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I admit that this:
sounds a bit silly at first glance, but at bottom this is one common "civil rights" argument against high school graduation exams. There are actually people who think it's better to give a high school diploma to a kid who is functionally illiterate because the "stupid piece of paper" is necessary to get many jobs these days. Some of these people oppose high-stakes testing specifically because kids who cannot read will actually be identified as not being able to read. I'm open to a better example, but the general idea that a test can identify people with inadequate knowledge is important. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
This "article" is nothing but a dictionary definition of the compound "high-stakes" and "exam". "High stakes testing" is not a topic. -- Gronky ( talk) 12:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
This article has been rewritten by someone with an obviosly strong POV to make those who oppose High-Stakes testing look ridiculous.
Specific Examples:
"instead of being able to obtain the goal with greater certainty through apparent effort, good attendance records, favoritism, the reputation of the educational institution, or other means that are either less related to the individual's actual skill or that are more open to manipulation of the examiner."
"Sometimes a high-stakes test is tied to a controversial reward. For example, some people may want a high-school diploma to represent the verified acquisition of specific skills or knowledge, and therefore use a high-stakes assessment to deny a diploma to anyone who cannot perform the necessary skills.[7] Others may want a high school diploma to represent primarily a certificate of attendance, so that a student who faithfully attended school but cannot read or write will still get the social benefits of graduation.[8]"
"High-stakes testing creates more incentive for cheating. Because cheating one's way through one critical exam may be easier than earning credit through attendance, diligence, or many smaller tests, more examinees that do not actually have the necessary knowledge or skills will pass. Also, some people who would otherwise pass the test but are not confident enough of themselves might decide to additionally secure the outcome by cheating, get caught and often face even worse consequences than just failing. This assumes that the high-stakes test is used in place of other assessments, rather than in conjunction as is often done."
This whole article needs a re-write, as it takes every opportunity to present those opposed to high-stakes testing as ridiculous. I think it's obvious that this POV has political aims.
173.45.201.98 ( talk) 04:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
By request on the NPOV noticeboard I had a go at NPOV'ing some statements. The statement below is problematic:
A high-stakes system may benefit people other than the test-taker. For professional certification and licensure examinations, the purpose of the test is to protect the general public from incompetent practitioners. The individual stakes of the medical student and the medical school must be balanced against the social stakes of possibly allowing an incompetent doctor to practice medicine. [1]
I removed it. While it is true that TESTING may benefit society, there is no specific indication that HIGH-STAKES testing is a benefit. The statement above assumes so. Or it may be saying, unclearly, that professional competency tests are in-effect, high stakes tests for the future of society. In either case, fix it, or remove it.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 15:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I have also removed the sections below:
Without citations, this statement (or at least the example) seems like a straw man designed simply to make the criticism look foolish. Are there actually critics saying driver's license exams are undesirable?
In the case of the statements above, the citations do NOT reflect the editor's assertions. Without proper citations, the assertions are again suggest a strawman designed to make critics look foolish.
Find appropriate citations for the statements, or remove them. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 16:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
References
A famous example of cheating for high-stakes exams is the Chicago scandal profiled in Freakonomics. The school district said they would fire any teacher whose students performed extremely badly on the end-of-year standardized tests. Some of the (worst) teachers "corrected" student test papers to prevent the school from discovering their ineptitude and firing them. I don't have a copy of the book, but it shouldn't be too hard to find information about it, if everyone agrees that this would make a good example for the cheating item under ==Criticism==.
This says:
Similarly, testing under the U.S.'s NCLB law has almost no negative consequences for failing students, but potentially serious consequences for their schools. The stakes are therefore high for the school, but low for the individual students.
The U.S's NCLB law is not only for elementary and middle school students but is also for high school students as well. See No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Increased_accountability. It does have negative consequences for high school students. If they do not pass the standardized tests, they will not receive the high school diploma. However, the stakes are generally high for the school, but low for the individual students is associated with elementary and middle schools. Legihatp ( talk) 16:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Do you have a reference for that? NCLB test results in low-income school districts do have an impact. The district won't receive funding and that will affect the kids. The dropout rate there would be higher. The number of special education students in a low-income school district generally is much lower than in an affluent school district. NCLB test results wouldn't matter for affluent school districts that have many high-achieving kids. Legihatp ( talk) 18:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
That is true. Many parents think that kids would have to repeat if they don't perform well on the NCLB test. It's a rather shame that parents don't know how to advocate for their kids. Legihatp ( talk) 22:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I reviewed this article based on a request at the NPOV noticeboard. It was indeed highly POV, and CONTINUES TO BE SO.
