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Shouldn't this page be merged with Second Germanic sound shift? Maartenvdbent 20:46, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Done. -- Doric Loon 12:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since German reunification, a northward movement of the eastern end of the Benrath line has been observed.
Ah. It was in the article on the Benrath line and from there I followed it back to a reference in the German Wiki. I meant to check it further but haven't done so yet. I decided to mention it because it really is interesting, but I did have some reservations. Is your instinct to delete it? -- Doric Loon 20:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've removed that. Clearly the rationale for it has been so far undermined that it has become an entirely doubtful statement. The increased use of standard language in an area does not equate to a shift of dialect boundaries. If anyone thinks this should be kept, they need to find some sources. -- Doric Loon 13:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Angr, the symbol you have put in for the ae-ligature with a lengethening sign appears on my screen as a box. We had this before on another page and you found a way to fix it. Any chance you can do your magic here too? -- Doric Loon 20:46, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yup, that's fixed it. Good stuff! -- Doric Loon 22:56, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
i wonder how general the agreement on the given dates is. the text as written implies that there must necessarily have been a long period between each of the stages, as otherwise sounds would have merged. but this is not necessarily true; multi-level chain shifts can happen over a very short period of time (e.g. the great vowel shift is four levels, < 150 years), and there is no need for one shift to "stop" before the other "starts". there are various modern cases where multi-level shifts occur simultaneously and move from dialect to dialect as a unit. the late date of the fourth shift appears well documented, but it's possible the other three occurred nearly simultaneously but took a long time to spread; this is what is implied in Waterman "A History of the German Language". Benwing 05:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
DAB, do you have more information on that Lombardic reference? For example, which of the four phases you are talking about? Or a reference? I suspect that doesn't belong under chronology, but you can tell us more, perhaps. -- Doric Loon 13:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
We presently have the sound shifts described in the Latin alphabet, which is fine, except that if you're not already familiar with German orthography the "ch" in kch might be confused with other sounds, and even if you are familiar with German, the hh is not particularly clear. I'm tempted to replace them with IPA, possibly with links to the relevant sounds (something like this: þ), but not speaking German of any variety I'm reluctant for fear of stuffing it up. Moreover, IPA might not be the best option here, but things do need to be better explained. What do people think? J. K. 12:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I'm alone here, but wouldn't it be helpful to have OHG and modern cognates in the chart? The formula *t→ss, for example, is problematic for me, as my favorite OHG dictionary (R. Schützeichel, 1995) has zz (z.B. ezzen), a further, later change being required for essen. Or maybe it's the column heading High German Shift Germanic→OHG that is misleading me... Varoon Arya 00:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
It failed on account of poor referencing or no inline citations. Lincher 23:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a linguist, but maybe the example of the third shift is not the best one, since Dutch also shifts for this example. (but probably not on the whole)
80.127.115.114 11:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
comments are welcome at Talk:History of German: should the article's scope extend to Low German, or is the history of German the history of the 2nd sound shift? Also, how should the ToC ideally be arranged? High and Low in separate h2 sections, or Early and High Middle Ages in separate h2 sections? dab (ᛏ) 20:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Would a discussion of the relationship to the Ingvaenoic shift make these matters clearer?
This is not part of the HG consonant shift, because:
I quite accept the case for covering /θ/ > /d/ on this page, since it modifies the effect of the sound shift on the HG consonant system, and it hardly merits its own separate page. But I would say that presenting it as "phase" of the sound shift does not represent the communis opinio. -- Pfold 18:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Not sure about that. Some text books take them together, others don't. The article notes the uncertainty. -- Doric Loon 12:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Ignorance is a strong word for an alternative view. This is a chain shift. To see /θ/ > /d/ as the next stage in the chain after /d/ > /t/ is not illogical. It depends how narrowly you define HGCS. One the one hand, the three "tripple shifts" are very neat by themselves, and there is something to be said for taking them together and everything else separately. On the other hand, since the HGCS is not in any case ONE shift, but rather a series taking place over 5 centuries, there is no real reason why it should not mean ALL the consonant changes in High German in those centuries. And since the geographical distribution of them varies, the fact that this one goes further north is no reason to exclude it: to argue from the modern languages (status of Low German) would be anachronistic. I might mention that a linguist I spoke to recently (who wrote his Habil on Germanic etymology) referred to the the /v/ > /b/ shift in haben and geben as HGCS and explained that he saw no point in treating it separately from the other consonant changes of the period. I've no axe to grind here, and if you want to change the prioritisation in the article, that's fine. (I mean, at present the article takes "phase 4" as the norm and says there are other ways of looking at it - you are welcome to reverse that, though it may be more work than you think!) But don't characterise the other view as wrong. -- Doric Loon 09:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I have just removed this mnemonic from the article:
This was partly because it was out of place (between the table and its footnotes) and partly because it seems rather trivial and clumsy. But if people really are using it as a teaching aid (if there is a source for it?) then it perhaps should indeed go in somewhere. Presumably the ch of ich should also be bold. And the b of habe, which User:Cameron Nedland de-bolded should be bold if the /v/ > /b/ shift is regarded as "in the same context" - which is presumably what the originator of the mnemonic intended. -- Doric Loon 15:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the shift /v/ > /b/ has now been mentioned a couple of times here, should it go in the article as a related change? Calling it HGCS is unusual (my friend mentioned above is untypical, though certainly not uninformed) but since we are unlikely to find any other article in which this shift can more meaningfully be discussed, we could add a brief section on other consonant changes of the period. As far as I can see, this was a fairly limited shift, which applies only in medial position. In German it applies only intervocallically, but in Dutch it seems to apply also when there is a following j. So:
West Germanic | German | Dutch | English |
---|---|---|---|
*gevan | geben | geven | give |
*hevjan | haben | hebben | have |
(This is spelling the reconstructed WG words with v, which is not usual, but I can't find how to enter the b with a stroke through it; at any rate, the philological value is v!)
