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High-dynamic-range television article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Text and/or other creative content from High-dynamic-range imaging was copied or moved into High-dynamic-range video with this edit on July 27, 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
On 10 June 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to ?. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
I have created a draft about HDR adoption and formats compatibilty. For now, it's too much incompleted and doesn't provide enough sources. Please help to expand it. Any help is highly welcomed! Thanks. — SH4ever ( talk) 20:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
This article repeats claims (taken from a Dolby source) that Dolby Vision is superior to HDR10+ because the former supports 10k while the latter allegedly only supports 4k nits. Can we either get a primary source for this that is not "a claim made by Dolby or an article repeating a claim made by Dolby", or remove it? I could not find any such reference in the standards HDR10+ is based on (e.g. SMPTE ST2094-40), which in fact mention that the coded metadata's mastering display brightness also has an upper bound of 10k nits. (And, of course, the PQ function HDR10+ is based on supports the exact same range as Dolby Vision, so arguing this sort of doesn't make sense to begin with).
Similarly Dolby Vision is listed as supporting 12 bits, but it doesn't. The input base layer can't be higher than main10 4:2:0 with any current profile and at 4k the enhancement layer is 1920x1080 which means the already subsampled chroma information is getting upscaled into near oblivion and the luma (which is pretty much all HDR seems to care about or we'd have 4:4:4 as the UHD bluray standard and correspondingly larger media or at least the LCD-based displays would be 10bpc panels) still only contains 1/4 of the information needed for a full 12 bit luma reconstruction, so it's kinda smoke and mirrors. HDR10+ has its own problems but they don't list any particular limit to the input video, so main12 would be fine and 4:2:0 which is the highest chroma anyone would be likely to distribute would still be far superior to Dolby's 10bpc hybrid. I read somewhere that this was done entirely because decoder ASICs were all 32 bit and decoding 12bpc HEVC in hardware requires at least 36, so it was much easier to require two 10bpc HEVC decoder chips in a bluray player with full support than get a whole new line of chips created. The other side effect of this is that the second decoder chip was (and still might be) entirely optional and the player just falls back to metadata-only presentation (or MEL as Dolby calls it, the dummy EL stream version with a blank video EL) of the data without warning the user. Since no display on the planet can show 12 bits of chroma anyway and probably won't any time soon (and most people can only see 10 vs. 8 with specific test images) and consumer-level displays don't really go upwards of 1000 nits or anywhere near it without array-based backlighting that makes seeing any block-artifacting as a result of the upscale impossible, dolby is pretty safe for the near future on making the 12 bit claim, even if it only applies to some UHD-BD disks and not any other DV content I'm aware of. A Shortfall Of Gravitas ( talk) 08:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
The first paragraph statement that HDR means deeper blacks is false. The only limiting factor as to how dark the blacks are is the minimum black level of the display itself. HDR only increases the maximum nit value contained in the image encoding it does nothing to lower the intrinsic black levels of the source content. See the following article for a technical description of HDR and a lot of the misconceptions being spread about it (including by wikipedia it would seem): https://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html 94.175.102.211 ( talk) 17:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Since this article is not only about content/encoding, I've edited the opening paragraph to be more specific. -- Ajul1987 ( talk) 18:26, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
The paragraphs under the sub-heading "Capture" and the paragraph under the sub-heading "Production" are not related to this article. This article talk about the HDR formats allowing to store and distribute HDR videos and images such as HDR10 and Dolby Vision. This should not be confused with the photography technique also called "HDR" allowing to expanse the dynamic range captured by digital camera. The paragraphs should be moved to the article " HDR imaging". — Preceding unsigned comment added by SH4ever ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
