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Wasted Time, I see that you've twice removed links to the thesis, stating that it is probably a copright-violation copy. I understand why you would not post material here that might violate a copyright, but does the same logic lead you not to link to a document that has been posted elsewhere? In other words, the availability of the thesis online is notable. KillerAsteroids 01:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the burden of proof is on people who claim that WP cannot include this material even if there is no documented violation of copyright., when it comes to things Wikipedia, the "burden" pretty much always tends to fall on those wanting to add something rather than those trying to remove something; for example, if some editor adds unsourced content to an article which is subsequently removed by another editor, WP:BURDEN says that it's the responsibility of the editor wanting to add the content to provide a citation to a reliable source in support. Even then, the encyclopedic value of adding the content can still be challenged (for example by WP:NOTEVERYTHING) and the burden then falls upon those wanting to add it to establish a WP:CONSENSUS to do so. The same applies to external links per WP:ELBURDEN; even if there were no copyright concerns, the burden would still be upon those wanting to add the link to establish a consensus to do so. The fact that there are copyright concerns means (per WP:ELNEVER and WP:COPYLINK) means (at least in my opinion) that the burden further falls upon those wanting to add the link to not only establish a consensus for its encyclopedic value, but also more importantly that it's not a copyright violation. If the link is questionable for copyright reasons, then it shouldn't be added as long as there's reasonable doubt as to whether it's a copyright violation. This is pretty much how image files are treated (see c:COM:PCP and WP:GOTLETTER) and is pretty much the reason why links to any audio or video dedicated websites are almost never allowed per WP:YOUTUBE unless they are to official channels/sites controlled by the original copyright holder. So, if Hillary Clinton posted a link to her thesis on one of here official websites, then I don't think there would be any problem in linking to it; links to other websites (unconnected to her) hosting the content, however, is not so clear (at least in my opinion). The fact that neither she nore anyone connected with her has apparently yet to taken any legal action against these sites is not a good reason in and of itself to justify adding links to the content on Wikipedia. With respect to your comment
I think we should consider the possibility that the real reason people have been trying to obscure the link to her thesis is to avoid the embarrassment of people learning what she wrote., Wikipedia's role is not really to try and set the record straight and Wikipedia encourages to try and assume in good faith that other editors are WP:HERE (at least until there's evidence found to the contrary). Trying to guess the motivations of those wanting to remove the link is pretty much just as bad as trying to guess the motivations of those wanting to include the link and discussion based upon such things often quickly deteriorate into WP:USTHEM or WP:POVFIGHTER. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:32, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Aardvark231 turns out to have been a sock, so I've struck their edits and deleted the one that has had no reply. I gave them an AGF message yesterday and they told me they had until it became obvious to them you all weren't editing in good faith. I always love it when a sock accuses others of editing in bad faith. Doug Weller talk 11:44, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
This thesis appears to have no per se notability, but is only relevant through its connection to the Clinton's---and only after their entering the White House. Further, the length of the treatment is excessively long and detailed, IMO. I suggest that this page be shortened to the bare minimum and then be merged with Hillary Rodham Clinton. Michael Eriksson ( talk) 13:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. This is an example of WP:Summary style in action; the Hillary Rodham Clinton article already contains a summary of the thesis and its import:
There isn't any space in that article to discuss it any further, and to do so would cause weighting issues as well. This article here is the place to expand upon it. While you may not hear a lot about the thesis now, it was indeed the subject of considerable speculation and controversy at the time, and it merits this article. And Alinsky connections still abound in today's political world, from allegations of influence on Obama to the tactics of that guy who did the ACORN undercover video, giving this article further relevance.
In sum, a merge isn't going to happen, since it's already covered in the main bio article as much as it can be. If you really feel that this subject doesn't deserve this article, you should bring it to AfD, and then everybody will give their views on it. Wasted Time R ( talk) 13:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Your point about merging vs deleting is likely valid; in particular, I did not actually check the main article for any existing discussion. I would in this situation tend towards a deletion, noting that WP entries should be of lasting interest (and doubting that the previous interest in the thesis will be of greater relevance from a historical POV).
