sages against idol worship. Idol worship is a science. For concentration, one needs an object. For sublimation of individual virtues, one need a form which can be seen possessing all virtues and the same would be possible through personification of God. Pandurang Shashtri used to give an analogy that if smoking gives strength to a smoker and so the smoker smokes, so what is wrong if a person believes in idol worship if the same give strength, hopes, sense of justice etc. to a person. My counter question to you Magicalsaumy would be, why do you hate Devta believers and idol worshippers? What gives you right to form a POV that those who do not believe in Hindu principles is not a Hindu? Even the sages have not claimed what you claim. I dis-agree with you that anyone can attempt to improve the image of Hinduism by super-imposing non-existing things. I think, there could hardly be anything which is not thought of thoroughly in Vedas. Magicalsaumy, you claim to honour/revere Hindu beliefs expounded in Vedas/Upnishads and simultaneously abhor idol worship and consider Ram & Krishna as cultural heroes than incarnation of God. I am sorry but I fail to understand your Hindu string. There could be no hate for other beliefs in any Hindu.
With due apology, if the knowledge generate hate in any one against others, the knowledge deserves to be cremated as per Hindu belief. Hope you know it. Pl. bear with me to be frank. swadhyayee 15:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Magicalsaumy, I share your views (that does not include your views about Aupmanyev, I have no observation). I also appreciate that you are linguistic scholar. No, I have not missed any of your last sentences. I just did not feel of commenting upon them. Neither of us rely upon villagers' Hinduism traditions. My knowledge is based on my exposure to Srimad Bhagawad Geeta. Again, Sanskrut has never been my subject. I have read Jnaneshwari & commentry by Shankaracharya. I do not know that while you tell that idol worship is not mentioned in Vedas whether the same exists there or not. I don't think, whether you can claim to have studied all 4 Vedas which is probably humanly impossible. Yet, I think, Lord Krishna in Geeta advocates to worship God. I am not a scholar and can't provide citations off hand. I do agree that you have freedom to express on talk pages but I don't think, talk pages are meant for personal attacks. Pl. read your comments peacefully some other time and see how much could you have avoided? In your comments you have attacked all Hindutvavadis. What is Hindutvavadi would be subjective. Are you referring to staunch Bajarang Dal or R.S.S. like political groups? Good, that you are Ph.D. in linguistic, with such qualification, you should be friend, philosopher and guide to others and not out to bite others. Hope you will appreciate my comments. You are a student, so still young. If, your study give you irritation towards others, you will lose your peace. If, you are Ph.D. in linguistic, you are our elder brother though I have crossed fifties. My whole hearted wishes to you to be friend, philosopher and guide to the world around. My last request to you would be, since you are online, pl. strike out your personal attack comments to Aupmanyav. swadhyayee 16:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very very much Magicalsaumy for spontaneous response to my request. If, I am not asking more, will you pl. consider whether "मैं आपकी तरह नाममात्र हिन्दू नहीँ हूँ क्योंकि मैं इसमें पैदा हुआ था और "विदेशी धर्मों में जाना गुनाह होगा"" could also be striked out and sentence beginning from "आपको परमेश्वर या उसके अस्तित्व पर यकीन नहीं है...." could be modified suitably? Thanks once again for your co-operation. swadhyayee 04:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Aupmanyav, An urge to you. Will you kindly re-check your comments to Magicalsaumy and strike out personal attacks? Hope you will do me a favour. swadhyayee 04:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you so much both - Magicalsaumy and Aupmanyavji for this favour of yours to me. Thank you very very much once again. Aupmanyavji, Pl. convey my belated compliments to your grand-daughter. swadhyayee 09:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
-o-o-o-
I am replying to Magicalsaumy's post. I have traslated Magicalsaumy's comments from Hindi to English, they are followed by my comments. If Magicalsaumy has any major complaint about the translation, he could point it out. I have not replied to those portions which he has already crossed out.