An illustration of the three color primaries sets related to HDR is needed for the section about chromaticity. There are already individual illustrations for Rec.2020/Rec.2100, DCI-P3 and Rec.709/sRGB. An illustration showing both three in the same picture is needed. SH4ever ( talk) 12:18, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
So that is to prevent edit warring with you know who. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
First of all: 8 bit HDR in AVC is possible and is supported by LG C9, it triggers HDR. One just have to tag the file as PQ transfer and 8 bit to 10 bit is defined by BT.709 even. Sample is here: https://disk.yandex.ru/i/ZKd0INUrpHtoDg I will also point out that 10 bit is not required by DisplayHDR (but accepting HDR10 is) and I wrote about it in this very article. Nvidia and Windows HD color menu does support 8 bit HDR, see screenshot here. https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2020-lg-cx%E2%80%93gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-and-pc.3138274/post-60688621 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Next. Netflix does not use BT.2020 container for production. It uses Display P3 mxf with JPEG 2000 instead with PQ transfer and converts for BT.2020 container for streaming. There are even reliable sources in DCI-P3 article. See sample here: https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/9145 and full here https://opencontent.netflix.com/ (Sol Levante). Also, there are not too many movies that support outside DCI-P3. That is Planet Earth II and latest Star wars. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Next. HDR/WCG tech is very old. For example, film always supported HDR, an example is 1968 (!) movie 2001: A Space Odyssey, it was filmed in film that supports HDR and now is presented as such on Dolby Vision Blu-ray. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
xvYCC supported WCG too, as it is mandatory limited range, it used Cb, Cr outside 16-240 to encode WCG (that is outside BT.709). The same can be done for sRGB and is called sYCC. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Next: Photo CD also supported HDR, not only WCG. WCG was supported by the same means as xvYCC, i.e. the very same extended transfer function. But it also used different quantization to preserve highlights for HDR, Superwhite was used to show it on TV. Superwhite is still supported, even by LG C9. I will quote from Photo CD article: "However, in practice the color space of Photo CD images varies significantly from Rec. 709. Firstly, the Photo CD encoding scheme allows greater than 100% values for color components, thus allowing Photo CD images to display colors outside of the nominal Rec. 709 gamut". 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Now, there was a lot of theoretical work to create PQ function. It is mostly Barten Ramp function, i.e. ITU-R Report BT.2246. All of this should be mentioned in the article(s), if we do not want to be some 2nd level BS source. See https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/smpte-2014-05-06-eotf-miller-1-2-handout-pdf.1347114/ and docs from Wikileaks Sony. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
What should be the title of this article?
The ambiguity around the term HDR and "High Dynamic Range" is an issue. Page name should follow Wikipedia criterias, solve ambiguity, be recognizable and accurate.
This page is about the HDR term related to HDR displays and HDR formats and technologies such PQ, HLG, HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision. It emerged since around 2014.
I changed the page title to "High Dynamic Range (display and formats)". I think this might meet Wikipedia criterias, even if it's a little long. What do you think? Do you have any better proposition? - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
"High-dynamic-range video"
I do not like this very much. While this name is good in term of recognizability, it's not very accurate. This same technology is also used for still pictures (adoption is currently low but it's increasing, why should we be able to see HDR videos but not HDR pictures?). The HDR photography technique (multi-frames capture and merging) is now also used videography (for example: Qualcomp Snapdragon 888 and Xiaomi Mi 11 Ultra). - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
"High Dynamic Range (color representation)"
While this might be accurate, I think it's not enough recognizabile. - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Should we use the abbreviation ? The topic of this page is known primarily by its "HDR" abbreviation. The photography technique is also known primarily by its "HDR" abbreviation. When speaking about the dynamic range capability of a camera, a sensor, raw formats or log formats, the use of the term "high dynamic range" without abbreviation and without capitalization is more frequent. All of this increase disambiguation. - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Feel free to add your proposition.