Another consonant change in High German at this time was the hardening of g to a stop, where in WG (and in Old Saxon and modern Dutch) it was fricative. (In English it was palatalised to y.) All this will need some more thought before it goes in the article, but what do you think? There certainly is no-where else at present where we can write it up. -- Doric Loon 15:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've added an "other changes" section, which you will probably want to expand, though I don't think these want long and detailed discussions; they are peripheral in the article. --
Doric Loon
21:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
The statement that 'Farbe' shows a /v/ > /b/ change is only correct if a /w/ > /v/ change had already taken place. Given the tiny number of examples (I could only think of gerben), I would be surprised if there's evidence to support this. It needs to be sourced or the statement dropped. To be honest, I don't see the point of including this info anyway, as it has nothing to do with the sound shift. --
Pfold
13:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
If you like, but I'd prefer to get the stroke-b symbol. Can anyone help? -- Doric Loon 09:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I've put that in. -- Doric Loon 13:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Standard German has some words which have been shifted further than listed in the table (trock- in trocken, cf. Dutch droog, Old English drȳge, English dry), and some less (bitter, finden, binden, cf. Dutch bitter, vinden, binden, English bitter, (to) find, bind). This probably is due to SG being the result of assimilation and compromise of various dialects with varying degrees of the HGCS. It seems in some sense misleading to say that standard German has or doesn't have each shift. One should perhaps add qualifiers like "usually" "rarely", "generally not", etc. -User: Nightvid
I am a little worried about Cameron Nedland's changes. I must admit I toyed with this idea myself a couple of weeks ago, but decided against it. Of course, it makes the whole thing much neater, but I suspect it is cheating. For one thing, þ is a VOICELESS fricative. It does have a voiced allophone ð in Germanic (used medially), and both shift to d. But the shift v to b does not affect the allophone f (i.e. it only occurs medially). And Germanic "gh" (sorry, I don't thave the right symbols) did not have a corresponding allophonic relationship to "ch". So this whole thing is not nearly as tidy as you would like it to be. I would be happier if you could find a reference for treating these three things together. And you certainly need to build a fuller discussion into the phase 4 part of the "in detail" section. -- Doric Loon 12:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, this discussion has raised a couple of points which do need to be explained, so thank you both for sticking your oars in. I will attempt a fix, not a revert. Tell me if you think it can be done better. -- Doric Loon 18:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
As for the ɣ→g, it says "Dutch has retained the original Germanic /ɣ/, though as Dutch spells this with <g>, the difference is invisible in the written form." It's not clear however what 'the difference' is. Difference between a ɣ and another sound spelled <g>? Which one? Dutch has, I believe g→ɣ, so exactly the opposite. So maybe it's the difference between the orginal ɣ and the ɣ from /g/? If so, I think the whole sentence can be removed. Jalwikip 14:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Should it be noted that Yiddish went through the same shift and the only major difference in the effect now is that Yiddish has merged /pf/ with /f/? Cameron Nedland 20:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The article states that "Kch" is used instead "K" of in "Southernmost Austro-Bavarian and High Alemannic," with the example "Bavarian: Kchind." I think this is incorrect. Kch is used ony in Alemannic, not in Bavarian. In Austria, it used in Vorarlberg, where Alemannic is spoken, and not in the rest of the country, where Bavarian is spoken. This includes the southernmost areas of Styria and Carynthia. 129.27.202.101 12:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
My question is: Which primary sources are the base for the whole consonant shift concept and the quoted stages and geografic distribution? Or was it postulated ex post?
My information is, that the very oldest text in any form of Old German is the Abrogans dictionary, that translates several hundred latin words into either Old-Bavarian (missing original) or Old-Alemannic (3 copies are conserved). As a matter of fact, the Abrogans manuscript already shows the post-consonant-shift situation, eg: friuntscaffi (friendship).
If Old-Bavarian together with Old-Alemannic and Langobardian, are the origin of the consonant shift, and Old-Saxon and Old-Frankonian did not share this language characteristics, why are they put together in one group that is subsumed as "Old-German" and the southern germanic languages are labelled dialects?
This categorization was done by romantic-nationalist German linguists of the 19th century, like the notorius Grimm brothers among others, and was taken over by English language linguists without rechecking the data.
Today English-language linguists tend to peel out Old-Saxon from this unluckily choosen "Old-German" super-group and put it alongside Old-Frisian and Old-English.
Dutch linguists tend to peel out lower Frankonian from the "Old-German" super-group, labelling upper Frankonian together with Bavarian and Alemannic as Old High German.
But what is true and what is unbiased scientifically neutral and non-nationalistic information? Shouldn't the whole 19th century terms and classifications all together be reevaluated?
-- El bes 01:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Some scholars have compared the sound shifts in German with SOMETHING vaguely similar in Celtic... I cannot recall the details, and cannot yet find the link. Does anybody know what I am vaguely remembering? Around the time of the Grimm's Law shift / HGConsonant Shift, there was some marked and vaguely similar shift in Celtic, which some scholars have linked with those (more pronounced) changes in Germanic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 ( talk) 22:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why that shift only affects Upper German. You can find this change also in Central German dialects, e.g. Zeit (zidd, zit, etc.) (engl. time), sitzen/setzen (engl. sitt). It seems to affect almost all CG dialects according to http://www.diwa.info. I have no idea if it does affect all words but certainly this shift also exists in CG dialects. Is there any reason why only UG is mentioned here? -- 89.53.10.212 ( talk) 15:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Here's a quick census of how the sound shift is presented in the handbooks. Obviously this is a very crude summary, but it confirms my earlier gut feeling that most scholars present the SS as having two main parts (voiceless and voiced) and that th>d is not regard as a "phase" of the SS.
How many "phases"?
One section for the voiceless and one for the voiced stops:-
Note: Eggers & Voyles restrict the term Sound Shift to the voicelss stops
Three sections (our phases 1-3):-
th > d
not mentioned at all:-
treated in a separate part of the book (not under the heading "sound shift", often dozens of pages away, sometimes with other fricative changes):-
treated as "linked" with the SS but not part of it:-
covered with voiced stops:-
covered in a separate chapter immediately before or after the voiced stops:-
(but neither refer to it as part of the SS)
Please add more! -- Pfold ( talk) 21:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Braune/Eggers (1987) discusses the changes from WGmc þ in several sections: Hochdeutsche Lautverschiebung (§85), Althochdeutsche Konsonantenschwächungen (§102), Notkers Anlautgesetz (§103) and in great detail under Geräuschlaute (§165-168). Meineke/Schwerdt (2001) discusses the change specifically under the title Spirantenschwächung; it follows immediately after the discussion of the 2nd SS and in the same chapter. I don't know where you would fit that into your list, but I hope the info helps.