Aupmanyav ji, there is a great problem with you
Dear friend, that is your view point, there could be other view points where the problem could reside with you.
We are exactly opposite of each other.
We should respect our differences.
You consider hindu as an ethnic word and I consider it faith-based
hinduism is both, ethic as well as faith-based, or more exactly reason-based, otherwise there was no need for debates, as in Upanishads, and in various bhashyas.
Why do you love polytheism or idol worship
as for my personal belief, I am an atheist, I do not worship even one God what to talk of many. Consequently idols do not mean much for me. But then, I still consider myself as a hindu, so I would not belittle the beliefs of my co-religionists like you do. If they are polytheistic or idol worshippers, I respect their right to be so.
Because this makes you different from the Abrahamic religions
of course, my belief is different from those of Abrahamic religions, but it is not only this, there are other reasons as well. It would takes a few books if I mention all differences, but I would mention a few. Hinduism has freedom of religious belief, moksha in hinduism is not granted through a sole agent as in christianity, hinduism does not hate other religionists and would not want them to be either converted or killed as in christianity and islam.
There is this problem with hindutvavadis
first thing I am not a hindutvavadi, though I support BJP. I do not see any problem with people thinking about their religion with pride, especially if it is something like hinduism.
They present those things with with a lot of hullabaloo which gives them ethnicity
it does not apply to me firstly because I am not a hindutvavadi. That is how religions strengthen the belief of their adherents, otherwise why do christians, muslims, jains, and sikhs come up with religious processions.
I do not consider a born hindu as a hindu
that is your view. I would consider a born hindu as a hindu till the time that he renounces his religion.
In my view those who do not understand the principles of hinduism, should not call themselves hindus
It is not for everyone to understand all principles of hinduism. You need a life-time of study to do that. Similarly all christians or muslims or adherents of any other religion do not understand the minute details and philosophies of their religion. That is why you have theologists and maulanas who give out fatawas. Otherwise there would not have been any need for them.
They keep themselves attached to hinduism because they cannot do anything else, because they were born hindus
What if they are satisfied with the things as they are, why should they do anything. If anybody has problems with hinduism, he/she can leave the fold instantly, the Indian constitution gives them this freedom.
Their religion is to save the ideology they were born in
I do not see anything wrong with it. Hinduism will be saved or developed by hindus only, the christians or muslims will not do thisfor us.
For this they exaggerate things which make them different from foreign religions
some exaggeration cannot always be avoided, but there are solid differences.
As for me, I was born a hindu and my liking also is hindu
That is fine, it is the same with me also, it can be the same with other people also, why do you deny that and on what basis.
This is because I accept nyaya-vaisheshik and advaita to a great extent
well, thanks, that is great, what about Samkhya, Yoga, Poorva Mimamsa, and Uttara Mimamsa?.
And I respect hindu beliefs based on Veda-Upanishads
You don't. Ishavasya says you should neither worship manifest nor the unmanifest, how come you believe in a God and only in one God? As I have already mentions the second verse of the first hymn of the first chapter of the first mandala of RigVeda asks Agni to come with all Gods to a yagna.
Orthodox hindu faith
I have started a topic on this page about orthodox/unorthodox in hindu faith, nobody has posted in it till now, kindly say something there.
Some people think that since they were born in hinduism, accepting foreign religions will be a sin
Is it your invitation to people to accept foreign religions? Hinduism has no such stipulation. It would not like a person who does not believe in its philosophies to remain a hindu.
So remain a hindu and as far as possible, try to prove yourself different, but I do not believe this
You are welcome to your views. But how do you presume that those people who think that hinduism and Abrahamic religions have differences are actually hinduism haters?.
I do not engage in hypocrysy
why do you think that except for youself all others are hypocratic?.
I do not believe in lesser Gods because that does not go with my belief
Again, you are welcome to your views, but why should all hindus have your kind of views? I do not believe in any Gods, major or lesser, does that mean that everybody including yourself should have my kind of views.