I have removed the POV tag, however, because what is CAUSING the POV is that the editors involved are making assertions that have not been sourced to references.
If the many citation needed tags can be replaced with actual sources that confirm these assertions, then the article would probably get a low pass on a high-stakes NPOV review.
Please note that simply citing a source is NOT sufficient. The citations in the "high-school diploma" examples removed (see above), for example, did NOT confirm the editor(s)'s assertions of fact. Thus the assertions are both POV and dubious. Please play fair.
Editors should source the article, or FEEL ENTIRELY FREE TO REMOVE uncited statements after allowing a reasonable time for the statements to be cited. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 16:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
"Since the stakes are related to consequences, not method, however, short tests can also be high-stakes." has been marked as "citation needed", a statement that indicates that an editor somehow believes that a short test, e.g., the fifteen-minute written portion of a driver's license test, cannot possibly be high-stakes.
This seems beyond odd to me, but if this is a serious point of dispute, as opposed to a misuse of this tag (which is not to be used for information whose factual accuracy is undisputed), then please enlighten me. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
"A high-stakes system may benefit people other than the test-taker. For professional certification and licensure examinations, the purpose of the test is to protect the general public from incompetent practitioners. The individual stakes of the medical student and the medical school must be balanced against the social stakes of possibly allowing an incompetent doctor to practice medicine. [1]"
was deleted. It's sourced, it's accurate, and it's relevant, because it establishes why a thoughtful society might choose to have some high-stakes tests. Why was this deleted? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:51, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
References
It's sourced -- to the National Science Foundation, no less -- it's accurate, and it's relevant. This is the most common criticism of high-stakes tests, and in the US, this criticism is always leveled against high school exit exams, which makes them the perfect example. Deleting this material unbalances the article. Why was this deleted? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help) addresses this (in part) -- specifically, using a "small" test (e.g., high school exit exam) to make a "big" decision (access to most jobs and most universities for the rest of your life). It may be an interesting source of sources as well.
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
17:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC){{
cite journal}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help); Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help) addresses this issue, again somewhat indirectly: "A strong vocal minority, however, cautioned against the use of testing to make placement, promotion, and diploma decisions. They feared that students who are educated in poorly financed school systems would be unduly penalized, and that minorities would be disproportionately affected by high-stakes testing and suffer unfair consequences for their poor performance on such tests. Consequently, the high-stakes movement has created considerable controversy." The critics admit that the students have "poor performance" (e.g., can't read well enough), but don't want them to suffer the consequences for this poor performance (typically on the grounds that the poor performance is not [entirely] the student's fault). In short, everyone agrees that these students do not have the required skills, but some people still want them to get the benefit reserved for those that have the skills.
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
18:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)(Just stepping back on indentation.) And no, the information isn't new, the article already discusses concerns from "The test does not correctly measure the individual's knowledge or skills." If the test is misinterpreted, then this is the criticism. There is still no need for an additional entry here. Moreover, the cited sources do not claim what you say they do. It's just not verifiable. 173.45.201.98 ( talk) 22:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
References
This information is obviously accurate. The specific sentence that a citation is demanded for strikes me as particularly absurd, because everybody knows that if you flunk the driving exam, you can't drive a car legally, and that this can have negative consequences for someone that is dependent on driving. Wikipedia's verifiability policy requires citations for (1) direct quotations and (2) information whose accuracy is (likely to be) challenged -- not citations for the sake of footnoting what everyone already knows.
One of the major complaints about high-stakes exams is that some people who, honestly, on their own merits, really do deserve to fail, will in fact fail, and that this can have undesirable consequences. For example: Students with limited English proficiency tend to flunk high school exit exams at a greater-than-average rate, and then they don't get a real high school diploma. Is it really fair for a teenager who was forced to immigrate to a country that speaks another language to be penalized his entire life because he wasn't fluent in the local language by the time he turned 17 or 18? Several lawsuits in California have claimed that it's not fair.
In terms of due weight for the criticisms, this is important for establishing that criticisms of high-stake tests are not solely restricted to poorly conceived assessments. There is no possible way to tweak an exam written in Russian that will cause me (a non-Russian reader) to be able to pass it.
