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This article refers to both the "region" of Himara and the municipality. While the municipal borders are clear, the regional ones have changed over time, thus users have been deleting well-sourced content with the excuse that it is not included within the very subjectively defined borders of the region. The article previously defined the Himara region as including only the town of Himara, and the villages Dhermi, Pilur, Kudhes, Qeparo, Vuno, Ilias and Palase. This is not only wrong, but source that was cited [1] says absolutely nothing on the topic. Those settlements only match the previous municipality of Himara, before the merger with Hore-Vranisht and Lukove. This has nothing to do with the traditional region of Himare. Traditionally, Himare was a broader region which included the hinterland villages of Laberi. This gradually changed as the latter islamized, thus creating two regional identities based on religious differences, and Himare region, or "Bregdet", was restricted to the Orthodox villages of the coast. Please see here [2] for more. Please do not force edit your own views on what the region should or should not be, this is well-established academic knowledge. Çerçok ( talk) 16:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
As I said above, the Himare region has been a gradually changing notion that has no consensus even today. Here are some sources that do not define as town with 7 villages.
Please note that I am not claiming that there are no valid sources that define it as 7 villages, so there is no need to reply with an opposing list. I am only saying it more complicated and more contested than a straightforward line at the top of the article. That's why this should be moved to a section below, while the introduction part of the article should refer to the very clearly defined municipality. Çerçok ( talk) 03:51, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
It encompasses 8 villages and the municipal town that bears its name.Everyone can see that right here: [7]. But you left that sentence out. I even linked that source in one of my previous posts [8]! Did you think I wouldn't notice? Did you think that would fool anyone? This is proof of extreme intellectual dishonesty. We are absolutely not going to remove the traditional definition from the lede. But even if, for the sake or argument only, we accept your argument that the definition has been changing, why remove the traditional, and very solidly sourced, definition from the lede? We can just say that the definition has changed over the years. Why remove it altogether? Why hide it from our readers? So, why don't you tell us the real reason you are so determined to erase the original, traditional definition? Why? Khirurg ( talk) 04:17, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
"Traditionally perceived borders" is a slippery and unhelpful phrase: what "tradition" is being talked about? who is "perceiving" them? For that matter, is it clear that there were actually well-defined "borders"? Are these administrative borders defined by tax collectors? Are they defined by local kinship customs? Are we talking about the 16th century? the 19th century? Are they the limits of the area as described by Albanian or Greek schoolbooks of the 1920s? Are they claims made as part of some diplomatic negotiation? etc.
I submit that clarifying all that will both improve the article and help it conform to WP:NPOV. If it reads, say, "Ottoman tax collectors in the 16th century defined Himara as ..." and "The Kingdom of Albania defined Himara as ... in 1934", those are clear, verifiable, NPOV statements in a way that "traditionally perceived" is not. -- Macrakis ( talk) 14:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
I reverted its addition, because it is very obviously a POV statement. The article so far, based on a mixture of sources, gives a much more nuanced identity. Some mention an Albanian identity and language among local people, others a Greek identity and language. The Demographics section even, correctly, says that the identity of the population is colorful and fliud. Indeed, that is Himara: a place with a mixture of origins and identities. I do not agree with that addition to make a summary of the situation. One can open an RfC if they wish, I myself just do not agree with that. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 12:01, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Indicatively, even though Himare's population is not all Greek-speaking, the area had made an impression to foreign visitors in the past, because of the Greek sentiment of its people.]]
Well if there is a tendency to remove Nitsiakos altogether as POV I suggest to remove him in Vuno too as well as elsewhere. Partially use of specific works with the excuse ... I dont like it or ...very POV statement I myself just do not agree with that can be disruptive. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:46, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
One can open an RfC if they wish, I myself just do not agree with that." attitude constitutes WP:STONEWALLING which goes against the spirit of good faith and harms the consensus building. Furthermore, a RfC's role is to help towards a consensus building, not meant to be used for disruptive cases like this where there was deliberately no effort in building a consensus due to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:57, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
(ec) There is nothing wrong with Nitsiakos. We can keep both sentences, and attribute to Nitsiakos. How about Historically, there have been several theories about the ethnicity of the Himariotes. According to Vasilis Nitsiakos, though the population is not entirely Greek-speaking, foreign visitors were impressed by the Greek sentiment of the Himariotes.. I see no reason to exclude Nitsiakos. Khirurg ( talk) 16:24, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
This is stonewalling of a high level. Misusing WP:UNDUE and excuses about "not adding anything to the article" can be used to stonewall and prevent the addition of anything. I could just as easily claim that stuff you add "doesn't add anything to the article" and is "encyclopedically awkward". With excuses like this, anything can be prevented from being added.Please re-read your comments on the Peloponnese article. The difference is, this is about impressions, that one is about measured statistics.