The upanishads also sing praises of 'paramatma' and they have not written that those who do not believe in lesser Gods are not hindus
Upanishads were also written by humans. They had their views. That does not bar you from having different views. There are more than 108 Upanishads. All these do not speak in one voice. Think about Ishavasya Upanishad, mentioned earlier in this post, as to what should not be worshipped. Actually there is no bar at present also for someone to write a new Upanishad.
Therefore, I visit temples infrequently
then why do you go at all, same here but I go there to venerate the heroes and heroines of my culture, Rama, Krishna, Durga, Ganesha, Hanuman, etc..
You are completely the reverse
respect differences, munde munde matirbhinna, vipra bahudha vadanti.
You do not believe in 'Parameshwar' or its existence
yes, I do not believe in such a God, I believe in a Nirguna Brahman.
Because these are after all beliefs of Abrahamic religions
that is not correct, there are many variations of belief in hinduism, polytheists, dualists, monists, all believe in God, and I respect their belief. How does it matter if my personal beliefs are different.
Even then you worship Rama and Krishna because they are heroes of your culture, therefore, you engage in true hypocrasy
No, it is not like that. I worship Rama and Krishna and others with all my heart, because they have given identity to hindu religion and hindu culture. I also worship Chandrashekhar Azad, Rama Prasad Bismil, Shachindra Lahiri, and Ashfaq Ullah Khan, etc. because they gave their life for my country. There is no hypocrasy in this.
Yes, you like in engaging in hypocrasy of worshipping many Gods or idol worship because it proves you different from others
I have already mentioned that we are truly different from others. I worship my cultural heroes and the best thing is to have their idols or images. We have them in our Puja room and also on my computer. Why should you presume hypocrasy where there is none.
And you like to this extent that you would want to throw out Vedas, Parameshwar, Paramatma, Brahman, Upanishads from hindu religion
I would not like any such thing, I believe in the wisdom of Vedas and Upanishads, but do not believe them to be God-created like Quran, they were also written by men, but very wise men. You have included Brahman in the list. Yes, I do believe in a universal substrate which we call Brahman, but as one Upanishad mentioned, Brahman is nothing to be worshipped but to be understood. My views are in total consonence with my scriptures.
Now we come to polytheism, there is nothing wrong with it
You have been the most active in proving that hinduism is a monotheistic faith, how come you say now that there is nothing wrong with polytheism. If it was so why did you differ with me all this time? You accused me of supporting polytheism in the beginning of this very post.
But why, because this is based on an astik philosophy, Mimamsa
Hinduism has accepted Nireeshwar Samkhya also as an astik philosophy, it is one of the six.
Mimamsa has its own logic: Fine with me, except that I found other logics to be better
Of course, all Darshanas have their own logic, one is different from the other, you found some other to be better, I found some other to be better, but these are our personal beliefs, and hinduism does not interfere in this. Hinduism does not interfere even if you come up with a totally new logic. At the time Adi Sankara came up with his philosophy, it was new. When Sri Ramanuja, Sri Madhva, Sri Nimbarka, Sri Chaitanya, or Sri Vallabha, or any of the Shaiva or Shakta acharyas, Matsyendranatha, Gorakshanatha, etc. came up with their philosophies, it was new. Hinduism does not hate what is new.
If you have not noted, I have posted even in the Gods section in Buddhism with respect
You have done all that, but you have no respect for different beliefs of your own religion. As for me, I never visit any page apart from hinduism related pages, I have found what I was seeking in hinduism and have rejected all other religious beliefs after going through them.
With Swadhyayee, it is the problem of English language and Semantics
Oh yes, you have mentioned it many times.
And regarding language I am very particular
You don't seem to be with your cocktail of Hindi, Urdu, and English.
I will wait for your reply
I would not disappoint you any more, here is it.