Substantial changes have been made to this article. What is your opinion about it now? Is the page enough easy to understand? Is it accurate enough? Do you find the answer you were looking for? (Previously there was a lot of issues. Archived discussions states about some of them.) — SH4ever ( talk) 17:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:High dynamic range which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:18, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move after relist ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 01:33, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
High-dynamic-range video →
High-dynamic-range television
— SH4ever ( talk) 20:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:49, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
In short:
Issues I have with the current naming:
More details
In my opinion, "High-dynamic-range television":
—
SH4ever (
talk) 20:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC) — Edited by
SH4ever (
talk)
08:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
Reasons:
Moreover, the term HDR video is not good because:
|
Reason: better follows article's subject + more precise and accurate disambiguation. The proposed naming remains as much recognizable as previous naming (or maybe even a little more) and is similar and consistent with the naming of Wikipedia pages about
SDTV,
HDTV,
UHDTV.
As an example, multi-exposure HDR video is currently discussed in High-dynamic-range imaging#Videography alongside multi-exposure HDR photography. It's easier to not merge the HDR video topics, keep them splitted as they are and instead rename this page from its current "HDR video" naming to "HDR-TV". The more general High dynamic range page is suited to give an overall view of these splitted topics. |
What are your opinion? Pinging @ Dicklyon and @ North8000. — SH4ever ( talk) 15:24, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. At first glance I disagree. But it's hard to see what your argument actually is, it seems to hop around just refer us to a zillion links and external references without really presenting an argument. Also, one of your arguments is actually an argument against your proposed move: "The term "HDR video" has multiple meanings with some of them not related to HDR-TV." In essence that says that your proposed "HDR-TV" title is not suitable for this article. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 15:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Overview of HDR topics |
---|
(Don't pay attention to current Wikipedia naming).
Today, all of these topics are used for both HDR still images and HDR video. SH4ever ( talk) 17:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC) — Edited by SH4ever ( talk) 00:22, 30 December 2021 (UTC) |
In June 2022 Kvng moved the page to match lead, disregarding the not-done consensus. Personally:
-- Artoria 2e5 🌉 13:56, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
https://www.google.com/search?q=dts%3Ax+%222+lfe%22 I also added info about MMR, we now have mpv player that support MMR and polinomial reshaping and also we have CRI stuff apparently defined in hevc spec. Valery Zapolodov ( talk) 15:12, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
High-dynamic-range television article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from High-dynamic-range imaging was copied or moved into High-dynamic-range video with this edit on July 27, 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
On 10 June 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to ?. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
I have created a draft about HDR adoption and formats compatibilty. For now, it's too much incompleted and doesn't provide enough sources. Please help to expand it. Any help is highly welcomed! Thanks. — SH4ever ( talk) 20:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
This article repeats claims (taken from a Dolby source) that Dolby Vision is superior to HDR10+ because the former supports 10k while the latter allegedly only supports 4k nits. Can we either get a primary source for this that is not "a claim made by Dolby or an article repeating a claim made by Dolby", or remove it? I could not find any such reference in the standards HDR10+ is based on (e.g. SMPTE ST2094-40), which in fact mention that the coded metadata's mastering display brightness also has an upper bound of 10k nits. (And, of course, the PQ function HDR10+ is based on supports the exact same range as Dolby Vision, so arguing this sort of doesn't make sense to begin with).