In general, I would advise against putting too much into periodization regarding the 2nd SS. I'm thinking specifically of Schwert (2000) who argues (rather well, IMO) that the 2nd SS itself is a faulty concept, and that instead we should be discussing consonantal changes of individual WGmc dialects, in particular Early Old Bavarian, Early Old Alemmanic and Early Old Frankish. In other words, rather than a true SS like the one described by Grimm's Law, we have a group of tangent yet isolatable areal shifts. I realize that it is too early to scrap the 2nd SS altogether; besides, it is a useful - not to mention deeply entrenched - concept. But Schwert's evaluation is is spot on as far as trends in modern Germanic studies go (cf. van Coetsem, Voyles, Davis, etc). Aryaman (☼) 23:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Pfold, this is very useful, and in my opinion confirms that we've got it about right when we say that the term has a narrower and a broader definition. We focus first on the narrower definition, then give details of the things which can also be involved under the broader definition. I'm sure there are lots of details we can improve, but the overall shape of our article is a fair representation of what you have just given as the range of viewpoints. The question is whether some synthesis of this can be added to the article, perhaps in a very short paragraph (since few readers will want to know exactly which scholars have said what), perhaps at the end of the section "general description". (Actually, given that the paragraph already mentions the two views, it would be enough to have a sentence: "scholars who use the broader definition include A, B, C; those who prefer the narrower definition include X, Y, Z.) Will you add this?
Aryaman, your information is also very interesting. Clearly, we don't do original research, and we don't run with fashion, so the overall shape of the article should continue to reflect the established majority view. A section further down on alternative perspectives, however, would be very welcome. Why don't you write this? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 14:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've added three footnotes, one as Aryaman suggests, and two noting the results of Pfold's Census. Probably that will do for now, though in time we might give greater prominence to these things. But let's wait and see how future discussions emerge. Meanwhile, however, Pfold has a job to do: all the scholars whose names I have copied from your census into the footnotes need to be properly included in the bibliography. Can you do that please? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 22:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see the old map again. I mean the map where the Low Saxon, Low Franconian and other dialects outside Germany were not edited out. The dialect continuum does not stop at borders. However, File:Benrath-Speyer.PNG got deleted. -- Zz ( talk) 22:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
In case anyone notices that I deleted some of the examples and changed one, the reason is because some of the translations were wrong and the correct translation wouldn't be an example.-- 75.17.229.64 ( talk) 01:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but I will have to revert those changes. Those were NOT translations, they were cognates. German Zeit means time, but it is cognate with tide. Zeit:tide is therefore a pair which illustrates the z:t parallel. (Zeit:time would NOT illustrate it, because they are unrelated words.) Likewise cup and Kopf illustrate p:pf. It is entirely irrelevant for the sound shifts that subsequent semantic shifts have caused the pairs to have divergent meanings. Kopf has enjoyed a fascinating semantic development: first, it meant cup, then it was used jokingly for the top of a bald head (I've heard English dome used that way too), then it became the standard word for head. French tête has a similarly slangy etymology, from a Latin word meaning roofing tile. So sure, you cannot now translate cup with Kopf (as you could in the 13th century). But that is not what THIS article is about.-- Doric Loon ( talk) 09:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the article already had a note above the table, and a footnote at the bottom, which carefully explain all this.-- Doric Loon ( talk) 09:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Careful with substrat theory, please, as it's quite controversial - though I rather like it. I don't think it is helpful to want to give the entire history of a word; the point here is purely that a form kop existed, changed to kopf, and exists in the parallel language as cup, thus displaying p:pf. The only reason for giving more info at all is to stop people with a smattering of German and no understanding of the topic changing "cup" to "cap" (as we once had) or deleting it because they don't know what to do with it. This sort of thing has happend four or five times now and is becoming wearing. What I have now done is to insert a link from Kopf and Zeit to Wiktionary. If you want to give more detail on the words themselves, put it there. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 13:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Quite right: I should have asterisked *kop. But it is not in the article text anyway. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 13:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This article shows an apparent lack of in-line citations. While I'd fancy that most info provided here is easy to retrieve from the literature given, the matter is somewhat awkward. One particular point is also that Rheinischer Fächer which is given as a reference is insufficiently referenced itself. I'm unsure whether a Good article reassessment might be appropriate here, but if someone could address this issue (which should be easy enough), it would certainly improve the article. G Purevdorj ( talk) 09:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with initiating this GA review because I feel (though I am no expert on anything Indo-Germanic and did not verify the infos) that it meets GA requirements. However, there are two exceptions: The guidelines (2a) and (2b) are not met.
There is probably little controversial information in this article, but the violation of (2a) is pretty significant. I hope that someone familiar with this stuff might be ready to improve this, else this article must be demoted.
In the course of reading this article, I also came upon a few other points that, however, are not crucial to this GA review:
G Purevdorj ( talk) 23:19, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
As long as I don’t verify my claim about /pf/, my perception isn’t of any relevance. Being from Hannover, I perceive myself as saying /kamf/, not /kampf/, /ferd/ instead of /pfert/ etc. But I’ll try to check this during the next few days from my fellow speakers. Be this as it may, back to in-line citations and references:
The problem that any of these infos could be retrieved from almost any standard source is problematic for me as well, but as far as I understand the GA requirements, yes, the article would probably better confirm to GA requirements if at least every major paragraph had a reference. So I do think that referencing is an issue for this article from this more general and the more specific point of view mentioned first. G Purevdorj ( talk) 20:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
A bit of time has passed, but the source issues have not been addressed so far. Just as a reminder. G Purevdorj ( talk) 13:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
What is the correct procedure when somebody breeches the revert rules? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 21:49, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
The so-called Low German words cited as examples in Phases 2, 3, and 4 are all examples from the Plautdietsch dialect, also known as "Mennonite Low German", rather than from the mainstream North Low Saxon of the lower Weser and Elbe districts and Holstein. It is rather like using Robbie Burns's Lowlands Scottish as the source of English word examples, rather than using standard English words - or quoting Schwabisch (or even "Pennsylvanian Dutch") words as examples of "High German", instead of using modern Standard German words. It just strikes me as a bizarre choice - why Plautdietsch (which is not actually common in northern Germany)? In any event, Plautdietsch words have undergone their own vowel and consonant changes which muddy the waters: e.g. k > kj, and r > a (between a vowel and consonant), and long a > o, so that Low German Wark > Plautdietsch Woakj. But the Low German Wark is a better comparison with Dutch werk and High Alemannic Werch, than the Plautdietsch Woakj which has obscured the Low German vowels and consonants with later changes.
