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My main case, as the author and creator of this article project, for Hindu Nationalism's disctinction from Hindutva rests on three points:
(1) There are large numbers of Hindus in India who do not accept Hindutva as their political expression or idea of patriotism or nationalism. Yet these are Hindus, and impact the expression of Hindu society and India as a whole.
(2) Hindu nationalism is far more diverse than the just expanding the formulations of Savarkar, Syama Prasad Mookerjee and the RSS, VHP and the BJP. It is rooted in the ancient history of India, with the period of Islamic invasions and empires.
(3) Lokmanya Tilak, Mahatma Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Purushottam Das Tandon were not Hindutva adherents, but were with a different kind of Hindu pride. Why should they be crammed into Hindutva?
Jai Shree Rama,
Nirav Maurya—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rama's Arrow ( talk • contribs)
The above apology for Hindutva is the kind of deception and whitewashing generally displayed by Hindutvavadis. Specially see the sign off with Jai Shri Ram 94.8.132.135 ( talk) --- a POV if I ever saw one. Sooku ( talk) 02:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Lots of people think Vivekananda promoted nationalism. E.g., http://www.newindianexpress.com/lifestyle/spirituality/The-theory-of-nationalism-by-Swami-Vivekananda/2013/11/16/article1893824.ece -- Unknown user, 14 November 2014
Do not use more than five articles with the main template. -- Stbalbach 17:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Should we restore the third para of long-standing lead from Special:PermaLink/1041431641 ? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 08:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
“Trads” (short for traditionalists) are a subset of Hindu nationalists who have borrowed memes and imagery from the Western alt-right, and who consider mainstream Hindu nationalist organizations such as the BJP to be too moderate and accommodating to non-Hindus. They have been described as an explicitly fascist subculture. [1] The creators of the controversial Bulli Bai and Sulli Deals apps identified themselves as trads.
Special:Diff/1102484132 This was removed by Aman.kumar.goel with edit summary "Beyond irrelevant". As the source title says, this is about Hindu nationalists. As the page title says, this is relevant. where else are we going to cover this if not here? Venkat TL ( talk) 09:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2023 and 14 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): OjusG ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: Tjp1234, Ia987.
— Assignment last updated by Adirrao ( talk) 22:05, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
@
Kautilya3: Ok, come on then, I'm listening. What's the problem with
this actually functional opening definition that you've removed.
MOS:FIRST requires the first sentence to say what the subject is, in plain English. What we're looking for is a "Subject is XXX" sentence here, not an "... has been collectively referred to as the expression of social and political thought, based on ..."
which has all the coherence of a badly worded press release. The next sentence is even worse "Native thought streams.."
- it would be hard to define "native thought streams" let alone assert that it defines anything else - google that and you get redirected
back to this page - that's how unhelpful, esoteric, rarefied and simply not plain English the language in this lead is. I added that the subject is "a form of
religious nationalism among
Hindu communities"
(an actual explanation, in plain English), citing
Religious Nationalism in a Global Age: The Case of Hindu Nationalism - that ones gives it to you right there in the title, and
Religious Nationalism and Democratic Polity: The Indian Case. What's the problem? And how, on earth, could you look at my addition and think, yep, that's the problem, and the best way to improve this lead, which currently includes made-up phrases like "native thought streams", is to remove a well-sourced first effort at actually defining the subject, instead of working with it?
Iskandar323 (
talk) 06:57, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
sky is blue" (which is exactly what I mean by your home-baked interpretation). There are religious aspects to Hindu nationalism, but they are not the only ones. Van der Veer is studying "religious nationalism". So that is what he focuses on. (Moreover, his starting point is 1992, whereas this page goes back to the beginnings of Hindu nationalism in the 19th century). William Gould (270 citations on Google scholar) and Christophe Jaffrelot (1735 citations on Google scholar) are the authorative sources for Hindu nationalism. You can't insert stuff which violates what they say. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 10:54, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
"Hindu nationalism derives from socio-religious movements...", page 13,
"Hindu nationalism, as we shall see, largely reflects the Brahmanical view of the high caste reformers who shaped its ideology", who, page 14,
"undertook to reform their society and its religious practices in order to adapt them to Western modernity while preserving the cored of Hindu tradition". None of this really counters the applicability of the terminology of religious nationalism here. At best, Jaffrelot suggest that Hindu nationalism is some sort of hybridized religious-ethnic nationalism that has incorporated territorial and other ethnic values. Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:41, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
This page does not currently have a proper first sentence that says what the subject is, per
MOS:FIRST. The current first sentence is vague in the extreme, using the convoluted turn of phrase "... has been collectively referred to as ..."