Historically, there have been several conflicting theories about the ethnicity of the Himariotes. It should be removed, not because it's unsourced but because it's meaningless. Contradictions are related to how they perceive their ethnicity which has been very fluid in contemporary times. Both the quote and this sentence are without functional meaning in the context of how we should be trying to write an encyclopedia.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
On September 20, 2020 I started a discussion at
Qeparo (
Talk:Qeparo#The contortions of SYNTH) about how ethnicity is discussed in all Himara articles. Ethnicity is discussed as something that is , not as something that is a matter of choice. The sentence Qeparo is inhabited by both Albanians and Greeks
will make readers think that two groups live in Himara. One population lives in Himara, but members of the same families identify differently and their decisions are informed by their political and social preferences.
Many people in the region of Himara identify as Greeks. In particular, in the town of Himara and the villages of Dermi and Palasa most identify as Greeks, in the villages of Iljas, Lukovë, Kudhës, Pilur and Vuno as Orthodox Albanians, while the people of Qeparo identify in a mixed manner as Albanians or Greeks-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:06, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
The region of Himara is populated by a predominantly ethnic Greek community.is very strongly sourced to a multitude of reliable, international sources that directly back the statement, there is no synth whatsoever. What you are proposing is not. This is a red line. No word games and gimmicks, please. Later on, I suspect you will use similar tricks to remove that they identify as Greeks altogther ("ethnicity is complicated, it's best not discussed in the lede", "muh nuance", and the usual). No way. Khirurg ( talk) 17:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
members of the same families identify differently and their decisions are informed by their political and social preferences.", this is none of our concern here. However seeking to pass non-neutral changes on a very sensitive topic, changes which are attempting to portray a persecute minority in Albania in a less prominent light using exactly this kind of argument, and this at a time where the hardships this minority is facing, are undergoing, are extremely POV and unhelpful changes. Everyone should refrain from instigating problematic voting-based progresses that may seek to violate exactly this wp:neutral rule which tells us that neutrality cannot be superseded by editor consensus. Imagine if editors have tried to start a voting progress to do the same about minorities in i.e. North Macedonia's Albanian and Bulgarian minorities or Greece's Pomak and Roma minorities in favor of other communities in the same regions (i.e. Macedonian or Turkish), using such faulty arguments like "
members of the same families identify differently and their decisions are informed by their political and social preferences.like Maleshreiber did. If I were you I wouldn't go down this dangerous route. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 19:10, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
the first word used to describe himara in the first sentence of the lede should not be that it is bilingual. the fact that it is bilingual should be addressed later in the lede. Durraz0 ( talk) 17:07, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
An abandoned tourist guide which only exists on scribd, written by the former mayor
Vasil Bollano (who got less than 100 votes in the last elections they tried to get elected) was used for the claim that 85% of Himara spoke Greek as their mother tongue. Abandoned tourist guides with specific political narratives written/promoted by former mayors who are not linguists and have no links to academia whatsoever aren't RS - and I don't think that anyone can find support for the use of such publications in any guideline. (Side comment:
[10] Reading 11-year-old "justifications" for its use is very interesting - the problem doesn't lie in those who added it, but in those who accepted such bad use of bibliography) A new 2021 study written by Andrey Rusakov for Sobolev's Between Separation and Symbiosis:
The “Greek” population of Himara demonstrates also near equal proficiency in Greek and Albanian (although there are now some “Greek” monolinguals among the older generation). This fact may be explained by the presence of Albanian elements among the ancestors of Himara “Greeks”, i.e. by mixed marriages (Sobolev 2017). The participation of the Albanian elements in the formation of the contemporary Himara population is confirmed by his-torical data and by testimonies of individual speakers. However to answer the question of the role of mixed marriages in the formation of the current linguistic (and ethnic) landscape of Himara will be possible after a more detailed study of this problem.24 Another source of continuous preservation of a situation with a high level of mastery in both languages might be the processes of Hellenization of the Albanian population encouraged by the Orthodox church till the time of the founding of the Albanian independent state and supported in some way by the cultural differences between the Orthodox and Muslim parts of the Albanian population
The difference with what the article is discussing is jarring. I have added a summary of the paper, but I used a full citation for editors who want to expand it.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 22:16, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
How was this even used in the first place? This is not a reliable source because it expresses one person's opinion who happened to be mayor and his political opinion was reversed after he lost the elections. @ Maleschreiber: He got <70 votes. If we're going to say that a big or small percentage speaks a language in Himara then it should be a modern source which is reliable. Ahmet Q. ( talk) 00:10, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
it expresses one person's opinion who happened to be mayor and his political opinion was reversed after he lost the elections." A question. Can you point me to any policy here in Wikipedia which states that primary sources are dependent on whether the authority of the time, was re-elected or not? Because with this problematic reasoning, is like as if Wikipedia should only use statements and claims by dictators such as Lukashenko who stayed in power forever, while claims by democratic authorities shouldn't because -according to your logic- "opinions as Mayors were reversed by later defeats in elections". --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 00:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
wp:EXTRAORDINARY claims need strong reference and off course one wp:OFFLINE non-English reference isn't a strong argument for such a claim. There was no Albanian political entity that time. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:34, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm astonished for all your accusationsWhat accusations are you talking about? Please be specific. And if I am not mistaken, I did not delete anything.