So why was this deleted? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I can't come up with fair summary of these sources that does not indicate that people sometimes criticize high-stakes tests because of accurate results. "Tests reveal that some examinees do not know the required material, or do not have the necessary skills" strikes me as a more polite and neutral way of saying "Schools blame the tests for their own ineffectiveness."
Shall I produce more such sources? It's not hard, just tedious -- especially for a fact that you have already agreed is obviously true. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
So will you go back to the second source in the bulleted list above, and tell me what's wrong with that one? It contains a direct quotation from a formal resolution passed by the Los Angeles United School District that roundly condemns high-stakes tests, and when you translate the "Mistakes were made -- the passive voice was used -- responsibility was shirked" language in plain, direct English, it says "These test takers failed because they do not have the required skills." (The rest of the resolution goes on to blame LAUSD's failure to teach the students on the district's reliance on underqualified teachers, inadequate tax revenues, and a list of social and cultural problems beyond the district's control.)
This statement is (1) in a reliable source, (2) in a secondary source, (3) made by a strong critic of high-stakes tests, (4) that is being directly penalized [loss of money, damage to reputation, and a high likelihood of the politicians being voted out of office] (4.1) because the tests showed, in an indisputable, non-fudge-able manner, that (4.2) the test takers do not have the required skills.
I'm not sure why, exactly, you rejected this originally. Perhaps you overlooked it? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
It seems to make sense to me, actually, that perhaps we should rewrite the criticisms section into two sections, one with criticisms, and the other with common arguments for HSTs. If done right, we could include both the common criticisms, the common support arguments, and each side's views of the other. This would describe the debate quite handily without pushing a particular POV. 173.45.201.98 ( talk) 08:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
This source:
is fine, as far as I'm concerned, but it simply does not say that the SAT is a high-stakes test. We can't infer from "some college entrance exams" to "the SAT in particular". There are zero "high-quality" universities in the US that absolutely require a certain score on that test. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm the IP user who has been debating stuff here, I've made a username and I don't want anyone to misunderstand my intents. Irbisgreif ( talk) 10:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I can't imagine a good reason for deleting a properly sourced scholarly definition of a high-stakes test, but if you've got one, please let me know.
Also, whenever you delete a named ref (<ref name=something>), you need to check the rest of the article to make sure that it wasn't being re-used. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human intelligence to edit them according to the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 02:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
01:22, 20 February 2017 (UTC)I (Richard at Nonpartisan Education) appreciate how this page has turned out thus far. The definition of high stakes is far closer to what most would assume for it than one finds in some education establishment publications, where it can be very fungible, floating this way and that in order to serve different arguments.
However, there is a reference embedded in the page that I would like to have either deleted or changed. Here it is: "Phelps' critique of Cannell paper: Misunderstandings". Independent Education Review. ISSN 1557-2870. "The ACT and SAT are not the highest stakes tests. Indeed, they may more accurately be categorized as medium stakes tests. One can do poorly on either test, and one will still get into college somewhere. By contrast, a couple dozen states, and most other countries, require passage of a test in order to graduate. That's high stakes."
Ostensibly, this reference is borrowed from a Duke University Gifted & Talented Education website. But, you will not find it there now -- it's a dead end. The link does take one to a web site that has not posted a new article in ten years, is mostly devoted to my personal character assassination, and posts a review that I wrote with the understanding that it would be a blind journal review of a submitted manuscript. Read it for yourselves; it is obvious that it was meant to be a blind review. In that blind review, I referred to actions that I had been told were true and believed, at the time, to be true, but were not true. In short I trusted someone who turned out to be untrustworthy, and he has now for ten years posted what I wrote erroneously because I trusted what he told me.
There are two reasonable reactions. Either one would be perfectly OK with me. One, simply delete reference 8. Two, update reference 8 to include a relevant reference to my writings that is written for public consumption:
"Phelps' Further Comment on Lake Wobegon, Twenty Years Later, http://nonpartisaneducation.org/Review/Essays/v2n3.htm. ISSN 2150-6477. "The ACT and SAT are not the highest stakes tests. Indeed, they may more accurately be categorized as medium stakes tests. One can do poorly on either test, and one will still get into college somewhere. By contrast, a couple dozen states, and most other countries, require passage of a test in order to graduate. That's high stakes."