Unfortunately, I would need to review the AfD guidelines before I move this issue on---which is not going to happen in the next week or so, due to time constraints. Michael Eriksson ( talk) 17:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I have not gotten around to study the AfD guidelines; in particular, as US politics is not one of my main interest, and my original "rock in the shoe" was undue discussion of a thesis of little to no academic significance. (Note the difference between the controversy and the thesis per se) Instead of an outright deletion (if that would have turned out to be appropriate), I would suggest one of the following:
Obviously, I have no objections should someone else wish to start an AfD.
In a bigger picture, I (as a European) feel that many "USanians" tend to put greater weight and importance on the respective current President and his surroundings than can be justified in historical and international perspective. Hillary has, so far, been a First Lady, a senator of no particular importance (for a senator), and a runner-up for presidential nomination (not even president, just nomination). If that remains her CV, she will be not be considered a highly significant person in a hundred years' time; while Bill will at least be a name in the list of presidents, remembered as much or as little as Grover Cleveland today. (Most Europeans will have no idea who Cleveland was; I suspect that the same is true for very many of the US youngsters of today.) Should she still manage to end up the first female President, then by all means... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Eriksson ( talk • contribs) 20:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
It's now been over a month since the merge tags went up, with no consensus found towards doing so. I'm removing the tags. Renaming or an AfD nomination remain possible. Wasted Time R ( talk) 10:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, this article's topic appears to be notable chiefly for being a somewhat minor 1990's campaign controversy which some wanted to resurrect as an issue in 2008, but which didn't catch fire in that year, either (though it might have if Hillary had captured the Democratic nomination). The main argument for not merging is that the thesis wouldn't receive the same level of detailed treatment if it were just a paragraph in the main Hillary Clinton article... AnonMoos ( talk) 13:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Please fix the citations links. #7 leads to a pornographic website. [16:19, November 1, 2012 24.47.28.212]
I have nominated this article for deletion. It is a very niche article that is not notable enough for the encyclopedia. It can be merged elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.182.11 ( talk) 21:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
(Please note: I have removed the merge template from here, as it is meant to appear on the article itself so that more people can see it. The IP has proposed merging this page into either Hillary Rodham Clinton or Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton. All discussion should be centralized at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Merge proposal) AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 06:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The content of this article does not seem sufficiently notable to warrant a page of its own. The details could be merged quite easily into the two above articles. 86.158.182.11 ( talk) 15:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
(Please continue this discussion at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Merge proposal. AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 06:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC))
This article has been requested for deletion multiple times. The article itself has nothing noteworthy about it - an ex-presidents wife wrote an essay in university (which makes people suspicious of her, if they are of opposing political viewpoints) and this essay has no impact on life, it has not modified any policies, it has not triggered an international debate (or even a US debate or policy change).