No wonder if Himara was part of Albania in 16th century that's Frasheri's personal opinion. Once again, this is not his opinion or conclusion (which would still be respectable), this is him quoting 15th and 16th century documents. I am sure you understand the difference so this is just disruptive editing on your part, and next time you claim it is his opinion I will have to report it. On the other hand, if you have another source that cites the same documents in a different manner, please present it. Çerçok ( talk) 22:47, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
I have tagged as dubious a statement from Hammond (1994): It was at this time (18th century), that many Himariotes emigrated to Italy as a result of frequent attacks by Lab Albanians, on the grounds of ethnicity and religion; they still maintain their Greek identity.
This statement refers to the Arbëresh village of
Villa Badessa founded by refugees from
Piqeras. It has an Arbëresh/Albanian identity and today the local Albanian variety has official status. Hammond's statement contradicts everything else that we know about this community which still exists. Even more problematic: We are discussing Hammond's statement as a real event in
Piqeras and presenting it as if two attacks occurred which displaced two different groups: In 1742 the neighbouring Muslim Albanian village of Borsh attacked Piqeras making some Albanian speaking Orthodox Christians flee abroad to southern Italy where they founded the village of Villa Badessa. In 1744 an attack by Muslim Albanian groups forced the Greek-speaking inhabitants in Piqeras to leave the village
. In my opinion, Hammond (1994) - a republication from Hammond (1967) - should be removed.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 10:45, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
I wonder why the results of a controversial census that have been widely affected by boycott should be part of the lead. Its the first time in wikipedia that the results of a census are placed in introduction, even worst those data are not representatives in terms of local demographics. On the other hand there is enough material in scholarship that provides input about the demographic situation. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
The region of Himara is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek communityThis refers to the former municipality of Himara, not to the new municipality of Himara. It misleads the readers into thinking that the authors discuss a region which didn't exist when these sources were published 2)We can't exclude information about 2/3 of the municipality from the lead. @ Alexikoua: Do not remove information about 2/3 of the municipality again from the lead. Alternatively, we can remove all information and discuss the issue simply as
The inhabitants of the region identify themselves as Albanians or Greeks and are bilingualwhich is what I would prefer in the first place, but since the community has decided that we should mention every little detail about ethnicity in the intro, at least we should do it in an inclusive way. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:44, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Until now the article stated:
The statement by Frazee from 2006, however, is not supported by the literature. Since then Giakoumis, Tudorie, Frasheri and Xhufi have all discussed the letters and not found anything similar. Thankfully the letters were published in full by Tudorie's restitution of Laurent's work here: [18]. Correct me if I am wrong, but the statement by Frazee is nowhere to be found. I am now correcting this part of the article. Çerçok ( talk) 10:11, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
In 1577 thirty-eight chieftains of the Orthodox Himare region of Albania appealed to Pope Gregory XIII for arms and supplies sufficient to fit out an army of ten thousand. They promised to transfer their religious allegiance to Rome and to recognize Philip II of Spain as their sovereign. They asked only that their priests be allowed to retain their Eastern liturgical customs, 'since the majority of the population is Greek and they do not understand the Frankish language. Philip II also received a personal communication from them, but was hardly willing to become king of Albania. From this time the Himarens accepted the pope as religious head and identified themselves with the Catholic church..
since the majority of the population was Greek and didn't understand the Frankish language. The full sentence is:
huiusmodi sacri ordini homines administrent Sacramenta, et celebrent iuxtra nostrum usum et ritum; cum ut plurimum et maiori ex parte sint Graeci et latina lingua ignorent; ubi vero fuerint Latini, latino ritu celebrent(Men of this sacred order deliver the sacraments and practice them according to our custom and rite; since for the most part they are Greeks and do not know the Latin language; but where they are Latins, they practice [religion] in the Latin rite) Hence the letter refers to the religious customs of the region. The signatories are not "elders from Himara" but the villages of the Bishopric of Himara, hence it includes Kurvelesh and villages as far inland as Zhulat. Thus it couldn't be referring to linguistic identity even if the full quote wasn't as clear as it is. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I will just provide the quote from source and the text that was supposed to be based on this quote in order to focus on the discrepancy here:
Quote: "the Albanian population, from the lake of Shkodra to Kosova, were one with the other Christian populations. At the time of the Ottoman invasion of 1389, Greek authors mention, after the Serbs and the Bulgarians, the Northern Albanians, those of Himara, Epyrus and the coast."
Text supposed to be based on this quote: "Himariotes and other Albanians from Epirus and the coast participated at the
Battle of Kosovo.
