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There are only two sources about this so-called dialect, both of which are Serb or Greek(not rs).-- I Pakapshem ( talk) 20:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
From the Gregorič source that is supposed not to say anything about the Himariote Greek dialect:
Do I need to go on with further examples? Wikipedia articles are about notable topics, not about exact phrases. Here is a third source in which the local dialect plays an important role. [1] Hans Adler 12:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Also, from Himarë:
Moreover, according to the same article the current mayor is president of Omonoia (organization). Hans Adler 12:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
And again where does it exactly say that it speaks about the "Himariote Greek Dialect"??? It could just as easily refer to epirotic idioms of the greek language for which we do already have an article!-- I Pakapshem ( talk) 15:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
If it was a distinct dialect then why isn't even its name mentioned? Even the article title seems OR to me, since we can't find it mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by I Pakapshem ( talk • contribs) 21:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the region isn't exactly the linguistic 'edge', although Himariote dialect lies far north from were the southern Greek dialect group is mainly spoken. I've found some works that describe the community of Narta (some 80 km north of Himara) as Greek speaking too, also with a distinct dialect [ [2]], [ [3]]. The term 'northern edge' for Himariote isn't exactly right. Moreover, I have to check what's the relation between Nartiote and Himariote. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Himara a Copy/Paste of Suliots assimilation
Himariotet, (similar to Suliotet ) are the only remaining orthodox element of Laberia. The fact that today in Himara, there is a large number of families that speak Greek, is mostly related to economical reasons and Balkan geopolitics of the region. Greek language spoken in the last century in Himara is neither related to Corfu dialect (which is the closest Greek neighbor region) nor to other dialects of north of Greece, for the simple reason that is an alien dialect in this region. Greek language used in Himare is very much related to Cretan dialect, because of a certain number of emigrants or fugitives that cames to take refuge during Balkan wars. Another excellent argument to bring forward is that the majority of Family names in Himara are pure Albanian, even more pure than the rest of Albania. These names are very similar to Laberia family names like Gjonleka, Gjodeda, Gjoliku. Himarioti family names like Gjomema (Gjon Mema and not Janis Memas), Koleka (Kol Leka and not Nikolaidis Alexis), Ndrenika (Ndrek Nika and not Andreas Nikolaqis), Spiromile (Spiro Mile and not Spiridhonis Miles), Kokushta (Koke which mean “head” and Ushta that mean “spear” in Albanian) …etc, has nothing to do with Greeks. They are simply of pure Albanian race. What is happening today in Himara is actually the same tragic-comedy that happened 150 years ago, when Suliotes, from Albanian orthodox highlanders become Greek citizens. Now is Himara’s turn. We will see what is going to happen.
No google books results, no simple google results apart from wikipedia mirrors, no google scholar results i.e no results exist for Alexikoua's wp:or.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I wonder why the article was moved to the simpler move "Himariote dialect" from "H. Greek Dialect". It's good to have an explanation on that. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I can't find anything about these in the source. — Lfdder ( talk) 11:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Some of the sources for this page describe Himariote as being a separate dialect from that spoken in Palasa and Dhermi-- so why are we treating them all as the same when it's at best controversial? I.e. the source that is used to say it's spoken in Dhermi and Palase itself explicitly mentions that many authors separate tehm.-- Yalens ( talk) 22:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Dhërmi/Drimades, Palasa and Himarë/Himara mainly use a local Greek dialect" (p.64). Thus, I assume that's considered as one dialect. However I'm not certain if there is a consensus about this. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
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I think this section currently displays an incomplete list of historical accounts regarding language and speech in the Himara region in the early Ottoman period. I believe it would be fair to present all such accounts and let the reader get a comprehensive picture. I do not think there are so many anyway. I recently added one reference of an account from 1500, which was removed by Khirurg. After this, Demetrios added one from 1703. Can we agree to keep both these sources in the section? Thank you. Çerçok ( talk) 14:37, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Alexikoua ( talk) 12:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
The figures were removed because Bon (2008) didn't propose that 8,000 people spoke this dialect. It only discusses the number of registered inhabitants of Himara.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 13:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Some linguistic studies which discuss the people and their languages were removed. If sources debate at length the historicity of Albanian/Greek speakers in the region and their linguistic contacts they should be debated at length in the article. The article can not promote a view which begins with a "continuous Greek presence" (as commented by a linguist from a university in Greece) but ignores that international linguistics considers the time of arrival of Albanians and Greeks and their languages a matter of open debate. Durraz0 ( talk) 15:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Durraz0: People and language aren't separated although these two papers discuss the language not the people. But even if we use sources which discuss the people primarily and the language secondarily, it's not an issue because the article already discusses about Greek presence in the context of ethnic Greeks which carried their language to the area. It's ahistorical overall to apply a methodology which separates the historical context from the linguistic one.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
At present they are still not considered as part of the recognized Greek minority by the Albanian state, while on the other hand they are counted as ethnic Greeks according to the Greek migration policy-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
The northwestern Greek dialect was spoken in this area, as such I'm astonished why this information should be fully removed from an article about a Greek dialect spoken in the same region. Whether related or not to the specific Himariote dialect it deserves a place in the history section. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Edit summary:
Çerçok, you are correct on vjeter and lashte; however, Kyriazis (2016 & 2020) gives examples that can be traced back to both ancient and medieval Greek forms. You also misplaced a sentence that pertained to the historical bilingualism.