Here are standard Low German equivalents* to your Plautdietsch ones:
Phase 2: Appel (vs Aupel), scharp (vs schoap), Katt (vs Kaut), tamm (vs tom), Wark (vs Woakj), Sparling (vs Spoalinkj), Nacht (the same), tru (vs trü).
Phase 3: doon (vs doonen), Moder/Mudder (vs Mutta), root (the same), bidden (vs beeden) NB: Low German beden corresponds to High German beten, not to bitten.
Phase 4: dat (vs daut), denken (vs dinken), döstig/dörstig (vs darstijch), Broder (vs Brooda), du (vs dü).
/v/->/b/: Leef/Leev (vs Leew), half (vs haulf), Lebber/Lewer (vs Läwa), sülv-/sülb- (vs self). NB: see Low German Salf/Salv for HG Salbe. Low German tends to have f,v, or b for HG b, depending on word position. /b/ is usually found before /n/ e.g. sülben/sülm vs sülvst (cf HG selben, selbst), and sometimes before /r/ e.g. över/öber vs HG über. /f/ occurs when the consonant becomes final through loss of unaccented -e e.g. MLG salve > NLG Salf/Salv.
all examples of Low German come from the Plattdeutsch-Hochdeutsches Wörterbuch, by Wolfgang Lindow, Institut für Niederdeutsche Sprache (Bremen, 1998), which is a much more mainstream source than Plautdietsch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.199.51 ( talk • contribs) 09:03, 8 July 2010
Rhineland fan: The connection was refused when attempting to contact s2.ned.univie.ac.at.
(The link points to www.univie.ac.at however.) Site badly constructed? Page redirected but requiring authentication? I can only make conjectures. — Tonymec ( talk) 12:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
The assertion here that the German word "Tag" is pronounced in the same way as the English word "tack" is incorrect. In English "tack" would have a short vowel sound followed by an unmistakable ejective 'k', whereas the German word "Tag" has a long vowel, followed by a far softer and lengthier 'gh' sound. Examinator ( talk) 10:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Both of these words have -tt- in other Germanic languages (as well as Latin), and yet one of them shifted and the other didn't. Why is that? CodeCat ( talk) 19:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
The article currently says 'occurred in most of West Germanic', but how much of that is really true? It occurred in Old English and in High German, but it did not occur in Dutch or Frisian. I don't know about Low German. So this should probably be rephrased. CodeCat ( talk) 01:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Since standard German is, and always was from the very beginning of standarization, a hybrid of elements from many High and Low German dialects, can it make sense to call a Low German form in standard German a "loan"? Surely this is of a fundamentally different nature from, say, a loan word from Latin? To treat it as the same seem to me to fail to understand for example that "Haven" was never transferred sideways from LG to HG, but rather was carried forward from LG into universal German. I know there is a political POV which wants to accentuate the degree to which Low German is a separate language (whatever that means) rather than a German dialect (the distinction seems unscientific) and recent changes in this article seem to me to have a whiff of that - though I am not suggesting other editors consciously have that agenda. They may just be confused by the two different meanings of Hochdeutsch. At any rate, none of my text books call LG forms "loans", and I would be looking for citations from linguists if this is to be kept. Any thoughts? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 14:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Most of the article goes back a very long time, however the map only shows current situation. German was spoken along the Baltic coast to north of Memel (Klaipeda in Lithuania today) , entire Silesia (upper and lower) and there were islands of German speaking territories even 1000's of km into Russia. Boeing720 ( talk) 23:24, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
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Oddly, the opening sentence of this article gives no indication that in fact the most common term in English is not consonant shift but sound shift.
In the standard works on my shelves or my hard disk I can find only four authors who use the term consonant shift - Waterman, Wells, Ringe, and Prokosch. Against that are ten for sound shift - Wright, Keller, Nielsen, Russ, Young & Gloning, Barbour & Stevenson, Voyles, Salmons, and König & Auwera. If we cut out works over 50 years old, it becomes 2 against 9.
At the very least, the opening sentence needs rewriting, but surely, unless people can find a lot more handbooks that use consonant shift, this article should be moved. -- Pfold ( talk) 17:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Hello, there is an article Frisian languages as well as separate articles on them. I found the following in the article: Most dialects of Norwegian and Swedish show a shift that is much like the one in Frisian, with /ð/ > /d/ and /θ/ > /t/. modern Frisian varieties have /t/ word-initially in most words, and /d/ medially. The shift took several centuries to spread north, appearing in Dutch only during the 12th century, and in Frisian and Low German not for another century or two after that. What should be done? Sarcelles ( talk) 18:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Doric Loon: The table looks much better know, great! I have noticed that the last three lines are a bit off-topic, as they are actually not part of the HG consonant shift (or rather, they are part of stage 3 whenever it applies). E.g., the /b/ > /p/-line has Old Bavarian Perg and pist, but actually there's also medial kepan. So all of this could be merged into stage 3 part. The fact that Central German dialects have retained /ɣ/ and partially /β/ as fricatives is not really essential for this overview table. What do you think? – Austronesier ( talk) 11:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
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casual readers will not understand why "gut" (which is pronounced with a "t", and which retains the "t" in declensed forms (gute)) is listed as an example of a shift to "d". As I understand it, after the shift to d, another shift to "t" occurs, but this is not obvious in the table. Or I might be completely mistaken. 77.180.97.147 ( talk) 10:09, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
It has been mentioned before, that these should be discussed here. It might be too much detail to actually describe the situation in these languages, but at least the table should be extended to reflect both Low German and Yiddish (~ Eastern Central German) sound developments. Otherwise, representing the sound shift as a kind of transition between Standard German over Luxemburgian to Dutch feels geographically biased. If I have some time, I see to it in the next months. Chiarcos ( talk) 12:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Our stub article Boppard line has been proposed for deletion, apparently by a user who is not a linguist and judges notability by google hits. But fair dibs, the article's been there for 20 years and is still entirely unsourced. If anyone feels strongly about this, you have seven days to add reliable sources. Doric Loon ( talk) 08:03, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
From the article:
References
The source is cited in an improper way:
So adjusted it's this:
However, as mentioned above, it lacks proper page and doesn't seem to support the statement anyway. --14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:de:3717:711c:d189:444d:d248:6158 ( talk • contribs)
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Shouldn't this page be merged with Second Germanic sound shift? Maartenvdbent 20:46, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Done. -- Doric Loon 12:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since German reunification, a northward movement of the eastern end of the Benrath line has been observed.