RP (Richard at Nonpartisan Education)
P.S. An editor by the moniker, Thomas.W, argues that what I am doing is "inappropriate". After I updated the reference to something I had actually written for public consumption, he changed everything back to the dead link, to a personally defaming website, but historically consistent, linkage. His actions, he claims are justified thusly:
"Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did to High-stakes testing. Wikipedia is not a collection of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include, but are not limited to, links to personal websites, links to websites with which you are affiliated (whether as a link in article text, or a citation in an article), and links that attract visitors to a website or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam guideline for further explanations. Because Wikipedia uses the nofollow attribute value, its external links are disregarded by most search engines. If you feel the link should be added to the page, please discuss it on the associated talk page rather than re-adding it. Caution for reference spamming (changing an existing reference link to a link leading to a company you're obviously associated with). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:00, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
"A) You would have been warned for reference spamming for that edit (replacing an existing reference with your own with no valid reason for it) even if you had had another username, and B) what you write above is a matter that has to be settled off Wikipedia, between you and him, not a valid reason for replacing the other reference with your own. Especially since we can't take your word for it, since this is the Internet where anyone can claim anything. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)"
Thomas.W seems very sure of himself. — Preceding
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Richard at Nonpartisan Education (
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Hmm... I wonder if the Imperial examinations count... If they do, they should be mentioned?
SomeDude! ( talk) 03:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
A Third Opinion was requested. However, there does not seem to have been discussion on this talk page. There was a lengthy request at the Third Opinion board, but the Third Opinion request should follow discussion on the article talk page. I cleaned up the request at the Third Opinion board, and, it seems, in the process, deleted the substance of the request. That is, there wasn't a question here, only at the Third Opinion board. Please state the question here. In the meantime, the request will be deleted from the Third Opinion board. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
From: Richard at Nonpartisan Education
Seems Kafka-esque. So, the long request I wrote on the Third Opinion page has been cleaned up (i.e., deleted). Wikipedia has its own rules, culture, and software, and I am new to it and still trying to learn. I will try to reproduce the cleaned-up text here and this time I will save a copy.
Thomas W. insists that a reference I object to--a reference that is, only ostensibly, to something I wrote--must be maintained. I assert that the reference should either be deleted or replaced. Some of the discussion over this matter can be found above. Thomas W. has accused me of "spamming" and of directing citations to my "company" (the Nonpartisan Education Review is a nonprofit online journal run by volunteers that loses thousands of dollars every year, if anyone chose to count).
I deleted a reference and replaced it with one equally as relevant to the topical point but that leads to a publication that I actually intended to be published. I would be just as happy if the reference were deleted, or if the reference were to some publication I wrote containing the same topical point, but that is not associated with my "company". The reference Thomas W. insists must be maintained leads to a gifted education newsletter at Duke University. Years ago, I saw it there, requested that the reference be deleted and the newsletter editors agreed with me that it should be deleted. You cannot find it there today. Thomas W. has to employ an archiving service to resurrect it.
The document to which Thomas W. insists people be directed is located at an online journal I and a few dozen colleagues were associated with a decade ago. We all quit due to unethical practices. As retaliation, the person responsible for that journal, which hasn't published anything new since 2006, posts text intended to defame my reputation. One such is the document Thomas W. insists must be referenced on this Wikipedia page. Its base is a review I wrote of a manuscript submitted for review to the journal. Submitted reviews are supposed to be "blind", anonymous. Because he is pissed off, he has posted my "blind" review and is free to add to it and subtract from it. I have requested multiple times that anything to do with me be removed from that "journal". He has refused. Sure, I could sue him, but it would cost me, at the most conservative estimate, more than $20 thousand.
Thomas W. insists that I must "work this out" with him. But, the person in question happens to be a separate human being, one that I do not control. It happens that he can behave as he wishes.
Anyone can know my identity; I have made it obvious. One has no idea who Thomas W. is. By Wikipedia rules, as I understand them, I cannot add any references to my own publications because I might be biased. I happen to have conducted, over the course of 12 years, the largest meta-analysis on the effects of testing--including high stake testing--ever. But, I cannot add it.
So, because I happen to know a lot about the subject at hand, I cannot add information to this web page. But, also, if Thomas W. is correct, I cannot delete my name from it either when the reference to me is defamatory. So, because I know a lot about this topic, my only possible fate is to be demonized? That is my working hypothesis. If I am wrong, you are welcome to explain how.