- so is it or isn't it? The statement leaves one none-the-wiser. What it needs to say is
"Hindu nationalism is ... INSERT DEFINTION". Given the pushback against defining it in sociological terms, as
religious nationalism, I would like to hear what editors think it should be defined as. At the risk of being too bold, I would suggest that the
nationalism part is a given - leading one to ask, so, what type of nationalism? That is the question I put to the jury. For example,
this source says: "Hindu nationalism, also known simply as Hindutva, refers to ethno-religious and nationalist political attitudes in India."
Seems to have pros and cons, some good, some bad. Directly equating the subject and Hindutva seems problematic, but "ethno-religious and nationalist" sounds uncannily like religious nationalism, but then again, this is a less-than-stellar open access journal. Maybe we can do better. And that is precisely what the floor is open to now.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 12:43, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
@
Johnbod: One of your edits has been reverted by two users who are quite less experienced than you. Also, there isn't any proper explanation behind their move. I reverted both their edits. Thanks
LinnéaBørresen (
talk) 05:30, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
"Mecca can continue to be holy for the Muslims but India should be holier than the holy for them. You can go to a mosque and offer namaz, you can keep the roza. We have no problem. But if you have to choose between Mecca or Islam and India you must choose India."Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:42, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
::::The fact of the matter is basic tenets of
Hindutva and
Hindu nationalism are hatred towards minority community which means some form discrimination. In my view both category & template must be added as this ideology is nothing but xenophobia & Islamophobic in nature. Moreover an entire article has been created on
Hindutva terrorism.
Fowler&fowler can give your view regarding this matter.--
LinnéaBørresen (
talk) 08:49, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
"Their [Muslims' and Christians'] holy land is far off in Arabia or Palestine. Their mythology and Godmen, ideas and heroes are not the children of this soil. Consequently, their names and their outlook smack of foreign origin. Their love is divided"Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:56, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
"Hindutva does not have any religious connotations."- your personal opinion here is directly contradicted by all the sources tying the two directly together. Once again: Hindutva "animates contemporary Hindu nationalism". Iskandar323 ( talk) 07:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Hindutva 'is not a religious philosophy or a social philosophy based on cultural chauvinism, which insists that the non-Hindus of India accept their place as "minorities", whose safety and security will depend on their ability to earn the "goodwill of the majority"'. Thus at the heart of Hindutva ideology is the notion that what is good for the majority should be also good for the minorities and that any assertion of minority rights is essentially a threat and a challenge to the political authority of the majority.[9]
Hindutva 'is not a religious philosophy or a social philosophy. It is a political philosophy based on cultural chauvinism, which insists that the non-Hindus of India accept their place as "minorities", whose safety and security will depend on their ability to earn the "goodwill of the majority"'." The bolded text is what was missing. This aside, 'not a religious philosophy' does not mean 'no religious connotations'. On the contrary, it sorts Indians into the religiously contrived groupings of 'Hindus' and 'non-Hindus'. Iskandar323 ( talk) 19:58, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
On 5 August 1939, Savarkar highlighted how a common strand of "thought, religion, language, and culture" was essential to nationality thus preventing the Germans and Jews from being considerable as one nation.[1] Iskandar323 ( talk) 04:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
References
I've protected this page for 2 weeks, due to the ongoing reverting/edit-warring.
Any uninvolved admin may adjust the Protection at their discretion, without needing to notify me.
And note: Continued disruptive editing may result in further sanction, including being blocked from editing, by any uninvolved administrator.
Please discuss on the talk page in order to come to a consensus. - jc37 00:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
I see that this part on the lead has been restored on the basis that Tilak was a Hindu nationalist.
I would like to know how sources support the information. Bal Gangadhar Tilak cannot be described as a Hindu nationalist because he was no influence on Hindutva ideology which is the predominant form of Hindu nationalism today as discussed above. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 17:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
As Christophe Jaffrelot has pointed out, while the nationalism of the Congress party was essentially territorial and "civic," identifying as Indians all inhabitants of the British Indian Empire, Hindu Nationalism has sought to identify an Indian nation according to ethnic criteria. For Hindu nationalists, emphasizing Hindu identity is a way of overcoming the linguistic and regional diversity of India, by emphasizing a shared cultural heritage that also distinguished most Indians from non Indians." [17] None of these words are supportive of the disputed content. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 02:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hindu nationalism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Hindu nationalism. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Hindu nationalism at the Reference desk. |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
My main case, as the author and creator of this article project, for Hindu Nationalism's disctinction from Hindutva rests on three points:
(1) There are large numbers of Hindus in India who do not accept Hindutva as their political expression or idea of patriotism or nationalism. Yet these are Hindus, and impact the expression of Hindu society and India as a whole.