Ah. It was in the article on the Benrath line and from there I followed it back to a reference in the German Wiki. I meant to check it further but haven't done so yet. I decided to mention it because it really is interesting, but I did have some reservations. Is your instinct to delete it? -- Doric Loon 20:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've removed that. Clearly the rationale for it has been so far undermined that it has become an entirely doubtful statement. The increased use of standard language in an area does not equate to a shift of dialect boundaries. If anyone thinks this should be kept, they need to find some sources. -- Doric Loon 13:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Angr, the symbol you have put in for the ae-ligature with a lengethening sign appears on my screen as a box. We had this before on another page and you found a way to fix it. Any chance you can do your magic here too? -- Doric Loon 20:46, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yup, that's fixed it. Good stuff! -- Doric Loon 22:56, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
i wonder how general the agreement on the given dates is. the text as written implies that there must necessarily have been a long period between each of the stages, as otherwise sounds would have merged. but this is not necessarily true; multi-level chain shifts can happen over a very short period of time (e.g. the great vowel shift is four levels, < 150 years), and there is no need for one shift to "stop" before the other "starts". there are various modern cases where multi-level shifts occur simultaneously and move from dialect to dialect as a unit. the late date of the fourth shift appears well documented, but it's possible the other three occurred nearly simultaneously but took a long time to spread; this is what is implied in Waterman "A History of the German Language". Benwing 05:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
DAB, do you have more information on that Lombardic reference? For example, which of the four phases you are talking about? Or a reference? I suspect that doesn't belong under chronology, but you can tell us more, perhaps. -- Doric Loon 13:00, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
We presently have the sound shifts described in the Latin alphabet, which is fine, except that if you're not already familiar with German orthography the "ch" in kch might be confused with other sounds, and even if you are familiar with German, the hh is not particularly clear. I'm tempted to replace them with IPA, possibly with links to the relevant sounds (something like this: þ), but not speaking German of any variety I'm reluctant for fear of stuffing it up. Moreover, IPA might not be the best option here, but things do need to be better explained. What do people think? J. K. 12:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I'm alone here, but wouldn't it be helpful to have OHG and modern cognates in the chart? The formula *t→ss, for example, is problematic for me, as my favorite OHG dictionary (R. Schützeichel, 1995) has zz (z.B. ezzen), a further, later change being required for essen. Or maybe it's the column heading High German Shift Germanic→OHG that is misleading me... Varoon Arya 00:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
It failed on account of poor referencing or no inline citations. Lincher 23:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a linguist, but maybe the example of the third shift is not the best one, since Dutch also shifts for this example. (but probably not on the whole)
80.127.115.114 11:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
comments are welcome at Talk:History of German: should the article's scope extend to Low German, or is the history of German the history of the 2nd sound shift? Also, how should the ToC ideally be arranged? High and Low in separate h2 sections, or Early and High Middle Ages in separate h2 sections? dab (ᛏ) 20:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Would a discussion of the relationship to the Ingvaenoic shift make these matters clearer?
This is not part of the HG consonant shift, because:
I quite accept the case for covering /θ/ > /d/ on this page, since it modifies the effect of the sound shift on the HG consonant system, and it hardly merits its own separate page. But I would say that presenting it as "phase" of the sound shift does not represent the communis opinio. -- Pfold 18:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Not sure about that. Some text books take them together, others don't. The article notes the uncertainty. -- Doric Loon 12:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Ignorance is a strong word for an alternative view. This is a chain shift. To see /θ/ > /d/ as the next stage in the chain after /d/ > /t/ is not illogical. It depends how narrowly you define HGCS. One the one hand, the three "tripple shifts" are very neat by themselves, and there is something to be said for taking them together and everything else separately. On the other hand, since the HGCS is not in any case ONE shift, but rather a series taking place over 5 centuries, there is no real reason why it should not mean ALL the consonant changes in High German in those centuries. And since the geographical distribution of them varies, the fact that this one goes further north is no reason to exclude it: to argue from the modern languages (status of Low German) would be anachronistic. I might mention that a linguist I spoke to recently (who wrote his Habil on Germanic etymology) referred to the the /v/ > /b/ shift in haben and geben as HGCS and explained that he saw no point in treating it separately from the other consonant changes of the period. I've no axe to grind here, and if you want to change the prioritisation in the article, that's fine. (I mean, at present the article takes "phase 4" as the norm and says there are other ways of looking at it - you are welcome to reverse that, though it may be more work than you think!) But don't characterise the other view as wrong. -- Doric Loon 09:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I have just removed this mnemonic from the article:
This was partly because it was out of place (between the table and its footnotes) and partly because it seems rather trivial and clumsy. But if people really are using it as a teaching aid (if there is a source for it?) then it perhaps should indeed go in somewhere. Presumably the ch of ich should also be bold. And the b of habe, which User:Cameron Nedland de-bolded should be bold if the /v/ > /b/ shift is regarded as "in the same context" - which is presumably what the originator of the mnemonic intended. -- Doric Loon 15:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the shift /v/ > /b/ has now been mentioned a couple of times here, should it go in the article as a related change? Calling it HGCS is unusual (my friend mentioned above is untypical, though certainly not uninformed) but since we are unlikely to find any other article in which this shift can more meaningfully be discussed, we could add a brief section on other consonant changes of the period. As far as I can see, this was a fairly limited shift, which applies only in medial position. In German it applies only intervocallically, but in Dutch it seems to apply also when there is a following j. So:
West Germanic | German | Dutch | English |
---|---|---|---|
*gevan | geben | geven | give |
*hevjan | haben | hebben | have |
(This is spelling the reconstructed WG words with v, which is not usual, but I can't find how to enter the b with a stroke through it; at any rate, the philological value is v!)