P.S. I would argue that the references Thomas W. has just added are very one-sided on the issue in general. But, I must be biased, and he must not be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard at Nonpartisan Education ( talk • contribs) 22:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
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I admit that this:
sounds a bit silly at first glance, but at bottom this is one common "civil rights" argument against high school graduation exams. There are actually people who think it's better to give a high school diploma to a kid who is functionally illiterate because the "stupid piece of paper" is necessary to get many jobs these days. Some of these people oppose high-stakes testing specifically because kids who cannot read will actually be identified as not being able to read. I'm open to a better example, but the general idea that a test can identify people with inadequate knowledge is important. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
This "article" is nothing but a dictionary definition of the compound "high-stakes" and "exam". "High stakes testing" is not a topic. -- Gronky ( talk) 12:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
This article has been rewritten by someone with an obviosly strong POV to make those who oppose High-Stakes testing look ridiculous.
Specific Examples:
"instead of being able to obtain the goal with greater certainty through apparent effort, good attendance records, favoritism, the reputation of the educational institution, or other means that are either less related to the individual's actual skill or that are more open to manipulation of the examiner."
"Sometimes a high-stakes test is tied to a controversial reward. For example, some people may want a high-school diploma to represent the verified acquisition of specific skills or knowledge, and therefore use a high-stakes assessment to deny a diploma to anyone who cannot perform the necessary skills.[7] Others may want a high school diploma to represent primarily a certificate of attendance, so that a student who faithfully attended school but cannot read or write will still get the social benefits of graduation.[8]"
"High-stakes testing creates more incentive for cheating. Because cheating one's way through one critical exam may be easier than earning credit through attendance, diligence, or many smaller tests, more examinees that do not actually have the necessary knowledge or skills will pass. Also, some people who would otherwise pass the test but are not confident enough of themselves might decide to additionally secure the outcome by cheating, get caught and often face even worse consequences than just failing. This assumes that the high-stakes test is used in place of other assessments, rather than in conjunction as is often done."
This whole article needs a re-write, as it takes every opportunity to present those opposed to high-stakes testing as ridiculous. I think it's obvious that this POV has political aims.
173.45.201.98 ( talk) 04:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
By request on the NPOV noticeboard I had a go at NPOV'ing some statements. The statement below is problematic:
A high-stakes system may benefit people other than the test-taker. For professional certification and licensure examinations, the purpose of the test is to protect the general public from incompetent practitioners. The individual stakes of the medical student and the medical school must be balanced against the social stakes of possibly allowing an incompetent doctor to practice medicine. [1]
I removed it. While it is true that TESTING may benefit society, there is no specific indication that HIGH-STAKES testing is a benefit. The statement above assumes so. Or it may be saying, unclearly, that professional competency tests are in-effect, high stakes tests for the future of society. In either case, fix it, or remove it.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 15:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I have also removed the sections below:
Without citations, this statement (or at least the example) seems like a straw man designed simply to make the criticism look foolish. Are there actually critics saying driver's license exams are undesirable?
In the case of the statements above, the citations do NOT reflect the editor's assertions. Without proper citations, the assertions are again suggest a strawman designed to make critics look foolish.
Find appropriate citations for the statements, or remove them. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 16:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
References
A famous example of cheating for high-stakes exams is the Chicago scandal profiled in Freakonomics. The school district said they would fire any teacher whose students performed extremely badly on the end-of-year standardized tests. Some of the (worst) teachers "corrected" student test papers to prevent the school from discovering their ineptitude and firing them. I don't have a copy of the book, but it shouldn't be too hard to find information about it, if everyone agrees that this would make a good example for the cheating item under ==Criticism==.
This says:
Similarly, testing under the U.S.'s NCLB law has almost no negative consequences for failing students, but potentially serious consequences for their schools. The stakes are therefore high for the school, but low for the individual students.
The U.S's NCLB law is not only for elementary and middle school students but is also for high school students as well. See No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Increased_accountability. It does have negative consequences for high school students. If they do not pass the standardized tests, they will not receive the high school diploma. However, the stakes are generally high for the school, but low for the individual students is associated with elementary and middle schools. Legihatp ( talk) 16:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Do you have a reference for that? NCLB test results in low-income school districts do have an impact. The district won't receive funding and that will affect the kids. The dropout rate there would be higher. The number of special education students in a low-income school district generally is much lower than in an affluent school district. NCLB test results wouldn't matter for affluent school districts that have many high-achieving kids. Legihatp ( talk) 18:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
That is true. Many parents think that kids would have to repeat if they don't perform well on the NCLB test. It's a rather shame that parents don't know how to advocate for their kids. Legihatp ( talk) 22:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I reviewed this article based on a request at the NPOV noticeboard. It was indeed highly POV, and CONTINUES TO BE SO.