This essay is unremarkable and this article is simply being used to point and say 'look this person said something i don't like and its a CONSPIRACY!!!11!'. Which pretty well violates more than one guideline (at least WP:NPOV and WP:Criticism for sure). All references are from journalists who cite a single orginal source, who is simply speculating about timelines. Seriously, there should be no debate. Either merge the information about the controversy or delete this page. I think it should be deleted. So...here we go. AGAIN. 158.169.150.8 ( talk) 14:00, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
She goes by Hillary Clinton. Nobody will look for her as "Hillary Rodham". Why shouldn't this be redirected to " Hillary Clinton senior thesis" instead of the other way around? Zigzig20s ( talk) 18:20, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
when discussing the early lives of Hillary and Bill Clinton, use 'Rodham met Clinton while they were students at Yale', referring to Hillary using her then-current surname". The thesis was written by Hillary Rodham, and that is what it says on its cover page (which is shown in the article). — BarrelProof ( talk) 22:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
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Does this really have lasting notability, re: WP:NOTNEWS/ WP:N? I !voted delete in the AfD back in 2016, and I'm considering a re-nom. Jr8825 • Talk 02:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Wasted Time, I see that you've twice removed links to the thesis, stating that it is probably a copright-violation copy. I understand why you would not post material here that might violate a copyright, but does the same logic lead you not to link to a document that has been posted elsewhere? In other words, the availability of the thesis online is notable. KillerAsteroids 01:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the burden of proof is on people who claim that WP cannot include this material even if there is no documented violation of copyright., when it comes to things Wikipedia, the "burden" pretty much always tends to fall on those wanting to add something rather than those trying to remove something; for example, if some editor adds unsourced content to an article which is subsequently removed by another editor, WP:BURDEN says that it's the responsibility of the editor wanting to add the content to provide a citation to a reliable source in support. Even then, the encyclopedic value of adding the content can still be challenged (for example by WP:NOTEVERYTHING) and the burden then falls upon those wanting to add it to establish a WP:CONSENSUS to do so. The same applies to external links per WP:ELBURDEN; even if there were no copyright concerns, the burden would still be upon those wanting to add the link to establish a consensus to do so. The fact that there are copyright concerns means (per WP:ELNEVER and WP:COPYLINK) means (at least in my opinion) that the burden further falls upon those wanting to add the link to not only establish a consensus for its encyclopedic value, but also more importantly that it's not a copyright violation. If the link is questionable for copyright reasons, then it shouldn't be added as long as there's reasonable doubt as to whether it's a copyright violation. This is pretty much how image files are treated (see c:COM:PCP and WP:GOTLETTER) and is pretty much the reason why links to any audio or video dedicated websites are almost never allowed per WP:YOUTUBE unless they are to official channels/sites controlled by the original copyright holder. So, if Hillary Clinton posted a link to her thesis on one of here official websites, then I don't think there would be any problem in linking to it; links to other websites (unconnected to her) hosting the content, however, is not so clear (at least in my opinion). The fact that neither she nore anyone connected with her has apparently yet to taken any legal action against these sites is not a good reason in and of itself to justify adding links to the content on Wikipedia. With respect to your comment
I think we should consider the possibility that the real reason people have been trying to obscure the link to her thesis is to avoid the embarrassment of people learning what she wrote., Wikipedia's role is not really to try and set the record straight and Wikipedia encourages to try and assume in good faith that other editors are WP:HERE (at least until there's evidence found to the contrary). Trying to guess the motivations of those wanting to remove the link is pretty much just as bad as trying to guess the motivations of those wanting to include the link and discussion based upon such things often quickly deteriorate into WP:USTHEM or WP:POVFIGHTER. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:32, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Aardvark231 turns out to have been a sock, so I've struck their edits and deleted the one that has had no reply. I gave them an AGF message yesterday and they told me they had until it became obvious to them you all weren't editing in good faith. I always love it when a sock accuses others of editing in bad faith. Doug Weller talk 11:44, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
This thesis appears to have no per se notability, but is only relevant through its connection to the Clinton's---and only after their entering the White House. Further, the length of the treatment is excessively long and detailed, IMO. I suggest that this page be shortened to the bare minimum and then be merged with Hillary Rodham Clinton. Michael Eriksson ( talk) 13:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. This is an example of WP:Summary style in action; the Hillary Rodham Clinton article already contains a summary of the thesis and its import:
There isn't any space in that article to discuss it any further, and to do so would cause weighting issues as well. This article here is the place to expand upon it. While you may not hear a lot about the thesis now, it was indeed the subject of considerable speculation and controversy at the time, and it merits this article. And Alinsky connections still abound in today's political world, from allegations of influence on Obama to the tactics of that guy who did the ACORN undercover video, giving this article further relevance.
In sum, a merge isn't going to happen, since it's already covered in the main bio article as much as it can be. If you really feel that this subject doesn't deserve this article, you should bring it to AfD, and then everybody will give their views on it. Wasted Time R ( talk) 13:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Your point about merging vs deleting is likely valid; in particular, I did not actually check the main article for any existing discussion. I would in this situation tend towards a deletion, noting that WP entries should be of lasting interest (and doubting that the previous interest in the thesis will be of greater relevance from a historical POV).