Another consonant change in High German at this time was the hardening of g to a stop, where in WG (and in Old Saxon and modern Dutch) it was fricative. (In English it was palatalised to y.) All this will need some more thought before it goes in the article, but what do you think? There certainly is no-where else at present where we can write it up. -- Doric Loon 15:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've added an "other changes" section, which you will probably want to expand, though I don't think these want long and detailed discussions; they are peripheral in the article. --
Doric Loon
21:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
The statement that 'Farbe' shows a /v/ > /b/ change is only correct if a /w/ > /v/ change had already taken place. Given the tiny number of examples (I could only think of gerben), I would be surprised if there's evidence to support this. It needs to be sourced or the statement dropped. To be honest, I don't see the point of including this info anyway, as it has nothing to do with the sound shift. --
Pfold
13:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
If you like, but I'd prefer to get the stroke-b symbol. Can anyone help? -- Doric Loon 09:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I've put that in. -- Doric Loon 13:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Standard German has some words which have been shifted further than listed in the table (trock- in trocken, cf. Dutch droog, Old English drȳge, English dry), and some less (bitter, finden, binden, cf. Dutch bitter, vinden, binden, English bitter, (to) find, bind). This probably is due to SG being the result of assimilation and compromise of various dialects with varying degrees of the HGCS. It seems in some sense misleading to say that standard German has or doesn't have each shift. One should perhaps add qualifiers like "usually" "rarely", "generally not", etc. -User: Nightvid
I am a little worried about Cameron Nedland's changes. I must admit I toyed with this idea myself a couple of weeks ago, but decided against it. Of course, it makes the whole thing much neater, but I suspect it is cheating. For one thing, þ is a VOICELESS fricative. It does have a voiced allophone ð in Germanic (used medially), and both shift to d. But the shift v to b does not affect the allophone f (i.e. it only occurs medially). And Germanic "gh" (sorry, I don't thave the right symbols) did not have a corresponding allophonic relationship to "ch". So this whole thing is not nearly as tidy as you would like it to be. I would be happier if you could find a reference for treating these three things together. And you certainly need to build a fuller discussion into the phase 4 part of the "in detail" section. -- Doric Loon 12:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, this discussion has raised a couple of points which do need to be explained, so thank you both for sticking your oars in. I will attempt a fix, not a revert. Tell me if you think it can be done better. -- Doric Loon 18:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
As for the ɣ→g, it says "Dutch has retained the original Germanic /ɣ/, though as Dutch spells this with <g>, the difference is invisible in the written form." It's not clear however what 'the difference' is. Difference between a ɣ and another sound spelled <g>? Which one? Dutch has, I believe g→ɣ, so exactly the opposite. So maybe it's the difference between the orginal ɣ and the ɣ from /g/? If so, I think the whole sentence can be removed. Jalwikip 14:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Should it be noted that Yiddish went through the same shift and the only major difference in the effect now is that Yiddish has merged /pf/ with /f/? Cameron Nedland 20:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The article states that "Kch" is used instead "K" of in "Southernmost Austro-Bavarian and High Alemannic," with the example "Bavarian: Kchind." I think this is incorrect. Kch is used ony in Alemannic, not in Bavarian. In Austria, it used in Vorarlberg, where Alemannic is spoken, and not in the rest of the country, where Bavarian is spoken. This includes the southernmost areas of Styria and Carynthia. 129.27.202.101 12:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
My question is: Which primary sources are the base for the whole consonant shift concept and the quoted stages and geografic distribution? Or was it postulated ex post?
My information is, that the very oldest text in any form of Old German is the Abrogans dictionary, that translates several hundred latin words into either Old-Bavarian (missing original) or Old-Alemannic (3 copies are conserved). As a matter of fact, the Abrogans manuscript already shows the post-consonant-shift situation, eg: friuntscaffi (friendship).
If Old-Bavarian together with Old-Alemannic and Langobardian, are the origin of the consonant shift, and Old-Saxon and Old-Frankonian did not share this language characteristics, why are they put together in one group that is subsumed as "Old-German" and the southern germanic languages are labelled dialects?
This categorization was done by romantic-nationalist German linguists of the 19th century, like the notorius Grimm brothers among others, and was taken over by English language linguists without rechecking the data.
Today English-language linguists tend to peel out Old-Saxon from this unluckily choosen "Old-German" super-group and put it alongside Old-Frisian and Old-English.
Dutch linguists tend to peel out lower Frankonian from the "Old-German" super-group, labelling upper Frankonian together with Bavarian and Alemannic as Old High German.
But what is true and what is unbiased scientifically neutral and non-nationalistic information? Shouldn't the whole 19th century terms and classifications all together be reevaluated?
-- El bes 01:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Some scholars have compared the sound shifts in German with SOMETHING vaguely similar in Celtic... I cannot recall the details, and cannot yet find the link. Does anybody know what I am vaguely remembering? Around the time of the Grimm's Law shift / HGConsonant Shift, there was some marked and vaguely similar shift in Celtic, which some scholars have linked with those (more pronounced) changes in Germanic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 ( talk) 22:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why that shift only affects Upper German. You can find this change also in Central German dialects, e.g. Zeit (zidd, zit, etc.) (engl. time), sitzen/setzen (engl. sitt). It seems to affect almost all CG dialects according to http://www.diwa.info. I have no idea if it does affect all words but certainly this shift also exists in CG dialects. Is there any reason why only UG is mentioned here? -- 89.53.10.212 ( talk) 15:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Here's a quick census of how the sound shift is presented in the handbooks. Obviously this is a very crude summary, but it confirms my earlier gut feeling that most scholars present the SS as having two main parts (voiceless and voiced) and that th>d is not regard as a "phase" of the SS.
How many "phases"?
One section for the voiceless and one for the voiced stops:-
Note: Eggers & Voyles restrict the term Sound Shift to the voicelss stops
Three sections (our phases 1-3):-
th > d
not mentioned at all:-
treated in a separate part of the book (not under the heading "sound shift", often dozens of pages away, sometimes with other fricative changes):-
treated as "linked" with the SS but not part of it:-
covered with voiced stops:-
covered in a separate chapter immediately before or after the voiced stops:-
(but neither refer to it as part of the SS)
Please add more! -- Pfold ( talk) 21:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Braune/Eggers (1987) discusses the changes from WGmc þ in several sections: Hochdeutsche Lautverschiebung (§85), Althochdeutsche Konsonantenschwächungen (§102), Notkers Anlautgesetz (§103) and in great detail under Geräuschlaute (§165-168). Meineke/Schwerdt (2001) discusses the change specifically under the title Spirantenschwächung; it follows immediately after the discussion of the 2nd SS and in the same chapter. I don't know where you would fit that into your list, but I hope the info helps.