Basically, Cygnus, you are young, immature, and confused. I have heard a quote somewhere that wisdom does not come before the age of 40 (barring, of course, exceptions and prodigies like Adi Sankara or Sant Jnaneshwar) and I have found it to be true. You have a lot to learn, and if you are receptive, you will learn. With best regards. Aupmanyav 10:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I expect apologies of Aupmanyavji for changing the text in a way that it would be better. I began as Aupmanyavji had put initial few words in capital. Aupmanyavji, using capital letters on internet means the writer is angry. I tried to change them to small letters as I am sure Aupmanyavji did not wish to exhibit his anger. I tried to make it better and probably has made it distracting a lot. I just tried to seperate translation from replies of Aupmanyavji. If Aupmanyavji, you want to remove my changes, you can use pop-up and in one mouse stroke, you can replace to your original one. If, you want me to bring it back to your original, pl. let me know on my talk page and I will do so. My apologies to all.
swadhyayee 14:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
In principle, I agree with you Baka. I feel there must be enough of interest generating ref. in this article to make the viewer go to other supplementary articles. swadhyayee 04:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
In the Article there is a subarticle on heaven and hell. I believe that this is giving the whole thing a an unneed Christian spin. Can someone please remove that and make the areticle even better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.198.48.71 ( talk) 10:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
Sorry I did not see this comment before restoring the deleted "Heaven and Hell" section. But I fail to see how saying the following puts a "Christian spin" on the issue:
The concepts of "Heaven" and "Hell" do not translate directly into Hinduism and reaching heaven is not necessarily considered the ultimate goal. This is because heaven and hell are believed to be temporary. The only thing that is considered eternal is divinity, which includes God as well as the ātman (the soul). Therefore the ultimate goal is to experience divinity.
Isn't the point of this wikipedia article to inform the reader, who may or may not be knowledgeable about the concept, about Hinduism ? And wouldn't a FAQ for such a reader be "Do Hindu's believe in Heaven and Hell" ? Of course, if you wish to improve this section based on reliable sources, you are welcome to do so, but I don't see how making the article less informative makes it better. Abecedare 17:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Namaste. Please see this discussion, and let us conclude upon an agreed phrasing and title; both had been questioned, and discussed upon, but only philosophically, and without enough proposals on actual phrasing for the article. ॐ नमःशिवाय Śaiva Sujīt सुजीत ॐ 16:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Throughtout the article various spellings used for concepts, devas etc. Eg. Sometimes "Ishvara" is written in IAST - iśvara. There are many of these all over the article. We need to have a standard method of writing Hindu terms. I prefer removing the diacritics and symbols because most people don't understand them. Hence Purānas goes to Puranas, Ṛiṣhis (which is wrong anyway, it should be Ṛṣis) goes to Rishis, pūjā goes to puja. What does everyone think? Gizza Chat © 02:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I think IAST ( as learnt from DaGizza) would be more appropriate. That helps someone to learn the pronounciation. I am not knowing how to use these fonts but I will learn. I feel providing pronounciation of words from other language is essential. swadhyayee 04:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Inside the article, I prefer Iast. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic) also provides useful formatting templates. As for article name such as Panini, i prefer some what simplied tranlisteration so that the user can just type in without accents and so on.-- D-Boy 05:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Namaskar. I would like to use the IAST (non simplified) transliterations. Each sanskrit mantra is very important, and we should do our very best to convey the most accurate sound possible in letters. I mentioned in one of the above discussions that Ṛṣi should not be Ṛiṣi. You can not have an i-vowel on the ṛ-vowel. However, after seeing the link provided by D-Boy, I can see why editors have been doing that. I am against the use of the simplified transliterations however. Perhaps, we should link to a pronunciation guide to the transliteration scheme we choose (I prefer IAST), or create one if it is not yet created.
ॐ नमःशिवाय
Śaiva Sujīt
सुजीत ॐ
16:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)