Similarly Dolby Vision is listed as supporting 12 bits, but it doesn't. The input base layer can't be higher than main10 4:2:0 with any current profile and at 4k the enhancement layer is 1920x1080 which means the already subsampled chroma information is getting upscaled into near oblivion and the luma (which is pretty much all HDR seems to care about or we'd have 4:4:4 as the UHD bluray standard and correspondingly larger media or at least the LCD-based displays would be 10bpc panels) still only contains 1/4 of the information needed for a full 12 bit luma reconstruction, so it's kinda smoke and mirrors. HDR10+ has its own problems but they don't list any particular limit to the input video, so main12 would be fine and 4:2:0 which is the highest chroma anyone would be likely to distribute would still be far superior to Dolby's 10bpc hybrid. I read somewhere that this was done entirely because decoder ASICs were all 32 bit and decoding 12bpc HEVC in hardware requires at least 36, so it was much easier to require two 10bpc HEVC decoder chips in a bluray player with full support than get a whole new line of chips created. The other side effect of this is that the second decoder chip was (and still might be) entirely optional and the player just falls back to metadata-only presentation (or MEL as Dolby calls it, the dummy EL stream version with a blank video EL) of the data without warning the user. Since no display on the planet can show 12 bits of chroma anyway and probably won't any time soon (and most people can only see 10 vs. 8 with specific test images) and consumer-level displays don't really go upwards of 1000 nits or anywhere near it without array-based backlighting that makes seeing any block-artifacting as a result of the upscale impossible, dolby is pretty safe for the near future on making the 12 bit claim, even if it only applies to some UHD-BD disks and not any other DV content I'm aware of. A Shortfall Of Gravitas ( talk) 08:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
The first paragraph statement that HDR means deeper blacks is false. The only limiting factor as to how dark the blacks are is the minimum black level of the display itself. HDR only increases the maximum nit value contained in the image encoding it does nothing to lower the intrinsic black levels of the source content. See the following article for a technical description of HDR and a lot of the misconceptions being spread about it (including by wikipedia it would seem): https://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html 94.175.102.211 ( talk) 17:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Since this article is not only about content/encoding, I've edited the opening paragraph to be more specific. -- Ajul1987 ( talk) 18:26, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
The paragraphs under the sub-heading "Capture" and the paragraph under the sub-heading "Production" are not related to this article. This article talk about the HDR formats allowing to store and distribute HDR videos and images such as HDR10 and Dolby Vision. This should not be confused with the photography technique also called "HDR" allowing to expanse the dynamic range captured by digital camera. The paragraphs should be moved to the article " HDR imaging". — Preceding unsigned comment added by SH4ever ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
An illustration of the three color primaries sets related to HDR is needed for the section about chromaticity. There are already individual illustrations for Rec.2020/Rec.2100, DCI-P3 and Rec.709/sRGB. An illustration showing both three in the same picture is needed. SH4ever ( talk) 12:18, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
So that is to prevent edit warring with you know who. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
First of all: 8 bit HDR in AVC is possible and is supported by LG C9, it triggers HDR. One just have to tag the file as PQ transfer and 8 bit to 10 bit is defined by BT.709 even. Sample is here: https://disk.yandex.ru/i/ZKd0INUrpHtoDg I will also point out that 10 bit is not required by DisplayHDR (but accepting HDR10 is) and I wrote about it in this very article. Nvidia and Windows HD color menu does support 8 bit HDR, see screenshot here. https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2020-lg-cx%E2%80%93gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-and-pc.3138274/post-60688621 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Next. Netflix does not use BT.2020 container for production. It uses Display P3 mxf with JPEG 2000 instead with PQ transfer and converts for BT.2020 container for streaming. There are even reliable sources in DCI-P3 article. See sample here: https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/9145 and full here https://opencontent.netflix.com/ (Sol Levante). Also, there are not too many movies that support outside DCI-P3. That is Planet Earth II and latest Star wars. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Next. HDR/WCG tech is very old. For example, film always supported HDR, an example is 1968 (!) movie 2001: A Space Odyssey, it was filmed in film that supports HDR and now is presented as such on Dolby Vision Blu-ray. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
xvYCC supported WCG too, as it is mandatory limited range, it used Cb, Cr outside 16-240 to encode WCG (that is outside BT.709). The same can be done for sRGB and is called sYCC. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Next: Photo CD also supported HDR, not only WCG. WCG was supported by the same means as xvYCC, i.e. the very same extended transfer function. But it also used different quantization to preserve highlights for HDR, Superwhite was used to show it on TV. Superwhite is still supported, even by LG C9. I will quote from Photo CD article: "However, in practice the color space of Photo CD images varies significantly from Rec. 709. Firstly, the Photo CD encoding scheme allows greater than 100% values for color components, thus allowing Photo CD images to display colors outside of the nominal Rec. 709 gamut". 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Now, there was a lot of theoretical work to create PQ function. It is mostly Barten Ramp function, i.e. ITU-R Report BT.2246. All of this should be mentioned in the article(s), if we do not want to be some 2nd level BS source. See https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/smpte-2014-05-06-eotf-miller-1-2-handout-pdf.1347114/ and docs from Wikileaks Sony. 2A00:1370:812D:EB35:380D:2268:F7CE:5D8 ( talk) 11:47, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
What should be the title of this article?