I have removed the POV tag, however, because what is CAUSING the POV is that the editors involved are making assertions that have not been sourced to references.
If the many citation needed tags can be replaced with actual sources that confirm these assertions, then the article would probably get a low pass on a high-stakes NPOV review.
Please note that simply citing a source is NOT sufficient. The citations in the "high-school diploma" examples removed (see above), for example, did NOT confirm the editor(s)'s assertions of fact. Thus the assertions are both POV and dubious. Please play fair.
Editors should source the article, or FEEL ENTIRELY FREE TO REMOVE uncited statements after allowing a reasonable time for the statements to be cited. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 16:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
"Since the stakes are related to consequences, not method, however, short tests can also be high-stakes." has been marked as "citation needed", a statement that indicates that an editor somehow believes that a short test, e.g., the fifteen-minute written portion of a driver's license test, cannot possibly be high-stakes.
This seems beyond odd to me, but if this is a serious point of dispute, as opposed to a misuse of this tag (which is not to be used for information whose factual accuracy is undisputed), then please enlighten me. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
"A high-stakes system may benefit people other than the test-taker. For professional certification and licensure examinations, the purpose of the test is to protect the general public from incompetent practitioners. The individual stakes of the medical student and the medical school must be balanced against the social stakes of possibly allowing an incompetent doctor to practice medicine. [1]"
was deleted. It's sourced, it's accurate, and it's relevant, because it establishes why a thoughtful society might choose to have some high-stakes tests. Why was this deleted? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:51, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
References
It's sourced -- to the National Science Foundation, no less -- it's accurate, and it's relevant. This is the most common criticism of high-stakes tests, and in the US, this criticism is always leveled against high school exit exams, which makes them the perfect example. Deleting this material unbalances the article. Why was this deleted? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 23:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help) addresses this (in part) -- specifically, using a "small" test (e.g., high school exit exam) to make a "big" decision (access to most jobs and most universities for the rest of your life). It may be an interesting source of sources as well.
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
17:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC){{
cite journal}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help); Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help) addresses this issue, again somewhat indirectly: "A strong vocal minority, however, cautioned against the use of testing to make placement, promotion, and diploma decisions. They feared that students who are educated in poorly financed school systems would be unduly penalized, and that minorities would be disproportionately affected by high-stakes testing and suffer unfair consequences for their poor performance on such tests. Consequently, the high-stakes movement has created considerable controversy." The critics admit that the students have "poor performance" (e.g., can't read well enough), but don't want them to suffer the consequences for this poor performance (typically on the grounds that the poor performance is not [entirely] the student's fault). In short, everyone agrees that these students do not have the required skills, but some people still want them to get the benefit reserved for those that have the skills.
WhatamIdoing (
talk)
18:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)(Just stepping back on indentation.) And no, the information isn't new, the article already discusses concerns from "The test does not correctly measure the individual's knowledge or skills." If the test is misinterpreted, then this is the criticism. There is still no need for an additional entry here. Moreover, the cited sources do not claim what you say they do. It's just not verifiable. 173.45.201.98 ( talk) 22:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
References
This information is obviously accurate. The specific sentence that a citation is demanded for strikes me as particularly absurd, because everybody knows that if you flunk the driving exam, you can't drive a car legally, and that this can have negative consequences for someone that is dependent on driving. Wikipedia's verifiability policy requires citations for (1) direct quotations and (2) information whose accuracy is (likely to be) challenged -- not citations for the sake of footnoting what everyone already knows.
One of the major complaints about high-stakes exams is that some people who, honestly, on their own merits, really do deserve to fail, will in fact fail, and that this can have undesirable consequences. For example: Students with limited English proficiency tend to flunk high school exit exams at a greater-than-average rate, and then they don't get a real high school diploma. Is it really fair for a teenager who was forced to immigrate to a country that speaks another language to be penalized his entire life because he wasn't fluent in the local language by the time he turned 17 or 18? Several lawsuits in California have claimed that it's not fair.
In terms of due weight for the criticisms, this is important for establishing that criticisms of high-stake tests are not solely restricted to poorly conceived assessments. There is no possible way to tweak an exam written in Russian that will cause me (a non-Russian reader) to be able to pass it.