Alexikoua (
talk) 04:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Alexikoua: A full quote of Hammond is needed. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:15, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
This edit summary is quite weird and needs explanation [ [20]]. It appears that we have massive removals of well cited information while the edit summary is complete wrong in this case: Kaser 1992 does not refer to "Greeks of Himara". in fact he refers in detail to Greeks in Himara, Kaser 1992 is refuted by Kaser 2012 where does he refute himself? actually nowhere in the case of the Greeks in Himara. Also a productive editor can't perform massive removals with the excuse of a source being offline, which in fact is not. But if this is the real case I can add additional information on the issue of how Karl and Hammond describe the phratria system with quotes included. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Die Teilgeschlechter hießen hier nicht » Fis « , sondern » Phratrien «Then the source goes on to give say
In Kudhës teilte sich das Geschlecht Kongjinaj beispielsweise in die Phratrien Nikaj , Kushtaj und Kalcuaju. They are not "Greeks in Himara" as your own conclusion is: Nikaj, Kushtaj and Kalcuaju obviously are Albanian family names. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Both Hammond and Kaser mention the Phratria based structure. As such it can be part of the social analysis of the population. Alexikoua ( talk) 01:57, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
This ancient Greek term is not in use elsewhere in the Greek peninsula It is probably a case not of survival from ancient times but of similar conditions producing a similar system a name which is natural to the Greek language. But you wrote in the article
Phatria comes from ancient Greek and has not survived elsewhere among the later Greek communities. Your edit was not in line with Hammond. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 20:15, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That addition [22] is very redundant. I do not know other similar articles of Balkan cities having stuff of the kind "X leader from Y country visited Z place for the first time". For instance, I do not see in the History section of Athens sth like "The Albanian PM visited for the first time the Albanian community of Athens". Aditions of such content that make the article look like a news collection site should be reverted Ktrimi991 ( talk) 00:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. For example, routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities, while sometimes useful, is not by itself a sufficient basis for inclusion of the subject of that coverage (see WP:ROUTINE for more on this with regard to routine events).If you can place it in a broader narrative as part of bilateral relations between Albania-Greece, agreements etc, definitely add it as part of this narrative on Greeks in Albania. A particular event may receive media attention but this doesn't make it particularly relevant as encyclopedic content. I can see as valid the addition under a contextualized narrative in the article Albania-Greece relations. The point is to include news items in a broader context in relevant articles.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. The event by itself is not something which would be covered on wikipedia, but I suggested that you can place the event and other such events during this series of visits (Dropull, Finiq) in a broader narrative in these two relevant articles not as a separate news item. Nobody is saying that it shouldn't be discussed in general, but that an encyclopedia may discuss it in specific narrative/articles.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
It's the first time in the entire history of the region that a foreign head of state has made an official visit.Kosovo's President was in Himara years ago [23]. Croatia's President too [24]. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 02:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Not that I see any mention of Himara in the article about the Croatian President.Then read it again.
and you should know that it will not convince neutral users at an RfC.If you think so, feel free to open an RfC. After all it is clear you can't convince us to agree with the change you want to make. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 02:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
This Muncipality of Himarë is created in 2015. So the references that are pre 2015 and contributed to this sentence "The municipal unit of Himarë is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek community." automatically lose their value in this aspect. Feel free for any discussions i wont change anything yet. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 10:29, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
Alexikoua added this abstracted single phrase based on Floristan: Himara was among the Greek inhabited regions where revolutionary activity was mainly reported during the period 1571-1621.
I have removed his edit as it refers to
anti-Ottoman activity in 1571-73, the
Himara Revolt of 1596 and more distantly to the
Epirus revolt of 1611. All articles discuss these events as involving Albanians in Himara in line with archival sources and in line the consensus in bibliography - including Floristan who explicitly and repeatedly has described these events as involving Albanians. The sources which describe the demographics of the region during this period in the article at most describe only three villages as being Greek-speaking in 1722 - 150 years later than the statement under discussion. As such, Alexikoua's edit contradicts multiple other articles/sources and the content of this article. It is an abstraction from a single phrase which doesn't reflect even the work of the author who was cited.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 20:24, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Tres fueron las regiones griegas de mayor actividad antiotomana en el periodo analizado, las tres situadas en la fachada adriática de los Balcanes: en el norte, la Chimarra (Cimara, Himarë), en el Epiro septentrional, con una ramificación interior hacia el arzobispado de Acrida.. I don't believe that Floristan has a POV agenda since you are against inclusion of such views. If we need to name some POV authors that have been accused for promoting nationalism I can name a few, but Floristan isn't among them. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:10, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
a participación de griegos exiliados o residentes en territorio otomano en estos enfrentamientos fue destacada. En los cincuenta años transcurridos entre Lepanto y la muerte de Felipe III (1571-1621) los contactos de las autoridades es�pañolas con diversas regiones de la fachada adriático-jónica de los Balcanes como Chimarra, Epiro y Maina, pero también con otras regiones más alejadas, como Chipre, fueron regularesThe paper is titled: The Greek diaspora of the Renaissance in the territories of the Spanish Monarchy, on the other hand some abstract argument that those statements are "abstract", that Himara was "purely Albanian", non-Greek at all before 1720 without providing the slightest piece of scholarship. Alexikoua ( talk) 03:43, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Himarë article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article refers to both the "region" of Himara and the municipality. While the municipal borders are clear, the regional ones have changed over time, thus users have been deleting well-sourced content with the excuse that it is not included within the very subjectively defined borders of the region. The article previously defined the Himara region as including only the town of Himara, and the villages Dhermi, Pilur, Kudhes, Qeparo, Vuno, Ilias and Palase. This is not only wrong, but source that was cited [1] says absolutely nothing on the topic. Those settlements only match the previous municipality of Himara, before the merger with Hore-Vranisht and Lukove. This has nothing to do with the traditional region of Himare. Traditionally, Himare was a broader region which included the hinterland villages of Laberi. This gradually changed as the latter islamized, thus creating two regional identities based on religious differences, and Himare region, or "Bregdet", was restricted to the Orthodox villages of the coast. Please see here [2] for more. Please do not force edit your own views on what the region should or should not be, this is well-established academic knowledge. Çerçok ( talk) 16:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
As I said above, the Himare region has been a gradually changing notion that has no consensus even today. Here are some sources that do not define as town with 7 villages.