(2) Hindu nationalism is far more diverse than the just expanding the formulations of Savarkar, Syama Prasad Mookerjee and the RSS, VHP and the BJP. It is rooted in the ancient history of India, with the period of Islamic invasions and empires.
(3) Lokmanya Tilak, Mahatma Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Purushottam Das Tandon were not Hindutva adherents, but were with a different kind of Hindu pride. Why should they be crammed into Hindutva?
Jai Shree Rama,
Nirav Maurya—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rama's Arrow ( talk • contribs)
The above apology for Hindutva is the kind of deception and whitewashing generally displayed by Hindutvavadis. Specially see the sign off with Jai Shri Ram 94.8.132.135 ( talk) --- a POV if I ever saw one. Sooku ( talk) 02:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Lots of people think Vivekananda promoted nationalism. E.g., http://www.newindianexpress.com/lifestyle/spirituality/The-theory-of-nationalism-by-Swami-Vivekananda/2013/11/16/article1893824.ece -- Unknown user, 14 November 2014
Do not use more than five articles with the main template. -- Stbalbach 17:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Should we restore the third para of long-standing lead from Special:PermaLink/1041431641 ? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 08:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
“Trads” (short for traditionalists) are a subset of Hindu nationalists who have borrowed memes and imagery from the Western alt-right, and who consider mainstream Hindu nationalist organizations such as the BJP to be too moderate and accommodating to non-Hindus. They have been described as an explicitly fascist subculture. [1] The creators of the controversial Bulli Bai and Sulli Deals apps identified themselves as trads.
Special:Diff/1102484132 This was removed by Aman.kumar.goel with edit summary "Beyond irrelevant". As the source title says, this is about Hindu nationalists. As the page title says, this is relevant. where else are we going to cover this if not here? Venkat TL ( talk) 09:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2023 and 14 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): OjusG ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: Tjp1234, Ia987.
— Assignment last updated by Adirrao ( talk) 22:05, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
@
Kautilya3: Ok, come on then, I'm listening. What's the problem with
this actually functional opening definition that you've removed.
MOS:FIRST requires the first sentence to say what the subject is, in plain English. What we're looking for is a "Subject is XXX" sentence here, not an "... has been collectively referred to as the expression of social and political thought, based on ..."
which has all the coherence of a badly worded press release. The next sentence is even worse "Native thought streams.."
- it would be hard to define "native thought streams" let alone assert that it defines anything else - google that and you get redirected
back to this page - that's how unhelpful, esoteric, rarefied and simply not plain English the language in this lead is. I added that the subject is "a form of
religious nationalism among
Hindu communities"
(an actual explanation, in plain English), citing
Religious Nationalism in a Global Age: The Case of Hindu Nationalism - that ones gives it to you right there in the title, and
Religious Nationalism and Democratic Polity: The Indian Case. What's the problem? And how, on earth, could you look at my addition and think, yep, that's the problem, and the best way to improve this lead, which currently includes made-up phrases like "native thought streams", is to remove a well-sourced first effort at actually defining the subject, instead of working with it?
Iskandar323 (
talk) 06:57, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
sky is blue" (which is exactly what I mean by your home-baked interpretation). There are religious aspects to Hindu nationalism, but they are not the only ones. Van der Veer is studying "religious nationalism". So that is what he focuses on. (Moreover, his starting point is 1992, whereas this page goes back to the beginnings of Hindu nationalism in the 19th century). William Gould (270 citations on Google scholar) and Christophe Jaffrelot (1735 citations on Google scholar) are the authorative sources for Hindu nationalism. You can't insert stuff which violates what they say. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 10:54, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
"Hindu nationalism derives from socio-religious movements...", page 13,
"Hindu nationalism, as we shall see, largely reflects the Brahmanical view of the high caste reformers who shaped its ideology", who, page 14,
"undertook to reform their society and its religious practices in order to adapt them to Western modernity while preserving the cored of Hindu tradition". None of this really counters the applicability of the terminology of religious nationalism here. At best, Jaffrelot suggest that Hindu nationalism is some sort of hybridized religious-ethnic nationalism that has incorporated territorial and other ethnic values. Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:41, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
This page does not currently have a proper first sentence that says what the subject is, per
MOS:FIRST. The current first sentence is vague in the extreme, using the convoluted turn of phrase "... has been collectively referred to as ..."