Maleschreiber, Kyriazis doesn't limit the local -éos toponyms to three (Δραλέος, Ελατέος, Κασανέος), since he writes "etc." (etj.); in his 2006 and 2019 papers he provides five additional examples (Αργιλέος, Μερτέος, Φαγέος, Παπρέος, Ρωπλέος), and likewise ends with "etc.". Also, "Byzantine Ionian islands" isn't very accurate for this period, hence why i changed it to "medieval dialect of the Ionian islands". I also expanded it a little by elaborating that Himariote Greek has isoglosses that link it to a broader dialectal continuum throughout time, that is comprised of the Greek varieties from Sarandë, Delvinë, Gjirokastër, Nartë, Ionian Islands (including the Diapontia), and southern Italy; however, it has distinctive characteristics that don't support its origin from any other Greek-speaking area. The article can certainly be expanded with more details, but personally i don't have the time to do it now. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 12:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
For obvious reasons the first paragraphs of history section need a title since they do not deal with history in general (as the history section in general which is currently long enough to warrant separate subsections). Any alternative proposals are welcome, but the current title seems ok to me. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:17, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I wonder if there is a reason to remove information about the "linguistic boundary based on toponymity" provided that this offers information about the linguistic boundary of the Himariot dialect. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:33, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Himariote dialect article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from Himariote dialect appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 5 December 2009 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
There are only two sources about this so-called dialect, both of which are Serb or Greek(not rs).-- I Pakapshem ( talk) 20:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
From the Gregorič source that is supposed not to say anything about the Himariote Greek dialect:
Do I need to go on with further examples? Wikipedia articles are about notable topics, not about exact phrases. Here is a third source in which the local dialect plays an important role. [1] Hans Adler 12:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Also, from Himarë:
Moreover, according to the same article the current mayor is president of Omonoia (organization). Hans Adler 12:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
And again where does it exactly say that it speaks about the "Himariote Greek Dialect"??? It could just as easily refer to epirotic idioms of the greek language for which we do already have an article!-- I Pakapshem ( talk) 15:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
If it was a distinct dialect then why isn't even its name mentioned? Even the article title seems OR to me, since we can't find it mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by I Pakapshem ( talk • contribs) 21:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the region isn't exactly the linguistic 'edge', although Himariote dialect lies far north from were the southern Greek dialect group is mainly spoken. I've found some works that describe the community of Narta (some 80 km north of Himara) as Greek speaking too, also with a distinct dialect [ [2]], [ [3]]. The term 'northern edge' for Himariote isn't exactly right. Moreover, I have to check what's the relation between Nartiote and Himariote. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Himara a Copy/Paste of Suliots assimilation
Himariotet, (similar to Suliotet ) are the only remaining orthodox element of Laberia. The fact that today in Himara, there is a large number of families that speak Greek, is mostly related to economical reasons and Balkan geopolitics of the region. Greek language spoken in the last century in Himara is neither related to Corfu dialect (which is the closest Greek neighbor region) nor to other dialects of north of Greece, for the simple reason that is an alien dialect in this region. Greek language used in Himare is very much related to Cretan dialect, because of a certain number of emigrants or fugitives that cames to take refuge during Balkan wars. Another excellent argument to bring forward is that the majority of Family names in Himara are pure Albanian, even more pure than the rest of Albania. These names are very similar to Laberia family names like Gjonleka, Gjodeda, Gjoliku. Himarioti family names like Gjomema (Gjon Mema and not Janis Memas), Koleka (Kol Leka and not Nikolaidis Alexis), Ndrenika (Ndrek Nika and not Andreas Nikolaqis), Spiromile (Spiro Mile and not Spiridhonis Miles), Kokushta (Koke which mean “head” and Ushta that mean “spear” in Albanian) …etc, has nothing to do with Greeks. They are simply of pure Albanian race. What is happening today in Himara is actually the same tragic-comedy that happened 150 years ago, when Suliotes, from Albanian orthodox highlanders become Greek citizens. Now is Himara’s turn. We will see what is going to happen.