Please note that I am not claiming that there are no valid sources that define it as 7 villages, so there is no need to reply with an opposing list. I am only saying it more complicated and more contested than a straightforward line at the top of the article. That's why this should be moved to a section below, while the introduction part of the article should refer to the very clearly defined municipality. Çerçok ( talk) 03:51, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
It encompasses 8 villages and the municipal town that bears its name.Everyone can see that right here: [7]. But you left that sentence out. I even linked that source in one of my previous posts [8]! Did you think I wouldn't notice? Did you think that would fool anyone? This is proof of extreme intellectual dishonesty. We are absolutely not going to remove the traditional definition from the lede. But even if, for the sake or argument only, we accept your argument that the definition has been changing, why remove the traditional, and very solidly sourced, definition from the lede? We can just say that the definition has changed over the years. Why remove it altogether? Why hide it from our readers? So, why don't you tell us the real reason you are so determined to erase the original, traditional definition? Why? Khirurg ( talk) 04:17, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
"Traditionally perceived borders" is a slippery and unhelpful phrase: what "tradition" is being talked about? who is "perceiving" them? For that matter, is it clear that there were actually well-defined "borders"? Are these administrative borders defined by tax collectors? Are they defined by local kinship customs? Are we talking about the 16th century? the 19th century? Are they the limits of the area as described by Albanian or Greek schoolbooks of the 1920s? Are they claims made as part of some diplomatic negotiation? etc.
I submit that clarifying all that will both improve the article and help it conform to WP:NPOV. If it reads, say, "Ottoman tax collectors in the 16th century defined Himara as ..." and "The Kingdom of Albania defined Himara as ... in 1934", those are clear, verifiable, NPOV statements in a way that "traditionally perceived" is not. -- Macrakis ( talk) 14:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
I reverted its addition, because it is very obviously a POV statement. The article so far, based on a mixture of sources, gives a much more nuanced identity. Some mention an Albanian identity and language among local people, others a Greek identity and language. The Demographics section even, correctly, says that the identity of the population is colorful and fliud. Indeed, that is Himara: a place with a mixture of origins and identities. I do not agree with that addition to make a summary of the situation. One can open an RfC if they wish, I myself just do not agree with that. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 12:01, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Indicatively, even though Himare's population is not all Greek-speaking, the area had made an impression to foreign visitors in the past, because of the Greek sentiment of its people.]]
Well if there is a tendency to remove Nitsiakos altogether as POV I suggest to remove him in Vuno too as well as elsewhere. Partially use of specific works with the excuse ... I dont like it or ...very POV statement I myself just do not agree with that can be disruptive. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:46, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
One can open an RfC if they wish, I myself just do not agree with that." attitude constitutes WP:STONEWALLING which goes against the spirit of good faith and harms the consensus building. Furthermore, a RfC's role is to help towards a consensus building, not meant to be used for disruptive cases like this where there was deliberately no effort in building a consensus due to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:57, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
(ec) There is nothing wrong with Nitsiakos. We can keep both sentences, and attribute to Nitsiakos. How about Historically, there have been several theories about the ethnicity of the Himariotes. According to Vasilis Nitsiakos, though the population is not entirely Greek-speaking, foreign visitors were impressed by the Greek sentiment of the Himariotes.. I see no reason to exclude Nitsiakos. Khirurg ( talk) 16:24, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
This is stonewalling of a high level. Misusing WP:UNDUE and excuses about "not adding anything to the article" can be used to stonewall and prevent the addition of anything. I could just as easily claim that stuff you add "doesn't add anything to the article" and is "encyclopedically awkward". With excuses like this, anything can be prevented from being added.Please re-read your comments on the Peloponnese article. The difference is, this is about impressions, that one is about measured statistics.