In general, I would advise against putting too much into periodization regarding the 2nd SS. I'm thinking specifically of Schwert (2000) who argues (rather well, IMO) that the 2nd SS itself is a faulty concept, and that instead we should be discussing consonantal changes of individual WGmc dialects, in particular Early Old Bavarian, Early Old Alemmanic and Early Old Frankish. In other words, rather than a true SS like the one described by Grimm's Law, we have a group of tangent yet isolatable areal shifts. I realize that it is too early to scrap the 2nd SS altogether; besides, it is a useful - not to mention deeply entrenched - concept. But Schwert's evaluation is is spot on as far as trends in modern Germanic studies go (cf. van Coetsem, Voyles, Davis, etc). Aryaman (☼) 23:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Pfold, this is very useful, and in my opinion confirms that we've got it about right when we say that the term has a narrower and a broader definition. We focus first on the narrower definition, then give details of the things which can also be involved under the broader definition. I'm sure there are lots of details we can improve, but the overall shape of our article is a fair representation of what you have just given as the range of viewpoints. The question is whether some synthesis of this can be added to the article, perhaps in a very short paragraph (since few readers will want to know exactly which scholars have said what), perhaps at the end of the section "general description". (Actually, given that the paragraph already mentions the two views, it would be enough to have a sentence: "scholars who use the broader definition include A, B, C; those who prefer the narrower definition include X, Y, Z.) Will you add this?
Aryaman, your information is also very interesting. Clearly, we don't do original research, and we don't run with fashion, so the overall shape of the article should continue to reflect the established majority view. A section further down on alternative perspectives, however, would be very welcome. Why don't you write this? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 14:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've added three footnotes, one as Aryaman suggests, and two noting the results of Pfold's Census. Probably that will do for now, though in time we might give greater prominence to these things. But let's wait and see how future discussions emerge. Meanwhile, however, Pfold has a job to do: all the scholars whose names I have copied from your census into the footnotes need to be properly included in the bibliography. Can you do that please? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 22:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see the old map again. I mean the map where the Low Saxon, Low Franconian and other dialects outside Germany were not edited out. The dialect continuum does not stop at borders. However, File:Benrath-Speyer.PNG got deleted. -- Zz ( talk) 22:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
In case anyone notices that I deleted some of the examples and changed one, the reason is because some of the translations were wrong and the correct translation wouldn't be an example.-- 75.17.229.64 ( talk) 01:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but I will have to revert those changes. Those were NOT translations, they were cognates. German Zeit means time, but it is cognate with tide. Zeit:tide is therefore a pair which illustrates the z:t parallel. (Zeit:time would NOT illustrate it, because they are unrelated words.) Likewise cup and Kopf illustrate p:pf. It is entirely irrelevant for the sound shifts that subsequent semantic shifts have caused the pairs to have divergent meanings. Kopf has enjoyed a fascinating semantic development: first, it meant cup, then it was used jokingly for the top of a bald head (I've heard English dome used that way too), then it became the standard word for head. French tête has a similarly slangy etymology, from a Latin word meaning roofing tile. So sure, you cannot now translate cup with Kopf (as you could in the 13th century). But that is not what THIS article is about.-- Doric Loon ( talk) 09:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the article already had a note above the table, and a footnote at the bottom, which carefully explain all this.-- Doric Loon ( talk) 09:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Careful with substrat theory, please, as it's quite controversial - though I rather like it. I don't think it is helpful to want to give the entire history of a word; the point here is purely that a form kop existed, changed to kopf, and exists in the parallel language as cup, thus displaying p:pf. The only reason for giving more info at all is to stop people with a smattering of German and no understanding of the topic changing "cup" to "cap" (as we once had) or deleting it because they don't know what to do with it. This sort of thing has happend four or five times now and is becoming wearing. What I have now done is to insert a link from Kopf and Zeit to Wiktionary. If you want to give more detail on the words themselves, put it there. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 13:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Quite right: I should have asterisked *kop. But it is not in the article text anyway. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 13:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This article shows an apparent lack of in-line citations. While I'd fancy that most info provided here is easy to retrieve from the literature given, the matter is somewhat awkward. One particular point is also that Rheinischer Fächer which is given as a reference is insufficiently referenced itself. I'm unsure whether a Good article reassessment might be appropriate here, but if someone could address this issue (which should be easy enough), it would certainly improve the article. G Purevdorj ( talk) 09:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with initiating this GA review because I feel (though I am no expert on anything Indo-Germanic and did not verify the infos) that it meets GA requirements. However, there are two exceptions: The guidelines (2a) and (2b) are not met.
There is probably little controversial information in this article, but the violation of (2a) is pretty significant. I hope that someone familiar with this stuff might be ready to improve this, else this article must be demoted.
In the course of reading this article, I also came upon a few other points that, however, are not crucial to this GA review:
G Purevdorj ( talk) 23:19, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
As long as I don’t verify my claim about /pf/, my perception isn’t of any relevance. Being from Hannover, I perceive myself as saying /kamf/, not /kampf/, /ferd/ instead of /pfert/ etc. But I’ll try to check this during the next few days from my fellow speakers. Be this as it may, back to in-line citations and references:
The problem that any of these infos could be retrieved from almost any standard source is problematic for me as well, but as far as I understand the GA requirements, yes, the article would probably better confirm to GA requirements if at least every major paragraph had a reference. So I do think that referencing is an issue for this article from this more general and the more specific point of view mentioned first. G Purevdorj ( talk) 20:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
A bit of time has passed, but the source issues have not been addressed so far. Just as a reminder. G Purevdorj ( talk) 13:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
What is the correct procedure when somebody breeches the revert rules? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 21:49, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
The so-called Low German words cited as examples in Phases 2, 3, and 4 are all examples from the Plautdietsch dialect, also known as "Mennonite Low German", rather than from the mainstream North Low Saxon of the lower Weser and Elbe districts and Holstein. It is rather like using Robbie Burns's Lowlands Scottish as the source of English word examples, rather than using standard English words - or quoting Schwabisch (or even "Pennsylvanian Dutch") words as examples of "High German", instead of using modern Standard German words. It just strikes me as a bizarre choice - why Plautdietsch (which is not actually common in northern Germany)? In any event, Plautdietsch words have undergone their own vowel and consonant changes which muddy the waters: e.g. k > kj, and r > a (between a vowel and consonant), and long a > o, so that Low German Wark > Plautdietsch Woakj. But the Low German Wark is a better comparison with Dutch werk and High Alemannic Werch, than the Plautdietsch Woakj which has obscured the Low German vowels and consonants with later changes.