- so is it or isn't it? The statement leaves one none-the-wiser. What it needs to say is
"Hindu nationalism is ... INSERT DEFINTION". Given the pushback against defining it in sociological terms, as
religious nationalism, I would like to hear what editors think it should be defined as. At the risk of being too bold, I would suggest that the
nationalism part is a given - leading one to ask, so, what type of nationalism? That is the question I put to the jury. For example,
this source says: "Hindu nationalism, also known simply as Hindutva, refers to ethno-religious and nationalist political attitudes in India."
Seems to have pros and cons, some good, some bad. Directly equating the subject and Hindutva seems problematic, but "ethno-religious and nationalist" sounds uncannily like religious nationalism, but then again, this is a less-than-stellar open access journal. Maybe we can do better. And that is precisely what the floor is open to now.
Iskandar323 (
talk) 12:43, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
@
Johnbod: One of your edits has been reverted by two users who are quite less experienced than you. Also, there isn't any proper explanation behind their move. I reverted both their edits. Thanks
LinnéaBørresen (
talk) 05:30, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
"Mecca can continue to be holy for the Muslims but India should be holier than the holy for them. You can go to a mosque and offer namaz, you can keep the roza. We have no problem. But if you have to choose between Mecca or Islam and India you must choose India."Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:42, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
::::The fact of the matter is basic tenets of
Hindutva and
Hindu nationalism are hatred towards minority community which means some form discrimination. In my view both category & template must be added as this ideology is nothing but xenophobia & Islamophobic in nature. Moreover an entire article has been created on
Hindutva terrorism.
Fowler&fowler can give your view regarding this matter.--
LinnéaBørresen (
talk) 08:49, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
"Their [Muslims' and Christians'] holy land is far off in Arabia or Palestine. Their mythology and Godmen, ideas and heroes are not the children of this soil. Consequently, their names and their outlook smack of foreign origin. Their love is divided"Iskandar323 ( talk) 06:56, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
"Hindutva does not have any religious connotations."- your personal opinion here is directly contradicted by all the sources tying the two directly together. Once again: Hindutva "animates contemporary Hindu nationalism". Iskandar323 ( talk) 07:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Hindutva 'is not a religious philosophy or a social philosophy based on cultural chauvinism, which insists that the non-Hindus of India accept their place as "minorities", whose safety and security will depend on their ability to earn the "goodwill of the majority"'. Thus at the heart of Hindutva ideology is the notion that what is good for the majority should be also good for the minorities and that any assertion of minority rights is essentially a threat and a challenge to the political authority of the majority.[9]
Hindutva 'is not a religious philosophy or a social philosophy. It is a political philosophy based on cultural chauvinism, which insists that the non-Hindus of India accept their place as "minorities", whose safety and security will depend on their ability to earn the "goodwill of the majority"'." The bolded text is what was missing. This aside, 'not a religious philosophy' does not mean 'no religious connotations'. On the contrary, it sorts Indians into the religiously contrived groupings of 'Hindus' and 'non-Hindus'. Iskandar323 ( talk) 19:58, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
On 5 August 1939, Savarkar highlighted how a common strand of "thought, religion, language, and culture" was essential to nationality thus preventing the Germans and Jews from being considerable as one nation.[1] Iskandar323 ( talk) 04:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
References
I've protected this page for 2 weeks, due to the ongoing reverting/edit-warring.
Any uninvolved admin may adjust the Protection at their discretion, without needing to notify me.
And note: Continued disruptive editing may result in further sanction, including being blocked from editing, by any uninvolved administrator.
Please discuss on the talk page in order to come to a consensus. - jc37 00:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
I see that this part on the lead has been restored on the basis that Tilak was a Hindu nationalist.
I would like to know how sources support the information. Bal Gangadhar Tilak cannot be described as a Hindu nationalist because he was no influence on Hindutva ideology which is the predominant form of Hindu nationalism today as discussed above. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 17:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
As Christophe Jaffrelot has pointed out, while the nationalism of the Congress party was essentially territorial and "civic," identifying as Indians all inhabitants of the British Indian Empire, Hindu Nationalism has sought to identify an Indian nation according to ethnic criteria. For Hindu nationalists, emphasizing Hindu identity is a way of overcoming the linguistic and regional diversity of India, by emphasizing a shared cultural heritage that also distinguished most Indians from non Indians." [17] None of these words are supportive of the disputed content. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 02:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)