Historically, there have been several conflicting theories about the ethnicity of the Himariotes. It should be removed, not because it's unsourced but because it's meaningless. Contradictions are related to how they perceive their ethnicity which has been very fluid in contemporary times. Both the quote and this sentence are without functional meaning in the context of how we should be trying to write an encyclopedia.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
On September 20, 2020 I started a discussion at
Qeparo (
Talk:Qeparo#The contortions of SYNTH) about how ethnicity is discussed in all Himara articles. Ethnicity is discussed as something that is , not as something that is a matter of choice. The sentence Qeparo is inhabited by both Albanians and Greeks
will make readers think that two groups live in Himara. One population lives in Himara, but members of the same families identify differently and their decisions are informed by their political and social preferences.
Many people in the region of Himara identify as Greeks. In particular, in the town of Himara and the villages of Dermi and Palasa most identify as Greeks, in the villages of Iljas, Lukovë, Kudhës, Pilur and Vuno as Orthodox Albanians, while the people of Qeparo identify in a mixed manner as Albanians or Greeks-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:06, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
The region of Himara is populated by a predominantly ethnic Greek community.is very strongly sourced to a multitude of reliable, international sources that directly back the statement, there is no synth whatsoever. What you are proposing is not. This is a red line. No word games and gimmicks, please. Later on, I suspect you will use similar tricks to remove that they identify as Greeks altogther ("ethnicity is complicated, it's best not discussed in the lede", "muh nuance", and the usual). No way. Khirurg ( talk) 17:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
members of the same families identify differently and their decisions are informed by their political and social preferences.", this is none of our concern here. However seeking to pass non-neutral changes on a very sensitive topic, changes which are attempting to portray a persecute minority in Albania in a less prominent light using exactly this kind of argument, and this at a time where the hardships this minority is facing, are undergoing, are extremely POV and unhelpful changes. Everyone should refrain from instigating problematic voting-based progresses that may seek to violate exactly this wp:neutral rule which tells us that neutrality cannot be superseded by editor consensus. Imagine if editors have tried to start a voting progress to do the same about minorities in i.e. North Macedonia's Albanian and Bulgarian minorities or Greece's Pomak and Roma minorities in favor of other communities in the same regions (i.e. Macedonian or Turkish), using such faulty arguments like "
members of the same families identify differently and their decisions are informed by their political and social preferences.like Maleshreiber did. If I were you I wouldn't go down this dangerous route. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 19:10, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
the first word used to describe himara in the first sentence of the lede should not be that it is bilingual. the fact that it is bilingual should be addressed later in the lede. Durraz0 ( talk) 17:07, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
An abandoned tourist guide which only exists on scribd, written by the former mayor
Vasil Bollano (who got less than 100 votes in the last elections they tried to get elected) was used for the claim that 85% of Himara spoke Greek as their mother tongue. Abandoned tourist guides with specific political narratives written/promoted by former mayors who are not linguists and have no links to academia whatsoever aren't RS - and I don't think that anyone can find support for the use of such publications in any guideline. (Side comment:
[10] Reading 11-year-old "justifications" for its use is very interesting - the problem doesn't lie in those who added it, but in those who accepted such bad use of bibliography) A new 2021 study written by Andrey Rusakov for Sobolev's Between Separation and Symbiosis:
The “Greek” population of Himara demonstrates also near equal proficiency in Greek and Albanian (although there are now some “Greek” monolinguals among the older generation). This fact may be explained by the presence of Albanian elements among the ancestors of Himara “Greeks”, i.e. by mixed marriages (Sobolev 2017). The participation of the Albanian elements in the formation of the contemporary Himara population is confirmed by his-torical data and by testimonies of individual speakers. However to answer the question of the role of mixed marriages in the formation of the current linguistic (and ethnic) landscape of Himara will be possible after a more detailed study of this problem.24 Another source of continuous preservation of a situation with a high level of mastery in both languages might be the processes of Hellenization of the Albanian population encouraged by the Orthodox church till the time of the founding of the Albanian independent state and supported in some way by the cultural differences between the Orthodox and Muslim parts of the Albanian population
The difference with what the article is discussing is jarring. I have added a summary of the paper, but I used a full citation for editors who want to expand it.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 22:16, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
How was this even used in the first place? This is not a reliable source because it expresses one person's opinion who happened to be mayor and his political opinion was reversed after he lost the elections. @ Maleschreiber: He got <70 votes. If we're going to say that a big or small percentage speaks a language in Himara then it should be a modern source which is reliable. Ahmet Q. ( talk) 00:10, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
it expresses one person's opinion who happened to be mayor and his political opinion was reversed after he lost the elections." A question. Can you point me to any policy here in Wikipedia which states that primary sources are dependent on whether the authority of the time, was re-elected or not? Because with this problematic reasoning, is like as if Wikipedia should only use statements and claims by dictators such as Lukashenko who stayed in power forever, while claims by democratic authorities shouldn't because -according to your logic- "opinions as Mayors were reversed by later defeats in elections". --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 00:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
wp:EXTRAORDINARY claims need strong reference and off course one wp:OFFLINE non-English reference isn't a strong argument for such a claim. There was no Albanian political entity that time. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:34, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm astonished for all your accusationsWhat accusations are you talking about? Please be specific. And if I am not mistaken, I did not delete anything.