Unfortunately, I would need to review the AfD guidelines before I move this issue on---which is not going to happen in the next week or so, due to time constraints. Michael Eriksson ( talk) 17:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I have not gotten around to study the AfD guidelines; in particular, as US politics is not one of my main interest, and my original "rock in the shoe" was undue discussion of a thesis of little to no academic significance. (Note the difference between the controversy and the thesis per se) Instead of an outright deletion (if that would have turned out to be appropriate), I would suggest one of the following:
Obviously, I have no objections should someone else wish to start an AfD.
In a bigger picture, I (as a European) feel that many "USanians" tend to put greater weight and importance on the respective current President and his surroundings than can be justified in historical and international perspective. Hillary has, so far, been a First Lady, a senator of no particular importance (for a senator), and a runner-up for presidential nomination (not even president, just nomination). If that remains her CV, she will be not be considered a highly significant person in a hundred years' time; while Bill will at least be a name in the list of presidents, remembered as much or as little as Grover Cleveland today. (Most Europeans will have no idea who Cleveland was; I suspect that the same is true for very many of the US youngsters of today.) Should she still manage to end up the first female President, then by all means... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Eriksson ( talk • contribs) 20:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
It's now been over a month since the merge tags went up, with no consensus found towards doing so. I'm removing the tags. Renaming or an AfD nomination remain possible. Wasted Time R ( talk) 10:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, this article's topic appears to be notable chiefly for being a somewhat minor 1990's campaign controversy which some wanted to resurrect as an issue in 2008, but which didn't catch fire in that year, either (though it might have if Hillary had captured the Democratic nomination). The main argument for not merging is that the thesis wouldn't receive the same level of detailed treatment if it were just a paragraph in the main Hillary Clinton article... AnonMoos ( talk) 13:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Please fix the citations links. #7 leads to a pornographic website. [16:19, November 1, 2012 24.47.28.212]
I have nominated this article for deletion. It is a very niche article that is not notable enough for the encyclopedia. It can be merged elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.182.11 ( talk) 21:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
(Please note: I have removed the merge template from here, as it is meant to appear on the article itself so that more people can see it. The IP has proposed merging this page into either Hillary Rodham Clinton or Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton. All discussion should be centralized at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Merge proposal) AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 06:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The content of this article does not seem sufficiently notable to warrant a page of its own. The details could be merged quite easily into the two above articles. 86.158.182.11 ( talk) 15:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
(Please continue this discussion at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Merge proposal. AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 06:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC))
This article has been requested for deletion multiple times. The article itself has nothing noteworthy about it - an ex-presidents wife wrote an essay in university (which makes people suspicious of her, if they are of opposing political viewpoints) and this essay has no impact on life, it has not modified any policies, it has not triggered an international debate (or even a US debate or policy change).
This essay is unremarkable and this article is simply being used to point and say 'look this person said something i don't like and its a CONSPIRACY!!!11!'. Which pretty well violates more than one guideline (at least WP:NPOV and WP:Criticism for sure). All references are from journalists who cite a single orginal source, who is simply speculating about timelines. Seriously, there should be no debate. Either merge the information about the controversy or delete this page. I think it should be deleted. So...here we go. AGAIN. 158.169.150.8 ( talk) 14:00, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
She goes by Hillary Clinton. Nobody will look for her as "Hillary Rodham". Why shouldn't this be redirected to " Hillary Clinton senior thesis" instead of the other way around? Zigzig20s ( talk) 18:20, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
when discussing the early lives of Hillary and Bill Clinton, use 'Rodham met Clinton while they were students at Yale', referring to Hillary using her then-current surname". The thesis was written by Hillary Rodham, and that is what it says on its cover page (which is shown in the article). — BarrelProof ( talk) 22:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Hillary Rodham senior thesis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Does this really have lasting notability, re: WP:NOTNEWS/ WP:N? I !voted delete in the AfD back in 2016, and I'm considering a re-nom. Jr8825 • Talk 02:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)