The ambiguity around the term HDR and "High Dynamic Range" is an issue. Page name should follow Wikipedia criterias, solve ambiguity, be recognizable and accurate.
This page is about the HDR term related to HDR displays and HDR formats and technologies such PQ, HLG, HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision. It emerged since around 2014.
I changed the page title to "High Dynamic Range (display and formats)". I think this might meet Wikipedia criterias, even if it's a little long. What do you think? Do you have any better proposition? - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
"High-dynamic-range video"
I do not like this very much. While this name is good in term of recognizability, it's not very accurate. This same technology is also used for still pictures (adoption is currently low but it's increasing, why should we be able to see HDR videos but not HDR pictures?). The HDR photography technique (multi-frames capture and merging) is now also used videography (for example: Qualcomp Snapdragon 888 and Xiaomi Mi 11 Ultra). - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
"High Dynamic Range (color representation)"
While this might be accurate, I think it's not enough recognizabile. - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Should we use the abbreviation ? The topic of this page is known primarily by its "HDR" abbreviation. The photography technique is also known primarily by its "HDR" abbreviation. When speaking about the dynamic range capability of a camera, a sensor, raw formats or log formats, the use of the term "high dynamic range" without abbreviation and without capitalization is more frequent. All of this increase disambiguation. - SH4ever ( talk) 16:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Feel free to add your proposition.
Substantial changes have been made to this article. What is your opinion about it now? Is the page enough easy to understand? Is it accurate enough? Do you find the answer you were looking for? (Previously there was a lot of issues. Archived discussions states about some of them.) — SH4ever ( talk) 17:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:High dynamic range which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:18, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move after relist ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 01:33, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
High-dynamic-range video →
High-dynamic-range television
— SH4ever ( talk) 20:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:49, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
In short:
Issues I have with the current naming:
More details
In my opinion, "High-dynamic-range television":
—
SH4ever (
talk) 20:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC) — Edited by
SH4ever (
talk)
08:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
Reasons:
Moreover, the term HDR video is not good because:
|
Reason: better follows article's subject + more precise and accurate disambiguation. The proposed naming remains as much recognizable as previous naming (or maybe even a little more) and is similar and consistent with the naming of Wikipedia pages about
SDTV,
HDTV,
UHDTV.
As an example, multi-exposure HDR video is currently discussed in High-dynamic-range imaging#Videography alongside multi-exposure HDR photography. It's easier to not merge the HDR video topics, keep them splitted as they are and instead rename this page from its current "HDR video" naming to "HDR-TV". The more general High dynamic range page is suited to give an overall view of these splitted topics. |
What are your opinion? Pinging @ Dicklyon and @ North8000. — SH4ever ( talk) 15:24, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. At first glance I disagree. But it's hard to see what your argument actually is, it seems to hop around just refer us to a zillion links and external references without really presenting an argument. Also, one of your arguments is actually an argument against your proposed move: "The term "HDR video" has multiple meanings with some of them not related to HDR-TV." In essence that says that your proposed "HDR-TV" title is not suitable for this article. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 15:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Overview of HDR topics |
---|
(Don't pay attention to current Wikipedia naming).
Today, all of these topics are used for both HDR still images and HDR video. SH4ever ( talk) 17:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC) — Edited by SH4ever ( talk) 00:22, 30 December 2021 (UTC) |
In June 2022 Kvng moved the page to match lead, disregarding the not-done consensus. Personally:
-- Artoria 2e5 🌉 13:56, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
https://www.google.com/search?q=dts%3Ax+%222+lfe%22 I also added info about MMR, we now have mpv player that support MMR and polinomial reshaping and also we have CRI stuff apparently defined in hevc spec. Valery Zapolodov ( talk) 15:12, 27 January 2022 (UTC)