No wonder if Himara was part of Albania in 16th century that's Frasheri's personal opinion. Once again, this is not his opinion or conclusion (which would still be respectable), this is him quoting 15th and 16th century documents. I am sure you understand the difference so this is just disruptive editing on your part, and next time you claim it is his opinion I will have to report it. On the other hand, if you have another source that cites the same documents in a different manner, please present it. Çerçok ( talk) 22:47, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
I have tagged as dubious a statement from Hammond (1994): It was at this time (18th century), that many Himariotes emigrated to Italy as a result of frequent attacks by Lab Albanians, on the grounds of ethnicity and religion; they still maintain their Greek identity.
This statement refers to the Arbëresh village of
Villa Badessa founded by refugees from
Piqeras. It has an Arbëresh/Albanian identity and today the local Albanian variety has official status. Hammond's statement contradicts everything else that we know about this community which still exists. Even more problematic: We are discussing Hammond's statement as a real event in
Piqeras and presenting it as if two attacks occurred which displaced two different groups: In 1742 the neighbouring Muslim Albanian village of Borsh attacked Piqeras making some Albanian speaking Orthodox Christians flee abroad to southern Italy where they founded the village of Villa Badessa. In 1744 an attack by Muslim Albanian groups forced the Greek-speaking inhabitants in Piqeras to leave the village
. In my opinion, Hammond (1994) - a republication from Hammond (1967) - should be removed.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 10:45, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
I wonder why the results of a controversial census that have been widely affected by boycott should be part of the lead. Its the first time in wikipedia that the results of a census are placed in introduction, even worst those data are not representatives in terms of local demographics. On the other hand there is enough material in scholarship that provides input about the demographic situation. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
The region of Himara is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek communityThis refers to the former municipality of Himara, not to the new municipality of Himara. It misleads the readers into thinking that the authors discuss a region which didn't exist when these sources were published 2)We can't exclude information about 2/3 of the municipality from the lead. @ Alexikoua: Do not remove information about 2/3 of the municipality again from the lead. Alternatively, we can remove all information and discuss the issue simply as
The inhabitants of the region identify themselves as Albanians or Greeks and are bilingualwhich is what I would prefer in the first place, but since the community has decided that we should mention every little detail about ethnicity in the intro, at least we should do it in an inclusive way. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:44, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Until now the article stated:
The statement by Frazee from 2006, however, is not supported by the literature. Since then Giakoumis, Tudorie, Frasheri and Xhufi have all discussed the letters and not found anything similar. Thankfully the letters were published in full by Tudorie's restitution of Laurent's work here: [18]. Correct me if I am wrong, but the statement by Frazee is nowhere to be found. I am now correcting this part of the article. Çerçok ( talk) 10:11, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
In 1577 thirty-eight chieftains of the Orthodox Himare region of Albania appealed to Pope Gregory XIII for arms and supplies sufficient to fit out an army of ten thousand. They promised to transfer their religious allegiance to Rome and to recognize Philip II of Spain as their sovereign. They asked only that their priests be allowed to retain their Eastern liturgical customs, 'since the majority of the population is Greek and they do not understand the Frankish language. Philip II also received a personal communication from them, but was hardly willing to become king of Albania. From this time the Himarens accepted the pope as religious head and identified themselves with the Catholic church..
since the majority of the population was Greek and didn't understand the Frankish language. The full sentence is:
huiusmodi sacri ordini homines administrent Sacramenta, et celebrent iuxtra nostrum usum et ritum; cum ut plurimum et maiori ex parte sint Graeci et latina lingua ignorent; ubi vero fuerint Latini, latino ritu celebrent(Men of this sacred order deliver the sacraments and practice them according to our custom and rite; since for the most part they are Greeks and do not know the Latin language; but where they are Latins, they practice [religion] in the Latin rite) Hence the letter refers to the religious customs of the region. The signatories are not "elders from Himara" but the villages of the Bishopric of Himara, hence it includes Kurvelesh and villages as far inland as Zhulat. Thus it couldn't be referring to linguistic identity even if the full quote wasn't as clear as it is. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I will just provide the quote from source and the text that was supposed to be based on this quote in order to focus on the discrepancy here:
Quote: "the Albanian population, from the lake of Shkodra to Kosova, were one with the other Christian populations. At the time of the Ottoman invasion of 1389, Greek authors mention, after the Serbs and the Bulgarians, the Northern Albanians, those of Himara, Epyrus and the coast."
Text supposed to be based on this quote: "Himariotes and other Albanians from Epirus and the coast participated at the
Battle of Kosovo.