Here are standard Low German equivalents* to your Plautdietsch ones:
Phase 2: Appel (vs Aupel), scharp (vs schoap), Katt (vs Kaut), tamm (vs tom), Wark (vs Woakj), Sparling (vs Spoalinkj), Nacht (the same), tru (vs trü).
Phase 3: doon (vs doonen), Moder/Mudder (vs Mutta), root (the same), bidden (vs beeden) NB: Low German beden corresponds to High German beten, not to bitten.
Phase 4: dat (vs daut), denken (vs dinken), döstig/dörstig (vs darstijch), Broder (vs Brooda), du (vs dü).
/v/->/b/: Leef/Leev (vs Leew), half (vs haulf), Lebber/Lewer (vs Läwa), sülv-/sülb- (vs self). NB: see Low German Salf/Salv for HG Salbe. Low German tends to have f,v, or b for HG b, depending on word position. /b/ is usually found before /n/ e.g. sülben/sülm vs sülvst (cf HG selben, selbst), and sometimes before /r/ e.g. över/öber vs HG über. /f/ occurs when the consonant becomes final through loss of unaccented -e e.g. MLG salve > NLG Salf/Salv.
all examples of Low German come from the Plattdeutsch-Hochdeutsches Wörterbuch, by Wolfgang Lindow, Institut für Niederdeutsche Sprache (Bremen, 1998), which is a much more mainstream source than Plautdietsch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.199.51 ( talk • contribs) 09:03, 8 July 2010
Rhineland fan: The connection was refused when attempting to contact s2.ned.univie.ac.at.
(The link points to www.univie.ac.at however.) Site badly constructed? Page redirected but requiring authentication? I can only make conjectures. — Tonymec ( talk) 12:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
The assertion here that the German word "Tag" is pronounced in the same way as the English word "tack" is incorrect. In English "tack" would have a short vowel sound followed by an unmistakable ejective 'k', whereas the German word "Tag" has a long vowel, followed by a far softer and lengthier 'gh' sound. Examinator ( talk) 10:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Both of these words have -tt- in other Germanic languages (as well as Latin), and yet one of them shifted and the other didn't. Why is that? CodeCat ( talk) 19:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
The article currently says 'occurred in most of West Germanic', but how much of that is really true? It occurred in Old English and in High German, but it did not occur in Dutch or Frisian. I don't know about Low German. So this should probably be rephrased. CodeCat ( talk) 01:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Since standard German is, and always was from the very beginning of standarization, a hybrid of elements from many High and Low German dialects, can it make sense to call a Low German form in standard German a "loan"? Surely this is of a fundamentally different nature from, say, a loan word from Latin? To treat it as the same seem to me to fail to understand for example that "Haven" was never transferred sideways from LG to HG, but rather was carried forward from LG into universal German. I know there is a political POV which wants to accentuate the degree to which Low German is a separate language (whatever that means) rather than a German dialect (the distinction seems unscientific) and recent changes in this article seem to me to have a whiff of that - though I am not suggesting other editors consciously have that agenda. They may just be confused by the two different meanings of Hochdeutsch. At any rate, none of my text books call LG forms "loans", and I would be looking for citations from linguists if this is to be kept. Any thoughts? -- Doric Loon ( talk) 14:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Most of the article goes back a very long time, however the map only shows current situation. German was spoken along the Baltic coast to north of Memel (Klaipeda in Lithuania today) , entire Silesia (upper and lower) and there were islands of German speaking territories even 1000's of km into Russia. Boeing720 ( talk) 23:24, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
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Oddly, the opening sentence of this article gives no indication that in fact the most common term in English is not consonant shift but sound shift.
In the standard works on my shelves or my hard disk I can find only four authors who use the term consonant shift - Waterman, Wells, Ringe, and Prokosch. Against that are ten for sound shift - Wright, Keller, Nielsen, Russ, Young & Gloning, Barbour & Stevenson, Voyles, Salmons, and König & Auwera. If we cut out works over 50 years old, it becomes 2 against 9.
At the very least, the opening sentence needs rewriting, but surely, unless people can find a lot more handbooks that use consonant shift, this article should be moved. -- Pfold ( talk) 17:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Hello, there is an article Frisian languages as well as separate articles on them. I found the following in the article: Most dialects of Norwegian and Swedish show a shift that is much like the one in Frisian, with /ð/ > /d/ and /θ/ > /t/. modern Frisian varieties have /t/ word-initially in most words, and /d/ medially. The shift took several centuries to spread north, appearing in Dutch only during the 12th century, and in Frisian and Low German not for another century or two after that. What should be done? Sarcelles ( talk) 18:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Doric Loon: The table looks much better know, great! I have noticed that the last three lines are a bit off-topic, as they are actually not part of the HG consonant shift (or rather, they are part of stage 3 whenever it applies). E.g., the /b/ > /p/-line has Old Bavarian Perg and pist, but actually there's also medial kepan. So all of this could be merged into stage 3 part. The fact that Central German dialects have retained /ɣ/ and partially /β/ as fricatives is not really essential for this overview table. What do you think? – Austronesier ( talk) 11:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
casual readers will not understand why "gut" (which is pronounced with a "t", and which retains the "t" in declensed forms (gute)) is listed as an example of a shift to "d". As I understand it, after the shift to d, another shift to "t" occurs, but this is not obvious in the table. Or I might be completely mistaken. 77.180.97.147 ( talk) 10:09, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
It has been mentioned before, that these should be discussed here. It might be too much detail to actually describe the situation in these languages, but at least the table should be extended to reflect both Low German and Yiddish (~ Eastern Central German) sound developments. Otherwise, representing the sound shift as a kind of transition between Standard German over Luxemburgian to Dutch feels geographically biased. If I have some time, I see to it in the next months. Chiarcos ( talk) 12:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Our stub article Boppard line has been proposed for deletion, apparently by a user who is not a linguist and judges notability by google hits. But fair dibs, the article's been there for 20 years and is still entirely unsourced. If anyone feels strongly about this, you have seven days to add reliable sources. Doric Loon ( talk) 08:03, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
From the article:
References
The source is cited in an improper way:
So adjusted it's this:
However, as mentioned above, it lacks proper page and doesn't seem to support the statement anyway. --14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:de:3717:711c:d189:444d:d248:6158 ( talk • contribs)