No google books results, no simple google results apart from wikipedia mirrors, no google scholar results i.e no results exist for Alexikoua's wp:or.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I wonder why the article was moved to the simpler move "Himariote dialect" from "H. Greek Dialect". It's good to have an explanation on that. Alexikoua ( talk) 11:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
I can't find anything about these in the source. — Lfdder ( talk) 11:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Some of the sources for this page describe Himariote as being a separate dialect from that spoken in Palasa and Dhermi-- so why are we treating them all as the same when it's at best controversial? I.e. the source that is used to say it's spoken in Dhermi and Palase itself explicitly mentions that many authors separate tehm.-- Yalens ( talk) 22:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Dhërmi/Drimades, Palasa and Himarë/Himara mainly use a local Greek dialect" (p.64). Thus, I assume that's considered as one dialect. However I'm not certain if there is a consensus about this. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Himariote dialect. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:35, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
I think this section currently displays an incomplete list of historical accounts regarding language and speech in the Himara region in the early Ottoman period. I believe it would be fair to present all such accounts and let the reader get a comprehensive picture. I do not think there are so many anyway. I recently added one reference of an account from 1500, which was removed by Khirurg. After this, Demetrios added one from 1703. Can we agree to keep both these sources in the section? Thank you. Çerçok ( talk) 14:37, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Alexikoua ( talk) 12:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
The figures were removed because Bon (2008) didn't propose that 8,000 people spoke this dialect. It only discusses the number of registered inhabitants of Himara.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 13:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Some linguistic studies which discuss the people and their languages were removed. If sources debate at length the historicity of Albanian/Greek speakers in the region and their linguistic contacts they should be debated at length in the article. The article can not promote a view which begins with a "continuous Greek presence" (as commented by a linguist from a university in Greece) but ignores that international linguistics considers the time of arrival of Albanians and Greeks and their languages a matter of open debate. Durraz0 ( talk) 15:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Durraz0: People and language aren't separated although these two papers discuss the language not the people. But even if we use sources which discuss the people primarily and the language secondarily, it's not an issue because the article already discusses about Greek presence in the context of ethnic Greeks which carried their language to the area. It's ahistorical overall to apply a methodology which separates the historical context from the linguistic one.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
At present they are still not considered as part of the recognized Greek minority by the Albanian state, while on the other hand they are counted as ethnic Greeks according to the Greek migration policy-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
The northwestern Greek dialect was spoken in this area, as such I'm astonished why this information should be fully removed from an article about a Greek dialect spoken in the same region. Whether related or not to the specific Himariote dialect it deserves a place in the history section. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Edit summary:
Çerçok, you are correct on vjeter and lashte; however, Kyriazis (2016 & 2020) gives examples that can be traced back to both ancient and medieval Greek forms. You also misplaced a sentence that pertained to the historical bilingualism.
Maleschreiber, Kyriazis doesn't limit the local -éos toponyms to three (Δραλέος, Ελατέος, Κασανέος), since he writes "etc." (etj.); in his 2006 and 2019 papers he provides five additional examples (Αργιλέος, Μερτέος, Φαγέος, Παπρέος, Ρωπλέος), and likewise ends with "etc.". Also, "Byzantine Ionian islands" isn't very accurate for this period, hence why i changed it to "medieval dialect of the Ionian islands". I also expanded it a little by elaborating that Himariote Greek has isoglosses that link it to a broader dialectal continuum throughout time, that is comprised of the Greek varieties from Sarandë, Delvinë, Gjirokastër, Nartë, Ionian Islands (including the Diapontia), and southern Italy; however, it has distinctive characteristics that don't support its origin from any other Greek-speaking area. The article can certainly be expanded with more details, but personally i don't have the time to do it now. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 12:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
For obvious reasons the first paragraphs of history section need a title since they do not deal with history in general (as the history section in general which is currently long enough to warrant separate subsections). Any alternative proposals are welcome, but the current title seems ok to me. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:17, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I wonder if there is a reason to remove information about the "linguistic boundary based on toponymity" provided that this offers information about the linguistic boundary of the Himariot dialect. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:33, 18 September 2022 (UTC)