Alexikoua (
talk) 04:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Alexikoua: A full quote of Hammond is needed. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:15, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
This edit summary is quite weird and needs explanation [ [20]]. It appears that we have massive removals of well cited information while the edit summary is complete wrong in this case: Kaser 1992 does not refer to "Greeks of Himara". in fact he refers in detail to Greeks in Himara, Kaser 1992 is refuted by Kaser 2012 where does he refute himself? actually nowhere in the case of the Greeks in Himara. Also a productive editor can't perform massive removals with the excuse of a source being offline, which in fact is not. But if this is the real case I can add additional information on the issue of how Karl and Hammond describe the phratria system with quotes included. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Die Teilgeschlechter hießen hier nicht » Fis « , sondern » Phratrien «Then the source goes on to give say
In Kudhës teilte sich das Geschlecht Kongjinaj beispielsweise in die Phratrien Nikaj , Kushtaj und Kalcuaju. They are not "Greeks in Himara" as your own conclusion is: Nikaj, Kushtaj and Kalcuaju obviously are Albanian family names. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Both Hammond and Kaser mention the Phratria based structure. As such it can be part of the social analysis of the population. Alexikoua ( talk) 01:57, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
This ancient Greek term is not in use elsewhere in the Greek peninsula It is probably a case not of survival from ancient times but of similar conditions producing a similar system a name which is natural to the Greek language. But you wrote in the article
Phatria comes from ancient Greek and has not survived elsewhere among the later Greek communities. Your edit was not in line with Hammond. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 20:15, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That addition [22] is very redundant. I do not know other similar articles of Balkan cities having stuff of the kind "X leader from Y country visited Z place for the first time". For instance, I do not see in the History section of Athens sth like "The Albanian PM visited for the first time the Albanian community of Athens". Aditions of such content that make the article look like a news collection site should be reverted Ktrimi991 ( talk) 00:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. For example, routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities, while sometimes useful, is not by itself a sufficient basis for inclusion of the subject of that coverage (see WP:ROUTINE for more on this with regard to routine events).If you can place it in a broader narrative as part of bilateral relations between Albania-Greece, agreements etc, definitely add it as part of this narrative on Greeks in Albania. A particular event may receive media attention but this doesn't make it particularly relevant as encyclopedic content. I can see as valid the addition under a contextualized narrative in the article Albania-Greece relations. The point is to include news items in a broader context in relevant articles.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. The event by itself is not something which would be covered on wikipedia, but I suggested that you can place the event and other such events during this series of visits (Dropull, Finiq) in a broader narrative in these two relevant articles not as a separate news item. Nobody is saying that it shouldn't be discussed in general, but that an encyclopedia may discuss it in specific narrative/articles.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
It's the first time in the entire history of the region that a foreign head of state has made an official visit.Kosovo's President was in Himara years ago [23]. Croatia's President too [24]. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 02:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Not that I see any mention of Himara in the article about the Croatian President.Then read it again.
and you should know that it will not convince neutral users at an RfC.If you think so, feel free to open an RfC. After all it is clear you can't convince us to agree with the change you want to make. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 02:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
This Muncipality of Himarë is created in 2015. So the references that are pre 2015 and contributed to this sentence "The municipal unit of Himarë is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek community." automatically lose their value in this aspect. Feel free for any discussions i wont change anything yet. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 10:29, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
Alexikoua added this abstracted single phrase based on Floristan: Himara was among the Greek inhabited regions where revolutionary activity was mainly reported during the period 1571-1621.
I have removed his edit as it refers to
anti-Ottoman activity in 1571-73, the
Himara Revolt of 1596 and more distantly to the
Epirus revolt of 1611. All articles discuss these events as involving Albanians in Himara in line with archival sources and in line the consensus in bibliography - including Floristan who explicitly and repeatedly has described these events as involving Albanians. The sources which describe the demographics of the region during this period in the article at most describe only three villages as being Greek-speaking in 1722 - 150 years later than the statement under discussion. As such, Alexikoua's edit contradicts multiple other articles/sources and the content of this article. It is an abstraction from a single phrase which doesn't reflect even the work of the author who was cited.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 20:24, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Tres fueron las regiones griegas de mayor actividad antiotomana en el periodo analizado, las tres situadas en la fachada adriática de los Balcanes: en el norte, la Chimarra (Cimara, Himarë), en el Epiro septentrional, con una ramificación interior hacia el arzobispado de Acrida.. I don't believe that Floristan has a POV agenda since you are against inclusion of such views. If we need to name some POV authors that have been accused for promoting nationalism I can name a few, but Floristan isn't among them. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:10, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
a participación de griegos exiliados o residentes en territorio otomano en estos enfrentamientos fue destacada. En los cincuenta años transcurridos entre Lepanto y la muerte de Felipe III (1571-1621) los contactos de las autoridades es�pañolas con diversas regiones de la fachada adriático-jónica de los Balcanes como Chimarra, Epiro y Maina, pero también con otras regiones más alejadas, como Chipre, fueron regularesThe paper is titled: The Greek diaspora of the Renaissance in the territories of the Spanish Monarchy, on the other hand some abstract argument that those statements are "abstract", that Himara was "purely Albanian", non-Greek at all before 1720 without providing the slightest piece of scholarship. Alexikoua ( talk) 03:43, 18 July 2023 (UTC)