So why was this deleted? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I can't come up with fair summary of these sources that does not indicate that people sometimes criticize high-stakes tests because of accurate results. "Tests reveal that some examinees do not know the required material, or do not have the necessary skills" strikes me as a more polite and neutral way of saying "Schools blame the tests for their own ineffectiveness."
Shall I produce more such sources? It's not hard, just tedious -- especially for a fact that you have already agreed is obviously true. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 20:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
So will you go back to the second source in the bulleted list above, and tell me what's wrong with that one? It contains a direct quotation from a formal resolution passed by the Los Angeles United School District that roundly condemns high-stakes tests, and when you translate the "Mistakes were made -- the passive voice was used -- responsibility was shirked" language in plain, direct English, it says "These test takers failed because they do not have the required skills." (The rest of the resolution goes on to blame LAUSD's failure to teach the students on the district's reliance on underqualified teachers, inadequate tax revenues, and a list of social and cultural problems beyond the district's control.)
This statement is (1) in a reliable source, (2) in a secondary source, (3) made by a strong critic of high-stakes tests, (4) that is being directly penalized [loss of money, damage to reputation, and a high likelihood of the politicians being voted out of office] (4.1) because the tests showed, in an indisputable, non-fudge-able manner, that (4.2) the test takers do not have the required skills.
I'm not sure why, exactly, you rejected this originally. Perhaps you overlooked it? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
It seems to make sense to me, actually, that perhaps we should rewrite the criticisms section into two sections, one with criticisms, and the other with common arguments for HSTs. If done right, we could include both the common criticisms, the common support arguments, and each side's views of the other. This would describe the debate quite handily without pushing a particular POV. 173.45.201.98 ( talk) 08:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
This source:
is fine, as far as I'm concerned, but it simply does not say that the SAT is a high-stakes test. We can't infer from "some college entrance exams" to "the SAT in particular". There are zero "high-quality" universities in the US that absolutely require a certain score on that test. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm the IP user who has been debating stuff here, I've made a username and I don't want anyone to misunderstand my intents. Irbisgreif ( talk) 10:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I can't imagine a good reason for deleting a properly sourced scholarly definition of a high-stakes test, but if you've got one, please let me know.
Also, whenever you delete a named ref (<ref name=something>), you need to check the rest of the article to make sure that it wasn't being re-used. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human intelligence to edit them according to the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 02:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
01:22, 20 February 2017 (UTC)I (Richard at Nonpartisan Education) appreciate how this page has turned out thus far. The definition of high stakes is far closer to what most would assume for it than one finds in some education establishment publications, where it can be very fungible, floating this way and that in order to serve different arguments.
However, there is a reference embedded in the page that I would like to have either deleted or changed. Here it is: "Phelps' critique of Cannell paper: Misunderstandings". Independent Education Review. ISSN 1557-2870. "The ACT and SAT are not the highest stakes tests. Indeed, they may more accurately be categorized as medium stakes tests. One can do poorly on either test, and one will still get into college somewhere. By contrast, a couple dozen states, and most other countries, require passage of a test in order to graduate. That's high stakes."
Ostensibly, this reference is borrowed from a Duke University Gifted & Talented Education website. But, you will not find it there now -- it's a dead end. The link does take one to a web site that has not posted a new article in ten years, is mostly devoted to my personal character assassination, and posts a review that I wrote with the understanding that it would be a blind journal review of a submitted manuscript. Read it for yourselves; it is obvious that it was meant to be a blind review. In that blind review, I referred to actions that I had been told were true and believed, at the time, to be true, but were not true. In short I trusted someone who turned out to be untrustworthy, and he has now for ten years posted what I wrote erroneously because I trusted what he told me.
There are two reasonable reactions. Either one would be perfectly OK with me. One, simply delete reference 8. Two, update reference 8 to include a relevant reference to my writings that is written for public consumption:
"Phelps' Further Comment on Lake Wobegon, Twenty Years Later, http://nonpartisaneducation.org/Review/Essays/v2n3.htm. ISSN 2150-6477. "The ACT and SAT are not the highest stakes tests. Indeed, they may more accurately be categorized as medium stakes tests. One can do poorly on either test, and one will still get into college somewhere. By contrast, a couple dozen states, and most other countries, require passage of a test in order to graduate. That's high stakes."
RP (Richard at Nonpartisan Education)
P.S. An editor by the moniker, Thomas.W, argues that what I am doing is "inappropriate". After I updated the reference to something I had actually written for public consumption, he changed everything back to the dead link, to a personally defaming website, but historically consistent, linkage. His actions, he claims are justified thusly:
"Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did to High-stakes testing. Wikipedia is not a collection of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include, but are not limited to, links to personal websites, links to websites with which you are affiliated (whether as a link in article text, or a citation in an article), and links that attract visitors to a website or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam guideline for further explanations. Because Wikipedia uses the nofollow attribute value, its external links are disregarded by most search engines. If you feel the link should be added to the page, please discuss it on the associated talk page rather than re-adding it. Caution for reference spamming (changing an existing reference link to a link leading to a company you're obviously associated with). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:00, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
"A) You would have been warned for reference spamming for that edit (replacing an existing reference with your own with no valid reason for it) even if you had had another username, and B) what you write above is a matter that has to be settled off Wikipedia, between you and him, not a valid reason for replacing the other reference with your own. Especially since we can't take your word for it, since this is the Internet where anyone can claim anything. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)"
Thomas.W seems very sure of himself. — Preceding
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Richard at Nonpartisan Education (
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contribs)
01:22, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
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Hmm... I wonder if the Imperial examinations count... If they do, they should be mentioned?
SomeDude! ( talk) 03:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
A Third Opinion was requested. However, there does not seem to have been discussion on this talk page. There was a lengthy request at the Third Opinion board, but the Third Opinion request should follow discussion on the article talk page. I cleaned up the request at the Third Opinion board, and, it seems, in the process, deleted the substance of the request. That is, there wasn't a question here, only at the Third Opinion board. Please state the question here. In the meantime, the request will be deleted from the Third Opinion board. Robert McClenon ( talk) 03:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
From: Richard at Nonpartisan Education
Seems Kafka-esque. So, the long request I wrote on the Third Opinion page has been cleaned up (i.e., deleted). Wikipedia has its own rules, culture, and software, and I am new to it and still trying to learn. I will try to reproduce the cleaned-up text here and this time I will save a copy.
Thomas W. insists that a reference I object to--a reference that is, only ostensibly, to something I wrote--must be maintained. I assert that the reference should either be deleted or replaced. Some of the discussion over this matter can be found above. Thomas W. has accused me of "spamming" and of directing citations to my "company" (the Nonpartisan Education Review is a nonprofit online journal run by volunteers that loses thousands of dollars every year, if anyone chose to count).
I deleted a reference and replaced it with one equally as relevant to the topical point but that leads to a publication that I actually intended to be published. I would be just as happy if the reference were deleted, or if the reference were to some publication I wrote containing the same topical point, but that is not associated with my "company". The reference Thomas W. insists must be maintained leads to a gifted education newsletter at Duke University. Years ago, I saw it there, requested that the reference be deleted and the newsletter editors agreed with me that it should be deleted. You cannot find it there today. Thomas W. has to employ an archiving service to resurrect it.
The document to which Thomas W. insists people be directed is located at an online journal I and a few dozen colleagues were associated with a decade ago. We all quit due to unethical practices. As retaliation, the person responsible for that journal, which hasn't published anything new since 2006, posts text intended to defame my reputation. One such is the document Thomas W. insists must be referenced on this Wikipedia page. Its base is a review I wrote of a manuscript submitted for review to the journal. Submitted reviews are supposed to be "blind", anonymous. Because he is pissed off, he has posted my "blind" review and is free to add to it and subtract from it. I have requested multiple times that anything to do with me be removed from that "journal". He has refused. Sure, I could sue him, but it would cost me, at the most conservative estimate, more than $20 thousand.
Thomas W. insists that I must "work this out" with him. But, the person in question happens to be a separate human being, one that I do not control. It happens that he can behave as he wishes.
Anyone can know my identity; I have made it obvious. One has no idea who Thomas W. is. By Wikipedia rules, as I understand them, I cannot add any references to my own publications because I might be biased. I happen to have conducted, over the course of 12 years, the largest meta-analysis on the effects of testing--including high stake testing--ever. But, I cannot add it.
So, because I happen to know a lot about the subject at hand, I cannot add information to this web page. But, also, if Thomas W. is correct, I cannot delete my name from it either when the reference to me is defamatory. So, because I know a lot about this topic, my only possible fate is to be demonized? That is my working hypothesis. If I am wrong, you are welcome to explain how.
P.S. I would argue that the references Thomas W. has just added are very one-sided on the issue in general. But, I must be biased, and he must not be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard at Nonpartisan Education ( talk • contribs) 22:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)